Uncertainty: A Place to Hide (Book 7, Chapter 9)
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Vanessa, it's our flagship program launch for What Matters. And this year you've chosen some fabulous books. Tell us more about the program. Yes. So What Matters is a 28 week intensive cohort based class that is all

all based around sacred reading. This year, we have picked three incredible novels to do our sacred reading with. The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler, Station Eleven by Emily St. Mandel, and Women Talking by Miriam Taves. Wow. And we are going to be talking about the theme of identity. And this class is just, Casper, it's one of the things I'm most proud of having co-designed. Yeah.

You know, we do sacred reading with me and then Mauricio Bruce does analysis and self-exploration based on the books and then one-on-one chaplaincy with everyone. And then we end with Michaela Bly helping everybody turn this into a story that they can tell so that there's like something really finite that they can take out as the lesson that they want to remember from the class.

And the class is all about using these spiritual technologies that we know work really well, sacred reading, community, one-on-one chaplaincy and storytelling in order to discern how you want to live your life and what values you want to live up to. And the thing that I'm proudest of is just how many people come back and do it again. Like we have three people out of 24 who just finished it and immediately signed up to do it again this year. Whoa.

Yeah. That's awesome. It's a little bit like a sort of secular seminary. Right. And you can find it at NotSorryWorks.com. The first class kicks off on August 20th. There are payment plans available, so definitely check this out. It's really worth your time. Chapter 9: A Place to Hide. Everything seemed fuzzy, slow. Harry and Hermione jumped to their feet and drew their wands. Many people were only just realizing that something strange had happened.

I'm Kasper Ter-Kyle. And I'm Courtney Brown. And this is Harry Potter and the Secret Text. Welcome, Courtney. We've upgraded and replaced Vanessa for this week with our very own Courtney Brown. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It is a coup, but now everyone knows. It's an inside job.

Courtney, you have been part of the Not Sorry team for a couple years now. And you and I are leading a pilgrimage this summer. So you really are at the heart of the good time we get to have here at Not Sorry Productions. Tell us a little bit about what you do and how you help make the magic happen. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me today. So I

I am director of programs at Not Sorry, which means that I have my hand in just about everything that we do from virtual pilgrimages to virtual classes to in-person pilgrimages. And I help create some of our behind the scenes ideas. I'm very involved in launching things like What Matters, which is our ongoing program that we have on sale right now that starts in August.

So just really looking forward to the things that we have planned for the rest of the year. And one of those things that I know we'll be talking about more and more as it draws closer to is how we will end Harry Potter and the Sacred Text well. So I'm just feeling really sentimental today that I'm here in the final season. It's very exciting. Sneak peek. Courtney Mayle may not be helping us think about some live shows. Don't tell Vanessa.

This week, if you are a subscriber to our Patreon, you can join our Every Flavored Bean conversation where, inspired by this chapter, we're going to talk about how you would booby trap a house with magic.

Which I feel like what better kind of practical joke energy is there than what we see in Grimmauld Place in this chapter, although slightly scary. So come join us, subscribe and join our Patreon. We really, really appreciate everyone's support. You can do that at patreon.com slash Harry Potter sacred text. So Courtney, this week we're reading our chapter through the theme of uncertainty. And that has been a really present experience for me over the last year.

really like nearly a year. You know, I stepped back from some projects to try focus on writing another book, which I'm really excited about. And it's going so much slower and we're still in process and we're on version 10 of the proposal as we speak.

So that whole process has been very, you know, uncertain, but even more so has been kind of figuring out what my job is going to be. You know, I'm what they call kind of an entrepreneurial person. So I like building things and finding interesting ideas and getting together with interesting people and creating something. And that has so much creativity and brings me so much energy. And I'm not expert, but like good enough at lots of little bits that, you know, it's useful when you're starting out and you kind of have to do a little bit of everything. Like I'm good at that.

that, what they call going from zero to one in the biz. And so I've been kind of exploring different projects and hoping this thing might work out or that collaboration might lead somewhere and trying different things, but nothing had kind of landed. And as we get closer and closer to the end of my current grant cycle that I'm in for the work I'm doing,

I was like, I'm going to have to get a job. This is not happening, people. And so looking at job descriptions and like starting to have initial conversations and learning about what's out there made me feel so uncertain. First of all, if people would hire me, you know, like in some ways I've got a lot of skills, but in other ways, like I've been doing my own thing for so long. Do I know how to use Microsoft Teams? Not really. And that uncertainty about whether I would be, you know, working

worth considering as a candidate made me feel so uncertain about my own worth. And I'm so resentful at my brain for how quickly it went from like the uncertainty of having a job to feeling uncertain about my own worthiness. And the good news is that just a few days ago, we got some happy information that another grant is coming my way. So I'll be able to afford the mortgage. Yeah.

