The Real Question: Should I Take an Art Class in 2025? (with Vanessa Zoltan)
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Hi, everybody. You are getting a bonus episode today, and that is because I want to tell you that The Real Question, which is a podcast that Casper, Ariana, and I started almost five years ago now, has recently switched hosts. I have been the host of The Real Question, asking the question, should I quit, with people for the last several years. But now I've handed over the reins to the wonderful Mauricio Bruce. I'm so excited to be here with you.

Mauricio and I have been friends for over 20 years, and even more important than the fact that he is handsome and has a guest room at his place in Costa Rica for me, he is a brilliant therapist and chaplain, and it's been an honor to listen to him taking over the feed. And so if you haven't been listening to The Real Question because you're like, Vanessa's voice is annoying, I have good news for you. There is a man hosting it now.

And you don't even have to subscribe to be seduced into listening because we are going to play an episode right here for you today. And then you should subscribe because you'll love it. I had the honor of being Mauricio's first guest on his season of The Real Question, where he is inviting guests on to ask should I questions. I asked whether or not I should start an art class.

I know you are on the edge of your seat with this very high stakes question, but don't worry, stay tuned and you'll get the answer. I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a Sleep Number smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes, but after literally one night in my Sleep Number smart bed, my body feels restored, rested, and relaxed.

The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night is worth it alone. Not to mention, my husband and I never need to argue over firmness because we can each dial in our own sleep number setting. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now, for a limited time, Sleep Number Smart Beds start at $849.

Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Live from the internet's red carpet, it's Vrbo's 2025 Vacation Rentals of the Year. Selected from over 2 million private vacation rentals, this year's list features the best of Vrbo. And with weekly discounts on select stays, they might be more affordable than you think. See the list at verbo.com and make it a Vrbo.

Vanessa, it's our flagship program launch for What Matters. And this year you've chosen some fabulous books. Tell us more about the program. Yes. So What Matters is a 28 week intensive cohort based class that is all based around sacred reading. This year we have picked three incredible novels to do our sacred reading with.

The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler, Station Eleven by Emily St. Mandel, and Women Talking by Miriam Taves. Wow. And we are going to be talking about the theme of identity. And this class is just, Casper, it's one of the things I'm most proud of having co-designed.

You know, we do sacred reading with me and then Mauricio Bruce does analysis and self-exploration based on the books and then one-on-one chaplaincy with everyone. And then we end with Michaela Bly helping everybody turn this into a story that they can tell so that there's like something really finite that they can take out as the lesson that they want to remember from the class.

And the class is all about using these, you know, spiritual technologies that we know work really well. Sacred reading, community, one-on-one chaplaincy, and storytelling in order to discern how you want to live your life and what values you want to live up to. And the

that I'm proudest of is just how many people come back and do it again. Like we have three people out of 24 who just finished it and immediately signed up to do it again this year. Whoa. Yeah. That's awesome. It's a little bit like a sort of secular seminary. Right. And you can find it at not sorry works.com. The first class kicks off on August 20th. There are payment plans available. So definitely check this out. It's really worth your time.

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Hi, Vanessa. Hi, Mauricio. Welcome to the show. It's weird to be sitting on this side of the couch, you know? It's weird to be sitting on this side of the couch. I don't really care about how you feel. This episode's about me. Okay. Well, I guess we've established that, so thank you. I'm so proud that you're taking over the real question. I love this show so much, and I'm just really excited that people are going to get you.

You think they'll get me? I think that they're going to get more of you. Not that they're going to get you. I think your humor makes you ungettable, you know? It's my best trait. Nope. I love you despite it. Okay. Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm really excited to have you here. And I'm really curious, what question are you bringing to the show? Because you haven't told me yet. Yeah. So I want to know if I should start a weekly class.

Specifically, a weekly art class, drawing class, drawing, painting. Okay. A weekly drawing and painting or a drawing or a painting? Drawing or painting. Okay. So some kind of art class. You haven't decided which one yet. Yeah. I mean, it would really just depend on what was available. Good night a week. But I'm open to either. And has this been something that's been on your mind for a while? Or how did this question come up?

So I love drawing and painting. I did it a lot in my childhood and in my, like up through my 20s. I was like pretty regularly in art classes and it's just something I really enjoy. And part of what I enjoy about it is that it's private. Like it's just one of the things that I do that, like it's not performative at all. I just enjoy it.

