Mixtape of the Last Few Years with James McCrae
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Hi, how's it going? Welcome back.

I don't really have much of an intro this week. My close friend, James McRae, is back on the show. If you've been listening for a while, you know James, you love James. He was here in 2020 to talk about music, which is what we're talking about today. Just really our favorites and what we are noticing and liking. And he was here about a year ago to talk about his newest book, which I loved. And I'll link to both of those episodes, but...

Really, without further ado, here's the conversation. There's no ad today, so if you do like this show, share it with a friend, leave a review. It actually helps so much. And let me know what you think. I have a sub stack. It's called Let It Out Lists. You can get that if you'd like to. And I just so appreciate you listening. We, as I said, talk about music, but we also talk about...

David Lynch a little bit. We talk about he recently became a dad. So you'll hear us chat about that a little bit and how I met Olivia Rodrigo and much, much more. Okay. Talk to you at the end. Thanks so much for listening. Action. I like that three, two, one. Does it show that for you too? It's very cinematic. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Action. Okay. Thank you so much for coming back.

Oh my goodness, it's so great to be here and to talk about our favorite subject, which is music. So it's cool to talk about that on a podcast instead of trading voice notes about music. I know. Which is what we usually do.

I know, I know. This is just one very long voice note. We started last year talking about your new book. You came on the podcast and your book had just come out. And in that time, you've since had a baby too. Book and a baby.

Yes. Looking back, it was a pretty crazy year. Yeah, gave birth to two babies. The first was the book and then having our first actual baby in the summer. So life has been very different since then. And it's been such an adjustment, but a beautiful adjustment, just transitioning into parenthood.

So it's, it's, it's, we're kind of in a, we're kind of in a sleep deprived days, but we're hanging in there. Yeah. That might be a creative zone, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, well, being a parent is the most creative thing you can do because it does not come with a rule book. Yeah, completely. Okay, we were talking about this a little bit before we pressed record, but what is the biggest lesson that being a dad has taught you so far? Well, there are a couple of things that come to mind. The first is it doesn't have anything to do with parenting. It's in and of itself, but just the time management because...

The baby is, we find, I find her easy to take care of. Like, yeah, she needs to be held and fed and, and all these things. That's fairly easy. I would say for the most part, but you've gotta be doing that throughout the day. So it's just like, how do you manage your time and prioritize all the things that you need to do while also keeping this baby alive and happy?

So just learning to prioritize like what matters, what doesn't and really focusing on what matters and being effective with your time in the limited time that you have has been a big adjustment. And then in terms of just having the baby, I mean, it just opens up your heart. I feel like it's unconditional love in a way that you don't really understand until you have a baby because...

It's like it not only is it unconditional love, but it's, it's just like so instant and you kind of learn that, oh, unconditional love isn't something that you have to strive for or after when you have a baby. It's just, it's just there. It's just there. And, and unconditional love. One thing that that means is responsibility. I think that love and responsibility are important.

sort of the same where it's like when you have unconditional love for someone, you take on a responsibility for them, for their, in her case, for her life and for her whole, her entire existence is your responsibility.

So it's like it kind of it's kind of redefined even how I think about love. And it's not like a warm feeling like I love this baby. It's like, no, I will. This is survival. I will protect this baby with my life. So it's just like really reframes how you look at the world in so many different ways. Yeah, that wow, that's really interesting. Responsibility is love. It makes so much sense to me. Like it's care. Everything is love.

related to prioritizing taking care of someone that you love. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I've been going through it, but here happy to happy to chat with you about music and and to you know, she's sleeping right now. We will hear her crying in a little bit. Yeah, we got it. We got to get the show on the road. All right. Well, just really quickly before we before we talk about music.

In that last episode, as I mentioned, we were, I just finished reading your book. Like I asked you to push the time because I wanted to get to the end of your book and I, because I was loving it so much. And in it, you mentioned some of your favorite artists and we're both, you know, obviously we lost our,

Someone we both love and everybody seems to love David Lynch. So since he passed away this week, I know that we've all been reflecting on him and his work. So I just wanted to know if there's anything that came to mind of any of the ways that he inspired you. You know, I'm definitely a David Lynch fan. I think before he passed, I had maybe seen...

three or four of his movies and maybe some like short films or short interview things but I had not really gone into depth into the full scope of his work and since he's passed I've watched like four more of his movies and that was only a couple days yeah well Brito was out of town so I went deep into a David Lynch rabbit hole and I

what a what a unique artist just some people are i mean there are a lot of great artists that maybe you know kind of sound like someone else or remind you of someone else and it's like david lynch is the rare artist that is only reminds you of him like he's he is the archetype of whatever he is he is the archetype of it his movies are sometimes very disturbing they can be very disturbing and violent and they're not always a pleasant watch

But at the same time, in the middle of this disturbing scene, there might be a line that will make me laugh out loud. Yeah. So just his ability to combine all of these things. So I just think, you know, just as an artist, he's such an inspiration. And that's not even to mention his life as like a meditator and as a...

like really a teacher of creativity, of life, of meditation. He was such a generous teacher in his interviews. There's a great, great, great documentary about him and his art called The Art Life with David Lynch. And I rewatched that as well. And just his ability to just go his own way and

And also to integrate so many Buddhist principles into his filmmaking process. Just what an iconic figure. And I'm sorry that he passed, but he left behind such a great body of work. And I still have a bunch of movies on my list of his that I need to go through that I have not seen yet. So I've been enjoying re-exploring that.

his work. Are you, are you a fan of David Lynch? Yeah. I, I mean, I think to be honest, similarly to you, I was more of a fan and, and this sounds sort of interesting to say, but I, I think this is a feeling that I've had more since he passed and seeing everyone seem to be a fan of him or seem to, you know, post about his passing. And I,

One of those things is like, even though other than Twin Peaks, I think, I don't know how commercially massively successful a lot of his projects were or when they came out, but he was such an iconic singular, as you said, so singular in his style as a person. And I think that is what I've been sitting with a lot of like,

You can just be really good at being yourself as a person and become iconic, even if the art isn't. I mean, his art is so iconic as well. But even if it's not as commercially successful, he was so, yeah, just so specific as himself and

And my entry into him was meditation. You know, his foundation, the David Lynch Foundation, gifted me TM in 2015. And I had Bob Roth, who's the director of the David Lynch Foundation or the I don't know what his exact title is, but he came on the podcast. He also happens to be from Michigan, too.

I had a lovely conversation with him. And then after he emailed me and was like, I want to gift you meditation. And I learned the next week and I've been doing TM ever since. And that was such a tremendous experience.

gift and life-changing and so I always just had this fondness for for him and after that and then of course you know he's iconic and just I think every cool person I knew who was like into film loved him and but it took me I actually just watched Twin Peaks for the first time when I broke my leg when I was in the cast you know I haven't seen Twin Peaks yet and I feel I

about that because that's his TV show. Like you said, it was a successful long-running TV show and I haven't seen that yet. So I have that to look forward to.

I haven't even finished it. I saved the last couple episodes. So maybe we can catch up together. Oh, yeah. We'll do a podcast watching session where we do the commentary. That's not a bad idea. Rewatch. Those are very popular. That's not a bad idea. Okay. Well, related somewhat.

One of my favorite conversations with you was not the one from last year, but from 2020, which I cannot believe was five years ago. You came on to talk about music like we're doing today. And I think, well, I know for a fact because I just re-listened to it, but in that we were like, we're going to do this annually. And we didn't.

But we kind of did. It just was private, like you said, voice noting about music pretty frequently every year. But we haven't come on here to actually debrief about it recorded. And that's why I think we're both just stoked, like much in a Lynchian way, like doing what feels good and what feels fun and interesting to us. And I think that would be what he would want us to do, you know? Yeah.

