Blu Most on Art, Money & Organizing the Chaos of Creative Careers (pt 1/2)
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Even though I hadn't put my skills to the test, I trusted myself enough going all the way back to my first job with my life coach and friend. Now, she really taught me how to just show up and be confident and just that's how you get what you want.

Hi, welcome back. It's so good to be back. I'm very excited for today's episode. I loved this one. My friend Blue Most came over. She talks about her experience through art and food styling, creative direction, event design, and navigating

creative cycles and the tension between financial security and artistic fulfillment, a tale as old as time. And we also get into how she stepped away from Instagram. We talk about marketing and niche communities, how we're all kind of walking personal brands and how that intersects with authenticity and how to manage

the chaos that is. And then I'm splitting this into two because we spoke for about four hours, recorded about three of those hours, recorded over three of those hours actually. But what you're about to hear is part one. And then you'll have to come back next week where we get into ADHD habits, community for freelancers who work alone. And we talk about relationships and her advice and, um,

And so much more. And to be honest with you, I feel like I didn't even scratch the surface with her. I texted her the next day and I was like, I know we hung out for four hours and just talked for all of it, but I feel like there was so much more to talk about, even though this was basically our first time ever hanging out and I hope it's not our last. So thank you for eavesdropping on this conversation. In part two, we take some questions from mutual friends of ours and

It's just two people getting to know each other, talking and laughing, and it really meanders into all sorts of places that I wanted to go with her and then places I didn't even expect and it was everything I dreamed of and more. So here's my conversation with Blue Most.

I always wished that alcohol was my thing. I know, I can't really party. I'm kind of not. I know, I was like, it would be so much easier of all these other vices that I have. I wish that it could be that one. I know, I spend money on hobbies. I'm like... Oh, that's a good thing to spend money on. No.

You should see my studio. It's crazy. Yeah, I thought just in case we needed to multi- I've got these crafts. Oh my god, I love that. If you feel the mood, move to start painting it. I made stuff all day. What did you make today? I made, I studied sculpture and ceramics. Yes. So that's like my passion. I learned this. That's what I do in my studio. Should I tell you that?

No, in my research, I learned this. Oh, you did research. I sure did. Oh my God. So I just make ceramics in my studio. But then the hobbies that I, okay, like the other day I went to my friend's house. Oh shoot, I need to turn the music off. The other day I went to my friend's house and she did my nails and I was just like, fuck, I need to buy every single nail polish that ever existed. And so I bought everything and now I enjoy doing nails, I guess, but I haven't, I've yet to do it. I've yet to do it.

I have a whole box. Oh, okay. No, it's just nail polish that I have. But I love painting my nails. No, I got all the funky stuff, like the metallic stuff. Want to come over and do nails sometime? Yeah, let's do our nails. And then I have every other hobby you could ever think of. Today I purchased... Actually, so funny, it just showed up at my door today. I forgot I purchased it. Like a heat gun.

So that I could help you get? No, like a heat gun. Because I had this idea to melt a bunch of wax pouring from something. And so I bought a bunch of wax and a heat gun. And then today, the heat gun got here. And I was like, oh, I guess this is also a new hobby of mine. And I do cyanotypes.

What's that? It's sun prints. Oh, cool. Can I do some of these hobbies with you sometime? Come over. I literally have all, like, that is what a studio is for. Oh, I'm so excited. It's for fun. I want to have a studio. This is, that I do, but. That's, I mean, that's why I moved out of the hustle bustle because I was like, I cannot afford to have a studio and be near everything. And it's one of the best decisions I've made.

Wow. This is very exciting. Okay. We've done a pre-show for everyone listening for hours and I never want it to end, but okay. We have to let everyone in on the long time coming of this happening. I've been a fan of you ever since we, we talked, we met at this dinner a few years ago, a year. I feel like it was like a year and a half ago, year and a half ago. Um,

Yeah. Time's something like that. I have no concept of time anymore. And you produced it and designed it and did the food and the art for it. And it was the, it was truly the one of the most incredible events I've ever been to. I had such a nice time. Yeah. I had such a nice time. And the, uh,

Yeah, Kate's gift bag was, I remember texting her and being like, that, it was around Christmas time kind of, right? Yes, I think so. And I remember being like, I feel like I just, like Santa, like I actually had a present. Oh yeah, that was amazing. Well, so Kate produced it. And Kate is incredible. She is really great. She's the best. So she, like her plus me, she gave me creative vision allowance. And then I think we made something pretty cool. She has a question for you later this evening. Oh!

Kate, who has bite size, who's incredible. But anyway, I had such a nice time and I talked to you at this event and we headed off and then somewhat of a joke, you're like, I'd like to come on. And I was very serious, like for sure, I love that. But I think you were kind of joking. Well, it was just like, I don't know if there's really much for me to talk about, but I also was like...

I remember saying, I'm not going to listen to your podcast because I'm going to come on. And if I listen to it, I want to have no preconceived idea about what we're talking about, what your vibe is. And then unfortunately that just led to a year and a half of me not listening. And you have no idea. This sounds like a lie. You have no idea how many times I've like pulled up your podcast to listen to it and then been like, and I've read the titles to try and get like an idea, but I've actually never listened to it.

Good. That would have been breaking your promise. You're a person of integrity. I am, but I tried. I tried to get something. I just didn't leave with much. No, I was so stoked to meet you and then have you on. And you're honestly brilliant and creative and prolific. And we've truly had an incredible podcast. Basement tapes not recorded before this. And yeah, it's been so wonderful preparing for this because I was...

through your website and I'm looking at all the food styling and all the incredible events that you've done since that dinner because that dinner that I met you at

wasn't that long ago but it's at the very very bottom because you've done so much since and expanded so much and I was just so in awe and excited for you and it like it's just it's been incredible so does it feel that way to you when you're in it looking back on everything that you've done I am like someone who gets really into something and then

I kind of feel satiated and then I leave and I go to something else and then I come back. So I feel like I did a couple that when I met you, I was doing events and I did a couple events and then I was kind of like, okay, that last one was like a lot. I remember leaving the last one and being like, oh, that was really exhausting and I feel good. And then kind of being like, okay, what do I want to do next? And then I leaned more into food styling for a while and

And then I've recently jumped into like prop styling and commercial work. Oh, and then there was also a stint of me doing creative direction and like campaign development for a couple brands. And yeah, now I'm kind of in that place again where I'm like, I don't know what I want to do now. So it has felt like a lot. It's like one thing at a time. So it always feels like not enough.

And also too much. Does that make sense? Yes. One thing I often say, which is somewhat related, is I feel like I'm never working and always working. No, I'm always working. I'm always working. Yeah. Even if I'm not actively doing anything, I'm looking at Pinterest or I'm going on a walk and just thinking about the way things look and I can't shut it off sometimes. So I'm always working. Yeah. Well, okay. So speaking of, your bio addresses this a bit. And...

It's very good. Drew me in. Very well written. But in it you say, exploring the application of physical design and art through various mediums of material and function.

loved that line and it seems to me like you're quite tactile like you were saying that different hobbies that you do how did you figure out how to meld all of your interests together into a career in general it sounds like you've had several already yeah and you're continuing to do that but did you always when you were younger and trying to like figure out what you were going to do how were you expanded to know what was possible for you

I think I always knew that my ideas were the strength of any problem I came across. It didn't always necessarily mean that I could fix them myself or execute, but the idea was always there. And I spent a lot of time processing problem solving. And because of that, I feel like every career idea that I had, I was able to cycle through all

all of the ways that it could go and then come out with specific ideas. And so I didn't really feel limited, I guess is what I'm trying to say. I felt I went to art school. I went to art high school. So I went to art middle school as well. I knew I wanted to be an artist from the time I was a kid. And I know your dad is creative, works in the creative. My dad's in film. My mom was an artist. She ended up not, she wasn't an artist for work, but she studied art

and interiors and did glass work and then ended up going a different route for just sustainability. So you had that in your... Yeah, I grew up in a very creative household. That was the thing I think that was most valued in my household was

And it wasn't in a way that pushed me in any direction. It was just naturally a thing that I was praised for. And so a thing that I felt like I had space to explore. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. And I think there was definitely a while because my dad's in the film industry. I thought I wanted to be like a director. And you grew up here. And I grew up in LA. But I thought I wanted to be like a director or something. And I felt like that when I was a really small kid. That is what I thought I wanted to be.

And as I got older, I remember really revolting the idea of being in the film industry. And I was like, this is disgusting. I hate it.

Because being a child of it is different. When you see your parents in it or the lack of your parents in it, it like definitely makes you have a different opinion of it. Yeah. So I could see that. Yeah. So I push it away a lot. And then it was really funny to like get to the point where I started in high school. I didn't really understand what like a creative director was. I had never heard of that. I still am like unclear. It's unclear. I mean, it's like a very complicated and I think like somewhat gatekept.

yeah career it's basically like like it's the person who has the ideas right and that's like what I felt good at and so like I would be in groups and doing projects or something and often I'd be the person who was like well I have the idea like I want to I just want to give the idea and everyone would be happy with yeah it was this is like I'm like having that moment now that that is that's what you liked that's what I want to do but I don't know I didn't know it was possible till yeah today and you have to find the application for it I think

But so I kind of got to that point

where I was doing art. I did every type of art. I was in like art conservatories and I like, I was really talented in fine arts, but it wasn't something I liked. It was something that just, I had practiced for so long. So I was good at, and I also really didn't like movies. So it was just like, well, what do I do to be an artist or anyone who's a creative at that point was someone who draws or paints or whatever. Yeah. You were finding your medium. Yeah. I was just finding my medium. I didn't understand it. So,

So I would like direct, but I didn't really understand that. And then so when I went to college, I actually started as like a psychology major, which is funny because the only classes I signed up for my first year of college were art classes only. I didn't take any of my necessary whatever they're called.

