Let's Ask Taylor Swift: Tim McGraw
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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Hi, everybody. We are dropping into this feed today with something very special. We are launching our first new podcast since 2020. And this podcast is called Let's Ask Taylor Swift. We want to make sure that you know about this podcast. We are really proud of it.

and excited about it. We worked really hard on it. And so we are dropping episode one of the podcast here so that you can listen easily. But you're also going to want to go over and subscribe to Let's Ask Taylor Swift in your podcast feed. Because if you like this episode, where we talk about the song Tim McGraw, you are going to love our second episode, which is already in the feed on the song Love Story. We hope to see you over in the new feed. Like and subscribe. And we'll talk to you soon.

I'm Vanessa Zoltan. I'm Daniel Schrader. And this is Let's Ask Taylor Swift. Okay, Daniel, I knew the title of this song for years before I listened to this song. Because you just knew Tim McGraw's name or? Taylor Swift had like an early hit single called Tim McGraw. I thought it was about an interaction that she had with Tim McGraw.

I did not realize that Tim McGraw was a metaphor in the song until just like a few months ago. I think it'd be a very like kind of crazy career opener to like write a song about somebody else in the music industry, specifically in the country industry in that way. If it were like about like a Tim McGraw, this is about you. I thought.

Opening line. I knew the opening line. He said, the way my blue eyes shine put the Georgia Stars to shame. I was like, wow, this is about the first time she met Tim McGraw. I don't want Tim McGraw saying that to a teen. I agree. So the first time I really listened to the song closely, my first feeling was relief. I was like, oh, my God, the song is not about Tim McGraw being inappropriate. It's about Tim McGraw being a great songwriter.

I'll admit that I actually only ever heard the songs of Maggie Rogers song. Oh, my God. I love the Maggie Rogers cover. Oh, summer long in the time we woke up to find summer has.

It's fantastic. And I heard that and was like, I love this song so much. And then when someone was like, you know, that's a Taylor Swift cover, right? I was like, okay. It's always funny when you know the cover first.

My favorite cover of a song story is that Chris Christopherson said that he didn't realize he wrote me and Bobby McGee for Janis Joplin to sing until she sang it. And then he wouldn't sing it anymore. He was like, no, I'm sorry. That's a Janis Joplin song. I love how one of my friends was convinced that the chicks wrote Landslide. Yeah.

So in this podcast, we are going to bring a question to each of Taylor Swift's songs. We think that Taylor has answers for us. And so we are going to bring her debut song on her debut album, Tim McGraw, off of the self-titled album, Taylor Swift. We are going to bring that song the question, how do we want our exes to remember us? Because we think that Taylor has something to say on this subject. Okay.

Arguably, she has like decades of things to say on the subject. This is one of her favorite questions. Oh, yes. She loves to ponder about her exes and journal about them and then sing about them. She also is obsessed with her own legacy and reputation, right? Hello, title of an album. So she is constantly trying to control her narrative. And it's fascinating that her very first song is like, let me control a narrative. I love it.

Yeah, she's opening her career by telling us who she is. Yeah, it's incredible. Okay, so before we dig into our question, Daniel, you are in charge of our liner notes section of this podcast. What do you think that we need to know about the history and backstory of this song in order to ask it this question?

Yeah, for sure. So as you've already said, this is her debut single. It was released in June 2006. And she wrote the song apparently in math class about an ex of hers and the heartbreak that she had over their relationship ending because he was moving away to college. And she was in like, ninth grade at the time.

And she ended up writing the song with Liz Rose, who's a frequent early collaborator of hers, in about 15 minutes once they sat down at the piano after school one day. So just kind of hammered it out and made this gem. I hope you think my favorite song The one we dance to all night long When you think happiness I hope you think that little black dress

And this is the thing about Taylor Swift, right? She takes these deeply personal things like a breakup that you're so obsessed with that you can't help but journal about it in math class and hires a professional songwriter to, you know, help her turn it into a thing.

Yeah, if only I had had a professional songwriter to create a song for me out of the journal entry that I wrote on my graphing calculator in math class in high school about a boy. You did? Yeah.

Yes. Oh, my God. And that's a real tedious thing to do because the letters are just alphabetical and you got to hunt and peck. But yeah, I was had a lot of feelings and understood math well enough that I didn't need to pay attention. I didn't pay attention in math class either, but because I didn't understand it. OK, so what do you think that this song is just like literally saying before we ask it any questions? We have to just understand it on its own terms. Yeah.

