Fear: The Cave (Book 6, Chapter 26)
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ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com Chapter 26, The Cave Harry could smell salt and hear rushing waves. A light, chilly breeze ruffled his hair as he looked out at moonlit sea and star-strewn sky. I'm Kasper Ter-Kyle. And I'm Vanessa Zoltan. And this is Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.

That is such a beautiful beginning to the creepiest chapter. Let me paint you a beautiful scenery with waves and sand and salty air and then take you into the dark cave. And then the dead bodies will come.

Casper, we have two announcements before we jump in today. One is that our Every Flavored Bean conversation is going to be a bonus, elongated conversation of our theme of fear. There's so much fear in this chapter, we couldn't possibly address it all in our normal time. So if you would like to hear a longer version of our theme conversation, you can hear that by signing up at patreon.com slash Harry Potter sacred text.

The other announcement, Casper, you are leading your first pilgrimage without me. I'm being let off the leash. Vanessa will not be there to stop me from giggling with you all for the whole four days that we're together on Prince Edward Island as we read the absolute classic Anne of Green Gables. I'm so excited about this pilgrimage because...

I think Anne of Green Gables is singular in the devotion it has amongst its readers and the quality of like courage and cuteness. Like those two things together is just like really top notch. And it's all based on a real place and we get to be in it in this pilgrimage. We really get to see not just the landscape of Anne's world, but honestly, I think also the culture. This will be my first Anne pilgrimage, but

Courtney got to lead a pilgrimage last year and like from the bus driver to the walking guide to the restaurant people, like Prince Edward Island really is that place that is a world of just welcome and kindness and beauty. And so if you're looking for an opportunity to take a step back from your day to day life to reflect on the theme of friendship, which is going to be our guiding kind of North Star for our conversations.

and just be in a really beautiful place with beautiful other people. I hope you'll check out the Anne of Green Gables pilgrimage. We're going in June. All the details are at readingandwalkingwith.com and we have payment plans. So please come and check it out. I hope you'll join me. Yes, we don't just have payment plans though, Casper. We also have a special break for this pilgrimage because our theme is friendship and Anne is all about bosom buddies and kindred spirits. We thought that we would

offer a friendship rate for this trip. So if you are coming with somebody else, if there are two of you coming on this trip, you each get 10% off. So learn more about our payment plans, about this 10% off opportunity, and about our pilgrimages in general at readingandwalkingwith.com.

So Vanessa, we're reading this chapter through the theme of fear. And boy, was that an appropriate theme because there's a lot to be afraid of in this chapter. The word fear comes up 12 times in the chapter. It was a wow moment just to see how often that came up. Yeah. But I'm curious what experience of fear you want to bring to our conversation to kind of read this chapter through. Yeah. So Casper, this is a story that you know well.

But it's the first time I'm going to talk about this publicly with our listeners. So as I think most of our listeners know, I got married in December of 2022. And a couple of months after I got married, so about two years ago, I found out that my husband had been cheating on me. So I had to decide whether or not to stay in the marriage.

We did all of the things that you would think to do to try to save a marriage in the wake of infidelity. We got a couples therapist who we really liked. I read the Esther Perel book, The State of Affairs, Rethinking Infidelity, which I would really recommend to anyone going through this.

And one of the things that Esther Perel says in her book is that finding out that your partner is having an affair can be like getting a cancer diagnosis. That you are never glad to have the diagnosis, but that if you are lucky enough to survive, often people's perspectives are changed profoundly for the better because of it.

And that gave me a real sense of hope, a real hope that we could not just rebuild trust, but actually be stronger than ever. And so I decided to stay out of that sense of hope. And then after about six months, he said to me, I am done trying to rebuild your trust. It's time for you to move on, get over this, stop looking at the past. And that's

And that is a moment looking back, as soon as he told me, I am done trying, I wish I had left that day. But I stayed for four more months. And that's a big transition moment looking back, because I no longer stayed at that point out of a sense of hope.

But I stayed out of fear. And so the thing I want to say about fear is that we experience it as if it is a reflection of what is actually dangerous.

When really, fear is not necessarily telling us about the world. It can be, but it is not necessarily. What it is telling us about is ourselves and what we are insecure about, what we are fearful of. So in this story, right, I was scared of...

All of the repercussions of being single, right, of, you know, not having someone who sort of legally was supposed to be there when I woke up from surgery or not having someone who, you know, was in it with me financially for my retirement.

Those were scary things. Being more financially vulnerable is scary. Not having someone who legally is just allowed to bust into my hospital room is more dangerous. And I was sure that those things were overall going to make my life worse.