And having the hobby is really fun for me. Like when I was in Costa Rica visiting you 12 years ago, I was with you half of the time and then I was traveling on my own half of the time. And I traveled with my sketch pad and pencil. And I find that it is something that keeps me looking at the world and looking up. Whereas as a reader and writer, a lot of my life keeps me like looking down and

And because I haven't been in drawing classes lately, I just don't draw on my own. I've gotten like more insecure about my drawing. And so it's not as fun for me. And so I think a class would like get me back into it and that it's,

a really big part of what I love to do. And so I did it throughout my time in New York and I stopped when I came up here for grad school. I was like, I don't have time. And I just like never got back into it. Yeah. That's going to be my next question. Why did you stop? If this has been sort of a practice that has existed in your life. So it was a time thing that made you stop. Yeah, it was. I like taking classes through community centers or junior colleges. That's where I've always done my classes. And

And those are usually nights and weekends. And when I moved up to the Boston area, I was proctoring in addition to my full-time work, right? Like a lot of my nights were spoken for. I was going to student performances and student games. And, you know, like I felt like my job was kind of my extracurricular. Yeah. And then when I moved off campus, I moved in with my ex-husband. And so I had kid responsibilities and family responsibilities. So I haven't felt like I've had free nights. Yes.

for the last 12 years. And now there's two things. One, I'm recently divorced. And so I don't need to like hang out with anyone at night. Two, we're not doing any virtual classes in 2025 as a company other than our class, What Matters.

which is something I've been keeping my nights free for in case I need to teach. But now it's just 12 Wednesdays at night in 2025. So I like have free nights for the first time ever. For the first time in 12 years, not ever. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. There's a couple of things there. But before I dig in, I'm just curious. You sound so decided. There's room. There's space. Yeah.

Why is that your question? Because I have free nights for the first time ever. And I love a free night. I just love it. And I still don't totally feel like I have that many. My younger stepdaughter, Amy, she stops by a couple nights a week. And she does it last minute. You know, she'll be like, hey, can I come by tonight? And I like being around for that.

And so there's that. Like, both my kids just sort of, like, stop by. And at least for the next year and a half, while Ellen, my older kid, before she graduates from high school, she's only going to live in town for another year and a half. And while Amy is at the middle school that's just down the street from me, it feels like, why don't I just leave my nights free for the next year and a half to just, like, be available in case they call? Yeah.

So that's one is like, I really like sort of being around for my kids and not having to say to them, oh, sorry, I have art class tonight. Two is I love looking at my calendar and being like, do you know what I have to do tonight? Nothing. I can needle felt and listen to a romance novel. I can clean. I can cook. I have never, I've never had free time. At least I haven't had free time in over 12 years.

Why don't you want me to have some free time, Ray? Why am I immediately filling it up? Well, that's sort of where my questions are going. Yeah. I'm glad you asked them yourself. I'm sorry. Should I let you do this? Great. No, I just heard, I haven't had a free night in 12 years.

Even when I have a free night, my daughters might just show up and I want to have that space for them. Yeah. And so I don't want to set boundaries for them, right? I don't want to say, don't come on Tuesdays because I'm at the painting class. I just want to have my door open and let them come in whenever they want. And I know that you're always available for those people around you. Yes. And here I hear Vanessa saying that.

hey, should I save a space for myself for something that's important for me because it helps me instead of always looking down or looking at others? And then I hear a bunch of reasons why she shouldn't save a space for herself. So I'm wondering, what is it about, one, wanting a space for you that might be scary or that might be uncomfortable or that you might have just

forgotten how to do over the last 12 years that you've never had a space for yourself. You've always been giving to the people you were proctoring, giving to the people in the not sorry world, giving to your daughters, giving to your ex-husband. And now suddenly here's an opportunity to give just to you. It just doesn't always feel like giving. I love time with my kids.

They come over and we play Mario Party Jamboree and laugh and cook and listen to music and walk the dog and they tell me about their day. So it's not like, ugh, the kids, right? Like, they bring me so much joy. And they're aging, right? Like,

Ellen is almost 17. She's almost 17. She'll be 17 next month. It's just like, I feel like I have my whole retirement. I have my whole life to like invest in me. I don't know. Shouldn't I just like invest in them? And it's not just my kids, right? Like I have six sort of like niece and nephew children in Cambridge who I love very much. And I love, Marisa, I love children feeling entitled to me. That's really what it is.