Yay. Which is great. And so that uncertainty is kind of ebbed away. But I am left with that feeling of just the impact of when life is uncertain, how frightening it can be. And so as I think about the trio in this chapter and, you know, the intense uncertainty that they're now experiencing as they're having to escape, they're having to run, they're on the run now in full blast.

Like, how is that going to impact their sense of their own skills, their relationship with each other even? I just think uncertainty can blast open things that, you know, usually feel okay, but once the ground underneath

gets shaky, you know, what's going to tumble. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Casper, for sharing. I think everyone can relate to having this ebb and flow of uncertainty and what that does bring up in us. And I also found it so interesting, you know, I don't want to get too far into it, but the last chapter ends with a very certain declaration. We get the ministry has fallen, Scrimgeour is dead, they are coming. And that's what sends our trio, our main characters, into a spiral of uncertainty.

So I'm interested in chatting about that and how it brings forth that idea in the text. Yeah, I love that. Like that clean change. It's like a scene change on the theater stage. And it's like suddenly everything is different. Yes. Yeah, that's so true. Well, let's remind everyone what happens in this chapter. Do you think they might be a little uncertain about what happened? Exactly. That's where I'm going, Corey. Yeah.

Why don't you start, Courtney, and give us your 30-second recap of this chapter nine of book seven. Shall I count you in? Okay, okay. Three, two, one.

One, go. Okay, so the trio grab hands and disoperate from the wedding onto a busy London street and then they change clothes and see how prepared Hermione is just forever. And then they hide in a cafe and they order really dreadful cappuccinos and then two Death Eaters show up and they have to fight and duel and cast spells finally. And then they think maybe Harry has the trace on him because he's been found and how did they find him? And then they go to Grimmauld Place and they find Harry.

and screeching Mrs. Black and weird, disturbing Dumbledore. And then Harry's scar hurts so, so bad. So he has to run to the bathroom really, really quickly. And then Hermione knocks on the door and says, I have your toothbrush because my parents are dentists. I hadn't connected that. Yes. Dental hygiene from Hermione. It matters. It matters even on the run, even when camping. Brush your teeth.

Oh, that's fantastic. Okay. Seriously. Good recap, Courtney. Okay. You're giving me a run for my money here. All right. Will you count me in too? Absolutely. Okay. Three, two, one, go. So at the wedding, we don't know what's happening. We don't know who's arrived. We don't know...

Who's injured? Who's being taken hostage? Scary things are happening. They disapparate. We go to central London. Ron keeps wanting to go to the Leaky Cauldron. Hermione's like, you don't get it. We're not going to go back to where we came from. And Ron is so worried about his family, which we find out everything's okay because Arthur Weasley sends a Patronus and says everything's okay. Harry is...

increasingly getting more and more of a connection with Voldemort, which is freaking him out. But what's really freaking out the other two, he's like, I have to succumb. And then he does. And we see Draco torturing Dolhoff. No, the other guy. Yeah.

And we see Draco torturing one of the Death Eaters. I'm really glad that you remembered the Arthur part because I forgot that his Patronus is a weasel. A weasel. Weasley. Weasley weasel. So cute. We've got dentists and toothbrushes. We've got weasels and weasleys. There's a lot of good stuff here, even in transit. Yes, agreed.

So Courtney, I feel like we have to start with Hermione. You know, we see at the wedding this kind of total chaos. She disapparates with the guys and takes them to Tottenham Court Road in the centre of London with a great new tube station, by the way, for anyone visiting London.

very convenient. And she's thought of everything, right? Like they're obviously in their dress robes because it's a wedding. She's packed muggle clothes. Harry's freaking out because he doesn't have the invisibility cloak. And she's like, I got you, bro. And in fact, she tells us

you know, I just had a feeling. Like, I got everything ready today because I had a feeling. And I'm curious what you make of Hermione in all of this chapter, really, where she is providing some level of certainty in the midst of this very uncertain situation. Like, is this kind of her preponderance

and wisdom and strategic now getting ready? Or is this kind of like her reaction to uncertainty where she's like trying to control so much, right? That I don't know, will that get in the way? I'm just curious how you read Hermione in this scene. Right. Well, I mean, I identify with Hermione in the sense that sometimes this feeling of preparedness is,

at least in theory, to counteract uncertainty. So being a person who really wants to be prepared at all costs, I'm a parent. And so if I go somewhere, I do a lot of research before I go. You know, how accessible are we for a stroller? Where can my child go if they need a quiet space? You know, because maybe they're overstimulated. And I think Hermione has always assumed that role within the trio. She cares about them in the way that she's always organized and on top of her own assignments and clarifications.

class and she can do the same with this assignment in the real world. She's just like thinking about this big test they have coming where they're going to be doing this mission for Dumbledore that they don't fully understand. And so all she's doing the entire time they're preparing for the wedding is slowly packing her bag, slowly getting it ready, slowly pulling resources. And so

even though she didn't know it was going to happen at the wedding, that the ministry would fall and that they would be in this dangerous position. She had the bag ready to go just in case.