So, I mean, I think it's right in the lyrics. I hope you think of me. I hope that these things that were significant to us...

bring me to mind, bring our relationship to mind. It's very much the Proust's Madeline. Yes. But Taylor Swift's Tim McGraw. So, yeah, I think that it's really trying to conjure images of what was good about the relationship, even though it's over. Yeah. She's like trying to create an earworm for him. Right. Or it's instructive.

Like a Pavlovian response of every time you hear Tim McGraw. Exactly. You think Taylor Swift. She's like giving him the treat. Like Tim McGraw. What is it? Good boy. You think of me. Exactly. Yes. It's also the story of her dropping off a letter to him. So pretty early in the song, she says, in a box beneath my bed is a letter that you never read from three summers back.

And then at the end of the song, she says, right, I'm back for the first time since then standing on your street. And there's a letter left on your doorstep. And the first thing that you'll read is when you think Tim McGraw, you'll think of me. And so there's a narrative arc here about a letter. She's telling us the content of the letter, which is this Pavlovian response that she's trying to train him into. But she's also telling us the story of dropping off the letter. Is that right, Amy?

Yeah, it is. And I think that like, that's an interesting point to bring up, because I think Taylor Swift is often thought of so much as a storyteller. And this is kind of the first song she wrote. And it has a story in it just baked in that we don't even necessarily notice at first. I definitely didn't think about it at first. I was lost in the reverie of past relationships and not thinking about the letter story at all.

I do think that this is also a song that is just like just textually about nostalgia. The song starts with their meet cute, right? You get the image that this guy came up to her and complimented her eyes and she immediately kind of mocked him back. He said the way my blue eyes shined. But those Georgia stars, it's a shame that he said that's a lie.

Okay, I'm glad that you have explained this to me because I couldn't understand where their relationship this story fit. Oh, because to me, I was just imagining like that they were just lying on the back of his like truck bed, staring up at the sky. And he says this thing to her just in kind of like an offhanded way. And she's like, no, no, no. So saying that it's their meet cute makes a lot more sense to me than just like,

a random conversation they had that she's remembering.

Oh, I like your reading too, though. I was picturing he comes up to her and he's like, hey, your blue eyes put the Georgia stars to shame. And she's flirting back, right? Like, that's a lie. You're flattering me. But I also like the idea that they're like looking at the Georgia stars and he's like, your eyes are prettier than these stars. Why does that bother you? I like either version. It doesn't bother me necessarily. I just didn't really understand. Like, I couldn't fit it into like a context of the rest of the song. Oh.

Oh, got it. Now it makes a lot of sense because it is maybe her first memory of them that this is bringing up. And so I like I like that reading a lot more than just some random night that he says this and she kind of tosses it off as nothing because it felt less intimate that way. This feels more like playful and important than like just it being a random night that they were together.

Don't of your past relationships, don't you have these like little memories that come back to you that you're like, oh, yeah, that was cute. And for whatever reason, yeah.

They play in your head. I think either way, right? It's this compliment that comes back to her and this dynamic of theirs where he, for whatever reason, would compliment her in these really grandiose ways and she would feel the need to reject the compliment. Relatable. Exactly. I was in a long relationship, like a five-year relationship with

over 10 years ago now. And I think I mostly only remember vignettes of it. And so little things will come to mind. I'll put on a pair of earrings and I'll be like, Bob liked these earrings. You know, like I won't think about him for months. And then something, I don't know, little will pop into my brain. I totally get that feeling. I have a pair of overalls that whenever I pull them out, I'm like, oh yeah, that Halloween party I went to as a minion with this guy.

The thing that is interesting about this song, though, is how little of it is about him and the things she loved about him. It seems to me that the only thing she really loved about him was that he had a Chevy truck that kept getting stuck. And that's somehow charming. Right. And that she liked putting her head on his chest. Other than that, this is all about love.

like joint memories of a kind of romance. Right. But not even joint memories though, because it really is about her. Like it's about her head on his chest, not how his chest feels with her head resting on it. It's about her blue jeans. It's about her black dress, her favorite song. What's his favorite song? What clothes did he wear that she liked? We don't know because for her, the memories that were important were hers, not his. Yeah.

Well, at least the memories that she wants to be important to him. Right. Again, this isn't actually about her memories. This is about what she wants him to remember. Right.

