Micro-Hysterical Moments: Amanda Chantal Bacon on shame, aging, dating, the myth of balance, and more!
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This is just a very quick pre-intro to the introduction you're about to hear for the episode to say that what you're about to hear makes no mention of the U.S. election at all. And that is because it was recorded quite a bit before I recorded the intro you're about to hear several weeks ago.

and the actual interview was recorded at the end of the summer. So we don't talk about the intensity of this news cycle. I hope that listening to something completely unrelated might be a balm on what has been a very stressful couple of weeks in the news, especially the last week in particular.

for everyone. So here's that conversation. That's why there's no mention of it. Here we go. Here it is.

I do have moments of passion that I think really keep me coming back every morning to chop wood and carry water again, because I definitely feel like that is my life phase, chop wood and carry water. And so I think that keeps me going. Some of the just the tactical things that I mentioned to keep the body and mind healthy and on the rails, but also a feeling of faith, hope, and then hope.

Maybe just the discipline of being able to get out of bed every morning and keep my body moving despite my head saying, this is impossible. Hi, welcome back. My name is Katie Dillbout. You're about to hear a conversation that I honestly really loved. I have been doing this podcast for what feels like a very long time, and I think the reason why I continue is because of...

like this one where I get to talk to someone who I want to talk to and might not have gotten to without having it recorded for this platform. And,

And getting an hour of their time to see where it goes and let it meander into directions that it might not have in a social setting or in any other place. And not only that, but to get to have you here also to listen and talk about it further and see what you think and add to the conversation and

And that's what we get to do here every so often. And this week it's with Amanda Chantal Bacon. You know her as the founder of Moon Juice. And today you're going to hear her speak really candidly and honestly about...

So many topics. We start by talking about shame and that was not on my list, but we get there through a backdoor you're about to hear and we talk about that and acceptance and imperfection, learning to like your shadow, editing out, saying sorry too much,

Becoming less apologetic in general, society's obsession with youth. We talk quite a bit about aging and death and bodies. And some of these one-liners of hers that I've remembered over the years that she said, like micro hysterical moments. We talk about this book that we both read and loved that I'm sure all of you have read or heard of this year, All Fours by Miranda July. And

We use that, you know, a bit to talk about a lot of these topics, death and aging and intergenerational friendships and the importance of having them. We talk about how life can change in a second and love having its own timeline. We talk about reframing failure and the catharsis and that. And the myth of...

having it all and knowing that you know you might not be able to have it all at the same time mourning different life phases and missing a time when things felt different or or more fun and anyway I found this conversation incredibly comforting and compelling and I really enjoyed talking to her so I

Here it goes. I hope you enjoy listening. Thank you so much for being here. And I'll talk to you at the end. Gosh, this is so cool. I was so happy when your team reached out because it had actually been on my list to reach out to you and get to talk to you for the podcast for years. And so I'm so happy that we're doing this. I am too. I mean, an hour plus,

With Zoom off and headphones in and just talking to you is just about the most luxurious thing that lives in my calendar these days. Oh, good. Yeah, you can legs up the wall. You can walk around. Yeah, there's something I heard Terry Gross talk about how

for her Fresh Air interviews, she usually has people call in from a studio. And, you know, this is like years ago before the pandemic when Zoom was really came to its fame, the height of its fame, maybe. But people, she would never have video and that didn't actually like doing them in person because people were more honest. And I think it's like confession in Catholic school, you know, like if you can do the behind the screen. So I think people are...

Yeah, there's a there's a looseness that comes to it that makes it more like pillow talk or or a phone call that I like. Did you go to Catholic school? I did. Did you? No, I didn't. And that sounds so ancient. I know. Ancient. I am 140 years old. The way that you casually threw that into conversation. I was like, oh, my God, did you? Is this part of I mean, this must be.

part of your subconscious? I guess so. Like, are you working with your Catholic school? Actually, my mother went to Catholic school. Are you familiar with confession, like behind the screen? I'm familiar with confession. And so was this a regular part of your life as a child? This is so, this part was so not in my notes, but I love it. I mean, it

It wasn't not in my childhood. Like we had first communion, which is also so weird and strange. And then also confession, like around the same time, I think like second grade, but you could choose if you do face to face with the priest and tell him your sins or

or behind the screen where you don't have to see him and tell him your sins. And this whole operation that I've been doing for 11 years is called Let It Out, which maybe now that I'm thinking about it, some subconscious confession. Katie, I just got to call it like this.

Catholicism is still really alive in you I think like throw your notes out because you just turned this into a Catholic confession sacrament yeah this is a sacrament um if you could just kick us off if you feel comfortable like what were your sins in second grade do you remember oh my god this is so good I

I remember doing some like actual bad things. I don't remember what they were or how bad they were, but just trust me that they were actually bad. But instead of confessing those, because, you know, that was like lying and bad stuff. And I, I just, I couldn't go there with the priest. I made up a sin to bring to confession, which was like,

You know, like a like immediate, like a easy sin. And it was I took I said I was taking one cookie, but I took two cookies. It was like a really I had a whole backstory for it. That was a full lie. So I think I'm definitely going to hell. I think this is pretty wild and deep. And I think we could.

It's bizarre. We could get into the whole thing around sin and that is something that lives in our culture. And I don't know, probably would be more interesting to you and I is like sins put on women. Maybe we're more, we have more expertise there and like what that, but that's pretty deep that, you know, in second grade,

You're having to confront your sins that even now as an adult, you're telling me were really bad things. And I feel like I want to tell you, no, Katie, I don't think you were doing anything really bad in second grade. Am I absolved? Yes. You're not going to hell. You didn't do anything really bad.

yeah, I'm just thinking about how interesting it is and, you know, a sign of intelligence, but also how interesting that you had to like get into some genius, manipulative part of yourself to like outsmart the priest and give him a decoy, a decoy sin to like distract from your, what you believe to be true sin.

It's really heavy. It really is. Oh, my gosh. It's really heavy on a Monday morning for a mom. It makes me want to cry. I know. Oh, man. Gosh. It's so funny. I was listening. It's been such a delight preparing for this and listening to you on other podcasts. And yesterday, I listened to you on our friend Lacey's podcast, and I have copious notes about what you were talking about on that one, which was mostly about what I love about

listening to different episodes is there such a time capsule of where you were in your life at that moment and you know that one was about two years ago and I had queued up a bunch of them but

hadn't listened to all of them. And I wanted to listen to the most recent one that you did. I just typed your name into iTunes and the most recent one came up and you were talking about school and your childhood. And I walked outside and I was just like walking on the block a little bit before I came back. And I, I stopped. I was like,

Oh my God. And I was kind of just zoning out. I was like, oh wow, I relate to this so much. The way you were talking about school and what teachers said about you and then the path that you took and then becoming a

starting the business and then realizing that like, oh, when you get to a certain point, the great thing is that you can hire for the things that you don't do so well. And it just reminded me so much of what I was like in school. And then now we're having this conversation about second grade and something is like,

First of all, thank you for calling me intelligent. You know, like I think when we grow up, like it sounds like we both share with the school thing being the way that it was. I think especially for girls and at the time, like I just didn't want to be bad. And so there were all these negotiations in my brain, but I always chalked it up to like I'm street smart. Like I might not be book smart, but I'm...

