Special Edition: Dragons! with Hannah McGregor
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A gigantic dragon was tethered to the ground in front of them, barring access to four or five of the deepest vaults in the place. The beast's scales had turned pale and flaky during its long incarceration under the ground. Its eyes were milky pink. I'm Vanessa Zoltan. I'm Hannah McGregor. And this is a special episode of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.

Hannah McGregor, one of my all-time favorite humans, thank you for being here today. Thank you for inviting me. When I get an email that says, would you like to talk about dinosaurs and dragons and the relationship between dinosaurs and dragons, I say yes so fast my fingers catch fire. Yeah.

Like a dragon. Like a dragon. Hannah McGregor, co-host of Material Girls, co-host of Hot and Bothered with moi, and author of many things but the relevant book today, Clever Girl, Jurassic Park, in which you discuss the symbolism of dinosaurs in Jurassic Park as a metaphor for angry women.

One of the fun facts that you say in your book, which I think that this is true for all of the big deal dragons in Harry Potter also, is that all the dinosaurs are women. Correct. All the dragons are women too. That's so fun, which we're going to talk about more because there's a reason, in my opinion, why this is the case in the Harry Potter books. But before we jump in, I have so many questions for you. Everyone's going to

Every once in a while, we like to take a step back. We dropped a Witch Please episode in the feed on a special edition once about house elves. We've talked about Ron over the course of the books. We've talked about Hagrid over the course of the books. We like to see the books more holistically and sort of pick one thing and trace it throughout the books because the chapter by chapter method is wonderful and has its drawbacks. And so we like to have it both ways. And so today we are focusing on dragons throughout the seven books.

And really trying to dive deep into how do we want to think about dragons as represented in Harry Potter? What lessons do we want to pull from the representation of dragons in Harry Potter? And you're

I don't want to be bold, but you're a dragon expert. I'm certainly a dragon aficionado, though it's relatively recent in my life that it became something I knew about myself. Actually, I really vividly remember this conversation. It was like deep pandemic days. I was bubbling with my friends, Sanera and Dawn. So we were spending like a lot of time together because we were the only people we were allowed to see. And, you know...

You know, they were over at my place and we were scrolling through Netflix looking for something to watch. And Sanera pointed out something and said like, oh, you would like that. It's about dragons. And I was like, why would I like it? Because it's about dragons. And she was like, well, you love dragon media. And I was like, excuse me. No, I don't. And then she just started naming things with dragons in them. And I was like, oh.

Oh, oops. Yep. Sorry. I guess I do. So here's the thing. I don't. Oh, God. I love those. And it's a joke. Julia Argy, who you know, one of my very best friends in the world, she will recommend a romance book to me. And then she'll be like, oh, never mind. You won't like it. It has dragons. Okay. What's your problem with dragons?

with dragons, Vanessa? Nothing. I really do think your book has changed this for me because it's a lack of media literacy around dragons. I'm like, wait, now what's happening? I'm too stupid for dragons. I was not a dinosaur kid, a sci-fi kid, a fantasy kid. My family was super snobby about all of that. I'm so sorry. And so I'm like, I'm,

I survived. But I know it was close. And so here I am, 42, read your book and was like, dinosaurs are feminist. Yeah.

Okay, can you tell me about this, please? Tell me the central thesis of your book. Yeah, so the central thesis of Clever Girl is that Jurassic Park can be read, I mean, it's a classic sort of scientific overreach cautionary tale. But the way that the story is actually told makes it available for a reading as eyewitness.

I think, a pretty radical queer feminist narrative, both about the sort of constructedness of gender as a

a mechanism that the patriarchal techno-capitalist world uses to manage populations, and also about monstrous women and our capacity to sort of rise up against the systems that are built to manage us and devour literally everything.

the engineers of our imprisonment. Okay, now, on a very high level, please do a plot reading of those two theses. Yes. So what's really important, what a lot of folks forget about Jurassic Park is that the dinosaurs are all engineered to be female. Woo! Woo!

And that is something that we are told very early on while our scientist protagonists are learning about the park. And it's something that, you know, B.D. Wong informs us. We engineered all of the dinosaurs to be female.

