Glauc Talk: What the Cardiac Arrest Anniversary Feels Like—For Both of Us
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Knock, knock, hi. Knock, knock, hi.

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Knock Knock High with the Glockenfleckens. I am Dr. Glockenflecken, Will Flannery here. I am Lady Glockenflecken, Kristen Flannery. Thank you for joining us. This is a very special episode. This is today, not today, but this week is the five-year anniversary of my cardiac arrest. That's right. May 11th of 2020. That's right. I am...

I went to bed one night and then started gasping for breath. Kind of. Kind of. Loud snoring. More of some snoring sound, yeah. And Kristen realized something was wrong and called 911. They walked her through how to do CPR and you did 10 consecutive minutes of chest compressions. That's right. So this is...

We're going to be talking a lot about this today because a lot of reflection, a lot of what's changed in our life, what are we still struggling with about this whole thing. It was obviously a big turning point. And if you want to hear the whole story, we're going to link to one of our prior episodes where we talked with one of the paramedics.

who responded that night to our house. We had him on our podcast, Lieutenant Greg. And so you can hear a lot more of the details of the story. Today is more just looking back and looking forward. Five years out. We're five years out. And so I think it'd be helpful for people who have had something

Like this, a major medical event, who are obviously still affected by it years later because we're all still affected by it in one way or the other. Right. And you have somehow promised to still make it funny. So I don't want to turn anyone away. Well, yeah, we got a little bit. But also, it's people I think will learn from this too. But before, I want to do something before I talk about one thing. I have an interesting story.

um question for you this is not related to the cardiac arrest so we're going to do this first and then we'll get into like the the the whole thing okay um there was a uh a thread on reddit that got passed around you call it a thread it thread i think people probably do that that got passed around on social media on x in particular on twitter i made a little joke about it

Being like, this is why I always will have content to come, you know, to use. So I'm just going to, I'm going to pose this to you because I'm interested as a non-medical person who experiences the medical field mostly just as a patient for the most part. A patient and a... My point is you're not, you don't practice medicine. Correct. So I am, I'm going to present this to you and I want to hear your like sincere thoughts. Okay. So...

Let's say you go to see an orthopedic surgeon. Okay. They do an MRI of your thoracic spine. They order an MRI. Okay. You have some kind of problem. Okay. The radiologist reads the study and finds an incidental aortic aneurysm. Okay. In addition to whatever bone stuff was going on. Who should tell you about this finding? Hmm.

I mean, ideally, I would want a cardiologist to tell me about it. But I think in practice, how that might work is...

Like not manage it. Just tell me. Who should call you to talk to you about? See, this is why you shouldn't ask me questions. Because I'm going to say, well, nowadays you get your results on my chart. Let's assume you just have to hear from it from somebody. Your gut feeling. Who do you feel like would call you? My gut feeling was the radiologist. Really? Because he found it. Or she found it.

So it would be like, hey, I was looking at your images. I just thought you should know you have this incidental finding. And so I recommend that you follow up with a cardiologist. Interesting. Because in reality, that's not what happens. So and this is this like huge argument between lots of people on social media about this. OK. Because this Reddit thread.

which was the title of his ortho once radiologist to manage all incidental findings. And by manage, it's like you see something that's not something. You call the patient, you, you know, make the referral for the patient to go to the doctor they need to go to. And a lot of people, I'd say mostly the medical professionals, um,

are like, no, that's not the way this works. The person that orders the imaging study should be the one that manages that. Now, obviously, the orthopedic surgeon is not going to manage, going to treat, they're not going to treat an aortic aneurysm. They're going to send you over to the cardiologist. They should be the one to refer you to the doctor you need to see for that thing. Okay. Did I tell you something as a patient? What? You don't care? I don't care who tells me. It's just somebody tell me.

I don't care. It doesn't make a difference to me. But it's interesting in your mind, like thinking from the patient's perspective that you would just, oh yeah, the radiologist would call me. Yeah. Cause if you see something, say something. So it's just been kind of fascinating to, to hear people's, what people think about this. And like some people are like more on the ortho side. I might be a little colored my, my perspective because when you had,

one of your testicular cancer diagnoses. It was from a radiologist. Like that's who diagnosed you. That's true. That's true. And I was there and I saw that. So I don't know. I don't know if I'm being completely objective or impartial, but yeah, that's what went through my mind. Radiology. And part of the issue is that, that the radiologists, they don't have

all the clinical information. Like they're told by the, let's say in this example, the orthopedic surgeon, that there's some kind of radiculopathy, like they're having some weakness in their arm. That's why they're getting the MRI. But that thing, that incidental finding, they have no context for. And so should they be the one who's never seen the patient

who's never, doesn't know any of your history other than what the orthopedic surgeon provided about the spine, should they be the one to tell you this information not knowing anything about your history? Or should it be... They can't see your chart? Not all the times.

