Swinging: What's it like to swap sexual partners?
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Hey ladies, before we get started, I wanted to ask you for a favour. We're making an episode about herpes, what it's like to live with the condition, how best to treat it and how to talk about it with sexual partners.

we would love to speak to somebody who contracted herpes in midlife or later. If that's you and you feel like sharing your story, please send an email or a voice note to ladies at abc.net.au. Sometimes this job takes me to unexpected places, like the time when I was waiting to cross a busy road in Sydney in broad daylight so that I could get into a swingers club for research purposes, obviously.

Look, I don't know about you, but swingers have always been slightly mystical creatures to me. Like... Like trolls under a bridge.

That doesn't work. Fairies? No. Or unicorns? All these mystical creatures come with a lot of baggage and sexual connotations, don't they? What I'm trying to say is that we know swingers exist, but who are they? What do they look like? What do they sound like? How do they fit all that sex around their day jobs and kids and grocery shopping?

And what actually happens at a sex party? Do I want to know? Who cleans up? And how do you negotiate the rules within a swinging relationship? This episode on swinging answers all those questions and a lot more. Like a lot of the episodes that come from our archives, I came out of this one thinking, yeah, I could do that. I could swing. So have a listen and see if it has that effect on you.

Watching my husband have sex with other women is a huge turn on for me. You come here and you just watch natural people having natural sex and you're like, that could work for me. I suppose a part of the enjoyment probably is also being that person that you kind of know that everyone wants. We have a gangbang night. It's called the three Cs. So it's cock, cock, cock. For every one female, you've got three guys.

Swinging is where you can have sex with other people but you maintain an emotional monogamy with your own partner. So I'm standing at the car and I'm changing into these black boots that were given to me a couple weeks ago. I've never worn them before. They're shiny and black and I've got this spiky heel on. Hi, it's me, Yumi. I'm just a little lady working on my day off trying to look like she's put some effort into what she's wearing to go and record at a swingers club.

Hey Kyla, my producer's here. I can see the doorway. We made it! Look, I put on my sexy boots. I was going to wear a shorter dress but I haven't waxed my legs. So I put a longer dress on. I'm pushing the button. Hey, it's you, me and Kyla. Okay.

Before today, if I heard the word swingers, my mind saw older people with greasy hair dressed in polyester and smelling like ashtrays. But are swingers horny, nicotine-stained relics? Or are they regular people like me and you? I'm Yumi Steins. Ladies, we need to talk about swinging. MUSIC

Unlike open relationships or polyamory, swingers mostly explore with others together as a couple. It's part of the deal and usually a scenario where if one goes, both go. It's hard to know how many people like to swing because, well, it's still kind of taboo.

People are definitely doing it, but it seems like not many are talking about it. Some dated stats from the Australian Study of Health and Relationships in 2013 show that only around two in 1,000 couples admitted to engaging in sexual activity with another couple. In the absence of current statistics, I can tell you that in making this episode, we discovered that there are enough swingers to support an ecosystem of sex clubs around the country. If

If someone is curious or ready to experiment a little, how do they go from googling 'swingers' and 'sex club' to actually walking through the door, removing their clothes and participating? So we'll go upstairs first and then I'll take you down. This is Jess. We're in her sex club in Sydney. And yes, sex club means a club whose sole purpose is to enable and facilitate the having of sex.

It's not a club that hosts metal nights on weekdays and does tacos every Tuesday or whatever. This is a place designed, custom built, ticketed and staffed solely for sex. Tonight Jess is hosting a swingers event. But there's a catch. It's a ladies only night and the girls, if they have a guy, have left them at home. Jess is taking us for a tour of the club before doors open.

So you've got like the shower space in there and then you've got like your beds, the canopies on them just to sort of give a bit of privacy but we do also provide all the safety needs so condoms, lubes, dams and clean sheets. Down here's the orgy room. Okay so at the far end of the room there's this huge bed it's like two really big beds pushed together could fit easily.

six or so people on there. Jess, how many people have been on there? Like, what's the maximum? I've seen probably 40 people trying to get onto that one bed. Yeah. People go a bit mental in here because I think it's so open that they're like, "OK, stacks on." In these clubs, there are rules. You can read them as you go through reception. They're laminated to the counter. And once the parties are underway, there are multiple ways to communicate consent.

There's a door policy where if the door is closed, we keep it closed. And then we also have a chain policy. So if you hold the chain and you have it hooked up to the door, it means people can watch but they can't enter. So you can leave the door open but people aren't welcome to just wander in? Yeah, correct. And if the door's shut, that means just do not enter? Do not enter, yeah. There's a lot to take in as we tour the sex club.

