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Welcome to The Referral with me, Dr. Curran. I'm a surgeon in the NHS, and if you're interested in improving your health or you just love learning about science or medicine and all the other curious things about the human body, this is the podcast for you. Now, the last few years in the world has been a very strange place with lots of things going on, and I really wanted to take this episode
to talk about mental resilience. And who better to talk about mental strength than the queen of that, Marnie Swindles. She is a professional boxer. She's a fully qualified solicitor. She owns a boxing gym and she won this year's Apprentice and £250,000. And she just opened up her own community boxing gym. So I'm very excited to chat to her. The first time I fought was in a working man's club.
And the look on some of the guys' faces, all these sort of, you know, pub geezers, see
seeing a woman in the ring, their face was a picture. And a bit later, I'll be answering your questions on CrowdScience. Now, don't forget, if you want to submit your own questions that I answer on this show, get in touch via thereferralpod.com. To hear even more in-depth explanations into your health curiosities, you can subscribe to The Referral Plus and you get ad-free listening to this episode and all the others in this feed. Just visit The Referral Show page on Apple Podcasts and hit the try-free button to listen to your free trial today.
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Boxer, entrepreneur, boxing gym owner, winner of The Apprentice, Marnie Swindles. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Honoured to be here today. Tell me more about your boxing journey. I mean, that's obviously a passion of yours. Why did you get into boxing and what did it give you? It felt like...
natural thing for me to want to do. Growing up, I was always quite aggressive, bit of a tomboy, bit fiery and never athletic, never very interested in sports. In fact, I was the netball team's B
B teams reserve. That's how detached I was from sports and fitness. But something about boxing called me. And when I saw a leaflet in school advertising that the local gym was opening up, I walked through the doors. I was very much given the spiel of, you know, boxing's for boys, you know, you're going to have to train like us if you want to keep up, all the rest of it. And it didn't faze me. And since that moment, I have been in love with it in many different capacities as a boxer myself.
as a coach, as you said, now a gym owner. And it has really been blood in, blood out. I think I'll be in this sport forever. Most people think when you get into a sport, it's all about the physical. But I remember when I was in school...
And just from a young age, my dad's a big cricket fan. I'm a big cricket fan. And I was like really into cricket, like all the equipment, going to like training sessions, you know, those kind of Saturday mornings, I'd go and practice in the nets with my dad from the age of like seven onwards.
And I felt more from the physical activity. It just gave me some sort of routine and structure in my life. And that carries over to other facets of your life. You carry over that passion, drive, organization and willpower to other assets of your life. And do you feel that boxing has given you that structure in other aspects?
Absolutely. I mean, when you think about sports and, you know, probably from your perspective as a doctor, you think a lot from the physical perspective and the physicality of sport, what it does for fitness, what it does for weight loss, muscle, all the rest of it. But I find for myself personally and for most people that I interact with in sports, the biggest impact is fitness.
is on their mentality, on their change of structure, on the change of routine, what it does for them, the connections it gives them. In fact, the slogan for Bronx is Beyond Boxing because I wanted it to represent a place that whilst being within the fitness sector and that industry, it actually does so much more for people. And whenever I was talking about it, I kept finding myself saying, you know, we're a gym, but we're going beyond boxing. I want it to be beyond boxing, more than boxing.
And that really is testament to exactly what gyms are. They're these spaces where people come together and friendships are made. Frankly speaking, I've been in boxing a long time and there's a lot of people who've been coming to the gym for years. They haven't got any fitter. Their boxing hasn't got any better. Really?