That's as, but that's not even that great, right? Ideally, it's someone who actually knows you. But I mean, like, if this was an issue that you know that you have, it should be in your chart somewhere that you had it. But an aortic aneurysm, isn't that an emergency? It sounds like an emergency. Well, not necessarily like a, like an emergent emergency thing. It can be something that can be managed as an outpatient. Okay. Or maybe not an outpatient, but.

Urgently, but not emergently, right? Yeah. So anyway. Well, yeah. I mean, if the radiologist doesn't have all the information, but does the orthopedic surgeon have all the information either? Does he know about your heart? Well, if he's planning on maybe surgery for you, like they should have a general sense of the medical issues you have, but also he's met you.

Right. And so I'd say most people would say that, OK, you're ordering the study. Yeah, it had some kind of incidental finding, but it's still your patient. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Either let the patient know yourself or call the primary care doctor or the cardiologist or whoever it is that's more managing like the general medical issues of that patient.

What I don't want is I have an urgent issue and two doctors are arguing about who needs to tell me. Let me tell you that. Fair enough. Fair enough. I can see both sides of it, but also I don't think it's really reasonable for a radiologist who's

Who's probably reading hundreds of studies a day to all of a sudden they see an incidental finding. Okay. They got a, they try to look up the clinical information on the patient and find, you know, figure out, you know, and figure out who they're going to refer that patient to who might be in their network. And, and, you know, just as I don't, I just don't in the workflow of things that doesn't seem real.

So anyway, I don't know. It's an interesting kind of experiment. Yeah, well, I mean, as a patient, I don't know what the back end looks like. So, yeah, those points make sense. You just want somebody. And quickly. Somebody to reach out and quickly. Yeah. All right. Well, let's take a... Speaking of aortas. Yeah, let's talk about hearts. Should we take a break and then dive into it? Okay. Let's do that.

Hey, Kristen. Yeah. I've been, you know, grossing you out about these Demodex mites, although I'm not sure why they look like adorable. Well, these are cute, but it's the real ones that kind of freak me out a little bit. Yeah, but I have some new facts to share with you about Demodex. Oh, great. All right. These mites have likely lived with us for millions of years. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Does that make you feel better? No. Like they're passed down through close contact, especially between mothers and babies. Oh, wow. Such a special gift for our daughters. They're born, they live, they crawl around, and then they die on your eyelids and in your lash follicles. Their entire life cycle lasts about two to three weeks, all spent on your eyelids. Well, thank you for that. This isn't helping, is it? No. How do I get rid of them? Well, it's...

It's fun to gross you out, but we do have all of these. It's really common, but there is a prescription I drop to help with these now. Okay. That probably excites you. That makes me feel better. Any way to get rid of them, right? That's right. All right. Sign me up. Visit MitesLoveLids to learn more about demodex blepharitis, which is the disease that these little guys cause. Sure. Again, that's M-I-T-E-S-L-I-D-E-X.

LoveLids.com to learn more about Demodex and Demodex Blufferitis and how you can get rid of it. All right. It's been five years. Can you believe that? Yeah. Is it okay to mention the four-year curse at this point? Sure. Because we're done with it. Well, I think you should tell the people about the four-year curse. So, I mean...

It's a three to four year curse, actually. I'm not generally a superstitious person, but I was diagnosed with testicular cancer and then four years later, there's four. Are you sure? Yeah. I've been saying four for like years. Well, you've been wrong. What are the years? What were they? 2011? It was 2013. 2013. 2016. Are you sure? Yes, because of how old the children were. Oh, okay. Okay.

Anyway, three to four years. So first cancer, second cancer, cardiac arrest. All those things happened like within three to four years of each other. Yeah. First cancer, three years go by. Second cancer, four years go by. Cardiac arrest. I guess by that logic, five years go by. So maybe we're not out of the woods. Oh, God. It's not real. Don't worry about it. I'm going to be worried this entire year. No. Something's going to happen.

Okay. Well, if it does, you've got your little shotgun flucking in there to take care of it. I do. I now, so five years later, I still have my implantable defibrillator here. And I have five-ish years to go until I have to get my battery replaced. That's the first thing I think about when I hear it's been five years is, oh no, we're halfway there.