And it definitely contrasts with the boys who know something big is coming, but maybe don't know where to start. Yeah. And they have to be thrust into uncertainty before they can start taking action and making decisive steps. Whereas Hermione was just all along able to think a little bit ahead what they may need and provide that, knowing that that's like a way that she fits into this group of three. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. And honestly, I was a little embarrassed because my memory of this chapter is really focused on the packing. And I forgot that she's also been learning new magic, right? Like how to wipe someone's memory. We're going to see that in action with the two Death Eaters later on in the scene. But so her preparation, she's not just like a glorified, you know, travel planner. Right.

That's right. It's so multifaceted, the way in which she's preparing. And I love that analogy. It's interesting to kind of read her as a parental figure because she does. Yeah, she's really taking on even what we were joking about with the toothbrush. Right. Like there is this sense of caretaking for both Ron and Harry that really goes beyond just what a friend or a co-pilot would do, which, you know, there's all sorts of things to say about that and the gender dynamics. But yeah.

It is clearly the way in which she is navigating this uncertainty is like anything that can be prepared. I'm going to prepare it. However, what struck me is that when all the books tumble in her magical bag, which she has also learned how to expand incredibly and has all of the details, you know, all of the things she might need are in this little pouch.

She's very chill about it. Like I can imagine if I put that much preparation into something and I'm navigating this huge uncertainty and all my books that I've beautifully arranged now are in just a big pile of unsorted debris, like that would be very stressful and anxiety provoking, but she seems very chill. So I really do see her not doing this out of a kind of an anxious state.

But it really is one of preparation and she's able to go with the flow, you know, when things go differently from how she would want. Right. She knows that her survival almost is tied with Ron and Harry because if Harry doesn't make it out alive, then.

the entire wizarding world is going to be in chaos. It's already in some chaos. Absolutely. And so I think her preparation is not just because she knows that, okay, I have to take care of these boys. We've been best friends for years now and they're not going to remember any of these things. I think she's considering a greater good whether or not it's conscious. Hmm.

We have to do this thing. If we don't do it, everyone suffers. And so it's like this call to action. It's not just about them being on the run. It's about how this is going to lead to the next step of success and to squash that uncertainty. Because in the end, they want to know that good is going to prevail, right? Yeah. Courtney, I want to pick up on what you said about being a parent, because I feel like

Have you had moments where like you end up in a situation where you weren't able to do that kind of planning and like you're having to navigate? I don't know, like a kid meltdown and they need a quiet space and you're like, I don't know where that is because I wasn't able to plan for this. Like, how do you find it as a parent when you're not able to do that kind of planning versus when you are? Like, I guess what I'm asking is like, is it to be a better parent or is it to feel better as a parent?

Hmm. That's such a good distinction. I think it is all of those things. So my oldest child is autistic and needs a lot of research and preparation before we do anything out of a normal routine. And obviously as your kids grow and change, their needs are adaptable. They, you know, things that you remember them needing when they were small are something that you don't even think about now. And

at the end of the school year, they had a field day. And of course, I'd already discussed the idea of what... Do you know what field day is, Casper? Is this something that they do in England? We had sports day. Do people like race and have picnics? Yes. Okay. Similar vibes. Okay, great. Yes. So it is...

is very fun for kids because it gets you out of class and it gives you an opportunity to play and it gives you a chance to be competitive if that is your vibe. It gets you a chance to show off your physical prowess if that is your vibe. But it can be hard.

and difficult for the child who needs to have normalcy. And so I did as much as I could in order to give my kid a good time and a prepared feeling so the anxiety could be lower. But at the end of the day, I can't prepare for every single, you know,

Boone Race or Tug of War, Tumble or, you know, Splash Pad. Oh, this shirt is wet. It's sticking to me now and it feels really bad. There's only so much of that that you can explain ahead of time. And so I don't know that, you know, the decisions that I make to prepare my kids for

are just so I can be a good parent, but it's also because I'm looking for every chance that I can help them flourish and enjoy and make good memories. And also have the tools to suss out, like, what is it that's making me feel uncomfortable? What is it that's making me feel uncertain or confused or worried or anxious? And then take those tools and apply them whenever I'm not the person who's in charge of their itinerary and their schedule, you know, day to day. Yeah, that's beautiful.