Yes, well, we have to please David Lynch. So no, I mean, we, yeah, I love talking about music with you. We're both such music nerds and we like a lot of the same stuff. And we also have other stuff that we, that each of us like. So it's just always a blast to talk about music with you. Music has been...

such a big part of my life. You know, I've never been a musician, never been in any bands in any capacity. So I have just been a lifelong appreciator of music. And even though I'm not a musician, I get more inspiration from music really than any other art form, you know, because it just feels so immediate. You know, I'm a writer and a poet, and there are obviously a lot of great writers and poets out there today.

But I think so many of the great writing and great poetry of the past 50, 60, 70 years has come through music. And music has defined the culture, I feel, more than any other art form of our generation. It's just...

It's just so fun to just explore different genres for me and like take different rabbit holes down different artists and sounds and like just absorb it. And just there's, I don't know. I feel like I sometimes just like,

navigate the world through the music that I'm listening to. Yeah, I think we both do. And I mean, I think a lot of people do. I think many, many people share that with us. But it was funny to hear you say that because I've never thought of that, that we share, that we're both not musicians and not in bands and don't play instruments. But

love it and have always loved it. And you're the person, like when a new album comes out, especially the ones that are in our Venn diagram of overlap that we particularly both love, like you're the first person I want to text to see what you think of something. And I know we're going to talk about several of these today, but you know, like when the new Sufjan came out, I guess that would have been

Two years ago, I think it was 2023. Yeah. Was that last year? 2023. Like, I remember where I was texting you incessantly about that and same with when...

Not St. Cloud. Back to Hatchie's Tiger Blood. Tiger Blood. Yeah. When Tiger Blood came out, when just the single, merely the single came out from that. I remember us texting like it's you're the first person I want to turn to with a lot of these foundational artists that we both really love. And then similarly, like because I know...

I know what you're into vaguely or not vaguely, like pretty a lot. I, there was a band that I discovered this year that I was like, you know, you got to listen to this. Let me know. It's like, and that's just so fun. It makes me feel like,

like I did when I was in high school and when I was making CDs and driving around in my car and I'll try to find this sub stack and I might have sent it to you when it came out but or maybe you sent this to me but it's really interesting it goes over how statistically when you get past a certain age which I think we've all probably heard this statistic you

start to not want to discover new music and you just stay listening to the things that you liked when you were young, which I'm very guilty of, but it went into the psychology of why and the statistics of that. And I just thought it was really interesting. And it's something that it made me want to push myself to like more new music

and new things and discovery because it's such an important, it was such an important part of my life and I want to keep it that way. And it does take some effort. And I think having a friend in class, which I always feel like we have been in different, you know, we, we've said before we have the same publisher. So we were able to kind of process that experience when we had, we both had a book coming out at the same time, a long time ago. And I think it's nice to have someone who you, who's,

with you in that discovery because it does take some effort, the more effort, the older we get, I think. And with algorithm and just so many different avenues. You're so right. I mean, music is such a communal thing, first of all. Like, just think back to our ancient ancestors making music around a fire, you know, and like the whole community was there appreciating it. And that's something that we've lost. Even, you know,

growing up, even as a, in my twenties, you know, going to all kinds of dive bars and music venues and like these punk Minneapolis venues to see all of these, you know, from punk to hip hop to indie with my friends, you know, and we're, we're drinking and it's just like, it's just like a, it's just like a communal event. And I just feel like

the communal appreciation of music has been lost i mean even thinking back to do you remember when music was all new music was released on tuesdays yeah like they used to have it be like oh that these all these albums are coming out on tuesday and then you would have to go it like go to the record store and people would go to the record store on a tuesday to get the new album

So, and like going out to pick it up in public with other people who are going out to pick it up, there was more of the shared experience, the shared appreciation for the music. And I just feel like that's not as easy these days. And even a lot of these punk and like dive venues that I used to go to in my twenties, they're all closed. And even now, and I live in Austin, Texas,

There are so many cool night spots and like weird concert spots or like coffee shop places that have been closing down. And I feel like there's just been such a cultural shift and around the music scene, the music community. Yeah.

And yeah, just it's, you're right. We need to like find ways to appreciate music. I even have a friend here in Austin. We've talked about having like music listening parties where we'll just like pick an album and just like get, get a group together and like listen to it and talk about it and, and, and appreciate it together because I feel like that is like something the soul needs. Oh my gosh. It's like this intersection of creativity and community and,

Which is why I host Sunflower Club, which is my monthly open mic where people get together and sing and share poetry or whatever in this community. And it just feels so good to experience these things together instead of in isolation. Yeah.

Yeah, completely. Funnily enough, one of the guests from last year, my friend Free, he hosts something in LA that you would love. It's called The Record Club. And he does a deep dive on an artist where like he did Amy Winehouse's Back to Black and he did a John Mayer album and he did a Michael Jackson album and the Outkast album. Like he's done so many. And

you listen to it all together. And then he also like, you know, gives you some history and information on it. And it's, it's a really special experience. And I think, yeah, I mean, so many of the best days and the best parts of life, like I think we're both pretty, we're both people who can spend a lot of time alone and, and get a lot from that too. But I think a lot of the best memories just in general are usually with, with other people. And, and,

And it makes the listening experience for me of listening to a record and finding my favorite song. It's just more fun to text you and be like, I actually love this song. And it's, it's more, it's even like more of my favorite thing when we, when you're like, Oh, that's so funny. I actually, that one like didn't really do it for me. I'm so into this one. Like I, I love, and then I'll listen to that one a little bit differently because I know that you really like, and it still might not be for me, but I, I'm, I'm,

wouldn't have even given it a second go if not for that. And I just, yeah, that's such a wonderful part of this. And let's like talk about the

the general, you know, the general state of the, the music industry a little bit more, especially as can in, in, in general, I want to hear what you have to say about this for sure, but related to it, like since 2020, because I just, you know, had this experience of listening to this time capsule of an episode, going back to hearing us talk about it back then. And it was

fully in the pandemic. And I have to tell you, like, I think I maybe already told you this texting before, but one of your albums that you picked was Charlie XCX and her quarantine record. And it's just, and then we talked about Dylan, which I want to talk about today too, but it was just so wild to hear us talking about what we were talking about then and how that's sick industry now. Well, I mean, I think that there's always,

Good music coming out. I mean, there's always albums every year that I'm super excited about and new artists that I'm excited about. But I sort of feel... And maybe this is my age, but maybe... I think it's actually part of a bigger shift where... I don't know. I think less and less each year, there are fewer new artists that really grab me. And I think about...

you know, how, how many kids today growing up, like teenagers are like, let's start a band.

because that used to be like a really popular thing for kids to do. Like think about like the 70s or something when like it's the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin, like David Bowie and like everyone wanted to be a rock star. So all these kids started bands, right? And like most of them never went anywhere, but they tried and they had some fun and put some energy into the music scene. And I feel like, you know, even in the 90s, there were probably a lot of

you know, even when I was in high school, I had friends that were in bands and like, you know, like multiple friends that were in multiple bands. And it was just kind of like something that everyone was doing. And I just don't know if that's happening the same way. And again, I'm not like a teenager anymore, so I don't know completely, but I feel like, you know, what things like streaming or TikTok or other, you know, people are always finding new ways to be creative.

But I feel like that just like let's start a band and write some songs and really like express ourselves through music and emote through lyrics and through instruments. I just don't think that's happening as much as it used to. And maybe we're getting more like, you know, just like kind of solo producers who are like making kind of sonic landscapes electronically, like kind of like on their own. So even like the music making part,

process has also become more isolated, just like the music listening experience has become more isolated. I think making music has become more isolated as well. And I think one of the reasons for that is, I think it's a lot harder to make money in the music industry these days. I mean, I think that streaming, artists get paid so, so, so, so little from streaming.