I have this sort of social intelligence that, you know, it's gotten me pretty far, but it's exactly that. It's like covering up the lie with another lie or like these things that, yeah, man, it's, it's, it is, it's really heavy. Yeah. Shame, you know, and you had like a really direct container for that shame, which was like, gosh, in second grade, you are, we know you're sinning.

And you are going to go to hell and you are doing bad things. And so here's a little container for you. And like, you can look at my face or not look at my face, but tell me all the bad things you've done. And so maybe there's something like honest and I don't know, I'll go out on a limb. I'm not feeling it as I'm about to say this, but perhaps that confessional container was helpful for

Yeah.

for a few days i mean how like are you confessing weekly is that a weekly thing it's a weekly thing isn't it it can be i think it could be yeah i think i mean if you go to your church it could be daily yeah i mean maybe that's like a genius thing if that works for you should we go should we end this should we go because i feel like i mean run me through if you could run me through the seven sins again and brush up but like

I am probably, I could tick all those boxes. I could tell you about all my sins. Yeah. Shame. Shame is just really intense. I feel like I've been having, you know, it's been six months at least maybe eight, nine months. And I kind of went deep into it and then I have to pull out and just get really tactical with work stuff and, and,

you know, tending to all of that. But when it feels like I have a little more space in my psyche to wander and work on stuff in life, you know, to sort of hone in on something. And I have to say this last year, there's been so much deep work that I've been doing around shame, which in talking to my husband about it, I have named it my dance with shame. And

And that is what I refer to it. But it's interesting. Here we are. Here we are talking about shame again. Yeah. I mean, I think there's this quote that when I, you know, this is called Let It Out, which I, you know, named 100 years ago. But it's kind of around shadow, right? Of like what you hold on to hurts you. And exactly like you're saying, right?

Shame dissipates when it's shared in some ways, I think. And just not having to hold on to it or, you know, if you push a beach ball down in the water, you know, that from the shadow book, then it takes so much energy. But if you just allow it to come to the top, there's not a big splash. It's not a big deal. And so I do think, you know, I wrote this book about journaling that was called Let It Out, which is like why this person

program has that name. And I do think just having some self-honesty with yourself and self-awareness can allow you to bring that into relationships, into therapy or different modalities that you're doing or whatever.

and make those actually work for you more. And that is really that first step. But I'm so glad I picked journaling as something that I wrote about because it's free and useful and I still think it's a helpful tool. But I also think that sitting in your own shit or your own shame isn't actually...

helpful for me either. And the older I get, I'm like, oh, I need some of the delusion I had when I was younger. I need actually more of that. So it's both. I don't even know if that made sense. It makes sense. I think there's also something that I feel like it's really, there was something about turning 40 for me. And I don't think this is like, you have to wait till 40 or this is something that naturally occurs at 40. It's just my timeline.

But I noticed, started to have a lot more comfort with my shadow. And I don't know how it came about, but maybe this could happen at, I think this could happen at any age. We can go back to your second grader in confessional and give, you know, visit her and give her this too. But there's something that's been really interesting.

freeing for me. And I think, you know, in my twenties and thirties, I spent so much time seeking different teachings, teachers, practices to get rid of my shadow. And like, there must be a method to it. I want to be better. I don't want to feel like, and you know, all of that work

has helped me. And there's a time and a place for everything. So I don't know where I'd be without all of those hours of work and meditation and esoteric practices and different types of therapies, who knows. But I did reach a point where I just felt like I don't want to change my personality anymore. Actually, I'm fine. My life story has been my life story. There are certain aspects of my personality that have pros and cons.

And I've got my shadow and it's never going to go away. And so there was a point at which, and I'll just call it 40, I really radically started to just befriend my shadow and see the benefits that she brings, see the protection that she brings. I always try to see her strategy and

you know, and like amend the strategy. So I've kind of put my shadow in this new place in my forties of one of my great advisors and she can be funny and powerful and hot. Like that's definitely the hotter version of me. Anyway, that's been, I think Gallo's humor.

Like I've just tried to embrace the shadow, bring the humor in, integrate her, not try to hide her, try to hide her in the ways that I definitely did in my twenties and thirties with this notion of like, I'm trying to be a spiritual person. I'm trying to get rid of all of my pain. And like, yes, that was very helpful, but like releasing trauma is one thing, releasing your shadow is

That's not a, I don't think that's a thing. So maybe releasing trauma, trying to somatically heal those things and then befriending your shadow and seeing the value in your shadow. Yeah, it's more honest, right? Like it's, and that's what they say too, even like whatever we're trying to hide takes so much energy and we have to manage. So I think it's more like, that sounds so freeing. And I think I'm,

you know, I've been thinking about this a lot too. It's funny. You said gallows humor because I, so I broke my leg and two bones in my ankle in May. I kept joking. I was like, you know what? I think this made me funnier because I, I just had to be so honest with everyone of like,

yeah, this blows and I have no ability to pretend that it doesn't. And I think that it made me closer with the people that I was just undone around. It made me realize that

how much I'm pretending all the time, usually. And something that you said, I wrote down four things that you said, just either, I don't know that I saw you say on Instagram over the years that I heard you say on a podcast. I don't know. There's four things. There's four lines of yours that

I don't know why they're like canon for me. They're like these phrases that are somehow in my brain. But anyway, one of them, you said somewhere bodies heal, I think on Instagram.

And that has just become, it's so simple and silly, but it has become a mantra for me. And whenever I like have a headache or whenever I am caught on something, I just sort of try to remember that like body's heel, man, like just keep going. And anyway, I just think, yeah, that sounds really freeing. And I'm so glad that that has happened for you in this next decade of your life. Well, I mean, it

If I made it sound like there was a system and everything was solved, please do not take that as the takeaway. But I think a new relationship to the shadow, I think there's maybe like this confidence that starts to... Confidence also doesn't feel like the right word. Zero fucks.

Sounds like a cool. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like a non-attachment sort of. Non-attachment also sounds too perfect. I think there's like. Acceptance. It's edging towards acceptance, neurofucks, confidence. Yeah, something in that. You need another one-liner for it. Yeah, no, it's like headed in that direction. But again, that sounds too like perfect and complete. But I do think the beautiful thing is,

As we gather more life experience, as you spend more time with yourself, as you navigate unthinkable, impossible things, you do arrive to this place of, oh, you know, maybe this, maybe this is the phrase, less apologetic.