It actually makes me think of another place in the chapter, just like as a young person navigating uncertainty,

Harry doesn't like we don't know what is going on with the trace right? Yes, so after they land in Tottenham Court Road They go into a what we would call in England a greasy spoon cafe. Yes, right You know it where you might get you know a fried fry up or an English breakfast as you call it You know, there's always tea there's bad coffee But it's often open late and open early because you know traditionally what you are

might expect is that folks who are, you know, working early or working late are able to get food and drink there. So they end up in a greasy spoon and these two kind of shady characters arrive and don't order anything, which immediately gets Hermione's kind of awareness on. And they end up being two death eaters and they try and take Harry as prisoner, but, you know, are stopped by the trio. And, and,

What's so interesting is we as a reader also don't understand, right? The trace is supposed to stop when you're 17. And obviously the ministry is in a very different place. So maybe the trace is still on there. And Harry's trying to think through like, well, if the trace is on me, then anytime I use magic, they can find me. Anytime you two use magic, they can find me. So like we can't use magic. So what are we going to do? And so I'm curious what you made of this uncertainty about the very, um,

tools of their trade, right? Like how they're planning to get rid of the whole crux, how they're planning to get around.

Yeah. How does that uncertainty impact what we're seeing on the page? Right. The trace just kind of unearths a vulnerability they couldn't have possibly planned for, especially because this entire book, the chapters leading up to it, have focused so much on the trace because it mattered how Harry would leave Privet Drive. And they pivot and make a different plan and try to confuse the Death Eaters. And so I think

when they finally have a second to sit down and think about, you know, what do we do next? Where are we going? And that is its own uncertainty. But then the other uncertainty is, does it matter where we go? Because can they always find where we are? And is that a systemic change at the ministry that's now being, you know, overtaken by, you know, a dictator essentially? And has the magic been bent toward evil and we don't know about it and no one can communicate that to us? Or is this just us being paranoid and the uncertainty that

is married to paranoia that they have to fight and they'll continue to fight as they start finding horcruxes and it makes them feel, you know, the worst versions of themselves. This feels so related to the political moment we're in. I know. I mean, just the way in which fear is itself a weapon, right, of control, not even knowing how bad things are or what's going to happen. Like that is a way in which

People can be demobilized, right? Like you end up freezing because it's just unclear. It's chaotic. It's yeah, it's uncertain. And it makes me long for certainty. But honestly, what it makes me long for is courage. And I think that's what we see in this chapter, right? Like the decision to go to Grimmauld Place after this encounter with the Death Eaters is,

It's not perfect. It really isn't because we know that Snape probably has access to it and through Snape, probably the rest of the Death Eaters and Voldemort. But at the same time, Harry's like, where else can we go? Like it's imperfect, but we've got to do something. And here we see, I think exactly like you were talking about, Hermione's gift is in preparation and Harry's gift is in clarity in crisis. Like he's just like, we're going this way. We're going to do it. And it ends up being a good decision, right? They end up finding some safety there. Right.

But the way uncertainty is wielded as a weapon in this situation, I thought was really, really interesting. Right. This week's episode of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text is brought to you by StoryWorth. So Matt Potts gave his dad...

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We got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. Hey, Kristen, how's it tracking? With Carvana Value Tracker. What else? Oh, it's tracking. In fact, value surge alert trucks up 2.5%. Vans down 1.7%. Just as predicted. Mm-hmm. So we gonna... I don't know. Could sell, could hold. The power to always know our car's worth. Exhilarating, isn't it?

- Tracking. - Always know your car's worth with Carvana Value Tracker. - I think that the most interesting thing about the three of them being in this chapter is that they move four different locations. It's such a short chapter, but we have all these scene changes within it.

And every time they moved to a new place, there was kind of a new uncertainty that is unlocked a bit. And they leave the wedding. The uncertainty is who's even attacking us? Like was Voldemort himself there? Right. Who's behind that didn't get out? Who's in chains now? Who is safe? So like that uncertainty is there. And then they pivot to the cafe and the uncertainty ends up being, you know, where to next and what?

Do we have the trace still tracking us, essentially, you know, monitoring us, which also feels like very present day. Then they move on to Grimmauld Place and the uncertainty is whether or not Snape is just going to show up because they don't trust Snape anymore and they know that he has access to this location. He's aware that it was important to the Order. And then...

I guess with every single new location, they're also rotating who feels more uncertain. - Oh! - Do you see what I'm saying? - That's interesting. Yeah. - Hermione feels deeply in her bones that everyone back at the wedding is okay. They're competent, they're prepared like me. - Well, and also she doesn't have anyone there in the way that Ron does. - Exactly. Her parents don't know right now that she exists. Like, she made them believe they're someone else.