So people still put up stuff, but it's like they're less incentivized by the streaming revenue and it's hard to go on tour. So I feel like what I see in the general music industry is that the only way people are making... It's hard to make it as an independent artist. It's really hard to make it as an independent artist. So...

There are all these artists who are signing to labels because the label is providing them with the funding for the project. And maybe there's less, you know, innovation or experimentation or, you know, just like I think of like someone like a Patti Smith who is just kind of like a rebel poet kind of thing.

It's harder to pull that off these days for so many reasons, which makes me sad. And I feel like a lot of the kids who would in maybe in the 70s or 80s or 90s, who would have started bands or would have been a great singer songwriter, they're kind of doing other things instead. Like maybe they're on Substack or maybe they're on TikTok. So they're doing cool things. And I don't want to like disparage the creativity that kids are doing, but it feels like

like the music scene that we're talking about has definitely shifted recently. Do you feel that as well? No, I mean, it's so funny as you're saying that I'm like, I mean, I have no, I, I have no idea, you know, but in my, in my head, I'm like,

I hope not. That's so surprising. But I don't spend enough time, unfortunately, with teens to know. I just kind of assumed it was like it was when we were teens. And I guess I feel like I do know a lot of young artists or like I see a lot of bands of... And this is another broader issue that...

Well, I'll talk about it a little bit, I think. There's something...

As both of us are aging too, this is an interesting conversation. I certainly think that artists can evolve and make incredible music throughout their career. Often still, sometimes people's first albums are thought of as their best or just their most commercially successful or they never get out of – they're trying to recreate that. I think that's a recipe for –

you know, and not being necessarily, I think artists have to innovate for it to be good and they're innovating when it's new. Right. So part of it is that. And then I, yeah, I guess I just didn't know that. I just assumed that people were still making bands and still making music. And I, and I hope that that's true, but I'm sure you're right. Like I'm, I'm sure all those things make sense to me.

They still are, but I think it's just far less than it used to be. Such a bummer. For all those reasons, I think it's just harder to...

you know, break into the industry. And there's just other, there's just so many other platforms available for people to go, to, to, to go into, you know, like in the seventies, like what other than start a band, like what else could you do? I mean, you could write things or whatever, you could make a zine or something, you know, but they didn't have social media. So, I mean, I love social media. I'm, I'm a, I'm primarily like a social media content creator. I think that's a

such a fun way to make art, but then I just miss all the great music that we're missing because people are doing other things instead. But no, you know, it comes, it goes in cycles though. That's the thing. I mean, this is what I'm seeing because yes, all these, I see all these venues closing. Even I was really saddened by, you know, one place that I went for new music for, for years and years and years is Pitchfork.

And that's a website that has music reviews every day. And it was kind of like the standard critical music website. And they recently sold to GQ. And now they're kind of being integrated into the GQ brand and ecosystem. And like all the old writers are like no longer there. So now they've got different.

commercial things to appease to and things. So I just think in so many ways, like the culture in general, and like think of like real estate prices, like that's why a lot of the venues here in Austin and all over the country, by the way, are closing down because just the real estate costs are so high. It's hard to keep up with like a divy venue or something like that. So I feel like in a way, like the

the culture has kind of been in this state of decay and it never stays that way. Like whenever there's like, like a period of decay, like there's always a Renaissance. So that's why I host sunflower club. That's why I think it's so important for, you know, okay, we don't have these same venues to go to anymore. Like what can we do? Where can we gather? Like, I think when,

especially young people start to feel the need to, because, because community and art and music, and it's such a human need that we, we will always find a way and an outlet for that. So I'm just, I'm just excited about the potential for like this creative Renaissance, you know, in the world. And I think that we're kind of ripe for it, you know, like,

When's the last time there was a new music genre even? I mean, it's always changing. There's always things that are evolving. But I love thinking about the period in the late 70s in New York where within a few years, hip hop was invented. Punk rock was invented. New Wave was invented. And there was all this vibrant energy from people making shit up.

And I think that we're ripe for that sort of, you know, renaissance moment in culture and art and in music. Yeah, completely. It's always using new innovation, you know, like whether that's going electric or, you know, whatever. So that now becomes digital. And I think that, yeah, everything you're saying resonates. And I was just thinking too, and we'll get to this, but I think my...

personal music taste I've seen evolve, especially since 2020. And especially last year, actually, like this big shift towards pop, which we'll talk about. But I think part of that is maybe due to what you're saying is like another thing of becoming a musician, not to mention what you said economically and the resources that you need to even get a career going. And then the

ability to the stamina to tour and, and continue and have and support yourself becomes increasingly more challenging where, you know, the, the rise in cost of living has made it pretty difficult for, it used to be much easier to be a musician and a, and someone who waits tables and live in Los Angeles, you know, or, or now that's not really possible. And, and,

these there's not there it's more challenging to have be a be as someone building a music career and also supporting yourself with you know a a job in that way is not as as possible and then I think that's that's one thing and then this is a little bit of a oh well then the other thing too you have to be

you have to do social media, you know, regardless, even if you're a legacy artist, like you have to in the seventies, like you're giving the example of, or,

punk or whatever, you always had to craft a persona. It's not actually that different. Like I was thinking about this with Chalamet's press tour for the Dylan movie and it being so incredible and him doing such a good job. I'm like, well, he probably would have done a great job on Letterman and Leno and in the 90s too. You know, he would have just done a great job at what he needed to do then, but he's a native to this genre.

you know, so he knows what's effective now. And I think part of that is just like a star power, but I think there's something to be said for, um,

you know, having a skill set and being really good at one part of your job, often sometimes it means you're actually not great at the promotion side of things or it's just a different hat. And some people are really great at both. And it's, yeah, I think that's related to this conversation. And then this is the thing that's sort of separate, but I started this thought earlier about

artists' first albums or the music that they made when they were young being better. And my music listening has been so informed by Yossi Salik and Bansplain. And I love that podcast and I love her so much. And I've been thinking about her so much lately. And she said this thing that really feels true to me. And I'm curious how it lands with you. And it's not...

exactly related to what you're talking about more of the industry as a whole, but it is in terms of young people making music and how important that is, I think, because she says that there's this level of feeling and it's not ambition, but it's, and I'm completely paraphrasing here. She probably says this much more succinctly than I'm going to say it now, but it's basically like you have so much feeling and this pent up angst

when you're a teen and when you're in your early 20s and that level of emotion comes out into this music and it's very authentic and it can't really be recreated until she says and then when artists try to capture that again they can't

And that's where, you know, the sophomore, junior, senior slump sort of tries to be. If they go in a different direction and they evolve, then they can. But she says that still often the music won't surpass what it was at that time until they start to...

get close enough to contemplate death and get close enough to that because that emotion is then very similar to what they were feeling that angst from the beginning so then you can make really really great art and music once you get there but that middle period it make and that just makes so much sense to me so yeah I just and this is Yossi's thought but but I said it in a clunky way but I wanted to just tell you that James and see what you thought

I think there's something there for sure. Have you seen the new Bob Dylan movie, by the way? No, I haven't. And that's on our list to talk about. And let's do the Dylan segment now because we had a major Dylan segment in the last one and talked about how you made me a Dylan playlist. And I was just coming into...

being a fan and largely because of you. And I saw Cat Power do one of his iconic shows this year. So this was on our list. So take it away. Have you seen the movie yet? Yeah, I've seen it. And this is really relevant to what you just said. Because I think that...

