Revisiting Politics on a Local Level with Erin Gibson
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Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jamila Jamil, a podcast against shame. You might be able to hear in my voice that I am very unwell. I've had the flu for about five days now and also a kidney stone and neither are really getting better. And I only just discovered why and that's because I've been taking painkillers all week.

and you take them every four hours, and I take the maximum dose because I'm very tall, and I just haven't slept in about four or five days, and I didn't know why. And then it was only last night that I realised, oh shit, when a painkiller says extra on it, that doesn't always mean extra painkiller. Sometimes that means caffeine.

So I've been having basically eight coffees a day without realising it and then not understanding why I'm lying awake in agony and misery all night. And when you don't sleep, you don't heal. You don't just not get better, you get worse. And so that's what my life has been like for the past week, which is great because the election in the United States was simply not stressful or horrific enough.

So now I'm really feeling the full force of the punishment of it all and how horrific the world is. Anyway, today is a terrifying day. Today has terrifying consequences, regardless of which way it goes, but especially in one direction. And I think I'm torn as to whether or not I am that outcast.

out of touch twat celebrity who dares to tell anyone what to do with their vote but also I don't know if I can live with myself if I don't keep making the effort to try to steer us towards the vaguely better outcome which is simply being able to have the option to vote ever again.

Because if Donald Trump wins, he said that's going to be it for elections and everyone just has to vote him in one last time and then that will be it. And I don't think he has a plan to allow more fair elections to happen. I think that will be it. And the Democrats, I understand every reason that people have for wanting to abstain or wanting to vote for a third party candidate. I completely, completely hear you.

But the third party candidate has simply come along too late in the game to win any actual groundswell support that could be meaningful, that could create meaningful change. So voting for them is kind of like just voting for Trump or not voting at all. It really doesn't put us in a better situation globally, especially given that he is...

as dangerous even more so perhaps for the people in the Middle East a lot of people don't want to vote for Kamala because of

because of that vital issue. There is something in the Democrats that shows that they do somewhat listen to us eventually and they do care what we think at all and they will allow for future elections. They aren't an autocracy. I have tremendous issues with that political party, but I do know that they are the best shot that we have

for the entire world when it comes to the decision that we make this week. And so it is with a heavy heart that I say, please go and use your vote and be very, very mindful about how much support you think a third party candidate actually realistically has given how late in the game they have come up.

and ask yourself what a Trump presidency looks like and if you're okay with being part of what is potentially a forever, mauger presidency. Because even if he's old and he dies, he might make it so that no Democrats can get in ever again. And I know that sounds extreme, but thus far, since 2016, many of the things that man said he would do and would create, he has gone and done.

in the scariest possible way. So just keep that in mind. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't want to say any of this, but I also don't know how to not say it. Anyway, today's episode is a replay of an old episode from not that long ago, in which I talked to comedian, podcast queen and author Erin Gibson about a lot of what we are dealing with this week. We're talking about the abortion crisis, talking about the media's fear mongering, which I've just done. We're talking about what

conspirituality is, which is fascinating. And I will let her explain it to you. I'm not going to butcher it right now. And we talk about her journey of finding peace from her depression, the importance of local politics and how to really feel like you are able to make a political difference.

And so I thought it could be helpful, it could be interesting, and it's definitely a galvanising and empowering and reassuring episode. I really, really like her, I really enjoyed this conversation, and I think you will too, and maybe it will make you feel less alone, or maybe you can send it to someone who you think can go out and vote and make a difference at all the different levels of government. But either way, just know that I'm with you.

I support you ultimately in whatever decision you choose to make. And that I think part of the reason I feel so much like I have a responsibility to say any of this at all is because I'm English. And it means that I have been able to pack my bags and run to London in case shit goes sideways this week. And...

There are millions and millions and millions of women and girls who live in states that have the most restrictive bans that can't leave or they're in a situation they can't get out of. And they don't have that same luxury as me to just get up and fuck off like a lot of, you know, the very privileged people online who are encouraging political callousness.

And so I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. It's what feels right, which is just to beg you to do whatever you have to do voting-wise to ensure that we still have any kind of political agency going forward as a country, as a people, as a society. So anyway, I'm going to fuck off now. This is the fantastic Erin Gibson. I love you very much.

Erin Bloody Gibson, welcome to I Weigh. Thank you for finally getting, someone finally got my middle name right. I appreciate it.

How are you? You know, I'm doing excellent considering the circumstances. Fine, I'll take that. And the circumstances are really dog shit, so that's a big deal, actually. For sure. Dog shit is the only way I could describe it. A hundred percent. Actually, dog shit might not even be as bad. At least that's a neat little turd most of the time. We are in a ginormous shit show. It feels like... Do you remember that massive shit in...

Sorry, everyone. But in Jurassic Park. Absolutely. That Laura Dern just gets involved in. I feel like that is the state of the world, especially for women and people with uteruses. And we've not come out of it. We're still in it. We're trying to find our way out. Knee deep. Knee deep. Maybe tits deep. I'm tits deep.

Oh, my goodness. Talk to me about how you're feeling about all this abortion shit. Well, I have to be honest with you. Because I have... I am very niche involved in, like, granular laws in the U.S. and have been for the last 12 years. Love that. I saw it coming. I knew it was going to happen. And I knew Kavanaugh was a fucking liar. As for Amy Phoney Barrett, for goodness sake. Amy...

