ABORTION IS FREEDOM? ft. Sophie Nir
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Welcome to Guys We Fuck, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. Yo, you having sex? I'm Christina Hutchinson. I'm Corinne Fisher. The first choice is to slutty your horny and your shank. Hey, you a slut? Yes. Okay. Let's talk about fucking.

Hello, citizens of planet Earth. A little reminder that there is still a way to listen to Guys Who Fucked without ads, get the regular episodes early, and get all of our bonus episodes. Corinne and I have the most fun doing the bonus episodes of the show. That's where I let loose, okay? And most of the episodes, we just read your emails. We read the craziest emails that we get. And they're, I gotta be honest, they're the most fun for me.

Just sign up. It's still only $29.99 a year or $6.99 monthly. Although if you do the math in a little over four months, you would have paid for the annual subscription. So annual is still a better deal. But you do your body, your choice, your wallet. If you have Spotify, just click on the banner of our show page to sign up. Or if you listen elsewhere, you could get this there too. Go to luminary.link slash GWF promo. That's luminary.link slash GWF promo.

slash GWF promo. Or again, you just go to the top of the Guys We Fuck show page at Spotify and tap on exclusive benefits. Want to email us at sorryaboutlastnightshow at genevallon.com. Today's subject line, I recommended Guys We Fuck to a girl and then she fucked my boyfriend. Sounds about right.

Yeah, girl. That's why I've been warning you. We share too much. Can't say I didn't warn you. Hi, Kurt and Christine, a long-time listener here from New Zealand. I discovered your podcast when I was 19. I am now 28 years old, and you're our daughter. You guys have been a beautiful part of my young adulthood. Never thought I'd have such a story to share, but here we are. I, female, met my partner. Let's call him Craig.

I was like, what's the business? Fucking their employees? Sounds cool. Sounds like a great business. Yeah, I'm sure it was weird. Oh, crazy. Yeah.

Long story short, a few road bumps later, we ended up together now with two young children. Oh, you have kids. Okay. Y'all procreate. Okay. This is real. A few road bumps later, Craig being disrespectful and you putting up with it. Yeah. I'm just guessing. You'll love our bonus episode if you're a luminary subscriber. Yeah. Becoming a mom is no joke. No. Yeah, dude. No. It rips the fabric of your life apart. Yep. Your sense of self and how you see the world. It completely shifts your relationships too. Craig. Oh, iPhone. Yeah.

Craig has many amazing qualities. He's a very talented and creative carpenter. Okay. Okay. Love a guy who can hang a shelf. They're very rare. He knows how to get shit done and he's very personable, has interesting ways of viewing life, is highly ambitious, and we share many of the same goals for the future. He's also a great dad. However, it has been a very hard few years for us with the pregnancies and births of our two children, the ensuing postpartum depression, and him finishing a major renovation project.

Fast forward to November last year, and I decided to move back to New Zealand as I wasn't coping well looking after the kids, mostly on my own in an isolated environment. Yeah, that doesn't sound fun. I wanted to see my family. Craig and I had been planning on a trip to New Zealand anyway, so we thought I'd only be there for a couple weeks earlier than him. We ended up being separated for five weeks as he was struggling to round off his project. Two days after he joined me in New Zealand, I knew something was off, so I asked him if anything had happened while I was gone.

He admitted straight away that something had happened, but seeing my reaction, he freaked out and lied to me about what? It took two days of lies for the truth to come out. He had been sleeping with a 19-year-old backpacker.

That I knew from the homestead on his family's property. It had been going on. It didn't seem like he was really grappling with the age gap there. Nope. Nope. Seemed like he got over it. He was healed. Seemed like his dick just walked into it. Oh, he's healed. He had been going on for weeks. It had been going on for weeks. He had taken her to our family home and was still in contact with her at the time this all came out. Whoa. Okay. Bye, Craig. Whoa. Fucking dick. Whoa. The shock and utter betrayal of it was earth shattering. Yeah, girl. Yeah, girl.

Whoa. The pain was more immense than I'd ever felt. I couldn't eat for weeks. I couldn't think, yo, if I had your fucking baby dude and you fuck a 19 year old,

How can I fuck your boyfriend?

Can you give me more information on how to fuck your boyfriend? Tina girl, you listening, but you ain't listening. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Hey girl, if you're listening, of course I blame Craig mostly. He's 21 years older and is the one with the family and the partner. I just assumed Tina felt good basking in the glow of the interest of an older taken man. Teenage girls especially are highly susceptible to the idea of our worth being inflated by such attention. You know what? You can tell you she listens to the podcast because that was really diplomatically handled. This chick listens to the podcast. She listens. Tina? Tina?

She don't listen. Tina, you're listening, man. I'm listening. You're listening? Yeah. You gotta listen. Yeah. Okay, Tina. Craig claimed he was going through a mental breakdown. Yeah, and he felt like a 19-year-old and was existential about turning 40. Oh, fuck off, Craig. How about you just drink a bottle of wine in the bathtub like the rest of us? And play a tiny violin to no one but yourself and then jerk off to your tears. That, when I left, he felt like he had completely failed. So you failed some more?

He said he didn't know how young Tina was. Oh, God. Yeah, you've only been hanging out with her for fucking half a year. That makes sense. He either chose to remain ignorant. No. Or just all of a sudden didn't care about big age gaps. Yeah. It has made me see Craig in a whole new light. Before the affair, I felt so lucky to have found a diamond in the rough type of guy. Damn. How simultaneously naive and seemingly all-knowing I was back then. Yeah.

Yeah, you listen to the podcast. Yeah.

That maybe he had to choose women a lot younger than him because an older, wiser woman would see his stuntedness and not put up with it. Correct. Nailed it. I see this as an affliction that most straight men carry.

Many men will use us to regulate themselves because they aren't taught or encouraged to do so for themselves. I've become incredibly cynical about love. We are all seeking selfishly in others for what makes us feel better, for what can prop our personal narratives. Rarely is it the noble spiritual deep connection that lots of us wish for. See, this is why I want to date women.

The men don't fucking think about this. The closest I have come to those connections have been with other women. Thank you. You want to date girl? Let's go. Uh, Craig was in deep pain when I left poor Craig, but instead of looking inside himself to see where this pain was coming from, he sought to numb it. He turned his head and there was Tina.

A more than willing participant with her own selfish needs to fulfill through him. The unfairness of it all hit me really hard. And I didn't even have time to have an affair when I was solo parenting our two children for those five weeks. Yeah, tell them. One of them, a 10-month-old baby, still attached to my breast all night long. But I've come to realize that as steamy and passionate as their affair may have been, it's also pretty pathetic too.

Craig owes me big time and I won't accept any less than I need. I will be taking a lot more time for me. A solo vacation somewhere warm. Taking a lover of my own if I wish. Fuck yeah. I mean, sorry, but like no one who, no one's looking at a 40 year old guy and fucking a 19 year old girl and being like, that's awful.

awesome for the guy the only person thinking that's awesome is a 90 year old guy no 40 year old guy i think the 19 year old girl thinks it's awesome too it is true yes because when i was 19 is when i met that one guy who was like 39 yeah gotta say it felt powerful yeah he wasn't married though and then you'll grow had kids he wasn't even dating anybody but then you grow up and then you and you think about that guy and your guy like oh man i was just like fucking a loser dude tina you fucked a loser you fucked a loser yeah

You're a beautiful writer.

Yes.