And it's so that they will not be able to breed. There is no unsanctioned breeding on Jurassic Park. So they made all the dinosaurs female, and that is explicitly a population management tool. So when Jeff Goldblum says this kind of control is impossible, life, uh, finds a way, what he's referring to in part is the fact that this attempt to control breeding through the attempt to control animals

biological sex is ultimately a failure. So the dinosaurs do in fact figure out a way to adapt and breed. And that is one way in which they sort of burst out of their containment, right? So they literally burst out of the containment of gendered and sex binary based control. And there's a like really sort of hand wavy passing scientific explanation. They like

splice the dinosaur DNA with frog DNA in order to complete the DNA sequences. And there's kinds of frogs that can change sex in single-sex environments. Like, it's not a great explanation. I think what's more... In this otherwise flawlessly accurate...

But I think it's not an accident that they try to use gender as a mechanism for control because there is this sort of long cultural history of the attempt to use gender as a mechanism of control of populations. It's one of the major technologies of colonialism is like to impose binary genders on cultures that don't have binary genders as a way of controlling those cultures. And also...

The dinosaurs literally burst out of their containment. They tear down the gates that were built for them. They devour the men who think that they can control the dinosaurs through violence, through weaponry, right? If a man fires a gun at a dinosaur, chances are he's going to get eaten later on in the film. And importantly...

exclusively men are devoured by these female dinosaurs. And in a thrilling twist, the dinosaurs are still kind of the heroes of the movie. They're the scary thing, but also everybody's still like, man, dinosaurs are so cool. Like, I'm really scared of the fact that I'm going to get eaten by one, but like, we can all still agree dinosaurs are really cool, right? Like,

Like, there's this kind of like, they're terrifying and they're out of control. And ultimately, they win. The humans leave. Right. The humans leave the island and they leave the island to the dinosaurs who have broken down the fences and will now just...

breed in an unsanctioned way, which is like the narrative of every subsequent Jurassic Park movie is like, well, we really lost control of this situation. Okay, so I recently asked a scholar, did we invent dragons to

before we knew that dinosaurs existed? And the answer was yes, but no, right? Like, certainly Beowulf, which has a dragon, seriously predates any, like, modern sense of paleontology. There's evidence that people understood that dinosaurs existed. Yeah, people found those big, big lizard bones and were like,

And also, like, snakes are real, right? Like, and Komodo, like, lizards are real. You can see why people sort of, quote unquote, invented dragons. But then also, every once in a while, I'll hear a story when someone is like, I met someone who thought dragons were real. And I'm like, yeah, bar walls are real.

aren't they unicorns of the sea? It does not feel stupid to me to assume dragons are real. It really doesn't, Hannah. So many weirder things exist. Can I tell you? Okay. So one of my nibblings, she is deep into dragons and this is not because of me, but like I have obviously encouraged it. But it's not despite you. It's not despite me. She's like really into that. What's that dragon series for kids? Wings of Fire. She's loved dragons for a while and a

A couple of years ago, I spent a month in Bali with her and her parents. And she and I were chatting one day about the relationship between dragons and dinosaurs. Yes. And she was like, what's the difference between dragons and dinosaurs? And I said, well, dinosaurs were real and dragons were not. And she was like, dragons are real. And I was like, okay. Yeah.

How do I explain? Like, I think it's important that you understand the difference between a thing that we are fairly certain about based on ongoing scientific practice. We know that there were dinosaurs and the information we have about them is constantly being updated as the methods of a scientific field develop. And then we've got this sort of

cultural narrative, which is dragons, which is real in its own way. Because there's a long history of myth and narrative surrounding dragons, and they mean a lot of things, and that is also real, but different real. Different.

That's me attempting to explain reality to an eight-year-old. And them actually teaching you what reality is. Yeah, they're just like, sorry, dragons are real. And I'm like, at the end of the day, I'm not going to fight you on that one. You're like, I'm not going to be the person who takes that away from you. That is not how I want to be remembered in your heart. And I like your version of the world more. It's more fun there. But there's some

Yeah.