You can feel less apologetic. And I mean that more in like an internal sense than an external sense. I'm still doing the little...

edit for myself where I don't say I'm sorry three times in an email I don't kick off an email with I'm so sorry um so I I'm still catching myself and editing that out and I know I say it in person all the time and that's fine but I mean like less apologetic to myself within myself yeah

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about aging and mortality and death. And I

I saw that you also read All Fours, Miranda Delis' book. And in interviews about the book or in some of her promotion for the book, she was talking about society's obsession with youth and how it makes us think that we didn't do it correctly or fully by the time it's gone or how fleeting it is. And

I'm 34, and when I turned 30, it was the beginning of the pandemic, and it was like, oh, I'm like, it's like basically I'm still in my 20s, like whatever. And 31, same thing, 32, 33. And this year is the first time where I'm like, oh, yeah.

I hadn't even like considered it before, which sounds so silly, but I just, you know, I had plenty of body image issues, plenty of vanity things, you know, insecurities, you name it, but like aging just hadn't been one of them. And then it was like,

fully here. And between reading that book and hearing her talk about it, that was my experience of feeling like I was too controlling or too pulled into wellness to have the fun part of my 20s. And now I missed it. And now I was too old. And then, you know, and Lacey said this interview, I mentioned that I listened to you and Lacey was so comforting. And

But you also mentioned too that just the simple things like sleep and falling in love and

things that kind of go by the wayside. So I would just love for you to riff on that, like aging and mortality and the fact that bodies heal and just where you are with it now. And what did you think of the book and did what she was saying about, you know, the value of youth and then moving towards the middle of life? Like, did that resonate with you at all? How did that land? Okay, I'll start with this. I've been obsessed with older women for

my whole life looking at, you know, incredible editorial pictures of older women. I mean, as a child, older female artists, writers, you know, I grew up in New York. I feel like I was surrounded by really interesting older women, photographers, like

That was so cool and interesting and powerful. And so as a little girl, I was looking at these older women. Some of them were lesbians, some of them were straight, but they were all feminists.

In like the 80s in New York, they paid their own bills. They were cool, smart, interesting, powerful, and their physical bodies did not dictate. It was how they were spending their time, what they were saying, what kind of art they were producing, what kind of impact they were having, what kind of success they were having.

I would say, you know, like as I'm scanning, if I go back, like they all were chic. And so their living environments were very cool. Their homes were really cool. Their outfits express something in them that I thought was cool. But again, like

I wasn't sitting around tracking for their beauty or how their aging process was going. If anything, like the way in which I think our society can revere men for looking older and wiser and more powerful and sexy. Like I kind of had that scan for women. So I was always really excited about aging. And as a child, I think I just really wanted to be like an older woman.

woman who was in her groove. And I felt that way in my 20s. And I felt that way in most of my 30s. And then a different thing started to happen in my late 30s and early 40s, which is, oh, shit, I'm

I'm here, those things are happening and I now have different feelings about it. And I think this is like life, right? Like you dream of having a relationship that looks a certain way and then you're in it and then you're struggling in it. Or you dream of having a child or a home or a career, whatever it may be. You dream of taking that trip and then you're there and like...

you know,

You lose your bag and you can't find the train station. And you had like such a fantasy of what that trip was going to be like. And then you're in it and it's still cold. And like, you still dub your toe and lose your whatever you're in it. It's more dynamic when you're in something than the fantasy you're having. So I feel like I'm at the beginning phase of this and I'll layer in another thing that a friend told me who is older than me. She likened.

aging to pregnancy. And so this will make sense to people that have been pregnant. You have such a fantasy about like you and your pregnant body. And so you immediately when you think of yourself pregnant, you have these images of like big boobs and flowing hair and like a big, luscious belly and some, you know, you're like sauntering through a field, just feeling yourself pregnant in full goddess form.

The first trimester of pregnancy is so not that. You're, nobody can tell you're, you don't usually tell people you're pregnant. Nobody can tell you're exhausted. You feel terrible. You don't even look pregnant. You just don't really fit in your clothes. So like weird, janky body dysmorphia stuff starts coming up.

And so I'm now likening the first trimester of pregnancy is like aging. And I'm in my first trimester of aging where it's a little awkward. It's a little weird and you're not in full bloom yet. And so I think I'm going to put in there, like for me, the, the fantasy, the full bloom of aging, maybe like,

Starts to come in more in like your mid to late fifties. Maybe it's more at that post-menopausal phase. Maybe it's like this awkward kind of perimenopausal phase where you're both like, there's still some of that youth happening there and you could kind of slip into that, but you've also got one foot into heading to cronedom. Cronedom. Is that right?

is that real did we just make that up croned him i like it you're you're headed there and so well that's that's that's kind of my thought there there is this limbo phase for women one foot still sort of in in the maiden one foot in the crone straddling both knowing that you're leaving one you're fully going into the other and then there's like the other factor

of it's not just how you're perceived, how you look, but like having two feet in cronedom means that your next phase is death. So there's like that piece too, is that it's not just vanity, it's survival. So, you know, it's a weird, it's a weird, cool journey. If, you know, and you only get to do it if you are blessed with a long life.

Definitely something to work with. It's like, you know, I talk about this all the time with my female friends. And again, like, I think having some gallows humor too makes it easier, makes it more fun. I think there's a lot you can just laugh at, honestly. Yeah, feel less alone in it. Yeah, definitely.

So those are kind of my thoughts there. And here's the other thing. I think the way that you, I think the, for me, I'll speak for myself, the way I feel about aging, but I'm going to throw some other females in there that feel the same way. When I think about aging and I think about being that older woman,

woman that is really sunken into herself and her skill set and just is like so cool. I feel way more comfortable being her through the female gaze. And so my gaze, the women that I care about, my daughter, my mother, my friends, like all of that feels really good. Where it starts to feel icky is if we get into sex

the male gaze of our culture. Like that's the only part that feels bad for me. And so maybe that's like unhooking some of that too, is if we can let

that go, our internalized male gaze, like if you can start to unhook from that, then that feels better. Yeah. Oh my God. I think that's exactly what, where I'm stuck, you know, listening to this conversation from a couple of years ago, you and Lacey were talking about this and you spoke to her about how

Pulling out your gray hairs made you think about mortality and wanting to hold on to what you have. And you were, you called it a micro hysterical moment, which is like another one-liner that I'm just like, oh my God, I have so many of those. Unfortunately, I relate to the plucking out the gray hairs one. And I think that,

I'm used to having all of these body image insecurities. And that's, I mean, we all as women have it. It's like no different, but that's been one that I've been very aware of in the last decade plus, like since I was a teen. And I'm kind of like,

Oh my God, I'm not even like, I'm still in the, I'm that one still not sorted. And now I'm, you know, moving into this other one, which is, you know, bodies are so silly and embarrassing and beautiful and, um,

All of it, but I really don't want to get... Well, I'll ask you this. One thing that came up in that conversation that I keep coming back to is you were asking Lacey...

