Special Edition: The Marauders!
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ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, purveyors of aids to magical mischief makers, are proud to present The Marauder's Map. I'm Vanessa Zoltan. I'm Jackson Bird. And this is a special episode of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.

As always, everyone, you can hear ad-free versions of this episode through Apple Podcasts or by subscribing to our Patreon, where we will have a bonus conversation for you today. But Jackson, thank you for coming. Every once in a while, we like to take a step back from the

from these books. I think we look very closely at them and every once in a while, I think it's healthy to sort of reflect, you know? And we asked you if there was something within these books that you like to step back and reflect on and you answered that it was the Marauders. And so I'm wondering if you could just tell us why, why is this something that you are interested in thinking about in terms of the Harry Potter series?

Yeah, well, thanks for having me on this special episode. The Marauders have just always been my favorite part of the book series. Like, hands down, they're my favorite part of the book series.

their dynamic between the four of them and just sort of the way that like they are very much the prequel that we get hints of. And yeah, I have always loved the Marauders. I got into fan fiction initially because of the Marauders. That's like how I discovered fan fiction existed. So I think through that too, they became like sort of outside of the text. It was like a very personal thing for me for years. But even, you know, inside of the text, like,

The quote that you just read at the top, you know, what's written on the Marauder's Map, the magical mischief makers. You know, I think when I read the first two books, some of my favorite characters were Fred and George. Like, they're just fun having the pranksters. I always wanted to be, like, more of a prankster and a class clown. And then we get to Prisoner of Azkaban, and we learn about, like, oh, the pranksters who came before them, who were even greater. And then as the books go on, you realize this deep connection that they had to Harry and to each other and to the overall story. And so there's just, like, storylines

so much there. And I feel like we got a good amount, but there's just so much that we never got to. And I think that's why they remain one of the most popular like topics of fan fiction and fan art for Harry Potter. I even saw like a Tumblr stat recently. Tumblr, like the actual platform has this thing they publish every week where they rank like all the like fandoms, like books, movies and ships and their popularity week by week on Tumblr.

And it's usually things that are very current and happening right now. But Sirius and Remus as a ship is still on there in like the top 10 week after week. And that is wild to me. Yeah, that is a full 20 years. Yeah. After the release. That is... 20 years after the release of the movie, I think the book was even longer. I don't know time, Jackson, but oh my God, that is wild. Can I just... I need to brag about this because it like...

left my brain and was in the deep recesses of my mind, but you pulled out a memory for the superlative in elementary school. So graduating in fifth grade, I got voted class clown. Wow. And I was very proud. And then when I got called up to the front, the principal said, for the first time in Meadow Oaks history, a girl has been voted class clown. And I was like, you just, I don't, it made me so proud.

Mad. Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, you just brought that memory up. Yeah. No, I mean, that's one of those things like with all of these firsts that happen where it's like, OK, I'm really glad it has. But like, why has it not before this? That one's wild. Funny.

Although, are they in the Harry Potter books? I think all the funny and like mischief-making characters. Well, we get Tonks later. Tonks. And I think that's actually one reason Tonks and then Ginny like coming into her own confidence were such a revelation. So it was like, you know, yeah. Yeah, finally, women with a sense of humor. Anyway, yeah, I also obviously love the Marauders. And I think that, yeah, we maybe feel toward the Marauders the way we feel toward like

cool uncles, which is the role that they play in Harry's lives, where you're like, no matter how long you know them, you're going to be like, wait, what? You drove this car all the way to Woodside? Right? Like, there's just like always things about them that you don't know. And they're just like people who you only knew when they were adults, but they knew you when you were a child. The way that their past lives sort of feel inaccessible to you shrouds them in mystery. And so, yeah, of course we're

interested in these four men. And then these four men, like there's a lot happening in these dynamics. Yeah.

Yeah, and a lot of it is just drenched in tragedy as well. Like the main highlights of what we know of what happened that night when Voldemort killed Lily and James and the aftermath from that is just so tragic to think about as well. And I think that's part of what piques the curiosity and what I think maybe makes people interested in imagining them when they were at Hogwarts, when things were still tough and things were certainly starting to get more and more difficult. But...

It's a time to, one, imagine these characters that we know through a lens of tragedy in a happier period of time. And because Harry, Ron, and Hermione's experience at Hogwarts is not a normal one, it's sort of a chance to imagine a more ordinary Hogwarts experience as well, which I think is part of what appeals to people. The other thing is just that this is a group of four that became a group of four for such a beautiful reason, right? Like, Lupin was...

isolated and didn't know how to handle being a werewolf. And so this is about three other friends taking great pains to be supportive of their friend. And I think that there's just something really beautiful about imagining that amount of loyalty. It's like a heroic amount of loyalty and creativity, right? Like they aren't letting the bounds of biology contain their love for one another. And so like, of course we adore them. Yeah. Yeah.