Right? Like, it's just amazing. Yeah. And then we attach very, very similar narrative meaning to them. Okay, so what is the narrative meaning that we attach to them? And then, everyone, I promise we're going to look at dragons in Harry Potter. I think one of the core narrative meanings attached to dragons

dragons first and then dinosaurs by extension is chaos. Dragons and giant serpents are historically strongly aligned with narrative myths. Like there's a dragon goddess Tiamat at the center of the Babylonian creation myth. And what she represents is like chaos in the sense of prehistoric

pre-creation undivided existence so like the stuff of the world but not yet ordered into such a way that you've got like the sky and the earth yeah so then a hero needs to come along and generally do something quite violent to this dragon in order to create order and

and society. So we get, you know, I think Urduk, maybe? But don't quote me on that. But there's like a, you know, a Babylonian hero who slays Tiamat and literally like rips her body apart to make the world. But then we get like St. George and the slaying of the dragon and the founding of Christendom in the UK. And it's this similar pattern of like... And dragons in the Book of Revelation. Yes, 100%, right? They are chaos and...

and they must be destroyed for order to exist. So then we get that sort of narrative layered over dinosaurs as well, right? Both in the sense of like,

The era when dinosaurs ruled the Earth was an era of chaos. And they needed to, you know, be killed by evolution for the order of humanity to come along, which is itself a sort of narrativization of evolution because evolution is not like progressing in the direction of something. It's just doing a whole bunch of totally random stuff. It's doing a bit. It's just doing totally random stuff all the time. We're an absolute accident.

You know, that kind of narrative gets layered onto science in a way that has a lot more to do with the sort of chaos versus order, dragon versus dude in a suit of armor narrative. And like sailor versus the sea. Yes. Right. I think is very similar. And man versus woman, because that's how that gets gendered as well.

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So I am going to be your favorite student and a really good podcaster in Segway S. Because if dragons in the Harry Potter books symbolize chaos, we have this incredible character of Hagrid. And we also have Charlie Weasley, right? We have these lovers of dragons and like wranglers of dragons. We talk about Hagrid.

Hagrid as the patron saint of transitions. And most of the dragon characters in Harry Potter are women. In fact, that is intentionally done in book four. The female dragons are going to protect their eggs and that is going to test whether these students are like really good at stealing an egg. They're good at stealing from women. Children from women because moms get mad when you try to kidnap their babies.

When Hagrid talks about his relationship to Norberta, he says, come to mummy, right? He gets feminized. What do you make of all that? Wait, am I your favorite student? Yes, A+, you're a fabulous student. You noticed exactly what I noticed. So, intriguingly, Hagrid does in fact get the sex of Norberta wrong. Right. She is a girl dragon. The only...

I can think of narratively for that to be the case is a sort of supporting of one, the association of dragons with the sort of, you know, feminized chaos, but also a supporting of the way that dragons represent this kind of disorganized

ordered chaotic force. So the fact that Hagrid identifies, like, it's not that he is gendered, it's that he genders himself. Hagrid says he knows his mummy. Oh my God, he knows his mummy. Bless him. Look, he knows his mummy. Bless him. Look, he knows his mummy. The first thing he says is, isn't he beautiful? And there's a real sense that, like, to Hagrid,

The he-ness or she-ness of Norbert is irrelevant. Hagrid is just in awe of this fantastical creature who he has, like, had the honor of

midwifing through the process of being hatched. Hagrid's gender play in this moment, I think, really drives home this idea of dragons as breeding chaos, breeding instability, at the same time that they are, like, constantly aligned with this sort of feminized version of, like, danger and the wild and the uncontrollable. It's so appropriate that Hagrid is this constant sort of

liminal threshold crossing key bearing transitional figure because he is the one who like constantly almost every time with the exclusion of that dragon and green gods but he is almost always the figure that is bringing dragons in and out of the wizarding world and

I would like to offer that he's kind of in the Gringotts one too, because he was there when we first went to Gringotts. Oh yeah, of course. He's the first person who brings Harry down into the vault. So...

He's introduced us to the idea of the dragon in Gringotts also. Okay, so I'm going to read you the quote about baby Norberta's birth. Let's do a close reading of it. All at once, there was a scraping noise and the eggs split open. The baby dragon flopped onto the table. It wasn't exactly pretty. Harry thought it looked like a crumpled black umbrella.

Its spiny wings were huge compared to its skinny jet body. It had a long snout with wide nostrils, the stubs of horns, and bulging orange eyes.