And they're coming for a different reason. And I think if we can really drill into that, I spoke about it on the show. This is about feelings, not fitness. If we can drill into that, I think the sports industry opens up to a lot more people. And actually then through that, the default result is that they get fitter.
you know, so I think the gym should stop targeting members from a physical perspective and start targeting people for what it can do for their mental health and everything else. I think that's the issue with my profession as a doctor as well. We have all these rigid metrics that we measure people's life by, you know, your weight, your BMI, you know, all of these very rigid categories that we just pop
pop people into. But then we miss the overall holistic view. Actually, you're OK, you look overweight, but actually you're in the gym four times a week and you're strong and you're flexible and you're pain free and you feel good mentally and physically. And it's interesting you say about, you know, this these people coming to boxing gyms for years and not getting better at boxing. One of my best friends over the last two
two years, he's really got into Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And he says himself, he's not really improved. But he goes to these Brazilian jiu-jitsu gyms. And what's funny is that he'll see, I don't know, someone who's like a multimillionaire coming in and someone who's a binman, for example, right? And the binman is like a really top level BJJ athlete. And that multimillionaire...
kind of has to listen and wants to listen and take advice from this guy. And it's like you bring people from all aspects of life. And it's just it's a level playing field when you're in the gym and you just interact with anyone and everything. Oh, honestly, I love it. I can't get enough of exactly what you're saying there. That's
exactly what Bronx represents. That's exactly what gyms represent, you know, the dynamics in there, the networking of different people that normally would never come into contact. And yet here they are sharing a bag. And I think that, you know, goes a long way in teaching a much wider lesson of not judging people by what they do and actually getting to know them. Because first and foremost in the gym, you see people at their rawest years.
you see their character. I often say that gyms are a good place to find a romantic partner because you see them at their worst. You see their character. Do they quit when things get hard? Do they persist? Do they give up? Do they have the patience to listen and learn the skill? And that's,
That is what it's about. It's about that interconnecting of people from all corners of the community coming together, as you said, level playing field. And even from my own experience, you know, when I left university, I did history and politics at uni and I came out thinking, why on earth did I do that? I have no idea what I want to do with my life. Completely lost. And I actually was sharing a bag with a woman in the gym.
venting away saying, "I don't know what I'm doing with my life." And she said, "I'm a criminal defense barrister. Why don't you come and shadow me?" Oh, wow. And I did. I went and shadowed her. Fell in love with law. Within the next week, signed up to go to law school, qualified as a barrister, was called to the bar in 2018. Had that interaction not happened within a boxing gym in southeast London,
I wouldn't have half the skills that I have today, the confidence to speak that I have today. And it all came from that one moment. I don't think there's a time in place in life I would have been interacting with a barrister other than there. Yeah. So it's bringing everyone from all walks of life together. So Marnie, you said when you first stepped into the boxing gym when you were in school and, you know, you were sort of given this impression that it's a boys only sport. And I
I was shocked to find out that it was only in 2012 that boxing was allowed to be in the Olympics as a category, as a sport for women. That's quite late on in our history of boxing to allow women to have an Olympic boxing sport. When you look at where women's boxing is now, it's crazy to think that in 2012 it was
It wasn't in the Olympics. And I suppose before that, we never even thought about it. I started boxing before that. So just before 2012, maybe 2010, 2011. So when I did first step in the boxing gym, it was like a ghost had walked in there. And it wasn't even so much I was giving the impression it was for boys. I was told...
vehemently, this is a boys sport and if you are going to even think about training with us, you need to act like one of the boys. Which included being subject to lots of locker room chat and the rest of it. Boxing just wasn't equipped for women, even down to when I came to London and I would say I joined my first proper boxing club. There were no facilities for female toilets, female changing. It was just a circus act. The first time I fought was in a working man's club.
And the look on some of the guys' faces, all these sort of, you know, pub geezers seeing a woman in the ring, their face was a picture. But I think it made a positive impression. It wasn't a, you shouldn't be in the ring. It was a, wow, she did good in the ring. And that perception has slowly changed from, she's good for a girl to...
That person's a good boxer. Yeah. You know, and I think that's where women's boxing is at now in terms of professional boxing. Women are having their own full cards. Yeah. And almost this word of women's boxing, we're at a point where I think it could be dropped. I think we could just go for boxing. Yeah. And when we get to that point, that will be the real symbol that we have transcended in
this closed category of women's boxing to just this is boxing. So, you know, significant change in the last decade, but a long way still to go. Yes, absolutely. Now, obviously, you've been boxing for a number of years. How have you had any injuries yourself?