Dude, Craig don't deserve you. To approach relationships with men, friendships, or lovers from this more self-aware space. There are so many different elements and themes that tangle together in this experience I've been living. It's hard to express it all in email format. Thank you so much for providing this space. I don't think I have any questions, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

I also want anyone else to know that they're going through a similar kind of betrayal. Don't fight the pain. Welcome it as much as you can so it can move through your body. Could not agree with that advice more. Give yourself grace if you express it messily. The chaotic emotions and pain subside eventually, and you have the choice to decide what's

Tina, this girl listens to the show. Okay, Tina? Think about that. If you like the show and you're listening, what the fuck, huh? Yeah, that was a great letter. That's a beautiful one. And to this woman, I don't know your name,

But if you don't have a career in writing, you could if it's interesting to you. I also think, though, it seems like she's keeping the guy. Yeah.

maybe and but she's gonna fuck other people if she wants to i mean i love that for you i mean and i'm i'm just curious to see like how that like what conversation you have like how the dynamic changes yeah that kind of a thing and how sorry is he and how how much easier is he willing to make your life by doing by fucking up majorly like that yeah and how do we know that he's different because it seems like you know he started his relationship with you kind of

In the same way and like you ended up having a family and like being together with him. But, you know, he's choosing not to be present in his life and you are choosing to be present in your life. And it clearly shows by his decision making and your decision making and the way that you've communicated your sentiments here that I hope that he gives you a lot. I hope there's a lot of benefit to keeping him around for you. I don't really care about him.

Oh, man. Some people get a haircut or book a spontaneous trip when life throws them a curveball. But Molly, she went a little further. After a life-changing diagnosis, she dove headfirst into a world of no-strings-attached sex, secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs, sexcapades, and unforgettable adventures. I'm so jealous.

One of my favorite people in the world.

But there's even more to the story. In brand new bonus episodes, host Nikki Boyer sits down with the cast to spill all the spicy details from behind the scenes moments to what it was like bringing Molly's unforgettable journey to life. Desire, friendship, self-discovery, and the ultimate bucket list of pleasures. This is the story that had everyone talking. Listen to Dying for Sex.

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All right. Well, you guys know what I'm going to tell you to do. You're going to head over to CorinneFisher.com. You're going to press the donate button. If you haven't already, make a donation if you're a U.S. resident or an American living abroad. Those are the two people who can do it. And if not, you're going to tell a friend in New York or you're going to also get into the comments of local New York City politics, politics.

articles and be like, Hey, what about Corinne Fisher for mayor? That really does work. Other candidates have people doing it and it works really well. Um, and then I, I did end up doing on Friday, uh, an interview on CBS, which aired yesterday, which was Sunday, uh, called the point with Marsha Clark. If you want to watch that interview, uh, the full interview is available on YouTube. You can just literally type in the point with Marsha Clark.

Sorry, I said Marsha Clark. I was going to say, wait, I wish it wasn't. No, anybody knows my idol. We want to interview her. Marsha Clark has nothing to do with it. I love, I was thinking about how much I love Marsha's though, because I also loved Marsha Kramer who had me on. So it's the point with Marsha Kramer. And so you can just type in the point with Marsha Kramer, Corinne Fisher, and that it's, the full interview will come up on YouTube. Yeah.

Great interview. Really good interview. Thank you so much to Marsha Kramer for having me. And, you know, if you're not in New York City, you might not know, but this woman, she's the chief political correspondent for the CBS New York affiliate. She's truly a legend. Yeah, she is. So it was really special to be on her show. And I think it really speaks to her character, her

and who she is and her fairness that she, you know, had me on when so many other outlets are pretending that I'm not running. So, and, and she's, and she's so done so much more work in politics than many of those people. Um, and has been around for a long time. And I could tell that she thought it was really cool that I was running and also was genuinely interested in my platform and, um,

uh, I think that's really special and cool of her. And her opinion does matter more than other people's. Correct. Correct. So,

So thank you, Marsha. And then, of course, you can join me every Wednesday at 9 p.m. Eastern time on Without a Country. There's so much to talk about in national news. And I also go a lot more in depth about, you know, when I talk about transparency with this political campaign, I go step by step all the things that are happening on Without a Country. But we also do our From Fox to Vox reading every single week. And it's

A good time to really commit to being invested and knowing what's going on before something happens where you need to know what's going on because you will be directly affected. So please join me there. Oh, go ahead, Eric. Do you have dates you want to plug? Yes, I do. Yes, please come and see me. I'll be headlining Vancouver May 1 through 4, and then I'll be –

I'm just reading it. I will be headlining Phoenix, Arizona 522 through 25. And then I'm reading it off my. OK. OK. And then come and see me. Minneapolis, June 5th through 8th. And then Edmonton, July 3rd through 6th.

Fuck yeah. April 10th through 12th, your girl Christina Hutchinson is going to be in Baltimore, Maryland headlining the Port Comedy Club. And then Naples, Florida, I'm doing a one-nighter headlining Off the Hook Comedy Club. Naples, Florida, April 24th. Won't you come? And then this is – I'm going to ask you for a donation. You can be international. And it's a $5 – my friend who is experiencing just –

The absolute loveliest gentleman in the world who is abusive, who's a rapist. Allegedly, Chad. He allegedly raped her and abused her and pushed her when she was pregnant. She escaped it, but she is fighting him in court as many abusive people do to their romantic partners that they use as punching bags. He is trying to...

Rid her of all of the funds, all of her money because that's the only type of control he can get of her. So long story short, I still have that GoFundMe to support my friend. When she's going through – after she does these lawsuits and she figures it out and she gets the money back that she's owed, she's going to come on the show and we're going to talk about this guy. And I can't fucking –

Wait, I can't wait. I'm going to give you the name of his fucking business. I can't wait. But for now, can you donate to her GoFundMe? If you click the link in my Instagram bio, that's Christina Hutch. There's a lot of links to all my comedy shows. If you scroll down, it says donate to support Christina's friend in escaping abuse. She is being hit with a new lawsuit. The guy's trying to have a conservatorship over her and the baby.

And when we eventually do hear her story, we will understand how batshit crazy that is. So if you have a couple dollars to spare and you've already donated to Corinne's campaign, please consider donating too, my friends. Go fund me. I need to, girl. And if you're international and you wanted something to donate to, there you go. There you go. And that's truly making a difference. There you go.

All right. I'm good. Yeah. How are you? What's going on with you? We've been talking about me nonstop. Oh, good. I'm excited to leave America. Not for good. Just for a couple of days. No, no, no. Just for a week. Yeah. I'm going to the Cotswolds for a couple of days. Yes. It's a British countryside. I love London. I love England. Something about that place. There's so many other places I have never been to that I can't wait to go to at some point eventually. But there's something special about England that

That's like, I don't know if I've lived there before. I don't know if I will live there in the future. They got a lot of aliens. They're the home of the Arthur Finlay College. I'm trying to go take a workshop there. Trying to go to that Arthur Finlay College. But yeah, that's just really... And then I'm just dealing with...

my excitement over that and i've been painting i've been using watercolors to paint and it's been really nice are you a good painter yeah actually i am i was like i've never seen it i've never seen a christina hutchinson piece dude i've been i've been doing bouquet i may have books on how to do it so you sketch it with a pencil and then you paint i love watercolor it's so freeing and it's i like um like i'm taking drum lessons still and doing all like i i like learning new skills that involve my hands because it takes me out of my head and uh at a time where you know

It's not an exaggeration to say that fascism is taking over the United States of America and, you know, my – the two people that – well, they didn't – they're not genetically part of me. One of them is. But it's just the two people that raised me are just continuing to be a real stick in the mud. Yeah.

