Romani Wisdom & Creative Practice: Jezmina & Paulina on Fortune Telling
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We have seen difficult things, our ancestors have seen difficult things. We draw on resilience where we can, but sometimes resilience looks just like gritting your teeth and making it through the day, and that's okay. You don't have to be a pinnacle of mental health through your darkest time. Okay, hi. How's everybody doing? How's it going? How is 2025 feeling for you so far?

It's feeling pretty weird for me over here. This episode was recorded just a couple days ago and the fires in LA have just been devastating and I have been so sad about it and sad for the city and it's just incredibly heartbreaking and destabilizing and as I spoke about in the intro of last week's episode if you tuned in to that

you heard me kind of processing in even more real time, but yeah, I feel like everyone in this city, including myself, you know, has not really slept very well and we're all very dysregulated because of all the alerts and evacuation notices. And of course, you know, in comparison to the people who have been displaced and lost everything, I am so lucky to be

recording this from my apartment where I am safe. So this conversation covers that a bit because I hopped on here and recorded this and I had just flown in the door from volunteering for several days and I realized I had kind of burnt myself out a bit and I wanted to help as much as I could and wanted to genuinely be useful but I was trying to discern how to do that and

You hear me in process trying to sort that out. But who I speak to are two people. We have two guests this week, two lovely people that you're about to hear from. And this is how it came to be. So as you might know, I've been doing this for a while, so I get a lot of emails about people wanting to come on the show or publicists or, you know, it's brought some...

people I never would have expected to get to talk to or, you know, probably in another avenue wouldn't have gotten to meet. And I try to read all these emails and especially, you know, when an email comes from a friend, when an email comes from someone you know,

the open rate is much higher, you know? So, so anyway, someone I used to work with, her name is Carla. Years and years ago, I saw her name in my inbox and it was so good to hear from her. And

This email was recommending one of the guests today. And so I'm actually going to just read a little bit. So this is what Carla says.

Her book is super interesting. It shows how many of today's wellness trends come from Romani culture, a community that's often misunderstood and persecuted throughout history. It's got some great historical info, personal stories, and even teaches you how to do some divination yourself all while being super respectful and authentic. Jasmina is genuine and her culture deserves recognition. So I was like, okay, cool. Connect us. I would love that. Sounds great.

So Carla connects me with Jasmina, who you're about to hear from, and then Jasmina told me that she'd love to have her co-host of the Romanistan podcast, Paulina, also on, and they co-wrote this book together. So we booked it, and we had to reschedule. I had to reschedule everything.

at the end of last year. And so then this was on the calendar for Monday on this day, like I said, where, you know, the fires and the devastation here was so fresh and I was kind of flying in, but...

to have this on the calendar and grateful to get to speak to them. And it was really lovely and it was really grounding. But, you know, you'll hear me kind of talking about that and processing that at the beginning. And then we get into talking about their heritage and their differences with that. They both grew up a little bit differently and they talk about how they experienced

both work together and their process and how they work with people and they share advice about how to handle feeling uninspired or creatively blocked. We talk about embracing resilience and the importance of bringing diverse perspectives to everything. Anyway, here's our conversation that just happened a couple days ago and right now I'm recording this on Thursday and I

They are both so kind. They gifted me tarot readings. And I just got off of a Zoom with Jasmina, and I can't recommend doing a tarot reading more highly. It was so wonderful getting to connect with her, and she read me like a book. Yeah, it was... Everything felt just...

I don't really have the words for it right now other than it just felt really correct and like, yeah, that's what's happening. That's what I need to do. That's right. Like it just validated a lot of things, put words to things I had been feeling and I really got a lot of value out of it. So here's my conversation with the two of them and it's always a little bit tricky when there's two people that I'm interviewing but you'll figure out who's who and...

Just take it in. All right. Thanks so much for being here and thanks to them for coming on. Okay, cool. It's nice to meet both of you and it's been really nice preparing for this and getting to explore your work today. And I listened to the LA Times podcast with you, Paulina, and reading about your work. And I'm stoked to talk to you both. Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, thank you. Well, before we get into any of it, I hope that it's okay if I ask about some of your wisdom or any wisdom that either of you can share with

Just about uneasiness. I was talking a little bit before we started recording about what has happened in the last week here where I live in LA and being in this midst of this massive disaster right around me is making it very difficult to focus on much else. And so I'm curious how both of you feel

handle times where they're high stress and obviously not necessarily in the same circumstances, but just any wisdom you can offer for times of crisis. Paulina, do you want to take that one first? I know you love digging into the dark stuff right away. I was just going to say my answer is like,

So dark. But I guess it's really horrible. But I always just think it could be worse. And I think of the worst, darkest times. Like I think of times where I've just experienced mourning or obviously someone you love passing away. I picture all the times I was hurt, betrayed, and my kids were missing. I don't know. Like I think of all the worst things. So let me just try to take myself into the...

best mindset that I could possibly do. And then I also try to get my I do whatever I can for my body, even if that just means eating something that's good or drinking something healthier, exercising, like I try to do at least one thing that's healthy for my body. And then I feel like it'll help my mind. But yeah, that's my advice is it could be worse. And I know it sounds a little insensitive. But that's just how I personally get myself through things. But what about you, Jess?