Which I think gets to the heart of this question that we're asking, right? How do we want our exes to remember us? And that is our next segment. The question is, what do we think Taylor's answer to this question is? Not just Taylor Swift in general, because she has a lot of answers to this question. What answer do we think Taylor Swift is putting forth through the song Tim McGraw as an answer to this question, how do we want our exes to remember us?

And I think what she's saying is, I want you to remember that I was hot, that I looked great, both in a little black dress and in blue jeans. And I want you to remember the way my head fell on your chest, probably because he said something about it. Right. I mean, the answer seems to be like she wants him to remember her. Period. Period. But also like viscerally the feel of her.

and what she looked like and acting

they did together. It's not about a narrative he's telling of like, oh, she was sweet to me. Oh, she was good to me. It's like, I want you to remember physically me. Right. And the feelings that like those physical moments conjured, like you were just saying earlier about those vignettes that you remember. Those are the things that she wants him to remember is just those little flashes of memory that conjure a feeling, not that conjure a story because stories can go forever.

Right.

Part of me wants to be like, this is actually so humble. Like, all I want you to remember about me is my little black dress and the song. When I want my exes to remember me, I don't know, as like the one who got away or like as that awesome girl who did nothing wrong. And looking back, boy, did they mess up or something, right? Like, I actually want quite a lot.

On the face of it, what she's asking for is really humble, right? Like, I want you to remember the way that I looked in my jeans. She isn't asking for... The moon. Yeah, she's not asking for the moon. She's not even asking to be remembered as a great first love, right? It's really just what I wore. And she has this lyric that really trips me up. She says, when you think happiness, I hope you think that little black dress.

And so it's like every time he's happy, you want him to think about you? Yeah, I think that there's definitely a desire to appear humble in these small things she's asking for. But really asking anything of your ex like this is such a high expectation. Like asking your ex to think of you, I feel like is such a...

I don't want to say selfish position to take, but it's a very myopic position to take because it's still all about you and you want them to be thinking about you, even though they're no longer in a relationship with you. But you still think about them so much that they have to think about you. Right. And if not, then like here are all these things that need to remind you of me, like whenever you're happy. Daniel, do you honestly think that asking your exes for anything is unreasonable?

I don't think that it's unreasonable, especially if you like share a dog or share children or things like that. You got to ask for something. But I think that like. Imagine if you share children with your ex and you're like, I don't know, we're broken up. Uh-huh. Probably can't ask him for anything. New phone, who dis? Yeah. I mean, I think that.

Was I maybe a little flippant in saying that like, they don't owe you any like, sure. But also, no, I don't think that I owe my exes anything or they owe me anything because that's an expectation from someone who I no longer have that relationship with. And like expecting something from someone like that is really, it feels like to me that like, you're still, that they still owe you something at all. And once your relationship is over, like,

I don't really think that they do. And I mean, maybe this is saying more about me and my past relationships, but like all those like memories I might have of like how I did something not great or like, and so like, I want them to think about the good things versus the bad things. That's still me thinking about myself in this and not really thinking about them and like, Oh, I hope they're happy and that they moved on. And like, they don't think of me that often because like they found new things to think about that, like excite them and make them happy. Like,

That I feel like is really what I would want for an ex as opposed to like, oh, well, remember the good things of us. What do you think? I think we owe our exes privacy. I think that being in a romantic relationship is like very vulnerable. And I don't think like once you break up any relationship,

or confidences that were shared in that context should be broken. I don't think that you actually disagree with, I'm not accusing you. I think, I think that makes a lot of sense, but I think that like expecting an ex to read a letter of mine from three years ago is such a high expectation. And that feels selfish to me because it's about me and about like whether I am a

And apologizing for something or like just saying, hey, I loved this time in our lives and it meant so much to me. That's still me expecting them to give me something, even if it's not given to me specifically. It's me knowing that they're thinking about me, which is selfish, right?

Yeah. A friend of mine talks about this openly. He wrote a letter to an ex apologizing and his ex was like, please stop writing to me. I like don't want to hear from you even an apology. This is actually about you processing and I don't care. I,

I actually was recently having a conversation with a friend. We were like in an Uber going past a bar that I had met this ex at. And I was thinking about how our relationship had ended. And I kind of regretted how I handled things. Not that like I was a monster or anything. I just like wasn't the best at breaking up. And this was this was three years ago. And so I was talking to him about like, oh, I just like feel bad about how things ended. He was like,

would you ever just want to like want to message him that and tell him that? And part of me thought like, yeah, I, maybe I do owe him that because I feel bad. But as I was saying it, I was also like, I can't send that message because I don't know where he is with how he felt about me after things ended or anything. And that's my thoughts about how I feel about things ending is about me. And it might bring things up that he doesn't want.

