ANIMALS ARE FREER THAN HUMANS? ft. Nathan Letts
01:38:02 Share

Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market, the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1,000 plus ingredients, so you can trust that you'll only find the best high-quality organic and sustainable brands, all free of the junk.

With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping, you get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start shopping at thrivemarket.com slash podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift.

Will full coverage make me look cakey? Is my undertone neutral or is it cool? We get it. Finding the right foundation is hard. But with Il Makiage, it's easy to find your perfect match online. Customize for your unique skin tone and coverage needs. Plus, with Try Before You Buy, you can try your full size at home for 14 days.

With over 600,000 five-star reviews, this best-selling foundation is going viral for a reason. Take the Power Match Quiz now at ilmakiage.com slash quiz. I-L-M-A-K-I-A-G-E dot com slash quiz. Welcome to Guys We Fuck, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. I'm Christina Hudson. I'm Corinne Fisher. The voice of slutty, your horny, and your shame.

Hey, you a slut? Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about fucking. Hello, citizens of the world. How are you doing today? Welcome to another episode of Guys, We Fuck. It's the Anti-Slut-Chameen Podcast. I'm Corinne Fisher. I'm Christina Hutchinson. Welcome. You want to email us at sorryaboutlastnightshow at gmail.com. And guys, remember that you can still sign up to get all of our bonus episodes plus the regular episodes early today.

And ad-free. And let me tell you something. Kurt and I are very unhinged on these bonus episodes. It's very fun. For still only $29.99 a year. And if you have Spotify, just click the banner on our show page to sign up. Or if you want to use another platform to listen, you can do that too. Just go here, luminary.link slash GWF promo. Again, that's luminary.link.

slash GWF promo or again go to the top of the guys we fucked show page on Spotify and tap that exclusive benefits banner that's easier than half of y'all skincare routines I think today's subject line working in male dominated fields and sexual jokes I'm sure this will be like an inspiring story about good things hey I'm excited to write y'all today and get your advice on setting boundaries and honestly rant a bit about how frustrating it is to work in a man's world

Good for you, girl.

It's so funny. I was just talking about this the other day.

I mean, you exist in the world, so that's...

inviting unwanted attention. All this is to say that I promise my shoulders are covered at all times, a.k.a. my justification to the fucking men of the world that say we're asking for it. Anyways, I'm pretty new to the company and came because my boss is fantastic. He is a raging Trump Republican, LOL, but is extremely respectful of me, is a great mentor, and is my biggest advocate and recognizes my talent. That's great.

There is this one senior coworker that really rubbed me the wrong way during the last work trip. This guy made a few sexual jokes and specifically some about our female clients, then made a, quote, accidental sexual joke about me and made another sexual joke about me and my boss who quit frankly – who quite frankly is old as fuck.

I laughed along, but now I'm home and I'm feeling fucking violated. I'm so annoyed that I didn't set the right boundary and feel like I disrespected myself. I'm just all around frustrated. I joke with the guys, but never about anything sexual. I never comment on sexual jokes I hear anyone make, but will laugh along occasionally. I okayed this behavior by laughing, but it's still unacceptable. And

especially for a 40-year-old man that is in a senior position to do this. I had thought this guy made me uncomfortable because he's a bit rough and tough, and we haven't created a good rapport yet. But now I'm realizing he's just fucking disrespectful of women. Like sometimes if we are in a group and I say something to him, he does not respond or acknowledge me. I'll then have to repeat myself and call him by name to get a response. Oh, Jesus.

Isn't that cute? I want to set much better fucking boundaries next time I'm in this kind of situation. I laugh along when they aren't about me, but now that I was made the butt of the joke, I'm frustrated. I probably shouldn't be entertaining this behavior at all, and the fact that I am is me trying too hard to fit in. Any advice

to casually set boundaries to your more senior coworkers or anyone at work, especially while I'm in a group of guys laughing along. Attached is a photo of me. I'm on the left. These are clearly not my work clothes. Much love, loyal fucker. Hashtag Corinne for Mayor 2025. Side note, the guys were talking about Cuomo and his criminal behavior, and I said, quote, I know a comedian that's running for mayor, and they said, quote,

I hope he wins. And I said, I hope so too. Sending you their well wishes, regardless of their assumption that a comedian had to be a man. Jesus, they are far behind. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like trying this new tactic where you hold – like I feel like men that are the type of guys that you're describing in this email that are making these like crude jokes and not responding or acknowledge that you said something to them until you say their name. I would just – it's all about holding a mirror up to their own behavior to make them personally responsible for your behavior and not you. When you're left feeling like confused and like, wait, hold on. What? Hold on. What just happened here?

you don't have time to hold a mirror up to them. And so I just like simple lines like, what did you mean by that? What did you mean by that? Would you say that to a male coworker? Would you joke about that to a male coworker? No? Okay, cool. And then just walk away. I'm a fan of poignant short lines that make them feel stupid. You can also be like, I don't get it. Can you explain that to me in detail? Yeah.

That's a good one too. I don't understand what you meant by that. Can you explain that to me in detail? Sorry, my titties are so heavy. I didn't concentrate on what you were saying. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, a lot of times, like, especially when you're going against, you know, a group of people who are hiding misogyny as humor, which is a huge problem, even in larger scale government, you know, they're just going to kind of like hit back at with you like with like, oh, you can't take a joke or like, you don't have a good sense of humor. But I think like, yeah, being quite like,

So quietly holding your boundaries, I think, is the way to do it. And even, I mean, I don't like this tactic, but being like, what would you think if a bunch of guys were making jokes like that around your daughter? You know, I don't like having to do that, but sometimes you really have to reframe it so that people think of it within their own sphere. Otherwise, they won't care. We're in a really selfish time right now. And it's not just men. Women are selfish, too. Yeah.

Um, it's hard to get through to people, but I think, yeah, don't just keep laughing along with it because you're right by laughing along with it. That is a silent. Okay. Yeah. It's a laughing. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of just, I know. And then like, if you ever tried to fight back on it in the future, people would be like, well, you were sitting there and laughing with us, which is confusing. Yeah. In their defense. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not your fault. It's their fault. Sometimes when somebody says something that's shocking to you and it's the first time you're encountering them saying something of this nature, you go – you just – you freeze. It doesn't have to be a huge freeze. It could just be like a quick like, huh? And then your faculties are not all available to you in those moments sometimes and that's why we'll go home and go, fuck, I should have said this and I should have said that.

which is why I like having a couple lines in my arsenal. It's like being a stand-up comic and you prepare a couple crowd work lines for generic situations that you know you're going to encounter. Have a couple crowd work lines for these guys. What did you mean by that? Can you explain?