Yeah. Because I've been dreading that appointment since you got it. Oh, me too. So I'm not looking forward to that. So that's coming up. And why are we dreading it? Well, because whenever they put a defibrillator in you, they have to check to make sure it works, which means they pace your heart rate.

to an unsustainable level to where your heart goes into ventricular fibrillation. And then they test to make sure that your defibrillator, the leads will recognize that and then fire to bring the heart back into normal rhythm.

I mean, you're asleep during this whole thing, but it's terrifying because they kind of like, they kind of kill you in a way. Yeah. And you know that they're doing that going in. So yes, you are asleep while it happens, but you do have. You got to be consented for that. Leading up to it, the knowledge that this is happening. And then when they do that, they have, when they do the pacing, they do have like paddles on you, like backup, just in case.

the defibrillator doesn't fire. But still, what if the paddles don't work? What if nothing works? What if they do too good a job of killing you? So it was extremely scary. One of the scariest moments of my life in pre-op listening to my

anesthesiologists described this to me, not my anesthesiologist, the electrophysiologist described this to me and explaining exactly how it was going to happen. So I haven't had to think about it for a while. I still got a ways to go, but knock on wood, this thing has not fired yet. So I have done well over the past five years, but let's talk a bit about, here's one question.

What would we have done differently? Knowing what we know now, five years later, about just everything that came with me having a cardiac arrest. Is there anything you would have done differently? Is this a way to ask if I regret doing CPR? Let's not explore that. I did ask you that one time, though. I said, because I was wondering. I said...

Are you at all, you know, even a tiny little part of you, are you at all kind of not upset, but like, do you regret that I did that and we resuscitated you? And I think you were like, what? No. I still feel like I was about to say exactly that. Yeah. What? No. Well, because what I was thinking is, okay, obviously it's not ideal to die at 34 years old. Yep.

However, you did die in your sleep. Hmm.

So if I... When the time comes, that's always how I have wanted to die, is just in my sleep. Maybe not suddenly, but, like, I don't want to necessarily experience it, you know? So that is a nice, like, peaceful way to go. So that's why I asked. I mean, obviously, neither one of us want you not to live past 34, but...

It was just from that angle. I can tell you unequivocally until this very moment, I have never once thought about that. So, no, I am. I'm very much glad when I woke up in the hospital. I remember just how confused I felt. Yeah.

And I still remember like really like bits and pieces of those that first few hours after I woke up. Like I don't remember the conversations I had with people, but I remember the things I saw in the room, like little flashbulb memories of certain things like the time.

TV in the room and the bed and the nurse, Roger, and our FaceTime call. I've kind of, I don't know, how soon after I woke up did we have that FaceTime? Yeah, that wasn't right away. That wasn't right away? Well, if you're remembering Roger, if that's the first nurse you remember, he was your last nurse. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. So that was like a day later.

I mean, you were in the hospital until, let's see, it was a Monday morning that you arrested and then you were home Thursday evening. Oh, okay. So if you're remembering Roger, you're probably remembering Wednesday or Thursday. Wow, okay. But they brought me out of sedation. It was like 24 hours after. Yeah, Tuesday. It was Tuesday. So I was awake on Tuesday. When did you first talk to me? Do you remember? I first talked to you, I think, on Tuesday. Okay.

I think I have part of that conversation. It occurred to me while we were having it. This is going to sound weird for people that don't know me, but it occurred to me to like record some of that, like a screen recording or whatever on your phone, you know? And that's not as weird as it sounds. It's because I have always...

dealt with like you deal with things by humor and I tend to deal with things by documenting. So because it lets you like process it at your own pace when you're ready and, you know, remember little details you might have forgotten and process that, you know. So I recorded a little bit of that because like

Obviously, that was a very important, meaningful, impactful conversation that we have had. But also, just the way you were talking and the way your face looked, it was just different. Did I sound groggy? Was I talking? I didn't get to talk to you. I guess we should point out, this was May of 2020. So this was pre-vaccines.

We didn't know if masks worked or not. It was chaos. So I was not allowed to be with you. So I was just waiting at home for somebody to call and tell me something. And then you were in the hospital all by yourself. So I didn't get to see when you first came out of sedation what you were doing. I heard that before they sedated you,

like even on the way to the hospital in the ambulance, you were already trying to like pull out the cords and stuff like you were kind of not enjoying your situation. And the same thing, they had to increase your sedation once they sedated you because you were kind of doing the same thing. So that's what I remember about that. And then

The first conversation you were just really, well, the first one that I had with you, you were really confused. You were in that loop, the short-term amnesia loop. So you would ask a question. I would answer it. You would react.