How do you feel about it? And she just kind of mirrored what you were saying and just being so grateful for where you both were in your lives at that point. And she just said kind of casually, as she does, she was like, you know, I do sometimes think about not wanting to feel invisible as a woman aging. And I think that speaks to what you were just saying.

saying about the male gaze, because I don't think we're invisible to other women. Like when I see, you know, one of my friends, I is like one of the women that you were describing that you grew up looking up to. And I think I had a lot of

people that I saw in the media and movies I watched, that they were all in their 30s. You know, they were all like navigating their 30s or 20s. And sometimes lately, you know, when this age thing really came up for me, and I think it started of like someone that I liked and had this entanglement with romantically.

I started dating a 25-year-old, and then I broke my leg and then had all this time to think about all this stuff. And so I had trouble navigating out of it.

And I think part of it is, you know, moving into the next phase and not having not being partnered or not having, you know, things set up like my I keep making the joke like I'm doing excellent for a 25 year old, you know, but I still am building a lot of the things I I want for myself to feel to be one of those women when I'm older that your younger self would look up to or my younger self would look up to in that way of like, wow, they just are, you know, fully embodying their life so much outside of,

I guess I realized how much I relied on my youth, you know, not even on beauty, 'cause I never felt like that was something I had to rely on, but,

on truly just like being at the younger person at the dinner party. And I think you're right. I think that there's a different way to reframe this, but I guess, okay, here are two questions for you. Do you ever get frustrated with the double standard and how do you handle those feelings? And then also, do you think that it's changing? Like, do you think the double standard will change? So I don't get frustrated with the double standard and I'm not,

waiting for society to change. I really believe that that's my own work. And I'm not waiting for anyone to hand it to me. So that feels like it's within me to change how I feel about who I am and what I'm stepping into. And I believe that

that if I feel good, if I feel empowered, if I feel like I'm at the top of my game, then other people will share in that, not the other way around. So I guess what I work with internally is how to change the thoughts that still come up around, is it too late in the day? I realized that

We're having this conversation and I'm sitting in the position of having a partner that feels positive about aging, feels positive about women aging and sees value in older women. And so it is a really nice thing to have a male around and

That sees a lot of value in the same kind of older women that I do. So it reinforces that. But ultimately, it still goes back to me. And something that I find tremendously helpful is spending time around women that are in different life phases that I'm inspired by.

And, you know, this is like different than having some beautiful woman with gray hair in your Instagram feed. Like go beyond and actually have relationships with these women in different ways.

phases and spend time with them. Like, you know, this summer I spent a bunch of time with my mom who's in her seventies and my mom's best friend that I've known my whole life, who feels like family to me, who is in her late sixties. And I

They look just as cool to me as they ever did. They're just as fun as they ever were. If anything, they're having more fun now because they've got, you know, at least in my mom's case, she's got less responsibility, more financial security. Like they're, I look at them and that's not a bad view. They look great. They feel great.

they're still so cool. So I think that's really healthy too, to have that kind of perspective. And, you know, if the perspective that you're giving yourself, maybe like have the right, make sure it's the right feedback loop. So if you are spending time with only people your age,

And you have an Instagram feed. And if that's like a visual daily thing for you, that's just filled with people your age and younger, because that's most of what it is and brands that are, you know, taking pictures of people in their 20s and feeding you that.

And then your exposure to women that are older, maybe aren't inspirational at all to you. Maybe you love them, maybe they're family, but they don't represent energetic, empowered, free, all the things you're looking for, like time to change it up. Yeah. And just, you know, call in someone who's in their prime.

40s that you can spend time with someone in their 50s like you know maybe it's

an artist that you love and following them and like go show up, go see them in person, go see them off digital things. Patti Smith is another one that's hugely inspirational to me. And you don't get it digitally. You have to go see Patti. You have to go talk to her. You have to go see how powerful she is on stage, how energetic she is, how irreverent she is.

So I feel like, you know, yeah, part of aging is like sleeping and having antioxidants and minerals and like regulating stress and doing all those things. That's just such a small part of it. The other one is really working on the voices within yourself. And so, you know, to touch upon that,

the book that we both read and gave us a lot to think about Miranda July's book she there was a narrative in that book there was the interior monologue around am I too old am I um sexually compelling to be like all of that was in there um and it's great to get it out

on paper and for women to start really having these conversations out loud. But I would offer like, let that be one thread of many and make sure that you're feeding and giving enough airtime and investing enough in letting those other threads

have, have space and volume in your head. And so figure out what that means for you, you know? Thank you. That was so nice and so true. And yeah, thank you. I think I really needed to hear that. And, and I think it'll be useful for a lot of people too, because yeah, it there's, there's a lot of different elements for it to, to this conversation. And I think not being able to

see ourselves past a certain age or what we want for ourselves. Or, you know, I just, I thought I'd probably have a partner by now. I thought maybe I'd have a kid. I thought maybe, you know, but that's not the way the cookie crumbled, which is like, I really love my life and, and just being able to see, like you said, other people that you can look up to and relate to and spend time with. And, you know, I, I'm really going to take that advice and I'll, I'll report back and you're one of them.

Not you're just like a second older than me, but, but yeah. No, no, I think, I think I'm almost 10 years older than you. Seven. Something like that. I don't know. I'm bad. I don't know the math. That counts. I think that counts on your, like finding someone in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, eighties, if you can, if you can find it. But I, I think, I think that counts. And yeah,

Here's the other thing I'll say. Your life can change in a moment. All of those things that I heard you just rattle off, I don't have a partner, I don't have a child, those things happen so quickly if that's what you want. And so where it may feel like you're not working in this evenly paced linear way, it's not the way life works.

And so if you're going about like, okay, each day is pacing like this. And so if I met somebody, it would be paced out like that. And then I'm like, before you know it, I'm 40 years old. Like I know that math because I've also been there myself. But life, we don't know how life is going to move. And it isn't always linear. And perhaps you can think about

the time that you're spending now, sometimes I like to think about pulling back an arrow on a bow. And the longer you're pulling back for whatever that goal is, wherever you want to land, you're pulling back, you're pulling back, you're pulling, your arm is getting tired. The string is getting tight. When you let that thing go,

at the right moment, like the arrow has all of that momentum. And that's actually sort of linear. So that's not, it's not matching perfectly with my nonlinear thing, but I, you know, you're pulling back the bow. There is going to be a lot of momentum. Also, you know, you, you, you're talking about partner and child, like those are miracles of love. We don't,

We don't know what's going to happen. You don't know what the timing is like. And love has its own timeline. You know, you meet someone and the...

attraction and familiarity like that whole trip of love is intense and things can happen very quickly and you can know within you know six months of being with someone that this is your person and this is who you want to make a family with and within a year you're

You can be partnered and pregnant. The only thing we do know is that a baby takes, you know, usually around 10 months to come out like that. You can bank on, but things can happen very quickly in two years.