Yeah. There you go. And on the, on a positive note, you are getting, you know, obviously these men have always spoken this way because there is very rarely a woman around and now there's a woman around. Right. So the positive note is like, you're getting the same spyware that we get as female comedians that you're getting to see how men really talk when women aren't present and

And I think there is some value in that to help understand why things are the way they are. You guys know, I always report it back to you and then you get mad at me. Like I, you know, said something wrong, like I'm lying to you. I'm like, no, I'm just actually reporting the truth, but take it as you want it. Guys, you can find us other places. Did you know I have a Patreon? Have I ever talked about it on here? I feel like I haven't. Every once a week,

I hold a Zoom that I call Group Share-a-pee, and it's for anybody who wants to join. I think the memberships start at $5 a month, which is pretty cheap. You get access to all of these Zooms where we just kind of go around, and I lead group therapy, but it's not called that because I'm not a licensed therapist.

But I have some experience in giving advice. And it's a really cool space. It's one of the few spaces on the internet that I leave it feeling better about the human condition than I did before. And I can't say that about most things in my life. So that's very exciting. So if you want to sign up, it's patreon.com slash Christina Hutchinson.

And if you want to learn more about the news with me, you can watch my show every Wednesday at 9 p.m. Eastern on YouTube. It's called Without a Country. You can also listen to it anywhere you listen to podcasts, but I do recommend watching it on YouTube. If you watch it live, you can call in C-SPAN style, which is very exciting. And we talk about nationality.

national, sometimes international news. And then of course I do give different coverage than I give here, kind of more in-depth political coverage of the mayoral race that I am competing in every week. So it's a really fun show. I also have a Patreon. If you want to get an additional bonus video news story every week, you can sign up at patreon.com slash without a country. It's a really, it's like a, it's a fun and I feel tolerable way to,

to, uh, help you better engage with people who feel differently, um, about political and social issues in your life. Um, a reminder to critically think every week, uh, it will improve your media literacy, which I think is, um, an important and overlooked challenge that we're dealing with right now. Um, in a time when we take so much political information in via social media, um,

And it's just kind of a way to get all the news you need to know for the week in one portion instead of having to go, I go all over for you so you don't have to. And that's that. Cool. How you doing? Very tired. Yeah. I'm fine.

Yeah, it's been an interesting week. So, I mean, we've been preparing for a long time for Andrew Cuomo to announce that he was running for mayor. And the announcement came over this weekend. Some people are acting like... It's funny because anyone who was... We knew when we entered the race that this was most likely going to happen at one point during the race. And some people are acting like...

oh man, he got you. You're never going to win now. And I'm like, no, no, no. We enter. Well, I mean, these people, I don't know, but people online and I'm like, and I'm just like, no, like we knew this was going to happen. This was actually the moment I was most excited for, for Andrew Cuomo to enter the race because, uh, you know, part of this, um, part of running for mayor is that,

We need better options so that we don't have these same recycled, creepy, crusty men governing us. This is a man who is not fit to be around women, never mind govern a city where more, there are more women in New York city than men. Yeah. So like, what are we talking about right now? Um,

you know, times are difficult and I think people really are looking for someone who has strength. Right. And I think we are confused about what strength is. Andrew Cuomo is a bully notoriously to his staff. Anyone who speaks out against him, he retaliates against that him, uh, those people he's, he's vindictive. He, uh,

But he's Italian. Yeah. I mean, so he's all these things. He's also a nepo baby. He comes from a he's a titan in politics because because he comes from a political family. I mean, the list goes on and on. He's a he's a liar. He's self-serving. He wrote a book when he was supposed to be governing and he used staff to help him.

put it together. Uh, he got $5 million for the book and then had to give it back to the city. Cause everyone's like, yeah, you can't like use New York city taxpayer staff to write or New York, not New York city, New York taxpayer staff to write a book. Yeah. You know, he spent 25 mil defending himself from 11 correct, uh, credible sexual assault allegations, not all sexual assault, sexual misconduct legally is what we should be saying. But yeah, yeah. We read through the report and we were making a video series and it was like, you,

when you read it, Letitia James put together a committee to do this report and boy, oh boy, not good. Not good. Yeah. So, I mean, I think people are frustrated and exhausted and like, I don't even care if this is a bad man as long as this is a man who can stand up next, stand up to Trump. And like Cuomo and Trump can go ahead, go ahead to head. But that's the thing is, it's like,

Andrew Cuomo is just mini Trump. And who do you think is going to win against OG Trump and mini Trump in a battle? Well, I would say OG Trump, the same type of person. And one is president. And one is a governor who had to step down, who's now running for mayor. Let's look at the odds here. Sexual misconduct. This is a man who's on a quest for power, who, you know,

Who cannot admit when he is wrong, has still not admitted to basically any of the things he's been accused of. And I think that we think we have to keep taking it. We have to keep taking these same type of people to govern us because this is all that we're offered. And well, at least this is a name that I know. So I feel more comfortable. You know, the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don't know. Is it? Yeah.

We have to try something new, but as a society, we have to be willing to try something new. So we keep trying the old thing. The old thing isn't working. The Democratic Party is in shambles. And let me tell you, the way to resuscitate it is not by bringing back, by resurrecting the ghost of Andrew Cuomo. It's not. Okay? I can't even believe he's still around, quite frankly. Yeah.

These are old people with old values and old views like, and old views. The most, nothing tells you that someone is more out of touch than releasing a 17 minute video declaring that you're running for mayor. This man on Instagram.

Put a 17 minute video right there that tells you he has no idea what's going on. You know, one releases a 17 minute video and a 30 minute episode of television is only a cup with commercials is only a couple minutes longer than Andrew Cuomo's announcement video. Yeah, his tone was very condescending.

I mean, maybe that's who he is. It's not his tone. It's literally who the man is. Yeah. Yeah. It's not good. It's not good. It's who he is. It's very much. So, you know, like how when Donald Trump was running for president, people had merch that said daddy's home and,

There's this new... How dare you make that word bad. There's this new era of daddy's home governing that we are quite in right now. And Andrew Cuomo is a part of it. Watch his announcement video. It is very much like daddy's home and daddy's going to handle this for you. You guys have been bad New Yorkers. And daddy's here and daddy's going to fix everything. That's alarming. Thanks, daddy. That's alarming.

Hey, this is Naomi Ackparigan, co-host of the podcast Couples Therapy. I wanted to talk to you about Boost Mobile, the newest 5G network in the country. Boost Mobile's new network delivers customers the speed and service they'd expect from the big three, plus groundbreaking benefits you'd only get from a true challenger in the industry, like letting people try the network risk-free for 30 days and offering a $25 per month unlimited plan that's guaranteed to never go up in price.

So visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online at BoostMobile.com. They say opposites attract.

That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you, whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft? Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm? Sleep Number does that too. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. Sleep Number Smart Beds start at $999.

Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

Now find island-inspired, limited-time flavors at Whole Foods Market for the Explore the Tropic sales event. Enjoy pre-marinated mains like mango coconut salmon and pineapple teriyaki chicken and pair them with seasoned, ready-to-heat beans from a dozen cousins. Need dinner in a snap? Grab zesty lime shrimp salad, mango turkey burgers, and more from Prepared Foods. And, of course, there's the mango yuzu chantilly cake.