So you were just kind of like down the line, I will get into psychology. But right now I was just like, let me just do what I actually like. Yeah, no, I don't actually know what my thought process was. I just looked through the list of classes you can sign up for. But logistically, again, I was like, well, I don't want to be a painter and I don't want to be an illustrator. So I was like, so I'm not an artist. Like, I really, really was like, I'm not an artist.

That's just not me. And ceramics wasn't even registering at that point? Well, ceramics was like the first thing I took, actually. It was like the first class I got into. And I loved it. Wow. I loved it so much. I found my community. I went to... And this is college, not high school. This is in college. So you never did ceramics in high school? No. No. I don't even think I knew about it, really.

it really. Wow. Which is funny. But it was just like I grew up in like a film town. Right, right. So it wasn't a big deal at your high school. Weirdly at my public high school in Michigan we had to. I didn't do it but like people did it. Yeah I just went to charter schools so we had like less funding and but we had a lot of creative. Everyone was a creative. Everyone was an artist. Also there was a lot of going back to that actually there was like a lot of

What feels like it is common now in LA and like the art world, it was just people were pitted against each other. Really? Like we're little kids. Yeah. How so? It was just like, oh, you copied me or this is my style of art or this is what I'm doing. Where do you think that came from? I think it was because Instagram became a thing when I was in like ninth grade. Wow. So it was like you post your art and it's like how many likes you get and how much validation you get. Yeah.

And we're all just trying to identify ourselves. That's so interesting. Yeah. Because that would, wow. I never considered what that would do to me.

someone in art school having Instagram wow yeah it was very much how we were identifying ourselves it wasn't of course like they were my friends and we loved each other but it was like we were all also competing against each other right which in a way there's probably some pros to that of like pushing absolutely but a lot of cons too a lot of cons and I think for me especially because I already knew I'm not gonna be a painter or illustrator or etc I was like

I feel like there's no point in me going down that path. I didn't really, we were already in that mindset in high school. So like in college, I was just like, I have to go down like a more feasible route. So that's where the psychology maybe was. That's where I was like, I'm going to go down that route. So then what happened next? How did you evolve? So you choose psychology, you're taking on art classes, you fall in love with ceramics. And then, and then I was paying my way through school. So I had to leave.

So I left school after my first year because I was like, I can't afford this. Yeah. Even though I was getting grants and stuff, it's just like you still need money just to like whatever, eat food. Yeah. So I didn't, I couldn't afford to do it. And because of the way that I'm, I get like really into stuff. And because of that, I can't, I couldn't have a job and do school at the same time. Every time I did, I would just pick the job. So that's basically what I did. I left school and I like went and worked full time.

And I started, so I was, I used to babysit for this person in high school and she was having her second kid. She was pregnant. And I just was like, I'm going to come back to LA. Do you need anything? And she was like, that's so crazy. The universe always brings you back to me. I was just saying I need a full-time help.

And the thing is, she's a life coach. I was like in the most confusing space in my life. And I just got to go into the hands of someone who felt so secure and so like motivational to me and help me figure shit out. And so I worked for her for a year and a half and she was

taught me so much she taught me how to really know what I'm worth she taught me how to ask for things and she just taught me so many life skills that I think people were not learning in college and I was I was yeah that was my college like at the time so I was learning just about different stuff yeah

Wow, that's so kismet. I know, it was very kismet. And my relationship with her actually in the end is very kismet because we are always brought back to each other. And you're still close? Yeah, so the kid who I nannied in high school is 11 now.

And we're like besties. I love her. But I worked for her and was her nanny, but also her kids were in school, so I was kind of her personal assistant and her home assistant. I kind of was everything, all of the above. And I started being basically her personal chef. And I didn't know that I liked cooking. Wow. So that's where that piece came in. That wasn't part of it when you were a kid. No, not at all. My parents, my dad is Jewish and makes lox sandwiches.

I don't know, like, locks eggs. Which, love. Delicious. And my mom's Italian and makes pasta. Both, like, good, but I didn't know about the vast world of food. I didn't understand it. To me, like, chicken and vegetables was fine. Right. And, like, also growing up in LA, I wasn't

it was the era of juice and smoothies and like, you know, not an era of like foodies. That wasn't, it was 2016. So it was like, not that era. So funny how that doesn't seem that long ago, but I know exactly what you mean. There's been such an evolution. Yeah. I mean, it's 10 years ago. It was, it's definitely different. There's a foodie empire now. That's,

relies on it. I mean, which also brings back to what I ended up doing, but there was no world of food content back then. That wasn't a thing. Or maybe it was on YouTube. Yeah, it was like maybe, you know, there was like those videos of people who would go and try restaurants in LA, but it was very long form content. Plus their smoothie bowl with all the toppings. Exactly. But I digress. So I like started cooking for her and

And it was just something that I was drawn to when I was working for her. I was just like, oh, can I cook you guys lunch? Can I cook you? It wasn't necessarily asked of me. And then it just became part of my role because I enjoyed it. Also, she lived next to the original Erewhon OG. Wow. This was OG. By the Grove? Is that the one? No, in Calabasas. Oh, I didn't know that was the first one. Iron Prager. That was the first one. I'm pretty sure. I have no idea. But it was, so I got to go in there. Also, it was like a little bit different back then. Yeah, yeah. That one is nice. But there wasn't like a hot bar.

but we would go in and I would go in and I would get to pick their whole menu for the week. It was so exciting. It was like, and she's so lucky. That's a dream. I know it was amazing. So I started cooking for her and yeah,

Then I basically was like, okay, I need a change of scenery. And I moved to Portland. This was after a year and a half. I went to community college there. And I was still just trying to figure out what I wanted. But while I was there, I met my partner. And he was going to read. Oh, I didn't realize you met him at...

Yeah, I met him through Tinder. Right, right, right. But I didn't realize you were there. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah, so I met him and his only job that he had outside of school, he's a scientist, but all he had done was like worked in kitchens. And he grew up cooking. Oh, wow, the pieces are falling in place from the edge of my seat. It's making sense now. So he was the one who like really, really integrated food into my life. Like our first few dates were very much like,

around food. He traveled a lot as a kid and his parents loved to cook. So he loved food and he was like, I can't believe you don't know about this. What's his background food wise? I mean, he just has a really big family who loves to cook. They love to cook together. Every time there's a holiday, it's like we spend all day making dim sum from scratch or making Indian food. We make everything

everything. And they traveled for two years, like left their home and were homeschooled and traveled for two years and live in different countries for like three months at a time. So cool. Yeah. And took like cooking classes and learned about different cuisines. So like he was very, and he's not like snobby about food. He just knows what good food is and just knows like

how food can tell a story. And he just helped me see how cool this thing that I was just using as utility was. And I was like, okay, I know how to cook because I've been cooking for this family for a while, but I didn't necessarily have the passion for all of the nuances of it. I just was like, okay, I'm good at it. Because like I said, I get into things.

and I got really good at it. When you got good at it, obviously practice doing it, but how did you initially learn? Did you watch videos or just come naturally to you? I watched videos and I, yeah, I'd watch YouTube and read cookbooks. And I'm like not someone who can really follow a recipe even now, but I'm someone who like, I love reading the cookbook like a book. And then later I'll be like, oh,

I was so inspired by that. It stuck with me. And then I'll, like, use some technique they used or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. And refer it back to that. Yeah. So that... When we started cooking together, it, like, opened this whole world for me. So cool. Yeah. And I was still...

in like a, I don't really know what I want to do. But at that point I was like, I do know I want to go back to school. I just need to find a way to do it in a way that I can support myself. And it makes sense. And I, to do that, I felt like I had to know exactly what I wanted to do. I was like, I can't afford to like go to school forever and just like, you know. That's so interesting. Cause I think people who have the resources to do that,

end up continuing to do that in a way that yeah it can be challenging for them to do something else and so it's kind of like in your creative constraint could kind of be good you know like I'm not having the resources to continue it's like the fire under your ass right kind of just like okay if I'm gonna do this I gotta do it right yeah I've been thinking about that a lot did you see that New Yorker article that came out last week about how the percentage of people in in

New York who are supported by their family pays their rent or whatever. Yeah, I did. And it was really unsurprising. No, but it's validating also because it's like, yeah, of course, so many people are either living in debt or being supported. Completely. And no judgment. Love that. Yeah. It's just, it's interesting to see it, like you said. Yeah. Yeah. And the reality of supporting yourself is I was 20 years old or 19, 20, and I was like,

I don't know anything. I don't know how to form a career. I don't know how to save. I don't know how to do any of this shit. But what I do know is that I need to get back in school and I need to find something I like. So it was like two things. So I basically went to community college and decided there's like this program. You're so self-aware. Like you've always been so... I've been, yeah. Really, really good. Thank you. I think it's like a...

good. It's like a two sides of a coin. Cause I think it's like, it can be a curse sometimes, but I, sometimes I'm like, God, it'd be so nice to not know and just be able to live. And now I have to know this thing that needs to change. So I'm responsible for changing it. And that's why ignorance is bliss. It is bliss. And sometimes I just want to be ignorant. Yeah. And I've shifted to that in my life. But I think also there was this part of me that was like,

I've left school and I feel inadequate. And so it was like, I need to prove to myself and to others at the time. I feel less like that now, but at the time I felt like I needed to prove to others that I'm using my time wisely. Just because your ego kind of felt like you needed that. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely, I need to...

be good enough. And it felt embarrassing. Now I'm so proud of myself for putting myself through school, but it felt embarrassing at the time that I had to do that. I was in this kind of polarity of pushing myself, but also feeling shame. So it was like pulling me back and holding me back. Was that just because people around you, that wasn't the case? I don't think I necessarily grew up around a bunch of privileged people. I think...