The same tactics and the same. And if you're, if you're listening and you have nothing worse than being controlling and a hack, I know honestly, truly. Um, but it's been so interesting to learn that like, you know, I know it feels if anybody for difficult people with difficult parents, uh, and it still stresses you out. Um,

just know that if they didn't have you as a kid, they had somebody else as a kid, they'd do it to that kid. It feels like the most personal thing, but it's so not personal. So it's been interesting to gain perspective because I'm working on my Wonder Woman show, and because I talk to my brothers, one of my closest people in my life who I love,

so much. I'm getting interesting perspectives of him about the people who raised us and I'm coming up with a great ending for my one woman show. But thinking about that, but thinking about painting, but thinking about Corinne Vermeer. Nice. Three great things. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I talk about it in the interview because all I'm thinking about, I don't like, I know you're like, Oh, what else is going on in your life? There's nothing else in my life. For sure. For me, I have literally no time. I, my hair was falling out of my head, not my actual hair, my extensions. And I was like, I actually, I went to the salon at eight o'clock in the morning on Saturday because that was the only time that I could fit it in. And that's not, not normal.

And our campaign manager was like, get ready to have no life for a long time. Oh, I already had no life. So I can only imagine like the fact that it's now going to get worse, what that's going to look like. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, no, I mean, we talk, I talked about it briefly in the interview that you're going to hear today, but it's just, you know, I was at a wedding on Saturday, a surprise wedding, but it was a surprise wedding mass as their daughter's birthday party, but it was actually both. I knew the wedding was happening now. So fun.

And, uh, you just see how many people come out and how many gifts are, you know, thrust upon the child. And that's wonderful. And it's great when family shows up. But again, it's, it was just a reminder, uh, that we need to start if we, especially if you're someone who believes that women are behind, right. That women need to progress in society, uh,

we need to start showing up for women in other ways outside of when they get married or when they have children. And that's what I was thinking about a lot, you know, how easy it is to get someone to come to your wedding. We fly, you know, last week I flew across the country for someone's wedding that I barely knew. We fly to other countries for people's weddings. Um, we babysit, uh, our friends, children's, you know, for free without, you know, uh,

no, no, no problem. Don't even, don't even mention it, you know, and those things are great. I'm not saying to stop doing those things. Um, but for the women in society who don't want to do those things or those things are not their priorities, we need to show up for those friends in our groups too. Um, and, and that's how I really think of this mayoral campaign, you know, uh,

and I and this was something before I ran for mayor that I had discussed at length with my mother whether it was like our book coming out or people coming to see my comedy shows I I just see you know so many friends and family going out of their way to support people in these more traditional pursuits and I don't see the same energy for these non-traditional things that I do that I would that I hope in the future become traditional things yeah and so it's just it's

Just a reminder. And, you know, you could be a feminist yourself and be slipping up in these ways. It doesn't make you a bad person. Obviously, you were socialized to prioritize things like having kids and getting married as these milestones that were all...

reaching towards because, you know, you know, maybe not everyone is going to run for mayor, but everyone has a dream. You know, uh, everyone has a dream. Everyone has a goal and everyone I think is looking for their purpose. And so on the road there, when those people need help, whether it be emotional support, financial support, whatever it is that you have, uh, that you can offer them, please show up for them.

And again, we talk about it more in this interview, but it's something that I have thought of long before running for office, but continue to think about, especially with a campaign where you – I've never needed to ask people for money before, but this is just part of it.

just part of it uh and so it's but it's not just you know people not showing up with money it's people not showing up to sign a petition when they say they're going to show up um it's people not you know volunteering when they say they're volunteering like all these things it's all of these things that's that's it and it's not i don't want to make it negative because there's been so many people who reality who have shown up it's just like a reminder because i want um

you know, pursuing things to have the same kind of support that we have when women are supporting family things and wedding things. And to, you know, leave that Instagram comment when someone's trying something new that doesn't involve getting married or having a kid. Just be, there's so many ways to show up for those people. And I, we're not trained to do so. So let's start thinking about that. Start doing it. Yeah.

Speaking of people that start doing stuff, this guest is, we had such a great conversation. She's the chief executive officer of the Abortion Positivity Project, and she's really leading the charge in the new ways that we should be thinking and talking, and how important that is, about abortion and how positive abortion is. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show, Sophie Neer. Sophie Neer.

Alright guys, we are here with CEO of Abortion Positivity Project, Sophie Neer. Very excited to have you on. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Now, there's so much to talk about. I was saying earlier before we started recording, the amount of women...

that have been arrested for miscarrying is wild. And Corinne and I were just doing a bonus episode of the podcast, and we were talking about how I was saying in straight relationships, one thing that really gets me down is that men are not curious about a woman's experience as much as I would at all, really.

And so one of the things that I tried to get through to the men in my life that I knew were voting for Trump was that abortion is women's health care. If I am pregnant and I want to keep that baby, but something happens, I might need an abortion to live, to survive. And the fact that a group of cells or a fetus that has not seen taking a breath yet has more rights than I do and has more has rights over my life is devastating and infuriating.

Yes, I think that is absolutely the case. I concur. I concur in every way. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's like so much of what we do at the Abortion Positivity Project is really about understanding the landscape that led to this, not only in the way that anti-abortion extremists have like crafted this, to use your brilliant word, dystopia, where people

people and women cannot access healthcare to save their lives or to make decisions for their own lives and their own selves and their own destinies that are in line with their values and their view for themselves. But also the way that people who self-proclaim to be quote unquote pro-choice, but continue to promote incredibly abortion negative, harmful and stigmatizing narratives around abortion are also, um,

really contributing to what we're seeing now, which is the worst national abortion landscape in 52 years. Let's talk about those pro-choice people that give those bad narratives. Can you give me an example of that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So the quote-unquote pro-choice community has really crafted all abortion messaging around distancing from abortion, using euphemisms like choice, the word choice itself to describe

self-identify was really intentionally selected to distance from abortion itself. Interesting. Cause the, cause the, cause the idea of like, like if I imagine myself, I don't know if you've done this, like imagine myself living in a state where I do not have the choice to get an abortion. Um,

The fact that I don't have a choice, even if I didn't want to get an abortion, would make me irate and move. Because choice is freedom. Would you agree? Abortion is freedom. Right, right. Absolutely. Totally. The ability to access abortion care...

both in a situation where you are in a medical emergency and also a situation where you are not in a medical emergency, but just do not see having, uh, carrying out this pregnancy as the decision that you want to make in your life is the fundamental tenant of freedom for women. Absolutely. So are you talking about like when, you know, when the left, we need feel, we need to parade people around who have these, uh, really, uh,

uh like dramatic stories uh about the like you know that i you know i was my dad had sex with me and i was gonna have an incest baby rather than just saying like this should exist because it should exist because women should have a choice and that's kind of the end of the story is that kind of what you're getting at it's certainly one of the things that we're getting at and actually um around this last presidential election i will say that we are a 501c3 we're a non-profit right

And therefore we are entirely nonpartisan, which is actually pretty easy because we find that people on every part of the political spectrum are incredibly hostile to abortion. So it's easy to be nonpartisan. Yeah.

Yeah. Wild man. Yeah. But we actually around this last presidential election, because, of course, elections and the discourse and news coverage of elections is one of the primary indicators of the conversation that is dominating the national abortion narrative. We ran a campaign called the All Abortions Are Valid campaign.

And it really was targeting exactly what you just said, because what we saw during the presidential campaign, which I'm sure if you watch back the debates or if you have traumatic memories of watching them the first time. Trump just looming over Hillary as she's talking. Yeah. And in the Kamala debates as well, and also in the one debate Joe Biden did, what we saw

Over and over and over again. And also not just in the presidential, right? In other races as well. But the presidential is the one that obviously got the most media coverage and the one that people were really talking about. But it continued to play out this same story in the same way. And it would be that a anti-abortion extremist candidate who self-proclaimed to be anti-abortion would stand

say something incredibly disparaging and false and lurid and despicable, particularly about the realities of abortion later in pregnancy. So they would say, I'm sure you've heard, I don't like to repeat their talking points, but they, I've heard men repeat their talking points, but I'm sure you've heard them repeated, right? So, um, things about the nomenclature,

ninth month abortions men that i know and love and respect have repeated the fucking talking point exactly so they would say that bullshit i can swear post-birth abortion aka murder right that was used in the last presidential debates right post-birth abortion oh i had a god fuck back when i was a stand-up comedian many months ago i had i had a joke about post-birth abortion like what the

That's murder. I would just act out like a nurse coming in and like kicking a baby. You're out of here. It's insane. I go, oh, you mean this murder? I go, yeah, we're all against that. We all decided we're against that. Well, right. That's murder. And that's exactly like exactly the way that they craft this. Yeah. They say something that obviously and objectively everybody is against. Yeah. And

And also. And it's factually inaccurate. Right. And also isn't happening. You go, that's literally one of the Ten Commandments. We all agree on that ages ago. No, thou shall not murder. Post-abortion murder. Yeah. So like they're painting this picture that is entirely false. And their ego really is on that jetpack though, Sophie. And I don't know how the fuck to knock them off.