Like, how do people go from thinking it might be cool to have sex with someone other than their partner to actually crossing that threshold? I thought swinging was sort of, you know, keys in a bowl, eyes wide shut kind of scenario, which I wasn't obviously keen on. This is Sarah. She and her husband got into the swinging scene, or the lifestyle, as people who are in it like to call it, a decade ago.

I was, you know, just discussing with him different sexual preferences and, you know, being bisexual and what that meant for us in our relationship. And he actually said, well, why don't we check out a swingers club? There's that threshold. Sarah didn't know it existed until she was there crossing it. MUSIC

And did you jump in and have sex that first time?

I took quite a while to get into the swinger thing, pardon the pun, but it was probably about a year before we really started introducing other people and different aspects into our sex life. And we made a conscious decision to do that. We really wanted to make sure that it was something that both of us wanted to do. It

It was going to be an extension of our existing sex lives and really allow us to experiment with our own proclivities. You know, that was six months of just threesomes and foursomes and orgies and things like that with other women. And then it was about six months after that that we started doing full swaps.

For the uninitiated, a full swap generally means a hook-up that involves penetration, whereas a soft swap, which is where many new couples start, is sexy play that involves everything but. Sarah and her husband found a couple they felt comfortable with for their first full swap.

So we set it up like a date and we actually met friends of ours from the swinging scene. They knew that they were going to be our first. So just to put us in your shoes, or you probably weren't wearing shoes, I don't know, but can you help us to picture it? What was the scene that very first time? Talk us through it as though you're back in your own body remembering it.

We got a hotel room. We went for drinks and dinner. And then we went up to the room. So almost like losing your virginity. It was very planned and nerve wracking, but it did go really well. Both of us were attracted to the other couple, which really helped. And the sex was fantastic.

Watching my husband have sex with other women is a huge turn on for me. I'm a massive voyeur, which I didn't even realise I was. It's like live porn is the best kind of porn you'll get. So my partner at the time, he introduced me to the lifestyle on our first date. Remember Jess? She's our tour guide at the sex club.

So he basically gave me the spiel about the lifestyle and how he was involved in the lifestyle and it was something that he wanted to continue. Gave me a few books and I guess articles to read up on to see if I was interested in it. And after about a week, I was like, yep, let's do this. Tell me about your first time. My first time was with a couple and I was...

Pretty much shaking in my boots. It was a very nerve-wracking situation. It's probably the most tequila I've ever taken before I've gone out on a date. Jess was 20 when, thanks to her boyfriend's introduction, she crossed over from a vanilla life into swinging. After six months, she and her partner decided to open a sex club together. They are not a couple any more, but seven years later are still business partners at this club that I'm visiting.

In here is a voyeur room. What happens is you can see inside there but they can't see out so it's a two-way mirror. So it's got a sling inside of it. We're back at the club and travelling down a long corridor. So far my favourite spot has been the gigantic shower room which has three shower heads and could fit about 18 people. All those clean towels. Like I know I'm seeing a sterile and fully clothed version of it but it just looks fun. The massage table has

It has two holes in it, obviously one for the genitals down below and then one for your face. Jez tells me that even though the massage table was specifically built for the club so that penises could dangle down through the hole, it's mostly women she sees using it, lying down to get warmed up in a way that feels right for them. What's up the back there behind that curtain? My rubbish bins. Super, super sexy. My rubbish bins are my ice machine, so... There's a sense of anticipation and anticipation

A hum in the air. Maybe it's the ice machine. Maybe it's the 60 or so women who have already bought tickets to today's event and who are on their way to get fondled, fingered or eaten out or maybe none of those things or maybe whatever the hell they want. MUSIC

People are starting to arrive and it's quite an assortment of different women for this women only event. I mean a group of four or five friends just walked in. They're all kind of hotties I'd say, just to generalise, but looking in their 20s, mid-20s, attractive. Just look like they could be going to the races or to a baby shower or something. You know, an assortment of nice shoes. I'm glad I wore my black boots.

Yeah, I've already signed in quite a few girls. So yeah, girls are very good at being on time. When I was a bartender, I liked to think that I could tell what band was playing by the audience they attracted. But here, I don't know what band is playing. The women who walk in are a mixture of young to middle-aged, thin to fat. Everyone has made an effort to look good. They're overwhelmingly white with maybe a couple of exceptions, but there's not much else to unite them.

The great thing about this club is like there's no expectations of anything. I only started looking even into the whole idea of exploring more than just having a

two people in your relationship maybe a year ago or so. I don't believe that my husband can give me everything that I'm looking for in life. And that's just a lot to put on one person anyway. Last time I was here was quite a while ago actually because of COVID. But I was with five people and I had four orgasms. So I expect the first few hours will be all the mingling.