I have. You probably can't tell, but I can tell because it's my nose. But a guy dropped a very big right hand on my nose and did fracture it. And I had a little bend and a little bump. Now it very much bothers me. But my best one is actually this one. Can you see the scar on my arm? Yeah, yeah. What was that from? That I broke over.
a lady's head. We were sparring. We were sparring. I threw a big right hook and she just stayed very still and her hands were, her guard was up and it was almost like hitting a pole. So as it landed, the arm went sideways. I didn't realize I broke it. I thought, you know, sometimes where you bang your elbow and you get sort of a fuzzy feeling. That's what it felt like. I'd never broken anything before. So
It was my first time and I came back to the corner and I said, oh, you know, I think my glove's a bit funny. So as he lifted the glove up,
I could actually feel the bones inside scrape past each other and move. Still not realising I'd broke it at this point, just felt a lot of pain, thought it would go away. Came back to the centre of the ring to do the next round and as the bell went, I'm sort of one arm is just here and despite my best efforts to try and lift my shoulder, this bottom half of my arm just would not lift. They're going, get your hands up Marnie, get your hands up. I'm trying.
Oh my God. And then in true boxing gym fashion, after that round had ended, they then took it off, realised it was swelling immediately, not looking too good, and they wrapped it, makeshift sling in boxing wrap. So we held it up here. We then dropped everyone else from the gym off home first and then made our way to the hospital. So nothing urgent. Oh my God. Pain is not something that's quickly responded to in a boxing gym. That almost fight or flight feeling
fear response sometimes where the adrenaline's high. You may not feel the pain and the injuries at the time because your heart rate and excitement and stress levels are through the roof. So all these feelings are attenuated. But physical injuries are one thing in terms of the stuff you can see, broken bones and things like that. But what about injuries to your head?
You'll get knocks to the chin, the cheek, the temple. Have you had those and have they had any effects on you? I have had flashes. So I've never been concussed, never got to that point. But I've had, and most people have had, when you take a big shot, you sort of get a flash. And for the most smallest of split seconds...
You just lose where you are for a second and then immediately come back round. I've had that. But, you know, I think that's what makes boxing so juicy. It is. Everything you're saying there, it was exciting me. You know, that sense of fight or flight or adrenaline and danger. And it's a real test of character. Like when those moments come and you are hit, how do you respond? And it just says so much about...
who you are. And I think that might have been, and I'm having a revelation in this moment, because I'm realizing that might have been one of the things that drew me to boxing is the idea of, I've always wanted to prove points to myself. If ever I was scared to do something, I would act
actively go out of my way to confront it, to prove that I could do it. Everybody is terrified of going in a boxing ring, no matter who they are. It's a scary thing. When you confront that and you get in there and you do it, it's so satisfying. There's that element of danger which attracts people.
Has that element specifically with regards to head injuries ever made you think, hang on, I love boxing and I will do it, but I don't want to get punched in the face anymore? Yes. Not so much for me, but for people I've coached. So if there's been people who, you know, I did white collar promotions for a while. And one of the things that was constantly in the back of my mind is it's up to me if I want to put myself in that position. But when people are coming to me and asking my opinion of,
They're, you know, maybe 46. Could they have a go at boxing? They really want to do it. But be mindful of, you know, what situation would I be putting you in
by having a fight. Are you really fit enough to do this? And we get medical tests done, but there's always that moral compass inside of me that says, is this the safest thing for this person? Should they be doing it? And it's a balance. It's a balance between the risks people are prepared to take. And I think the risk, although looking at boxing from an outside perspective, it looks very dangerous and it looks very scary, but there's a real art to it. There's a real art to taking impact.
in a certain way. There's an art to holding your head in a certain way that reduces that impact. So from the outside looking in, it can look very, very dangerous. But once you're in it, I think it feels a lot less. It's a calculated risk. And for me personally, when I was boxing, I always looked at the balance of there's many ways in which I could sustain an injury. They could happen to me anyway. So
boxing felt like it did more good than it did the risk of bad if that makes it and I think that's an important point to make in general because the mums the mums do always get in the way yeah they do we have a lot of young people whose mums say you know oh it's dangerous it's dangerous and
But when you look at the impact of boxing on young people in a wider sense, the fact that it gets them out of bad situations, the fact that it teaches them to control their temper, it's a great controlled outlet for aggression, which most young people naturally have aggression and pent up angst. When you look at all the ways in which it builds respect, teaches discipline, the balance of that is that they get in the ring first.
