EP17:Deep Into - The Anxious Generation
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Hey everyone and welcome back to the Deep Life. Today we are gonna be diving into Jonathan Haidt's "The Anxious Generation." Ooh, interesting. So this book, it kind of throws out this provocative question. What if we're raising our kids on a digital Mars, a world full of all these unseen risks?

It's a thought-provoking context. Yeah, it really gets you thinking, huh? Yeah, and to help us navigate this digital Mars, we're going to be going through excerpts from the book itself, and I have our expert here with us today. Hi. To help us break down Haidt's core arguments about why this all matters, not just for those of us who are parents, but for like

Everyone, really. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this book, it really makes us step back and think about like the consequences of our actions, even when we have the best intentions, you know? Right, exactly. So let's kind of zoom out for a second. What would you say is like the central problem that hates laying out in The Anxious Generation? Well, he points to this like really striking trend, a sharp increase in anxiety and depression among teens.

Especially girls, actually. And it's all starting around the early 2010s. Okay, so around that time period. Yeah, and you know, it'd be easy to just blame everything on like global events. Right, right. All the craziness happening in the world. But the timing, it really points to something else being at play, something deeper. Okay, I'm listening. Haight calls it the phone-based childhood. Phone-based childhood. Hmm. That's an interesting term. But I gotta ask, isn't it a bit of a stretch...

to link smartphones to something as complex as like anxiety? That's a fair question. But honestly, Haight makes a pretty compelling argument. He contrasts the childhoods of like past generations. Think about it. Running around, free play, exploring, you know, taking risks, maybe coming home with a few bumps and breezes along the way. Oh, yeah. I totally remember those days. Building forts, just running around with friends until it got dark.

- Good times. - Exactly. And those experiences, they weren't just fun and games. They were crucial for developing resilience, social skills, learning how to cope with things. - Yeah. - But today,

Kids are growing up with what hate calls experience blockers. Experience blockers. OK. Yeah. Things like, you know, overprotective parenting and, of course, smartphones. And these things, they're really limiting the opportunities for that kind of, you know, free range play. So let me get this straight. You're saying that by trying to protect kids from from every little risk.

we could actually be making them more vulnerable in the long run. That's the core of Haight's argument. Yeah, he brings up this concept of antifragility. Antifragility, okay. Basically, it means that things, sexually kids, need to be challenged. They need some stress to grow stronger. It's like a muscle. If you never lift weights, it's going to stay weak. But put it under some stress, it adapts, it gets stronger.

Oh, okay. I see the connection. So you're saying by shielding kids from all these challenges, it's like we're keeping those muscles weak. They don't have a chance to develop that resilience. Precisely. And this kind of leads us to another point Haight makes. It's about...

lack of traditional rites of passage in our modern world. Oh, okay. In the past, cultures had these ceremonies, challenges, milestones to mark that transition from childhood to adulthood. Right, like those coming-of-age rituals you see in documentaries, right, where they have to prove their strength or bravery or something like that. Yeah, exactly. And the specifics might be different, but the underlying idea is the same. These rituals, they provided a roadmap that gave kids a sense of accomplishment, a way to

prove they were ready for what's next. It's like a way to level up in real life. Haight's argument is that we've lost a lot of those traditional milestones and it's left a lot of young people feeling kind of stuck, like they're in this in-between zone, not quite a child, not quite an adult. Yeah, I can see how that would be confusing. I remember getting my driver's license felt like this

huge step towards independence. Like I was finally in control, you know, what could be some modern day equivalence to those rites of passage.

That's a great question. And HEAT really encourages us to think about that. Maybe it's about managing your own finances or launching, you know, a small online business, organizing a community event, maybe even taking on a challenging volunteer role. The key is to create those opportunities for young people to push themselves outside their comfort zones, test their limits and experience that sense of accomplishment.

Yeah, I like that. So we've talked about the rise in anxiety, the decline of unstructured play, and this lack of clear milestones for young people.