They, well, so much of it too is like, it's a cruelty. You know, it's like, it's not just that they are saying this, like, because they are like, have genuine protection. Like they genuinely want to like,

protect babies or anyone for real because that because that I can work with yeah I think there are some people not the men um but I think there are some people especially like young people who maybe have been born into this conversation super religious or something that think it is and like that I can work with I can have a conversation with you but you're exactly right it's like the cruelty and the control of so many politicians specifically right and like

I think like, you know, obviously when we're talking about abortion stigma and therefore abortion positivity, what we're really talking about is controlling the narrative. And what we saw during this presidential election was that they, the anti-abortion extremist narrative, which as we said, was like this incredibly lurid, false, cruel, evil misrepresentation is honestly the nicest word I can say about it, about abortion later in pregnancy. But then, but then. Yeah.

The quote unquote pro-choice candidate would always respond in the exact same way, which would be that they would talk about how abortion later in pregnancy is incredibly rare. People go to Planned Parenthood birthplace.

birth control mostly it makes up only a tiny percentage of the abortions that happen in america and it is almost always which is true uh in the case of a medical emergency or a severe um pregnancy complication or what have you right like these overtly tragic cases in these wanted pregnancies is

always like immediately what they go to. And I think that really, really, really like misses the forest in the trees, which is like the government should not be forcing any person to be pregnant at any time for any reason against their will. Yes. Bodily autonomy does not expire at any point in pregnancy and the government being of, excuse me, and the government being involved in pregnancy.

people's personal lives and their personal health decisions and their personal journeys does not make anyone safer, period, full stop. Yes. And we really like lost the plot. Yeah, we did. And that's like when we're talking about like how we're not controlling the narrative and how we're letting anti-abortion extremists like walk all over us as pro-abortion and abortion supportive people, even though

Abortion is so overwhelmingly popular in the United States. Almost 90% of Americans support abortion in at least some cases. And yet, whenever, you know, quote unquote pro-choice people, particularly quote unquote pro-choice politicians, are talking about abortion, they always do it with this incredibly apologetic, shameful, whispered, like as if they are running from this problem.

low ground when they have the overwhelming high ground. And it's like, can you imagine like a less effective method to convince anyone of literally anything than being like, yeah, so this thing is bad and it's, I'm, I'm personally ashamed to support it, but it's really important that we support it, but it's bad. Like how in what universe is that going to be effective advocacy?

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How can we talk about it better? Oh my God, I love that question. That's my favorite question to get. So there are so many ways, but I think that like,

First and foremost, it's really about – I mean, of course, this is going to sound like a shameless plug. But what we say as the sort of overarching principle is by embracing abortion positivity. And abortion positivity is about centering the positive impacts of abortion. And we say understanding abortion as a social good. So how we talk about abortion better is, first of all, with the forefront acknowledgement that abortion is –

Healthcare. First of all, abortion saves people's lives and abortion allows people to determine their own destinies. And those are both like net incredible things, right? So abortion is actually like

an amazing force in our society for women and for everyone, for families, for everyone. So when we talk about abortion, I think it's like leading from that place of understanding because what we have seen and like, this is, you know, of course an oversimplification as anything that I can say in, you know, less than an hour is, but like what we have seen is that

The anti-abortion extremists say abortion is bad, abortion is bad, abortion is bad, right? And then the quote-unquote pro-choice people, they say, no, abortion is not bad. But they're not saying it's good. They're not saying abortion is good, yeah. Exactly. But abortion is good. Abortion is freedom. It is life-saving in many ways, not just, you know, the... So, I mean, Jesus Christ. Well, I love what you're saying. And to me, part of the problem with why...

it's not like a better, the part two of what you said is not a better sell, which is that it enables women to live the life that they want to is because society doesn't give a fuck if we live the life that we want to. Yes. Well, yes. And so, I mean, that's why, because I agree with that wholeheartedly. And also like, additionally, if we're talking about the welfare of children, any child who grew up in a bad argument knows that to be, you know, having parents who didn't want you or, or were, or just even,

weren't prepared for you or equipped for you is not going to make you have a good life. Correct. Of course. Of course. It's very, everyone knows that. And I think too, like when talking about it, maybe we can be doing a better job of reminding people when they give like reasons why women have abortions. So there's so many reasons to save their own life because they don't want a fucking kid right now. Cause they're broke. Cause they, whatever.

It doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I think it's over explained. I think it's over explained a lot, which leave it to us. I know. Right. Women just yapping away, but it doesn't fucking matter. Yeah. And I think it's over explained because people are coming from this place of automatic apology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also it's like, I think there's this cultural idea and like the societal idea that like abortion is default bad, but then there is like,

People will talk about like, you know, well, this is why my abortion is an exception to the fact that abortion is overall bad. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like if people are talking about their abortion in this sort of over explaining, well, like this is why I had to internalizing society's gaze. Well, of course. So shame is taught. Right. And I'm when I want to say like when we talk about abortion positivity, like we are always talking about the societal narrative and the society like this sort of zeitgeist conversation around abortion. Right.

we are never trying to police someone's personal feelings about their own abortion. Right, right. But shame is taught. Yeah, yeah. Right? And like we, and I think that it comes from this like sort of

societal idea that like abortion is bad or abortion is something that happens to other people or that it is shameful and it shouldn't be talked about so then when someone feels like well I had an abortion or I want to have an abortion and I feel like I need to like over explain the reasons is because they're being backed into this corner where they feel like

they need to explain why the choice that they are making is moral. When we could just come at it all from the default, which we know is that abortion is not only moral, but societal. It is a societal benefit.

Yeah. Why would you want a woman to have a baby when she doesn't want to or that or in a situation where it could kill her other than you want that woman to not have autonomy over herself and her life? That's the only way. It's only controlling women. I think the free women being free in themselves is so threatening the society, which hopefully we're fucking over that hump. I mean, we're not.

but I hope we're over that fucking hump soon. Yeah. One of my favorite bits of standup comedy ever is by Sarah Silverman. And I think it's her latest special. Uh, she talks about, she worked with Liz Winstead, who we had had a friend of the pod, um, and you know, and a lot of, uh, comedians, female comedians that we know work for, uh, abortion access projects, uh, and nonprofits. And a lot of things they do is they, they, um, they will escort people from their car to the door of an abortion clinic, uh,

And that's needed because the woman, regardless of why she's going there, is going to get harassed by people with giant signs of fetuses blown up. And Sarah Silverman's bit was, if you are going to have a sign of a fetus...

To show a woman who's going, walking to a clinic to get an abortion, make it the actual size of a fetus, which is little less than a dime depending on where you're at. Yeah. So that that's the thing that you're rubbing in her face. This group of cells you're saying has more value than this woman standing in front of you. Yeah. And that's also like, there is so much misinformation around abortion and abortion.