And that is not true. Here I am a year after leaving and genuinely, I have not been this happy in years. And my fear was not letting me see that.

all of the positive things that were going to come out of me leaving, including being happier emotionally, even while being more scared and vulnerable financially, for example, but also how much love and support and community was available to me through friendship and family that

I think I had just become myopic in believing that that was what my husband was going to provide for me. And instead, I have just been overwhelmed by this completely unforeseen thing that my fear was not letting me imagine. Fear can make you think that you can see the future. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. I need to prepare for this. My fear is telling me that...

Flying is scary when really we all know that we have irrational fears, that driving to the airport is actually more dangerous than getting on the airplane, that the spider scurrying across the floor is not a poisonous spider and is not actually going to hurt you, right? We all know these things consciously, and yet we behave often as if

our fear is information about what is actually dangerous in the world. And that is what I want us to be skeptical of. That is what I've learned from the last year is that fear is really important information, and yet it can absolutely misguide us about what is actually dangerous. And I think in this chapter, we don't just see fear lying to us

about what is actually dangerous. But I think we see its logical inverse as well. When Dumbledore's lack of fear is making him not assess some truly dangerous things, like dead bodies floating in a lake. I think that often we are bad assessors of what we should actually be afraid of. Well, I...

I first want to say I love you and... Ew! I know we've talked a lot about all of this, but I, you know, it's a big thing. And I'm so sorry that it happened in all the ways that it did. And as I've said...

Many times, I'm so proud of you in each step of the way and each of the decisions that you've made. And even four months is like not that long in the scheme of things. And so I think you were extremely aware of your fears, right? The hopes and the fears. And so I really hear what you're saying that like,

Usually we're trying to lean into a pause and to be mindful. And sometimes being mindful actually means taking action. And so I just want to say from my perspective that I think you did that really beautifully. And it's so very hard to do it in these most difficult

intimate relationships that we have. So that's the first thing I want to say is I love you and I'm proud of you. And yes, Dumbledore is not an accurate assessor of fear because Dumbledore has skills of like, oh, let me read the room literally with my hands in midair and find secret hidden doorways. So like, Harry is like, what are we doing? Where are we going? Oh, there's dead bodies underneath me. This seems worrying. So,

I think it's also so much about like your own experiences, right? Your reference points, like what you know you're capable of. And for other people that seems, I think about public speaking, like you could put me in a room of pretty much anyone and tell me to talk about pretty much anything and I'll have a go. Like I'm not too worried about that.

But for other people, public speaking is absolutely terrifying. But make me change a tire? Yeah. I've peed my pants three times before I picked up the instruction manual. There's also so much about the context of who we are and what we've experienced before. Absolutely. And

And just like the actual context, right? If I was wealthier, I think I would have left sooner. That's interesting. Right? Like there are material things. Harry forgets that fire fights in fury because he is not a fully qualified wizard. So he is right to be materially more scared of the in fury, right? Right.

I mean, part of what I learned in my leaving Peter is how lucky I am that I could leave him, that I had...

a safe place to go. I went and stayed with the Potts's for as long as I needed to until I could get the money together to rent an apartment and that I can afford my own place and I could afford to move out. So the same thing is more and less scary for other people. Absolutely. Casper, the word fear, etymology corner, is from the proto-Germanic word pharaohs, which means danger. Oh. So it's

it is based in like, no, there is danger here. And often that is true. I just want us to question it because sometimes we are afraid when there is no danger. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, Casper, something I am never afraid of is a 30-second recap. Wow. Let's do it. Although I know

of afraid of this one because it is so intense. Okay, count me in. Okay, here we go. 30 seconds on the clock. 3, 2, 1, go. So Dumbledore and Harry arrive at the cave in order to hunt a Horcrux and they get there and Harry is like, dude, how is this going to work? And Dumbledore is like, don't worry, I speak cave. And

And they are able to get to the middle of the thing. And in order to get the Horcrags, Dumbledore has to drink this whole thing that's poisoning him. And he's like, oh, my God, please let me stop. But Harry promised that he wouldn't let him stop. And then Dumbledore is really weak. And so they start to get attacked by the Inferary. And Harry's like, oh, my God, I don't know what to do. And he, oh, my God, that's where I got it.

Let me pick up where you were putting down. Okay. On your mark, get set, go. So they get back in the row, row, row your boat, which has magical powers. And because the only way to get the quenching of the thirst that Dumbledore had, Harry needed to put the goblet in the water and that woke up the sea monsters. And so then they go back and they have to do more blood, but that's big,

you know, because Dumbledore was injured. No, Harry was injured, so he can get the blood. And then they get out of there with the locket. And really what we've seen is Dumbledore in this absolute moment of internal terror and weakness and Harry like force feeding, drinking him this poison. All I want to say is that Voldemort is twisted. Yeah, that's one twisted guy.