But isn't puberty just like a natural process, a biological thing? How does that fit into all of this? Haight reminds us that puberty isn't just about the physical changes. It's a time when the brain is going through a massive rewiring process. And he argues that too much screen time during this crucial phase, it can actually disrupt healthy brain development. Remember that concept of anti-fragility we talked about? Yeah, needing challenges to grow stronger. It applies here too. So are you saying that if teens...

are spending most of their time in like the curated world of social media, they're missing out on those real world experiences that help them build resilience.

those coping skills. Precisely. It's like they're trying to build a house, but they've never actually like touched a hammer or a saw. They might have the blueprint, but they lack that hands-on experience, the ability to adapt when things go wrong. And that, according to, that's a huge contributor to the anxiety we're seeing today. Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. This is all, this is all pretty heavy stuff. But before we get into like hate's proposed solutions, I'm curious about how this digital landscape works.

affects boys and girls differently? Because it seems kind of like a broad stroke to say all teens are having the same experience, right? Absolutely. While both genders are impacted, the ways that they experience this digital world are definitely distinct.

Hate goes into this in the book, and it's something we should, you know, unpack a bit. Okay. Yeah, let's see that. Let's start with girls. I've heard a lot about the negative effects of social media on young women, especially when it comes to, like, body image and social comparison. Is that what Haidt focuses on? He definitely addresses those issues, yeah. Especially in the context of, like, visually driven platform like Instagram. Imagine being constantly bombarded with these images of prostitution.

perfect bodies, perfect lives, day after day. It's easy to see how that could fuel insecurity, especially during a time when young people are already figuring out their own identity and self-worth. Yeah, that's pretty rough. But is it too simplistic to show girls are only affected by social comparison? Don't they also benefit from the connections and communities they build online? You're right. It's not all bad. There are definitely positives, and we'll talk about those too. But height brings up a specific kind of

online aggression that girls are particularly vulnerable to. He calls it relational aggression. Okay, I've heard that term before. Can you break it down for me? Like, what does that actually look like in the digital world?

Think of it like the online equivalent of spreading rumors, social exclusion, you know, those subtle forms of bullying that can be really hard to pinpoint. I see. Like imagine a group chat where one girl's being deliberately left out or ridiculed or think about how easily a mean comment or even like a strategically cropped photo can spread like wildfire online.

It's like a whole new battlefield for social dynamics and it just sounds so stressful. It is and that's not even mentioning the very real threat of online predators. Young girls, they're disproportionately targeted which forces them into this constant state of vigilance like they always have to be on guard. Wow, it's like adding another layer of armor to an already heavy load. So if girls are dealing with this whole web of social comparison, this relational aggression and online threats,

What are the challenges that boys are facing in this digital world? It's more nuanced than just video games and, you know, easy access to pornography, which is what some people might assume. Right. Haidt actually describes a kind of push-pull effect for boys. Okay, push-pull. I like that. Explain that a little more. So on one hand, they're being pushed away from the real world because of societal shifts. There's less emphasis on those traditional masculine roles.

more pressure to succeed academically, and just this general sense of uncertainty about their place in the world. They're feeling kind of law-handed, direct-on-less. Yeah, exactly. And at the same time, they're being pulled into the virtual world where they can find a sense of belonging, achievement, and escape.

Video games, for example, they offer clear goals, instant feedback, a sense of mastery that can be super appealing, especially when the real world feels confusing or overwhelming. - So wait, are you saying video games are inherently bad? 'Cause I know plenty of adults who love gaming and it doesn't seem to be hurting their lives. - It's not about demonizing video games or any specific technology. It's about balance. Hate's concern is that for some boys, that virtual world becomes like a replacement for real world engagement.

It can lead to this kind of failure to launch. Okay, so it's not the tech itself. It's how it's being used and whether it becomes like a crutch or an escape from those challenges of growing up.

What about the issue of pornography that always seems to come up when people talk about boys in the Internet? Hat tackles that topic, too. He acknowledges that easy access to pornography can create this like distorted view of relationships and sexuality, which can hinder the development of, you know, healthy intimacy and connection. It's like it sets up these unrealistic expectations and disconnects them from the complexities of real life relationships. Exactly. And just like with girls, this lack of engagement with the real world, it has consequences.

Hat points to a decline in risk-taking among boys. Now, that might sound good on the surface, but it actually can hold them back from learning and growing. Remember anti-fragility. It's about embracing challenges, not shying away from them. So both boys and girls are facing their own unique challenges in this digital world.