I think it's really important to feel your feelings, but I also know that in crisis, sometimes you just can't. And it's okay if you're in survival mode and you know that you're not processing and you're just in survival. But when you are out of survival mode, I think it's so important to let yourself break down or reach out or connect or be angry or whatever difficult feeling is coming up.

I really turn to a lot of spiritual tools. I definitely talk to the ancestors. I also think about times when I've been through much, much worse. Sometimes that makes it feel like for me that it's a never ending string of things. And other times it gives me a sense of resilience. I think what I've learned from different times of crisis is that it's easiest for me to just accept that however I'm dealing with it is how I'm dealing with it rather than trying to judge how I'm feeling.

Yeah, thanks. I mean, I think I just kind of had to start there because it's just so much on my mind where I am and just having to evacuate and come back and knowing so many people. It was just very disorienting waking up Tuesday morning to no power and having to

to figure out, okay, I guess I back a bag. I guess this is happening. Where am I going to go? And knowing that I have it great. Like I'm one of the lucky ones. I didn't lose my house and I know a lot of people that did, but even just all the businesses in my neighborhood closed. The city that I live in is just very somber right now. And it's,

There's this sort of collective heaviness and collective stress in the place that I am. Things were already so hard for so many people, even before this disaster. And I felt like financially, everyone I knew and myself were feeling more squeezed than before. It just, it feels a bit of being hit while we're down. And like you said, this one feels different in a way to anything

stress and sadness. I've felt to know that like I've been through worse and that you get a bigger, that's like one of the great things about aging is that you have a bigger sample size of challenging things that you've been through. So, you know, you can get through it. This one just feels interesting because I too take the similar perspective of not wanting to sit in my own discomfort with it, but knowing that the only way out is through, but also knowing that talking about it and staying in it isn't going to

help move forward necessarily, but also like you said, feeling your feelings. And so I think the only, the thing that's helping me feel better now is to be of service and be useful and, and trying to figure out how I can genuinely do that. But anyway, what I just noticed in myself, I think I'm halfway in survival mode, halfway in

you know, disassociating in a way. But I think it just felt like it was the new year. And I listened to your episode where you picked a card of the year. And I thought that would be another avenue we could go down with this. But it was just interesting in the time where I listened to that episode. And then we're talking now, like my perception of the new year shifted so much in the last even just five days.

where I am. And so I had to start there because it's been, it's been hard to focus on much else. Oh yeah. I mean, we really appreciate you being with us here now through all of this. And I totally relate to that sense of wanting to be useful. And I think it can be helpful for listeners to just hear authentically, like what it's been like for you. Sometimes

advice hits in a good way for some listeners and sometimes it doesn't. So, you know, whatever Paulina and I said, if it resonated, you can take it with you listeners. And if it didn't, that's okay. You can leave it. Yeah. I feel like this is going to be the first episode recorded and it's going to come out soon. We're recording this on, I don't even know what day it is. We're still kind of in the midst of it. And, um,

I had to be addressed of even my mood being different. So it feels good to be with you and to be talking about your work. And I appreciate you. I know it. Everyone's hearing about it in different ways. Thanks for letting me, you know, just kind of tell you what I'm coming in with. On your podcast, you picked a card for the year. I was hoping that you could talk about

the year ahead and what you're thinking so far. And if any of those predictions changed, I don't know if you remember what cards you picked in that episode, but if you could just start by talking about the energy of this year so far for both of you. Yeah. So we talked about the hermit being a reflection of 2025, just numerologically, you know, 2025, if you add it up and reduce it, it's number nine. And that corresponds to the hermit card and tarot. And, um,

It feels like a good year to really focus on...

your inner light and to work outside of the system and in alignment with your values. I think that's such a cool thing about the hermit where they live outside of society and sometimes our solutions are outside of the system we've created. And I think mutual aid is such a wonderful example of hermit energy. It's like it's not government sanctioned. It's people coming together of their own volition to do what is right and to live by their values and help each other and

rebuild the community. And we also drew the Ace of Cups just for listeners, you know, by shuffling the deck and at random, but with intention. It feels like a year of intense healing, but it's the new process of healing. Paulina, did you want to add anything about your feeling for the Ace of Cups for the year? Yeah, my feeling on the Ace of Cups is it's, the cup is overflowing. So I

There's going to be more love and support than you would even know or initially imagine. And that's what I've always felt it to be. So for our listeners, I think it's a combination of the hermit, like taking that time to be in your own space and kind of

To me, sometimes I also find the hermit to be struggling with a little bit of anxiety or depression, like letting yourself feel that, allowing yourself to take some time inside and then process some emotions. And whenever you're ready to like slowly come out, whether if you want to or not, take some time and come out. And then I think the world will be ready. You know, I think it's comforting to me even right now, because I think,

something that I've perceived in the last couple of days is this feeling like, how do you handle when you're feeling like a lack of optimism or just that when you're wanting to be useful or climb out of something, but

unable to, or like a stuckness, maybe you just gave the answer. Maybe it really is in the hermit card sitting in it. And that's maybe what you were saying when you were saying you have to feel it to be able to move through it. But when you work with clients and people that you help with in your work, is there ever anything, how do you toe the line, I guess, of

lacking optimism and feeling your feeling or to try to push yourself to move forward? How do you know that balance? For me, when I work with clients, so much of it is about holding space for whatever emotions come up for them, as well as talking with them about whatever's coming up in the cards or their palm or the tea leaves. And Paulina and I talked in our book, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, about how