It was just my expectation of where I should be at. It was just that was what I was taught as you should be in school or you should be working toward this type of job. I was absolutely ashamed during this point when I was deciding what I wanted to do and going through with that. I was coming to terms with the fact that the only thing that I liked was art.

And not art in a gallery type art world way, but just art. I loved every type of art. I loved creativity. And I felt so much shame in that because that is what we were taught is the worst thing to do. Yeah. If you want to be successful, you cannot be an artist. And I think especially growing up, not super wealthy, um,

I also was like, why would I be an artist? Why would I continue this path? Why wouldn't I shift things and help support my mom and just shift things? It was like a weird decision. It felt very shameful. And then also to not be in school and be working and everyone else is...

doing that. I just, there was like a lot happening. And I think I had to grow up in that time really quickly because I had to be a functioning adult in society while everyone else got to like fuck off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. Yeah. But then I decided that I wanted to go to USC because they have a need blind program. So like, I was like, I'm going to go there. And my sister had done the same thing. So I knew about it. So I went to community college just to get like the base classes done. So I just...

could do that while I was working. And then I got in. Yeah, I got in. I applied with art. Yeah. And I got in and I was like, oh, and the strategy behind that also was that USC is not necessarily known to be the best art school, but it is known to be a really good school.

And I was like, okay, if I'm going to be an artist, I'm going to get the fucking name behind me. Great. That is the strategy. That makes sense. But then COVID hit. Oh shit. Yeah. So that's okay. And during that time, I didn't know what kind of art. You hadn't even started. You just got in. I hadn't started. I was in community college.

But what I did know was I like wanted to do art. So during community college at PCC, I was doing graphic design. I was doing just like art classes. Those like base level classes just so I could go into school having some behind me. And at that point, I couldn't do anything anymore because it was COVID. I had no resources. I had no resources for creativity. I was just like, I'm stuck. I just figured out what I want to do.

And now I just have to sit here. Yeah. And I started school online and stayed in Portland because LA was crazy. And my boyfriend and I just started like playing around with food. That was like our fun thing. And then it ultimately became my creative outlet. Wow. Like I was just like,

We started, we actually, you know, it's really funny. We started my Instagram together and it was called blue and Cyrus make good food. And then over time it switched because he wasn't posting. And I was like, Hey, I think I actually really like doing this. And so I knocked his name off and was like blue make good food. And then I thought your last name was make good.

I know, that's funny. I love it. I think that. And then, like, last year or two years ago, I knocked off food because I was like, I don't want to limit myself. I make so much. Oh, it's so perfect. Yeah. So now it's Blue Make Good. Like, it's just like... Yeah, I just kind of kind of knocked it off. It would be a great last name. Like, you could change your name to that. Well, I feel like most is pretty good. Yeah, if you had a bad last name, it would be great, but your last name's incredible. I'm pretty happy with my name. Yeah, and there is something that you could do with your last name. You could do Blue...

most most good yeah most wanted most wanted I am but yeah that was kind of like where it started I guess it all started when I was born but that was the backstory that was the backstory that was the best line that anyone's ever said in this podcast

Turns out it actually started when I was born. Let me make a correction. It actually took me many, many years to get here. But no, that was what started it. And I just started posting on Instagram. And then I started getting jobs. So did you end up doing school? Or did you just skip it? Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I started school online. And then I was doing food styling. Oh, this is actually funny. I always forget. No, you're cooking. Yeah, we're...

I started school in Portland and I was, and this was like my third year there. Kind of worked out in a way the COVID got to stay. And Cy was finishing like a post-bac. So it worked out. And he ended up applying to grad schools in LA and he got into UCLA. So we decided to move together the next year. Oh, perfect. So it worked out for the best. But I...

had been posting on Instagram through COVID while I was doing school and just started making contacts. It was this food community,

And some people were home cooks, some people were chefs, some people were food stylists. And we just, it was, I don't know, I want to say like 200 of us. We all followed each other and it was, it felt very intimate. Cool, yeah. And then when I moved back to LA, I started getting jobs. Like people started saying, hey, can you...

can I send you this product and will you use it in your photo and post it? And I was like, sure. I didn't really understand. And I was like, okay. And I had started going to school in person at USC, but I was doing this job on the side and, and I hadn't ever crossed the two at that point. Like my life was not involved in my Instagram at all. It was,

only stuff I made. So no one knew really who I was. And then I had two companies, like pretty well-known companies reach out to me. I guess someone had put my name in this startup group chat that was people in the food world to look out for. And so two companies reached out to me and were like, we'd like to give you job offers. Oh my God. Yeah. And I was 22.

And I didn't know... What was the job? It was the creative manager. So I ended up working for Zab's. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was the creative manager. Oh, my God. What does creative manager mean? So you basically...

all content strategy, all creation of content. I redesigned their labels. I did any... Basically, it was a very small team and I was the only creative person. So we said creative manager because I just managed all creative. And community building as well because they saw me build my Instagram really quickly. And so they were like, well, can you do that for us? So I managed... This is so inspiring to everyone. Yeah.

I mean, I think it's funny too, because a lot of people ask, like people will ask me like, how did you get there? Like give me notes, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, honestly, I did not intend for any of this to happen. I didn't ask. I didn't try to get those jobs. Mm-hmm.

I just got that job. And actually, they didn't, in my head, like maybe, maybe they know how old I am or they knew how old I was. In my head, they think I'm 35 and I've been doing this forever. And I just kept that up. And I did not clue them into the fact that I was in school or anything. Because I was like managing this whole sect of their company. That is so cool.

And just felt like I was absolutely, I was just like making shit up. Yeah. And I knew how to do that because I'd done that my whole life is like fake it till you make it. Right. And I just. That's what everyone's doing. Yeah. And I think it felt, I think, I think so. Yeah. And I think I felt successful in it and I, we saw that it was working. So I was like. You were. Grew more confident in what I was saying. Yeah. And I did like, even though I hadn't put my skills to the test, I trusted myself enough going.

Going all the way back to my first job with my life coach and friend now, she really taught me how to like just show up and be confident and just that's how you get what you want. Wow. Yeah. I feel like I'm learning a lot and I feel like I'm going to have my 20s now. Like I'm going to redo my 20s. Redo them. Starting now. Yeah, do it. Like with the information that you have given me so far. Absolutely. And I think that also I was like blessed in a way to have started this all when I was...

18 and a lot of people started this when they were 22. Right. They started their lives after college. I ended up because I went back to school. It seems like a better, it seems like it should be that way. Oh, absolutely. I think it was not, it wasn't even in like an encouraged direction to go to community college ever. So like I had this whole shame game that whole time, but really I was probably doing the best thing. Yeah. And yeah,

In the end, I'm so grateful. I, like, technically graduated when I was 25. Technically, because I have one Spanish class to take that I've yet to take. So I am technically ungraduated. Who cares? You're just, you're right. You're there. I have different people in my life. Some people think that I need the diploma, and some people are like, what? You don't need that. I know. I'll get it. Yeah. Just to have it. But, um...

But yeah, once I had gotten that job, it opened a lot of doors for me. I met a lot of people in the food world, in the design world, through Instagram. Instagram was like a huge tool for me. But then that thing happened. I don't know if we said this while we were recording or not, but I get into hobbies and then I get really deep into it. And there's this point where I reach where I'm like, I could really grow in this. And then I'm like, let me just do something else. And I kind of...

self-sabotage in a way doing that where I was like growing my Instagram really quickly I had a lot of engagement I was successful quote-unquote but I was doubting myself and also feeling really kind of frustrated with the way that influencer work is and the way that people started talking to me and like expecting things from me especially companies um and I just kind of

got frustrated and was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah. And so I kind of stopped.

So related to that, and then also related to like what you were saying of like when it was just food, and then you took out blue make good food and blue make good. Believe it or not, I am going to read another part of your bio. But you go on to say embracing a variety of interests has not only fueled her passions, but has also endowed her.

with a holistic understanding of the expansive tapestry that continues the creative landscape. That is so poetic. Can you unpack that a little bit? Because I think it might be related to this multifaceted way of being of being.

blending it all together. And I think like what you're saying, I'm like you, maybe it's not self-sabotage, but listen, somebody said to me once,

On this very podcast many years ago. Because I was always... Back in my day. Back in my day. Because I'm 104. You're 106, everybody. 106. I look great. But I used to constantly talk about this exact, like, piece of having a lot of interest. And somebody told me that their therapist said that it's a sign of a highly creative personality to have a lot of interest and do a lot of things. And...

don't worry about which one to do. Just follow that because whatever you're meant to do for a bit of time will rise to the top and then it might go away and then another one will and that's okay. And I just found that so validating. It sounds like that's just like, instead of making it like, I don't know that it's self-sabotage if it works.