And so she's feeling less worried or uncertain about what's going on there. And then Harry seems to feel more uncertainty whenever Harry

He's being honestly invaded. I mean, I don't even know what we call what Voldemort is doing to his brain. Yes, and also, whenever they're static, he gets nervous, right? Like, there's a moment in the text where Walking had given the illusion that they had a goal. So being on the move is Harry's M.O. And so, like, what's interesting is that, like, because he never felt at home

in Privet Drive. I'm just wondering if this sense of like place actually is sort of illusory to him anyway. Like he wants to be on the move. He wants to be going to these different places to find the Horcrux. And yet he's the one who suggests Grimmauld Place, which does suggest also a sense of home or at least a connection with Sirius. I don't know, but I love this idea that each of these different scenes

is uncertain, especially for one of the trio. That's really interesting. Right. Yeah. And then I think, you know, Hermione, I feel like in the chapter she talks about her uncertainty is where do we go after this busy London street? She's not feeling super confident about Grimmauld Place. And she doesn't feel confident later about Godric's Hollow either. I mean, there's...

They just have to take turns managing who can move forward and who feels that paralysis, like you said, in the uncertainty. I think they are able to do that not perfectly or seamlessly the entire time that they're hunting horcruxes, but the reason that they even have that space is because there's so much trust already there and they have encountered so much uncertainty before. It's funny, you know this because you've done this for so long, but when you name a theme for the text,

it just starts exploding everywhere. It's not just in this chapter. It's not just in this book. So it's something that they've navigated before. And at least there's that muscle memory. But every time they move to a new place, they're having to regroup and figure out, okay, well, who feels like they can take the first step now? Because I'm uncertain. So it can't be me this time. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like it's worth talking about Ron in the cafe. So we have this fight with the two Death Eaters and they're able to defeat them. And not just the two Death Eaters, but the waitress too is hit by a spell that kind of bounces off. And so she's also kind of lifeless on the floor. And so we have these three figures lying there. And as they're preparing to leave, they know they've got to get out of there. But Ron asks kind of with a hesitation in his voice, like,

Do we kill them? Right. And it's this, I mean, there's something comedic in it, but really it's tragic, right? Like it's, it's a real confrontation for Ron of like, is this what it's going to take? Like, I know we're running away, but like these guys can't know that we're here. And so like, is this what it's going to take to do the job that we're doing? Right. And, and,

It sounds like in that question, by even asking it, he's confronting his own willingness to do it if it's absolutely necessary, but he doesn't want to. And the relief he feels when Hermione reveals the fact that she can wipe memories and Harry's like, let's get out of here. Right. And, you know, we should clean up so it doesn't look like there was an altercation. So no one will suspect that we've been here. You know, there's good rational reasons, but there's also a sort of moral reason.

of like, I don't want to do that. And yeah, just a real discomfort and uncertainty about what the right thing to do is here. And I think the group dynamic piece that you're picking up on, that they've been through these situations many times before, is at play here as well, because Ron's not making a decision. He's maybe asking a question, but he's really looking to Hermione and Harry to lead. Yeah, absolutely. Because he knows, too, what he brings to the group. And so he's...

His deluminator. Exactly. The light. Let there be light. That's Ron's job. I just, I know that they've practiced so many of these spells as their coursework. So they have done some of these things, not maybe the specific memory charm, but to actually have to put the things you've practiced in a classroom into a real world setting where real lives are at stake. It's such a dramatic transition and it just makes uncertainty so loud. Yeah.

Because, yeah, maybe they've had Dumbledore's army and they've, you know, practiced with their classmates and they've been able to study and read books. And they've had conversations with maybe family members or other wizards that they trust. And it's still not the same as looking at bodies on the floor and trying to figure out how they're supposed to hide where they are. So that way they can make their location uncertain to the other side. Because uncertainty can be a tool that's like...

you know, to your advantage if it's thwarting the people that you're trying to evade, which is what they're doing here. So I see that piece of it too. And I think Ron's question feels so in that moment, but it's actually very loaded.

Because like you said, this is, is this what we do now? Is this who we are now that we're not like in the safety of Hogwarts anymore? And then he's able to get that relief when they're saying to him, no, we don't have to kill them. Don't worry. I'm just still going to Expelliarmus my way out of all of this. Time to change the spell, Harry. Come on now.

Okay, Courtney. So this week we are going to do Lectio Divina, our sacred reading practice. And I'm going to invite you to choose a number. I'm going to give you the page numbers of my copy. A number between 134 and 145. 137. 137 it is. Okay. We've got a little sentence for our sacred reading. Here we go.

Not to stay there, but to find out what's going on. Not to stay there, but to find out what's going on. So in step one of Lectio, we're always just trying to read narratively kind of what's happening on the page. And this is Ron saying not to stay there, but to find out what's going on after he suggested going to Charing Cross to the Leaky Cauldron because it's not too far from where they are in Tottenham Court Road.

And so I guess, yeah, what else is kind of going on narratively in this moment when Ron says not to stay there, but to find out what's going on? I think narratively, one of the things that's happening is Ron is particularly thinking about what's going on with everyone that I share a last name with, right? I mean, he's asking a question about the event they've just escaped from.