Even if those specific issues might look different at first glance. That's a great way to put it. And what Kai is saying is this isn't just a parenting issue or even just an education issue. It's a societal issue. It needs a collective response. Welcome back to the deep dive. So in the first part, we really dug into the problem, right? This whole idea of the phone based childhood and how it's linked to this this surge in anxiety among young people.

Now I'm really interested to hear about like, OK, what can we actually do about it? What are some of the solutions that Haught proposes? Well, he starts by saying that, you know, this isn't just about individual choices. It's got to be bigger than that. We need collective action to really tackle this issue. He compares it to like air pollution. One person driving an electric car won't solve the problem. Right. But if enough people do, we all breathe a little easier.

Okay. Yeah, I like that analogy. So instead of just focusing on what individual parents or teachers can do, we need to think more systematically, more big picture, right? Exactly.

Exactly. And hate suggests this kind of multi-pronged approach. For example, schools could implement mindfulness programs, give kids those tools to manage stress and anxiety. And, you know, at a policy level, we could push for mental health resources to be more accessible and affordable for families. So changes at the policy level are key.

But what about within our communities? Can we do anything more locally to create a healthier environment for kids? Oh, absolutely. Think about the design of our public spaces. Are they actually kid friendly? Do they encourage free play, social interaction? Imagine more communities with like

parks, playgrounds, maybe even designated areas for things like skateboarding or bike riding, these kind of spaces. They encourage kids to get outdoors, move their bodies, interact face to face, all those things that are so important for their well-being. Right. It's about like setting the stage for them to thrive, not just telling them to put down their phones. But let's be real. Those changes, they take time, effort, resources. Are there any examples of like communities that have actually implemented these solutions and seen positive results?

There are quite a few inspiring examples, actually. Some communities have implemented like phone-free parks or these adventure playgrounds where kids are encouraged to build, explore, take risks. Interesting. Some places have focused on creating community gardens or even organ farms where kids can learn about nature, work together, contribute to something bigger than themselves. That's really cool. It's encouraging to know that those kinds of changes are possible.

But while we're working on those bigger, like systemic solutions, what can individuals do to make a difference? I'm thinking about like parents, teachers, even young people themselves. Are they are there actionable steps they can take? Haight's a big believer in empowering individuals to to take action. He says we're not powerless in the face of this challenge. We can break this cycle of phone dependence and create a healthier environment step by step. OK, I love that message. It's about empowerment. But I'm still curious about how

Like, the specifics. What does that actually look like in practice? So for parents, he recommends connecting with organizations like Let Grow and Fair Play.

They advocate for a more balanced, less fear-driven approach to raising kids. Remember those experience blockers we talked about? Yeah. These groups are working to kind of dismantle those barriers and give kids back some of that freedom and autonomy they need. So it's about shifting away from that helicopter parent mentality and trusting kids to handle some challenges on their own. Exactly. And it's not about being reckless. It's about giving them space to learn, to grow, to develop resilience. Hate also really escalates

emphasizes the power of conversation. Talk to other parents. Share your concerns, your strategies, your hopes for your kids. You're not alone in this. That's such a good point.

Parenting can feel so isolating sometimes, but it doesn't have to be. Connecting with others who share your values, building that support system, it can make a huge difference. What about teachers? What can they do to create that healthier school environment? Kate Has some strong opinions about schools. He's a big advocate for phone-free schools.

You know, remove the phones from the classroom. Let kids focus on learning, on interacting with each other, on real world experiences. Yeah, I get that. It's hard enough to concentrate as it is with all the distractions these days, let alone having that smartphone constantly buzzing in your pocket. But isn't that a tough sell? I feel like a lot of parents, even students, would resist that, giving up their phones completely during school. It's definitely a challenge. It requires a shift in thinking. But there are plenty of schools that have implemented those phone-free policies.

And the results, they speak for themselves. Not only do students focus better, perform better academically, but there's also this noticeable improvement in their social interaction and then their overall well-being. So it's not just about eliminating distractions. It's about fostering a more connected, more engaged learning environment.

Are there other changes that schools could implement to support kids' mental health and well-being? Hitt's a big advocate for bringing back free play. He believes kids are starved for that unstructured time to explore, to create, to just be kids. Remember those moments in your own childhood, those moments of spontaneous play. That's where you learned to problem solve, to negotiate, to use your imaginations.