And that they may or may not take shots in a very controlled, restricted, limited way. So when you look at it on balance, I think boxing actually is a much safer sport than people would first assume. And boxing is one of many strings to your bow, right?
You've obviously just opened up a brand new community gym and all of the opportunities and meetings and events you're having with your various ventures. It's a lot. How do you mentally stay resilient and on track with so many things?
It's hard. There is a certain life that I want for myself. And I know that there will be no inheritance. There will be no other possible way that I can achieve that life other than do the things that I need to do now. And if that means my life is...
in absolute chaos and it is hell right now, then so be it. If I have to do 16 hour days, so be it. Because I really believe that I can't be working as hard as I am now for there to be no gain at the end. I actually love the Winston Churchill quote,
if you're going through hell, keep going. I think that really symbolizes where I'm at right now. It is a lot of pressure. Paralyzing in some ways, and I don't know about you, and it may be something that you can relate to, but the moments I have in the morning when maybe I'm in the shower and I know once I step out of that shower, you know, once the kind of heat goes away,
I have to start the day and it's that moment in the shower where I want it to last forever. And I'm just there for an extra five minutes thinking, I don't want to step out because I need to start my day. But then eventually you do need to start the day and you do need to face, you know, reality. But I would 100% take that.
having to make those difficult decisions on my own business than working for someone else. So prior to this, I was working in court every day and that was a lot of pressure. It was a lot of pressure every single day to appear in court, go before a judge, make sure I knew everything, do justice by the case. And that was such a lot of pressure. So even now I have this pressure, it's my pressure. And I think it is really, really important. I'm a huge advocate for people finding
a job that they love or following a path that they love because life is so short and it's so easy to, as you say, we wake up every day. And should we really, in this short space of time we have on earth, be spending our days thinking
anxious of what's to come like every single day. If you face that feeling, your whole life is just one big thing you're scared to face, you know? It's often quoted about the island of Okinawa where the Okinawans live. They've got a high proportion of people who are centenarians who are living to 100 and beyond. And obviously, if you look at these populations around the world and, you know, they've been kind of dubbed the blue zones, they're
where a lot of the reasons they live longer is because of dietary factors. They have high proportions of plant-based foods and fiber. They're very active and they're surrounded by a lot of social company, even to their old age. And this helps them live longer. They're not just lifting weights and doing all of these things. And they have quite a lifestyle without modern day stress as usually. But in the Okinawans, they have this
called Ikigai, which is kind of your reason to live or your purpose in your life. And I found that
for many years ago, like during the pandemic, I sort of felt I didn't have this purpose or ikigai. And why was I going to work in the mornings? I wasn't enjoying work that much. And over the last couple of years, I've been trying to think about what is my reason to wake up. And since doing more stuff on social media and educating, I enjoy that. And even though I'm not doing that every day, I'm still doing work every day. It
It's sort of given me a renewed passion to know right now anyway, my purpose is to educate, have fun, you know, look after myself. And do you find that you have or have found something in your life every day that is your drive? Even if it's a shitty day, it's raining outside, you've got a lot of stuff to do. What is your ikigai? What's your purpose? My purpose, my ultimate purpose is refinement.
freedom is to to as i said i have this vision of a life i want to live and because we live in this world that that vision requires money i want the freedom to wake up every day and not have and have choice not have to be somewhere and even a step away from working for someone in law to working for myself whilst there is pressure every day is my own and i am the boss of
of my own day each day and I can work it out how I want to work it out. And the more you put in, the more you get out when you work for yourself. So my purpose is to do a good job of what I'm doing now for the ultimate, greater, bigger purpose, which is to have a life I really dreamed of. And I think people give up on dreams so quickly and I get it. Life gets in the way. Rent needs to be paid. Food needs to be bought. I get it.