Okay, Casper, let's jump in. So much to cover today. So much. Dumbledore kind of does an orientation for Harry to the cave. He's like, "We're in this cave. Voldemort is going to have set this up

for very specific things. Harry is like, "Do you think we're gonna be able to Accio?" And Dumbledore is like, "No, but do it, 'cause we're gonna learn things." - Have a go. - And he's very aware of the places where Voldemort is gonna have set up certain booby traps or hurdles. And the big one that I wanna talk about is this moment in which you have to bleed in order to get past a certain hurdle.

And Dumbledore is like, that's fine because he knows he can magically heal himself. And what that is teaching us about Voldemort is that every hurdle that Voldemort has set up is

is actually a reflection of things that he is afraid of. So Voldemort is afraid of physical strength, so he makes people deplete their strength in order to keep going, right? He's like, make yourself weaker by bleeding. And then even within that, just like little asterisks, is that Dumbledore is less afraid of being hurt than Harry. And arguably because Harry has been physically hurt more, Harry is like,

yeah, it's not the worst thing in the world, but avoid it if you can. I don't know. It still sucks. It kind of sucks. Like, I don't love being injured. Yeah. But I was just thinking about how much of my life is set up around things I'm afraid of, right? Like, I'm an overpacker because I'm afraid of

afraid of being cold or hot or uncomfortable. And like I invested in a good side sleeping pillow because I'm afraid of my neck going out, right? Like I have a very full pantry because I'm afraid of storms and I want to make sure I have food, right? Like so much of our surroundings is based on what we're afraid of. And I think that Voldemort, like this whole cave experience is about Voldemort's fear of mortality, fear of other people attacking, right? This is all about fear.

And often, strength comes from fear. It was interesting to me that Dumbledore uses the word "crude" to describe this particular challenge. - Yeah. - Right? To get into the cave, you have to move through this magical portway of stone. And to find the gateway, you have to shed some blood. And Dumbledore has tried all sorts of other things, and it's like, "Oh, this? Oh, okay." And as you said, partly because he can regenerate healing in this amazing way.

But it also reveals, as you say, so much about Voldemort's psychology. Yes. And it suggests that his psychology is quite, I don't want to say childish, but like,

not very developed, maybe, right? Like that word crude by Dumbledore suggests like a wizard of that skill would be expected to have a kind of psychological awareness or maybe like human development. I don't know, like spiritual wisdom that would accompany the kind of skills that he's developed. And so the picture it painted for me of Voldemort was really clarifying because he's massively over-indexed on magical skill, but he's so under-indexed

on like human maturity. - Right. - And so these very base level things of being afraid of the dark, being afraid of physical weakness, right? Like these very kind of childish fears nearly that when you're, you know, 877 or overall Dumbledore is like,

you know, what you want for Christmas is socks because you know, actually what matters most is not, you know, wealth or power or fame, but it's really comfy socks. I think it's the same with his fears, right? Like it's the fears that he's hurting the people he loves rather than physical weakness or scary, the dark. Yeah.

Right, because the dark is scary because it's unknown, but the unknown is scary because you can't prepare for it, right? Right. And this sense that you can prepare for all things is a childish understanding of the world. But yeah, Dumbledore does seem to have this deep wisdom of not being afraid

afraid of anything anymore. And I do think that that is in part because he knows he's dying. I think so too. And he's like, literally, what are you going to do to me? Like, I am probably going to die tonight. Yeah, 100%. There's an acceptance, I think, from Dumbledore that shapes it. And it feels like there was a moment where you accepted the risk in your decision to leave that was more like

attractive than the certainty of staying. And I think there's something echoed here for me in the decision Dumbledore is making, which is like, he knows how this is going to end. And so he's asking himself, what can I do with the time I have left to be of most service? And like Moses, right? He's never going to see the promised land, right? He knows Voldemort will survive him, most likely. Yeah.

And yet he is willing to make these sacrifices in all the problematic and wonderful ways that we know with Dumbledore. But there is this courage that, or this clarity, maybe even more than courage, the clarity that emerges from the acceptance of, I am going to die. Now what am I going to do with it? Yeah. And just this desire to do everything you can.

Right? Yeah. When we lose sight of our mortality is when our priorities get unclear. Which is the Trifoldimo's name. Right. Like run away from death. The clue is in the name. Right. And so, of course, his priorities are totally off. He is busy just trying to harness a sense of immortality. I feel like so much of my life is trying as someone who's an atheist.

is trying to be like, remember, you're going to die and there's no afterlife. And so you want to make sure that you're doing everything you can because time is so short. Life can feel long, but actually it goes by quickly. And so you want to live the meaningful life. I'm trying to always procure for myself the sense of urgency and perspective that Dumbledore has in this chapter. I want to live that all the time. And it's really hard to do. It

It feels like he's chosen the right fears to have. Yes. Right? It's not like you're going to live a life without fear, but like which fears are you going to listen to, I guess. That's what I'm taking away. Yeah. Which fears are not lying to you and which fears are, right? It's not that all fears lie to you. It's just that fear can lie to you. It's a tricky little thing.