We have gone through several iterations of what we call her on my show. We started with Amy Clowney Butthole. But I think now we're going to stick with Amy Cummy Blanket. And we call Kavanaugh Kavanaugh. Oh, my God. But these, we call them Beer Kavanaugh. There is a direct correlation with people becoming marginalized people and people who have been

historically excluded, feeling more seen and heard. And then the clamp down of actually no. Oh, the birth rate's down? Guess what? We're going to overturn Roe versus Wade. Just the idea that like,

We're making some monumental steps forward, and this is them kicking us back down the stairs. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Gloria Steinem came onto this podcast and said that every single moment of progress is always, always followed by a supreme backlash, and that the cornerstone and sort of first step of every single historical authoritarian regime was to control people's uteruses.

to control reproductive rights. And that is a terrifying pattern. And then looking back into Hitler and all these different dictators. The fascists, yeah. Yeah, fascists and authoritarians. Mussolini did it. Exactly, exactly. It's always there. And it's just, there are so many levels to it that are, I mean, just awkwardly apparent. Like,

The amount of complaint there has been about immigrants, refugees coming into this country being like, we don't have enough resources. We are, you know, we have too many homeless people, we have too many people starving. And then they're forcing more homegrown bodies.

This is ridiculous. So which one is it? It's the same. They just flipped the record. It's the same song. They're just flipping the record. Like, you know, I'm Irish American. My great grandmother came here from Ireland. And, you know, she couldn't get a job because that was, it was like just people focusing their hate on different groups to just, I don't know, some stupid outlet for their inherited trauma that they refuse to stop. Right.

some kind of like hateful shit that's running through their veins. And now, and then they just pick a new group. That's what they do. There's no, they don't actually care about anybody. I don't even think they care about themselves. Well, that's that famous quote that's been going around about the fact that the unborn are a very convenient group to advocate for because they don't require any resources. Yeah. So they'll never take. And so therefore you can advocate for them as this sort of like

I don't know, ethereal being. Because the second that baby's out of the fucking womb, they're on their own. They don't care. The parent's on their own. We have the highest maternal mortality rate of any, of a country this wealthy. We have the highest. And that's because people don't have access to healthcare. Yeah. And because we have a, we have a real disrespect for people who are going through birth. It's also like, it's $50,000 to have a baby, to give birth if you don't have insurance. Let

Let me tell you something. I mean, that's, a baby is coming out regardless. There's no stopping it. No. I remember I was like in between, I was like transitioning from being an actor to a writer. And I was about to, I was, I had, my SAG insurance had just lapsed and I was about to get covered for, from WGA, but I had like a six month window where I wasn't covered. And I fell asleep in a pair of jogging pants.

And they were really tight. And my nightmare was that I was pregnant and that I didn't want to have the baby because I didn't want to go into medical debt. Wow. A fucking nightmare. So talk to me about your, because I know you have a really, really firm understanding of the system, because I think a lot of us are feeling incredibly helpless and confused. And I, especially as a non-American, I'm

Absolutely blown away. And by the way, you know, we're seeing this in Brazil, we're seeing this in Poland, we're seeing this in all these countries that we didn't expect. How everyone's returning to religious kind of extremism, at least as an excuse. What is that? Why is this like comeback?

It's like Jesus is having a reconnaissance. Like, what is happening? It's the perception. Well, there's this replacement theory shit that's going around that's like white people being like... Yeah, will you talk about that? You know, we see Tucker Carlson kind of alluding to it constantly. Will you explain that to people? Pretend that I'm next for even without the bow tie. It's basically that white people are being replaced by other people. So it's really white cisgendered.

men are being replaced. Those are the people who are like butt hurt and threatened that other people have, I don't know, a house, a place to live, jobs. They take it as a personal assault that other people exist and that there's finite room for everybody, which I guess in theory there is, but not to bring it back to when I was a commercial actress, but I remember when I first started...

First came to Hollywood and I was doing like commercial acting for those of you who don't know is like print modeling for normal people who can deliver a joke, I guess. But it was so I walked into a room and there was like 85 people who looked like me. I didn't feel special anymore. And I had a real identity crisis. And I remember my my ex at the time was like, there is enough to go around.

If you don't get this job, it's not the person who's next to you in that room. It's not their fault. It's some crazy shit outside of your control. And there's no one to blame in this scenario. You know, the system's just kind of fucked. And I always think about that when I think about these people who are like, no, you're the reason that my life sucks.

It's not the case. It's just, it's easier. It's so much easier to point at somebody or point a group of people and say, you're the reason my life is shitty rather than being like this massive, invisible governmental organization is the reason that my life sucks. The fact that we don't have any industry here is the reason my life sucks. Like that's difficult. I do also make some space for the fact that the media is,

Especially this like bipartisan media where we're both being shown completely different statistics, studies, stories with completely different. I follow All Sides Now and Ground News, which are centrist publications, because the left are also guilty of hyperbole or dishonesty or racism, ableism, fatphobia, transphobia, so much transphobia on the left.

So I follow a lot of centrist publications who do a really good job in showing both left and right headlines right alongside each other of the same incident to show the ways in which things are being twisted to ignite outrage in both sides.

in both different groups, right? And so... For what? These people... Yeah, exactly. For division, because outrage and division sells papers in the way that sex used to. We're kind of hyperinflated on the value of sex because everyone got their buttholes out. And so now, and that's great, but now division and outrage is the new sex. So I do have empathy for all these people who are genuinely afraid about abortion, afraid about the birth rate going down, afraid about being replaced, only because...

all that is happening to them is that they are being terrorized and fear-mongered. And unless you are already following people, and unless your algorithm is already showing you things that are from the other side, if all you are seeing is a barrage of what you can't even distinguish as xenophobic anymore, because it's what everything you're seeing looks like, then I can understand the fear. The media has so much blood on its hands.