And then someone's gonna be the first one to dress up in their lingerie, which will encourage all the other women to dress up in their lingerie. A bit more mingling, but won't be too long until the orgy room is being used.

Okay, Erica, you were one of the first people here. I saw you walk in. Yes. Are you a regular at these nights? No, this is my first time. I'm so sorry to interview you on your first time. How are you feeling about it? I'm very nervous, but I've had a couple of drinks to calm my nerves, so I'm feeling a little bit better now. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I'm 24. But your male partner, how long have you been together? Six years. And what does he think about this? He actually drove me here. Are you worried you might get addicted to it? A little bit, yes. LAUGHTER

As we pack up our gear to leave, I see that Erica is still fully clothed and deep in conversation with a couple of regulars that she's just met. Other women have dressed down to lingerie or bondage gear and there's a young woman in suspender stockings wearing a G-string and towering heels and she's bending over the pool table using a pool cue to smack a ball into the pocket. It is quite a scene.

If the swinging scene is a deck of cards, we've met a couple of queens, a newbie, some veterans and some dabblers. Now it's time to meet the card everyone wants. She's hard to find. She's coveted. She's... The unicorn! It's sort of like this mythical creature that's super special and rare.

Miranda is what's known in swinging circles as a unicorn. She's 29, single and loves the top billing she gets as special guest star.

While swinging is for couples, unicorns ride solo looking for fun. Single women are usually welcome to play at swingers clubs. Often their entry tickets are discounted. But single men are not unicorns. If they're welcome at all, they are heavily vetted. I suppose a part of the enjoyment probably is also being that person that you kind of know that everyone wants. You do get a lot of attention, which sometimes can be overwhelming, but also it's really nice.

As it is with mythical creatures, Miranda is making dreams become reality. I like being involved with couples as well because they have a sort of fantasy that has a unicorn involved and it's nice to be able to fulfil that as well and see their fantasies come true. How do you negotiate with a couple what you're going to do? Communication is key. So once you've kind of determined that you're interested in them and they're interested in you,

we just really have a conversation. Like it'll kind of be like, you know, are you playing here tonight or, you know, are you going back to yours or a hotel? And then we kind of determine that and it's kind of like, are you two playing together? Are you two playing alone? You know, are you looking for a group of people, just one person? And then we kind of get into the rules. Like some people do have particular rules, like, you know, my partner can't have sex with you, but you can have sex with me. And then we just kind of determine whether I suppose we match up.

When a couple is on the lookout for a single female to play with, it's called unicorn hunting. And while there can be perks to being a coveted wild card, sometimes couples overlook the needs and desires of the unicorn, thinking only about their own wish lists and how to tick them off. Miranda has advice.

Don't in the first message demand things of people or in the first sentence, because that's often a big turn off for me is when people are very demanding, like, hi, my name's Baba. This is my partner. This is what we want. And just kind of list a bunch of like, we want you to do this for us. Oh gosh, that's really off-putting. You haven't even taken a second to get to know me. Some of the do's I think, just be yourself and be open. Like you can be truthful and not be

arrogant or over the top. But I think, yeah, be truthful and be patient and don't be too intense and pushy in the first sort of meeting. And I think maybe this is what gets us to what we can learn from the lifestyle, even if we have no intention of ever going there ourselves. Pushiness, insects, as in life, just makes people feel gross and used.

The rules and boundaries when swinging are golden. Open discussion of the C words and no, not cock, cock, cock, the other Cs. Communication and clear, concise, continuous consent are essential and they take practice. For sex to be fun and enjoyable, women need to feel safe.

Meet Wendy. She's the queen of swinging in Adelaide. She runs a sex club and has been in the scene for 25 years. In the time Wendy's been swinging, the concept of what was sufficient consent has changed a lot. When I first started swinging, consent was just no means no. At its worst, if somebody reached out to touch you and you said no and they moved on and that was it. These days, it's...

unacceptable to do that. You're expected to ask for consent before touching and moving on to play. Wendy's Club goes by the FRIES model of consent. F-R-I-E-S. FRIES is a crunchy, hot acronym for consent. F stands for freely given. No one is being coerced into doing anything they don't want to do. R, reversible. You can change your mind at any time.

I, informed. You know exactly what and who is going where and nothing crucial has been omitted. E is enthusiastic because yay, sex. S is specific. Hi, babe, we're going to do it. It's too broad. Specific means you know exactly what has been agreed.

Knowing the rules doesn't mean it's always easy to enact them in real life. What does FRIES look like in a sex club setting? Making a connection first, asking if, would you like to go play? And then when you're on the bed, you know, sort of checking in before you progress to the next stage. So it's ongoing consent. Wendy says communication starts way before you get to the club.