So, we thought it would be fun to just talk about some highlight moments of the Marauders. Not necessarily moments that are joyful, but important moments. And my favorite moment of the whole series is one in which three of the four Marauders show up, and that is at the end

of book seven in the chapter forest again, when Harry realizes that the snitch holds the resurrection stone and whispers to this stone, I'm about to die. And who comes out of the resurrection stone for him is

is his mom. And then obviously James as his dad, but also James is one of the three marauders to me because the other people there are Sirius and Lupin. It's three of the four marauders who show up for Harry in this moment of despair. And I'm wondering what you make of that in terms of them being the marauders.

Yeah, it is such a powerful moment. I love that we're kind of going like backwards to in the timeline and setting it up here at the very end. I think for me, it's just a really big indication of the found family element. You know, you were just talking about like that.

heroic level of loyalty. And I think even if they hadn't gone through all of that tragedy as young adults, they probably still would have stuck together and had that sort of found family element. You know, we saw in some like tiny flashbacks to Harry as a baby, how they were all there helping raise him then. And to the extent that they've been able to, Sirius and Lupin stepped in when Harry was a teenager as well to be those father figures. So in a sense, like,

he spent more time with Sirius and Lupin than he did with his parents. And so if he's going to have like his parents come out of the resurrection stone, it makes a lot of sense to me that it includes the two of them. And there is just a fantasy element of like, that is the relationship that you want your kids to have with your best friends. You know, I've had the same best friend since I was five years old.

And I got a FaceTime call from her and it was actually her son calling to play the piano for me. He had just learned a new piece. And she was in the kitchen and she came out to the living room because she heard my voice and was like, what's happening? And she teared up. She was like, he called you? You know, and it was like, that's what you want, right? Is for your best friends to be adults in your kids' lives. And it was just like,

Such a special moment to me, right? When you can love each other's kids. I don't know. I'm not saying anything revelatory here, but I do think that that is... I can't imagine how much it would have meant to Lily and James that Sirius and Lupin were there for Harry. Yeah, absolutely. You know, my parents are both immigrants, and so I never knew...

of theirs who knew them when they were young. I mean, only once a friend of my dad's happened to be in Los Angeles who like really grew up with my dad. They lived in the same apartment building and they would

steal air from tires of cars to fill their soccer ball, right? Like this was like the person who he was mischievous with as a kid. And like, it was so fun to see my dad through that lens, right? To see your parents through the eyes of a childhood friend is just sort of mind bending in a fun way. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm thinking about that because my parents met when they were in high school and most of my mom's siblings also like married people they met in high school. And so a lot of our family gatherings are like high school reunions or younger. And so getting a lot of those elements of like these funny stories. But that also plays into the cool uncle thing that you were saying. Like these are the same people that I was thinking of when you were describing the cool uncles. Yeah. Because I think that's one element of the cool uncle is like,

oh, they did all these things. Like, you know, one of my uncles wrote for Rolling Stone and that's super cool. That's very like serious black kind of stuff. Yeah. And he can tell me embarrassing stories about my parents from when they were little. Like that adds to the cool uncle mystique. Absolutely. And I love, for those of us who didn't have cool uncles, but had very boring uncles who one of my uncles sold glue. Yeah, the Marauders, you know, aren't exciting places.

place to imagine that. Well, and I think you used the word fantasy at one point in talking about this is the fantasy of what you hope your kids have a relationship with your best friends. And I think fantasy is an important word because I mean, that's beautiful that that's happening in your life. But I don't think it is the reality for so many people. It's pretty rare. And so also like the cool uncle to this extent or a found family, this, you know, all of that is

quite rare. And I think that is another reason why the Marauders resonate with people, because it is that kind of relationship that you would love to have in all of those different dynamic ways. Yeah. This week's episode of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text is brought to you by HelloFresh. HelloFresh is where you get farm fresh, pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. I don't know about you, but I get tired of just figuring out what's for dinner night after

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Quantum Fiber, your world unleashed. Learn more at quantumfiber.com. Limited availability, service in select locations only. Thank you for looking at my favorite Marauders moment, but is there

a place where you want to look in order to think through these characters? Well, I think especially with what we were just talking about of how one of the appealing things of the, I'm now going to call it the cool uncle trope, is getting to hear those stories about your parents. One thing that's always frustrating to me, and I guess I understand why it happened, but I was always frustrated in Prisoner of Azkaban that Harry and Lupin spend so much time together. Lupin

Lupin's trying to teach Harry how to make a Patronus, and he's just helping him out when Harry gets left behind, not going to Hogsmeade. He's stepping in and doing all of the actions that you would expect him to for everything we just said of being that sort of father figure after Harry lost James. But he doesn't tell Harry about his relationship to James, and I'm like...