It sneezed. A couple of sparks flew out of its snout. Isn't he beautiful? Hagrid murmured. Reach out a hand to stroke the dragon's head. It snapped at his fingers, showing pointed fangs. Bless him, look. He knows his mommy. And it's later in the scene where we're like, he lives in a wood house! Yeah, absolutely.

He lives in a wood house, and he regularly lives with creatures that, in theory, would be able to destroy this house. But the one time we see Hagrid's house on fire, it sure is done by wizards. Yeah, none of these creatures set the house on fire. No! And in general, there's a sense throughout the series that people are often rolling their eyes at Hagrid for being sort of unwise in the way that he relates to dangerous magical creatures. Right.

but he's also consistently right. The dangerous magical creatures that people are like, it's absolutely wild that he is teaching kids how to take care of Thestrals. Can you believe it? And then it's like, well, they need those Thestrals to get to the ministry. Like, narratively, Hagrid's love for these creatures is constantly reinforced. Like,

like, at the level of the function that they end up playing. Dragons are dangerous, and it's foolish to have anything to do with them, and they are absolutely foundational to the survival of our three protagonists in the final book. Like, Hagrid's always right when it comes to the importance of seeing these creatures as deserving of life and care, even though they are also legit dangerous. And he, you know, he knows that. He just doesn't, he just doesn't care. Like,

He recognizes their danger as part of the joy of interacting with them, which is right there in that beautiful reversal of like Harry describes how not beautiful the dragon is. Hagrid immediately says, isn't he beautiful? And then Harry describes the dragon doing something dangerous and violent.

And Hagrid immediately interprets that as a sign of love and affection. And that reversal is like on a surface level, silly. On a surface level, it's like, oh, Hagrid, he doesn't understand. And on a deeper level, ultimately reinforced by the narrative.

A sign of Hagrid's greater insight into the beauty and capacity for care of these dangerous creatures. And I feel like this is said in a lot of, like, memes that I get fed on Instagram and it emotionally, spiritually feels true. But, like, the most dangerous creature to humanity is Hagrid.

humanity yeah oh yeah yeah yeah nothing other things will eat us but we're the only ones who are destroying the planet that is the only planet in existence that can support human life or any life so but i guess i also mean like obviously mosquitoes have killed a lot of people yeah but there was that like meme a couple of years ago where they like did a poll and it was like would you rather be stuck in the woods with a man or a bear and women were like bear for sure yeah

And I don't know if that was a scientific survey or if that was just, you know, I don't know how accurate that is. I know I would rather be stuck with a bear. With some context, right? Yeah, right. Hashtag not all men. Totally. If I know the man, maybe I'd prefer him. But it's random man, random bear. Going with random bear. In the U.S., especially in Canada, I might feel different.

differently. Yeah. Because a lot of men here have guns. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our men don't have guns, but... Your men don't have guns. They've got knives. Rage. They've got rage. And of course, not all men. Of course, of course. But this sense that...

We have decided that the scary thing is dragons. The scary thing is immigrants. The scary thing is transness, right? Whatever it is, when really like the scariest thing is domestic violence at home, right? Like if you actually look closely, I think is so beautifully rendered in these books where

You're constantly being told, oh my God, it's a dragon. We have to help Norbert escape when really it is a white man who is in the bowels of the school trying to destroy everything. Yeah.

Who also, like, almost always the terrible man or woman. There are some terrible women in this series, too. And white women can also be nightmares. But, like, almost always the person who ends up being the real person we need to watch out for is somebody who is in a position of power and authority. Right. There's a pretty clear through line here. This idea of dragons as...

a threat. They are established based on their threat level. They have a rating system for magical creatures in the Wizarding World. Dragons are the highest danger rating. Like, they'll totally eat you. Watch out for these. And they will totally eat you. That is the official way we talk about it. They will totally eat you. They will totally eat you. And we don't watch anybody get eaten by a dragon in this series. But like,

We can easily picture one chomping a lawyer off a toilet like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park. They would not hesitate to fully eat you. That is not the grounds upon which they are sort of redeemed within the narrative, right? Like they're dangerous. It's never like, you're wrong. They're not really dangerous. No, they are. They are for sure. They're not the ones who are trying to kill Harry. They're not the ones who are trying to kill Harry. In fact,

They don't have malevolent motivations, which I think is really key. Anytime we encounter a dragon, it's because a human has artificially forced that dragon into proximity with other humans in a way that that dragon is clearly not excited about.