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Dumbledore and Harry are scared of totally different things in this chapter, which we talked about a little bit at the beginning. And as much as I want

personally to try to harness this sense of urgency in my life all the time. Also, if you have 50 more years to live, you do have different things to be scared of than if you have a day left to live, right? You can blow all your money if you're going to die tonight, whereas Harry's got to plan for having a body for longer. So I feel like Dumbledore sometimes is like, no, Harry, that's not a reasonable thing to be afraid of. And I'm like,

for Harry? Well, I mean, Harry's journey through this chapter is constant escalating fear. I mean, it starts with questions like, is this boat safe? Will it hold both of us? Like very reasonable questions. There's rickety little boat coming out of the water. Like, yeah, I'd be afraid of that too.

Right? And the text tells us he could no longer pretend he was not scared. And so his experience, yes, he's here for the first time. Yes, he's got maybe more to lose than Dumbledore too. It's just one thing after another. And Dumbledore seems to have this...

familiarity both with the space and also control of magic as we were saying that makes this a less intimidating thing I think the other thing that's important is his confidence in his assessment of Tom Riddle yeah he's like I know this man and I know his magic well for Harry yes there's so much more of his story that he now understands he has the context right he knows more about who Voldemort was and is but

But he's still this terrifying, powerful wizard rather than a young boy who went off the tracks. And so there's kind of even an unknown relationally, like to the source of a lot of this magic for Harry in a way that for Dumbledore, he can say something like, oh, how crude, you know.

Or like, oh, of course, well, if there's infuri, right, that's going to be because at some point we're going to have to get in the water. I know that's coming. It's like a puzzle. Well, for Harry, it's just like heading out into a house of horrors. I mean, I think about my most fearful experiences. I think this little...

camp like sleepaway camp that I went to like four days long when I was eight or nine and there was like a horror house I pretended I broke my leg so that they would turn the light on and that they would take me out I could not handle it I just have never ever wanted to do that ever again and so I feel like that's how Harry is in here that I mean he's being so much more graceful than I am but

every single movement every single physical item everything could be dangerous well for Dumbledore there's a sense of okay I'm in control I know the sequence of what's going to happen broadly so their experiences of fear even in the same place with the same magic is so different and I

more experienced people forget how scary it is for the less experienced. Yes. Right. I always watch flight attendants during turbulence and they always look so bored. They're like, oh, the next 30 seconds is going to be uncomfortable. But like they just have all this experience of, you know, this isn't scary. It's unpleasant. And you look at a first time flyer and it's

And I think that it can be really hard to remember that.

how helpful those stories are of like, I have thought I have heard creepy things in the night many times before, and it's never actually been anything scary. So it probably isn't scary this time either. But the funny thing is, is that Dumbledore is like, look, I've hunted Horcruxes before and everything's been, wait, no, everything has not been fine. He is dying from having destroyed one of the Horcruxes.

Which I think is why he is scared for Harry. He is so focused on Harry's safety throughout this chapter, right? He's like, I will cut myself. You do not cut yourself. I will go first because I want to make sure everything is okay, right? It is scarier for Harry because he's inexperienced. But also, again, it's simultaneous. It's psychological and it's material. It's psychological and it's material at every turn. Right.

So what do you make of this like famous quote that we come to in this chapter, which is, "It is the unknown," and this is Dumbledore, "It is the unknown that we fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more." Is he saying that from his own perspective of, "I too fear the unknown," right? "I am facing my death soon, and I don't know what's coming." Or do you think he's saying this as like a wise person who's answered this question and has accepted the unknown?

Like, is he wrestling with that question himself in this moment? I don't think so, because in book one, right, he says this about Nicolas Flamel, right? "After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." Someone who believes in my bones that the thing that happens when you die is finality, and that, like, a lack of consciousness, I still think being afraid of dying is reasonable, and it's not just about the unknown. Death feels very

feels very known to me and obviously not the process of dying and I hope that I'll have lived a beautiful life and not be in pain when I'm dying and therefore be like wow I'm 86 and I'm still having a new experience how fascinating but I also think the fact that death can come at any time

and that you're not going to live any more life. I just hard disagree with you, Dumbledore. That is not the only thing that is scary about death. Also, being in pain is scary. There's so much to be afraid of with death. And I don't think that that is my fear lying to me. I think that confronting those fears is part of being alive and admitting that we are vulnerable to those things is...

is one of the humbling things about being alive. And hopefully, it allows us to reach out and connect to other people and live as meaningful of a life as we can on the day-to-day. But that is absolutely because the grief of the fact that we are mortal is forever. I mean, the other thing that strikes me is that Dumbledore in this sentence is speaking in these kind of grand, you know, abstract, philosophical tones...