That it's terrifying. Again, I'm not trying to be an apologist, but I do also think it's really important to identify the cause and not just the symptom. For sure. And also, like, people don't have the skills to do the thing that you've done, which is...

seek out other things. Like we don't, we have a very large decline in civics classes in, at the high school level in the U.S. What's that? What's a civics class? How does the government work? Oh, shit. How, how, how to, how to read, how to have critical thinking. Like we have, we don't have any, any classes that teach critical thinking skills and we don't have classes that teach civics. So people don't know how the government works and they also don't

They don't understand how to question things in a way that doesn't make media the ultimate authority. It's like, okay, for example, my mom doesn't know she doesn't have to pick up her cell phone. Like, she's from a generation of people who when the phone rings, you pick it up, okay? Yeah.

So oftentimes what will happen is like, I'll call her and she'll get mad at me because she's like, I'm at the doctor and I'm like, don't answer the phone. But she's so trained in the way that the phone needs to be answered. And I feel like there's a lot of people here who, especially in the U.S., who are like, Facebook is the news. Twitter is the news. And the news is right. NBC, Nightly News, CNN. Fox. MSNBC. It's all right. And no, like...

You know, sometimes I watch Rachel Maddow and I'm like, I don't know if I agree with you, you know, and that's because I have a healthy sense of questioning everything. It's exhausting. Right. But we're also in a society that if you dare to attempt critical thinking, you're accused of doubting whichever side, quote unquote, that you've picked. And then you're a bad person, you're complicit, and you may as well just be a fucking xenophobic person.

You know what I mean? A white supremacist. So that's also something. Or you're uppity. Yeah. I don't know if you know that term. I think anyone who is socialized as female has been called uppity at some point in their life. I was talking about this with a friend the other day, like,

What do people get out of reading things that are incendiary like that? Does it activate something in you? And if it does, you need to think about why. Well, wait, incendiary like what? Also, what does incendiary mean? Well, like shit-talking articles or demeaning shit or like...

Okay, well, I can speak for those people, right? Because I'm a trash bag. I think when you feel... You read the mirror is what you're saying? I've definitely done it. Like, I've definitely done it. I've been also like a slut-shaming public figure trash bag twat.

So I think what it is, is A, for me at least, it was misplaced rage, right? For sure. I was assaulted when I was younger. I didn't have an outlet. I picked the easiest target. That was other women because I was young and ignorant and lazy. I didn't even know the term patriarchy, didn't really know what misogyny was. I was just full of hate and I just...

I spewed it out at probably the place where I was least likely to be hit back, which was other women. And now I still criticize sometimes other women, but also men. But I always do it. Always. I triple check myself beforehand to make sure that I'm doing something that is just correct, fair and for women rather than against that one woman.

To just be a dick. You know what I mean? Yes. Although some women do deserve it. No, no, that's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, exactly. Well, because some people go the other way where they're like, we can never criticize women because... Well, that goes back to a lack of critical thinking. Right. Doesn't it? Just like a full black and white, like, no, it should be like this or this. That's it.

But for other people, I think, you know, when you're having, I don't know, low self-esteem, right? And you're feeling like shit about yourself. A literal tactic and design. We even had a tabloid journalist, a former, a reformed, recovered tabloid journalist on this podcast, Dean Piper. And in that we were talking about the fact that they are deliberately catering to making you feel bad about, like better about your life. It's like, well, your life isn't as bad as X person's.

or you don't look as bad as X, or look at this ugly picture of X's thighs, don't you feel so much better about yourself? Also, by the way, just in case anyone was wondering or looking at their phone, that was my phone alarm. That was my boyfriend's phone alarm that went off because he was having a little nap in the room. And so don't worry, you haven't missed an alarm. I just want to make sure that no one heard that sound and then started panicking. They're parking meters up. Yeah, exactly.

No, I agree. So I do think that, you know, like the more we are stepped on by society, the more the cost of living becomes impossible, the more that we are pushed down, the more we... I think it's an unfortunate human trait to like want to gossip about someone else or feel holier than someone.

It's like, yeah, okay, I'm a fuck up. Yeah, I'm ignorant. But at least I haven't made the mistake that they have made publicly. I'm going to pile on them and exert my superiority in this brief moment in which I can actually feel superior. I don't mean that in a patronizing way. I say that as one of the trash people. I mean, look, everybody... I've had a similar trajectory where I was raised in the South and I was raised to be a straight up ding-a-ling and I was not taught to...

There's this term in the South called your MS degree, which is basically you go to college to get married and that's it. Oh, right. So that's what I grew up with. I grew up thinking like, I don't deserve autonomy. I don't deserve to have a career. And I remember when I moved to Chicago to start doing Second City there, I started just like reading so many books about this because I was like, why do I feel better? Yeah.