Dylan's kind of my gold standard for an artist. And that could be because we're both from Minnesota. So I feel some solidarity with him. We're both from small towns in Minnesota. And we both ended up moving to New York. So yeah, I think Dylan's a great example of a lot of what we've talked about on this podcast because...

I mean, the movie's great. I don't have a lot to say about the actual movie. It's fantastic. It covers really the most kind of vital part of Dylan's career, which was he moved to New York from Minnesota and he started to play folk music in little cafes and then he got discovered. And initially what's cool about that period of Dylan's career is that at that time, this idea of a singer-songwriter

was not, he kind of started that because when he started off in singing folk music in New York, everyone sang covers. There were songwriters and then there were singers who would sing them. And then he came through with all of his own songs. And in fact, his first album, like the record company wouldn't even let him include his own songs. I think he maybe had two of his own songs on his first album. The rest were covers because that's what was standard.

And then he started to write his own and sing his own. And people were like, who wrote this? And they're like, he did. So he had this brilliant poetry that he was singing. And he sort of like set the template for being a singer-songwriter. And then, I mean, the real kind of, you know, like drama of the movie is then when he felt kind of boxed in by the folk scene. And he was getting really into rock and roll.

And, you know, we think of rock and roll as this amazing genre. I mean, rock and roll is like one of the greatest art forms of the 20th century, right? But at that time, it was still kind of teeny, teeny bop music. Like you'd have people like Elvis or like Buddy Holly. It was kind of like teen dance music. And it wasn't really respected artistically, right?

And then Dylan's like, okay, well, I've proven that I'm a great songwriter and I've written timeless songs. What if I took that same approach, but infused it with rock and roll? And then that's when he started writing his really classic material of the mid sixties, like stuff like, like a Rolling Stone and his classic albums. And he was really bringing this kind of like psychedelic beat poetry into

to rock and roll. And that was really shocking at the time. When he first played electric guitar at this folk festival, he got booed because people were furious that he was like, they thought he was insulting them with his rock and roll music. And then now we look back and that's like his most classic material. And it kind of defined what rock and roll could be as like

a form of high art. And then that actually went on to inspire the Beatles to make more experimental, innovative music as well. So just this idea of breaking rules and trying new things and really being an artist

you know, a lot of artists today I feel, and I respect them immensely, but they have teams around them, you know, songwriting teams and production teams. And it's like the artists themselves is one piece of a larger team or machine that puts it all together. And that's fine. You know, art takes a community sometimes, but it's a great reminder in the Dylan movie that like sometimes the best art is just like someone's

someone's own crazy vision that people don't even understand. But in following that crazy vision and going against the grain, you end up creating something that's more singular, just like the David Lynch stuff that we were talking about, that actually stands the test of time in a much bigger, profound way.

Yeah, completely. So what are some examples of this today? I mean, Charlie XCX comes to mind as an artist who's super innovative within the industry system. And I think that that definitely happened this year, this summer, or last year, I guess. I'm still warming up to being 2025. And

I think you have much more of a history of Charli XCX that I remembered from listening back to you are the one that put me on to her album that came out in the pandemic. So maybe talk about, is that an example of this? She has continued to impress me. Like, yeah, I think she was like on my best, like my favorite albums list in 2020. And she's like on my favorite albums list again in 2024. Yeah.

And what I love about her is like, that's not even a genre of music that I listen to. It's like electro pop, like techno pop.

It's actually called hyper pop, which is maybe the closest thing we have to a new genre recently. Are you familiar with the hyper pop phenomenon? No, no, but I just was nodding at like the closest thing we have to a new genre. And I think that's what I'm saying about like using computers as the new technology for music as, you know, as these other genres did with what the new technology was.

Yeah, I'm looking at what's her producer. Okay, she worked with a producer named AG Cook. And AG Cook is, he's kind of like the Mozart of hyperpop. There's, you know, Charlie XCX, you know, it's probably debatable whether or not she's hyperpop. But I think it's she's at least on the fringe. Hyperpop is like basically electronic pop music. That's what sounds like it's been sped up.

So it's almost like, I don't know, like a sugar rush or like a techno sugar rush. So it's like this kind of new-ish genre. And I don't know, Charli XCX, she's kind of like mastered it. Like she was this more just like this electronic pop artist. I never listened to her. I've heard of her. I knew she was critically acclaimed, but I never really, it wasn't for me.

And then she just kept innovating within the system. Like I was saying how like there are a lot of artists that in the past who have been independent, who like, you know, the punk band people, whether or like grunge or people that were just make edgy, innovative music kind of like on indie labels or independently and

And what I'm most impressed about Charli XCX is her ability to innovate and make really experimental music within the industry pop system and make it accessible. And her album in 2024...

It's called Brat. Hugely successful. She claimed a color. It's got this kind of neon green. The marketing of it alone was so iconic. The name Brat. I mean, I feel like it's like, it's as close as we have in the past five years to like a truly iconic album where like the album cover is iconic. It like lives beyond her. And the music, it's like, they're not, it's very poppy in a way, but

It's not traditional pop at all. Like the song structures are very weird, very experimental. And she's just ever with every album, like she had an album out like five years ago and I'm like, Oh, she made a really good album. This is probably the best album that she'll, that she'll make. It just feels like an important album for her career. And,

and then like the next one she made was better and then the next one she made was better and then the next one was brat which is like astounding so i just wanted to give her some props as someone who's like totally being experimental and doing her own thing and it shows how like it's counterintuitive sometimes when you when you try to conform your art to something that's going to fit into a template

that is proven to be popular. She could have easily have done that, but she went the other way and she's like, no, I'm going to bring, you know, I'm going to keep innovating as an artist. And, you know, what is she, she says she she's 30, 32 now. So, you know, in her thirties, she's, you know, several, several, several albums into her career, but she's still trying new things. And yeah, I respect her a lot for that.

Yeah, and I'm stoked to see what she does next. I mean, yeah, it's – I think it's such a case study in the marketing of that

album is so iconic and what happened to that. And it created an entire moment, you know, of Brat Summer and everybody knew about it. And I think that's really, that alone is iconic outside, outside of the music, which, you know, which itself is, is excellent. So if that's a new genre recently, I think, and I, and I could be wrong, but I feel like the last album,

new genre that I can think about in our lifetime, or I guess it was before, before our lifetime, but we saw it really grow and maybe hit, you know, really high point was, was hip hop. And can you talk about the current state of your thoughts on, on that right now?

Yeah, well, I'm a big hip hop fan. That's definitely like one of my core genres. I remember discovering hip hop as a teenager and going deep into Tupac and Biggie and all that stuff, Nas, Jay-Z. So I was really, you know, had an initiation into hip hop. I even remember in high school, I remember I had a friend that was a rapper.

And we had like this little small town in Minnesota, right? But I had a friend who was a rapper and I, and he made a cassette and I, and I would help him dub the cassette. So we would, we would record the cassettes onto another cassette, you know, and dub it. And I, I helped him like, we'd show up to school early to sell the cassettes in the parking lot. Like, so, so. Is he still making music? Yeah.

He is. I mean, he's a little, yeah, you know, he still is actually. But so I love hip hop and hip hop's changed too in so many ways. You know, hip hop used to really be about lyricism and about lyrics and bars and beats. And like there was this kind of classic hip hop sound. And you think about someone like Jay-Z who's kind of epitome of that classic hip hop sound. And what's happened since then, it's actually really interesting. Like

Like there aren't a lot of like new, new, new genres recently, but I feel like there's a lot of blending of genres. That's what's happening now maybe where it's like, there are no new genres, but also like there are kind of no genres in a way. So much more accepted to blend things together and mix it up into a pot and like integrate it and then have a new expression with all the available ingredients at your disposal.