You would ask the question. I would answer it. You would react. It was a little bit like 50 First Dates. Do you remember what I would like a question that I... Yeah, it was just, what? Basically. What happened? Because, right, Lisa, like, that's what I was thinking, too. Like, how did this... A perfectly healthy 34-year-old goes to bed and then dies in his sleep. What? Yeah.

Oh, man. And for the, and just for people that aren't that familiar with the story, we still don't have a good explanation for why it happened. Any explanation. Yeah. I got people at first thought it was like COVID related. Yeah. Can we just put that to bed? Like it was before any of that. Well, and I was, I was tested. Yes, we were tested for COVID. We both were negative. And so.

And if you ever hear us, because we do a lot of speaking, public speaking. Yeah. If you ever hear us talk at a conference, please do not come up and ask us. Was it the vaccine? When I got vaccinated. Yeah. Because that is a question that pisses me off.

More than anything else. And so don't just leave that be. First of all, just no. Second of all, it was before the vaccines even existed. Do your math. There was nothing. And so anyway, and I still have memory loss around the whole thing. Yeah. You don't remember. I don't remember a lot. But like you said, you come online when Roger was your nurse. So you've lost probably three days. Anything else you would have done differently? Um...

I don't know about myself. There's a lot that I wish had happened differently. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I could have done anything. I think you did a pretty good job. Yeah. I mean, I did. I think you did a pretty good job. I'm good in a crisis. I learned that. And then I learned, I don't know, six months ago that the reason I'm good in a crisis is because I have ADHD. And I did not know that.

So good for that. Hooray. I can tell you there's some things I probably would have done differently. What's that? I would have gone to bed last night, that night. I would have gone to the hospital and made them preemptively admit me. Yeah. Well, okay. So that does actually bring, there is one thing I wish I had done differently, which is

Okay, so your cardiac arrest was about... Was that 445? Mm-hmm. At about 3, 330, you had actually woken up and gone into the bathroom attached to our bedroom. Mm-hmm. And I woke up just enough to be aware that you were in there. And then...

You were in there for a couple minutes and then you went, it sounded like, I didn't have my eyes open, but just listening. It sounded like you went to the counter and like maybe turned on the sink, but then you were like muttering something. And I couldn't make out what it was. It sounded like you were, again, upset is too strong, but like,

Agitated. Agitated. Yes. Thank you. You sounded the tone was a little bit agitated, like annoyed, maybe or irritated. Speaking to my demons. Well, what I thought at the time was, well, yeah, you just woke up at three in the morning and that sucks. And I know you and it sounded like you do when you're like, oh, man, you know. So that's what I thought happened.

In retrospect, I really wish that I would have said, hey, what's going on? You know, because I have always wondered and I will never know. I've always wondered if there was something happening beforehand that we could have just gone to the hospital at that point. Hmm.

So I don't know. It might be nothing, but it might be related. You do like to try to talk to me whenever I sleepwalk and sleep talk. I don't think you were asleep. I think you were awake. Of course, I don't remember it. Yeah. But yeah, I always wonder, like, were you feeling something uncomfortable? And that's why you were just standing at the sink, just kind of muttering. I didn't put on dress pants. No, and you didn't get anything. I mean, when they came in, of course. Which I've done before.

That's true. Yeah, that is true. No, you didn't do that. But they did ask, like, did he take anything? Yeah. And I was like, I don't think so. And like, one funny part is I went into the bathroom. Yeah. And looked around. And I was like, no, I can tell you he didn't take anything because nothing's laying on the counter. Yeah.

I would not have cleaned up after myself. No, you would not have. And there were no signs that you got anything out. And so I was pretty confident saying, I really don't think so.

Let's see. I could have slept on the floor. Yeah. That would have been more helpful for you doing the chest compressions if I was on the floor. Yes. Yeah, that's a question we get. Why did you do it on the bed? And that was because there was a nightstand, obviously, to the side of the bed. And you are very large and I am very small. But besides that, just three or four months before, I had had...