Explore the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market in-store and online.

It's infantilizing, and no wonder he allegedly reaches up underneath women's shirts on his staff and grabs their titty. Yeah, to allegedly a lot of ladies that worked for him. Oh, God. One of them was a state trooper. We can update. I laughed so hard. What was the actual delivery of the joke? It was Andrew Cuomo announced that he's running for mayor of New York City. His campaign slogan is...

Honka honka. I laughed so hard. Get him, Che! Because that's exactly who this guy is. He's creepy and he's old and he's gross. He's old news. He's the lasting stock among half of New York City. The other half really likes him though. Yeah, I mean this is...

This is a joke. Yeah, I'm always so – because you're listening to this, so you know that we do so much advocacy for people who have been affected by sexual assault. And it's been interesting. We're in the petitioning process of the campaign and just meeting with volunteers to collect signatures and talking to New Yorkers.

It's so – like the couple that are coming up that are like Cuomo all the way. I'm like, really? And they're all women so far. I'm like – and I try to have a conversation with one. I'm like, but he has 11 credible sexual assault allegations on him. I don't believe a single one. Like you didn't – I know you didn't read a single one. So what are we doing here? Like when somebody denies reality, it's – and there's a lot of that right now going on.

Yeah, it's tough. There's a lot of people who are voting for Andrew Cuomo because they want they hope to one day have sex with Andrew Cuomo. And that right there. Aim higher, girl. That right there should tell you that we're in a

unprecedented times. I always make fun of saying unprecedented times on Without a Country because I'm like, well, all times will eventually be unprecedented times because that's what life is. It's unexpected things happening. So I hate when people say unprecedented times. I'm like, yeah, times will continue to be unprecedented. It's called progress. Yeah. But

yeah that's what's going on right now and so it's also an interesting time first of all if you signed up to volunteer make sure that you're checking your email so we have hundreds of volunteers that signed up but you actually have to then sign up for the specific shifts for petitioning we really need you right now like March is the time that we really really need all of our volunteers to be signing up during the week during the weekends all the time and then donations obviously I'll keep making that plea I'm

Again, I don't like asking for money, but I have to, right? It pays staff. It enlarges the campaign. It's so important. And it is a way that if every single person who listens to this podcast in America, I

you know, gave 20, 30 bucks, it really would make a big difference. The power of grassroots, I believe in more than ever. The power of voting, I believe in more than ever. Make sure whatever local elections are happening in your community, make sure that you are registered to vote by the proper deadline. Make sure that if you have a closed primary that you have registered with, you know, the Democratic or the Republican Party or whatever party it is that you want to

be a member of, but to vote in that primary. Make sure you familiarize yourself with the local politicians running. Maybe if there's one that you really like that you think could be the change that you want to see in your community, offer to help that candidate by canvassing for that candidate or put

you know, petitioning, petitioning happens everywhere, petitioning for that candidate. So just, you know, those are the ways, you know, when you feel so overwhelmed and you write us emails here and on without a country, I feel so overwhelmed. I don't know what to do. Get out into the community and really do something right. You don't have to run for office yourself, but there's a million other ways you can help. Um, you know, it's sad that we live in a country where people literally died to get the, uh, the right to vote for different communities. Um,

And so many people don't even bother to vote on Election Day. Voting is the bare minimum we all should be doing to live in a place, right? It's the bare minimum. And then there are so many other things that we need to do. We need to participate in voting.

to have a functioning democracy, right? We wonder why are things the way they are? Well, part of it is because we've lost faith and we have stopped participating in the democratic process, right? Democracy is of the people, but if the people stop participating, that's how we get people at the top taking complete control, which we see happening right now.

Donald Trump is just taking over our government right now, Elon Musk too. And so if that is not enough to get you to vote, I'm not sure what to tell you. But what I can tell you, and I will keep telling you, is that your vote does make a difference and your vote does have an impact. Again, I don't know if we talked about this last week or I've talked about this numerous times before, certainly on Without a Country, but one of the Republican Party's strategies is

was just local women in like Pennsylvania and other areas. They went and they took it upon themselves to get Amish people registered to vote and ran little vans back and forth from Amish communities to polling stations. And this accounted for tens of thousands of votes that were added to Donald Trump's tally. And these are just women,

you know, everyday women in the neighborhood, they, they, they did this because they knew this was an area. Uh, this was, these were people who, because of like times and their religion and their religious services, a lot of times, like it just didn't work out that they were able to vote. And they were like, no, we know that they're going to vote Republican. So we're going to make it so much easier, uh, for them to vote. It's truly the opposite of voter suppression, which is also happening. Um,

and then for my international fans and this is for everyone, but like, uh, for our, for my fans, for the listeners, um, it is, uh, uh,

you kind of asking what you can do. A really helpful thing to do is when you see articles being written about the other candidates in the New York Times or Gothamist or city and state, which is more local or Politico, any of these things online, right? You're on Instagram anyway, you know, follow these things, float around to a couple of them and,

And you'll see people in the comments panicked, being like, who do I vote for? Are there any good options? And literally just be like, hey, check out at Corinne Fisher for mayor. That is so helpful because it's just like people are in those comments looking for something, for something that's not Andrew Cuomo, for something that is not Eric Adams.

And so just commenting that or responding to people who are like, are there any candidates under 60? Yes, there is. Corinne Fisher from air. And you guys have already started doing that. But I just think that's like, you know, if everyone wants to help, um, those are absolutely great ways to help. Cause I mean, I can't be doing it myself. You know, I can't be like, check out Corinne Fisher. That's like psychotic. Um,

But so those are just some, some calls to action for this week. But yeah, we're, we're deep in the petitioning process. So, and it's been interesting. We're just, you know, standing in unions square park during the farmer's market. And I approached a lot of young people. That was my technique, especially young women. And,

you know, you have to ask them, are you a registered Democrat? We start the conversation. Most people were very receptive, but there are, there are also lots of people who are kind of like, I'm good. And like, you're good on what you're good on not participating in America. You're good on not being a part of electing leaders, but good on complaining about them. Like I just really don't have any tolerance for people who are like, don't have two seconds for a conversation that could truly change the trajectory of an entire city. Yeah.

Yeah. So just, you know, there's all this to say if someone asks you to stop, are you registered Democrat? Are you registered Republican? They're not asking for their health. They're asking because they're excited about someone and they want you to learn about them. So just give them two minutes, you know? Yeah, ma'am.