That is, I think, what Harry would have valued even more is like knowing that you knew him, knowing you were so close to him and getting to hear all of those stories that then like ultimately because, you know, then Lupin does pass away in Deathly Hallows. Like, I don't think Harry ever does get to hear a lot of those stories. Yeah. You can imagine that Lupin had such good intentions, right? Of like...

Being like, I'm his teacher. I don't want to, you know, give him preferential treatment, whatever. But yeah, those stories when someone has passed away, like how thirsty you are for like any information. I mean, Lupin, I would argue as far as a relationship with Harry is actually the most complicated, right? Like Lupin is the one who Harry yells at the most or right? Like,

that Harry's relationship with Sirius is as a surrogate father, as if Harry's a young kid, right? Like he just worships Sirius. And because he doesn't remember James, he gets to mostly just worship James. But I, yeah, he just spends the most time with Lupin. So they have,

Yeah, the most complicated relationship. Yeah, they have kind of a real relationship. Whereas, yeah, like you said, he idolizes Sirius. And I think the Sirius thing is a little bit more simple, too, where it's like Sirius is treating Harry as if he's his best friend. Harry is treating Sirius like he's a god. Right.

With Lupin, it's like he was his teacher first. That's how he got to know him. And they do spend all of this more complicated time together where they get to know each other in the same way that if Harry were lucky enough to have had that time in those types of situations with Sirius and James, I think it would have ultimately been similar. Though at the same time, I think Lupin being that more intellectual kind of guy is maybe also just more complicated.

I think Sirius is a little bit more of a straightforward type of person. And Lupin is maybe more paradoxical in some of his ways. And we definitely see that as the series goes on, especially in like the sixth and seventh books when, you know, Lupin falls in love with Tonks.

And I think you had mentioned a moment with Teddy that really stood out to you. Yeah, I love this instinct that we have as humans that like good news in particular feels like something that we have to share together.

immediately. I think when we get bad news, sometimes we turn inward. But good news, I find really makes people want to turn outwards. And it's almost as if things aren't real until you share them. And we see that instinct in Lupin that he has obviously had very mixed feelings about becoming a father, but he just became a father and he immediately has to go and tell someone that

And you just realize the depths of his loss that he doesn't have anyone of his own generation to go and tell. And so he goes and tells Harry, Ron, and Hermione, right? And Bill and Fleur. And, you know, it turns out Luna's there. But they are so family at this point through this connection to Lily and James that when he has that human instinctive connection in the face of good news...

He has these surrogate friends. And I think that it's actually a sign of like deep intimacy that he's

Even though, like, Lupin, Ron, Harry, and Hermione aren't friends. There's just this, like, but I need you to know, right? And I mean, part of it is obviously that he asks Harry to be the godfather, which is its own beautiful thing. But yeah, the, like, the acknowledgement of the circular nature of generational friendships, right? I don't know. It always astounds me when...

I am now friends with certain people who are like now adults who I knew when I was adult and they were a kid. And like allowing them to sort of become an adult to you, I think is a really fun thing.

Anyway, I'm babbling, but it's beautiful. It is beautiful, and it's so rare for us to get those moments of pure joy from the Marauders. Although I guess this one isn't completely pure joy because of the ways that we said there's undergirding there. One thing that stood out to me when you were saying that, though, is that he has no one else in his generation to tell. And...

I was thinking of that for the other side of this moment, which is when they first found out they were going to have Teddy. And Lupin runs away to try to join Ron, Harry, and Hermione on their mission. And I think a lot of this is just like a dad freaking out moment and also like a dad who was so concerned that he should never be in this relationship. He should never have children for, you know, reasons that in his mind and for what society tells him, like, that is an understandable anxiety to have. But he's

He runs away to Ron, Harry, and Hermione almost like wanting to have a little piece of the Marauders again. Like he doesn't have those friends to run to. So he runs to his former students. Yep. It's a very messy, messy moment for him, but like understandable how he got there. Yeah, absolutely. Anytime that teachers start relying on students, I always just get worried. But yes, these aren't just students. These are also like...

yeah, very much understandably mirrors of his relationship.

Should we talk briefly about the Peter Pettigrew of it all? The like missing marauder? Right, yeah. The elephant in the room that we haven't discussed. Yeah. It's just interesting, right? Like he's the marauder who doesn't show up for Harry at the end. But this actually kind of does feel true to life. Not that there's one person in a group of friends who turns in the other friends to a mass murderer and then whose like hand self-strangles.