So since Jay-Z, I feel like hip hop has gotten more, it's kind of gotten more sensitive in a way and more melodic in a way. Like I feel like the culture shifted to where that kind of like braggadocious, masculine violence that hip hop used to embody and like glorifying crime and violence. That's just kind of not, that's just kind of not what the,

where the culture is at as much. So I feel like, you know, since Jay-Z, you had Kanye who would mix different genres and he would sing and he would, you know, sample Daft Punk and just kind of mix other things into the hip hop, you know, melting pot.

And then after Kanye, then it's like Drake and Kid Cudi, where people are really singing and rapping about emotions. And it became a much more introspective medium than it used to be, which I think is really interesting. I love to see that evolution as the culture evolves, to see how the music evolves with it. And now one of the hip hop artists that I'm most excited about is Lil Yachty.

And, I mean, I don't know, like a lot of people might know his name. I don't know how many people listen to Lil Yachty. Like, I guess if I had to give him a genre, like what he's known for is like mumble rap. It's called mumble rap where they just kind of like repeat things. And like his, I think his big, his first big hit was just like,

It gets cold like Minnesota, cold like Minnesota, cold like Minnesota. And that's scratching it for you. Exactly. That's like the whole song, which, you know, it was catchy, but it wasn't that great. But man, he put out an album a couple years ago. It's called Let's Start Here. And it is like this hip hop psychedelic.

experimental masterpiece. There's at times when I'm listening to it, when I think it's Pink Floyd. And I'm like, what is this? And it's just so weird. It's like Charlie XCX in the sense that it's so weird, but still strangely accessible. So he's someone who I've been excited about. And then

last year. I actually remember when this came out because it must've been the end of June because I remember I was in the hospital. We were in the hospital for a few days getting ready for our baby to come. And I was taking a little drive just to get some air. And then the new Lil Yachty album had just come out and it was a collaboration album with James Blake. And James Blake is another of my favorite artists. James Blake is like

He's kind of like an electronic producer, but if an electronic producer was like a classical musician. So he makes like pop electronic music, but with the sensibility of like this classic, really well orchestrated, well-arranged music. So he in and of himself is this experimental musician.

Maestro. And then he collaborated with, with, with, with Lil Yachty on this album. And apparently they just had fun with it. Like I listened to an interview with them talking about it and they said that it was the most fun they've ever had making music. Cause there was no rules. And they said it felt like recess where they were just like, let's try this. And then like almost all the songs are just like first takes and

from Lil Yachty. Like James Blake would like make a beat like in the room like in real time in like two minutes and then they would play it and like basically Lil Yachty would like freestyle over it and it's strangely compelling and there are moments in that album that there's just things I've never heard quite like that. So it just reminds me that like there are no rules

And it's a great idea how sometimes it's like doing something completely unexpected can have the most beautiful outcome. Completely. I mean, it goes back to Lynch. It goes back to, I think Bowie is such a great example of this, but anytime you're doing it for you and what's like, like us doing this, following what's interesting, um,

to someone themselves is what's interesting creatively, which is then what's most interesting to consume as an audience, I think. It can be felt. Absolutely. Yeah, I think you can definitely just feel where someone's coming from. Just to go back to your point that that person made about, okay, your first album was

You've got all these life experiences that you're just like, can't wait to share and you're doing it for the first time. So it is fresh and it is, it's innovative. That's your first time doing something or making an album, you know, or writing a book. This could apply to any kind of art. And then, yes, if you try to recreate what you did, like, and follow the template of what you did, you're not being fresh.

true and sincere to where you are at that moment like I think to make good art continuously over a career whether you're David Lynch or Bob Dylan or Charlie xcx or Lil Yachty art is a statement about how you're thinking and feeling in the moment and I I think that like

I really love Buddhism and Zen Buddhism. And there's this idea in Buddhism called the beginner's mind, where it's like kind of not dwelling in the past and not relying on the knowledge that you've accumulated and what you think you know. You're like, oh, this is how you make a song. I'm going to follow this template. But like going into every single project as a beginner, right?

assuming you don't know anything and how would you start this if you didn't have all of your knowledge and experience? And how can you make art from where you are in the moment? So like, so like, and you can wait till you're like, you said, like she said, you had to wait until you're kind of getting ready to almost die before you had that perspective. But I think that perspective can be available to us, especially at key moments, like my favorite Dylan album, which

It's called Blood on the Tracks. And he made it, I think, in his late 30s. And it's like his divorce album where it's like he had this great period in his career. And then he kind of fell out of the spotlight and he was not as popular and his albums weren't super successful. And then he had a divorce and he had his heart broken.

Instead of shying away from that, he made an album directly about it. And for me, it's like his most riveting, personal, vulnerable album. So I love the idea of wherever you are in your life, whether that's in a good place or a bad place, like how can you show up and shine?

give an honest reflection of where you're at, no matter where that is. And it might not always work, but like drawing from real emotions, real life experiences, there's just something in that that can be felt that really can't be faked. Yeah, completely. And I want to clarify too, I think what she's saying is not that you have to like wait until you're like so close to death or that much older, but just until you're

contemplating something different, you know, like maybe you've contemplated youth and the, you know, the,

that angst that from in the first album or the first couple albums, but when you, when you get your heart broken or you get divorced or you, you know, experience some, not, not that you're contemplating death that your own getting closer and older, just that you're contemplating death because you've had some loss, you know? And I think that takes a couple of years. I think there's like so much to be written about when you're young. And then, um,

And then there's so much to be written about when you've experienced life of it. There's even more to be. There's so much richness with that. But I think once you, if you're trying to explore the same things, I think we're saying the same thing. We're talking about evolution. Yeah.

when you're trying to, once you get there, it's like, oh, you can absolutely have something to write about. It's like this comedian I love, he always says, you have to live a life worth commenting on, you know, and I think you have to have experiences and be out in the world. And when one becomes famous or something gets really big, like, you know, I think a commentary on fame is actually quite interesting. And I think, you know, Brat speaks to that a bit as well. But I think it's,

Yeah, having experiences is necessary. And, you know, comedians continuing to have experiences as they grow. And anyway, I'm kind of getting off topic. But yeah, I just, I agree. And I think, you know, going back to the genre thing, and this will bring us, you know, this will bring us to the end, I guess. And we can just sort of say some of our favorite music. Genre-wise, since we did this last time, and what we did last,

we'll continue this tradition a little bit and do it in a sort of rapid fire way. But what we did back then was we both chose three albums from that year, from 2020.

And then a plethora of songs that we liked and we'll kind of leave people with some of both of those. And funnily enough, you mentioned Pitchfork. I think I got the idea for that and I called James to do it originally in 2020 because I was listening to so much of the Pitchfork podcast and they were doing all of these, as so many music podcasts do now, of ranking and end of the year. And I was like, we

we could do that, you know, and not that I'm qualified in any way, but I just thought it would be fun. And so that's how this really began. But if I was, if I was a music critic, which I am so clearly not the evolution that I've seen in the last, as a consumer, the evolution genre wise, you know, outside of what we've already discussed of the lack of new genres and you mentioned hyper pop, but I also have noticed, you know,

go in a new direction since we spoke last, for sure. And it was sort of funny in the time capsule, you had just moved to Austin and you were like, yeah, country is something that I'm going to try to explore more because I go into stores now and they're playing country. And I'm sure that you can speak to that. And being in Austin, like it seems to be more everywhere. And then also, like you said, it's just all kind of, all the music is kind of,

blended into one and I noticed last year and started in 2023 maybe but listening to so much pop music and unapologetically and I had a real like I'm sure I've always noted you about this but I had a real reckoning I think this year where I and by this year I mean last year where I just realized I'm like

Oh my God, pop music is incredible and I love it. And I think I didn't listen to it or allow myself to listen to it in an attempt to be cool. You know, like I had all these dudes I had crushes on making me CDs with like indie music. And it's like,

And I love that too, but I think I put a part of myself aside to be, you know, what Pitchfork and these people, and that's a bad example because I know Pitchfork commends pop music too, but you know what I mean? Like the, just the broader conversation when we were like in high school and younger was like not liking pop music was a cool thing to do. It felt like for me. And so I had this, you know,

like return in a way and there was just so much great pop music and it was really fun and it really like made you know it made me feel like a teen girl in this way I think I really needed and you know I am uh a teen stuck in a 30 something year old's body often but yeah I just that that's another genre thing that I I want to mention it does that mirror your experience at all

Yes. Actually, I have two things that I want to say about that. The first, and I already told you this. Yes. So I was going to leave you a voice note about this, but I forgot. So we both got into, speaking of albums for 2024, we both got into Olivia Rodrigo. We sure did. And...