Yeah, I think it was when it turned into more of a job. Like when I was really seeing my passion turn into a job, I was like deterred immediately. And I needed to shift. I get that. Yeah, and I left. I'm a very like cold turkey person. So I left and then now... Zabs. Zabs. Or I left Zabs and I also left...

Just kind of Instagram, which is what I had started building my work on. Yeah. And I was like, I really crave just creative things that I can touch. And this was also post-COVID. At this point, it was 2022. So I was...

just wanting to touch art. I wanted to make. Tactile. Yeah. And while I was in school, I was also studying sculpture and doing ceramics. And so I had that piece. But as far as work, I felt like I could move my skills in the direction of also being tactile. Yeah. And so I kind of moved into events at that point. And also this was all happening simultaneously. Of course, I was still doing stuff with food styling and Instagram and whatever. Yeah.

But I kind of shifted focus and I went to events and that was around the time I met you. So it must've been like 2023. So it must've been two years ago. Wow. Crazy. Wow. Yeah. So 2023 feels like last year. Yeah. I'm not warmed up to this year being not 2024. I know. I, it,

Actually, it's 2020 still. Right. I mean, to me, it's 2016. Yeah, I know. Every time I was saying this, someone was just telling me that when people are talking to them about their age and they feel like they don't relate, they're like, well, I'm 16 years old.

And they're 27 or 28. Yeah. I was about to be like, was that me? Right. I think it's just, we don't age like in our, in our minds. We don't age. We age with what we do, but it takes a lot longer for our mind to make that like mental block of age. I completely, I mean, I feel like I am mentally the same as I, like, we don't really change that. We're kind of fully baked, you know? Like,

Our perception. It's 26, right? That's when you... Or just like, I don't know. Part of me thinks like as a kid. Like I'm kind of like, I'm not that different. Yeah. Like I've learned things and I've had experiences. But like my nature is just...

doesn't really change that much. And there's this movie that I like, and one of the characters is retiring and he's like, the crazy thing is like, I feel like I'm 18. I'm like a 78 year old, 18 year old, you know, you're just kind of like creepy. Yeah. Very, very, um, yeah, that could go in weird directions, but I don't know. I relate though in the sense of like, I, um,

I look in the mirror, I see the gray hairs, and I'm like, how did this happen? Because it does go really quick in your... I've been talking about this to a lot of my friends, like, a little bit older than me, or in this pocket of my 30s, where I'm like, I feel like it just...

Like, when I turned 30, I was like, oh, I'm basically still in my 20s. Like, no problem. I didn't feel bad about it. Like, 30s are great. That's wonderful. But just last year, I had, like, physical things. Like, there were a few things where I was, like... And then the biggest thing is, like, seeing my friend's age. Like, seeing, like... Oh, yeah. You see yourself in them. Whoa. Like, that person's a year younger than me. And, like, I...

see it or I like notice something here or like our parents and it's like yeah it's quick where I'm like oh we're this age now like it's interesting yeah because 34 is the first year I'm like oh I'm in my 30s that makes sense I feel like now so I'm 26 and gonna turn 27 in like six months and I'm actually 38 on the inside

I think that actually to sidetrack, I feel like because I grew up in LA and we had, I had a very immersive like childhood in high school. We were partying like people do in there like now, right?

And because of that, everything was sped up. Everything was sped up and I grew up really fast. And then now it's funny because I think I find myself gravity. I'm like now a grandma who goes to bed at nine. Yeah. But I, but I gravitate towards people who are older than me. And because of that, it's actually like annoying because to me, people, my age, I mean, not everyone, but a lot of people, my age, I have very different ideas of how I want to spend my time than they do. And like understanding of self, um,

So I'm like, well, I feel much older than you. But then the people who I actually want to spend time with talk to me like I'm a baby. Like my friends who are 35. I did it to you the other day. You're just a child. I mean, not that part, but I'm fine.

I end up making it a big deal. And I think it comes out of like, I can't believe I'm not your age. I feel like I know. And I, well, and I think that also you probably don't feel like you're my age if I'm just any 26 year old. Exactly. Because I do feel like I get a little better. We're, we're to get, we're together about 30. We're about 30. Yes, exactly. Exactly. You're 30 and I'm 30.

Yeah. If we were to like... Okay, so if we were to add our ages and divide it in half or whatever. Yeah, we're about 30. Yeah. I think. Yeah, the way that tracks... By the transitive property in the Pythagorean theory... Yeah, we're both 30 years old. That's correct. Yes, that's correct. Showing my work. It's so funny. I'm jumping around, but I think we kind of covered this. I'd written down in my copious notes about you. I wrote down, we were talking about age the other day, and I think you were saying how...

How you felt like you don't feel like your age. Yeah. It's funny. We cut. So check, I guess we kind of covered that. Do you have any, any other thoughts on aging? You want to, you want to add before we go in a different direction? No, I mean, well, I'm, I'm turning 27 this year, six months, six months. And we're exactly one month apart in our birthdays. One month apart. Oh, funny. So our golden, maybe that's where the math checks out. Cause our golden birthday for both of us is 30. Yeah.

Is it? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. So we are both 30. Yeah. In some world, in some timeline. Right, in the golden world. Yeah, absolutely. But 27 is my favorite number, and so I'm really excited to be 27. Oh, good. Exciting. I'm so excited. I feel like 27 is the year...

I think it's just like when your solar return starts. Oh, right. Your Saturn return. Or Saturn return. I think it's 29, I thought. I think it can be anywhere in the 27 to 29. The before shocks or whatever. Yeah. And I just feel like it's when you have the knowledge of your 20s.

But like, and for you, if it was 29, it would be like 27. Exactly. And it's like the foresight of knowing how to go into your thirties with grace. So I'm like, 27 is such a sexy number. Yeah. I'm excited. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, sort of related to that and this like tapestry that you wrote about your bio is so, did you write that? Yeah. That is so beautifully well written. Well, I feel like I sometimes have to,

make myself sound better on paper because I go from so many different things. I was worried when I was making my website that if it was someone looking at it from a job point, they'd be like, well, why don't you do something consistently? So I was like, okay, I'm going to use my bio to explain how like

Yes, you do. Every aspect of creativity that I've gone into, I feel like has like moved me on to the next and I can go back and forth and whatever. Oh, completely. I mean, that's something I struggle with. Like no one seems to know what I do and I'm a little unclear myself in articulating it. Like it was...

Truly one of the best bios I've read in my entire... I don't usually, just for knowing, I want you to know I'm better at this than reading. I don't read people's bios. This is the first and last time that will happen. Wow. Because none of them are this good. Someone could up me. If you write their bio. Right. But other than that, I don't think it could happen. Well, I'm really good at making myself look and sound good. And that's everything.

Yeah, that's everything. Anyone successful is good at that. Yeah, I'm good at marketing myself. That is truly the biggest skill that I have. My through line through all of my interests is that I'm really good at marketing myself. Are you good at helping other people do that? Yeah, I am. Wait, did I tell you about this? No. That I had a conversation the other day at the thing that we were at. Yeah. And someone...

was asking me about my career and just kind of and I was just kind of like oh I feel so weird like talking about this and she kind of kept asking questions and I was like okay okay and then at the end of it all she was like I want to like meet with you and get coffee and like

ask you more questions and I was like what else do you want to know and she was just like well I just feel like you could be a career coach like I feel like you could help me can I hire like I literally need that I don't think I can afford you because you I and I'm gonna have to like worthy yes exactly but I'm gonna figure out a way to because you're the only person who can help I feel like that was a kind of

aha moment of me being like that's one of the points of my life where like my sister went in we okay we all came from this family of insecurity so my siblings went the opposite direction very like corporate like that type of world and my parents well they didn't encourage me actually they encouraged me to do art but they wanted me to make it you know financially stable and whatever um

I just didn't ever. I think that that was like one of my insecurities was the fact that I couldn't like kind of hone in on something. And so the fact that other people have mentioned to me a couple of times that it felt inspiring to them is like a weird thing.

It's weird. It's weird to hear. It's a sign, dare I say. It's a sign, but it's weird because I'm like, it's so crazy. Like I sit awake at night being like, what am I doing? Why am I getting bored with the thing again? And moving on, I just can't commit to it. And, you know, and then people are inspired and I'm like, what?

Completely. And to me, it makes... I see it... You're too close to it. That's why. But from where I'm sitting... Because similarly, that's what I do. I do creative consulting with people. I do... I call it the creative clinic and I help people in a similar way. Garbage at doing it for myself. Absolutely. But...

very good at doing it for others. And like, I see patterns very easily in things as do you. I know. I think our brains work similarly in that way, but like for you, I can see that. And I, and this gets a little bit esoteric and, um, but I, I know you'll like pick up what I'm putting down with this one, but, um,

I see the things that are the most challenging for us and the thing we have to like work through and grow from is usually what we have to offer the world. Oh, absolutely. So our, you know, it's our, our only role here on, you know, planet earth is like to heal and teach how we healed, you know, and like figure it out and then like give that back in whatever medium that is. It might just be like talking to a friend and, um,

So it makes perfect sense to me, and I know you see it that way too, of like your biggest thing is actually what people want from you. But sometimes it can be like, I can't believe it because that was like such a... And honestly, the main reason I bring up your bio at all was really the quote at the bottom that...