Now that I'm not in the South anymore, why do I feel better? And that kind of helped me to like realize all the things that I had been taught and had been ingrained in me about being less than and not having control over what was happening or being said to me or whatever. And I don't know. I feel very lucky now.

that I have come from being someone who was like, I'm a guy's girl. I only hang out with the guys. You know, that shit. Just thinking about whether I'm fuckable or whatever. And then going from that to being like, I cannot tell you how lucky I am. And all, this isn't just a gendered thing, but like my friends are so different and different.

from all kinds of places and all kinds of identities. And my life is so much richer now because I don't have that like binary way of thinking, but I only gained that from removing myself from that situation. And I don't think a lot of people have that luxury. It's a luxury to be able to go and like explore yourself and like figure out who you are outside of these systems that you've been raised in because sometimes those systems, even though they're fucked up,

It feels safe. What's your advice for people who might be listening to this, who are starting to see more on social media and look around and listen to podcasts like this and watch things like Broad City, who are just like...

fuck, maybe there's more for me. What is your advice? You can't be scared. Like the fear is what keeps people from doing that. Well, you can be scared. Maybe you don't have to be navigating your life according to your fear. Maybe. Yeah. No, that's very good advice. Like you will be scared. I was, I moved to Chicago with $300. I had no money. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I found a roommate on Craigslist. Like,

That's something that I just decided to be okay with, you know, even though I was petrified. But I do say everything that I have done that has really scared me has always paid off in spades because I leveled up in ways that I never even imagined. I just thought I would be moving to this thing or trying this job or whatever. But it's just made me a calmer, nicer, more compassionate, and also more critical person of things around me. I mean...

I have a friend who called me and he was like, you know, I went to high school with this person. I loved her so much. She was so incredible and compassionate. But now she's a hardcore Republican and she's into conspirituality and I don't know what to do about it. And my first question was... What did you just call it? Conspirituality? Conspirituality, which is like... What is that? It's yoga people... It's yoga plus QAnon, basically. It's like... What?!

Oh, yeah. It's huge in L.A. It's actually huge in New Mexico, too. Wait, so you didn't make this up? This is a thing? No, that's a—I heard another—a person more brilliant than me told me, and I was like, that's a great term. Okay, wait, so break it down for me. Okay. It's conspiracy theories plus spirituality. And it often happens with people who are into what you would think of as, like,

natural healing modalities. Maybe they're a little skeptical of Western medicine. Maybe they think that if they have like a bad kidney that yoga can heal that. That's how it kind of starts. And then COVID made it worse. And then QAnon got in the mix. So then QAnon, so, you know, I have yoga. I know...

friends of friends who are in the yoga community who are straight up QAnon believers. And if you look at the circle of those things, spirituality, because people are trying to like organize and put modalities on this abstract thing, kind of feels like QAnon in a way. And sometimes they kiss. Listen, I believe in weird shit. I like...

I live in New Mexico now and I'm fully into the alien scene. Oh, really? Oh, I love it. I love it. But it feels like magic to me. You know, it doesn't feel like an escape. I'm just like, we live in a magical place. This could totally be possible. I've gotten into feng shui. That's my confession. That's my confession to everyone. I'm really into feng shui now. But isn't it

It's fun. It's fun to think about the world at a different point. Yeah, I got into it over the pandemic and it's just been really fascinating and I love it. And it's just, it's just blown my mind. And then I've learned more about it. And I found out that in Vegas, all of the, like it's Feng Shui consultants who have positioned all of the buildings in certain directions that everyone loses all their money.

And that they get everyone's money. I guarantee if you start getting deep into feng shui and like you get into like the subreddits, there will be conspirituality in there. I feel like there's got to be a crossover there. Oh, of course. Of course. I mean, it's just, it's so easy. It's so easy to get sucked in. Had Tyler Henry on this podcast, didn't really believe in ghosts. And after that, I was like, fuck, I

I'm too scared to masturbate now because he said that they're watching, you know. Well, if you raise Catholic, you're already too scared to masturbate because Jesus is watching. So I'd rather have it be like a, I don't know, 18th century Victorian child. I'd rather that than Jesus Christ, okay? Yeah.

Or somebody who's judging me, you know? That's the worst part. Oh, yeah, of course. There's judgment affiliated with it. Of course. I mean, there's judgment affiliated with everything to do with being a woman. Speaking of which, this is a podcast predominantly about mental health. How has your mental health been your whole life? Oh, depressive. Like, I didn't have the words for it when I was a teenager, so I just listened to the music that...

could do that for me, you know? Alanis. Oh, Alanis. A lot of rage songs mixed with shoegazer music.

I mean, we're talking, you know, Susie Sue. And we're talking, like, Kate Bush. We're talking all the cure. All the cure that anyone can handle. I had it. And I think when I got into, when I moved away from Texas, there's also a really weird thing in my family. My family's Irish Catholic. You do not talk about how you feel. And you...

You do not tell someone, I really think you need some help with this. That's like an insult. Oh, you're English. I didn't know you were English. I couldn't. Well. I mean, it's the Irish. It's nearby. It's strong in my family, which is like dark, dark sense of humor. Yeah.

Don't do real emotions. Got it. We can talk about the fucked up things that happen in the family, but you can laugh about them. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Lots of alcoholism. So is it like... Yeah, sure. So would you say it's actually like clinical depression or is it because being a woman is shit? Yes. I've started to like...

try to unpack the things that I'm pathologized with. And I'm pro-pathology and I'm pro-medication, I'm pro-treatment, I'm pro all of those things. All of them have saved my life. But I am starting to, as I'm getting older, just try to make sure that I stay on course with recognizing what is like a pathological issue and what is actually just me not honoring or being honored.

in my need for comfort. Right. And so a lot of it has been like working out, oh, I'm not actually an anxious person. I'm made anxious by the positions I put myself into or other people put me into. And I don't think I am a depressive person as much as the world is very sad, especially if you are socialized as a woman.