This is a funny story. So Britta, as you know, she's not doing it now because she's a new mom. But she has traditionally been a... She does like facial massage. Like gua sha relaxing facial massage. And she has a little studio here in Austin. And she has a little speaker in there that she can play soft relaxing music while she's giving these face massages. Now, for some reason, the speaker that she had really would favor my iPhone. Like...

it would always disconnect her iPhone and connect mine. And on this day, she was miles away. She was miles away in her studio. I wasn't even close. I wasn't even close. I'm at home. I play on my iPhone Olivia Rodrigo.

Because I was going through that phase where I was enjoying her album. And her speaker somehow picked it up on the other side of town. And she's giving someone this like relaxing, relaxing face massage. And then suddenly my Olivia Rodrigo starts blasting through her speaker.

Oh my God, that's so funny. I realized when you said you had an Olivia Rodrigo story to tell me, I realized I have one to tell you too. And I thought you were going to say that she was in town and you probably couldn't tell me this if this was true, but that she was there and Britta was giving her a facial massage and then her music started to play. That would have been cool too, but...

Oh my god, that's wild. I agree with you. I think that there is, yes, I mean, she's an example of how someone who's very young can just like come out of nowhere and make just really compelling new music. And she's blending pop with some punky elements. And now, yeah, I really liked her album. And pop in general, like pop is great. You know, a great melody is, it's timeless and it's really enjoyable to listen to.

But I will say that since moving to Austin, I have a much deeper appreciation of country music. Because like you, I mean, I was never really into it. I'm still not super into it. I like the classics, you know, Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, people like that. But now experiencing like the Austin, the Texas honky-tonk scene is something that will leave...

indelible mark on you. And it's like Austin specifically is weird. Like, you know, coming up, like how this, the music scene in Austin, like the music scene was used to always be in Nashville. The country music scene was based in Nashville. And that was like the country version of the pop music industry thing. It was very like tightly controlled industry session players, songwriters. It was like, it's like, it was like this, it was like this country music machine that

You know, this is like in the 60s. And Willie Nelson was someone who lived in Nashville and he was this kind of clean cut songwriter who was writing songs for other people. And he was never able to really break through into being a solo artist. He just didn't fit into this Nashville scene. So he was from Texas. He ended up like saying, screw this. I cannot...

I can't, I don't, I don't fit in here. So he left Nashville, moved to Austin and grew a beard, started smoking a lot of cannabis and started playing at these honky tonks around Austin where he would play this kind of like old school country jazz and like, just kind of like blend these genres together in these weird honky tonks.

and express himself fully in a way that wouldn't have been accepted in Nashville. And when he did that, and he allowed himself to express himself so kind of vulnerably, that's when he actually blew up. And he was actually the biggest selling country artist of the 70s. So there's that legacy kind of lives on in Austin. There's so many weird country artists and honky-tonks.

And I've been, I've seen little shows at, at these, at random Austin honky tonks that are like off the beaten path. And it felt like I was in a time capsule because it's like, they were still playing country music as it was played in like the forties and fifties. And at that time, like we, I don't know when I think of country music now, sometimes it's a little boring. It's a little bit like,

But like you, it used to be exciting. Like it, it was like, it was like barn burners and it, but it's like still country and people are dancing. So I, I, I appreciate country so much more when I've seen it, like almost like in the style of Hank Williams, where it's,

Kind of like a hillbillies vibe, but with so much vibrancy and energy behind it that it feels really, it compels you to move your body. And you don't like think of country as like compelling you to move your body, but that's what it used to be like. So it's just seeing slivers of that around Austin has just made me appreciate Austin.

country and like the roots of country and how it was such a fun like community genre that really like lit people up that's so cool yeah and it's it was foreshadowing you know you you called it you said you were like I'm gonna I think I'm gonna get more into this and it's so so interesting you know hearing you did five years later and I love that

All right. So for our future selves five years from now, perhaps, let's just, you know, we only have a couple minutes left. I'll just kind of, and we'll do it a little bit different than we did last year, vacillating back and forth. I'm just going to kind of throw out

What I listen, none of this will shock you because I think I've been keeping you up to date voice texting as I listened to a lot of this or sent you some albums that I found. But I'm going to just start by sharing like a couple albums I listened to. I know we'll have some overlap here. And then I made a little playlist with some songs and then hopefully you can do the same.

But I'll start with Guts, Olivia Rodrigo's second album, because when you brought up that story, I was like, oh my God, I meant to text you something. Or maybe I did. Did I text you this when it happened that I met her? Wait, no. No.

I'm just realizing, yeah, I think we both have the same moment when we mentioned her that we were like, wait, we had something that we meant to text each other about this and didn't until right now. Okay. I was on my way. I was trying to, you know, when you go to like crossroads to sell clothes, I was on my way home and I had them in the back of my car and I was like, oh, okay.

wow I didn't realize one opened on sunset in Silver Lake and I was like driving by and I had I'm babysitting this dog named Pretzel that I that I babysit all the time and Pretzel can't really be left alone so I'd have to like bring Pretzel in I'm like I don't even know if I'm gonna do this but whatever it's right here let me just try so I pull up and I park in like a spot that like wasn't even quite a spot and I and I just kind of run in there and it all just sort of worked out quite well like the security guard was like yeah you can just pull up there yeah bring your dog whatever

And so I come outside and I end up getting like the perfect pair of vintage Levi's that fit perfectly when I really needed, you know, a new pair. And I come out, it was just like a whole magical, you know, five minutes. And then I come out and Pretzel, the dog is licking someone's legs and really, really just on this girl and this young, really gorgeous, beautiful girl and her boyfriend. And I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. This is Pretzel. And I'm looking up and I'm like,

Like, she looks really familiar. And I'm like, yeah, how are you? And just chatting. And then it hits me. And I'm like, it's Olivia Rodrigo. And I'm talking to her and she got in a haircut. And I was like, oh my. I had that moment like, do you say, do you not say? And she's like, this is my boyfriend. And I meet him. And I just talked to them for a while. And then I got in the car and my heart was racing. And I was kind of sweaty because it was just so hot.

I mean, I listened to her all the time. I watched video. It was just, you know, I've, and I've met celebrities before like that, but it was just, I'd never, I'd never, I was starstruck. I can't believe you didn't tell me that. That's crazy. I know you're a fan. Like, I know like you're the only person that I talked to after we go about, cause we both like her. That's fascinating. I love that. I can't believe I did it. I don't really celebrity celebrity encounters. I usually don't.