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Well, let's look at another one because you brought more than one example, and I think we have time for one more. And I am going to read to you a dragon moment. Four fully grown, enormous, vicious-looking dragons were rearing on their hind legs inside an enclosure fenced with thick planks of wood, roaring and snorting,

Torrents of fire were shooting into the dark sky from their open, fanged mouths. Fifty feet above the ground on their outstretched necks. Mesmerized, Harry looked up.

Mm.

Oh my god, it's so sad. It's so sad. Justice for dragons. This is the scene where Hagrid sneaks Harry to go see the dragons to give him like a scoop on what one of the tasks in the Triwizard Tournament will be. And rereading this, I found this description.

so fascinating because on the one hand, we've got strong evocation of the dragon as Satan history, right? It's evil. Like the word evil is used. They are vicious. They are monstrous. They are inhuman and malevolent. And then

In the process of actually looking in this dragon's eyes, Harry can't tell if it's angry or terrified. Those two emotions go together all the time, Harry. Yeah. And in that moment, we're reminded really viscerally of like the animality of this dragon.

Right. Which is where I think sort of, again, dragons and dinosaurs walk this really interesting line. Is this a monster or is it an animal? Because if it's an animal, it can be understood. And we maybe have an obligation to like an ethics of how we treat it. Whereas if it's a monster, you can justify doing anything to it because the monster exists only to be destroyed or, or cast out. Yeah. Right. Uh,

And again, like what is dangerous here is the humans, right? Yeah. They're doing this to these dragons. They're doing this to these dragons in order to do this to these children tomorrow. Yeah. Right? For entertainment. Yeah. In the name of some kind of international diplomacy. Yeah. They're using these dragons to hunger games these kids. Right. And like, again, like you go and I feel like we do this all the time. You show up and you're like, oh my God, the dragons are scary. And

And you're like, oh, wait, it's the wood planks around the dragons that are actually making this scary. Yeah. The wood planks and the dozens of wizards who are all casting spells on the dragons and the chains holding them down. And the fact that they are going to or have already stolen these dragons' eggs. Yeah. Because that is part of how the task operates is like,

You have to get an egg out of their nest. Nest. So it's like they are terrified because they have been kidnapped and their eggs stolen from them. Like, yeah, actually kill these wizards. Yeah, and now we're being jailed and brought to Scotland where it's cold. And wet. Okay, Hannah, we have to wrap up.

Final lesson for the people. If you had to say when you see a dragon in art, this is a question that I want you to hold. This is a thought I would like for you to carry with you. What is it? Yeah, I would say ask what that dragon is telling you about you.

the use of gender as a managing or organizing system in whatever world, real or fantastical, you are encountering. Because where you see a dragon, you're probably seeing some kind of argument about gender and power. Ugh.

Amazing. Okay, everybody go read Clever Girl, Jurassic Park by Hannah McGregor. Rewatch Jurassic Park and reread the Harry Potter books with your mind blown. Everybody get into dragons. Just a few reminders before we give our thanks. You can find ad-free episodes on Apple Podcasts or through our Patreon at patreon.com slash Harry Potter's Sacred Text.

And you can find out about our programming at NotSorryWorks.com. This was a Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production company. We are sponsored by the Fetzer Institute, and I'm the executive producer. This episode was edited by McCall Kimball and produced by AJ Yaramaz. Our music is by Ivan Paisao and Nick Bull, and we are distributed by ACAST.

Thank you so much to our Minerva's Book Club, Averill, Amanda C., Amanda S., Amber, Amy, Ashley, Danny, Emile, Esther, Gregoire, Casey, Kelsey, Kreeti, Kyle, Marina, Nadia, and Sita. And to our team, Ariana Nettleman, Julia Argi, Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Matt Potts, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, and Stephanie Paulsell. And a huge thanks to the wonderful Hannah McGregor for joining us this week.

Do you see this? Like, obviously, that's all dinosaurs and that's a dinosaur. But this purple thing you see in the background is a pair of custom dragon wings that a friend made for me. Not for my 40th, for my tenure party. Do you see that this is a dinosaur sheet? Oh my God, I don't, but I'm delighted. It's dinosaurs. That rules. Great job.

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