You really got to make sure when you go, if you're going with a partner, that you've had a chat about things beforehand, about your rules and your boundaries. As long as everybody understands that you can tap out if you don't feel like it and join back in if you want to and if you're not feeling it that day, it's perfectly fine. We are very big on consent and so we always say consent is king.

This is Jess again, the host and owner of the sex club we're visiting. Basically, if there's not a conversation that's happened between your partner, between the person that's around you, then that interaction should not be happening. In Jess's own relationship, it's not all hardcore 24/7 frotting. He is learning about the lifestyle, so he's very fresh and very new to it.

As Jess is a seasoned swinger, she makes sure they always move at his pace. So we don't swing openly. We swing together. So we're a couple that plays together, stays together. We always have a conversation before we even turn up to the club and say, what do we want to do? What would we like to achieve? But we make sure that nothing's set in stone. So it's not, you know, we have to play with somebody tonight. It's if it happens, it happens. But we communicate throughout the whole entire process.

What's it like to see your partner having sex with another person? It's a very uplifting moment because I can see somebody that I care and love have pleasure or have that moment with themselves and especially to be involved in it as well. The enjoyment of knowing your partner's having sexual pleasure with someone else has a name. It's called compersion, also known as the opposite of jealousy.

But watching the love of your life get it on with another person isn't always so straightforward. You would think it's just pure jealousy, but it's not. For Sarah, watching her husband have sex with another woman for the first time brought a mix of emotions.

It made me realise that when you have sex with someone for so long, you're so used to the way that they have sex and their methods and you can almost count what's happening next. But I realised that when he was having sex with other women, the sex was quite different.

He's much more energetic. Could last a lot longer. Oh, wow. Not that he's, you know, got any issues with that, but just, you know, putting on his best performance, I'd say. Sarah, just thinking back to your first swinging experience, what was going through your head?

At the time, you know, I'm 40 now, but this is 10 years ago. The girl was a lot younger than me, in better shape, really enthusiastic. And I knew that my husband was really sexually attracted to her. I could just tell in the way that they had sex. And you do compare yourself, you know, oh, well, why doesn't he?

fuck me like that. And, you know, I think a lot of the jealousy that I was having was just more of a reflection of my own insecurity. Let's talk about body image and stuff. When you're having sex in a swinging environment, are you conscious of how you look? Are you kind of assessing your tummy rolls and your cellulite on your thighs and stuff? Or does that sort of evaporate a bit more?

It evaporates over time. So a couple that you're initially having sex with, absolutely. It takes me, you know, we laugh about it. We're like, oh, it's taking us two days to get ready for a sex party these days. You know, it's waxing and plucking and tanning and Botox and extensions and nails and like there's a lot that goes into it. I should just point out that Sarah is on the Gold Coast and they have different standards up there.

But swinging has helped Sarah be kinder to herself. It's taught me that I should be less harsh on my own body because everyone's got a body and we all look different. And it's allowed me to embrace it. I used to have a real issue when I was younger with the look of my vagina. And over the course of swinging, it's really made me love it again. For

For Sarah and her husband, swinging did get a bit much and they took a nine-month break. I think I was just a little bit worn out with how many times we were having sex a week versus how many times we were going to the club. It can really monopolise your life, especially your free time.

It's like anything in life, too much of, you know, even the greatest thing is just too much. When you re-entered the scene, did you sort of have some clear boundaries about how to avoid getting burnt out?

I wish I had, but we went straight back in and went to a swingers resort in Port Douglas for seven days. So we just dived straight back into the orchard. Holy moly. Oh, my God. We go every year, honestly. It's like a fun park for adults. You know, you used the phrase worn out when you quit the scene. I just worry that your vagina would get worn out. Everything gets worn out. LAUGHTER

I would imagine. Everything gets tired. As much as going to a sex club in the middle of a hot Sunday afternoon scared me, I'm really glad I went.

That seedy swingers stereotype that I had in my brain has been blown away. And I've seen that Sarah, Jess, Miranda, Wendy and that awesome group of women that I met at the club are kind of just regular women juggling jobs, relationships and sexual desires just like you and me. And there's even more that us vanillas can take from my little excursion.

Swinging has taught me to be able to communicate better and also not be afraid of asking for things. I've realised that my desire comes from watching other people have sex and then going home and discussing it with my husband and that's the turn on for me.

This podcast was produced on the lands of the Turrbal, Bidjigal, Gundungurra and Gadigal peoples. Ladies We Need To Talk is mixed by Anne-Marie de Bettencourt. It's produced by Tamar Kranswick. Supervising producer is Alex Lolbach and our executive producer is Kyla Slavin. This series was created by Claudine Ryan. Music