A cervical disc replacement. And so I was still I was in pretty good shape, but I was still healing from that surgery. And so I was like, I don't think that I can get him off the bed without because I would just have to drag you. I don't think I can do it without hitting your head on that nightstand.

just the way the angle was. And then I also don't think I can do that without hurting myself. And then where will we be? Then I will not be able to help you. Quick question. Did the radiologist call you about your, your MRI of your neck? Good question. I don't know. Don't remember. Probably not. Here's one. Here's a, here's one. Um,

unlocking the back door. Yes. That would have been good. Would have saved us some structural damage. Like we, we had our garage door. You gave them very astutely in the middle of chest compressions, gave them the code to our garage door. Yes. Which I still find fascinating that you're able to even like pull this stuff out of your head. Uh, but, but,

But our door to our house was locked. Yeah, and I gave him the garage code because sometimes we locked that door at night, but sometimes we didn't because there was the big garage door on the other side of it. So, you know, I didn't worry about it a lot of the time. But it just so happened that it was locked that night, and I couldn't remember whether we had locked it or not. But we did. Busted through. And they had to bust through, and that also added some minutes. Yeah. Like, they thought that it was going to be open. Yeah.

So they had to go back and get something prepared. I think they had to call for backup for tools. In the call, you can hear her say their backup just arrived. Oh, that's what that meant. Yeah. I've never known what that meant. Yeah. I didn't know what it meant at the time either. But that is what you can hear me like, are they here? Are they here? And I could hear them. Our window was open. And so I could hear them outside. Yeah.

So I was like, why aren't they coming in? Why aren't, you know, what's going on? And it was because they couldn't get in the door and they had to get like tools and people had to bring the tools. Gotcha. Let's take a break and come right back.

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All right, we're back. Let's talk about, this is a question that I get asked sometimes, so I'll pose it to you. How do you feel like our life has been changed now, still, five years later? Like what's... How has it not? I mean, you know, I guess from a, it's mostly probably like mental health type of problems, issues. Yeah, so I think it's been changed.

In good ways and bad ways. The bad ways are obvious. Yes, that's a hugely traumatic thing to happen. Something people don't talk about in the CPR conversations. Like, yes, we need to have more people learn CPR because it can be a very effective tool for saving lives.

But what gets left out is that it is very traumatic to do CPR for a bystander, just a regular old person. And even for a healthcare person, if it is on someone that you love. So I had both of those things going for me. It was extremely traumatic. And I don't mean that like traumatic gets thrown around a lot these days. No, it was like clinically traumatic. Like I went into...

A dissociation for a long time. You know, PTSD type stuff happened. It was very difficult. And I think a lot of that is... I am much better now, but I don't know if I will ever fully not be somewhere in that space. Do you have triggers? I don't like...

watching people do CPR. So like... Like in shows and stuff? Well, shows are different, but like we speak at a lot of, you know, CPR advocacy types of events. And often at those events, they will be training people to do CPR and they make it this big party with music and they bring in like a fire truck with the lights and stuff. And it's just all of that is extremely triggering because there were lights there. I was doing CPR. There was definitely not happy music.

But I get why they do that because they want people to learn it. But like for someone who has done it and is then there, it's...

It's a little bit... I don't take it personally because I know they don't mean it this way, but it is a little bit... Yeah, and it's insulting. It's like they're not thinking about how that will affect people who've been traumatized by this thing. But I get it. That's the minority of people that are there, and I get why they do it that way. But that's definitely a trigger. And also when you make a funny noise in your sleep,

So you're still kind of. Yeah. Or even just snoring. I don't like snoring because it sounds just like it sounded when you were doing the agonal breathing. So you still nudge. Like, do you make me stop snoring? Yeah. Yeah. I'll turn you over. You don't know. You don't remember this when I do this. I do it almost every night.

I turn you over. Yeah, because that's a very unsettling sound for me. And then, you know, I always was checking. Ever since we had babies, I checked to make sure they're breathing every night. Because you get so, it's like so ingrained to you about SIDS, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, like, I always just checked. Yeah.

And so, um, I know you don't like the, I've never stopped checking. I don't, I know you don't like the song staying alive anymore. Yeah, I don't. That's a trigger because that is what I was thinking of as I was doing the compressions. Um, because you know, I had learned 15 years before or whatever, that that's the right tempo. There's new songs now. There are new songs. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of them actually, like American Heart Association does a good

job of like putting out the songs that have the right tempo so you can pick one that suits you well I think it's it's amazing that you're the advocacy work that you specifically do yeah so that's one of the good ways I think that our life has changed but hearing contrasting you know that with the trauma you experience every time you do you talk about it and you go to I mean it's pretty remarkable I mean like

On my side of things, like I didn't experience like all the, I was sedated, right? I wasn't there. Right. You have your own experience that was also traumatic. Yeah. But it wasn't the acute event itself. Right. And I, you know, how is it like on my side? That was what actually got me really interested in the healthcare system. Yeah.