I totally agree. We've gotten so obsessed with structured activities and academic achievement that we've forgotten the importance of just letting kids be kids. And it doesn't need to be complicated. Longer recess periods, outdoor play areas, even just encouraging kids to come up with their own games and activities. Yeah, that's awesome. So we've talked about parents, teachers, communities. What about the young people themselves? Do they have any agency in this or are they just kind of passive victims of the digital age? Hate believes Gen Z has a

powerful voice in this conversation. They're the ones living it every day and they have a right to demand better. He encourages them to join youth-led advocacy groups like Design It For Us. Okay, I like that. Tell me more about Design It For Us. What are they all about? They're pushing tech companies to design platforms that actually prioritize young people's well-being. That's a tall order. It is, but they're advocating for things like age-appropriate design,

better privacy controls, features that encourage healthy tech habits. Imagine social media platforms that limit the amount of time users can spend online or that actually encourage users to take breaks and do things offline. Those are great ideas. It's about using tech as a tool to support our well-being instead of letting it control us.

But it's easy to get overwhelmed by the scale of this whole problem. What would you say to listeners who might be feeling anxious, overwhelmed, even a little hopeless about all of this? What's the message of hope? The most important message is this. You're not alone. There are millions of people all over the world who are waking up to these challenges and who are committed to creating a healthier, more humane future.

By connecting with others, sharing our stories, taking action, we can make a difference. I love that. Even small actions, when you multiply them, they can create this wave of positive change. It's pretty amazing.

It is. And hate reminds us this isn't about miminizing technology. It's not about going back to some perfect past. It's about finding that balance, using technology in a way that supports our values and makes our lives better, not worse. That's a great point. So just to kind of recap, we've covered a lot in this episode.

deep dive into the anxious generation, right? We've explored the problem, the potential solutions, and I think most importantly, the power we all have to create positive change. Absolutely. And in the final part of our deep dive, we're going to get even more specific. We'll explore the actions that different groups, governments, tech companies, schools, and parents can take to actually address this crisis. I'm looking forward to that. It feels like we've laid the groundwork and now it's time to get into the nitty gritty of how we can actually make a difference.

Welcome back to the Deep Dive. So we've spent the last two parts, you know, really exploring this alarming rise in anxiety among young people and how it all connects back to this idea of the phone-based childhood. But

But we don't want to leave you hanging with just the problems, right? Right, exactly. Jonathan Haidt in The Extras Generation, he actually offers some pretty concrete solutions. And that's what we're going to be unpacking in this final part of our deep dive. Yeah, it's time to move from like diagnosing the problem to actually taking action. And Haidt, he starts by outlining specific steps that different groups can take. And the first one might surprise you.

Governments. Governments. Really, I usually associate them with like slow moving bureaucracy, not exactly known for being, you know, nimble problem solvers. How does Haight see them fitting into all of this? He makes a really good point. He says that protecting children, it's like a core responsibility of any government. And that includes protecting them from the potential harms of technology. OK. Think about it like.

food safety regulations or car seat laws. Those didn't just happen overnight. It took collective action. It took government intervention to create those safety nets. OK, yeah, I see the parallel. So is he talking about like stricter privacy laws for tech companies or maybe age restrictions on social media? Exactly. He points to the UK's age appropriate design code as a good example. It requires companies to design their services with children's best interests at the forefront.

So things like, you know, privacy settings should be set to the highest level by default, not something you have to like dig around to find. And parental controls should be clear and easy to use. Yeah, that just makes sense. Is anything like that happening in the U.S.? California has a similar law and some other states are starting to follow suit. But Haidt argues that we need federal action in the U.S. to make those regulations, you know, consistent across the board and actually enforceable. Right.

Right. Because a patchwork of state laws, it's not going to be as effective as a nationwide approach. But honestly, age verification online, it feels like this constant game of whack-a-mole, you know? Yeah. Kids can easily lie about their age. That's true. And Haidt acknowledges that. He suggests looking into more robust methods, like maybe using blockchain technology or even biometrics to verify age without requiring users to share, you know, sensitive personal information. Wow. That's good. Pretty high tech.