I mean the selling baby parts narrative I have ever heard. I've re heard that talking point way too often. Yeah. What do you say to people that, that, yeah, like the baby, but like Planned Parenthood, the amount of people I know that I'm close with men that were like, that kind of bought into this whole thing that Planned Parenthood was selling baby parts. Like, what do you say? Really think that? Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I say the misinformation around abortion is,

Is so rampant. Yeah. That you believe that when it is so, so, so far from the truth. Right. So like, first of all, like if someone asks me a question about abortion in good faith, I answer it in good faith. But it's not always in good faith. And if they answer me, they ask me a question about abortion in bad faith. I do not answer it as if it was in good faith. And that's really important. How do you answer those ones? The bad faith ones? Because I just want to punch him in the face.

I don't do that. Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good. That's why you work for this nonprofit and I don't.

I couldn't volunteer for the escort. I wanted to volunteer for the escorting thing, but I was talking to one of our, Joyelle, about it. Yeah, Christina would make it worse by having a physical altercation. If there was a man standing outside a woman's health clinic telling me what I should or should not do, I don't care if I'm there to get condoms, if I'm there to get a pap smear, I will fucking annihilate you physically. Like, I have no patience or wavelength for that person. Like, you shouldn't...

You have been so steered wrong that I have no faith in you. I have no hope for you. And I think you're a waste of oxygen, which is not the right approach. So in that situation, like...

I wouldn't respond verbally to that situation because the only thing in that situation that matters is protecting the person that is going into that clinic in a way that best serves them. And making them feel safe. Yeah. But like, that's a really different situation than like if I was having a conversation with someone and they start asking these sort of bad faith questions. Right. And so first of all, when I'm responding to a bad faith question, I always, I,

keep in mind my own sort of narrative that I am trying to lead with, right? So like if someone asks me a question about abortion in the ninth month, I will never...

I never will address that as if it's real. Right. Because it's not real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So like, I do not, I do not leave, I do not follow their rabbit hole, you know? Good, good, good. Yeah. That's really the most important thing. If someone says to me something like abortion is murder, I say abortion saves lives. And then I talk about that. Yes. Right. I don't say abortion is not murder because then we're talking about abortion and murder.

Right. Well, abortion can be murder when you take it away from a woman. Oh, yeah. When you deny her access to abortion. Abortion bans are certainly murder. Yeah. And it's like you care so much about kids. Motherfucker, no, you don't. No. You know how many fucking kids are hungry in America that can't afford school lunch? There's so many children that need our help, that need to be adopted, that need to be loved and cared for and respected. Yeah.

Go help those kids. Yeah. It's so not about that. Like they're the, the, the person that is, um, even beyond the bad faith questions to you, like the person that is willing to protest or that is willing to like even post a bullshit fact about abortion. Like they're like, do you think that they can be saved for lack of a better word in terms of like,

understood because what i understand when someone approaches me and we don't agree but they approach me like oh why do you think abortion isn't murder but they're they have a genuine curiosity which i i assume is like a good faith question right that's absolutely i fucks with that hard like i love i live for those moments because you're genuinely curious but like the bad faith people there's a lot of them out there yeah well they're certainly the loudest totally i mean i

They are a extreme, extreme, extreme minority of American people, but they are very loud. And that's very intentional. And I would like I would happily point that out, too. Yeah, I have said many times to people like this is an incredibly niche, like extremist opinion that you are pretending is like a mainstream feeling when it absolutely isn't. Like what you are saying is completely fringe nonsense. Oh, that makes me feel better.

Because knowing that the majority of people don't think that. Oh, vast majority. They are the loudest and it's easy to get down on like, why the fuck would somebody be like that? Yeah. Why would somebody be like that? They're the vast majority. And it's also like from a theory perspective, like a theory of change perspective for our organization. Yeah.

I say we are not out here trying to convert one single anti-abortion person into someone who supports abortion. We do not need to do that. We have the numbers by far. What we are trying to do is,

is talk to people who self-identify as quote-unquote pro-choice, but have grown up their entire lives in this conversational climate where the only thing that they are exposed to is stigmatized, abortion negative, and frankly, losing arguments around abortion. And we teach them how to realign their abortion advocacy and the way they talk about abortion and think about abortion with

with their own stated goal of having abortion be safe, legal, affordable, accessible, and stigma-free. That's beautiful. So it's to strengthen what you have control over rather than fight against people who disagree with you. Yeah, exactly. Love. And it's about like...

It's very strategic, I think. Yeah. Well, the left needs to be more. I know. Sometimes. I know you're a non-profit, so you're neither the right nor the left. So true. And also, too, we criticize a lot of the liberal-leaning stuff because it's like, yeah, let's... But I love this. I love the internal pivot of what we can control. I think that's a really wise way to implement positive change. Thank you. I appreciate that. But yeah, so it's like...

The whole point is to be strategic in the way that we are aligning our advocacy with the future that we want to see. And for some reason, the anti-abortion extremists are so, so good at like pulling us off of our own talking points, putting us on the defense. Because a lot of our emotions get in the way. I mean, that's my problem. I don't know. I mean, maybe. Or it's that like...

we're so afraid to like stay on our own ground oh yeah that's not me i want to kill you like if you're if you're protesting me going to get an abortion but i think like a lot of trolls and stuff like that so like even when we were just we were at the women's march a couple weeks ago and there was uh like i got like a couple people who were obviously influencers trolling just to get lit like libs to react right and so you were they thank you for warning me about that eric

even pointed it out and they and so many people were falling for it. So I'm just like we just we have to stop paying attention and stop reacting not like stop paying attention in that we let you know Donald Trump policies take over the country take over the country and rename it you know the United States of Trump. I'm talking about not paying attention in that way but like stop being reactive and like yeah and really work on our own gameplay and strategy and I love that you use the word strategy because I think a lot of times people

people can look at strategy and think of it as like a bad thing. Like it feels manipulative, but no smart. We, if you want something done, you do need a strategy. It's okay. It's positive. Absolutely. And also like abortion positive. Yeah. It's a portion positive. Yeah. Okay. One. Yes. And two, like there is this, I think that people are really uncomfortable with the idea that they have already been manipulated. Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. I fucking hate when I found out I've been manipulated. Right. That sucks. I feel like when we are talking about strategy, it is not about manipulating people. It is about realigning the narratives that have been manipulated into us out of, out.

Right. Like, and we also like, like people's biases. We were just talking on a, on the bonus episode about, you know, hetero pessimism. It was called and just like, I feel it, you know, but I, but I think like the, the good and bad news is like, if you're worried that you need to make good with the fact that you've already been manipulated, if you're a straight woman, I mean, it's already happened. Yeah. So it's fine. It's okay, girl. You know, put it on my tab. Yeah.

That's to quote the 40 year old virgin. Funniest line. Funniest line. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So you've seen, and it was also strategizing too, is taking the emotion out of it, which is how you get things done because our brains are very powerful and we can still think with our heart when we're strategizing and taking our emotions out of it. We're just not being what you're both saying is reactive. Yeah, completely. And like,

We as people are shaped by our society in literally every way, right? So like the idea that we just have like, that like the thoughts and the values that we have are just like,

popped into our heads out of nowhere is crazy. Right. Of course, they've been brewing everything that we all think. Now I'm getting like very esoteric. But like everything that we all think about everything is

is one of the options that was presented to us by society 100 right so we all have creativity well that's true we're all very boring well that's why when somebody comes along like chapel roan who like dresses weird and does her own fucking thing we're like whoa whoa whoa you like they're so intoxicating because they go to the beat of their own drum well yeah they either go the chapel roan route or they go another route where we're just like that's or we're like that's scary that's too much we're not ready for that

I feel like there's like two ways you can react to something. Well, social change is a lot of that. Yeah. So it's like to say that it's like manipulative to say that we should like have strategy is to suggest that like society isn't manipulating us every day. Right. You're a good person for this job because it seems like you're pretty even keeled. Like what's the most pissed off you've gotten through while working for this 501c3? Like,

You seem pretty even keeled about it. Like, do you, are you faced with, and I imagine too being faced with people like I, I, I'm one of the reasons why I'm so curious about this to interview you is I would identify myself as pro-choice and not really understanding. I mean, I've gotten, I got got by so many things, my parents, society, men, like all of it. So like, I'm very accepting when I've been told I've been manipulated by something new. Sure. They'll get you. Yeah.