But that there's like grief and anxiety around a person who you're like no longer in touch with. There's like the awkward person in the wedding photo. The person who the fact that they were at that party now means that you can't only remember that party fondly. And so even this just like does feel beautifully awkward.

exemplary of these sorts of families and found families. Yeah, like in a way, if we take away the more serious like betrayal elements of it all, like in a way it is the most realistic part of the Marauders to have the one friend from your close high school group who went down a different path and like is not still part of the group like the rest of you keep in touch and that one doesn't.

Right. They dated someone who's still in the group and you all sided with one of them and not the other, whatever it is. But Peter Pettigrew stipulated it was an extreme version of this. Yes. Yes.

I think Peter Pettigrew is a great example and also some of the complicated things we were discussing with Lupin of just how the Marauders are so complicated. I think it's a tendency of fans like myself to really view them through rose-colored glasses and all the parts of them that we like, but they are not faultless. The biggest thing that...

comes to mind for me is the biggest chunk of time that we actually get to see them like on the page together, which is Snape's worst memory. And sure, we are seeing it from his perspective, but like that is an instance of really like horrific bullying. That and then I don't think it's represented there, but when we find out about trying to like trick

to going into the shrieking shack when Lupin is in there transformed. And of course, James comes in and saves him last minute when he realizes what Sirius has done and went too far. But like, those are a few instances, just the only instances we saw of bullying that went to the extreme. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that is, I think, one of the downsides of that kind of loyalty is that you can stop looking at each other critically. And, you know, something that Matt and I have been talking about a lot is like when to listen to your cheerleaders and when to listen to your critics and sort of like disregarding the outliers, but listening to something down the middle, you know, whatever. But we do need people to reflect things back to us to correct our missteps.

And these four boys just adore each other so much that they just keep egging each other on. And this is a kind of loyalty on a like...

soul level where it's like, even when I think you are doing wrong, I am going to back you up and like not even tell you, right, that I think you're doing wrong. I think that, yeah, you absolutely see the toxic nature of this kind of intimacy. And I think a loyalty to the cause too, like that's sort of what's pushing them against Snape is like he was...

espousing extremist views as a student. And like James was just raised in a family where he knew that was wrong and was not going to accept any of that. And then Sirius was doing his own unpacking of those same views. And so for him, it was a lot more personal. So again, that sort of explains where they were coming from. But in egging each other on, you do get into sort of that toxic realm. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's something that I know I struggle with as a friend, right? Like, when do I just support my friend? And when do I say, oh, I think we're going too far, right? Like, what is your role as a friend? Right. The times where it's like, I don't think you actually were in the right in the story that you're recounting. But how do, is this a time where I need to tell you that? Or is this a time where I should just be like, yeah, totally. On your side. Yeah.

Jackson, thank you so much. This is not a topic that it would have occurred to me to like take a step back on. And I'm, I'm really grateful. I think that, yeah, the Marauders are up to a lot of interesting things and a lot of things that really do map onto our own lives.

And so thank you so much for coming on and talking to me about them. Yeah, thank you for having me. And on the flip side, it is the only topic I could think of to zoom out to because that is... Because you are like Tumblr. Yeah, I'm more of a fan of the Marauders than of the Harry Potter books. So thank you for coming on to let me talk about my favorite thing. That's how I feel about Hermione. So I'm with you. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

This was a Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production company. You can always listen to ad-free episodes on Apple Podcasts or through our Patreon. We are sponsored by the Fetzer Institute. I'm the executive producer, and we are edited and produced by AJ Ramas. Our music is by Ivan Paizao and Nick Bull, and we are distributed by ACAST.

Thanks, as always, to our wonderful team, Arianna Nettleman, Julia Argi, Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Matt Potts, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, Stephanie Paulsell, and a big thanks to Jackson Bird. Thanks, everyone. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.

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With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping, you get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start shopping at thrivemarket.com slash podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift.

When you need mealtime inspiration, it's worth shopping fries for thousands of appetizing ingredients that inspire countless mouth-watering meals. And no matter what tasty choice you make, you'll enjoy our everyday low prices. Plus, extra ways to save, like digital coupons worth over $600 each week and up to $1 off per gallon at the pump with points. So you can get big flavors and big savings. Fries, fresh for everyone. Fuel restrictions apply.

You're free now. Free to fill your feed with impossibly chonky chonkers who chonk harder than you ever thought possible. Cats, corgis, babies, baby penguins, baby pandas, chunky baby pandas. Free to make your smart devices do silly things. Free to open a world of remote work and a portal into gametopia. Who's the boss now? Free to be everything you imagine and then some. That's how it feels to have Quantum Fiber Internet.

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