I've been listening to this podcast that so many people have recommended to me, and I finally got around to listening to it. Oh, the telepathy ones? Yeah, the telepathy tapes. It talks about something that I already knew about that I was so excited to learn that I'm like, how are we not all talking about this? And so the main spine of the show is that –

There's been so many studies on autistic kids who are nonverbal and use a typewriter to communicate who have telepathy and have a lot of other psychic abilities that seem very stressful to have. But I'm on episode six now. It's so fucking fascinating. But it's an interesting –

It brings up – like I love listening to podcasts that make me think and I like have little conversations with myself in my head and I pause it. This one certainly is no exception and just about energy. Like energy is something we can all feel. Obviously, the theme of this show, sexual energy, is very empowering when it's used consensually and correctly and to –

your authentic self, like you're authentically being your sexual self. It's one of the best feelings to me in the world when you can express yourself like that. And so this podcast just talks about child after child and all these people doing studies and who have worked with nonverbal autistic kids. And I'm like, guys, we cannot sleep on this. Like they, we are overlooking this huge gift that they have that is just, it's so exciting and so fascinating. And I think I'm also of the belief that I think everybody has it.

But the reason I brought that up is because listening to that podcast and thinking about energy and how we all have like these energetic – like you could throw an energetic dart at somebody when you're pissed at them and it feels shitty or like being in traffic and being road ragey. It just made me more mindful of my energy. And so I've been using this petitioning process when I try to like wrangle New Yorkers over to a clipboard to sign things.

for you uh i've been especially when we were in union square i've just been doing like little experiments of like not asking every single person because then what that does is my energy is like hey are you registered hey are you registered hey and so like every person i ask is getting this like buzzy anxious off energy oh yeah i definitely don't ask every person i i'm i i've gotten so good at being able to tell by looking at someone who's a registered demon

Yeah, me too. And who isn't? And then my track record was like real good. Once I started being picky with who I asked, I'm like, oh, and it's all, it's all energy. It's all energy. Um, and I could, I could tell even the ones when the words leave my mouth, I'm like, they're going to say no, or they're going to tell me to fuck off. And they always do. And I'm like, nice.

it's like when we did our live show and we'd had the dating game and we asked the girlfriends to leave with me and the boys weren't with you and we're like which one of your friends does your girlfriend want to fuck the most if she had a pick would you think and then by the time they come back on stage and she's they're like Andrew and the whole room is like she wants to

We're all so excited. We're like all behind it. It's like, it's kind of like that feeling. It's very like, yeah, I was right. Even if you're mean about it, uh, I was right that you were going to be mean about it. Um, so it's very interesting. And I also, um, gets a flirt.

It's kind of fun. I wasn't flirting with anyone, but yes. I was. With my eyes. It also just makes me laugh in a city like New York City where everyone is so on their high horse about their social and political beliefs. The

you know, and this is not all New Yorkers, but some, the amount of attitude from some people for even daring to ask, it's like, do you want things to change or do you just want to talk like you want things to change? I think so many people don't even understand that every single candidate, including Andrew Cuomo, including Eric Adams has to send a team out to do this. Yeah. Obviously the more grassroots candidates will have people in more public areas. Whereas the other, uh,

you know, the higher end candidates, you know, in quotes, we'll just have it done among their, you know, little democratic clubs and, and, and, and everything like that. But do you want,

government to be happening out of sight because if you keep not engaging with it that's what's going to continue continue to happen so you think government should be a separate thing that's happening out of your eyesight when when the other option is that it happens in your eyesight and you participate and you have a say i just can't it's just very hard for me to digest that yeah

All right. So we're going to bring our guests. Well, one thing I also wanted to promote or like put in your ear, speaking of non-American listeners, if you live in London, England, I'm going to be there and I'm pretty sure I'm just giving you a save the date. It's not booked yet, but I'm in the process of Monday, April 7th. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have a 7 p.m. show somewhere in London. So I know we have a lot of

London listeners and last time I was there I sold out the Leicester Square Theatre which was fucking amazing you guys are such good comedy audiences you're very shy at first but then once you get massaged you're rowdy and I really appreciate that so just save the date and I'll you know details coming soon

Speaking of that, this was such a fascinating conversation. I could have talked to this guy for hours. So much knowledge about – I have a lot of stand-up bits about animal behavior. I love comparing animal behavior to human behavior. And this guest, it's part of his job and he wrote a book about it. He's a professor of biology and he's the author of several books but the latest one being The Sexual Evolution, How 500 Million Years of Sex, Gender, and Mating Shape Modern Relationships.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show Nathan Lentz.

Picture this, you're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom, you realise you're missing a part. It's okay, because you know whatever it is, it's on eBay. They've got everything, brakes, headlights, cold air intakes, whatever you need, and it's guaranteed to fit, which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing. All the parts you need at prices you'll love, guaranteed to fit every time. eBay, things people love.

I used to think buying foundation online was impossible. How am I supposed to find my shade when I can't even get it right in store? Then I discovered Il Makiage. I took their AI-powered quiz to find my custom match, and wow, this foundation is literally my skin in a bottle. The undertone and coverage are spot on. It's so neutral and weightless, I can't even tell I'm wearing makeup.

Plus, with Try Before You Buy, you can try your full size at home for 14 days. Take the Power Match Quiz now at ilmakiage.com slash quiz. I-L-M-A-K-I-A-G-E dot com slash quiz. Now find island-inspired, limited-time flavors at Whole Foods Market for the Explore the Tropic sales event.

Enjoy pre-marinated mains like mango coconut salmon and pineapple teriyaki chicken and pair them with seasoned ready-to-heat beans from a dozen cousins. Need dinner in a snap? Grab zesty lime shrimp salad, mango turkey burgers, and more from Prepared Foods. And, of course, there's the mango yuzu chantilly cake. Explore the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market in-store and online.

Okay, guys, we are here with Nathan Lentz, the author of The Sexual Evolution, How 500 Million Years of Sex, Gender, and Mating Shape Modern Relationships. So happy to have you. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure to get the invitation. Yeah, yeah. Well, when I got the kind of like breakdown of your book, I'm like, yes, this is our shit because we've done the show for over 11 years. And...

Sex somehow is still – there's so many mysterious parts to it. Why did you write this book? Well, it's funny that you ask that because I wrote this book in a different world than we now live in when it comes to sex and gender. I wrote this – I started writing this book about six, seven years ago. And what I was reacting against was increasingly we're seeing young people –

uh, sort of, uh, define themselves or refuse to define themselves with hard categories and labels. And, you know, nowadays everybody's pansexual and demisexual and, um, heteroflexible and, and polyamorous and a lot of poly out there, not, non, not consensual, non monogamy and all this. And I,

So what I was reacting against was the reactions to that. Okay. Because everybody wants to pretend that these are new things. These are new and crazy ways of being. And oh my gosh, all of our vaulted institutions are crumbling. But really, very clearly, what this is is a rediscovery of a more expansive relationship with sex that we used to have, that our ancestors used to have. We used to be freer, right? Much more freer. It seems like. Much more freer. And our animal cousins are much more free. Yes. And the idea that...

Yeah.