But it's about finding a pathway that leads you from where you are now to what really is that purpose. So my vision, I'll let you in on my vision. Yeah, please do. It is a small house somewhere, maybe on a Greek island, no pressure. I don't want fancy clothes. I don't want fancy cars. I want peace. I want freedom. I want that thing that I never saw my parents have, which is money issues. What are we going to do about this? How are we paying for this?
And that absorbs your entire life. And this is what I'm saying. We're on earth for maybe 80 years and every day is consumed by this fear and panic of each day. I want something bigger. I want something, something that I can look back on and be really, really proud of. Money is just the ticket that makes the world go round. That allows you to trade that in for freedom, for choice. At some point, if you're never, never happy with what you have, your plot of land is,
and enjoy that, and you're always looking forward to the next goal, rather than enjoying that moment you've worked so hard for, there will never be any end to your hunger for more and more and more. And that's pretty depressing if you think about it. That's something that I've had conversations about. And that's a genuine fear for me, that I'll never reach a point of satisfaction that I'll be happy.
I can't tell you how much I wanted this gym. I would honestly be in tears every day that why isn't the lease signed yet? Why, why even the building works? Why, why is this not happening? And now we're here and,
And I actually said when it all happened, I said, this feels a bit like an anti-climax. Like this is everything I wanted and I've got it. And now I'm a bit like, well, this is good, but what's next? And that's where that toxicity comes in. Like you said, it's just more, more. It's not greed. It's a never ending pit of greed.
Of hunger. And sometimes for me, it's more the challenge. It's more doing the job and saying, I did that. It's the chase. Yeah, I did that. But it is crazy because when I think about my life, you know, I come from a caravan with my mum and my dad and my dog. Yeah.
We lived in their very simple life. You know, we'd eat outside. I'd go fishing with my dad. We'd do car boots markets on a Sunday. That was the income. It was very simple. And that, when I think back to those moments, they're some of the happiest in my life. And we had nothing, really had nothing.
But we had each other. It was simple, straightforward. I'm ultimately doing all this to get back to that feeling. We also alluded to the fact that money does make the world go round. So whilst we might, you know, idealize and put that lifestyle, you know, on a pedestal with nostalgia, the reality is, I mean, I came to the UK when I was five years old with my parents.
You know, I can look back as well, similarly at my time, and I'm thinking, oh, it was so great. But actually, if we really look at our times in our younger selves, there were probably problems then that maybe we didn't have enough money to do X, Y, and Z, and maybe a bit more would have gone a certain way. I mean, I don't know how you felt. I mean, your upbringing, do you think a lot of that and the resilience you had to have, presumably at that stage, led to your amputation?
ambitious personality well I think that's that's the the golden formula again it's choice yeah it's having the money to have that life but then if you want to go on a yacht for the day you've got the money to do that it's the choice um and like you said I romanticized their moments back then and it's easy to remember those like colorful moments where we were all together and
but easily forget the letters and the bills. And my mum was panicked straight after my dad died. My mum had no idea what she was going to do next. And that's where money would have saved the day. Because everyone says money doesn't buy happiness, but I really do believe that that is a...
That it does. It does because it buys freedom and it buys choice. In terms of whether that upbringing made me ambitious, absolutely. Absolutely. I think most successful people, when you look at the trajectory of their lives, they're running away from something. They're running away from an example they don't want.
My mum has always been so hard on me, getting an education so hard on me, being better than she was. My mum was a cleaner for most of my growing up, dinner lady. We did car boots markets, as I said, on Sundays. And that was the life. And she never wanted that for me. I distinctly remember a conversation where
between her and my granddad in front of me when my granddad said let her be a cleaner she's alright she can be like you and my mum very respectful of her own dad snapped at him said don't speak like that in front of her don't let her know that that's where the bar is it's limitless and my mum's
belief that I really, really could be anything. And I mean anything I want to be. If I wanted to be prime minister, I genuinely believe I could be it. And that comes from her saying that there isn't a limit. This life that we're living, you know, it's a glass ceiling, break through it, go for it. Well, you know, just speaking to now, I've just finished night shifts yesterday morning and I just felt
very low, but I feel slightly more uplifted off this conversation to go and do something. But you've got a question for me? I wanted to ask you because I never get the opportunity to talk to a doctor from a biological perspective.