Yeah. I don't think his mind is on Hogwarts or, you know, anyone else's neighborhood. It's my family home was just attacked. Like, what is going on at the borough? Maybe I'll hear something about it if we go to a more public place. You know, has any of this leaked yet at the Leaky Cauldron? So...

Just checking in. That's so smart. And it actually, so the next sentence is, we know what's going on. Voldemort's taken over the ministry. What else do we need to know? And that's such a Harry answer, although it's Hermione who says it. But like, it shows just like where their attention is being paid, right? Like what's going on with whom? I think you're exactly right. And we don't know the answer to that.

Right. We know the answer to the big question that Hermione is speaking to the kind of societal context, but we don't know what's happening with, with Ron's family. And so this, oh, that's actually, it's softening my heart to Ron. Even just to think about that. I know. Right. Like, of course you'd want to go find out as quickly as you could. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, let's go to step two. And so here we're inviting ourselves to kind of think really creatively about what associations do we have allegorically with this sentence? Are there movies or poems or songs or stories? You know, anything in a kind of broader cultural context that relates to this. Not to stay there, but to find out what's going on. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's bubbling up the idea of almost every hero's journey. You know, you get this call, you get this,

reason to leave, to go. And so their reason is that they're being forced into adventure and

And I think that that happens a lot with, you know, other movies that I've seen and texts that I've read. Well, yeah, I'm thinking of Andor. I'm watching the latest season right now. And, you know, Cassian, who's our hero, learns that where his beloved is, the planet that she's on is being not attacked, but it's being investigated. And so it's absolutely not the place to go in terms of his own safety.

And it's not necessarily that he wants to stay there, but he wants to find out what's going on. And even being told, like, don't go there. It's dangerous. He's like, no, I'm going. So there is this kind of impulse thing.

you know, that love triumphs sensible decision making to some extent. But at the same time, you know, I think what we're seeing here with Ron and maybe also in this, in this Andor series that I'm really enjoying is that sense of like, well, whatever is happening to you, I want to be there with you. So like, even if it's the worst case scenario, I don't want that to happen to you while I'm gone. There is some beauty in that, I think too, as well as maybe some less strategic thinking. But yeah,

At the same time, let me give Ron's idea some real credence. Like Harry has an invisibility cloak. Yes. He could actually go in. They have some tools. Yeah, exactly. They have some tools. This is not an outlandish suggestion. They have done way more stupid stuff. Agreed. Is it high risk? Yes. But it's not an obscene idea. So I like that. I like that kind of hero's journey connection.

I don't know why I'm thinking of Agatha Christie, but like I read mystery stories. That was really the only reading I did as a teenager. And it's so often the scenes where she sets one of her murder mysteries is in a kind of transitionary place, right? The mansion where everyone has gathered for a weekend is kind of like a classic example. But I'm even thinking of Death on the Nile where it's on a boat. And so there's

this kind of transitory nature. So not to stay there. I don't know. I'm just thinking about like how Poirot or Miss Marple might go somewhere to like find out what's going on as part of a trip. I don't know. There's something about the kind of in-between spaces or transitory spaces where there is an opportunity to learn things you wouldn't learn at home, right? Encounter people you wouldn't encounter at home. So that's maybe another kind of echo there. Yeah, I agree. And Ron is...

you know, essentially making sure everyone is clear. I know we have to keep moving. I'm not saying that we get to just put our feet up and relax at the hotel. You know, I don't think he wants his idea to be considered bad. You know, I have things to offer too. That's so interesting. He literally says that first, not to stay there, but to find out what's going on. He qualifies it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting, Courtney. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. Okay. Well, let me ask you this, which is what does it remind you of in your own life? Step three, not to stay there, but to find out what's going on. It's what's so funny is it makes me think of when a line forms outside of a building and you just aren't really sure what everyone's waiting on. And,

And I know I can't stay at the front of the line. I know that. That would be cutting in line. But I do need to go walk to the front and see what's going on. Because not for my own curiosity, but now I've got two kids asking and a husband who wonders and my friends that I've met up here. And we have to go not to stay, but to see what is everyone waiting on? What's so worth waiting for? That's just like a really fast example that comes to me.