And there's a long natural history to all of this that doesn't include hard boundaries and strict definitions. And so what I wanted to do was present sort of the natural history of sex, gender, and sexuality with the theme of diversity is really the theme. Yeah. There's so many species of animals. I have a bit that I do on stage where both stand-up comedians about how...

about the way male birds courts a female bird and how it's so elaborate and how they just don't, the joke is basically like that, you know, they get rejected most of the time and they don't slide into your DMS going, I don't want to fuck you anyway, fat bitch. And how like, you know, it's,

Animals just seem to be way chiller about how they fuck. But at the same time, we have had a lot of systems trying to control how we mate, how we fuck, how we define ourselves. So when you put a blanket over any part of somebody, let alone their sexual expression, the shit's going to hit the fan eventually. Right. I think that the...

Social control is what you're alluding to is really the only thing that restricts us. And it has restricted us for such a long time that people have gotten used to it as what is normal.

Yeah.

So it's like, well, not only are you not going to do that to me, sir, but I'm going to have my pussy spread and the whole world is going to see it. So it's like trying to maintain control of our own expression often does result in us going a little bit farther than we want to go, which I think is an interesting part of –

Well, you have to take a stand and reassert your autonomy over your body and your sexuality. And that's – I mean there's often a theme in anthropology that the – if you go to repressive societies and then look at their porn search history. Oh, it's the most – it's the freakiest stuff. Yeah, and you can predict the taboos based on what people go and seek in their porn searches. Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah, we often are self-defeating in this social control anyway because people are going to do what they're going to do. And also, even when we're successful in social control, what is it that we're building? What's the goal? Great question. And so that's really what I was pushing back against. But as I said...

The world's changed a lot. Even since the book went to press in the summer, gender has been suddenly thrown very much into the spotlight. And a lot of progress that we were making on diversity in approach to gender, it's now retrenched the other way.

The federal government's now declaring there's only two genders, only two sexes based on the gametes you make at conception. You don't make gametes at conception. I mean, there's a number of things wrong with that. We're also all born – we start out biologically female every single zygote. I mean, the default program is female development for sure. And I would say sex unspecified for a while. Yeah. A good eight weeks at a minimum, 12 weeks really. Yeah.

And then if there isn't an intervention, default female development, at least anatomically. So I think that the notion that there's only two sexes and only two genders is –

And the fact that they've retreated to gametes, sperm and egg, to me, that proves that they know they can't win the argument on the rest of your body. Right. Because there's no way the rest of the body fits in two nice, neat buckets. Never. Not even close, right? Yeah. So the only thing that we have that's kind of binary is...

Sperm and eggs. That's their last retreat. It's the only thing they can hang their head on it so far. I think that's right. Yeah. I am waiting for them to make it illegal to jerk off because look at all those potential babies you're killing. Fuck you. Fuck you, dude. Stop jerking it. I mean, you joke, but it was illegal to jerk off. Yes. Wait, what was it illegal? Yes, absolutely. The United States wasn't as bad as some of the European societies from Europeans. Yes, yes.

So it's nice to know. Pre-modern times, any unapproved sexuality or sexual expression would get you in trouble. Wow. And of course, approved met heterosexual, married, heterosexual, lifelong commitment, consecrated. Yeah.

That was the only sex that was allowed. And at what point in history do we really see marriage take over and kind of change the course of our sexuality? Marriage, the way we understand it now, was really invented by the Romans. Right. And it was invented purely as a way to... They were fluid.

To codify inheritance, essentially. They invented legitimacy. Yeah, because I'm like, it has to be... Interesting. Especially the fact that we've latched onto it here. It has to be related to money, to capitalism. Yes, true. Because everything in America, you can go back down. Why is this happening? This doesn't make sense. I'm like, oh, it does, monetarily to somebody. Monetarily, right. Because...

Right. Could you imagine that? Right.

Everything was much more free. And we lived in smaller groups. And then it was really with the invention of agriculture where you start to accumulate things that could be passed on, including land. There was no reason to be tied to a specific plot of land before that.

And that's when you really get started. But what's interesting is marriage began as a polygynous system. One man with several women. Which a lot of animal species do operate in that. Yeah. And some of them, it's one woman with a lot of dudes. When I learned about bees...

I was like, I respect bees. I'll never... I love bees now. But there's a species even closer to us that I think is a better model, and that's the bonobo, the pygmy chimpanzee. So it's a matriarchal society in which sex rules the day. Sexual activity is...

Used for reconciliation, for alliance building, social cohesions, just for fun. They're really the most sexual species that we're in any way closely related to. And what I think is really interesting is we're just as related to them as we are the common chimpanzee, but that's the one everyone talks about. Right. The common chimpanzee, which is aggressive and hierarchical, patriarchal. And patriarchal, yeah. Kind of nasty to each other. Yes. Very aggressive. Very aggressive.

But we're equally related to bonobos, equally, because they're sister species. It's like two cousins of yours that are siblings. You're equally related to them both.

So why do we consider chimpanzees, common chimpanzees, the model for human society? Because we've built a pretty nasty society with these hierarchical structures and haves and have-nots. Are bonobos not violent? No, not very much. Look at that. I'm not sure I can work. Yeah, they're animals, so they're not going to be – not everything they do is something we want to emulate, but they are way less aggressive, way less violent than any other ape because they're dominated mostly by sexual activity.

And the most common... And women. Yeah. And female-female sexual activity is the most common. Really? Yeah. Females are constantly having sex with each other. Wow. So male bonobos are less fluid sexually, you would say? They still will have sex with females. They'll still have sex with each other. They're just not as sexual in general as the females. Wow. I guess it's true. They would be somewhat less fluid than the females are. But the...

A man's – a male's rank in bonobo society is by the women he's attached to.

Their rank dominates, right? But in the species we know that are female-dominated, what follows is not female dominance over men. It's equality, roughly. Huh. You know? Huh. Imagine that. Right. And it's not just like I'm using bonobos and taking them too far. You look at Barbary macaques. You look at lemurs. You look at even some human societies that have become matriarchal or were matriarchal.

Again, you don't see women over men. You just seem closer to an egalitarian structure. Yeah. So when women are in charge, it's better for men too.

We're clipping that. No, seriously. I mean, that was always what I thought. That was also talked about in the Barbie movie, too. I mean, that's the same thing that happens when the Kens took over. It was chaos. And when the Barbies were the leaders, everything was nice and everyone has a good time and eating ice cream. I think it's because women – is it because – do you think this is a valid argument of like women have a healthier relationship with their ego?

I don't know the answer. I wish I did. What I can tell you is I don't think there is as natural tendency among women, and not just human women, among female species to dominate. Yeah, right. They want privilege. They want to do well. They do have an ego, a self-interest. Sure. But they don't tend to...