We're very solution-oriented readers. And sometimes the solution is like, okay, you're in triage mode. Like you need to focus on just getting yourself through this. And, you know, please reach out to your supports, accept help, all these different things. But I think what's really important is that people need to feel loved, heard, cared for, like they matter. When people are coming to a reader or a fortune teller,

They might be looking for really deep spiritual help. They might just be there for fun. But when people do come to us with really heavy things, Paulina and I share a lot in the book. Both of us have been through pretty extensive trauma. The Romani people as a persecuted ethnic group, you know, we're an Indian diaspora, no longer with a homeland. We've been through centuries, 500 years of slavery, multiple genocides. You know, there's a lot of intergenerational trauma with Romani people.

And yeah, I think that we have a sense of like, we have seen difficult things. Our ancestors have seen difficult things.

We draw on resilience where we can, but sometimes resilience looks just like gritting your teeth and making it through the day. And that's okay. You don't have to be a pinnacle of mental health through your darkest time. And so I think ideally the reading room is a place where you're allowed to break down and cry. And we see what the cards say and see how that might relate to you because we're not really meant to give you hope. We're meant to help you circle it around and help you find, help find it with you.

through the cards or whatever we're using. I love that. I feel like as it's something one of my best friends and I talk about often is being solution oriented and preferring that sometimes knowing that some people in the moment, that's not what they want. They just want to vent, but I prefer that approach. And it sounds like that bedside manner that you have with the people that you work with. I read that you've been met with

forced deportation and 500 years of slavery. And that still continues today. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how both of you decided to carry on this tradition in your work, your lives?

I do want to backtrack just a little bit because as you were saying how you were going through this, you said that you were volunteering earlier and part of my healing process has been getting involved in helping others. And then you're asking, how do you even get out of bed sometimes? Or how do you find a place in optimism when you're not feeling it? And sometimes what I tell my clients, I definitely agree with Jess, first of all, in letting yourself feel, but I also feel like I give myself time to

I literally write it in my schedule. I'm going to be depressed this weekend and then I'll wake up and do something on Monday. And even if I'm still feeling depressed or something, I'll still do it. Not everybody has to do that, but that's just how I feel. And when it came to making this podcast, I didn't really know what it would look like, but I had just left my closed community, arranged marriage just for the listeners that don't know where we're coming from. And I

In that time, I felt like there would be other girls that have left the community, other moms that wanted to be a part of the lives of their kids, which is not really custom in my community. And I just wanted to find a way to talk about it. And this was in the midst of everything, in the midst of all this chaos.

drama and negativity and a constant battle and I just was in acceptance of that. I'm just in this battle and my life has to go on to some degree like maybe there's something I could do or share with the world and I actually saw an educational video of Jez talking about the community, the Roma community and I had reached out to Jez during a crazy time and this is where you can take it from here, Jez.

Yeah, the video was explaining that the word gypsy, which is the more commonly used to describe Romani people, is a racial slur. It's one of those words that really only Roma should be using and reclaiming. It's not for non-Romani people or gage to appropriate words.

Even if they try to mean it in a good way, because it's so rooted in stereotypes that have been used to persecute us and enslave us and kill us over the centuries. Even if you mean it like, oh, I'm a gypsy at heart. I'm so free spirited. We're trying to educate that. OK, well, the stereotype of us being wanderers actually came from persecution. And so it doesn't mean what you think it means.

You know, initially when Paulina reached out, it was with the idea of we have a message. We should educate people about who we are and what we do, but we weren't really sure what direction it would take. We decided to call the podcast Romanistan because that's the name for the imaginary land because Roma no longer have a country, even though we're originally from India, that's not where most Roma live anymore. Roma left India famously, hence the diaspora. And so, you know, Romanistan is anywhere where Roma are.

And we wanted that to be very inclusive. I'm queer and non-binary. Paulina left an arranged marriage in a traditional community. I'm mixed and assimilated. We have outsider energy even within the Romani community, which is an outsider community. And we wanted this to be a place where Roma from all walks of life could belong and feel connected and feel community. And then that became...

an endeavor to interview Roma who were doing amazing things that we wanted to celebrate and uplift, but also to talk about difficult things that we face like sexism within our own community and the continued practice of arranged teen marriages, which again, is not in every Romani community, but it shouldn't be in any Romani communities or any communities at all.

Our dream is to celebrate and connect and also be real about things that still need to change. I'm so glad that you found each other and then were able to bring more people to your work and

educate more people. I didn't know about this, I'm embarrassed to say, about the history until your work. So I'm really happy to be able to hear more about it. And I read that you both were talking about that really intense history. I really liked the way that each of you approach hatred and

how you assume that people are ignorant on the subject and try to not take it personally. And one of you, I don't remember which of you said this part, but I think it was something about, and I really loved this, of trying to listen and really hear them out and assess the situation before making any next steps or even feeling anything else. And I really loved that because it's something that I...