And so it might be a bit of both. But whenever I feel free of it, I feel absolutely elated and like fairly stable and normal. And so I'll still take the meds because I fucking need them because I can't get off this earth. I mean that in a positive way, sort of. But I just wonder, is it because of life or is it like a clinical thing? Well, I have to say it's probably life because I was...

It's hard for me to... I don't know how to parse it out, and here's why. I've been on Prozac once, and I was put on it immediately by a doctor in Houston who talked to me for 10 minutes. Had you gone to him for like a broken toe, and he gave you Prozac? Oh, full life. Well, I'll tell you, I was...

I wasn't attracted to my boyfriend anymore. And I thought there was something wrong with me. Now, hot tip, we should have broke up. But I was like, no, this person's a great person. I should be attracted to them, but I'm not. So I went to this therapist. This is in college. And also the idea that I was like, I'm a college person. I should want to fuck all the time. And I didn't.

And so I thought there was something chemically wrong with me. So this doctor put me on Prozac, a very high dosage. And I remember I used to make sandwiches for this guy who lived off of campus who was unhoused. I made sandwiches for him every week. And I stopped when I was on Prozac. It took away the way that I felt. It took away my compassion. I'm not anti-meds.

At all. I'm not anti-meds. I had a bad experience with them once and it didn't really help my depression. It just sent me into like a zombie mode. Well, really fucked over the guy who needed the sandwiches, really. I was like, oh, he'll be okay. He got the worst deal. Yeah. Yeah. My brother and I once did that.

for an unhoused man for several years and then it was cheese sandwiches he wanted he would come and clang our gate and then we would run down and give him cheese sandwiches my brother especially because he's a bit older than me so I wasn't allowed to go downstairs uh late at night if it was too late and um one day he came to us and he was like my shelter is being moved somewhere else and so can you help me move all of my stuff and we were like

Sure. And we went to his little shelter to get all of his belongings. There's this one really fucking heavy bag. And we were like, fuck, what is in this heavy bag? So we looked inside and there was two years of cheese sandwiches. And we were like, what the fuck? What the fuck is this? And he was like, well, I'm just more of a pate man, really, which is...

Absolutely amazing. But he saved them. But he saved them because he still, like, A, it was so sad and sweet that he didn't just say, actually, I'd like chopped liver sandwiches, which we totally would have done, even though they were more expensive. He didn't want to be greedy, but he was just doing it for the fucking company. Anyway, it's just such a, like, funny, sweet, sad moment. He got pate sandwiches for years after that. Don't worry. We switched it up. Yeah. Yeah.

But I had a therapist in L.A. who was wonderful. Yeah. She was, I had her for 10 years and she really helped me. I mean, I used to, when I first moved to L.A., I used to cry in traffic. Doesn't everyone cry in traffic? I feel like when I look around, everyone's either picking their nose crying or trying to eat a full bowl of very milky cereal, which just feels like a game show. Why do we do it?

It's crazy. People are ridiculous in Los Angeles. Sorry, go on. Oh, yeah. Well, because you live in your car. Because you're in the car all day long. Yeah, yeah. I just, it was more like I would like back out of a park. I remember I was backing out of a parking spot at my mailbox store and someone honked at me and I just burst into tears. I just, I was like, I couldn't handle anything.

And so she helped me through, it was all talk therapy. And she was like, I will send you to a psychiatrist if you think you need meds. Because she was like a very pro combining the approaches. Sure. But I didn't, I didn't ever get, I was like, okay, I'm glad that's here for me. But I never got there. So that makes me think that it's actually not chemical therapy.

um with me and it's more situational circumstantial yeah yeah I just said I've never been happier in my life than right now it's so upsetting to that the world is ending because I like I'm I've never been happier and I feel super well that means you're kind of ready to go doesn't it

You've done it. To die? Yeah. I've done it all. How did you do it? Because if you've had so much sadness and from, you know, reading your work and watching all of your stuff, there's been a fair amount of shit that you've gone through. And so what have you had to overcome and how the fuck have you done it? Tell us. Tell the people. Well...

I don't know. I just, I haven't really, my friend calls me the Terminator because literally something tragical happened and I'll be like, right back up. I don't necessarily think that's healthy, but I don't, listen, overall, I have general hope in people. I have hope that there's good people around. Mr. Rogers,

There's this video of him testifying at Congress when they were about to pull the PBS funding in the 80s. And he was saying how scary it was. But one of the things he said was, and this is basically about tragedy and how he helps children on his show. But he was like, whenever there's something disastrous that goes on, I always tell children to look for the helpers.

Don't focus necessarily. I mean, yes, there's something terrible going on, but look for the helpers. And so that's what I try to do when shit's going wrong. Like I try, I accept the negative and I, and I, and I go, okay, some of this stuff is going to be outside of my control to, to, to deal with. Some of it's within my control to deal with. Here's my action items. Here's a plan.

And also, who is around me in this scenario who's making things better or helping? That always gives me hope. And so regardless, it doesn't matter how tragic things get, there's always people around who are just heroes in life and just existing. Yeah, and I think we're taught always to be our own hero and to also be everyone else's. And we're never really taught, women especially, that.

We're always told we're so weak and we need a hero, but we're never actually told we're entitled to one and allowed to look for one ourselves. Do you know what I mean? Everyone says that you are weak and pathetic, you can't do it on your own. But then there are no real resources and there's no encouragement to reach out and ask someone for help. It's like we really are just supposed to do it fucking all.

Which is really intense. Can I ask what some of the things that you've had to go through that you would say contributed to your depression were? Do you feel comfortable sharing? Yes, of course. So a lot of poverty, quite a bit of poverty. My dad was kind of a lost person. He's very smart and very artistic and kind of got pulled in ways in life that he...