I'm like, yeah, that's probably correct. All right, let's go. Every moment's a teachable moment when you're me. So I imagine you interface a lot and interact with more pro-choice people, not anti-abortion people, right? Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. And like, so I love that you think I'm even keeled. I'm telling my therapist that. Oh, fuck yeah. I am going to write it down and put it on my wall with like a little ribbon that I'm going to buy for myself. Okay.

The most pissed off that I get, for sure, is when I talk to people particularly like

white women who are very much a product of the bill clinton safe legal and rare era oh wait so what's that okay so bill clinton do you know who he is i do i've heard of him yeah safe legal and rare i don't know i don't know about that okay so bill clinton he really like he

He did a lot of damage with this phrase. But his whole sort of policy around abortion and the way that he would talk about abortion was all about that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. Oh, he used rare? Safe, legal, and rare. That's fun. Well, because he was trying to push slowly. It kind of reminds me a lot of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, which is also him. So he's like, he wanted to push these progressive viewpoints in, but just like,

But like, okay. So he probably thought I'm going to do baby steps where really that's creating a lot of damage. Right. So he thinks he's sanitizing, but what he's doing is stigmatizing. And I'm going to tell you the craziest part. Planned Parenthood adopted safely Glen rare as they're like literally official narrative for a decade. Hmm.

part of me, like, I get it. I get it. I mean, I wonder if part of them was like, we just don't want you showing up to the clinic with a gun. Yeah. So it's rare. Ha ha. And then, and then, you know, on the DL, we're like, bitch, you get an abortion for whatever reason you want to. Yeah. I truly don't care. But like, the problem is... A lot of damage that does. Yeah, like...

The DL part didn't come through. Right. We DL'd too close to the sun. Yeah, yeah. Totally. And like... Very damaging. Right. So like when I talk to these women all the time and they say things like, they say things like safely grown rare. They say things like... Oh, really? I would... Oh, yeah. They still use the rare part. Because when you said rare... They say it like...

Like I can – and also – so we run trainings and one of the parts of our training that is that we like give people an opportunity to give examples of like abortion negative statements that they have heard. 100% of the time someone will say, oh, safe, legal, and rare. Yeah.

Because like it is so culturally pervasive among like an older generation of white women. But do they say it as a positive or a negative usually when they're presenting it to you? Well, so in the context of a training, they say it as an abortion negative, which is different than being a positive or a negative. But they say it as an example of like a statement that is quote unquote pro-choice, but abortion negative. Right. So an example of like a pro-choice abortion negative statement is,

would be safe, legal and rare would be like, I would never have an abortion, but you can do whatever you want. Right. To that, I'd be like, can you imagine if I was like, you can wear whatever you want, but I would never wear that. Like, fuck off. Don't we understand as a culture that that's not a compliment. So why people say that about abortion, like comfortably and thinking that they are doing like good and not harm. Like, I, yeah, I never even, I, yeah, I was never familiar with the fact that like, like,

classifying abortion using adjectives such as rare for abortion is like, see, that's good. Like that feels so wrong. It's because who fucking cares? Well, to be an advocate, we also don't really need to know what the fuck's going on in your personal life. Right. We live in a culture where we have to make everything about us. It's like, you could just be an advocate and we don't need to know your, what your personal choice would be if you got pregnant. Totally. We just don't care. Yeah. And it's like, I think, you know, there needs to be more, uh, potentially pushback, uh,

whenever somebody brings up a reason why a woman gets an abortion. No, no, no, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Like just immediately re-steering the conversation. That's the thing. Every election doesn't matter. There's the parade of the most insane stories of all time. Right. Like they pull out the

most traumatic. But that woman, that young woman who had that story, I mean, these are... You know the one I'm talking about. I'm blanking on her name. The incest one, yeah. Yeah, who was raped by her father and got pregnant, or stepfather rather, and she shared photos of how old she was when she was raped by her stepfather. And I gotta say, at the time,

In this podcast, we've been getting emails from women who have been raped by their father or stepfather. Like that is – it's a reality that we've been kind of gotten a window into. And it is – and the second we started getting a window into that reality a decade ago, I'm like I want everybody to get a window into this reality. Incest happens. Rape happens to young women so fucking frequently. A hundred percent. It's happened so frequently that I want you – and I was so glad that she did that.

But are there downsides to that? I just was watching it and I was like, yeah, it's an important story for us to know as a culture, but like not doesn't need... Like, I...

I know exactly what you're talking about. We always parade the most extreme case because we feel again, it's also, it does have the energy of we're losing this fight when we're not losing this fight. Yeah. And it's like this over explanation. I guess maybe it's like this, the most dramatic stories to get that last 10% on our side. I don't really know what the play is here, but it's like,

If we want to normalize it, yeah, every story can't be that because that's not most people's story. Right. And it's also like it is 1000% evil to force a person in a tragic case of incest or a very young person who is pregnant. From rape. Right. It is absolutely hideous to ban abortion for that person. And that is an evil act. And it is an evil act to ban

prevent someone from getting an abortion who wants an abortion. She just doesn't want to get right. Who isn't right in that sort of situation. Right. Because I guess those are evil. Their strategy is like, well, with that young woman who was, you know, working with Kamala on her campaign, surely no one's going to say she shouldn't get an abortion. No. So I guess that was their strategy. Like no human being who is, has a heart and a soul could ever deny that that woman didn't deserve to get an abortion. Right.

But then it becomes this like pecking order of who deserves an abortion most. And that's where the – with the rape and incest exceptions come in with the laws and the bills. It shouldn't fucking matter. The rape and incest exception, there should be no exception to an abortion. There should be no ban.

Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the Surviving Sister Wives podcast. Sister Wives returns at last, and while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss,

And Cody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship? And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions we've been begging to know. Sister Wives returns Sunday, April 20th at 10 on TLC. I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed.

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Right. Well, there should be no ban and therefore no need for exceptions. Exactly. But I mean, exceptions, I mean, I could talk about exceptions all day. I won't. But first of all, exceptions are not feasibly executed, right? Because for many, many reasons, including the medical providers in the state are,

far too validly afraid to either lose their medical license or go to be in jail for murder which is already happening right a doula was in prison for murder of a fetus yeah and there's so many women that are fucking going to jail yeah while they're still miscarrying yeah also like disgusting doctors are fleeing these states yeah as yeah on mass right so and like and

The people, the doctors who are in medical school or in internship or residency or other like nurse practitioners, midwives, physician's assistants, like other kinds of what they call like advanced practice medical care providers.

that are in training in those states, they can't even legally learn how to provide abortion care. So if you are in a hospital and you are in or in any whatever, any sort of medical facility, and you are in a case that could fall under that state's abortion ban exception, you still cannot access that care. And that is not even to mention the like exactly what you're saying, which is like,

that like you can get an abortion if you are raped. Like why do our bodies need to be violated in order to then like earn autonomy over that? Right. Well, you know, it's a sad fact. We don't humanize women. Yeah. Did you know that women are human? I just learned. I heard. I don't know. I don't know. I saw like an Instagram infographic of it and I was like, maybe. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I was telling Corinne about this documentary I watched on women who were raped and went to the police and then were – the whole documentary is about women who then came back to the police after they were interrogated saying, I wasn't raped, and they were jailed for lying. But the reality is they were raped, and they were forced to give a false confession or saying that their confession was false rather. And the logical mind goes –

Huh? If you're raped, you're raped. How can a guy in a room with a bright light...

make you say that you weren't right. And the documentary very, very clearly explains exactly how that can happen. And at the end of the documentary, the resolution, which was a lovely resolution, those women that went through all of that bullshit now teach cops workshops to say, this is what I went through. This is why, this is how I was coerced. This is how I felt every step of the way. But at the end, you're like, God, we really need to humanize women to make women treated, like to treat women with,

With dignity. Totally. Totally. Right. And it's like, I also think that like so much of the anti-abortion sentiment in America is about punishing women for having sex.