Most people only know half of that quote. Yeah. And I know for years and years and years, and you don't know this of course, cause it would have, you would have gone out of your promise. But for years I, there's been like, this is always such a mirror of like whatever I'm processing in my life is what I end up asking. Cause it's just like what I'm curious about. But there was a stretch of time where every, like a standard question here was to everyone like,

have you ever felt like a master of none? Like, do you feel like you have a lot of, and probably why that guy said the thing about his therapist was like during one of those questions, like it was every single, it was like an identity of this podcast. And when I read that, I was like,

You're such an example of the fact that that is a superpower. Can you know the quote to say it or do you want me to read it? You're going to have to read it. A jack of all trades is a master of none. That part people know, but oftentimes better than a master of one. Yeah, that resonated with me so hard. That's something that like every time I felt down about,

why can't I stick to something? I was like, this is my superpower. I genuinely do feel like it's a superpower. I just think that it's a superpower in as many ways as it also is harmful to me. Completely. Especially living in LA where it's like, everyone is competing with one another. And I remember...

There was a point where I was like doing, I don't even remember what I was doing, but I was doing something and I felt so innovative and like, I felt really proud of my work. And then it was like maybe the next week that I saw someone online basically doing the same thing. And you know what, that's like what this, this time period is. It's like Pinterest and Instagram and just copy paste. What do you mean? You saw someone doing, so I like created something for an event. Oh, I see. And it was like, I, it was just kind of one of those realizations of like,

Unless I really, really stick to this, people are going to get ahead of me. And that's just ultimately what happens. But even that couldn't push me to stick to it. Because once I got to that point where it was like, I am no longer innovative, I got bored. I didn't want to copy and paste anymore.

I, again, I'm having another watershed moment because I think so similarly to you. And again, this is like, this is our, our first, yeah, this is our first friend date essentially. But, um,

When I started this podcast, it was 2013. So before many people were listening or doing podcasts and I had some success just based on kind of similar to you starting the Instagram at that time, like it grew and it was exactly. And then I just realized this right now, help me like articulate my version of this to myself. When you said that, like,

I'm the least competitive person there ever could be. And when there is any sort of competition, I'm just like, I'm good. I'm all set. Oh, I'm exactly the same. And that's confidence. I think in the end that comes from confidence. If you don't feel like you need to be pushed to be better than someone, it's like...

you feel good. You feel solid with what you do. Well, yeah, I agree with that. And I think in some ways, like I liked that when it was this, like you were saying that 200 people that kind of like, I had that, it was blogging back then. And it was like, it was back in the dinosaur age. Yeah, exactly. And it was so, but it was so great that like, there weren't very many people doing that. I was kind of the only like,

girl talking about wellness who was doing it in a podcast or tons of blogs. But like I was kind of able to have this little corner that I felt like was just my thing. It was weird. It was over here. And then once it became a billion people just like me doing it, I

I didn't evolve and I got, I had that exact feeling like you of like, Oh, when you saw someone doing something similar to you where it's like, it is a tinge of like, I didn't love it. You know what I mean? Instead of me stopping doing it, I've continued for 12 years, but I'm actually at this point now where I'm like,

okay, either need to evolve in a completely different way, stop, do something. You know what I mean? I'm in that version because I think it is really interesting. Some people I think are pushed by that of let me make my specific area or let me go somewhere else. I guess it's not sustainable to, we won't always have that opportunity

200 people version or like that little bit. Yeah. So I don't know. That's just kind of like an abstract thought, but no, I mean, I think it's super applicable to both of our career paths because I think also ultimately, um,

We are creatives. And at least for me, I never set forth with the intention of I want to be known and I want to be famous. It matters how many people follow me and how many people see my things. But ultimately, when it came to work, it did matter. And so it's like if you want to go full commit 110 percent, you can, you know,

build that following and get really big, but then you're stuck there. Right. Right. And that's what's like so scary to me is I don't want to stick myself into a box. That's so, that's like my biggest fear. Yeah. I hate being confined. This is really interesting because it's like,

It kind of goes back for me all the way to the beginning part that blew my mind about when you were in high school and Instagram came up and changed the competitiveness of that, 'cause that's such a good point. It's like, it is part of our lives. We do kind of have to do it for work. And talk about a dichotomy of a superpower.

Instagram is a superpower. I'm probably here with you right now in a way because of it. Yeah, we wouldn't have met. We went to like, we were an influencer type event. I know. I probably wouldn't have been there if not for a, you know, someone judging me essentially by a nine square, used to be square, now rectangle grid and like a check mark, you know? Exactly. It's so bizarre, but I also love it and... It's a privilege. Yeah.

It's a privilege, but people don't recognize who aren't in that position, what it takes. I don't want to be judged by a bunch of random people.

truthfully. Like that's just, I didn't sign up for that. I want to do all these cool things and like be true to myself, but I don't, I don't want to do it all for a huge audience. And so I'm, you're forced to do that in a way. Right. So how do you, cause again, something else I have on my, on my notes somewhere was about social media because you're, you're obviously very good at it. It's obviously part of your life. How do you,

How do you wrestle with that? Because like, where are you with it now? Where it's like, you have to kind of, it's, you know, the zaps, like it's gotten you so much, but it's also, yeah. How do you, where are you with it? It's really interesting. I think it's,

I think it's shifted a lot since I kind of made that decision to step away. So like I said, I did not involve myself in my Instagram when I started. I was not a person. And then as I became... You know, I was networking and just kind of growing my circles in LA. I was...

kind of realizing that Instagram is also a way to get to know people that you don't, we don't have the time to, I mean, I'm so busy. I don't have the time to spend with people all the time. I enjoy kind of seeing snippets of other people's life, even the people who I just work with. The way to keep in touch. Yeah. And so I was like, I want to be a normal person and like post a picture of me and my boyfriend or like my mom. Yeah. I want to involve myself. Yeah.

So when I made that decision to step away from the kind of influencer thing and not take those deals, and by influencer, I mean doing brand work. I pretty much stepped away from brand work because it felt like inauthentic.

And as I did that and I started posting some of my ceramics sometimes, I was definitely shook a little bit because it was like I went from getting sometimes like 10,000 likes on something to, oh, you get 200 likes. And I was like, oh, my ceramics must suck. Oh, my art, my other art sucks. You know, it was just like.

It was difficult. And I started to, but I stuck with it. It was uncomfortable, but I was like, well, this is what I chose. And you were aware why? I was aware why. I mean, it's an algorithm and I understood the algorithm for the most part. I mean, I had been working with the algorithm for,

work at that point right so I understood it I think that's interesting though it's like I understand it doesn't make it less easy it doesn't yeah no exactly you can understand it and it still feels personal right I know god dude same yeah so over the past couple years as I've started to kind of make my Instagram a place for me to post all my creative things I've

I lost a decent amount of followers from that initial push of like food world. People who were just like, oh, she makes beautiful food. Yeah, I too have been on a similar journey. And then I've also gained a lot of followers from people who I admire, people who I never thought would follow me.

You know, and I'm just kind of like, that's such a cool thing that you somehow found my work and found it interesting. Is there one that you can... No, I don't want to. It's so embarrassing. But...

Yeah, I don't know. I just, I feel like proud of that, but it is hard because I definitely got accustomed to the number. Yeah. Like it was a little bit of a shock to be like, oh, I don't get the same amount of validation. Yeah, yeah. And I can't, you know,

get work anymore the same way. I used to get paid front, like Meta paid me. Oh, wow. Yeah. I used to get paid through Instagram because I had really high engagement. And that was the thing is about authenticity is like, I had such a strong community that I had so much genuine engagement from people who

I built a community with. So like, even though I didn't even have that many followers, Metta paid me because my engagement was like higher than my followers. You're more valuable to people who do. Exactly. So I got paid through that and got a lot of brand partnerships and,

So it was difficult. And that was where I said that I like self-sabotaged is just, I felt like, wow, I had something going for me and now I'm at square one and I keep going back to square one and it's frustrating. And there's definitely days where I'm just like, well, why can't I just do it all? And people just like that. Why can't I just be one of those people? Because I will sometimes want to post my food styling, but then I'm like,

well, people are posting crazy food styling now and so no one will like mine or I've already shifted away from that or I'm working more in prop styling right now or product styling and so it makes more sense for me to just post that and it just becomes this mind game of what do I post? I know, I know and I think

ultimately the, what do you post when you're thinking about it in terms of what will do well? Yeah. It's like, I guess having a niche and people knowing what it is and they come to you for that. Yeah. I think if I'm really being honest and like looking back at my account, um,

I used to, when I, you know, when I first started, well, when I first started it, it was just, you know, and it was, this is also, you know, you were, you were in the womb at this moment, but. In 1920. Right. In 1920 when I, when I started Instagram, but you know, I was just in college and it was just my first iPhone, whatever. And it was very much the rise filter in my coffee or whatever. Right. But I am indeed a millennial. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I'm not forgotten. Oh, God. Don't you worry about it. Oh, no. My next question is how can I get you to forget that I'm a millennial? I think coming to your apartment helped. Oh, no. You're cool. You're chill. It's not too millennial. No, it's not. It's not. I think millennial. I don't like to throw shade. I don't like to yuck people's yum, truthfully. But...

I don't know, a room full of... Are you afraid of what I'm going to say? I thought you were thinking my... I'm sure it is millennial in many ways, but... No, it's really not. I think what's millennial to me, what sticks out immediately is like a room full of like beige and rattan, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like that is... Oh. Yeah, don't look to the left. All right, yeah.