Yeah, I mean, that was so... I've been following you and Moon Juice. I've been a fan of Moon Juice. I would order it on the internet when I lived in Michigan when I was in college and obsessed with wellness. And I've been a fan of yours for a long time. So I've obviously kept in touch with you and we're friends on Instagram. And I saw your life unfold, but I hadn't actually listened to this episode where you...

That I listened to yesterday where you talk about how this unfolded for you and how, you know, I feel the exact same way that you were mentioning it at the time when you met your husband or when you reconnected with your husband and how you were...

It sounds like you had been pulling back the bow and you had been in that phase where you were ready for it, but you had this tension between needing alone time and wanting a partner. And I really relate to that and just the wanting to prioritize things.

the things that you're pulling back the bow things like meditation and these practices that you found really useful, but knowing that you're going to have to toss those aside in a way and navigating that time. So I guess, yeah, do you have any like thinking back to that, that time? What did you learn and where are you with relationships and connection and even friendship, which is completely undefined, like,

Where are you with all of that now? And how has your understanding of it evolved? Yeah, well, so for perspective for you, I was your age when my husband and I got together. And so, yeah, is that correct? 34? I think so. 34. 34.

I believe so. And so, you know, a lot, a lot can happen. I'm telling you, Katie, you're going to go back and listen to this one day and be like, Oh yeah, a lot happened. You'll have to come back with me and we'll, we'll debrief. We'll remember this conversation.

What has evolved there? I think I am in a season. So there's the season you spend really feeling ready to have a family, ready to have a partner, ready to have a baby perhaps and create that family unit. And

And there's so much wishing and desiring and fantasizing. And then the person comes along and that is answered prayers. And you're, you know, also so high on the love chemicals. And then in my case, I,

you know our daughter who i also had prayed for for so long she came along and the first was miraculous and so you have all of this i don't know it feels very venusian it's like venusian phase of calling the people in calling them down all of that and then you get everything that you

you asked for and prayed for. And then you go into just the, the work and management phase, the building phase. I don't know if it's the building phase, the tending phase, which is a really different energy. And so, you know, like

long sleepless nights and late mornings and poems. And I don't know, like all of those things, all of that energy that's required to really bond people together and pull souls down from wherever they're coming from out and through your body. Like that is amazing.

and the vibe of paying the bills, keeping your house in functional order, keeping children alive, healthy, happy. That is a very different vibe. And in my case, it's also a business, which I've just never worked so much in my life. I think there's a thought as an entrepreneur, like 13 years in business,

maybe have this assumption that it gets less complicated or less overwhelming or less terrifying at times. And that is not the case for me. I find it to be even bigger now. The stakes are higher. I have like more fears and stress around that. And it asks of me every day to level up.

and learn things and move faster. So yeah, I'm in a very particular life phase right now that just feels like a lot. There's a lot to manage. There's a lot of work. And I think I could do a better job of, well, no, I think I'm, I do try to prioritize like finding the joy in all of that and

And to remember it was not so long ago that you didn't have all of these things to manage. And now you have them all and you have them all at once.

and how to keep everything on the rails. And, you know, I kind of put that into the aging conversation too. It kind of sits there. And I do also think we're going to keep referencing this book. And so I hope anybody that hasn't read this book, go, go buy it, go read it. You can read it in like three days. Yeah, I did. It's like a weird, wild, wonderful trip.

That also is part of this aging process of, you know, in your youth, you look a certain way, you feel a certain way, like your days are organized in a particular way. And so, you know, there's like the life structure stuff. And I guess not for everyone, but for me, it's not just the way that I look in the mirror.

It's how I spend my time feels very much a part of that process. And so that can feel, I guess, in the same way we can look at ourselves and see ourselves aging and have those moments of...

you know, at the start of my gray hairs, like just wanting to pluck them out as if, and wouldn't grow back, you know, just some moment of, you brought the word back, micro hysteria. Yeah. Some like non-rational moment of like, I just need it gone now and forget about next week when, you know, there will be four more. Like emails. Yes. That's, that is another aging, you know, dance with age that I have is like,

Wow, this is so intense. You wake up and you see your gray hairs, which for like an update on gray hairs now, I have started getting some highlights for the first time in my life to actually just blend the gray in. So I don't cover the gray that's in my brown. I put a little honey highlight in it, sort of blends them in. Transition phase. Yeah, that's one of the big aging pieces for me. It's like, whoa, wow.

I have to get up, like forget about these gray hairs. How about the fact that I've got 800 emails that are consequential that I really need to give adult thought and presence to. And I also have two children that needed to be attended to. And like, I've got to be ready for a meeting and, you know, out the door in 45 minutes.

Yeah. So I don't know, that wasn't a very good answer to how am I feeling about relationships and all of that. But I think that is kind of like where I'm feeling, you know, whether it's a romantic relationship with my husband or friends even. Like I am mourning that a bit, you know, just...

Being in this life phase where there's so much that you wanted to handle and there really is not time for dinners with friends or a walk or coffee. And again, that's a product of the way that I work and what

I've taken on with my business and growth, but I do think that that came up in this book that we keep referencing, you know, her time and the monotony of what

middle life looks like with work and a child and a home and what that brings to a marriage and to friendships. I mean, she kind of had her, her spicy feminine relationship that was, that was a constant in her life. And I guess in small ways I have that. And that feels like, you know, that feels like some of the most

That feels like the most youthful energy I have in my life is little stolen conversations with my female friends. Yeah, we're having one right now. Yeah, totally. I think that that book too, she, the unnamed narrator, vacillates between exactly what you're saying. Like so much deep gratitude for everything she's built and her life and then also curiosity and also presuppositions

present, future, you know, I think future dread and future excitement and then past nostalgia and past like, oh my God, I made it through, you know, what you said about answering the question, you answered it perfectly because that's the thing, like everything is everything, you know, like relationships, aging, work, like it's, you know, it's all kind of one big soup really. And I think when I can remember that and not

Silo things. I mean, of course we have to in some ways, but yeah, I just, that all really hit me hard. I think this, this entire conversation, I think you've articulated so much of this that I've been contemplating. And I think, um,

around work and Moon Juice and everything that you've built and that you're still so involved in the business and growing up with your mom as the main breadwinner and someone who worked, as did I. And it sounds like that's also something that we shared. But you mentioned, and it's something that I read or heard from you, that your mom would often work late and was often, it sounded like...

like you're dealing with now in some ways, but busy. And this is one of my other phrases of yours actually, and of ahead of micro hysterical moments and bodies heal. This is probably my favorite and one that I use all the time. And I need to actually tell my friend captain like thinks it's mine, but I need to tell him that I actually got it from you. But I say it quite often where you said once, I don't even know if you remember this. You're like, I have panic levels of computer work.