I like that. I'll raise you it. I'm not even getting in line. I'm just seeing a line forming. I'm like, this is just my mother. She does exactly the same thing. She's like, oh, well, so what's the line for? What are you guys going to go see? And like, sometimes it's really random. Like, you know, it might be like an opening of a store or like there's a special something or a concert, right? Like you do

kind of learn some interesting things just by like seeing, huh, people are congregating here. Like something is going on. Let's, let's learn about that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Maybe my favorite star from Wicked is signing autographs. I mean, we don't know unless we ask the people what they're waiting on. Exactly. Exactly. I like that. I mean, another thing that I think of that is just, you know, more tragic is, um,

when something happens in a crowd that is dangerous and is unsafe and you know, you can't go toward it, but maybe you've stumbled on it once law enforcement has arrived or, you know, whatever the case may be. And you want to know, and like, what is this desire in us to want to understand the tragedy that we're so like, you know, within proximity of and, and,

Is it because we want to be able to bless that person and kind of understand what's going on and think of that? Is it because we're just curious and we love gossip and this is our neighborhood and so we want to understand what's going on for our own safety? Is it because we need to be able to connect with others that this thing that we're stumbling on is affecting our entire community? Yeah.

I can't believe I hadn't thought about this yet, but this is all about uncertainty, right? Like our very theme is showing up in this line so clearly. And I think it's our...

our struggle to accept uncertainty, right? That drives us towards that kind of interaction where we can become a kind of gross gawking audience. You know, the classic is the accident on the freeway or, you know, on the, on the road. But there's something that's so difficult just to accept that we're not going to know. We're not going to understand. And it's maybe even not for us to know. Not for us. Yeah. Right. And it's like, what does it have to do with me? But,

But here I am looking out the window and I will say to myself every single time, I'm like, I'm not going to look. And then I look, right? There's just this instinct. Well, take me to step four, where we're going to ask ourselves, well, what's an action that we want to take? Or what's the reflection we want to think about? What is this text inviting us to do? Not to stay there, but to find out what's going on. Yeah, I think it goes back to how you mentioned courage earlier. Yeah.

Not to stay there to find out what's going on. It feels like it could be this personal call to move through uncertainty, through courage. Even if it's not the best idea, it's an idea that Ron has and it's the next best thing he understands to do. So it's worth it to him to pitch it to the group and to have it shot down. It's worth it to voice his vulnerability and what he's concerned about.

And I just wonder if we can, you know, in our own trusted circles, can we be more vulnerable in doing the same? That's beautiful.

Even if we're uncertain about our own proposal. Right. Yeah. This may be a bad idea, but it's what I'm feeling called to right now. It's what I think could be a next best step. Or it might just be the only available step because the uncertainty is looming so largely. You know what I'm suddenly seeing in the sequence of these conversations is that his proposal of the Leaky Cauldron, which is shut down.

I think creates space for Harry to then say Grimmauld Place because Grimmauld Place true is not ideal. But like I think this is kind of softened the resistance to a place that has risk. It's kind of opened that door to taking that kind of action. So I'm suddenly seeing how Ron has kind of made way for Harry in some way with his suggestion and in a few pages time.

Yeah, I love that. And that happens so often. It's a brainstorm. The worst option came first and then we can get to the better option. Exactly. I'm thinking about, I live far away geographically from my family and there is an interesting experience that I think a lot of us

will have, you know, when you see people you love dearly, you know, a couple of times a year, but you kind of see what's changed more quickly that way. Sometimes living in proximity, you don't notice things changing as much.

And so I'm just thinking as my parents start aging, there's a different quality to being in person that you're able to pick up on information that maybe isn't shared in conversation. And so I'm just thinking about the importance of presence and the importance of proximity in these coming, hopefully decades, you know? Right. And how it can feel so good to put eyes on something. And the Leaky Cauldron is a familiar place.

iconic space for them. And if it looks different, then they can deduce something bad has happened, right? Exactly. If it's not just empty and closed down, but it's filled with Death Eaters or, you know, whatever, they know that it's even worse than they suspected. Yeah. Or alternatively, if it's filled with people meeting to overthrow Voldemort, right? Like it could also be better than they expected. That's right. Yeah. That's interesting. Thanks, Courtney. That's great. Yeah. It was my pleasure.

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But there is a solution. A new proposal before Congress would close this loophole and ensure these foreign investors pay taxes, just like the actual plaintiffs have to.

It's a common sense move that discourages frivolous and abusive lawsuits and redirects resources back into American jobs, innovation and growth. Only President Trump and congressional Republicans can deliver this win for America and hold these foreign investors accountable. Contact your lawmakers today and demand they take a stand to end foreign funded litigation abuse. Well, let's hear from one of our listeners. We've got an anonymous voicemail today. Let's take a listen.

This is a blessing for Nick, the ghost of Gryffindor Tower. In book two, we see Nick really down from his rejection from the headless hunt. He's very upset about it. And then mostly we never hear about that again, except in book three, we get this one paragraph. It says, the feast finished with an entertainment provided by the Hogwarts ghosts.