Yeah. So dumb. I mean, I think that will... That's why the podcast took off. Yeah. Women fuck and they like it? Yes, dipshit. Yeah, absolutely. We have sex and it's fun and it feels good. Well, yeah, because the only acceptable way to sexualize women is when men have control of the sexualization narrative. Girl. And can monetize it usually. Right. Monetize it or use it for their own quest for power or whatever's going on there. But then when we're sexual, like...

you know, for ourselves or in the way that we want to be, well, then that's gotten out of control. Totally. And I think that like, that is a lot of like what we have seen in this like kind of religious extremist version of anti-abortion extremism. Yeah. Um, which has been obviously like very dominant, um, which is this like sort of

essentially like Christian or Catholic, like a shame narrative. Yeah. But what we're seeing now is a really distressing shift, which is like, and I think that like JD Vance is like kind of,

very much a forefather of this ideology as well as like the TikTok like men's rights incel monsters. But also like I think it's very sort of pervasive and like speaks to this significant like shift towards like right-leaning fascism that we are seeing in the country and across the world, which is that like we as like youngish women are

are like the first women literally in history to have like freedom and options beyond like settling for marriage and having babies. Right. We're out of control. Right. And like, I think that like young men, young women were sort of taught that we could be

Anything we want to be, right? Like we could have options and choices and freedoms that previous generations had never experienced. But I do not think that like young boys that are now men were taught how that would make their lives look different from their fathers. Yes. Right? Like our lives look so different from our mother's.

So different. Right? But like these men- Oh, that's a great point. Have only been modeled like essentially a masculinity that is exactly like their father. And in the vast majority of cases- Very good point, yeah. That means that they got married much younger than is currently the average. Yeah. They had babies and they took on the vast, vast, vast majority of domestic labor and childcare. Right? Mm-hmm.

So like I think what women are seeing – like women now are really rebelling against – I don't like the word. I'm not going to – I'm slicing and dicing the word rebelling. I didn't like that. But like women are like self-actualizing. That's way better. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Women are self-actualizing and like living the lives and meeting the potential that we want to meet and having like living the lives that we want to live. Yeah, and are loving it. And are loving it.

loving it and men are like whoa whoa whoa whoa I'm not that happy right and I'm like it's because you're not fucking me yeah that's not it Chad and they're like but like now like these like women don't want to date me because like I'm a flop and like yeah if I can trap them by removing their rights and freedoms then my life will be so much easier because I will have like essentially like

This like this is a very loaded word. Therapist baby vessel. Prisoner. Yeah. Like who exactly who will like do all the domestic labor, like like take care of my emotional needs, like be my therapist and my chef and my mommy. And I think that we are seeing like this sort of backlash to women's

and self-actualization that comes in the form of these like younger men. Yeah. Really like. Yeah, because they're mad they don't get a staff member. Exactly. So like. If I was promised a staff member and I didn't get a staff member, I'd probably be pissed too. Exactly. And I was never promised one though. Right. I was promised to be a staff member and I said, that doesn't sound good. Yeah. Yeah.

I noticed it right away when I was locked up. This doesn't seem like a good deal. I don't know why everyone's signing up for this. I feel like half the people that write into you guys are some version of like, I married this guy because I was so in love with him and now I'm his mother. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. And just also like...

Heterosexuality under duress, for lack of a better phrase, because we just talked about this article that Corinne found about how culture, we just assume we're everybody straight. Luckily, that's changing, which is great, because talk about freedom and options. Now we're starting to go, oh, maybe I don't want to fit into this gender norm, because fuck that. We're finding as more generations are born, how else can we feel freer? Yeah.

which is beautiful. I love that. Love that. We have time, right? Because I want to ask one more question. So just starting at 501c3, I think there's a lot of people, especially in our listenership, who really feel exhausted right now and feel powerless. And I'm against that as a concept completely. There's always something you can do. But if you want to do something like

large, large scale, like, like starting a nonprofit. Can you talk us through the process of doing that a little bit, you know, from concept to actually making it legal and viable? Yeah, absolutely. So, um,

There, it's not an easy process. I knew it wasn't. That's why I was like, I'm actually personally interested too. So, um, yeah. So I will say like my personal background is that I grew up, uh, working in New York politics, specifically, uh, working for women candidates. Um,

And I then ran a PAC that was specifically focused on women candidates. So I had experience like leading an organization before, but I hadn't founded it. I also, I will say, I do have two co-founders, Sarah Rowan and Kaylee Scott, the most amazing women on the planet. And if you can, if you would like to start a nonprofit and you would like to do that, not alone, I think that's

better. Right. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. For sure. So I, I will say like the one thing that really like changed the game for us and our ability to actually physically form our nonprofit was that we had a

pro bono lawyers. Nice. That's lovely. Which was really the difference between like being able to file IRS paperwork and it being prohibitively expensive to start an organization. How did you get access to people you knew or people who were invested in the cause? So,

My best friend works for a law firm and he sent me up with their pro bono. Pro bono, does that mean free? Yeah. Okay, I just wanted to clarify that. And that was like from a logistics perspective, I'll talk about like the theory and whatever too, but like from a logistics perspective, like your legal documents are like,

First, they're huge. They're the foundation of your thing. Yeah. And like, it's the one thing that like you cannot fuck up. Yeah. Right. Like, of course, like if you start like if you fuck that up and you're like taking donations illegally, like you can go to jail, you know, like you cannot fuck that up. So. So how much are we talking if you had had to pay for that? Do you think? Do you know? Like thousands of dollars for sure. Like under like 10K or more than that?

It depends. I mean, I'm like, I think 10 K is like around the number where you're like, okay, well you can scrape that together. If we get more, if we're getting more than that, then it starts feeling like unachievable. Yeah. It really depends because it's also like, you know, when you work in abortion, as I am very proud to do, like there's insurance things. There's like a lot of folks that like didn't really feel safe working with us, not because they don't support us, but because they have like,

you know, like security concerns. They didn't want to be flagged in that way. Right. Sure. Flag so bad. Yeah. Flag me bitch. Yeah. So, well, you say that until they arrest you. Oh, you say that. And so you can't go live on Instagram for 253 days. Like me. Did you get shadow banned or did you get real banned? No, I'm banned from going live for like the rest of my life because I just, they just think I'm a bad girl. Irresponsible whore. Oh, yeah.