No, I don't remember saying that, but it sounds very relatable. You said it on Instagram or something. And I think I was just like, oh, that shoot. That's, that's a way to put that, you know? But, but anyway, how do you handle your, when you feel that way that you would want to say something like that? Like what, how do you handle overwhelm or like looking at, you know, being a, you seem also like a very present person.

inspiring mom with your kids and in your relationship with your husband, like you seem so in love and it's, it's really inspiring me, but I also have heard and know how involved you are in this business and you don't have a co-founder and it is, you of course have a team, but, but how do you manage your, when you feel that way, what do you, what do you do push through or do you have some processes? Yeah.

Well, I'll preface to say that it all feels impossible. So this is not a moment of me trying to sell anyone on like women. We can have it all. You can have a marriage, a business, children, health, friends, joy, like just have a little lemon water in the morning and take a bath. Like, no. Lemon water in the morning.

feel like I have bitten off way more than I can chew. It feels impossible. I feel like I'm presence. I mean, I feel like I am presence. That is correct. I feel like I'm present to whatever is in front of me, but I feel divided. So I will be present to work.

when that is in front of me and that is in front of me most every day.

will do my best to give each of my children presents when I'm with them. And so it's easiest for me to do that when I'm not also trying to do work. So evening time, weekend, I've been better in the last two years of really saying we have to take family vacations. I never did that before in like 11 years.

years prior at Moon Juice. And so that's a newer thing for me of we have to regularly take time off as a family. So once a quarter, three times a year, something like that, really honoring that time. I can be really present to that, but like, gosh, it feels impossible. I'm in a phase of life now that feels totally unreasonable, totally impossible. And how is anyone doing this?

And so if you were to go inside my head and my interior, you would hear a lot of, this is impossible. How am I supposed to do this? This is too much. This feels crazy. Is anyone else feeling like this? Like that is, I hear a lot of that in my head these days. And then I take a deep breath and I get to it. And I think the presence of,

helps me so when i'm in meetings when i'm problem solving and that's a lot of hours of the day i'm not having the thoughts this is impossible i can't do this can anyone do this

This is crazy. I'm not having those thoughts. I'm having the thoughts of what sentence are we going to write? What do these margins look like? Let's pull up that spreadsheet again. That's all that's happening there. When I'm with my children, they are so joyful that when I really can let go of a phone, let go of an agenda, you know, timing, rushing, all of that, and just be with them, I can do that. And yeah, I...

wish that I need to get but we need to get back into the groove of really prioritizing marriage relationship time to do that I think we were really good for a while there before the last eclipse in April it was good my husband went on tour for almost a month we joined him and had some really nice time and so we're kind of back to the chaos of it's all too much and I'm really seeing like

Gosh, it sucks when you have someone that you love and you're managing all of these things and there's never time to sit down and enjoy with each other. So doing a better job there, but like there's no formula for this and

If it looks like I've got it all figured out on Instagram, that's because that's what that platform does. And I don't have, I don't have like an answer or solution for this feeling. I think I've got resilience and that resilience has come from, I don't know, maybe something that I was born with, maybe something that

I created as a child going through hard things. I know that definitely, you know, like really simple things like mushrooms and adaptogens and minerals, not having alcohol, being mindful of how caffeine is affecting me, sleep, like all of those things play a big part in

in helping that inherent or built resilience stay on the rail. You know, so I do those things, but I don't walk around this life saying like, I got this. I do have moments of passion that I think really keep me coming back.

every morning to like chop wood, carry water again, because I definitely feel like that is my life phase, chop wood and carry water. And so I think that keeps me going. Some of the just the tactical things that I mentioned to keep the body and mind healthy and on the rails, but also a feeling of faith, hope, and then hope.

Maybe just the discipline of being able to get out of bed every morning and keep my body moving despite my head saying this is impossible. I can't do this. I'm feeling really nervous and scared about certain things. What is the outcome going to be? How am I going to solve for this? Like I let,

those voices play out in my head and if they get loud enough that'll turn into body chemistry that feels uncomfortable. One could call that anxiety. I like to think of it as thoughts that make body chemistry that make me feel uncomfortable. I think there's something beyond those voices. There's something bigger than those voices that say

Love you. Hear that. No matter what, you're going to be okay. So get to the computer or pick up the phone or get in the car. Keep going. This is uncomfortable. And this too shall pass. You know, no one's going to be anxious and uncomfortable forever. So-

I think that's sort of the recipe for, you know, and I don't know, I feel like I really had a hard time, I think two years ago when I was maybe three years ago. I don't know. I think when I was 39, when I was 39, I was really feeling upset and angry about everything.

this thing that I feel like I was fed. We were all fed in the 80s and 90s.

this notion that like women can do it all. There was such a rah-rah for women doing it all and like go out there and have your career and have your marriage and have your children and have your friends and be a nice person and be a gracious host and be beautiful and be fit and be healthy. Like

That's not real. And I think we were like fed this picture of a woman that was just doing it at all with a smile on her face and like whatever that looks like, whoever you're referencing in your mind and arriving to the place of I'd worked so hard to make sure I got all the things and ticked all the boxes. So, you know, a home and a career and shit.

children and a partner arriving to the weight of having all of those things and, you know, being a breadwinner and all of that is like, whoa, this, this is so hard. This is near impossible. And reaching out to some women that had been a beacon of that and saying like,

Hey, did I get this wrong? This feels so hard. This is impossible. And to hear everyone echo back like, oh yeah, it's impossible. It sucks. It'll make you feel sick. Like, oh, I was like, wait,

why did nobody say this out loud before? But like, yes, it's an option to have all of these things, but it's going to be painful and feel near impossible. So I think I like arrived to that place at 39, felt really upset, like saw the anger move through me of like, who sold me this story? And why didn't you tell me the truth? And then I think I went into, I

mourning, like some grievance around it of just like, okay, so I'm not super woman. Like that's not real. Super woman isn't real. And it's hard and scary. And like, again, that vision of super woman that has the confidence and she's got all the answers and like, she knows how to guide her marriage and all of that.

I think I grieved the fact that I was not that person and I was not having that internal experience of that. And then I think I moved into another phase of acceptance that it's just hard. And so now I'm really honest with myself and I'm really honest with anyone around me and anyone who asks like, gosh, this is hard and maybe too hard.