That's where all these healthcare insurance videos came from. It's, it's kind of, yeah, I, I cringe a little bit because it's like the, the common trope of, you don't really care about something until it happens to you. Yeah. I, I hate that, but it was, but it is, it's the case. It was the case for me, right? I,

We had this, we had health insurance issues as we were trying to like put our lives back together after this. And then I was on the phone every other day with, with Cigna trying to like, you know, get them to do what they were supposed to do. And that I've, there's so much anger and frustration around that. The angry phone calls, it eventually social media posts. And, um, and that, that definitely gave me a different perspective. Yeah.

that a lot of our patients, you know, my patients have. And so that, that's what kicked off the whole healthcare system stuff. And then Jimothy grew out of that. Yeah. Jimothy's the hero. One thing. So one thing I get a lot because I'm, I think a lot of it is because I'm a woman on the internet, but you know, I have talked about this concept of co-survivor. Like I co-survived that experience and,

because it was very traumatic for me. It was a thing that I did and survived, right? The CPR especially, but also just the managing your care for you, like trying to speak for you when you're not able to, keeping track of things, giving updates to family and friends, just having to say it over and over and over again when I really needed help.

support, but I was having to be the support to everybody else as I was telling them. Like lots of ways this happened. To me, I also survived it. But what I hear a lot is,

Oh, just like a woman to take something that happened to a man and make it all about her. I have started screenshotting these comments when I get them. And someday I'm going to do a post where I just show all the things that these people have said. And it's always, well, I won't, you can guess who it always is. But do you, but it does speak to an underlying thing.

question of like and this is something that I think co-survivors feel is like I shouldn't be feeling bad I shouldn't ask for help because it didn't happen to me to me like in my body yeah like you're the patient right right right so

we all should just focus on you, myself included. And I don't, I shouldn't need anything and I shouldn't feel bad because you know what, however bad I feel, you have it worse kind of is the thinking.

And so now when I talk about co-survivorship, I hear a lot like people want to make it this this binary like a zero sum thing that like if I need support, that means that I am pulling it from you as the patient or the survivor. So, you know, how do you how do you look at that? I know how I look at that. But how do you look at that? Yeah, that makes me angry, you know, whenever I hear comments like that or I see them. And because it's.

I don't exist in a vacuum. This didn't happen. These types of things have ripple effects. And the joke I always say during our shows is I went to bed one night and I woke up two days later and I didn't have any underwear on. I had no idea what the hell was going on. But every single second between when I went to bed and when I woke up,

was hell on earth for you right and and this is that it's okay to recognize that which is just okay like we should be recognizing that yeah i've i've got my own trauma that i i don't like to talk about a lot right um and dealing with that trying to in my own way um

But that doesn't negate your trauma. Exactly. You talking about your trauma doesn't take away from my trauma. I just don't understand that. And I would like you to, you know, I wish you could just ignore that. But I understand how painful that is to hear. And hopefully, well, the work you do, though, is important in just showing that.

Right. And that's why I screenshot them, because one day I want to point out that when co-survivors speak about their experience, this is one of the reactions. And so that makes it harder for us to speak out about our experience. And so I'm happy to do that on behalf of us all. But I just do think it's important that it's not a zero-sum game. And the reason that I don't talk about...

you know, that I'm only talking about co-survivorship, I'm only talking about me, is because that was my experience. That is what I can speak to. You have to speak to the survivor perspective. I do not have that perspective, so I'm not going to speak for you. And also, I know you don't want to speak about it. And so it wouldn't be my place to say anything that is your experience. So...

That's an unfortunate little thing, but hopefully I can at least move the needle a little bit in changing that. I think you are. And it sucks that you're getting comments like that because the comments I get are like, did you see a white light? Yeah. Did you? Well, you get the vaccine comment. Did you? Well, yeah, that sucks. But it's like people want to know, what did you stick? Well, now you have to answer. You brought it up. No, there's nothing. Yeah.

Like I said, I went to bed and I woke up. I just wasn't in my bed anymore. Right. And I was wearing a gown. I wish you could remember, you know, what you must have thought at that time. I mean. I kind of wish you had recorded our entire initial FaceTime conversation. Five years later, I would have loved to see that. Yeah. Well, I can show you the piece I have. I can imagine. I mean, because even like two weeks later, I called my best friend and told him.