And yet in this chapter we see Dumbledore at his most afraid. Yes. Right? He figures out that he cannot get to the locket unless he drinks the potion that is above it.

And he starts to drink and he knows that it's going to make him not want to continue. And that's why Harry's there to help him finish it. And it gets increasingly terrifying. I mean, what we hear these snippets of Dumbledore's words, I don't want, don't make me, make it stop. And at the end, he's saying, you know, please kill me, like make it end. I want to die because this is worse than death. And so there's an interesting contrast for me about Harry.

This kind of philosophical perspective of like, oh, yes, it's just the unknown. And yet here he's in in his brain. Right. That potion is making him see things that are very known, things that are very clear and are absolutely terrifying to him. And so I think exactly like you're saying.

Like he's disagreeing with himself in a way because there are absolutely terrifying things that life and death both bring him. And in some ways, Dumbledore as a character in these books is always removed from those every day, right? He's removed from relationships. He's removed from Harry. He's removed from, you know,

cooking. And he lives in this kind of like upper plane, this higher echelon. Yes, where he's doing great strategy and great wizardry, but now he's pulled down into the very bodily real suffering that makes this scene so frightening and so compelling because this great wizard is brought to his knees physically and emotionally. And it's part of what makes this a great chapter is that he is making these proclamations and

so clearly, and then we see the limits of the proclamations. - Yeah. - Right? Like, the only thing to be afraid of is the unknown, and also reliving every childhood trauma and mistake that you've ever had, right? Or whatever it is that's happening to him. And so, I think that there's great wisdom to Dumbledore in what he says about fear in this chapter, and I think that there are limits to what he's saying, and that the chapter shows us both.

Now it's time for a spiritual practice. And this week we are going to do Pardes, the great Jewish practice, four steps in which we kind of explore an orchard and pluck a sentence from the sacred text, like a piece of fruit from an orchard, and bite into it to be nourished. And Vanessa, you've chosen a sentence for us to bite into together. What is the sentence?

So usually we pick a sentence at random. We pick an apple from the orchard at random. But I went straight for this apple. I was like, this is the apple I want. And it is here. Drink this. Drink this. You'll be all right, said Harry desperately. And once again, Dumbledore obeyed him, opening his mouth, even as he kept his eyes tight shut and shook from head to foot.

And the reason that I picked this Casper is because Harry is doing this terrible thing that I think several of us have done in our lives, which is make someone suffer because we know it's good for them. Whether it's like you take your child for their vaccine or the dog to the vet. Clarinet lessons. Whatever. And you lie to them in order to convince them to do it. Right. And it's.

It's just absolutely heartbreaking and really evocative. And I think something that a lot of us can relate to. So the first step that we'll engage this text with is the pshat. This is the kind of surface level reading or the literal reading of what's going on in this sentence. So let me just read the whole sentence again. It's a little long, but it is all one sentence.

"'Here, drink this, drink this. You'll be all right,' said Harry desperately. And once again Dumbledore obeyed him, opening his mouth even as he kept his eyes tight shut and shook from head to foot.

And what strikes me in this sentence is just the physicality of what we're seeing, right? The shaking from head to foot, the closing of the eyes, the opening of the mouth, the desperation in Harry's voice, right? That like urging quality. I mean, it's very descriptive, but just like I'm seeing the picture as we read it at this literal level. Yeah, it's also about the two things that are scary that we were talking about earlier, which is like psychological fear and physical fear, right?

Right. I remember my mom and I getting into a fight when I had to go for a vaccine when I was six or seven years old. And I was like sobbing and flipping out and just like really mad that I had to get shots. And my mom said to me as she was holding me, like kind of holding me down to get this shot.

being like, "This is just as hard for me as it is for you." And I was like, "Uh-uh, I'm the one getting stabbed." And now, like, as a parent, I'm like, "Watching your kid suffer is so hard." And so I think-- Right, but we were both right, right? Like, the-- This is so hard for Dumbledore. He is the one actually going through this experience.

But I think that this really shows how hard it is also for Harry, right? This like, drink this, drink this, you'll be all right. Like having to lie and having to further poison someone who you love. I think it gets to the heart of like two very different kinds of distress and shows how painful both of them are.

Which is actually about love and compassion, right? That like watching someone suffer is its own form of suffering. Totally. And that's what, you know, Dumbledore's going to see in the vision of this, the impact of this potion is paying for the people he loves.