There's not that much for John. No, I'm not going to forget that you're a millennial. But I think actually... But I'm not. I'm a four boomer or whatever that was. You're like front and board. I'm 106. You're 106. I think, yeah. You're 106. You were born in 1920. So I'm not any of these bozo generations. No, that's crazy. But what were you going to say about generalizing on... Yeah, on generations? It was going to be good. I could tell. Oh, yeah.

I don't remember. Oh, shoot. Well, I guess the thing with Instagram, I'll go back there, but then we'll circle back to generation. I can see us getting tired. Yeah. Are you okay to keep going for a tiny bit? Oh, no, I'm totally fine. Actually, I'm actually... This is maybe good. No, I think this is good. We actually are thinking more. This is my plan. I get us loosened up a little bit, and then we kind of forget we're recording, and it becomes pillow talk, sleepover. Yeah, no, I like that. I like that.

Like, I think for me, it was like, there was this moment, you know, it grew really quickly. I had my, like, kind of my version of the 200 people. And then, you know, you just evolve. Like, you do. And if you don't evolve...

that's worse because it would be terrible to be the same person that you were 10 years ago. And I was super into wellness when I started. And so I grew with that community. And then when my book came out, it was very much like around that. And then I had this, and I would share the podcast episodes on mine and people came to me for that. And then, um,

Similarly to you, I just made it more about my life little by little by little. And then I had this moment and I lived in New York and when I moved from Detroit to New York, it became... Midwesterner goes to New York a bit. But that was kind of... The big road trip. Yeah, and it all kind of kept going with me. And it was really on the up and up, like slowly, but going. And then at that point, I...

I made another, and this is my like feeling like I shot myself in the foot a little bit or feeling like I self, I sabotaged. I decided to make, let it out a separate one to make the podcast a separate one, a separate Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I really wanted to be like, I am this, but it's not me. You're more than that. Yeah. Or just like the, then mine was just like my personal. And then, then I don't even live in New York anymore. Now I'm here. And now I'm like, you know, it's people are like,

all right, she's here. She's there. What is even happening here now? It's her. No one really knows what I'm doing. Yeah. And now I use Instagram as like for my friends. Yeah. Yeah. Like two, it makes sense, but it, it does, but it's like, obviously the people on there are not, I don't know that many people. So I'm like, who are these people? I think my general advice that I give to people around this, because I struggle with this too is,

is that unless you are offering a service, you need to remain with one Instagram. If you have a service, like if you're like, you know, a nail tech or someone who does hair or something like, yeah, you should have a separate Instagram for that. Because they won't want to show that their clients might not want to see their dog. I think it should be a specific place where people can go to inquire, inquire within. Yeah.

But I think anything else, and I struggled with this for a long time. Because I was going to ask you, did you ever think to just make a burner? I struggled. Oh, and I had a burner before I started Blue and Cyrus Make Good Food. Right, right, right. I had a regular Instagram. And then I realized that, okay, first of all,

Social media is taxing. We already know that. Right. It's so mentally exhausting. Managing, switching between your work personality and your person personality and your, this objective and this marketing tactic is so complicated and inauthentic and genuinely unethical.

Like you said, it's like having a niche is what brings you the most attention. And so for me, I think if I don't have a niche, the most authentic thing I can do is be authentic. The most niche thing I can do is be authentic.

Not a lot of people are authentic. And you have the, you have the monopoly on you being authentic. Yeah. I'm like, no one can, yeah, no one can monopolize that. Yeah. I'm like, good, good luck. No, you're so right. Yeah. Because, and I, I'm kind of been, you know, and I, I do it as like the big joke that I'm always saying is like, let it out. Turn it, let it out with three Ts. Turns out it's also me, but let it out. Social media manager.

is so horrible yeah because it would take that person who is me is so long you having the facade okay i have to interject i'm so sorry please the most hilarious part about

Getting to this age in LA of people starting companies is that every fucking person wants you to think that their company is so big and it's all just two people in their fucking like bedroom. Like, I swear to God. And it's so funny. Like, I weirdly found it the other day, but I have mentioned this to you, I think, before we started recording. And there's this whole, right?

Before I moved here where there was an era, we'll call it, to when I... Oh no, never mind. Take that word back. That really leans into millennial. You're a millennial. Screams millennial. Fuck. We need like a bell. I know. The millennial bell. We'll take a drink. We're going to be wasted. Except I'm not. It's just going to be you. It's the only millennial here. We both have to take a drink. Except I'm 30 in theory, so I may act...

You're on the cusp, at least. I said, actually, yesterday, or a couple days ago, I was on a hike, and I told Cy, I was like, let's take a pic for the memes. And he was like, are you 42 years old? Like, why would you say that? And I was like, oh, no. What's memes? Like, memories. Oh, I like it. For the memes. But I would... Okay, that's take a drink. Yeah, yeah, that's take a drink. We have to play. I think any millennial...

shortening your words and adding like Zs and shit. That feels Australian to me. That feels... I don't know. I think I feel that I'm getting old because I'm paying attention to age groups now. For so long, I was 12. No, I... Okay, I remember two years ago because when I moved here, it was... I was 29. And...

I never thought about generations. I like vaguely knew I'd heard Gen X, you know, and I was just like, they're the coolest. They have the best music. Everyone likes them. They're the ones you want to be. That's like our parents, right? Not mine. Wait, how old are your parents? My parents are boomers for sure because my mom's 60. My mom's 60. My mom's not 60. She's 64. Okay. Then my parents might be boomers as well. They might be boomers. Gen X is like...

40. I mean, I don't really know. We can look it up. Let me contact our research department here who again, cause this is a giant company, um, is a whole, exactly. I actually, it's funny like sitting in front of you doing this podcast. I've always imagined a podcast is like, I don't know. You're like filmed and you're, well, that's my nightmare, but you're like,

into the same microphone and sitting next to each other or something. No, funny. I don't know, like my vision of it is like dark room, like recording video style. That is probably like better for acoustics and what some are. Right, right. And that might be why I think of that. Okay, our research department has returned to us with some info. Okay. So millennials are born from 81 to 2000. When were you born? Excuse me?

81 to 2000 that's not real does that put you into my category that's not real

I'm 1998. Am I? I'm so sorry. No, I've heard that I'm a, I'm definitely Gen Z. No, Gen Z starts in 1995. That's wrong. Okay. Our research department's getting fired. Let's, yeah. Let's send that back. This was from Google. Let's see. Which part of Google? The regular one. The Wikipedia one or what? The one that like comes up. That's it. That just tells you that. Yeah. We don't trust that. Well, I don't trust it only because I've looked it up so many times. Yeah.

I know. Okay. Let's go. Let me get a different source. My older sister is Gen Z. Okay. Research is going to have to come back with us, but, oh, here we go. It's fine. I'm not a millennial. Oh, here's some new information. Right. Oh God. You want to know what comes after? Yeah. After boomers. So technically what I am being 106 ages, 74 to 91. It doesn't go as far as me, but guess what? That, do you know that ages that generation called? No. Silent. Okay.

They said shut up. That feels like weirdly gross and scary. Yeah. Okay, Gen Z, it says here... They said don't talk to us. Ages 7 to 22. Millennials, ages 23 to 38. Generation X, 39 to 54. No, this is bullshit. Oh, wait, wait, wait. This could be wrong because... Oh, shit. I'm wrong because this was...

Okay, this is why our research department is getting fired because this article was published on January 17th, 2019. Damn straight. So we need to add...

We need the math department. Six years. Fuck. We don't have a math department here. All right. Well, whatever. You're a Gen Z. I'm unfortunately a millennial. But okay. What I was going to say about the generations is I had this moment because I never thought about it when I was younger at all because you just didn't. And it was also, I knew I was a millennial. Like I'd heard that word, but the Gen Z didn't really. And I was the...

I was in the age bracket of the marketed to young, cool generation because I was in my early 20s. And like I was saying about turning 34, it was like this switch flipped where I was like, oh my God, Gen Z is cool. We're cringe. When did that happen? I was at dinner with Captain, my friend who's Gen X properly and one of the coolest people I know. And I remember being at dinner with him and chatting and being like,

God, I just, I never even thought about generations, but like now with Gen Z, I'm like, did you ever like feel that way about the generation behind you? And remember when it shifted, when they started marketing to this other generation and not be you. And he just goes, yeah, it was you bozos. Cause it was, that's, that's literally how I feel right now. Like I'm like, what's the next one called?

Like, gen alpha. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right now, I would say that my generation is the coolest. How do you... You seem to know... You seem to be an expert on generations. The other thing I'm feeling is, like, Gen X, how do they get away unscathed? I would like to be... Either join them or... No, why are you... Well, sorry, no. You continue. But I think you know what I mean. I'm assuming what you're going to say, but I want you to finish. Yeah, I feel like you're going to do it better.

And then I'll tell you what I was going to say. I think why... Okay, I think why... Lily and I do this all the time. We're like, she'll complete a thought. And I'll be like, actually, no, but that's better. I think we need to meet you and Lily because... Yeah, I would love it. I love Lily. Maybe we call her during the end of this. We should. I think me and Lily just had some weird... I was like, right? Me and... Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the reason...

things shifted from your generation, like why they got by is the same reason why they, like they didn't have technology. It was the same reason where they could do, they could do embarrassing shit and not ever be like called out for it. And all my embarrassing shit's online. And even people getting called out later in life, it still really started with

around millennials you know it's not like Gen X people aren't they kind of got by and it's because marketing efforts and increased with technology and the generations feel more like the other thing I was what I was trying to say to Captain I think in like that feeling I was having was less about wow when did you realize that you weren't the marketed to young generation and more about like

feel like a bigger deal now. They do. And I think that's just because of the internet. Absolutely. The internet is like in tears. But I do think that we...