And then like the next day I called him again and told him again, having never remembered that I told him. And he's like, yeah, you told me. And you're like, I did? I think that was unsettling for you to not be able to.

remember your life yes that that yeah even just like the day before i didn't think that was very funny at first now i do but yeah it was more scary like man what is going on here yeah um and oh another thing i would have done differently i wouldn't i would have taken more time off from work yeah

Yep. Because I'm like, because, because I'm a you people guy, uh, as a doctor and I have to work. I gotta, I gotta go back. They can't cardiac arrest. Can't take time off. I took about a month. Because you had to, you were not cleared to work. You would have gone back sooner.

But probably should have taken more. Yeah. Because, and the biggest issue on it, physically I was able to do the job. It was fine. But like, I was not there like mentally. Right. And it was, it was, it was hard as a physician. Um, I now, I now know exactly what empathy fatigue is because I had no empathy.

Yeah. For other people. Right. And that's a scary place to be in as a physician. Yeah, you don't want someone operating on you that is in that place. Like I would, and it didn't last long, but when I first came back, it was like people would come in and tell me their issues about dry eye. And all I would think was like,

Who cares? I just had a cardiac arrest. Don't you realize what just happened to me, person that just met me five minutes ago? Yeah, exactly. It's like, that's not rational thought. And that's not how I think. That's not how you're trained to think as a physician. And so it kind of scared me. And unfortunately, it didn't last very long. And I kind of readjusted.

you know, how, or I just got further out from the event. Um, but that's probably one thing I should probably should. Yeah. So that's a sign. If you are going back to work from something and you're feeling that way, maybe just go back home for a little longer. Just take a little time, you know, just watch some movies, some video games. I think it's telling to, you know, talking about how, of course you went back to work. The, uh,

First, the very first call that I made after the 911 call was to your partner to tell him that you would not be at work that day. So he had better reschedule your patients. It's pretty thoughtful of you. Because I knew that's what you would be freaked out about if you just didn't show up to work. Yeah. That would, you would hate that. Yeah. So I thought, well, I know this is what he would want me to do. So I'm going to do that first. Did you?

get my partner on the phone or did he, I left a message, but he called back later. Like we, we were speaking while you were in the, um, in the hospital because he was kind of helping me understand. There were, there were a few people that were helping me understand, you know, all the terminology because again, I couldn't be there. So all I got were these little updates every now and then. Um, and then I had to kind of dig into the, I just did everything I could to just write it all down. Yeah. And then I would have to go in and like figure out what it meant.

And what all those words were. Like, I remember I didn't realize people were using the word code. They said you coded when they were talking about it on Twitter later. Yeah. And like, this was after you tweeted about it. And I, that was, that was news to me at the time. Like, I didn't realize that technically you had died.

You know what I mean? I know that sounds weird, but like you just are not in a rational headspace in times like that. So I knew your heart had stopped. Yeah. But...

I guess it depends on your definition of death. Exactly. Yeah. So you were able to be resuscitated. Like I had no brain death. Right. But from like a... A heart perspective. Yeah. Practical sense. Like I was not among the living. They took you downstairs to the hardwood floor to work on you once they got there. And I even... They hooked you up to stuff and I heard a flatline. And I remember clocking that it's a flatline and I know what a flatline is, but I still didn't

Put two and two, like it just, I was probably the defensive mechanism or something that like I, it didn't, so it didn't occur to me until later that like, oh yeah, you died. Um, so that was, that was kind of a, a weird thing. What was it the day of discharge that I tweeted about it? That must've been. You were still in the hospital. Yeah. I don't think it was even the day of discharge. Okay.

I think it was before that. I don't remember. And again, you were there all by yourself. You were probably very bored. I was. I was. But I was aware and enough to remember my password. Yeah, I had deleted everything before I took your phone up there. That's another thing. I knew you would freaking want your phone so that you could get on Twitter because at the time, that's where you spent all your social media time. Yeah.

Yeah. But before I brought it to you, I made sure to delete anything that like you could cause trouble with. So like banking apps, social media apps, email apps, anything like that. I deleted them off your phone. And then I thought, well, if you can manage to put that back on and log in and use it, then you're probably fine. I love that. That's so funny. Well, that's that's not what does it have anything else to add? I think I think we're doing just to sum it all up. You know, they were doing well.

Yeah, all things considered. The kids are doing well. We didn't talk about the kids. Yeah, right. We get that question a lot. I mean, look, they were definitely affected. Things have come up. The thing that I always try to point out, because it's just another one of these things you don't think about until you've been through it. They were eight and five at the time. And the eight-year-old kind of sort of knew that.