I love, I love children feeling entitled to me. It makes me happy. Why don't you want me to be happy? Well, that goes into our relationship and I don't want to bring that here. No, I'm just, I'm listening to you and I've seen you. I've seen you with your daughters. I've seen you with other children. I've seen how happy it really makes you and how much joy you find in the children being comfortable around you and the children asking you for things and the children...

But I'm not taking that away from you. I'm not saying stop doing that. I'm saying, what does it mean for Vanessa to just have a space for Vanessa where nobody is entitled to her space? There's no students. There's no proctees. There's no kids. There's no husband. It's just Vanessa and Vanessa, right? You said I have my whole retirement from me. Mm-hmm.

I'm not so sure. If we keep building this, your retirement's still going to be for other people's kids or for other people's dogs or for other people's... That sounds real fun. No, I do want... That is the thing, though. I want drawing and painting to be a big part of my retirement. I really do. Like, I've always visualized having a big dog. Like, I kind of, when I'm old, want a dog that weighs as much as I do.

And then I want to draw and paint. These are the things that I know I want to do with my retirement. So it sounds like those skills, developing those skills, the ability to observe, the ability to draw, the ability to understand light and color, in a way, are part of your long-term plan.

Yeah, but I can do that once Amy and Ellen are like in the next phase of their lives. Like, why not wait another year and a half? Like, we are going to go through a phase change. Amy starting high school, which is really absorbing. And Ellen is graduating from high school. Like, we're about to have a big shift. Shouldn't I just give them a year and a half of my undivided attention? Yeah.

you're not going to not give them that year. Here's where I'm going to push. As you know, in my life, there have been a couple of moments where I've knocked on the door to the other side. I've been in the hospital, very nearly dying. I've said goodbye to the people I loved. And I said, you know, it was great being here. I'm leaving now. I haven't left. But as I think back to that,

Part of what I've realized has crystallized for me is all these things that we sometimes say, I'll do later. There might not be a later. And I know this is a big cliche, but taking a night off the week for yourself does not mean you're not giving it to Amy and Ellen. It doesn't mean you're not going to be there for them. It just means we're investing time for Vanessa to discover and explore this other part of herself that she really enjoys and

And that she's put on hold because, quote, I can just do that later. I could just do that in my retirement. I'm here to say, why aren't you exploring it now? What's holding you back from saying, I have these people in my life. I have these girls in my life. I really enjoy it. And I want to teach them and I want to show them how fun it is to also enjoy yourself and explore yourself. Okay, here's the thing I haven't told you yet. I kind of hate leaving the house, especially after it's dark.

My friend, Laura, whenever I feel like I have to leave the house after dark, she says, don't do it, Vanessa. There's nothing for you out there. And that is how I feel after dark.

I wake up at five in the morning to do all of the things I want to do when it's light out. Because I'm like, five o'clock, it's dark, not leaving the house. So that's the other thing is I'm like, oh, I finally get to be home and cozy. But I could be home and cozy and drawing if I invested more in my drawing. Well, and given the times that we live in, taking a drawing or painting class does not mean leaving the house. If that's really what's stopping you,

Oh, no, I would only want to do it in person. Yeah. I have more time on Zoom. My eyeballs will die. So I'm just going to put it like this. One, I really want to draw and paint, but I don't want to leave the house. And so when Mauricio says, you don't have to, you go, nope, I want to leave the house. I don't want to leave the house. I just don't want to do an online drawing class.

Here's my problem. I'm trying to picture myself on a Tuesday night. Let's picture that. You finished work at 5. Sure. It's dark out because it's January. Yeah. The drawing class at the community center is a 20-minute drive. Oh, my God. That's so far away. Okay. Also, can I just add something to this visual? Sure.

Please. My hands and feet are cold from October till March. Okay. So like once I'm warm at all, the idea of going back out into the cold is like horrible to me.

So I just want to say that. Let's amend the vision. I might not be warm that 5 o'clock because my feet don't always get warm at all. But it is possible that my feet are currently warm and I would have to leave the house. But continue. So I'm going to give you two options for that one. One, you've moved to Florida and it's 5 o'clock and it's dark. And you go outside and you go, oh, my gosh, it's not that cold here. Yeah.

would do that that if I could then bike or walk to my art class that is different for me that's interesting that's really interesting

Option number two, there's these little things that they sell at the store that I've used where you like crack it and stick it in your glove. Yeah. And it warms your hands when you're outside and it warms your feet because you've stuck them in your socks. Have you seen them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't like fit in your shoes. Okay. Yeah, sure. I'm just saying, we can keep coming up with excuses. No, I'm just telling you what my hurdles are. I'm worried I'm going to

I'm going to sign up for this and then not go because I'm like, but my feet are warm finally from walking the dog eight hours ago. My feet are finally warm. It is dark out. I'm into this romance novel I'm listening to. I can just stay home and needle felt an adorable stuffed animal and listen to this romance novel and like be like sunk cost $85 for this class. Do you think having paid the class won't be enough motivation to go? No. No.