I try to do. I always try to, and it's hard. I try to assume best intent always, regardless of what is coming at me. And I just feel like that mirrors your perspective on this. So I'd love if you could share a little bit more about handling that feeling and how did you come to that perspective? And have you always been that way? Well, I would say...

It just really comes with wanting peace. My overall goal is wanting peace and...

experiencing so much like negativity it's sometimes around and it's sometimes just around so much to the point that I can't even blame people a lot of the times we deal with a lot of criticism always we deal with a lot of negative people up to this day I'm still in court like I'm still going through these battles and I feel like I've just come to this weird acceptance of it and I

I wish I had a better answer. I don't even know how I got to that perspective. I think it changes. I think in the midst of something like when something negative just happens and I just get the news or we just get this horrible email or people are calling us evil names and we're just like, okay, whatever. In that moment, like there's anger and there's

sadness and hatred, like just a lot of bad things. And then I take time to process it. And then I usually just say things to cope with it. But when we're dealing with negativity, it's usually because the person that's spewing out that energy or the corporation that's spewing out that energy or whatever, you

Wherever it's coming from, it's probably from a place that just doesn't have anything really good to offer. They're probably experiencing negativity and they have to live like that. And I sometimes even feel sorry for them. I guess I try to rationalize it to a degree.

Yeah, I think that we trade off a lot too. There will be certain situations where we get hate mail or harassment or something where one of us will be like, I am in a mindset to deal with this. Or we're like, this is our plan of action. But then there's always room for the other person to be like, I cannot deal with this. Thank you so much for stepping up. And I think it's interesting too, because sometimes negative attention can end up, you know,

It can bring you places you didn't expect. At the same time, that person brought a lot of attention and outrage on our behalf to our podcast when we were just starting off. And so while it was really, you know, frustrating and weird that this person was putting so much energy and trying to degrade me, and then, you know, Paulina by proxy, it...

ended up being like very helpful for our algorithm and so there's not always a silver lining but I was just like huh thanks weird dude you know yeah I have to laugh about it because it's horrible but it's also like at least we're getting something out of it yeah and when you're so used to just you know all kinds of of nonsense all the time it's not like it hurts less or anything but

You just sort of become more adept at handling it sometimes. Other times, you know, it breaks you and that's okay. You're allowed to like be overwhelmed. And then sometimes it ends up boosting your algorithm and you get like a flood of positive reviews because people are like, you know what, this is messed up. We should try to help them. And then you see how community shows up for you, which is so meaningful.

Yeah, completely. I mean, there's like two things that you said there that really hit me hard. But just like being able to level with somebody and just laugh about it, like even when something's dark and wild and just having that type of relationship, I often envy that.

I started this in 2013 and I'm honestly shocked that I'm still doing it, but mostly because when there's a co-founder or a sibling or a business partner, often when one person's down, the other person is up. And even if they're not up naturally, they'll bring themselves up because they'll know that like, all right, I've got to take this one because, and they're having that, that part I think is huge. But then also just like having someone to listen

level with and just laugh at like the hilarity of it all and how this is like you were saying Paulina too like this is it this is the human experience the friction and all and even just now I came from my friend's studio making these care packages and you know we had all had our heads down the mood was somber but every once in a while we were just like

We had a scammer, like this person just trying to get free stuff out of it. And like, all you can do is laugh and just be like, Jesus Christ, like this is insane, you know? And it's the best I've felt in a while. Like, you know, I think those laughs that you really, really need hit different than anything else, you know? Yeah. You have to laugh at absurdity.

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Things pile up quickly, especially when there's already stress, especially when you're alone. Sometimes you just need someone to listen. I do. I live alone. My work is primarily alone.

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If you're holding it in, it's holding you down. So perhaps you should let it out. I'm just spitballing there. I'm just at that with that last bit was just me. But okay, here's the thing. This ad could not be more perfect. I know I've said that every time I've done this ad, but...

It's actually comical. You know, I wrote this book about journaling called Let It Out. It came out several years ago for the same reason, because I feel like what we hold on to hurts us. And if we can let it out, we don't have to manage it. And we can sort through it and decide, you know, where we perhaps need support, where we need discipline, where we need support.

Action, you know? Anyway, what's better than doing that journaling is often not on your own, but processing with someone else. Processing with someone who is safe and cares. And sometimes that, you know, that can be a therapist, but sometimes you just need to like get it out. You know, you just need to say you don't actually need advice. Sometimes you do want advice.