You know, we told her that you were sick and you needed things that were that we didn't have that were at the hospital to get better. And so you went to the hospital. She she could understand all that. The five year old was just kind of like, OK, you know, and then just went about it. Yeah, that was literally her question. And so as she has gotten older.

it has really sunk in for her. And I noticed that that started at around eight years old. So I think our oldest one was just the right age to be able to kind of process things in real time as they were happening. But the five-year-old barely even remembers it and didn't really clock it at the time. She just remembers that a lot of people kept coming over and bringing us food and bringing them toys. And like, it was great, you know, but as she,

Got to about eight years old and then now she's 10 and it's still continuing. She's doing her own processing of it all and kind of understanding more about what it all meant. So it's not a one and done thing that like, oh yeah, we told them and they were fine and everything's fine. It's like an ongoing as they develop and understand more. Yeah, it's an ongoing process. Well, I think you're an amazing mom for being able to handle that.

Well, I had help. You know, my parents came and took care of the kids while I was dealing. I could not. I was not able. So don't give me too much credit. They were. I had to tell the kids I did do that. Yeah. Yeah. But then I was mostly upstairs on the phone, on the Internet, researching what all this meant. It was the second call. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Your parents. No, no, no. Actually, it was my parents because I needed them to get up here. Oh, yeah. So they lived 40 minutes away at the time. Yeah. So they were close enough to be able to come help, but it was going to take them a while. And I wanted to get up to the hospital. I'm amazed you got them on the phone. Well, yeah. Calling at five in the morning when I never do that, that'll cause some alarm. That's right. So they were here in like 20 minutes. Like they sped a lot. Oh, yeah.

And then after I called my parents, I called your parents. And then I think I called my work to say that I wasn't coming in that day. So that's a lot of events. Five years. Here's the five more. Yeah. All right. More than five. Many more. 20, 30, 50. I don't know. I still be making skits when I'm 90. Probably. You might be the only one left watching them. That's just me. Yeah.

And you liking them. Yeah. Actually, by that point, you won't even like me. It's like, all right, do your thing. Yeah. Well, thank you all for being with us during that recounting of...

of the cardiac arrest in our, our lives since that moment. If you have any stories you want to share, they can, there's lots of ways to email us. Also, it's always to email us lots of ways to reach us. Oh, there are actually a lot of ways to email us. But also if you have any, any questions about this stuff, like that is always interesting for us to know what questions people have. And then also we can, you know, try to answer them for you.

You can email us, knockknockhigh at human-content.com. You can also reach out on our social media platforms. We're on all of them. Hang out with us and our Human Content Podcast family on Instagram and TikTok at humancontentpods. Thanks to all the listeners leaving feedback and reviews. If you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube, that's where you'll find all our episodes.

We can give you a shout out. Like at latent discourse 4357 on YouTube said, how did the emergency physician already know Milo is a little blind?

Maybe he should have been an ophthalmologist. That's right. Good point. A little continuity error on my part. Yep. Whoopsies. Full video episodes are up every week on our YouTube channel at Glock and Plekans. We also have a Patreon. Check that out. Lots of cool perks. Early ad-free episode access, interactive Q&A, live stream events, lots more. Patreon.com slash Glock and Plekan or go to GlockandPlekan.com.

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Those are two words hard to say back to back. A little tongue twister. Editor and engineer, Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Bensfi. To learn about Knock Knock High's program description, analytics policy, submission verification, and licensing terms, and those HIPAA release terms, go to Glock and Flickr.com or reach out to us, knockknockhigh at human-content.com with questions, concerns, or any fun medical puns. Knock Knock High is a human content production. Knock Knock, goodbye. Hey, Kristen, are you good at multitasking?

I mean, as good as you can be. I don't think it's ever like super effective. Yeah. And a lot of physicians are being asked to multitask. Yeah. All the time. It's true. You're on the computer. You're typing away. You're looking at labs. You're trying to listen to the patient. You're doing all these things. That's just, it's not effective. Yeah. But it can help though, you know? What?

Microsoft Dragon Copilot. That can help. Yes, absolutely. This is your AI assistant for workflow and documentation. It helps automate tasks. You can summarize notes and evidence, prep your orders. It can draft referral letters. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And with after-visit summaries as well. You get an after-visit summary. I do. I always read them too. Yeah. I'm a very good student.

Microsoft Dragon Copilot can help you make that. Yeah, that's pretty sweet. I wish I had one of these things for like my job. Yeah. That'd be really nice. Running glockenflecken. Yes. It's a lot of work to make it where you are, you know, presentable to the world. Absolutely. To learn more about Microsoft Dragon Copilot, visit aka.ms slash knock knock high. That's aka.ms slash knock knock high. You've been talked into.

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