I'm so good at justifying. Hi, I'm really good at justifying quitting things. So good at it. All right. So here's the question. You're trying to justify so much staying in and needle felting and listening to a romance novel. Why are we asking about the drawing class again? I don't know. It's your fault. That sounds great. No, because it sounds so fun. It really does.

It sounds like this is a question about Vanessa stepping out of her comfort zone. Yeah. Mariso, I had such a bad year last year. I think this is actually a question about my intentions for 2025. Whoa. This podcast works. Everyone should send in questions. This is amazing. 2024 was a tough year. It was a tough year. I decided to leave my husband. I moved into my own place after having just moved into a house with him.

Financially for the company, it was tough for a couple months there. We had to lay people off for the first time ever, which was obviously harder for them, but was not pleasant for me. I had major surgery. And then my mom had a major fall. As of February of 2024, I knew 2024 was going to be something I had to get through. As soon as I left my husband, I was like, I have a move. I have a divorce. I have a surgery. I have a divorce.

I knew 2024 was going to be tough, and it has been. And so I'm like, 2025, why won't you just let me rest, Mauricio? Just let me rest. I remember you ended 2023 by getting ankle surgery, didn't you? I did. It's been a rough two years.

I mean, I was going to say you finished the year getting ready to move a lot in 2024. That's a very nice way to say that. That's true. And so what I'm also hearing you say, because you literally said it, is about 2025 and about the intentions that you want to set for 2025. Yes. One of those intentions being fill in the blank. So it's like it could be rest. It could be the kids. But yeah, I don't know what I want my intention to be.

Yeah, but I'm going back to the drawing and the painting. Yeah. Why was that your question? And what's the intention behind that, that you're sort of intuiting? Oh, that's such a good question. Why? Why? I think part of it is, like, it would get me... Oh my God, guys, I'm getting emotional. Like, I don't want new friends. I, like, really don't want new friends because I happen to have the best friends. But it would be out meeting people. Like, I went to the theater this weekend and...

chatting like in a contained way, like offered everyone around me a cough drop. Someone gave me a tissue, right? Like I love community. Like don't come up to me when I'm at the gym with headphones on. But if I'm like in a public space meant to engage, I love it. And so I think it would be really fun to like take a class with nine other people and

I love learning, having a teacher like sit and be like, what have you thought about shading or hatching like this? You know, I guess it's exciting that it would feel like something new. I heard two potential 2025 goals there. One is learning and the other one is engaging new communities. Yeah. Yeah. Not currently part of a community.

I am currently a part of a lot of virtual communities, and then I have individual relationships and groups of friends. But yeah, I guess that's one of the things that I don't have now, right? Like when I lived in New York, I was part of drawing classes and a boxing gym and even just my job, right? Like we were in person. I proctored. I lived on campus for a long time. And then like I was part of a family unit. I'm living alone for the first time in my life. Yeah. I'm not lonely. Yeah.

But I think it would be nice to like be around people and have someone in the class who I hate and like have a nemesis and then also be like, oh, it's Judy's birthday. I'm going to bake cookies. That sounds fun. Yeah. So I'm also hearing that the question is less about drawing or painting classes and more about community. I also really like the idea of traveling around with my notepad and pencil again. Yeah. I travel a lot.

I'm not a journaler. Those people who travel with journals, I wish I could be you. I'm not you. But like instead of running around from the British Museum to the Victoria and Albert, if I like got to sit at Kew Gardens and draw for two hours, that sounds really nice to me. And so it's like I'd be giving traveling Vanessa a gift. So it's a space of rest, but it's a space of introspection. It's not just rest.