I don't know. My ex asked to hang out. And then at the very end of our hangout was like, by the way, looking back, I really regret how I treated you. And I was like, I don't totally care anymore because I'm over this. But it's also nice to know.

I liked knowing that. And I think, I guess I think that it's about not expecting a reception, which is where I think Taylor Swift nails this. She says, right, looking back on all of that, it's nice to believe that when you think Tim McGraw, you think of me. And it ends with like her dropping off the letter and she doesn't know about his response. And so I think that

telling our exes we're sorry or, you know, reaching out to our exes, I don't think is wrong as long as we're not expecting then for them to be like, do you know what? I've been waiting for this. Thank you so much. Or a response at all, right? Any outreach, they're then allowed to put up a boundary. But I don't think reaching out in good faith is selfish or not, right? Like I think it

is lovely or can be lovely as long as you're not expecting anything specific back. And so I do love that Swift ends the song with dropping off the letter. It's like it's a wish. Yeah. And I guess it's it's kind of giving her closure for herself.

As opposed to like expecting that response as closure when like it's something you have to find for yourself. And so leaving that letter gives her that feeling without having to like get any response from him. And I'll be honest, I kind of like imagining that she leaves the letter on the doorstep and it just blows away. Absolutely. Or that he thinks it's junk mail. Mm hmm.

One of the things that is interesting about the song though, is that it's not a bad breakup, right? The summer ends and the context that you gave us, right? Like he went off to college, right? It's just timing and they couldn't stay together.

This reaching back out is really just about nostalgia, which is interesting because I do that with my friends all the time. This thing made me think of you. I will text you about it. And with exes, it takes on a different tenor because most relationships...

You're out of them a lot longer than you're in them, right? Like this was a summer romance. They have already been out of this relationship like 10 times as long as they were in it. And yet while you're in it, the person is often the most important thing to you in the world. And so reminding them or reminding yourself, oh, remember this thing mattered, makes sense to me, right? Like it's a way of honoring your past self, right?

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. It's not just like running away from whatever the past is or forgetting that it ever existed. It's saying like, oh, like you mattered to me. And here are the things that make me remember that you mattered to me and make me think fondly of us. And so I hope that you remember our happiness together because it meant that the happiness meant so much to me.

And with enough distance, even the annoying nights take on a lovely sheen. It becomes charming that the Chevy truck kept getting stuck. In the moment, it might have been funny and whatever, but it's mixed at best.

in the moment. And then years later, you're like, oh, my God, remember that night we got stuck. Yeah. You're imagining Taylor texting him 10 years later as her car stuck in the mud being like, LOL. Yeah. Just a photo of the car stuck and LOL. And that's like a great way to conjure that memory of, oh, gosh, this was us back then.

And I think what you're saying is that there's a pretty good chance that the ex gets that text and is like, I have no idea why you're sending me this. Yeah, for sure. Because like even just sending the text is the thing that like makes you feel good about that. Like, oh, I remember this thing. I'm sharing this with you. And if you receive it and also love it, then great. But like...

I feel good just having remembered that and wanted to share that feeling of goodness, of like remembering our happiness together. Daniel, are there any lyrics that specifically stood out to you? Yeah, I think the one that really hit me the most is Someday You'll Turn Your Radio On. I hope it takes you back to that place. Is when you think Tim, I hope you think my favorite song. Someday you'll turn your radio on.

I hope it takes you back to that place

Because I think song, it conjures memories so well. I mean, as I said earlier, it's the Madeline moment of like, oh, I didn't even know I had this memory until I heard this. And then all of a sudden that memory is still there. It's like how our senses conjure those memories without us even realizing it until we're in them. Like the smell of something or the taste of something or just the tinkle of a melody. You're just like, oh, right, right.