And I don't know what the answer is, but I'm going to keep giving it 200% and do the best that I can. And I think like now kind of in, you know, just some acceptance of, I don't, I don't really see anyone as being a failure now. I think there was a

10 years earlier or 20 years earlier, seven years earlier, maybe even five years earlier, there was like a real fear of failure and maybe judgment towards other people that looked like they had quote unquote failed or like missed an opportunity.

And I think that's shifted in me or is like even shifting now. Divorce isn't failure. I think there's like a lot of compassion and kindness that I feel around divorce stories, whether it's a friend or, you know, divorces that happened 30 years in the past, like,

I visit that with, gosh, it's so hard to make everything work. And that's not a failure. I look at, you

you know, businesses that go under or founders that exit, you know, in terms that they probably didn't want to and where that felt like such a scary failure before. I think I look at that now and I think I have to look at all of these things up close and personal because they feel like distinct possibilities for me every day. You know, it's like the stakes feel very high and when you have so much on your plate and you're looking at

at wow, these things that we could look at as failures are happening every day to people I love and know and respect all around me. That's like a newer thing that I'm getting into is just reframing those things not as failure because I think I'm starting to unpack a lot of just fear, fear I have around failure. And I don't think that the...

Fear I have around those failures or, you know, my attempts to try to control to not fail. I see that they're not really serving me. And I see that an attitude of, you know, hey, it's not failure. It's not a black and white. That's not the end of the story. That's a snapshot will actually serve me.

And so trying to bring back some of just the fearlessness that I think I had in my 20s. Would you want to bring it back to the book, Katie? We could bring it back to the book, right? Like that's probably, yeah. Or confession. Yeah. I think she's sort of walking through some of that.

stuff too. And I also just have to say that, you know, you brought up the term, but I guess I had used micro moments of hysteria. That book is kind of like a micro moment of hysteria that just keeps turning to the next micro moment of hysteria that, you know, just becomes the

a macro moment of hysteria, which I thought was so interesting about the book. It's like, whoa, we can all relate to these like little hysterical thoughts, little hysterical moments, little weird choices, but to see them just sort of like relive

run wild was alarming and relatable. Yeah. And cathartic, I think. You're very good at turns of phrase, like, or at least to me, I don't, I don't know if I'm like, people come to you for, you know, the sex dust and then I'm like here for the panic levels of computer work and like your pros. But just,

Just now, I just wrote this down how you were like, yeah, some people call it anxiety. I call it thoughts that make body chemistry that makes me feel uncomfortable. You just casually said that. I'm like, that's so good. That's just such an excellent reframe and just the way that you're

You're kind of looking at this stuff of, you know, it really is all connected. And I think, you know, when you are like, yeah, if it looks this way on Instagram, it's not. That's what that platform is. Well, if that's what that platform is, what this platform is, is the opposite. And I think that's why I really love it. You know, I think I really love these long form time capsule platforms.

conversations where, you know, like an hour and a half in, we get kind of loose and just, you know, realize that we're just people with each other and just sort of talk about whatever comes up. And you shared so much today that I'm really going to keep thinking about. And I feel like these topics, like you were saying, with not being able to

have it all at least at the same time or you know we we have all these different buckets but we only have so much water so sometimes one's going to be overfilled and the other one's empty and whatever and yeah I just think you're doing a great job and I really appreciated all of your honesty about it and oh and this is the other thing I was thinking too like all of this when it when we talk about aging or we talk about vanity we talk about beauty or mortality or

or maybe not mortality. And I don't know that that falls into what I'm about to say, but work and especially what you're saying with judgment and, and divorce and same, like, even I look at my parents and I'm like, Oh my God, like you were children when you had me. And like, you're both difficult people, like of course, like good job on the divorce, you know, like it's, it's all the, the less we're judging other people. It's the, the,

it's very connected to fear because it's just, I guess, our self judgment maybe and thinking of ourselves too much, you know, or when we can not judge other people or, or, you know, even, you know, my thing lately is like this whole feeling behind or feeling like I, you know, whatever. And I think that's just a judgment of, I must be judging other people for being ahead then, you know, or judging other people for being behind me or, you know, so it's just,

Yeah, man. Micro judgments. Which makes it harder. Like that's what I realized is there was something about, you know, if you do get married, if you are partnered, if you do start a family with someone, there's this like, I mean, maybe it's just me. I don't know. People will relate or not. But all of a sudden there's this internalized fear around failure, right?

And I didn't know that I was going to have that. And then building this thing, it's like, despite loving my partner very much, knowing that we are the right fit and that everyone's giving it their all, like what was not helpful for me?

was just this looming fear. Cause we hear these stats all the time. Did you know that more than 50% of marriages end in failure? You know, it's like that's everywhere. And that is not helpful. It's like the same business that, you know, how many businesses struggle or don't do this or it's like, whoa, not helpful. And I realized that all of the judgments we have around other people, like,

It has nothing to do with other people or their lives. These judgments that we have are just, we're just spooking our self. It's actually a way of judging ourself and like putting more fear and more,

pressure on ourselves. And so I've realized like a hack to having more self-compassion and to try to put less pressure on myself. And maybe it's easier for me in a way to just have more compassion and kindness to others and to really correct myself when a judgy thought comes in and

And I find that that sometimes is easier to focus on other people and the way that you think about them. And that will come back to you. And you will find that the thoughts, you know, it's the thoughts about yourself and how you're judging yourself will organically change. But then also just changing the climate inside yourself is important.

towards other, I mean, that's like pretty toxic. That's just pollution that's in your head. And it's really only harming you like being snarky about someone or thinking, you know, better or thinking, you know, their story, like,

you are actually the person that has to live with that. Not them, not anyone else. Yeah. I think that that's like a great benefit too. And it sounds like you have this too of not being, not having some of the traditional things or not like, you know, even back to like when we're in school or whatever, like some one, but one thing that I guess I feel pretty secure about is

I really don't judge other people at all anymore because I have no place to. And if I see even like more of an empathy come up or a, I will feel a lot of, it's not, it's not pity, but I can't really think of a better word. I'll feel a lot of like,

Just like, oh my God, I just have so much compassion and love of like, oh my God, that could be me in a second, you know, of just, and, and that, that is like a pretty intense feeling, you know, it's not judgment. It's,

Yeah, but I just I and I think that's why people feel pretty open with me and able to kind of share and I and that's something I is a real benefit, you know, I think to some of these, you know, uncomfortable feelings and the anxiety thing or, you know, having been through some stuff. But yeah, and I also think like you said, like thinking about ourselves, there's Jemima Kirk, much like you in this way, like said something on Instagram stories. I think she did a

a Q and a or something. And somebody asked to like, how do you be confident or how do you like get over insecurity or when you feel anxious on at a, in a situation or something. And she was like, y'all are thinking about yourselves too much. And it's so true. Like, I think, you know, anytime I start to spiral, I'm like, Oh yeah. It's hard though. I mean, we were with ourselves all day. So it's tricky. Yeah.