Overpower. Dominate for its own sake. Yeah. That does seem to be a male trait. Right. And it's so interesting. Humans will cite their animalistic tendencies as sometimes excuses and sometimes it's valid, right? But it's like with a man's sexuality, I used to always think about it like, well, if you give a – if you have –

like human food with a dog, the dog's gonna just concentrate on that human food until it's not in the picture anymore or until he eats it. And it's like, that seems like a lot of straight guys with women. They're just like, how much of that is an excuse and how much of that is in their DNA? Do you mean like appetite for novelty? Yeah, or just like...

you know, cheating or just like, I just want to fuck everybody. And, you know, the male sexual appetite seems to be more sloppily thrown up onto the people in their life than a woman's. But they're just as voracious. So are you talking about... You're talking about humans? Yeah, humans. So here's the problem. We don't know what it would be like to be raised without all this cultural stuff on men and on women. So what would humans behave... How would humans behave without that? We don't know. Right. We don't really...

I can point to species where the women are aggressively sexual. Bonobos, for example. The females are more sexual than the males.

Um, and there are human societies that I write about in chapter six of the book that where female sexual autonomy is a paramount, it's a primary value of that system. And the females accordingly are very sexual, um, dominating over men that again, you just don't see that. So I, you know, I wouldn't say it wouldn't take it that far. Um, but, um,

There are cultures where pressuring anyone into sex is seen as taboo. That they would have a taboo against. And you see a lot of frustrated men, of course, because women do do the choosing. So is there some innate difference between maleness and femaleness when it comes to pursuing sexual opportunities? Probably. Sure. That's probably what that's speaking about. Possibly because...

Even though sex does a lot for us besides pregnancy, it does a lot besides that. But a natural consequence of sex is pregnancy sometimes, which is a cost that is purely borne by women. And so because men don't ever have that cost associated with them, you can imagine it would be a more liberal attitude towards it just because...

They don't have to worry about their body completely changing for nine months and then birthing a human that they have to be responsible for. Being responsible for, right, because it doesn't end at birth, right? It's just begun. 18 years later. And humans are uniquely incapable as infants, right? Right. We have the longest childhood too, right? Such a long childhood. Which is – I mean children will not be fully independent for like 40 years, right? So it's an incredible amount of investment and –

For one reason or another, we can talk cultural biology, whatever. Women are sort of stuck with that. Yeah. So there might be more licentiousness among males and humans. But like I said, we don't really know what women would be like if they hadn't had all of their sexuality constrained by patriarchal structures. We don't know. I think, too, there's a lot of straight men I know that are afflicted by how much they think about sex. Is that...

But then I think of society and how we have sexualized women for men for so long in our society. And we're giving men what they – we're feeding them. We're like tickling their sexual appetite. And it's the perfect like foreplay and kind of build for men just culturally and how women are presented to them. So it's like –

you know, a result of that can feel, it can be men feeling entitled to women. But I've talked to a lot of men about who feel afflicted by how much, like they see a woman walking down the street and they see like, you know, the small of her back and they just get aroused and they don't like that. Like they, they're like, it's annoying to them. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah.

Well, inability to control your own urges and distractions, I guess that's something we also should probably do better about teaching men. Sure. But I mean, if you look at hunter-gatherer tribes, for example, they don't wear a lot of clothing. True. And the men and the women, they hold themselves together just fine without all this flesh, you know, that they're constantly being exposed to. And I think that you see that in, you

Go to Reese Beach sometime. This is the gay and lesbian beach, the queer beach in New York City. Oh, wait. Which beach? Where? Reese Beach. R-I-E-S. Oh, wait. Is that the nude one? I've been to the nude one. So it's not officially nude. Oh, yeah. Because there was a lot of fingering happening. Wait a minute. Are you talking about Jones Beach? Maybe. I know you could see the skyline. You could see the skyline of Manhattan in the distance and everyone was naked. You're talking about Sandy Hook, New Jersey.

No, it was in New York. I'm pretty sure it was in New York. Oh, okay. Because there is a nude beach, an official nude beach in New Jersey. Yeah, I've been to that. I mean, I've passed by that one. I haven't been to it, but I went to the clothed one many times in Sandy Hook. Okay. Yeah, well, anyway, Reese Beach is the queer beach. And you'll see, obviously, a lot of flesh, scantily clad everyone. And, you know, pretty much everybody knows how to handle themselves. You know, it's not like everyone's fucking on the beach. Of course it can happen. Anytime two or more are gathered.

You can have sex. What I mean is we grow up with this taboo about bodies and flesh. And so that's how the small of a back can get you out of control is that it's been hyper-sexualized. And just showing flesh has been taboo. And remember, taboo creates that sort of forbidden thing.

It's almost like the second it's taboo, people want it. Exactly. The taboo is part of what's attractive. Right. So that's the problem. And it's not like we can dissect that mentally. It's tough. It just kind of happens. What if you only get turned on by taboo stuff, though? That sucks. I mean, I think that's a lot of people. It is a lot of people. And that's why we have porn. Right. I mean, you know, I was listening to an episode of Esther Perel's Where Should We Begin podcast on my way here. And this one couple that she interviewed, he has a cuckold fetish.

for when his wife, but it's the only thing he gets off to. It's the only thing he masturbates to. And his wife's like, cool. Oh, that's hard. Because it gets to, and I'm a cuck, so I completely relate. That's why I was interested in the interview. But he had this interesting thing where he really liked it. It really turned him on. The second he came, he's like, why am I self-sabotaging my relationship? I don't want this. He feels bad about himself. There's a spiral there of shame. But there's gotta be a healing element to our fetishes.

Right? Well, again, if it's contextualized and it's healthy and you're – if you are taking hold of it, like you're taking control of it rather than it taking control of you, I think that's probably true. But like in a case like that, you have to – I don't know if this man is in sex therapy. If he's on Esther Perel's podcast, he's probably seeking help. So I mean here's the other thing is men's sexual gratification often is very self-directed.

That's the other thing I found is that it can be fairly self-directed. And then when you find a generous male lover who's really interested in you. Yeah, it's the best. You know, oh, right? Oh my God. The first time I ever met a dated a guy that was like obsessed with like eating me. I was like,

Oh, the bar is permanently moved forever. Thank you, sir. Thank you, good sir. And they love it too. Like you both win. Yeah, it's a win-win for sure. And I'm not a sex therapist. I've never been involved in sex therapy. But I think that retraining yourself to enjoy somebody else's sexual gratification has got to be part of that. It's so fun. Part of the way to move through being beholden to a fetish like that. Sure. I would think.

I mean, I guess other animals that aren't human don't have fetishes, although how would you know that? Yeah, I think fetish, as far as I can tell, is definitely tied to taboo always. And so I think it would be weird to have an animal fetish. But some of the things that we have fetishes about have correlation in other animals. So for example, BDSM and other dominance, power control dynamic, you see that in a lot of animals. Really?