So he was in theater school and he got drafted into Vietnam and he was made to do so by his stepdad, who was the head of the Ohio RNC, because he wanted to have a son in military service.

But my dad didn't want to do it, but my dad did it. And my dad came back with the Purple Heart and did a bunch of incredible things that he never talked about. So I was raised by a war veteran with undiagnosed PTSD. Right. Massive rage problems, uncontrollable and unpredictable rage. And a mother who was 17 years younger than him, she was 17 when they got married. So she was a teenage mom. Right.

Right. And my dad, looking back, like my dad was a boomer and so was my mom, even though that's not her generation, because she was a kid when they got married. Right.

And she just emulated my dad. So I had two people who were rageaholics. Totally, I mean, I'm not going to like armchair diagnose, but like sweet, mean, sweet, mean, and you never knew which one was coming and you never knew where you stood. And so I am an expert diffuser of situations because I was trained by two people who were erratic. And...

There was no, there's no safety in that. And there was no calmness. I did not grow up with any calm moments. And so one of the things that I really, in my 30s, I was like, I have to have calmness. I have to have time to myself that's not invaded by other people. That's just for me because I got to catch up on lost time, you know, and have my own thoughts and not feel like they're going to be invaded or I'm going to have someone like

come in my room and blame me for something that I didn't even know was wrong to do. You know, you just never knew. It was the rules were constantly changing. However, it did make me very well equipped for the world because I feel like as a woman, it's the same thing. It's like, you know, if you're too loud at work or you're too, you joke around too much at work or you exhibit behaviors that are not like what they deem acceptable for a woman, you're

Those rules like kind of show themselves. And so I was raised in a way to like be like anything's on the table at any time and you never know what's coming. So you're a professional thin ice skater is what you're saying. Absolutely. Yes. I'm an eggshell tap dancer. That's amazing. Yeah. And awful and hideous. And I'm really sorry because nobody deserves that. And I think a lot of us can't.

But you know, you can turn that stuff into your superpower on some level. And I don't mean that anybody... No one should go through that shit ever. Should never go through that stuff. I would much rather have had like a really calm existence. But I'm able to handle stuff that a lot of people are like, I don't know how you do it. And it doesn't seem like an insurmountable thing for me to take. For example, my dad...

was very sick the last three years. He had throat cancer and he was living in Houston. I'm sorry. And, oh, thank you. He was, he's a very complicated dude. He's living in Houston and I was like, okay, you're done managing your life. I'm managing your life now. And I moved him. I go, where do you want to go? And he goes, Santa Fe. So I moved him to Santa Fe and,

I bought a compound. I put him there. It was so good for our relationship because we'd never been that close, but it was because I like took control and I was like, you're not in charge anymore. And funny enough, removing his sense of responsibility for me actually allowed him to be a human being. He was crumbling. I saw in hindsight, like he was crumbling. Yeah.

under the pressure of taking care of a family and being a dad, which was something he didn't want to fucking do. And he wasn't good at it. He wasn't fucking good at it. But when I took care of him and I said, I'm paying for your housing, I'm taking care of your medical stuff, you can just exist now. He was a fucking delight. He was great. And we got to spend the last three years together because I just was like, we're reinterpreting

what our dynamic is. And it's not on your terms because you're doing a bad job. 100%. Do you have kids? I don't have kids. I don't want children. I've never wanted children. I like children. I don't like children. Sorry. Have you ever, you've never met a child that charmed you? Never, not once.

Not one. Not one single one. I'm so sorry to all of you. I know a lot of you have children. I'm sorry I hate all of your children. But I'm sure they're going to be amazing when they're adult. I love teenagers. Love a teenager. Love an adult. Afraid of children. When you see a four-year-old or a toddler dancing at a wedding, what's your reaction? Can you hear that? Sort of a... Yeah. Or like a geese hiss. Yeah.

It's a real problem. And I hate myself for it. And my dog has inherited it. So now we both hate children, but he growls, whereas I growl internally. And it's not likable. It's not a likable quality, but it's just how I fucking feel. I think more people feel that way. I think more people feel that way than they admit to where they love their own child, but actually they're not that fussed about other children. I'm just not into it. Listen, I don't want kids because I know how much work they are.

I have a friend who's a mother who has like this tab always open and

with flights to like one-way ticket flights to random countries. And she's just always checking the prices and just looking. I love her. The likelihood is she's never going to go. But that tab is always, always open just to give her that sense of relief that, you know what? I could just go to fucking Acapulco. I could just fuck off to Bora Bora right now. I could just do it. I could go buy some stuff from a high street store and just piss off.

I mean, this is like, it's real. It's real. What are the things, and I always think about this too when I think about like all the shitty stuff that's happening in the world. My mom in the 70s couldn't get a fucking credit card. She couldn't have a credit card. Isn't that wild? I know. There's stuff, there's so much, we've made so much progress. And one of the great things is that like now as people who could reproduce-

We can ask ourselves, is this what I want? I don't think that was the case 20 years ago. It was, you were kind of demonized if you didn't, if you didn't,

have kids or someone thought there was something wrong with you. No, now it's completely normalised. But, you know, hearing about your dad who didn't want any responsibilities, who didn't really, you know, thrive in being a father. And I can definitely speak to my own family members as to who was and wasn't appropriate to procreate. Like this shit brings me back to what we started this conversation about, just forcing individuals into the biggest and hardest situation in the world. Music

Thank you today for just in this moment having this conversation with me and just treading the waters of how we feel, how intense this is, but how possible a solution is. Don't lose hope. No, don't lose hope. I'm not going to lose hope. Are you going to lose hope? No. I'm a pessimist who's optimistic about humanity. Yeah.