Like, I'm not interested, but that's a cool one. I know. I know. It was so wild, too. And her outfit was so great. She was wearing these really great... She's so pretty. I was just like, oh, my God. And she just was wearing shorts and a sweater and, like, boots. And I was like, oh, my God, I want to dress like that. And then I was like, wait, I'm not a teen. I don't look like her. But I had that moment. It was just...

It was so, yeah, it was really, I, I, yeah, I cannot believe I didn't. And I think I was just so flabbergasted that it had happened that I just got in the car and like drove home. But I, I really did think of texting you like immediately. Cause you're, yeah, you're my, you're the person I text about Olivia Rodrigo. Yeah.

I didn't meet him, but I once walked right past Henri 3000 in New York. Oh, my God. We were like the only, like there was, it was like an empty street. We were the only people on the street and we crossed like right by each other. Was he playing with Lou? Or this was long before? No, he wasn't. No, he was still in that. It was a couple of years ago, but yeah.

He wasn't playing the flute, unfortunately. That would have been epic. But I was so, I was like, I have nothing to say. Like, I would love to say something, but I don't know what to say. So I'm just going to let him be. Just give him that free space without a fan.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. I could go on about like funny celebrity encounters, but we'll, we'll do that later. But that his, his album, I mean that the flute album, the title of it, the title of each track, hearing him talk about it. Like that was such, I think that was, that was 2023, right? Or was that the. No, that was 2024. Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll do that one because I forgot about that album. Yeah. That one was, was so. You know, just like, like, like.

No one's ever done that. Like, this is someone who was a hip-hop legend, is a hip-hop legend. Like, for people that have never listened to Outkast, Outkast is...

such this legendary weird rap group. Like they, they pushed boundaries in the nineties that no one was pushing. They were, they were making all kinds of weird music and just like one of the, one of the greatest rappers ever. And one of the most innovative rappers ever. And one of the most thoughtful and intelligent rappers ever.

And then he took years and years away. He just stopped making music. And everyone's like, once in a while he'd show up and do a guest verse on a song, but he was just disappeared. And there was rumors that he was like starting to play the flute and that he was getting into the flute. And then he puts out this flute album and it is like,

To say it's not hip hop is an understatement. There's like no hip hop. It's not, it's not like it's a hip hop flute album. There's no hip hop. There's no vocals. It's just ambient flute. And I didn't get a chance to go when he came here in Austin, but like my buddy went and he was selling out big shows and he made ambient flute music.

cool again for the, you know, like maybe, maybe cool for the first time. I don't know. Best thing that's happened to the flute since Lizzo. And, and, and I think he's, and that album is nominated for album of the year at the Grammys, an ambient flute album. So like shout out to him for the bravery to, you know, a lot of artists change, you have changed genres and,

but not so drastically, not so drastically. That's a complete 180. And he did it so gracefully and so cool. And just hearing him in interviews talk about his transition to the flute. I mean, like what a true, what a true artist.

Yeah, completely. He, and even the title of it, I think it's, I don't know exactly, but it's something like it's super long and it's like, I really wanted to make another rap album, but you know, this is like, or whatever it is. It's in each title of the track, each track title is so great. And I listened to him talk about the album. The album is called new blue sun, but the tracks, yeah. The first track of the album is,

I swear, I really wanted to make a rap album, but this is literally the way the wind blew me this time. Yeah, exactly. That's beautiful. Yeah, so good.

Okay, so that one was on my list. And then, yeah, we already talked about Guts, but I guess I'll just do like a, I'll just toss out, you know, I feel like I'm kind of running against the clock now, but I'm going to just toss out a couple of the pop girls that, you know, Olivia being one of them. And I listened, I liked Brutal, but that first album didn't really do it for me. But when Guts came out,

I loved it. Like, and I still, you know, some of the ballads are skips for me. Not that I think they're incredible. It's just not for me. But so many of those songs, I just love to listen to loud in the car and on my hikes. And they just make me so happy. And I also, you know, I do. We talked about this voice texting where I was like, I feel like I'm too old to be listening to this. But if this is wrong, I don't want to be right, you know, and I...

I leaned in and I, and I'm glad that I did. And then I love chapel. I really loved casual and so many of the lyrics of these songs. Yeah.

Most recently, I've gotten into, and I think that, I think Sabrina's great. I really, this new album of hers, I think there's so many songs I love on there, especially Taste. That one's my favorite. And Beyonce's album, I really love the song Bodyguard on that one.

But Gracie Abrams is a new one for me that I don't even know how much I've told you that I've been listening to her. And none of the other albums, I just, you know, didn't really do it for me. I'm sure they're great. But there's a couple songs on this new one that I just have on repeat. And I really, really love. Two Augusts ago, I told the truth. Oh, but you didn't like it. You went on your own by surprise.

So that's been kind of my pop corner. And then I really loved this album last 20, I guess this would have been 2023. I got really into Blonde Shell to the point where I like really was pushing it on James. I think we actually talked about it in the episode that you came on last year because, and I think I put a clip of the song in actually because it must have just been on my mind, but

We were, we, it was one of the lyrics reminded me of something that you said and, and yeah, I just, that, that album in particular, I think it was, it just mirrored a situation I was going through and I, I really, really loved it. And I, she has a new album coming out soon or coming out, I think in the spring, which I'm excited about, but I, I love Blanchelle. Something different. I bet she talks to.

Like she's on a mission

I made this little, let me check my, and I also, I listened to a lot of Yola Tango in these last five years since we last spoke because one of my friends, it's his favorite band and he made me a CD of like, kind of like you did with Dylan, like my starter pack. And so I would drive around. It was the only CD I had in my car. So I would just listen to it so much. And then we went to see them live and it was one of the best shows I've ever seen. It was so fun. ♪

I loved, you know, I mentioned Big Thief last time. I'm a big, big thief person. And I think I've seen them two or three times since we recorded last, but I loved their new album or the newest album. And in that time too, like Big Thief,

Buck's album I loved and he did the podcast and I saw Adrian Linker when I was in the cast on crutches and we were in the nosebleeds and I had to crutch all the way up it was actually like very steep but I got to see see her play and I love her new album yeah totally worth it you you need to

And then there's a couple other just like super quick. Oh, I love Big Thief. Oh yeah, please go for it. The lead singer, Adrian Linker. Really true classic singer-songwriter. Like, I don't even like, usually on a Big Thief album or on the new Adrian Linker album, I don't like every single song, but the ones that I like, I love.

So like she's definitely one of the best, in my opinion, like classic singer songwriter. Like some of her writing gives me goosebumps because it's like I can't believe you just put that into a song. It's so like weird and psychedelic and introspective. So I love her and them and I have not got a chance to see them live yet.

You must. I think you would really love it and maybe we can together someday. And I guess just I'm looking at my little playlist. I mean...

I loved this band Wishy. That was the one that I felt like I discovered, at least for me, this year. And there's this song from their last album called Spinning that I think is my favorite song of theirs. But they had this album come out this year called Triple Seven, and I sent it to James. And then it spawned us to talk about how we both were... That James had... I mean, we won't even...

begin to cover this in the little time we have, but we had a magical conversation about numerology because James and Britta have a seven connection. - Seven, seven, seven, seven, I mean, my birthday is seven, seven.

And I see seven, seven and seven, seven, seven everywhere. So the fact that you just sent me an album called seven, seven, seven was great synchronicity and also not surprising at this point. Yeah. It was so bizarre because I, I discovered this band and I was like, Oh man, I love this. I want to talk. Like it's not uncommon. Like we just said for me to send you music, but for some reason I was just like, send it to you immediately. Like I didn't even really like spun it that much. Like when I sent it to you, I was just like, wait, I think you'd like this. And yeah,

Then I kept seeing Seven Everywhere 2 and it made us talk about it. That was like a really bright part of my last year that I'm remembering now. And then just a couple of super quick ones. I really like Wet Leg. I like the song Wet Dream. I really like, I got to see PJ Harvey this year. That was incredible. She's such an incredible performer. And this song called I Want to Be Your TV. That song is really cool. I'll always be your enemy.