Really? Tell me more. And it can play out in a few different ways. But often what you see is it's a proxy measure for the overall strength and wellness of the male most of the time. So having a male forced to overpower a female, for example, is itself a sort of

feats of strength. You have to perform. That's one way to attract a mate is to overpower them. And if only the strongest can do that successfully, then the overall health and vigor of the species is supported. And so, but dolphins are a classic case of this. They tend to pod in sex-segregated groups. So males and females pod separately. Right.

And in those pods, they have a lot of sex, by the way. The males have sex with each other. The females have sex with each other. Yes, they're a very sexual species. The females basically have to begrudgingly accept men, males, in order to become pregnant. And it does not look like a pleasant affair. Yeah, right? Right? And it does not look to be a pleasant affair.

Right. For the females. It really doesn't. I don't. But they obviously understand that they must do it. Yeah. It's like conflicting sort of. Yeah. They just get it. A male has to chase them down, corner them, kind of overpower them. And that's, that's how it. Oh, wait. So is this how that,

that kind of like meme went viral about dolphins can rape. Is that, is that what they mean? What you're explaining now is what people kind of were like, Oh, dolphins can rape. Right. Okay. So that's what that is. In the wrong hands, information like that comes out like that. You know, rape is natural. It's not, you know, right. So the strongest survive. So rape is fine. And you know, there's,

Looking at it as a biologist, you describe the behavior. We don't talk about moral rights and wrongs when we're talking about animal behavior. Sure. It's so interesting to me. But it's so hard to watch too when you know it looks very uncomfortable, very unpleasant, and yet their own instincts tell them, well, we got to go do this. It's the season because it's a seasonal thing generally. And so now we have to go interact with the males for a while and –

And as soon as they can, though, they go back to their sex-segregated groups. So that's why – the thing is with sex in the animal world, it is a lot more free of taboo and things like that. But it's not all rainbows and gumdrops. There's also still technically rape. I mean but the animals don't look at it like that because they don't have those more advanced mind processes of like I was overpowered. I didn't want that.

Right. We don't know. Yeah. It looks unpleasant. And their speech is obviously successful, so they figured out whatever kind of balance has to play out in their head. Is rape common in other animals? Forced copulation. We have to say it that way with animals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. Because they don't think of it like that. Yeah. Forced copulation happens. And in fact, in chimpanzees, common chimpanzees, you see that a lot, including of juveniles and youngsters and –

Oh, interesting. They don't have taboo around age of consent or any of those kinds of things. And that's what I mean. Interesting. And I get accused a lot when I talk about these things of saying, well, my logic must be that if it happens in the animal world, it's perfectly permissible and fine. Yeah, that's not what you're saying. I've never said that. I've never said anything like that. Yeah. You're literally just studying animal behavior. That's it. That's it. And then, and what I am concerned with is what we call natural versus unnatural.

I don't think you can call something unnatural if it's found in all kinds of species. Right. So what we do with that information is up to us as a society. So there's murder and theft. There's lots of things that animals do that we don't want to do, and we've decided we're going to prohibit. Right. And I think everyone agrees that we should. Right.

and child molestation and forced copulation is in that. Right. But where I push back is when someone tries to say homosexuality is unnatural. Because it's certainly not. Or promiscuity is unnatural. Of course not. It's everywhere in the animal kingdom. It's everywhere. So if you're going to ban it, you have to use other reasoning. Go ahead. Right. Try your other reasoning, but don't tell me it's unnatural because that's just simply not true. Yeah. Is there anything that is an actual taboo recognized in the animal kingdom? No.

Not as such. When you wear that short-ass skirt. Not as such. But rule-breaking does exist. So animals behave with a social etiquette. There's things you're allowed to do and not allowed to do. The classic case of this was in wolves, which is –

Dogs do this too, so you can relate to this. When they play with each other, they weaken their bites. So if you see two dogs playing, they can play for a while. Nobody gets hurt. But you know how strong their jaws are, right? I mean, they could break a bone with one bite. They could break a bone, but they don't, right? And if they accidentally do bite too hard, the play stops and they are shunned. Animals will turn their back. No one will play. And they have to approach submissively to...

Wow. The apology bow, it's sometimes called. You recognize your dog doing that. Yeah. The head's low, the tail's down. Yeah. It's like, I'm sorry I screwed up. Let me back in. I'm saying I'm sorry. And so then they can have a moment of reconciliation. And so animals have rules. And when they get broken, there's a policy to get back in, all of that. That's normal. That's natural. Are there rules and etiquette around sex? No.

I'm trying to think. One example I talk about in the book is that in Sunfish, males have to – the dominant males have to aggressively court a female. But if it's too aggressive, she bolts. So it's like – Fine line. It really is like human courtship in that way where like you have to pursue –

But if you pursue too hard, that's a turn off too, right? Yeah, exactly. You have to kind of have that right balance. Of course, what I write about in the book is there's often a cooperator male and the two of them are actually better at courting a female than one apart because the cooperator pacifies the dominant male. And they have three-way sex if she agrees. If she agrees. If she agrees.

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills...

Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. What if I told you that right now millions of people are living with a debilitating condition that's so misunderstood many of them don't even know that they have it?

That condition is obsessive compulsive disorder, or OCD. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the Chief Clinical Officer of NoCD. And in the 25 years I've been treating OCD, I've met so many people who are suffering from the condition in silence, unaware of just what it was. OCD can create overwhelming anxiety and fear around what you value most, make you question your identity.

beliefs, and morals, and drive you to perform mentally and physically draining compulsions or rituals. Over my career, I've seen just how devastating OCD can be when it's left untreated. But help is available. That's where NoCD comes in. NoCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for obsessive compulsive disorder.

Our licensed therapists are trained in exposure and response prevention therapy, a specialized treatment proven to be incredibly effective for OCD. So visit no cd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call with our team. That's N O C D.com. How many animals masturbate? Oh,

All of them. They all do? Really? Pretty much, yeah. It's self-soothing, so it makes all the sense. Certainly mammals. Yeah. You have to break it down a little bit into what kind of animal you're talking about. But mammals masturbate. Anybody, whatever they can find to help them, if they can reach, if they can't. Porcupines masturbate. Think about that for a second. Really? Yes. Are you serious? Yes.

So yeah, pretty much all of them will. I mean, and why wouldn't they? And that's the thing. And what we see is, of course, when they're in captivity, they masturbate a lot more than they do in the wild. And of course, the early interpretations were, ah, it's an artifact of captivity. Listen, you jerk off on your days off more than you do on busy days too. Like, that's normal. You have things to do. You gotta go find food. Exactly. You don't have time to masturbate. Yeah, and it's, you can't get horny when you're hungry, for most people. So, like, knowing what,

you know as a biologist about forced copulation do you have any thoughts about breeding like when humans get involved in you know like dog breeding putting them in contraptions and forcing another dog to have sex with them because I mean looking with that looking with the human eye you go that don't that does not look great to me and

Well, you know, increasingly, like with horses and livestock, I don't know so much about dog breeding. But with livestock and other larger animals, they do frozen semen collection and insemination. So there isn't really copulation so much. That way you can get a really prized bull. You do an electro stimulation to gather the specimen. Oh, so you jerk the animal off pretty much. Yeah, with an electric dildo.