And this provides a service that I've honestly been, I wanted to make this. Like I wanted to start this. I like had this idea. And then I get the email that they were going to sponsor the podcast. And I was like, oh man, like, first of all, I'm so grateful. That's incredible. And secondly, I truly like, this is hilarious. It's so funny. This has been in my brain for so long. And it's just an example of, I don't know if you've read that book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, but she says that like, if you don't,

execute an idea. It just goes to someone else and someone who will. And I feel like that's what happened here, which is so wonderful. And funnily enough, after doing the ad for several weeks, I've gotten two messages so far. Maybe I'll get more from you, from people who listen, if you're listening, hi, who have DM'd me and asked if I, if Vent is my company, if I made Vent and if

Unfortunately, it's not. I didn't. And I don't know who did even. But it's really cool. And I just love the concept so much. So anyway, that's just me going on and on about it after the ad. But I wanted to do it because it's truly how I feel. So thank you again to VENT. And I hope you all try it out. And I'm so grateful. All right, back to the episode. ♪

Comedy is a very valuable tool for coping with grief and trauma. Paulina and I love to make jokes about terrible things. Yeah. And what you were saying about and being co-host, like, honestly, I could not do this ever. Like,

I could never even imagine doing an episode without Jess. We always are running things off of each other. One person's doing something, another person's doing something. Jess, you definitely hold up this podcast a lot and you're such a great friend and everything like that. And I think it's community is what makes

things work. Like you're making care packages with people. Doing things alone is really hard, especially when you're trying to do something meaningful or powerful or going through something difficult. Like it's hard. Yeah. I don't know how I do this without you. You make it a joy. So good to have your partnership.

Well, congrats on the book. And you also wrote the book together. So, I mean, tell me a little bit about the book, but then I'd also love to hear about the process of writing it together. Oh, man. So many Zoom sessions because Paulina is West Coast and I'm East Coast, but...

Yeah, we wrote this book, because there was demand for it. We noticed that, you know, we both come from fortune telling families, not all Roma do, not all Roma tell fortunes or even like it, but both of us come from families where it was the ancestral job, and it was also a spiritual practice.

these survival trades grow up out of these centuries of persecution. Listeners might be familiar with Roma who maybe are associated with horse trading or performing, metalworking, basket weaving, all kinds of things. And Roma today work all kinds of jobs, whether they are traditional or not. But yeah, so both of us were born into fortune telling families, but with different expectations. And Paulina can share more about her story with that. But

We wanted to clear up confusion around what that meant. And a lot of people were curious and asking us about the work that we do and what it means. And we recorded an episode, I think it was the second episode of the podcast about fortune telling. There's a lot to say, like, here are all the things that we have to say about

But that wasn't enough. People kept asking us, is there a book that they could read about it? And there are wonderful books authored by Romani people on fortune telling. Lisa Boswell, Ilva Mara Rajevski, and Kiki Robinson both collaborated on an Oracle deck together, and Ilva wrote her own book. And April Wall, just for a few examples. But there hadn't really been a book about fortune.

Roma and our history of fortune telling specifically that was like the cultural and historical context as well as a how-to guide for different kinds of divination and so we wanted to do that and we wanted to weave in a little bit of our personal stories and we wanted to include the voices of other Romani fortune tellers because we don't speak for all Roma I grew up as I mentioned mixed and assimilated meaning only my maternal grandmother is Romani and Paulina grew up in a really

different type of environment. An incest family. It's horrible, it's true. Yeah, Paulina, do you want to share what your relationship has been like to the culture and the work? Yeah, I really was joking about that, but not at the same time. Like, you know, it wasn't arranged. You know, I had the arranged marriage, just like all of my ancestors before me. A lot of the times we're getting married to people that were related to, usually distant related, but not too distant people.

But there's this like othering of outsiders that we go through as a community. And this is because of the persecution that we experienced as a people and as a culture and racism.

Basically, now, you know, 2025, it's still happening. Like, we have really, we basically developed a strong, like, mistrust, like, with the government and just outside people in general. And so we stay in our community. And these survival trades, like fortune telling, are

something that like I grew up with, we're only allowed to do if we're working other jobs. There's like my community tells me, you know, like this is too much involvement with outsiders. Like you can't work outside of fortune telling and we do it together. So like if all the people are doing the same thing, you know, if we're entertaining or fortune telling or whatever it is that we're doing and

And we're all working together, like no outsiders could really like come in or get into the community. So that's where I resented fortune telling for a little while because I woke up and I felt like, oh, well, maybe all of this was like a lie or fake or this or that. And during that time, I left my community and worked a regular job and did other things. I actually love fortune telling and I love my spiritual practice, but I realized that I had to do it

differently kind of like with my own twist on it I would say I put a wellness twist on it to a degree I'm thankful for the survival part of it where it's like if you're fortune telling and your parents are telling you like we can't eat if you don't make money off the street today then there's a certain level of pressure but like now as I'm older and I have a family of my own I feel like

I fortune tell a lot better when I'm not feeling that immense pressure, but not everyone also even has that luxury. And so I feel like I just am able to bring a different kind of point of view and Jess's as well. Like when it comes to the fortune telling and we really put that into our book, we put that information that nobody's ever talked about before. Like it's not something. And when I say that, like, I really say that, like we've never come across that.

a like inherently Romani book with inherently Romani experiences written by Romani authors, you know, from community inside and outside the community. Like I think it really is one of its kind. And we talk about the deep rooted history, you know, I think, yeah, like that's kind of how it was for me. And we both grew up with it from a really young age. So yeah,

as different as we grew up, there's so many similarities. And writing the book was a cool process getting to know each other. It's also kind of traumatizing, like,

Jess and I haven't even read the book. Like, I mean, you know, we obviously wrote it, but it's hard for us to pick it up and read it. It's so like we get an instant, like, weird feeling in our gut. And I'm like, yeah, it's traumatic. We talked about so many things that we didn't realize we were carrying as traumatic, like

intergenerational trauma or, you know, experiences in childhood that even if we didn't write about them, we just sort of were writing about our childhoods being trained doing this work. And so, you know, this book doesn't really get into our personal trauma, but it was more that we're remembering our lives at the time when we're writing about these other things.