It's not watching a series on Netflix and zoning out. This is a place where you can start to, by drawing, also discover things about yourself. What is your eye drawn to? What are your skills? What are your thoughts? Drawing is an active rest. It's not a disconnected rest. And that, for me, makes it a really valuable space. Because you're not just sort of unplugging from the world. You're actually resting somewhere.

by finding the parts of the world that attract you, that interest you, that you engage with. So you're using different parts of your brain than the ones you use during your day job. Yeah. If we go back to 2025, the goals that Vanessa is setting for herself after a hard 2024, if we go back to that question, Vanessa is projecting that

For future Vanessa, a year of learning, a year of engaging with community, and a year of growth, it sounds like. A year of investment in her future. A year of rest. A year of rest. A different kind of rest. Not laying in bed, disconnecting rest. Yeah. But a kind of rest that also engages with other parts of you. That because of the circumstances of your life so far, you've had to put away. Yeah. Yeah.

Does that sound interesting or attractive to you? Yeah, it really does. I did. Yeah, me too. I'm excited for the things that you're going to discover, for the things that you're going to sort of pull back out that you've put away, for the rest and recovery, because you have had a rough year. It's been a lot. And I'm excited for you to explore all that happened in 2024 through drawing and painting. Okay, so I need you in on this.

So just so you know, before I go out to class, I'm going to text you saying, I really don't want to go. Because a key part of me doing new things is the complaining. Okay. It's like an important part of my process. I can offer when you need to complain or when you need me to kick you out the door, you can text or call. Okay. Thank you. I'll quickly reply. I'm with a client. Just go. Okay.

I actually don't need you to respond. I just need someone to blame. Be like, I'm going, but I'm not happy about it. I can't believe you made me do this. Class, everyone. I'm so excited. I really thought he's prying me out of this apartment with my cold feet over my cold, alive hands. There's no way I'm going to start to leave the house. Listen, I love my house too. And if possible...

I will not leave the house. And I'll have people come visit me in my house if they want my time. Yeah. And once in a while, it's actually really good to leave the house. And it refreshes and it reminds me and it brings me back to the house with a different energy that is just then really nice to be in the house again. It's all about making home time nice. Okay. You have to thank me.

I was about to thank you, but that's not my job. Thank you for being on the show, for being my first guest, for warming up that side of the couch for everyone else who's going to join me in the future. Yeah. I'm really excited to see where we're going with this podcast and everything we're going to create, all the stories we're going to listen to and talk about, and all the people we're going to meet. And I hope that once in a while...

You'll also stop by and check in on us. We would love to get updates on how 2025 is going for you. And we would love to just bring you in every once in a while and just talk about our plans, about some of the questions that some of the other guests have brought. And there'll be a monthly Patreon perk where we talk. Lots of plans for this show and for 2025. And I really look forward to...

seeing you explore and then spending more time with you. I just really want to recommend to people genuinely coming on this podcast. I had feelings and thoughts that I did not think I would. And this ended very differently than I thought it would. So 10 out of 10 recommend this experience. Submit a question.

Hi guys, it's present day Vanessa again. I would like for you to know that I actually went to the art class and I didn't even complain to Mauricio. I complained to Ariana.

If you enjoyed this conversation, I do want to direct you to Mauricio's and my class, What Matters. It is a 28-week long class that includes one-on-one chaplaincy sessions with Mauricio. We do sacred reading practices. We do self-exploration. And then we also have the award-winning storyteller, Michaela Bly, teach you how to integrate the lessons that you've learned in the class into a story about your own life.

You can find out more about that class by going to not sorry works.com. It's one of our favorite things that we get to do. So join us. Have a good day, everyone.

I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a Sleep Number smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes, but after literally one night in my Sleep Number smart bed, my body feels restored, rested, and relaxed. The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night is worth it alone.

to mention my husband and I never need to argue over firmness because we can each dial in our own sleep number setting. Why choose a Sleep Number smart bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now, for a limited time, Sleep Number smart beds start at $849. Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

Live from the internet's red carpet, it's Vrbo's 2025 Vacation Rentals of the Year. Our annual showcase of the very best of Vrbo. Selected from over 2 million private vacation rentals, this year's list features breakout hits like a ski-in, ski-out mountain chalet and a modern beach compound with unobstructed ocean views. And with discounts on select stays of one week or longer, these critically acclaimed homes might be more affordable than you'd think. Head over to Vrbo.com, that's V-R-B-O, to check out the official list and make it a Vrbo.

This episode is brought to you in part by the Fetzer Institute. When we asked the team at Fetzer what we should highlight about their mission in this time, they suggested that we breathe together. So take a breath with me.

Fetzer believes that centering the sacred is the path towards shared flourishing. As part of their work, they are sponsoring our shows here at Not Sorry. To learn more about Fetzer and help create a more loving world for all, visit Fetzer.org. Join the movement at Fetzer.org.