I think because of the internet and the advancements, I think we are all marketed to individually. Right. Which is not... The monoculture has gone away. Yes. So it's no longer whoever is in the know is the one we're marketing to. We're marketing to middle-aged people. We're marketing, you know, everyone's in their niche. Everyone's marketing...

To whatever. When I've worked with brands, one of my favorite things to say was I don't... I personally don't market to like an age group, but I market to brand bitches, which tends to be millennials. Because brand bitches to me equals... That's what I call them. I call them brand bitches because they're the people who are willing. They maybe have kids, maybe they don't. And they probably have a good enough job that they can pay for things for the name of it. And so they're...

That is really annoying. There's an interesting sound. There's an interesting sound outside. They're willing to invest. I say ooh because I'm like, I don't want to be part of a group. I want to be different and weird and over here. I know, but that's just how it goes. And that's what I realized as...

Am I a brand? A brand bitch? Yes. A brand blank? I don't know. I don't see any. No, I mean, I... There's an R-paste hand if you look closely. Yeah, that is, I would say, right, right, right, right. Plug. Beep.

But feel free. Open to it. But so, yeah, I think there are now marketing techniques that are trying to market to the broader picture, but it still ends up being a categorical age. You know, inevitably. You see this so clearly. And this is always something that like I...

Have a lot of... And I think it's been like why... Well, to go back to my Instagram trajectory of like steadily growing and then the joke I keep making now is it's been steadily declining. Yeah. But slowly. No, that's all right. I think that's how a lot of people feel. I will say that like I know really successful people who did do the opposite of what we did. Yeah.

stuck to it, did their thing, kept in their niche, and they're still going down because the algorithm has shifted. We weren't taught...

to change every technological target. So now it's super quick videos or it's videos that are super quick and repeating with all the information in the caption so that it's replaying over and over again while you read the caption. And that's a good point. So it's kind of like practice makes perfect and developing a craft.

doesn't even matter with social media because we're with Instagram, let's say, because you just, I could have gotten really good at what I was doing that worked a decade ago and it doesn't even work now. So you might as well just do what you like. And that's why I feel, yeah. And that's why I completely support that way. And it's like, as much as I feel like I self-sabotage and I know you might feel that too, is like,

we would have eventually hit that point anyway. It doesn't matter. Like I just feel like... And we would be miserable. Yeah, I just feel like Instagram as a platform is a... It's a selling platform. It's a sales platform. Yeah. There's no genuine, authentic success anymore. It's all algorithm-based. So you can't win anyway. And that's why it's kind of nice to try and focus on in real life success, quote unquote. But...

I think what's hard about that also is like we live in LA and so yes we want community but we also don't have community. The community isn't an inherent thing so it's that back and forth of like we don't have an inherent community here that's just not a thing. We live in a huge city

And there's so many different little bubbles and niches. And so we keep turning back to Instagram, searching for our community and not finding it and then coming back to in real life. And it's just, it's like a back and forth and neither one feels successful. And I think it's like making a lot of people depressed. Yeah. And I think it's, this was years ago when I asked this, but I was talking about this podcast

portion of the conversation with someone and he made this analogy where he was like Instagram is like inviting everyone you've ever known or met to your office and so it's like your high school teacher your mom's friend the person you have a crush on that person you met that one time and you're like this is what I'm working on or this is who I am and it's all sort of mixed and yeah and I think our

My desire, I guess, to segment it where I was like, put it as the podcast or you to keep you over here and this over there comes from. Let me try to keep you guys over here and you guys over here. But like the thing is that that's not even in our none of it's in our control. It's not in our control.

We're no matter what, what we share is going to be promoted to the people who are interested in it. Right. And that might not be even your best friends. Right. Some of my closest friends will be like, I haven't seen you post anything in forever. Yeah. You know, it's just, it's not, and it's because they support me, but maybe they don't give a fuck about food styling. Yeah. Maybe they don't care about like,

You know, and that's fine, but it's shifted. It is now equivalent to LinkedIn, in my opinion. Right, right. It's not fun anymore, really. And Instagram is like having a mirror on us at all times. If we didn't live with mirrors, we wouldn't consume so much. We wouldn't be influenced to...

buy so many different clothes and makeup products and you would only be perceived maybe you know what the thing if we didn't have mirrors we'd probably put a lot of money into our feet because we'd be seeing that but other than that what are we seeing right you know what I mean wow that's this is like brings a whole nother conversation of like body image and yeah I mean this is a huge part food and all of it I mean this could be like a short film really of like a long film yeah a future film

But, I mean, that was something I often thought about, like, with eating disorder stuff. Of, like, if I can just... When I feel the worst about perception and how I look, if I try to just think of myself as a pair of eyes and, like, not in an avoiding mirror sort of a way, but, like, observing what... How I perceive the world. Mm-hmm.

But the reality is that life is sort of a mirror too. People are gonna reflect to you their perception, but that's often closer to reality than our perception of ourselves, especially when we're depressed. - Exactly. It sounds like you just took drugs.

You're like, and that's reality. And weirdly, you're with me. I'm with you. So I feel like you did too. I hear you. I think... But I got really in. You got deep. You got deep. I think that is what describes the algorithm. The algorithm is looking at you.

And reflecting back onto you how you think you see yourself. Or it's just, you're, it's limiting us and it's limiting other people. I personally want to see, I want to see everything my friends are doing. Yeah. I don't care if I don't like it.

It doesn't have to be my thing. I want to support them and I want to see them and I just want to know what they're doing. And it's so frustrating that this algorithm has gone so far in one direction as to cut out anyone who is an outlier of interest. And that's really boring. It's so boring. I'm so bored. I actually deleted Instagram for three weeks somehow, but it was unsustainable. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, I'm trying to think like,

The times, it's so baffling how it can sway us of the extra validation of it all. I just feel...

I know we don't live in a meritocracy and we don't even live in like a... But I do think I believe in like whatever is... I'm kind of processing this as I'm saying it. Like good things will rise to the top. And by good, I really mean authentic. Yeah. And I guess... Okay, a recent case study I have of this is I made this... It was one night I had...

I was feeling so bummed and I was making this joke when I broke my leg. Like, I think this did give me some gallows humor and I was watching everybody's stories and everyone was in Europe and it was summer and I didn't left the house and day, you know, and I showered truly. I was like in a rough spot and I,

Just like made this video in like five minutes of me doing this little bit of like I met someone I want to introduce you and You know spoiler alert. He's here. I'll introduce you to him later. But anyway, well, I'll just show you right? He's actually my uncle calls me Do you have anyone special in your life?

And I'm like, yeah, I'm with Gary and a lot of special people. But now I really do have something. This is my boyfriend. And I just want you to meet him, Blue. He's actually perfect. The perfect man. And he looks really old. Yeah, well, we've been together for a year. So how dare you? But I did meet him on Valentine's Day last year. Do you want to just describe him for everyone at home? He's a little bit dry. Yeah, he's melting because he's so hot. He's melting. He's sexy.

Thank you. I do like his heart panties. He's sweet and decadently rich, just how a man ought to be. I like how his nose is smushed in. Whoa. The perfect man. This video's gotten like, you know, 10,000 views. It's pretty good. And I don't... And it was just like me doing the most goofy. And that's the kind of thing that's like...

I, that getting, I did not do that to like promote my thing or do anything, but I, it does reinforce my belief that like, not that that was good, but it was certainly real. And like how I was feeling in the moment. And like, anytime that people do that, I like to believe that like,

something that feels true to someone and someone having fun. And I mean, I guess it goes back to like that Bowie quote of, you know, where he's like, whenever I was thinking about the audience, the work always suffered. But when I was doing something for me, it was, and it was most fun. That's when it ends up being the best. Do you believe that? I believe that. I absolutely media too. I believe that. But I feel like I'm at this weird place in my life where they are inter it's intertwined with my,

my just financial stability completely and I'm actually new new thought exclusive exclusive behind the scenes I'm like considering getting a normal job the same like I'm like do it together yes I'm always on the fence but I've kind of I've actually applied and I think we're talking about this yeah I've gotten pretty far and speaking with some companies where I'm like look

I have no relative experience, but also all of my experience is relative. And I've gone pretty far in that. I'm kind of at the point where I'm like, maybe my creative strengths will build if I focus on something else. Yeah. Not creative. I think that I'm going to forever be cyclical. And I think that's just how I function. And accepting that is...

really important I think for my process but it also is scary because I'm like okay great so I'm gonna work really hard get a really good job do that for a year and then get bored like that sucks but also that's just my reality but then there's also part of me who's like there's this big world that I don't know about and I love learning and I love like jumping into something that I don't know about that seems to be something I thrive in and jumping into the back end of some type of company and

and understanding the business side of things would be really interesting and I think would propel me even further in everything I do know. So I also think it's super valuable. I'm just kind of...