Well, let's go beyond the surface and dive into the remes. And the way we do that is to pick a particular word. And there's plenty of words to choose from in this sentence and see how that connects us to other hints, other deeper meanings from across the book as well. What word do you want to pick from this beautiful sentence? Let's do obeyed, Casper. Okay.

Huh. Once again, Dumbledore obeyed him. Yeah. Okay. Because Dumbledore obeying Harry, right, is...

obviously a power flip. Harry's usually obeying Dumbledore. Obviously with obedience, I'm immediately thinking all of the house elves, whereas like that's even obedience, right? Like that is just like complete dominations and it's a physical enchantment in which they don't even have the choice, but to obey. So obedience does imply at least a little bit of choice and there isn't any, what else is coming to mind for you?

Well, I mean, I'm seeing the interesting duality in this use of obey because absolutely Dumbledore is obeying Harry as he says, drink this, drink this. But Harry is obeying Dumbledore in making him drink it in the first place. Yes. Because Dumbledore asked him, like, do you have to make me drink this? Like, do whatever it takes.

And so this really interesting, yeah, bind, this dual bind where they're obeying one another in a way that's very different from the house elf example, exactly. Because except for Dobby, Dobby is the exception to that rule because Dobby is free. That is a relationship in which, you know, he is choosing that obedience from a place of love, from a place of devotion. That is a little more complicated than that. But I think it's interesting that both of these interweaves

individual cases of, you know, obeying are dual, right? Like they're more complicated than simply, you know, one person obeying the other. There's a choicefulness to it.

I'm trying to think where else do we see, I mean, there's so many relationships of loyalty. I think of Hagrid and his relationship to Dumbledore. I mean, even just the way in which the Death Eaters obey Voldemort, right? Like this kind of desperation to find love through obedience. Yes.

Absolutely. I was also thinking of, you know, the moment in which Dumbledore sends the reminder letter to Petunia. And that's a moment in which she, like, chooses to obey Dumbledore again and live up to the memory of her sister. Oh, that's a powerful one. So what is obedience about? Obedience is in part about fear and power. It's fear and power with, like, 1% of choice. Mm-hmm.

Right? Because it implies that there is punishment to be had. Whether it is like, I have resisted my commanding officer, and therefore I can choose to not obey, but I will be court-martialed. Or I can choose to not obey Dumbledore, but then I'm going to have betrayed this promise that I made. Obedience, I do think, implies just the slightest bit of the ability to rebel. Right?

But there are external consequences if you don't follow through. Yeah, there's significant consequences. And I'm just thinking part of what we love about Harry is how infrequently he obeys. He resists Petunia and Vernon, he resists Umbridge, and in this moment, it is just out of love and commitment and devotion that he just keeps obeying Dumbledore. Wow. Okay, so we've moved from the surface level, we dove deep into the Remez,

And now the invitation is to think of a drush, which is what's our little teaching? What's our little sermonette that we might give based on this piece of text? What's the message that we might want to elucidate from this piece of sacred writing? Here, drink this, drink this. You'll be all right, said Harry desperately. And once again, Dumbledore obeyed him, opening his mouth even as he kept his eyes tight shut and shook from head to foot. I mean, I think...

I think it is. This is something I wrote about in my book and I'm obsessed with in Jane Eyre. So it's just so funny. I think that it is that in moments of distress, we should trust our past selves and then reevaluate once the distress has passed. Because I think in moments of distress, that is when you're like, my past self didn't know. I promised to obey Dumbledore, but I didn't realize how sad and hard this was going to be. So no. No.

And I think that that's not the moment to change the plan. It is possible that you go back to your conversation with Dumbledore later and you're like, next time, I'm not going to promise that I'm going to have a longer conversation. But I think that we have to pick our values and make our commitments in sobriety. And this gets to the heart of my story also, that fear is not an emotion that you can necessarily trust.

And so it's in moments of panic, trust, sober, ew, which is what Harry does. I think that that's what I would preach on. Which, again, I know I've quoted this on the podcast a million times, but to some extent, it's the premise of our whole company, right? Laws and principles are not for the times when there is no temptation. They are for moments such like this, when body and soul rise in mutiny against their rigor. If at my convenience, I might break them, what would be their worth?

Right. Like we have to pick our values ahead of time really carefully and practice them so that we can live into them when they're hard. So, yeah. What about you?

I, since the election in the US, have deleted my news apps because I just didn't want to stay in that cycle of anxiety and like, "Oh, what has he done this day? What has he done that day?" Now we're recording this a little bit ahead of the release date, which is as our president is being sworn in in the United States.