And then...

Yeah, everything else is kind of old. I listened to a lot of George Harrison this year. I listened to a lot of Liz Phair. I listened to a lot because of Bandsplain. I got really into listening to Pavement and The Breeders and going back to things because of Yossi Salik's show Bandsplain, which I love so much. And if people haven't listened to it, they should definitely listen to it. And I've been thinking about Yossi so much because she lost her house recently and

I've just been so grateful for everything that that show has given me in the last five years. And

Yeah, it's just, I mean, that's, yeah, I just, I love her so much. And okay, the ones that we, that I didn't mention before I like hand it over to you, just two that I know that we'll, that we share. We already mentioned Sufjan's album, that most recent album. That was very impactful, I can say for both of us. And then also the latest, the latest. Oh, Waxahachie. Tiger's Blood, Tiger's Blood.

I met her at a show. Oh my God. That is so cool. How was that? It was cool. I mean, I'm friends with Jess Williamson, which is, it was the show was planes, which is Waxahachie, Katie and, and Jess. So I know Jess and I went to the, just kind of die bar after the show and, and Jess and Katie were there and I got a chance to talk to Jess and, and meet Katie and tell her how much I loved her music.

so that was cool so cool yeah we both loved that album my favorite song on it is three sisters take it easy on your opponent it plays on my mind oh and mj lenderman i love his new album so much have you been listening to that much not as much i like him i mean i like what i've heard i haven't like sat down and pressed play on the whole album but

No, it's great stuff. It's good. Yeah, I think you'd really like it. Okay, now your turn. Any, just, you know, toss out everything like I did. Well, I'm going to, I actually had an idea. So I already covered some of my favorites, which are Charlie XCX, as well as the Lil Yachty James Blake album.

collab album. I'm going to pivot and I'm going to name a couple music documentaries that came out last year that I really like. Oh, cool. Amazing. Two came to mind. One is it's the documentary of the making of the song, We Are the World.

I really want to see that. No, I saw it. It's way better than you might even think. Cause like that's most people are maybe familiar with that song. It was the eighties. They put together this, it was like a charity for Africa and all of these, all the famous artists of the eighties essentially were on the track. Yeah.

Dylan, I mean, Michael Jackson wrote the chorus, Stevie Wonder, Cyndi Lauper. - Lionel Richie, right? - Lionel Richie, there's a lot, there's dozens. And they had camera people during the entire creation, even of the writing of the song, like it shows Michael Jackson humming to himself

And it shows him coming up with, we are the world. We are the children. Like it covers the moment that he came up with that. And there was camera people in the studio the entire night. And this happened the night of the Oscar, the Grammys, because...

That's why all these artists were in the same place. So Lionel Richie like hosted the Grammys and he won a bunch of Grammys. And then after the Grammys were over, all of these artists went to the studio and recorded this song together and it took them all night and they have like the footage of it all.

Wow. It's such a great time capsule. It's such a, and whether you like the song or not doesn't matter. It was such a, it was just like a moment in music history that was just so unique. So definitely recommend that one. And then the other night we watched, there's this new documentary about Yacht Rock.

Oh, yes. I've heard so much about that. I've been wanting to watch that really bad. It's very good as well. I actually learned a lot. Yeah, I'm stoked to watch that. Speaking of genres, that wasn't even a genre. Yacht Rock refers to the sound of music that was kind of in the late 70s, early 80s. And it's kind of poppy, but with synths and it's more of a groove to it, like Steely Dan, right?

Who would else even be considered yacht rock? Let me see. Yacht rock artists. The Doobie Brothers, Toto, and people that I don't even really know very well, like Kenny Loggins and Christopher Cross. So a lot of people who were big artists, who most people would know their music, but we might not even know who they are. I barely know who Kenny Loggins is, but...

There are a lot of songs that he made that I know very well. So it's this kind of weird short-lived phase of music that never really had a name. It was just kind of popular and then it went away. And then in, I think it was in 2005, these people did this like sketch comedy, independent sketch comedy, like internet video where they called it Yacht Rock. And they did this whole thing about Yacht Rock. And that sort of like,

20 years after the fact gave the genre a name and like brought it back into public consciousness. So the, the documentary just shows the history of the music and like who was involved and what makes something yacht rock. And, um, that was a great like musical history, you know, piece of time to watch. Yeah. I got to watch that. It's on my list. Those are great. Did you wait, did you say you have one, one more? Um,

Those are the two. I've probably seen some more. Those are the two that really stood out as like must-sees. Yeah. No, those are great. I don't have a new one to offer, but I rewatched this like every couple of years. There's this George Harrison documentary that I just love so much. And it's very cozy to me to rewatch it. I don't even know. It's like living in the material world.

Yes. That's the one. We watched that this year too. Yeah. Yeah. It's very good. It's very good. Well, I mean, I skipped over this cause it's so good, but the, the Beatles documentary, I almost didn't mention that cause it's so good. I hope you've seen it, but if you haven't, there's this long documentary, like several episodes that shows literally behind the scenes footage of the Beatles making their final album.

Yeah, I think that that that's like another in the last five years since we did the last one of these that's like of music documentaries, the real peak of all time, probably. Yeah, wow.

Completely. Truly. All right. This was incredible. And I somehow feel we didn't even scratch the surface. We didn't utter Taylor's name one time. We didn't, which we, I'll just say we could have, and we do in the, in the group chat and the group chat with each other. So that's for, that's for another, another day, but I just, I am so grateful. I love you. Everyone get, get,

all of James's books and you can work with James and you can also work, you can work in them in several different capacities and all the info will be in the show notes. But before we do the deep breath, is there anything else that you want to let people know or about how to find you or just in general?

Oh, yeah. Words are vibrations on Instagram. And my new book is called The Art of You, The Essential Guidebook to Reclaiming Your Creativity. And yeah, you can find that on my Instagram.

It's my favorite book of last year. And if you want to hear more about it, I think our episode from last year about it will – I'll say this. If I listen to that, it would make me want to read it because I love talking to you about it. And I think that would be a really great place for people to start if they miss that one to go back. Absolutely. And, yeah, follow everything that –

James says you probably already follow him on Instagram. And if you if you don't, when you go and see you're going to be stoked because he's my favorite person to follow. And I'm just yeah, I'm so I'm so grateful that you took the time to do this with me. Oh, anytime, Katie. I'm still listen, we've talked about this. We're going to start our own music podcast at some point. So this is just this is just a preview.

We really have. We have kicked around the idea of doing this annually, of starting another podcast. I really believe that collaboration is in our future significantly. I'm here for it. All right. Let's end by letting out a deep breath. Inhale. Let it out. We did it. Thank you. Thank you.

Alright, that's the episode. Thank you to James for being here. I also didn't mention so much music that I wish that I would have. I listened to so much Bully this year. I listened to...

God, you know what? I'll make a playlist because I forgot to mention many, many of my favorites. And yeah, I'll do that. So thanks again so much for listening. Thank you to James. Follow him. Words are vibrations on Instagram, like he said. Get yourself a hard copy of his books. And, you know, you'll hear us together on a podcast at some point soon. So...

We'll go out with one of the songs that I forgot, but for now, this is the episode. I so appreciate you listening, and I'll talk to you next week. This podcast is edited by the incredible Jeremiah. He helped me put in all these clips of these songs, and I am so grateful. Okay, talk to you soon. Bye. Thanks for listening. Sometimes I get you out

Outro Music