Like, let me pay my rent, feel secure and also be creative. And let's just let the universe give me what it needs to with that combination of things. Yes. And I think something that I always think about, as you know, you know, I worked a full time job for six years and did all this on the side. And now that I it's been six years without a full time job doing all this. Sometimes I'm like,

what am I doing? I've gotten like way less done the years I didn't have a job, you know? No, exactly. And you said that to me, you said that you were focusing way more. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's kind of the thing, like we were saying earlier about puts the fire under you. Like Norma Kamali said in this podcast once, like when you, the more you do, the more you can do, like it opens up your capacity. I agree. I love doing, I'm a very do, do, do. Yeah. And then I'm like,

you know, lock myself in my room for a few days. Yes. And I think that like, I struggle with stopping once I get started, but I also struggle with starting, you know? Oh, I'm 100% agree. Yes. And I think having your, and maybe this is separate, but having your safety, security, wellbeing, like being able to pay your rent taken care of is like such a huge,

creative, it just increases your creative capacity, I think, because you don't have to put the pressure on the creative work to make you money. So you can take the risks of like, it doesn't matter what you do. Yes. And when I felt that from my creative ventures, it's not as fruitful, honestly, because I have, I mean, I've been doing this to mostly support myself, if not only for a few years now. And I, I,

At times, I'm like, wow, it's crazy how much I am valued for my work. But then I'm also like, well, if I'm valued, I don't feel like pushing myself any further. So it's kind of just... It feels like a lose-lose sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think that you...

You doing so many things, and this is kind of something that I wanted to talk to you about anyway. Looking through all of your projects, you obviously have your own unique style. And I can see a through line through everything that you're doing, whether it's events or brands. And it's really cool. And there's obviously, like you were saying, there's a style that has become in the ether. But you seem so visionary and...

And we've kind of already talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious how much in the last few years that you've been working in all these different ways, have you noticed, and you already mentioned that you did notice some trends, but...

Have you noticed your style evolve and be influenced? Like how much does that influence you and do you actively have to draw inspiration outside of it or not look at certain things? That's so interesting that you say that because I don't see a through line in any of my work. I cannot define my aesthetic for the life of me. I've literally put...

shit into chat GPT and been like, please tell me, please. I beg of you. Tell me what my style is. I have no idea. I can't tell. I see it like that. And that makes sense. But I can't even, I can't answer that question because I have no idea. All I can say for sure is that I have realized recently that with, okay, maybe in the past two years, um,

I started to realize that I love quality. And obviously that's just part of, I think being an artist is quality, but I realized that my closet got super uninspiring to me because I started getting really nice clothes and

And all my clothes are so nice and so beautiful and like handcrafted. I know this sounds so pretentious, but they're gorgeous, incredible, beautiful pieces. And you're not wearing them. And I'm not wearing them. And I'm like, all I want to wear is my like paint splattered pants and my disgusting giant t-shirts. I've had a similar. Yeah. You just got to get those dirty. No, yes. But I've actually recently realized that I think

having like, I think that a lot of my initial drive and inspiration came from having very little, um,

And now that I've earned more, it's difficult for me to find the same inspiration. And it's not that I want to like cosplay and be like, let me just revert back. Like I'm proud of where I've gotten, but I also feel like I've lost parts of myself. Yeah, you're evolving. I'm evolving and I'm also trying to find the middle ground. I am overly influenced. And at the same time,

I'm like, these things are disgusting. Does that make sense? I'm overly influenced by everything around me. I think in the past few years, there's been a really beautiful, um,

combination of design and art and products and marketing everything has become gorgeous I mean think of anything that you buy down to your toothpaste there's now designers who really work hard to make those things seamless with the rest of your life and gorgeous in your space and I think that's beautiful and that's what I once aspired to do and at the same time I'm like

It just feels a little... It becomes really boring. I'm like, give me the raw, rustic part of me back. And so I think I'm...

I think it's a good realization. It's a pendulum swing. And I think collectively we're in that too. Kind of even the generation thing too, where it's like the curated whatever's out, the like messiness is in. Definitely. I'm going back to utility a little bit. Yeah. And I think that that's where I started and that's where I'm comfortable. And I don't think that my way is like my way or the highway. I think that it's just a lot of people are swinging back to whatever they felt their most authentic.

And I feel... Okay, one of the funny things about me is that my name is Blue. And my favorite color is blue. And my eyes are blue. Blue looks good on me. And I would say if you looked in my closet, like most of it is blue. But in past...

maybe like two or three years I've realized how much of my clothing is blue and I've been like I need to change I need to get rid of this I need to get other colors in there and now when I look back I'm like okay I actually would be totally fine being like a character in a little show that wears the same outfit every day yeah and it's all blue and I love the way I feel in it and the way I look in it and I don't care that's cliche and everyone's gonna ask me

Is that your name and your color and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, that's fine. That's how I feel good. So I'm just like reverting back to what feels good. It's not, it's not that I think people are reverting back to what is right. It's just, just find who you were before all this shit like started penetrating our brains and our daily lives and just, just go back a little bit.

Oh my God, so true. Because I feel like I've had that same thing where it's like something I was really, that was my identity that I was really good. Like I made this zine and I did a, I'll give you one, don't let me forget. But I did this launch party and my friend interviewed me and I read one out loud, whatever, and

they were like, well, what's next? And I was like, what's funny is like the zine was a book of essays and a book, it was a printout for my friends that I made. But essentially like I used to have a column for this magazine that was called Pivot and it was about my Saturn return and the end of my twenties. And so I was going through old things and I collected a portion of them and essays written during that time as this. And I had a plan to put

journal prompts after them and it was a little self-healthy but I was like that's not cool like all my friends are writers and they write essays and I don't want and I'm like no I wrote a fucking self-help book when I was 25 yes that's embarrassing but it is what I did and now I kind of with the gag of it all is I kind of think my friends who I wanted to like oh I write essays and like I don't actually I'm not into self-help but now I think they'd actually think that's kind of cool I think that

people are drawn to us for our authentic selves and it's so funny that we tend to like try and shift who we are around them and pretend to be something that we're not yes because the people who are around me i know that they love me for me but i'm constantly like oh when i'm with this person i'm thinking about this and when i'm with this person i'm thinking about this but it's like they don't give a fuck

then no one cares and no one just be yourself notices and people fall in love with authenticity they do realness yeah and it's what makes you right through it and it's what makes us i think fall in love with ourselves i think that's like the biggest thing that has pushed me to find authentic me and go back to authentic me over and over again is that every time i lose it i'm like why do i like

just not feel connected with myself and not like myself. And it's not like a self hate thing. It's just that I'm not being me. Yeah. There's specific things that if I were to show you, um,

five images, you know, maybe two of them you just kind of light up at and be like, ooh. And then three of them you'd be like, okay. Yeah, that's so interesting. And that means nothing about you other than like that is who you are. It doesn't, it's not like someone's going to judge you and be like,

That one is the lame one. You shouldn't have gotten excited about that one. You know what I mean? Completely. Going back to the mirror thing, I feel like what we all want is to be seen and loved for our authentic selves, who we really are, and understood. But it's so painful to be...

misunderstood. Yeah. That we're like, to prevent that, we'll be some like version of ourselves and we won't actually get to be seen and loved for who we really are. But at least you won't have to feel the pain of the other things. So we just, I'll speak for myself. I will just, I'll just take this like, at least they don't hate me, but it's kind of like medium. But that just starts to, over time, erode at us. Absolutely. And makes it, and over anything, it makes us feel disconnected from each other and ourselves. And, um,

I think the part that I often have said on this show is I think

what I want to do is get better at being myself little by little. And that might mean at some point, like a complete departure and a pendulum swinging or over correction, but it's always kind of like you said, cycling back to the same thing. And the older we get, hopefully we have a bigger sample size or we have a bigger like support system to stay in it. But yeah, I,

I mean, it's kind of like what I was saying earlier of when you're stuck on the hamster wheel and then just pre-record. But when you're stuck on the hamster wheel, the only way to like,

shift and get back on is to get off. And sometimes that means shifting what's happening with our lives, but no one's realizing it the same way that we are. We're overthinking these things. I know I'm a creative person and I'm an artist and it doesn't really matter just going back to all the career stuff. It doesn't really matter if I'm doing food styling or making ceramics or...

making some type of art you said it yourself that you saw through line in that and that proves to me that it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what i do okay we're gonna stop there but i will be back next week with part two we get into so much more and as i always say the second half of this show is where things really come alive always when i split this into two parts so i'm

See you back here, same place next week. And in the meantime, follow Blue everywhere. Blue Most, Blue Make Good on Instagram, as you've heard. All will be linked in the show notes. You can read the bio that I...

loved so much I read out loud here. You can read that yourself if you click on the on her website and I'll talk to you next week. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone who left really nice messages in the last sub stack I wrote. I made the title of it It Took Me Six Years to Write This which sounds very clickbaity and perhaps it is. Did it work? It really did take me six years though so that's um

I am a slow writer and I wanted to write about that honestly and I think I just couldn't close to it. I needed time so I wrote about a breakup and that is the breakup that led me to write a zine a couple years ago about breakups and I recently reprinted that zine with a new

and it's available. We did a little launch party for it or relaunch here in LA and it's available online.

your local zine store, hopefully. Definitely some here in LA. It's at the one in my neighborhood and they're at Skylight and a few places around. And I'll mail you one if you want one. And if you become a paid subscriber to my sub stack, I will give you a zine. It's part of it. It is included in the membership. So links to that are in the show notes, but no pressure for any of it or anything.

anything at all. I am so grateful that Blue took so much time to talk to me and I got to ask her whatever I wanted to know. And I am so grateful to you for spending time with us listening. I'll talk to you next week. And until then, you know where to find me and I'll, I can't wait. Okay. Bye.