And I think certain sections were much harder to write, like explaining the World War II genocide, which obviously influenced my grandmother a lot because she grew up in Nazi Germany. And so these things that we always just sort of know are in our background, we had to actually sit and explain how maybe it's not that Roma are super magical or intuitive more than other people. It's just that we've lived through a lot in it.

And it was heavier than we thought. I'm sure it was probably intense to revisit some of that and discover some of that and reveal it to each other and then to other people. But the book's been out for a couple months now. How has it felt being on book tour and sharing it and people's reaction to it?

It's been really amazing that people we don't know in cities that we maybe haven't even been to showed up. And that was incredible. And we met...

you know, allies and other Roma. And it was just such a beautiful opportunity to see that people engaging with our work, because I think with the podcast, it's like, yeah, people comment on social media or something, but we don't like see people in their homes listening or driving around. But this was people coming to an event or ordering a book from us or supporting our book tour GoFundMe. And it was like, oh, wow, people are

listening and reading. And for me, it was profound. It was also terrifying, though, because it's like I felt so exposed and vulnerable. I've never had this level of visibility before. And it's not like we're famous or anything, but it's just like, oh, wow, we wrote a whole book and it's out there for everyone. And so we were both I mean, Paulina and I were calling each other being like, is it just me or is this terrifying? But it was also great.

Yeah, it's a mix. I think some of the best things are, right? Yeah. Like the cities that we've never been to, like I have never been to a few places on the East Coast. In Portland, we have a really great

turnout and people that listen to the podcast, people that read the book. It was so interesting. And now we have another tour planned for New Orleans and we're having some meetings and there's already a fan base out there, which is just crazy to even think that. But we really appreciate anybody that supports us like on a real deep. I don't even know how to express it. Words can't even express it. But it's just a lot of gratitude.

Yes, thank you for mentioning New Orleans. So we're doing our first festival, Welcome to Romanistan. And it's March 28th till March 30th. We're doing pop-up readings. It'll be so fun. I can't wait. Yes.

Cool. Congrats on the book and all the success of your podcast. I'm so glad the two of you found each other and are doing such impactful work. It sounds really special. And I want to know, you help people through several different ways, just in the different avenues of your work. You mentioned a couple of them, tea leaves, reading poems and tarot and art and your work.

many projects, including the ones you have together, your book and the podcast that you co-host. And so I'm sure this requires juggling and wearing many hats and prioritizing. Could you each talk a little bit about how you spend your days?

Yeah. So I primarily offer readings at a little shop in Deadwicks in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, but I also travel around to other locations and do in-person readings, but I have a bustling online reading business as well. I found out in the pandemic, you actually can read a poem online and do tea leave reading online. And I

I also am a writer. I write a tarot column for Bustle, a monthly look ahead at the month tarot poll.

And I am a poet and fiction writer as well and creative nonfiction writer. And I perform a lot with Poetry Brothel. I have a background in education. I think anyone who's been a teacher before knows that's very rarely your only job. And so I've always been doing this combination of fortune telling, teaching. I teach a lot of workshops online and in person. Making art, it's sort of always been the thing and sometimes in different proportions, but

It's the life I've always known. And yeah, Paulina, do you want to share? The way you phrased it at first, Katie, like juggling, that's I feel like what my daily life is like just juggling everything. For reals. So I also have an online business where I do life coaching and my readings and it's called RomaniHolistic.com.

I'm seeing clients where we're always doing something for the podcast or for writing. And I try to find some time to spend with my loved ones, trying to make time for that. I like to go to the beach a lot, like cold plunges. I try to get involved with activism work. I actually...

Hope to maybe get some more educational videos online soon. And we're just kind of planning that. I also wanted to ask you, Katie, if you need any help volunteering, let me know. I'm free on some weekends and I would love to come down there. Oh, that's so nice. I mean, I'm just...

asking friends and going into other things that other people are leading and helping where I can because like you, I wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things, a lot of juggling, but with that, I can be flexible. And yeah, that's so nice. I really appreciate you both taking the time and I'd love to end with some rapid fire questions, but I guess just before that, I was wondering if

With what you just said of Romani Holistic and the clients that you work with there, and then also Jez with what you were saying about the several different ways that you work with people and read for people. I'm just curious, are there any themes? One of my best friends here, second generation psychic, and we've had many conversations about this. And she often says that everybody wants to know about romance.

love and dating and romantic relationships. And of course, there's nuance to that. But I'm just wondering, do you find yourself often offering advice that might be something that we can offer everyone listening or any themes that you've been seeing recently that have stood out to you? I've been seeing a lot of people asking how they can get through the

political shifts that are occurring, whether their question is like, what is my role in all of this? Because I think as we're seeing escalating crises and other things, people are starting to get kind of nervous. So that's been coloring a lot of the readings that I've been giving. Sometimes people are asking more like, how do I personally get through the things that I'm afraid that are going to happen? But you know, love and money and work, those are all evergreen topics. And

You know, at jesminavontila.com, I have a little section where I also work a lot with artists and I do creative coaching too. And so a lot of my creative clients are also trying to figure out what is the role of their work right now during a difficult time. And my advice or the advice that comes up a lot for different people, of course, it's nuanced just for them, but I'm seeing a recurring theme of creativity.