Being a woman in public, it's a big risk. I bet you could find many, many people that will think that we're all, all three of us are irresponsible whores. Right. Um, just, just for caring about abortion as we do. Um, yeah. So that's definitely like the logistical piece of it. Sure. So that's,

then you need donors. I mean, you're running for office, right? You know how it's like donors, donors, donors, right? I know. Thanks. I'm glad that you said it this week so I didn't have to say it this week. That's all we need is donors. And there's so many legalities. There's so many. I'm like, if everyone listening, just give me $10. Truly. So like, blessedly,

there are less legalities around nonprofit than there are. I mean, there's more legalities from our perspective in terms of like what we are and are not allowed to do around political speech. But like from a donor, like there are fewer. But you know, my background, I used to be a political fundraiser. So I have lived. So you get it. I have lived your life, my dear. Yeah.

um and it's brutal and also like it's so brave of you to run by the way um it's like really hard it's so so hard yeah and it's and then and then also everyone has your address yeah that sucks yeah it's a little dangerous and everyone knows where you live yeah well yeah like corinne said i don't know when you said this but like i'm not running for mayor because i want my life to be fun

No. Because it's not fun. It's not easy. It's not good feelings. It's getting heartbroken every day. It's so much sacrifice. And also, like, I have found when people, especially women, run for office, like, so many of the people that you think, hope, and expect to come through for you will...

blow you off and flop. Oh yeah. I mean, my, my friends list is much shorter, so that's good. That'll save me money in the long run for all the gifts. I don't have to buy anymore anymore. That is like a universal experience that I think is never talked about. Like, yeah, it's very heartbreaking. Yeah. I thought you were a real one. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bummer. To me, to me, just to go on like to a women's issue, I was actually going to talk about this in the intro anyway, but since you brought it up,

I think it's also societally, we don't know how to react to something because it's a little bit like what you're running for mayor or whatever public office it is. Like we are happy to give money when someone is doing getting married or having a kid. Think of how much money you've done for that. So,

What I'm trying to get out here is like me running for mayor, that's my wedding. That's me having a baby. This is the thing that I want to do in my life. So it's not – we can all say we don't have the money. No one's showing up to a wedding without a check and no one's not sending a little gift when their friend has a baby. So I'm trying to remind people if we want –

especially women, to progress in this world, we need to start treating other life achievements with the same level of excitement that we treat these traditional ones. And it's not to shit on the traditional ones, but I think we'll all get along better. And these super feminists or whatever won't feel angry about women who want to live a more traditional life of getting married and having kids.

It's fine. Do those things, but you have to support people in their other endeavors. Yeah, absolutely. And like come, come through for people. Yeah. Like, yeah, that I will say, like, I think with running, excuse me, with like running for office and with like starting my own nonprofit, like something that I have noticed in both times is like,

you will say, I am doing this thing and they will respond, that's so incredible. And then you will say, and I need your help in this way and they won't respond at all. So I think the best thing that people can do is really, really come through for those situations. But then just to finish your original question, my co-founders and I, we worked together on

When I worked on the pack that I was mentioning, and this was a pack that was very much dominated by and for the older white women population.

from the safe, legal and rare era. And just pack for anyone listening. It's a political action committee. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just like, I feel like people, I have, I have a political podcast and I feel like we use political jargon a lot and everyone's like sitting there. Like we pretend that we know what it means and some people don't. And I don't feel bad about that. You didn't know what that is. I mean, I like that function. Yes. So it's also like all of these things, they're just like legal distinction. Yeah. Whatever. It's basically, it's an organization, but pack is the legal distinction.

distinction. So I was running this organization and it was specifically about funding quote unquote pro-choice women. That was like literally the mission statement. And when the Dobbs decision happened, I, I and my coworkers at the time who are my co-founders now were like, obviously as an explicitly pro-choice quote unquote pro-choice organization, like we are going to move in a very abortion forward direction in meeting with the times.

And we got absolutely nothing but pushback. What? Yes. The fuck? And we got nothing but pushback. And that was really like the eye-opening experience where we were like, okay, like abortion stigma is corroding. Huge problem.

is corroding even like the own quote unquote pro-choice movement, like the place that you would expect like abortion to be the safest. Right. And abortion stigma is so corrosive and it's just such a cancer within like the

the progressive movement within the, you know, quote unquote pro-choice movement among literally everyone, Democrats, Republicans, women, men, people on the left, people on the right, people who claim to support abortion and people who acknowledge that they don't. Right. It is so universal that we were like, okay, we need to like really like ruin our lives and our careers and our mental and physical health in order to do something about this. Well, thank God you fucking did. Ah,

Thank you. That's so kind. Where can we find you? Where can we donate? What aspects of your 501c3 do you want to promote? Yeah, all of it. Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. So you can donate on our website, abortionpositivity.com.

There's a big donate button. And we would really, really, really appreciate your support. And also, please, please follow us on Instagram at Abortion Positivity. We post all sorts of very fun abortion positive content that you can share and interact with and laugh at all the time. And we have fabulous merch. So if you want an Abortion Saves Lives sweatshirt or a tote bag

Yes. Or any of our amazing merch that we do in partnerships with social goods. You can find our merch on our website too. Oh, and I brought you guys a gift. Oh, thanks. Wait, what's your favorite color? It depends on the day, but green. Green. I have green. What's your favorite color? I mean pink. Great. I have pink too. So we also, my co-founders and I, we're big Swifties. Oh, yeah.

I was looking at that and I assumed you were a Swifty by the bracelets. Yeah. So we're big Swifties. And when we were founding the organization, this was all at the same time as like the heiress tour and the Barbie movie. And what we were noticing was that like there was this huge movement towards celebrating girlhood joy. Yeah. But it was my favorite. It was at the very same time as there was this huge push towards banning women's rights.

And so we were like, this is a tremendous and despicable dissonance. And we decided that we were going to take it upon ourselves to realign Girlhood Joy and women's rights. So we started making abortion positive friendship bracelets and we give them to all of our friends.

I love that. Thank you. Yay. Thank you. Oh, it's hot pink, which is my absolute favorite. I didn't want to be like, so I was like, actually it's hot pink, but that felt like a little bit on the nose. I got pink for you. And I'm sure this is like amazing content for your audio platform. Oh yeah. No, it's okay. Well, we need to push people to the YouTube version anyway. So there you go. Perfect. Thank you so much. Great. Donate, follow us on Instagram. And do you have volunteer opportunities as well or not there yet? So we, we,

We have many opportunities to help us in creating partnerships. Okay. So if you have a relationship with an organization or if you have a significant network or a friend group that you think would be really interested in hosting a training, an abortion positivity training about how to –

Embrace abortion positivity and realign your abortion advocacy with your own stated goal of abortion being safe, legal, affordable, accessible, and stigma-free. Please do reach out. We have a contact form on our website, too, and we would love to work with you to put on a training with any organization or network that you're a part of.

That's great. Love that. Great service. Thank you. That's the point. We have to get the message out. All of our trainings, if you would like to donate as part of our training, that would be great. But also, all of our trainings are...

have a total option to be completely free. Nice. Um, and we really see that as like a huge, huge step. Yeah. Accessibility is huge. Yeah. Yeah. And like people are not going to embrace like this new language and this new way of advocating for abortion. Um,

which in parentheses is much more effective unless they're exposed to it. Right. So like, this is like having me on this podcast is such a tremendous like kindness. And I'm so appreciative because like, even just like getting this message out to the people that already listen to your podcast, like people who are already engaging in your content, like it's,

That is such an amazing, amazing step. So like, thank you so much. Thank you for getting out there and doing something. Thank you. Love that. That's that. That's the whole we just want everyone to do something. That's all. Just fucking do something. Yeah. Do something. I love that. Yeah. Do something, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the show. This was great. Super informative. We have this.

Yeah. I like the smiley face. This has been another episode of Guys We Fucked, the anti-slut shaming podcast. We will talk to you next Friday. Thank you. Thank you. Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary. Created and hosted by Corinne Fisher and Christina Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination by Eric Freddie. Theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake Kozen. When I turn the lights out, silence used to sing so loud.

Used to run away, I tried to escape. Down to the dark thoughts, couldn't find a way back out. Habits die so hard, I bury them in my backyard. Could get used, could get used to this. Head in the clouds for the moon eclipse. That'd be okay. I could get used, could get used to this. I don't got no worries lately. I see colors, I close my eyes. I see colors.

I used to dream black and white like the sun. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I see colors. I

I won't leave.

So don't pull me down, pull me down. Now that I see it, I believe. I see earth's eyes, I see colors. I used to dream black and white like the summer. Got the sun in my eyes, I see colors. I see colors. I see colors.

Bye.