They popped out of the walls and tables to do a bit of formation gliding. Nearly headless Nick, the Gryffindor ghost, had a great success with a reenactment of his own botched beheading. So Nick does get to do what he was dreaming of. He's performing in front of a crowd. He's entertaining folks. He made it happen. This is not in the text, but I choose to believe that it was Nick's actions that made...

that group happen. And so I want to congratulate him for that. And I hope that those of us who are facing our own setbacks, our own rejection letters from the headless hunt can be like him. I hope that we can feel our sorrow without getting stuck in it and that we can fulfill our dreams, even if not in exactly the shape that we first imagined. Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate that voicemail and thinking about

how little we see of the ghosts anyway. And so to get that callback is pretty fun as a reader. And to think about what it means when you've been told you can't do something, but then you're able to do it. And that can be really small. It doesn't have to be your wildest dream. But that sense of boldness and achievement, even if it's just you that's enjoying it, it doesn't have to be about the person who said you couldn't. So I hope we all get a little bit of that. Beautiful.

Yeah, I hope Nick is causing good trouble in Hogwarts in this book, even though we don't get to hear about it. Thanks so much. Well, it's time for us now to remember members of our community who have been loved and lost. And this week we want to honor Kurt Walther, who was 66, a father, husband, and endlessly generous with a true soul of an artist. Jim Hall, who was 76, a community leader and a devoted father.

and Joseph and Angelina Rini, who were 96 and 97, beloved grandparents and married for 70 years. May their memory be a blessing. Well, Courtney, who would you like to bless as we come to the end of this chapter? I am choosing to bless Hermione today. And at first, whenever I was thinking about her, my immediate reason for blessing her was because of the preparedness that she begins this chapter with.

And I thought about how seen I felt in that moment and how often I have to do that and what the invisible labor is. The fact that she was able to do it and no one knew that she was doing it means that it was all in her head. And so that felt like reason enough to bless her. But then I also thought about the moment at the end of the chapter where they get settled into Grimauld Place and she says, I don't want to be alone tonight. Can we grab the sleeping bags and sleep in the common space? And so first...

So for her to also have the vulnerability to ask for exactly what she needed in that moment also made me feel really seen and encouraged. So I just want to bless Hermione both for being so prepared and also for...

Just telling her best friends what she needs when she needs it. Yeah, I love that moment. It's funny. I want to bless Harry for moments at the end of this chapter, too, because and maybe it's kind of the inverse. You know, Hermione is encouraging him not to let this connection with Voldemort happen. But Harry doesn't have power over it. It is an overwhelming connection.

embodied sensation and he has to say at the end of the chapter like oh i'm going to the loo just to get some privacy to like succumb to this enormous feeling that's happening in his body and he lies down and he's taken into this horrific vision where he sees you know what voldemort is seeing in his anger and so i guess i want to bless harry that even in the moments where we are

With the people closest to us. Right. We can still feel moments of loneliness. Or difference. Or separation. And he literally has to take himself. Out of that community space. In order to be okay. Because I think he wouldn't be able to.

safely navigate what's happening to him or he wouldn't feel like he was able to safely navigate what's happening to him with Ron and Hermione there so yeah just for the moments where we feel disconnected even with the folks closest to us a blessing for Harry well next week we are reading book 7 chapter 10 Creature's Tale through the theme of resilience and Vanessa will be back fear not but

But for now, very, very grateful we got to chat, Courtney. And so glad that you're part of the Not Sorry team. Me too. Thank you so much for having me. I'll see you in Prince Edward Island for our Anne of Green Gables pilgrimage. I can't wait to meet up. It's going to be great.

Just a reminder, you can find ad-free episodes on Apple Podcasts and more about our programming on NotSorryWorks.com. This was a Not Sorry production, a feminist production company, and we're sponsored by the Fetzer Institute. Our executive producer is someone I've never met, Vanessa Zolton. We're edited and produced by AJ Aramas. Our music is by Ivan Paisao and Nick Boll, and we're distributed by Acast. A big thanks to everyone in Minerva's book club, Averill, Amanda C., Amanda S.,

Amber, Amy, Ashley, Danny, Emil, Esther, Gregoire, Casey, Kelsey, Kriti, Kyle, Marina, Nadia, and Sita. And thanks to our anonymous listener for this week's voicemail. Thanks also to Ariana Nettleman, Julia Argi, Nikki Zolton, Matt Potts, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, Stephanie Purcell, and to you, Courtney Brown. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you. I'll see you next week. I can't wait to meet up. It's going to be great. Just a tiny little island meetup.

Yeah, just a cute beach walk with us and 15 other wonderful pilgrims.

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It's a common sense move that discourages frivolous and abusive lawsuits and redirects resources back into American jobs, innovation, and growth. Only President Trump and congressional Republicans can deliver this win for America and hold these foreign investors accountable. Contact your lawmakers today and demand they take a stand to end foreign-funded litigation abuse. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Let's talk about an elite green flag being a cat dad.

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