Everyone has their gifts and this is the time to use them. And no one person can save the world or fix racism or apartheid or climate change or anything like that. But we all have our gifts and we're meant to use them and move through the obstacles, whether that's self-doubt or community connectivity to do the best we can with what we have. Yeah. How about you, Paulina? Yeah.

I got sidetracked a little bit because I was so into listening to you, Jess. I feel like I've actually been loving this new theme. A lot of my clients are like, oh yeah, me and my partner are also really into spirituality. I feel like there's been a stronger spiritual awakening. I don't say that lightly. I really do feel like people in general have been more in that mode of,

wanting to focus on their spirituality. And I find like people that are spiritual, like to my definition of spiritual is like, they're just trying to, you know, be better for themselves or for the universe or for others. They care about the world. They care about animals and the planet and in relationships as well, always trying to

I guess, do better or be better and maintain that energy of healing. And when you said that thing about everyone wants to hear about relationship, I feel like that is going to be always, I think people are always going to, a lot of it is,

love or family personal relationships. And I think that's going to be an ongoing theme. People continue to just care a lot about their selves and others. Once you're in that place of heightened self-awareness and spirituality, then it's like, okay, now I'm ready for

relationship or whatever, not even ready, but you know what I mean? You're focused. You don't have to be ready to be in a relationship. You can start at any time. I like that theme and I like that people have been gravitating more towards spiritual awareness. Okay. Let's do a couple rapid fire. So you can each kind of just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Has there been a piece of advice that has helped either of you recently or advice that someone else gave you that you always return to?

My maternal grandmother, who I write about a lot in the book and who trained me, gave me so much good advice. Something that she used to say all the time was that, you know, we're weeds, we're resilient. They try to kill us, but they can't. But my favorite thing is after my divorce, she hugged me really close and she whispered in my ear, get it while you're young. And I think about it all the time. So good. It means so many things to me. Yeah. Yeah.

The recent advice, I like the way you worded that. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

And that's what I'm doing. And I think about that all day. And I'm like, prepare for the worst, prepare for the worst. Like get the insurance I didn't think I would need or, you know, get every single document together that I didn't think I would have to get. Or am I going too far? Is my power also going to go out randomly? But that's been kind of my go-to mantra slash advice, like getting me through the day better.

Classic. Yeah. For each of you, what is your greatest lesson on romantic love? It's supposed to be fun. I think like, of course, relationships are work too, but like most of the time it's supposed to be fun. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. For romantic relationships, I think listening has really helped me and my clients just taking the time out to really hear and listen more.

to really try to understand the other person as much as possible. That's it. Just taking that time out to really listen, hear, understand, and take it in. You don't always have to respond right away or fix everything right in that second, but sometimes just listening, whether it's good things are going on or challenges are happening, it's always a go-to.

What about unnavigating change or having to pivot or when something doesn't go the way you wanted? How do you each guide people through that and yourselves? I think about surrender and adaptability. Every closed door is an opening elsewhere, you know? And so I try to just always be in problem-solving mode and try to see change as something that is invigorating. And that's easier when the change isn't traumatic, if it's just regular everyday change, but...

Yeah, surrender and be adaptable.

I try to get myself out of my own head. I feel like I can usually be my own worst enemy or I can be my biggest ally. And I just try to get myself out of the mindset that's slowing me down because I realize that I can hold myself back a lot or I can even do things that are more damaging or say things that are more damaging. So I always just try to literally take a step back

physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, look at things from the outside. And also, sometimes I like consult with other people or consult with chat, like, whatever is that my, whatever is that at my disposal, I try to use the resources that I have, whether they're my own advice, things that I know, or from other people or other resources.

What about related to creativity? Jess, you mentioned you do creative consulting as well. What do you advise people and again, yourselves when you're feeling burnt out or uninspired? I think that's a really wonderful time to enjoy other people's creativity. Yeah.

And that can be anything from binging your favorite Netflix show to going to a literary performance or exhibition. That's a time to allow yourself to rest because if you're forcing yourself when you're feeling burnt out, it just takes longer for you to recover. And that's when you're meant to enjoy art and play and try to have fun and be around people you love and pet animals. I really like that. I like that.

advice. Usually I sit in my boredom and I just like stare at the wall. I really make it even more intense. I find if I get super in my head, I let myself think the worst thoughts, like the best thoughts, you know, zero to 100 real quick. And then sometimes it just kind of comes out and sometimes it doesn't. And I just give up and I'm like, okay, I'll just sleep or I'll just write a poem. I just kind of

let myself feel a whole bunch and then something has to come out of it. Eventually, that's kind of what I do. I love that. All right. Well, the last thing I just want to ask you, so the name of this podcast, the name of the show is Let It Out. So when I offer that term to you, is there anything else that you wish that I would have asked you that you never get to talk about anything you want to share, recommend just to leave people with?