I always say high hopes, low expectations, but I'm actually forcing myself to have higher expectations now. Otherwise, I'm not going to fight hard enough. We can do this. We have time. We have until the next election, correct, before this Supreme Court

June. June is when they will release their official statement. What that'll do is it'll allow states who already have restrictive abortion rights on the books to continue with that, and there will be no legal avenue to challenge that because the Supreme Court has read their precedent. What can we do? Well,

Well, okay, for example, California's doing this, but it needs to be in the state constitution that abortion is a right and a medical privacy. It needs to be written into code. It needs to be in the constitution. Do not settle for, like, for example, New Mexico just does the same where they're like,

okay, we had all these antiquated books, things in the book where we're not gonna prosecute anybody if you get an abortion, but we had all these books that said we could. So we removed all those. But what they didn't do was put it in the fucking Constitution. So you need to...

to let your reps know that you want that, that you want your rights written in the Constitution because this is the exact problem that we're having with our federal Constitution is that we're not even fucking mentioned in the goddamn thing. So, like, you need to exist in the state's legislature and you need to be seen because you're being represented by these people and so, like, and you're paying taxes and you're doing all this stuff. You deserve to be in writing, in the state laws, existent,

explicitly, this is your right. So what is it that made, because I'd read things that had made me feel as though we have more time than this before this becomes official. All they're ruling on is a certain case. So it will only affect the states that already are trying to erase abortion rights.

It won't affect blue states that are... It's only going to embolden the people who want to do the bad thing. Yeah. What changes at the election, at the point of the next election? If you vote people into power in your state government, that then protect the right to abortion. And we have...

senators and representatives at the federal level who are going to pass laws like the ERA, the Equal Rights Act, which would allow us to have a set of rights codified in our federal documents. Like we have to replace the people doing the bad shit with people who are going to not only reverse that stuff, but make it in stone. You can't do this shit again because this right is protected. Right.

Well, Kamala Harris was recently talking about the fact that the Senate failed to write it into code. It was voted against. And so this means we have to replace and shake up our Senate. We also have two Democrats who are in federal government who vote like Republicans. They're not Democrats. They ran on a Democratic platform, but they're not Democrats. So we don't actually have a Democratic majority in the Senate right now. It's fake. It's wild. It's wild. So fixing that.

Can I ask you, as someone who has a deep, as you said, a granular understanding of the system, what the fuck do we do? What are we going to do? Because I, as an English person, would like to know, what happens next? How long do we have to fight this? Do you know the answers to this? I think I have a place to start, which is locally. So making sure that you're... So the trajectory of most politicians starts with school boards, right?

And so people run for school boards and then they kind of work their way up the political ladder. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. So if you don't have kids, which is totally fine, you should still see who's on the school board because that's kind of the formula for how we do it here in America. And then making sure that if you personally don't want to run for office, that you find some political crush that you're like, this person is doing everything right. And I'm going to put all my energy behind this person, by the way.

It's also very difficult to find someone who's doing everything right. Oh, right. Sorry, not to do perfectionist shit. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. But no, but also the moral purity of the left is what's holding us back and allowing the right to absolutely demolish us. There is a moment where we have to be realistic that the perfect savior who has all of the right perfect values is not coming along anytime soon. Right.

And so we also have to figure out what we can stomach that doesn't take away. They might not be perfect on socialism or something, but at least they are pro everyone's human rights. Or it could be a different thing, like just trying to find people who have human rights at the core of their foundation, but also being willing to accept that sometimes we have to be strategic and we have to think smart and we have to go, okay, I don't love that.

thing that they are, you know, maybe they're not environmentally the best, but they'll fight for these rights or this person is environmentally the best, but they don't do enough of this. It's about really figuring out what you can stomach if you're really realistic rather than waiting for the saint. Especially now, because there's so much damage that's been done. There's so much damage to undo. We can't be...

so rigid. And also, it's hypocritical. It's like, politicians are people. None of us are perfect, so let's stop. And people can turn around. Obama's campaign...

When he was running, you know, in the running to become president at first, he said that he believed that marriage should be between a man and a woman. And he was the one who ushered in equal marriage, equal rights to marriage for everyone. So what someone says they might be into might not necessarily be the thing they're going to stick to. People can change. People are transient. It's definitely a risk. But as long as those risks aren't

so severe that you can't live with them, be willing to be malleable if you can, because we're fucking losing right now. There's no two ways about it. I don't love that politicians on the left feel like they have to do some kind of like respectability politics or like some of them talk so they don't present as humans. And I that I think is that needs to go by the way of the dodo bird, which is probably not a phrase I should say, because I'm sure the dodo

They didn't deserve it. The Dodos didn't deserve it. But that's why that prick, you know, did so well is because he spoke the language of the people who New York and Los Angeles forget about. Yep. Literally forget about. There's so much classism in the left. There's so much like if you can't understand this rhetoric or they don't care if they think about race, they think about gender, they think about...

sometimes disability, although almost never. But we rarely hear the rich and poor. We rarely hear about class and poverty. That always seems to be a conversation that suddenly they back out of. So

It's just, it's very, very tricky. It's super tricky, but I think, despite all the problems, I think starting at a local level, I mean, you know, L.A. historically doesn't turn out for mayoral elections, and that's scary because we have a billionaire running for mayor, and that person is... This is Caruso. Yeah, check the fuck out of society. So it's very scary. I'm very nervous about what's going to happen. We have mail-in ballots everywhere.