And so I feel like I have to open my mouth even as I keep my eyes shut in the sense of like, I don't know what the right way to be in relationship with the news is at the moment. And at this, I know I don't want to like put my head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend it's not happening, but nor do I want to scroll the New York Times website five hours a day every day. And so like, how can I be alive and in the world for which I'm imagining opening a mouth while keeping my eyes tight? Like,

I think I want to look at something else. Maybe it's not keeping our eyes tight shut, but it's opening them in a specific direction. This is a sermon in development, but there's something there about the duality of like, you know, living into the unknown that you can't control and you don't know where it's going.

while keeping your eyes somewhat open, but not getting fixated on things that are going to drive you into a place that's just not good for you or anyone else. So I think that's where I would look to develop a little drush. Yeah, no, I love that. I really think that's so important. That as understanding how desperate times are and then creating a life beautiful enough that it's the thing you want to fight for. Yes.

Right. That's all I know how to do in this moment is just like, how can I that's I think the opening his mouth that that's the bit that I'm resonating with is like, I don't want to also close my mouth. Maybe I am fine closing my eyes for a bit, but I want to open my mouth and live, you know, like and create beauty and connect people and and do things in a scale where I do have influence rather than looking at like government policy at a federal level where frankly, I have very little power.

But like, can I bring neighbors together? Like, can I create something beautiful? Can I host a house concert? Can I, you know, yes, I can do all of those things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that takes us to our final step in our Pardes practice, which is the sode, the secret.

And we try and cultivate an air of mystery for this final step in our Pardes practice. So I'm going to read it once more. And let's see if something unexpected lands on our shoulder and whispers in our ear. Something in this text that is a secret that's just arrived.

Here, drink this. Drink this. You'll be all right, said Harry desperately. And once again, Dumbledore obeyed him, opening his mouth even as he kept his eyes tight shut and shook from head to foot. Oh, I'm thinking of how shaking is...

Well, my first thought was praying, was this moving back and forth, that kind of rocking, you know, in Jewish prayer, traditionally, you're davening, you're rocking back and forth. So there's an element of shaking. But then I thought about the shakers. I thought about ritual dance and basically how moving the body is a way of processing trauma. And so even as he's shaking, maybe Dumbledore is already like trying to work through some of the impact of what is happening to him.

And so I guess my Sode is something about like trusting our body and

even in the most horrific situations. Like there's a, I don't want to say more resilience than we understand because that can be, you know, weaponized, but there is a strength here in Dumbledore that is so beyond his physical capacity that seems to be, you know, he keeps drinking, right? Despite everything, because he's so clear on what, what he needs to do amidst all the pain and the horrors. So I don't know. I like, I guess Taylor Swift, shake it off. That's my sound. Yeah.

How about you? I was also struck by the shaking while processing what you said for your trash. And part of shaking is your body being in more than one place at the same time, right? It's this constant moving. And, right, it's you want to stay up on the policy enough to know who's vulnerable, to know who to gather, right? But you don't want to stay up on the policy stuff so much that you lose control

the will to gather. Which was what was happening to me. Right. Exactly. Which is like this bobbing and weaving that we all have to do, right? You know, a young person in my life is non-binary and knew that one day they wanted to change their name on their birth certificate. And, you know, now that Trump is in office, they were like, oh, I'm going to do this now. Right? Like you have to be

enough checked in to take the actions that you want to take. Yep. But then just go and take the beautiful action, right? Of like going and getting this document notarized. Yeah. And doing the things you can do. And so that's what I was struck by shaking. It's also like a bobbing and weaving, right? A going back and forth. That's beautiful, Vanessa. Thank you. Thank you, Casper.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. This week's voicemail is from an anonymous listener. Let's take a listen. Hey, Vanessa, Casper, Ariana, Matt, and the whole crew. So I'm currently in book five of season one, but I saw your newest episode on failure and I had to listen to it. So then I returned back to season one and I listened to healing from book five, chapter 15. Also welcome back, Casper. It's like you've never left.

Vanessa, I completely understand your feeling towards your endometriosis diagnosis. I was in a car accident at 15 and I suffered migraines, pain, and all kinds of stuff for every day about 10 months after the accident. They didn't know what was wrong with me until about seven months. I was finally diagnosed with two spinal injuries in my neck and I had been hoping for a diagnosis that whole time because I'd rather be validated in my pain. I had been to several doctors and none of them validated how I felt and would make excuses for my symptoms. I was in a car accident at 15 and I suffered migraines, pain, and all kinds of stuff for every day about 10 months after the accident.

I was a 16-year-old girl that wasn't being taken seriously. Once I started to get stronger and get my life back, I was in another car accident that caused four more spinal injuries that put me back to square one. I was very active before my two accidents, so I've been trying to find the balance again with yoga and light work. Continuing life now, I continue to forget about what I've gone through and constantly downplay it when comparing to other people's traumas. Harry downplays his bravery and courage when facing Voldemort and all the horrors he's seen, which I do too.