Yeah, you know, I think something that people struggle with when they learn that, for instance, tarot, palmistry, tea leaf reading, all of these things have been shaped so much by Romani culture because they are survival trades, especially tarot. You know, Roma were probably the first people to use tarot as a divination tool because it was a card game originally.

They're like, oh my God, what should I do? What am I supposed to do about this? Because they don't want to be culturally appropriative. They want to be respectful, which I love that impulse. And so my advice is if you are profiting off of divinatory tools that are another culture survival trade, make room in your platforms and in your business for those people.

And so, for instance, you could take classes from a Romani reader. You could like, you know, you're inviting us onto your podcast, which is amazing, like making space on your platform. You can uplift Romani creators with social media and on Romanasanpodcast.com.

We have a list of Romani resources, and some of those are charities like Dike Nabister and eRomnia that are amazing organizations that you could donate to if you have the funds. You can educate yourself about Romani issues, like the ongoing human rights crisis. The ERRC is a really amazing resource for that. And so you can just become an ally and use your relative privilege uplift.

And I think that's so meaningful and you can educate other people and share the resources.

Thank you. Thank you just for sharing that. It's important information. I feel like my mind is just going to the fires in L.A. My heart is with everybody right now. It's going to be really tough to get through this and all this rebuilding. And it's really sad to see all these places and all these homes, everybody's homes, everybody's buildings. I was born in L.A. It's definitely my hometown. I love L.A. and I feel so blessed.

hurt for everybody and I really hope that the community continues to come together it's such a great amazing community amazing place and the birthplace of so many beautiful things and terrifying things and

I hope everything turns out okay. We can slowly start this rebuilding process and I'll try to be there when I can. Yeah, I feel similarly. It's really wild. And I've been speaking about it so much with people. Challenging for me to be here without...

thinking about it all the time because it's just so present on everybody's mind because as you said every single person that i know is either directly affected because one of my best friends just lost their job because of it or their business or something they know lost their house or where they're renting it trickles to everything and then not to mention the landscape of just the charm and history of these homes and buildings on every side of town and

And I mean, it just, it's like, it really, it's wild because the, obviously the loss of life is terrible and that count is relatively low compared to some other disasters, but it's just, yeah, it's really hitting me hard. So yeah.

um, I'm right, I'm right there with you. Um, but it was a really nice break from it all to, to talk to both of you and I appreciate it so much. I mean, I, I know it's been a bunch of times, but I don't know if either of you have a tarot card close and want to like choose one for it to end on maybe a lot. I mean, who knows what the deck would say, but, um, you know, such a somber note, if we want to leave people with a

pick a card for everyone listening. It's no biggie. I've got a deck. Paulina, do you have one near you? I do. Wonderful. Yeah, we're so prepared. I can. Yeah. So I'm shuffling now and I'll whatever you guys want to do, however you want it. Yeah, we can each draw a card. I think it'll be. That's a great idea.

Ooh, okay. So we have the Knight of Swords as a closing message. This is a time of change, and it's also a really good time to remember that there's really nothing you can't learn. This is a time of intellectual activity.

And you are on a mission. It's a time of clarity, of moving forward, cutting away what doesn't serve you anymore and moving forward with a sense of victory ahead of you. Even if it's difficult to imagine the outcome, this is the trust you have to have in yourself as a problem solver, as someone who can draw from all of your experience, who can ask the right questions, who can be connected with the right opportunities.

And so charge ahead. I get the page of pentacles. It's about being smart with your money, being smart with your time and being creative with your time and being creative with your money. So yeah, thank you so much for having us. We end by letting out a deep breath. So inhale, let it out. Oh my gosh. This was so wonderful to connect with you and we're both sending you so much love.

Okay, thank you so much for listening. I am so grateful to Jasmina and Paulina. Links to work with both of them and listen to their podcast and buy their book will all be in the show notes, and I hope you do. And as I mentioned, they both...

gifted me a session which is so kind and my session with Jasmina that I just did that I'm fresh out of was so impactful and I can't recommend her enough and I'm speaking to Paulina in just a couple days so I'll let you know next week what comes up there and I'm excited I'm excited to see both of their styles and how they differ and how if there's overlap maybe they'll both tell me the same thing it's going to be really cool so I'll let you know about that next week and in the meantime I'll

you know, follow them everywhere. Get yourself a hard copy of that book, subscribe to the podcast, book a session. And thank you to Carla, our mutual friend who connected us. And thank you to you for listening. I'm so grateful. If you want to keep in touch with me, you know how to do so. It's all in the show notes and I'll get back to posting and I'll get back to writing sub stacks and

I have a lot of notes and I've been having a lot of ideas come up. But I've really been... I've been trying to help and be useful here as much as I can be. And that's felt good. So I have not been on my computer at all. But I hope to be more coming up. I actually...

I'll be away next... I'm just telling you my schedule at this point. But friend of the show, Linnea Sims, one of my dear friends, is getting married in Palm Springs. So next week, maybe I'll give you a dispatch from there or...

for letting you know what breathing some air that's not as toxic as the air where I am now has done to my brain. Hopefully good things. We can only hope. We can only hope. Okay, thank you so much for listening. This podcast is edited by Jeremiah, and I'll talk to you next week. Bye-bye.