What do you think of boxing as a sport, taking into account what it does for taking people out of bad situations, what it does for getting people on track? Do you think it's a good balance with the risk of conquering, the risk of head trauma? And how serious do you think that really is? Yeah, no, it's a good question. And I think we have to face the reality of all of these contact sports, whether it's in the NFL, rugby, footballers heading the ball, boxing, football,
fighting sports, combat sports, we're never going to get rid of them, you know, and we're never going to restrict them in such a way that it limits the impact of head injury, certainly in adults. I think it's up to every adult to make their own informed choice. And as we mentioned before, it's all about risk. If there's an ATR getting into boxing, who's maybe at higher risk of falls, already has kind of issues with, you know, brain issues, maybe it's not suitable for them to get into contact.
And I do think the benefit of sport and training anyway, rather than just the fighting, even training, like when I did, you know, weekly boxing sessions and just training the conditioning, it got me fitter. I felt better. I had a routine. I met people. I was more sociable. So arguably all of those things lead to someone's better quality of life, improving their own physical and mental health. And we know that has, you know, priceless benefits to someone, but
But I feel maybe the caveat and nuance with all these things would be in children. Children, if you want to be a professional boxer, chances are you are starting at the age of four or five or something like that, very young. Maybe your family is super into boxing and you're starting that young age. It's probably at that age where the brain is growing, it's pliable, the skull is softer.
and it's a developing brain, is maybe where the greatest risk of injury is. Imagine if like a seven-year-old is in, you know, another seven-year-old punching a seven-year-old may not be the greatest amount of force in the world as opposed to an adult punching another adult. But I guess, you know, that chronic lifelong trauma, and there is evidence to suggest that just one or two
concussion events in someone's career is enough to greatly increase their risk profile for neurodegeneration and increase the risk of Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, all these things. Well, Corinne, you've just successfully put everyone off boxing forever. No, one thing I would want to say on that though, with all of those risks, as you said, there can be risks. And I think it would be absolutely deluded of me to say that going into a boxing ring and
entering a fight or a sparring situation doesn't come with risks. Innately it does. You're taking impact. But I wouldn't, and I really want to go far to dispel the myth that that is the only thing that happens in boxing gyms. Yeah, of course. Because I think, and we face it a lot, even where I've been giving out leaflets and trying to tell people, it's a barbaric sport, people get injured. Before you even, certainly in Bronx, certainly in my gym, before you even think about contact,
we have so many options of just people recreationally hitting bags, taking part in the sport. And I'm always careful with these conversations that people don't fall
fall into this idea that that's the that's all boxing is it's just a fight there's so much discipline it's so much art so much respect so anyone who's listening you can come to Bronx not have any contact I swear no absolutely and I think that's the thing you're catering from everyone from the people who want to become professionals and go into the contact sport to you know the casual weekenders who just want to get fit we
have people in their 70s and I say people because I don't just mean one member I think there's about three people we have who are over 70 they come every week they hit the bags and just going back to that idea of lifestyle and motivation what it's doing for them and their body their mindset their sense of community I know there's a lot of isolation in older people
It's amazing. And I think boxing gyms, as much as risk needs to be acknowledged, I think they should be heralded as places for people coming together and making a big impact. There you go. So Marnie, thank you so much for joining me, talking openly about boxing, struggles that you face in balancing so many things and your continued success as well. And I really hope you enjoy a very well-deserved break in Greece. I need it. Thank you for having me.
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Now onto if it ducks like a quack, the bit where I debunk all those medical myths. And obviously today I want to delve more into the myths around boxing and physical contact sports. You need to lose consciousness to have a concussion. Now this is probably one of the most pervasive myths in any contact sport, whether it's the NFL, rugby, boxing, you don't actually need to black out and lose consciousness or faint to be diagnosed with a concussion. And that
That's why chronic brain injury can go undiagnosed for a number of years. Someone doesn't lose consciousness, but still sustains a pretty severe head injury, maybe doesn't even have any significant neurological changes, and they keep going back into the sport, keep sustaining these chronic low-grade injuries, and who knows, 10, 20, 30 years down the line, they may suffer with significant neurodegeneration. Boxing is violent and aggressive. I think when most people think about boxing, they think, you know,
Two pugilists in the ring trying to knock each other's head off. But the thing is, boxing is a sport. You can have a non-contact version where you just train like a boxer. You punch boxing bags and, you know, you do the cardiovascular conditioning and training to do with boxing without actually getting in the ring and fighting someone.