I felt like a failure for so long now. Physical strength is something I've worked so hard for, and now I feel weaker than ever. I constantly forget the amount of things I've been through, especially since my injuries are invisible to those around me. I feel like I have to continue on with life normally with these chronic injuries, even though I'm in pain every day. Realizing it now, my constant resilience to my trauma is what makes me stronger than before. I would like to bless anyone who doesn't give themselves grace for their trauma and who do not acknowledge their own perseverance. May you find peace and comfort within your trauma and yourself.

Thank you guys for everything. I really enjoy this podcast. Love you guys. Bye. Thank you so much for this beautiful voicemail. I think it gets to the heart of something which blows my mind regularly, but just is like how much it matters to feel seen and seen in our complexity and our, our, our all and even seen in our pain and distress and our

Yeah, I think that that is one of the things that we can offer one another. And it doesn't take away the physical pain of multiple spinal injuries. And I'm just so, so sorry that you're going through all of that pain. But it is still necessary, but not sufficient to also feel seen for who we are. Well, so because it helps us see ourselves, right, in that way. And I think that's what this listener is so powerful in articulating is like,

I saw my own strength in a way that I didn't when I was seen as weak, right? Yeah. There was this other part of my story and my reality that was not seen. And so I didn't see it myself either. So I really appreciate your voicemail. And Vanessa and I always love it when you guys listen and then say, love you guys at the end of a call. We love you all too. Thank you for listening. Thanks for your voicemail. It is now time for us to honor members of our community who have been loved and lost.

Zadie Sam, who was 96, a kind and gentle person who was always willing to walk the dogs. Jadwiga Symes, who was 69, a beloved mother, teacher, and an inspiration. Luc Saint-Louis, who was 59, an eccentric godfather and beloved great uncle. And Carol Pass, who was 81, a philosopher, activist, and grandmother.

May their memories be a blessing to us all. Casper, I am gonna bless Harry today. I just think what he's doing is so scary and so brave. And I just believe Dumbledore at the end of this chapter when he says, I'm not scared, I'm with you. I'm not worried, I'm with you. I think that Dumbledore just knows that this kid's got a big heart and

And so much courage. And so that Harry will do everything that he can. And what a more beautiful thing to hear from someone than like, you are my sense of safety. And I think that that is not unfairly bestowed on Harry. I think he earns that. So yeah, I want to bless him. What about you?

Well, I had that experience recently where one of the joys of being in the same sex couple, although it's not limited to that, is that you can wear each other's clothes. Sure. And so I was wearing Sean's beautiful green coat and put my keys in the inside pocket. But within three seconds, my keys were at the very bottom of the coat's inner lining because there was a hole on the inside of the inside pocket. There has been for years. I know about the hole in the...

coat yes turns out both sides because then i was like oh this side has a hole in it once i'd fished out i was like i'll put it in the other side same thing happened i have now made sure that we have fixed that coat um but my blessing therefore is anyone who in the wizarding world came up with with a spell or some sort of magical ceiling for wizard pockets because dumbledore casually puts this

absolutely precious Horcrux locket in a pocket and just like heads on out. They swim through freezing water. They have to deal with, you know, they're going to magically fly or apparate out into, you know, the wizarding world again. And this locket stays safe in the pocket. So I just want to bless anyone who came up with that magic or anyone who's finding some clever hack that keeps things in the place where they need to be.

I mean, wizard pockets, right? Wands, where are those all the time? I've been wondering that for years. I know. Absolutely. Is there like a lining, a hiding place for the wands? Who knows? Do they get smaller? So a blessing for you, wizard pocket makers. Next week, we are reading book six, chapter 27, The Lightning Struck Tower with Daniel Schrader, my co-host on Let's Ask Taylor Swift.

through the theme of helplessness. Just a few reminders before we give our thanks. You can join the Casper Turk Isle in Prince Edward Island reading Anne of Green Gables through the theme of friendship in June of this year. Find out more by going to readingandwalkingwith.com and

you can always enjoy ad-free episodes by subscribing to Apple Podcasts or to our Patreon. This was a Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production company. We are sponsored by the Fetzer Institute. I'm the executive producer and we are edited and produced by AJ Aramas. Our music is by Ivan Paizow and Nick Boll and we are distributed by Acast.

Thank you to our anonymous listener for their voicemail this week. We love you too. And to Ariana, Nettleman, Julia, Argi, Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Casper Chakaya, Matt Potts, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Lingley, and Stephanie Paulsell. We'll see you next time. Bye, everyone. Matt is convinced that Rory thought that there were like nine cats because the cat would follow her and jump off of surfaces to like attack Rory. And so Rory walked around the whole house like this. And Matt was like, Rory thinks that there are nine cats. It's like, she probably does.