But the idea is it's pretty interesting. So governments, they could play a role in regulating the tech industry and setting those age appropriate guidelines. But what about the tech companies themselves? I mean, what's their responsibility in all of this? He doesn't let them off the hook. He argues that tech companies, they need to step up and take responsibility for the design of their platform.

platforms and how those designs actually impact young users. Remember when we talked about experience blockers? Yeah. Well, some of them are baked right into the technology itself. Wait, what do you mean by that? Are you saying that these companies are like intentionally designing things to be addictive? Haight actually cites the work of Tristan Harris. He's a former Google ethicist. And Harris argues that those features, we all know, the infinite troll, the autoplay, those little gamified streaks you see on apps.

They're not accidents. They're intentionally designed to exploit, you know, vulnerabilities in our psychology to keep us hooked and coming back for more.

It's like we're playing a game that's rigged against us. You know, it's like we're up against these powerful algorithms, these teams of engineers whose whole job is to keep us engaged, even if it's not in our best interest. And that's the problem. Haidt believes that tech companies, they have to shift their focus from maximizing user engagement to actually prioritizing user well-being. OK, but that sounds like a pretty big shift. How realistic is it to expect these companies to...

Like actually put our well-being ahead of their profits. That's how government regulation can come into play. Haidt argues that regulations can actually create incentives for tech companies to design more ethically. If they know they'll face consequences for creating, you know, addictive or harmful platforms, they'll be more likely to change their approach. It's not about, you know, shutting down innovation. It's about setting some boundaries and creating a level playing field.

So it's like a combination of government pressure and a shift in corporate responsibility. That's a pretty tall order. It is a challenge, but Haight is optimistic. He reminds us that we've faced similar challenges before. Think about the tobacco industry. It took decades of activism, research, public pressure, but eventually they were held accountable. Right. Change doesn't happen overnight.

But it is possible, especially when you know, we work together exactly and while we're waiting for those bigger changes to happen There's a lot we can do at a local level hate emphasizes that schools and parents They also play a crucial role in creating a healthier environment for kids. Okay, let's talk about schools first We've touched on this a little bit already. But what specific changes does he recommend? He's a strong advocate for those phone free schools like we discussed and

But it's not just about banning phones. It's about rethinking the whole school environment. He argues that schools need to prioritize free play, recess, giving kids more of that unstructured time to, you know, explore, create, socialize. It's amazing how something as simple as like unstructured play could be so powerful.

When I think back to my own childhood, those were the times I felt like the most alive, the most engaged with the world. Exactly. And it doesn't need fancy equipment or expensive programs. It's about giving kids the space and the freedom to just be kids.

- So schools, they have a big role to play. What about parents? What advice does Hyde have for creating a healthier environment at home? - He encourages parents to take a more balanced approach. It's not about shielding kids from every risk out there, but it's about giving them the tools, the experiences they need to navigate the world successfully. - So it's more about empowering them than just protecting them. - Exactly. He talks about setting boundaries around screen time, creating those tech-free zones at home,

And really importantly, modeling those healthy tech habits ourselves. It's about leading by example, you know, creating a family culture that prioritizes well-being and connection. Those are great ideas, but I think a lot of parents struggle with this stuff.

It's hard to set boundaries when, you know, all your kids' friends are constantly online. It can feel like you're fighting a losing battle. He gets it. It's tough. And he really emphasizes the importance of connecting with other like-minded parents. You're not alone in this. There are tons of parents out there who are, you know, struggling with these same issues and looking for ways to raise healthy, well-adjusted kids in this digital age. It really does take a village, doesn't it? And it's not just about

protecting them from the negative impacts of technology. It's also about harnessing the power of technology for good. Absolutely. HATE encourages parents to check out educational apps, online learning platforms, digital tools that can actually enhance creativity, learning, social connection. It's about

being mindful and intentional about our technology use as individuals and as a society. That's a great point. So as we wrap up this deep dive into the anxious generation, what's the one key takeaway you hope our listeners walk away with? That we have the power to shape the future. It's easy to feel overwhelmed by all the challenges, you know, but we're not powerless. By understanding the issues, connecting with others, taking action, we can create a world where technology actually serves humanity, not the other way around. That's

That's a really powerful message. We've covered a lot of ground in this deep dive. We explored the problem. We talked about potential solutions. And most importantly, the power we each have to create positive change. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive. We'll catch you next time on the deep dive. 7-8 time.