Although it is a fighting sport, you don't have to do the fighting bit. I remember when I was younger and at school, I wanted to learn some boxing and my mom didn't want me to spar or actually fight anyone and neither did I. But I did the training for the boxing, which can be, well, it is as good as boxing without getting your head punched because as we said before, getting head injuries, even one big head injury in your lifetime can affect your brain long-term.
And just before we go, we have a question on CrowdScience. And this week, we've got a voice note. Let's have a listen. Hi, my name's Laura. So my question for you is, basically, for the last 20 years of my life, I've suffered really horrifically with IBS symptoms.
uh d sometimes it's so bad that i can eat something and instantly feel like i need to rush to the toilet otherwise that's it i'm gonna crap myself why is that like surely it's not going through my system enough to even make me need to go to the toilet so yeah like why does that happen to me all the time thank you i look forward to your answer thank you
So yeah, thank you very much for that question. And I think it's a tricky one. So as we know, Laura has suggested she's got IBS D. Now there are lots of different subtypes with IBS, IBS C, IBS D, etc. And they're all slightly different in how they vary in terms of their symptoms. But overall, IBS is
it's classically characterized as someone who has alternating constipation or diarrhea. They may have abdominal pain and bloating and a lot of erratic gastrointestinal symptoms. Now, when someone eats something and immediately has to go to the toilet, that could signify a number of things. It
could be normal if there's a delay between eating and then needing a bowel motion. And that's partly due to the gastrocolic reflex. You eat something, you stretch the walls of your stomach, that produces a cascade of events where hormones are released, which then contracts your gut and you have a bowel motion. And part of having a healthy bowel routine in the morning is triggering the gastrocolic reflex by maybe having coffee in the morning or something to eat in the morning. But if someone has a bowel motion
essentially almost immediately within a few minutes after eating, that's not always a normal thing. It's not a physiological response. And again, could be a number of things. There may be some sort of intolerance to a food.
what you're eating may trigger you, whether it's a lactose intolerance and you immediately have low-grade inflammation of your intestines and you need to go to the toilet. So potentially something like that. And if you have IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, your gut may be more sensitive to certain foods, whether that's spicy food or foods with high fiber content. So there's a number of factors which could explain your condition here. And with IBS specifically,
I would definitely recommend seeing a gastroenterologist because IBS is
It's a very common condition and it needs a specialist to look into your symptoms and to see if there's anything that can be given either medication or lifestyle changes that can help to improve your symptoms. It may simply be a case of dietary adjustments and changing what you eat and when and how big a meal you have, which could change your symptoms. So Laura, thank you very much. That was a great question. And as I said, so many people have irritable bowel syndrome. So hopefully that helps somewhat. And
Just before we go, I want to tease this question from Sarah in our CrowdScience Extra episode. She's asking, is it possible to expedite your position and boost your position on a waiting list to see a doctor if you've got chronic conditions like endometriosis or adenomyosis? Is there a secret hack where you can climb up that waiting list ladder? Download CrowdScience Extra to find out. And if you're lurking there quietly listening to all of these questions,
you can get in touch as well. It's not too late. Just get in touch via the referralpod.com with your own question. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Referral. Yes, I am a real doctor, but it's important to know that if you need specific medical advice, you need to contact your own medical professional or doctor. And please remember, nothing on this show is intended to provide or replace specific medical advice that you'd otherwise receive from your own healthcare professional.
This has been a Sony Music production. Production management was Jen Mystery. Videos by Ryan O'Meara. Cameras, James Lloyd. Studio engineer, Ed Gill. Music by Josh Carter. Grace Lakewood and Hannes Albert were the producers. And Gaynor Marshall and Chris Skinner are the executive producers.