Okay, I'm briefly interrupting this conversation. I'm so sorry, but I just must tell you, as you can hear, we've gone all over the place, Amanda and I. We've covered a lot of ground, but some ground that we did not get to is Moon Juice, her company, and really the one thing about it that I wanted to cover that only I can do in regards to Moon Juice is tell you what I love and

You know what? You can find out more about how she started the company and more about it and what it does and what it is. You probably already know, but she's talked about that on many other podcasts and it's on the website. So I'm actually fine with the fact that we didn't even touch on that, but I feel as though I want to tell you. I agree.

love a couple of these products and I have for a very long time and I would be remiss to not select a mere few of them to tell you about. And then also her team reached out and they're giving us a discount code if you do purchase

happen to want anything, fully no pressure. This is not an ad and this interview was not an ad. If you do happen to want anything or as a gift coming up, we have 15% off site-wide at moonjuice.com. So just use the code LETITOUT. It's LETITOUT in one word, so no spaces. And I'm gonna use it myself.

And this is what I'm going to get. But, you know, you can do whatever you want. But I just, I feel like I want to, I've never actually said this before. And I have been using a couple of their things for a really long time. And I just want to, you know, do my favorites essentially. So first and foremost, I think I maybe mentioned it somewhere before.

In the intro or outro of this, or maybe I'm just thinking of a friend I told about this, but there's a supplement on Moon Juice called Super Beauty. I didn't know that that was the name of it. I thought it was called Beauty Pills, but it's called Super Beauty and they are capsules. And I swear to you, I used to take them really consistently when I lived in New York. And I swear to you, yes, yes, I was younger then. So you know what? Part of it is that. But

I also took them, like, since I've moved to California, I just haven't been as consistent with them and I haven't had them for a while. And whenever I would take them and then stop taking them, I noticed a difference, which is very uncommon for me with supplements. Usually, I'm kind of like, I don't know if this even works. Like, I didn't really notice a difference. But with these, I did. And really what it is, I know for me, if I have vitamin C supplements,

In this certain form, it really helps my skin. Also vitamin E and vitamin D3 and glutathione. And all of those things are in this.

And more. And way more. Just read about it on the website. But apparently there's some free radicals is involved. Antioxidants is involved. It just actually helps. It's helped with my acne. And it says it can help with other things on here too. But, you know, I enjoy taking this one supplement. So there's many, many more. There's one for hair. There's one for stress.

I've tried them all honestly but this is the one and I feel like this one's underrated I feel like people talk about super you or super hair and those are fine but this one this one is my favorite so you know whatever I just take it or leave it we're also all bodies are different this one you might really like as well or you also might be really into the hair one but not like this one so much so you know I'm just telling you what works for me I also use their face wash and

And I use it every single night. And it's called Melt Cleanse. And it's really gentle. It smells really good. It's easy to travel with. And I've used it for the entire time I've lived in California. So that's four years. And I think I used it before that maybe too. But I love it. And there's many other skincare products. I know Maddie uses their Cosmic Cream. She has drier skin than I do. I've used it before too. It smells incredible. I gave it to my mom for a gift once.

but the one that I use consistently, like I said, is this milk cleanse. It's my face wash. It's my cleanser. I mean, I could call out a lot of other products, but I actually really like their dust, sex dust and beauty dust. And I used to put them in my smoothies all the time. I don't really make smoothies anymore, so I'm not really using them, but they're fun to give as gifts or like put in a little gift bag. Same for their snacks. Like on

Honestly, they're fun when you're making a board because they're really colorful and kind of different. There's these activated turmeric coconut lime pepitas. The last thing I'll just say is this is not a review because I actually haven't had it, but there's a new magnesium. I believe they have three or four, but the newest one is cherry sleepy magnesium, and

It just looks really, I don't know. The branding worked on me. I'm gonna try it because it just seems like it tastes good and it might be something that I want to have in the evening. So I'm gonna give that a go. Anyway, the code is LETITOUT for 15% off anything you want on the site.

No pressure, like I said, but if you do get something and you really like it, let me know. Maybe I'll want to try it too. Okay. Thanks. Back to the episode. Okay. So as we've come to a close and I've given you like an unfiltered little slice of my head this Monday morning, um,

Um, if you were a priest, could you please tell me how I have sinned? Like what would these sins be? Oh man, I, you have not said I I'm redefining sin and you are absolved. Um, you, we would have to go in and say, bless me father for I have sinned. It has been three weeks since my last confession. And then you start in. And so, um,

Yeah, I'll say bless you, Amanda. You have not sinned. It is your first time here on the confession program, but I hope you come back. It doesn't have to be three weeks, but I hope you do come back again for another time capsule with me. And truly, thank you so much. This was, we went all over the place. I have these,

notes, but we somehow covered all of it and none of it at the same time. And I loved it. Is there anything that you wish that I would have asked about that you wanted to talk to you? Is there anything else you wanted to let out? No, but I wish for our next time, I wish that you would have asked me about the seven sins. And I

could have shown you all the ways that I've sinned. I'm like, you really piqued my interest. And the teenager in me wants to like Google the seven sins and say out loud how I have sinned.

sinned in all those seven ways and how I'm really comfortable with that maybe that's the um yeah that's our that's a podcast that's that's uh-huh that's a sleepover that's I really would like to like get into my teen get into character for that one I want to like get creative and you know I know like one of the deadly sins is how do they pose it murder murder

Slaughter. I don't know. I have no idea what they are. I know adultery is one. I know like, yeah. It's like, okay. God, something like that. All of that. Like, I just want to get, have some creative thinking and explaining to pick the box for all seven sins. Cause yeah,

the teenager in me is not living if I am not getting somewhere close to those sentences and in a three week time period. Yes. All right. Well, that's our, that's our next endeavor. Okay. Thanks Katie. Thank you so much for doing this. It was so nice to talk to you. So we end by letting out a deep breath. Will you do it with me real quick? I would love to. Okay. Inhale. Let it out. Ah,

Thank you again so much for doing this. This was great. Oh, thank you for having me. Okay, that was my conversation with Amanda Chantal Bacon. Follow her everywhere.

She's obviously very smart and articulate and was so kind to me in this. I really enjoyed getting to know her a little bit, and I hope you did too. Thank you so much for listening and sticking around to the end. If you like this podcast, if you liked this episode, share it. Let us know if you listened on Instagram or wherever.

I have a sub stack. If you want to hear more from me, that's the place to do it. I write a newsletter and send out these episodes every so often. And I recently made zine. So you can get your hands on a copy of that. Infos in the show notes. So grateful that you listened. So grateful to Amanda for coming on. And I will talk to you really soon. A lot of cool stuff coming up. This podcast is edited by Jeremiah. I'll talk to you next week. Bye bye.