That happened. Wow. And this gets to the sweetness of the humility of the request, right? It's not, I'm going to send you a song. I'm going to, it's, I hope that someday you'll just randomly turn on the radio and a song will come on. And I hope that it takes you back to that place. It's the opposite of the lyric that trips me up, which is when you think happiness,

Think of my little black dress. Must have been a great black dress. It must have been. But this is actually hoping that the universe is going to be in on reminding you of me. I'm not going to be reminding you of me, but I hope that DJs on the radio do. But I am going to write a top hit that will follow you forever. And since I told you that I wrote it about you, you will always remember whenever you hear this song or you hear any song by Tim McGraw, that song.

I wrote this song about you specifically, ex-boyfriend. Yeah, but that's the power of Taylor Swift. Of course. Yes. No, I mean, it's not. If I were to do that, it would not make any impact. But for Taylor, it makes all the impact. OK, so our next segment is where are we landing on this song and our question? Yeah, I think I come down on really loving this song for being a confession song.

of what we all wish. This is what we all love about Taylor. She's telling us something specific about herself that we can all relate to. And it makes us feel less lonely because it's like, it's been three years since my ex too. And I still want them to think about me in a certain way. It's these things that we're kind of embarrassed of or ashamed of and therefore don't want to say out loud. And she says them out loud.

Right. Like that just gives us permission. I want even more of my for my exes. Right. Like I want to be the good guy and for them to be the bad guy every single time. And like, that's not fair. Guess what, Daniel? I did not behave perfectly in all of my relationships. So I'm not always the good guy, but could have fooled me. Thank you. So, yeah, I don't know it.

I think it did. It annoyed me sort of in the middle of listening to it over and over again. I was like, really, Taylor, are you allowed to put this letter on someone's house all these years later? And then I'm like, yeah, we're allowed to wish things.

Yeah, I think you've really brought me around on that too. Because I mean, as I've said earlier, I do think that it's kind of selfish to demand these things or want these things. But it's so human. And it's something that we all experience. And I mean, yeah, that's why Taylor's great. Because we all have our Tim McGraws. We all have our little black dresses and blue jeans that bring those memories back. And so...

It just makes sense. You would want people to remember the good things because that's what love is about is like remembering those things that like really make you feel. And I think that she grasps that and understands that like, that's what matters. It's not how you receive the letter. It's that I left the letter because that mattered to me and it brought back everything that I loved about us. Yeah. And,

She's not like blasting Tim McGraw at his window. She's not actually trying to control him. She's saying, I wish I wish I could control you. And don't we all wish that? Absolutely. OK, so every episode we are going to end with the same question. What is the song an anthem for?

Tim McGraw, what is the song an anthem for, Daniel? I think it's an anthem for memories. I think it's an anthem for remembering, for having those things that bring you back to that place, as she says. It's a song that kind of eulogizes their relationship in a really loving way. It's like an ode to their relationship. What about you? I think it's an anthem...

For like knowing that you feel too much. And that is the high school experience. Yeah. Right. Like I still have this letter. I still think of you all the time. And so I'm actually going to try to request something small of you. Like just think about me when you hear Tim McGraw. But also I secretly want you to think about me every time you feel happy. Yes.

Yeah. And I mean, the lyrics in the chorus are like these specific moments in their relationship of that Tim McGraw song or when we danced all night long, the moonlight on the lake. But then she gets to the happiness. Whenever you think happiness, think of me. She had to lead up to it. But like, that's really what everything before it was like heading toward. That's what she always wanted to say until she finally got there. Her

And that's what we all want. We want to live really large in the imagination of the people who matter to us. I feel like to this day, one of the questions that makes me feel the youngest and the most insecure is, do I matter to you as much as you matter to me? And the answer is always no.

Hey, I'm kidding. I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But that's why Taylor is so great. Right. She's saying I'm the one who always feels more. Listen to my music and I'll make you feel not alone. Yes, because we all feel that too much. Right. Like her. Right. Well, Daniel, thank you so much. Next week, we are going to ask a question of the song Love Story. Can't wait.

This was the very first episode of Let's Ask Taylor Swift. This was a Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production company. This episode was sponsored by the Fetzer Institute. I'm the executive producer and our producer is AJ Yaramaz with development support from Ariana Nettleman. This episode was edited and produced by Ariana Nettleman. And our music is original music by AJ Yaramaz.

and we are distributed by ACAST. We are a brand new show and we need your support so that we can keep making this. If you are enjoying it, please consider going to patreon.com slash let's ask Taylor Swift. Thanks to our wonderful team, Julia Argi, Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Casper Turk-Kyle, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, Matt Potts, and Stephanie Paulsell.

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