There's literally nothing standing in your way to turn out for the mayoral elections. And yet it's like 2% turnout. It's really, really low. He's also donating loads of money to charities who want to take away the reproductive rights of people in California. Like he's fully invested in all of the scariest shit.

He's got the money to do it, and he doesn't need to rely on anyone else for that money because he can pay for it himself. It's scary. And by the way, why? Why do you want to be mayor? Why don't you just be a rich guy? We had Nithya Raman on our show, and she's my council member in L.A., and, you know, she kind of broke down the city council thing. If we have a very liberal city council...

It's not that it doesn't matter that Rick Caruso becomes mayor, but it will definitely dilute his impact. So making sure that you're turning out for your city council elections. Like, we have to participate. We have to participate on a local level because that's where politicians are formed. Not a lot of people jump right into federal government. So we all need to pay attention. We all need to start educating ourselves.

Yeah. California needs to get their shit together. We have a ton of problems. We're not as liberal as we seem. We have a Democratic majority government and we can't put a dent in the problem with people being unhoused and mental health. We can't even put a dent in it. We have an economy the size of France. Where's that money going? Like holding people accountable to and be like, I want this shit fixed because I voted for a tax increase yesterday.

So that part of the sales tax to pay for this stuff, where the fuck is it? So this is daunting, right? If I'm a 16-year-old listening to this episode right now, I'm like, where the fuck do I find out about, yeah, but where the fuck do I find out about a school board? Where the fuck do I find out about mayoral elections and council stuff? You know, like, where do I, how do I, how does that 16-year-old mobilize themselves and their family at least? Yeah.

to? Like, where do they start? Well, I follow DSA LA. Okay, DSA LA. But what about like, what about nationwide? Is there is it sort of like that version for every different state? I'm like a democratic socialist, hardcore, like, that's my Twitter feed, basically, of who I read and who I follow. And then they usually have recommendations for elections, like a cheat sheet.

And I just go and then I do my research based on who they say. And then if I'm like, I don't really know if I agree with this person, then I see who else is running and then I go, oh, actually, this is the best person on this ticket. So I think there's no, no one needs to feel like you have to research everything. There's people out there doing the work. Find them.

And let them give you information and then you do your own research. But I don't think it has to be like a full hitting the ground with no information. There's a lot of incredible organizations out there. And I think finding an organization that you align with, I mean, your local Black Lives Matter chapter, like they're going to have recommendations. Any group that you identify really hard with, they're going to have opinions about this stuff that are probably very well informed. As a jumping off point,

We can do it. If we look at my generation, the generation after that, the generation after that, look at how fucking well we research celebrities. Look at the fucking receipts we bring up on them. Look at how we go 12 years, 15 years into their original Tumblr from when they were a teenager. Like, we...

know how to use the fucking internet. And if we just apply any of the energy that we do on TikTok to getting deep into Amber Heard and Johnny Depp's fucking receipts, like we have more than the capacity to find the truth and to find the resources and to find the information on these people. We just now need to more than ever redirect all of that energy towards no longer picking on each other

but looking for the people who are going to have the power and the patience to acquire the sanity and humanity back into our society. Look for the helpers. I mean, yeah, that's what it is. Seek them out. Also, be like, I'm going to go get a mani-pedi today, and I'm going to spend an hour on my phone looking up candidates. Like, do something you like while you do this, you know? I mean, it's daunting. It's not exciting, but...

But it's necessary. So like, I don't know. Well, it's more exciting than having a baby that you don't want. How long did it take you to feel like you kind of got into the knowledge once you started? Like,

Like I stopped being as clueless when I was about 27 and it really took about a month of starting to get into the weeds of things before I realised this is actually not as complicated as it's been made out to be. It's deliberately made to sound more complicated so that you won't...

it because the less we know and the more intimidating it's made to sound, the easier we will be to control. Knowledge is power. And it has changed my life and made me feel safer to just understand what's going on. It's nowhere near as complicated as it sounds. No. And by the way, find somebody like my friend Ben Sheehan. He wrote a book breaking down the way what the Constitution actually says in layman's terms. And he has an incredible TikTok.

where he explains everything that's happening and why it's happening. So he's talking, you know... Can you spell his name? S-H-E-E-H-A-N. Ben Sheehan. His dad was in politics. He's super smart. He talks like a... He talks to you like you're hanging out as friends. And it's incredible. I mean, I'm lucky that I have friends who are so much smarter than me who can explain things. And I think that's another thing is...

you know, talking about the shame of not knowing, like, you shouldn't be embarrassed to be like, I don't know where to start. Can you help me? What should I know about this? Do you know? I don't think that's shameful at all. I want to learn more to me as like the coolest and sexiest sentence in the world. Absolutely. Yeah. Other than would you like a snack, which is the sexiest and coolest sentence, in my opinion, in the world. Like my vagina just opens. Yeah. Full flooded basement. Yeah.

It's been so good to talk to you. I hope that this has made people feel galvanized, maybe a little bit hopeful. We can't keep going like this. And so, Erin, thank you so much for coming on to this podcast. I can't wait to talk to you again. Thanks for having me. And I believe in us. Me too. Good for us.

Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. I Weigh With Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmy Gregory and Amelia Chapelot. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven't already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It's such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you.

and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast at gmail.com.