They give a shock right in their prostate. Oh, really? So male animals also have a G-spot in their prostate? Mm-hmm. Shut the fuck up. Wow, this is so interesting. Because penetrative anal sex is also very common in nature. Good for them. Yeah.

That's great. I mean, there was a time, there was a period in my, during this podcast where I was trying to like, once I like experienced my male partner having an orgasm that way, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I like preached it like across the world. Any man who hasn't had that done is really missing out. I feel, I'm like, oh, you're missing, you don't even know, dude. Okay. The prostate was put there for a reason. Yeah. Like why would God put, or whoever the hell put like this magical button for you to not push it? Anyway. Yeah.

That's very interesting. And also like – so I – like group sex is something I personally just – huge fan of. How empowering it feels and how – it's like the most human I've ever felt is when I'm at a sex party and everyone is having a good time. You just feel alive in a way that nothing compares to it. There's a lot of animals engaging group sex, right? That's right. Yeah. So they also understand the benefit of it. Yeah. I –

Well, that gets back to our questions about taboo because animals do have group sex. But generally, humans are the only ones that put secrecy around it anyway. Right. So the group sex, I think, somewhat is a rebellion against the whole taboo of privacy and nudity and that kind of thing.

Animals don't have a concept of nudity the way we do. So I've always considered it that. But you're right that animals will have sex in public. And part of it is definitely display. Women, females, I keep doing that. Females will often observe males having sex with each other.

And then it's called eavesdropping and it's very common that they kind of make their choice based on how they're watching the other male because that way they don't have to bother. That's wise. Right, right. It's like you're shopping for the dick. Clearly this one's the one I want because of how he's dominated over the others or whatever it is that they're interested in.

And yeah, he's dropping his gun. You know Siamese fighting fish? No. You know like the betas, they're sometimes called those fighting fish. They're really colorful, small, little, and the males all fight each other. Okay. It used to be thought that the male, the vanquished one then gets the spoils. But actually, the female just watching, she goes and picks the winner.

So it's her observations that are actually, it's female choice. It's her reality. Yeah, yeah. She picks the winners and losers by watching. I'm always, that's amazing.

I'm jealous of animals because they can just be themselves and not get... They don't analyze themselves, it seems. Right. So that inner contemplation is as much a bug as it is a feature of humans because we always think of ourselves... We're so smart. We're the vaulted position in evolution. We're really at the top of all the creation or whatever you want to say. But look at the world we've built for ourselves. It's really hard to defend the notion that we're superior to any other animals considering the last election...

And most of the ones before it and the kind of society we've built and the amount of misery and struggle that humans have now. Yes, we have iPhones. We also have massive amounts of depression, anxiety, suicidality that's just not common in other animals. Do other animals kill themselves?

Not the way we think of it as a death by suicide. Okay. No. Like it's accidental. Like, ah, shit, really thought there was a bottom to that cliff. Yeah, there's like some strategies that naturally end in death. Like spawning in salmon is a mortal process. But I mean, the intentional removing myself, you know, no, there's no equivalent really to that in other animals. And so, yeah, I think that humans, you know, we like to – we consider ourselves the best –

because we're the judges. So if, you know, we're, we write the rules of what it means to be great. So of course we're the greatest, but, but if you look at general happiness and flourishing, it's really hard to, to say that because, yeah, because a small number of people are doing really great right now and everybody else is not. So, but animals can be depressed. I mean, yeah, because I mean, that, that's for sure. I mean, we see it. Where do you see it though? Uh,

when they're in captivity. Zoos and in your house. Yeah, exactly. When people are involved. When they live in our world. Also, the only time I've ever seen an animal overweight is when it's a dog or a cat. So there's a person in its life that just allows it to, I'm like, wow, animals also, like I always forget this. They know how much to eat.

Well, they would certainly self-regulate better in the wild, I think. Yeah. They're also more limited by what they do. So unlimited food generally isn't – although there are species that do. For example, gorillas live in a salad bowl. That's their food. And they self-regulate just fine.

I also think it's fascinating. I watched a video. I'm turning – I'm vegetarian at the moment and probably will eventually be just going full-on vegan just because – for so many reasons. But one video that came across my feed recently that was very interesting is like think of all the animals that you eat as a meat eater. None of them eat meat. They all eat vegetation, which is so interesting. And then it made me realize there's actually not a lot of animals that eat meat.

There's always going to be less. So you have like a pyramid, right? So it takes 10 herbivores to feed one carnivore. That's kind of how you think of the ratio. So at the very bottom, you have like plankton and plants, and then you have the plant eaters, and then you have the meat eaters. And then if you're really...

A deep food chain would have an even trophic layer, which is the predator of the predators, but very rare. Right. And those would be very few and far between, and the most vulnerable to any collapse in the system. So that's why you don't see a lot of those really long food chains. Wow. Four layers at the most, right? Producers, and then consumers, and then secondary consumers. And that's true in the oceans as well as on landscape. You don't see that many trophic layers, as we call it.

there just wouldn't be enough. Yeah. But what's interesting is we think of that as the top of the food chain, but actually the decomposers are above that. And they decompose. Anyway, it is all a cycle.

There was a study I read not that long ago about this tribe that was like one of the few remaining remote tribal people, humans in society, and they were given phones. They were given Wi-Fi, and the depression rate soared. The amount of babies they were having went dramatically down, and it made me go, yeah, if you were to give – if there was a way for some reason hypothetically to give an animal pornography, the species would be eliminated. Right.

Because it's easier. It's more convenient. It's whatever. Even though animals do masturbate, but it's like – and I'm curious. Like do you – like I don't know if any of your studies have led you to this of like does porn ruin people's sexual freedom and expression? So I'm definitely not like a –

a prohibitionist on almost any of this stuff but i do tend to think that uh porn desensitizes you to sexual stimulation uh visual anyway yeah um and and i've noticed myself you know you know if you step away from it for a while your sex life gets better like a bra strap turns you on and i'm like isn't that a better way to live it is it is you don't gotta see a gaping asshole filled with cereal or something to get off like that sounds nice

Yeah, and that's the thing is you'll need it or want it more and more and more until – and nothing but that will satisfy you. So yeah, I think in general it's not good for the individual. However, in other kind of contexts, it's fine. Sometimes – like when you are busy or stressed or whatever, it does kind of release a little bit of a stress valve. Sure. And if you only have 10 or 20 minutes, a lot of times porn is what you got to do. Yeah. 10, like two minutes. Yeah.

It takes two minutes. Oh, man, I wish. So, yeah. But like with other animals, though, they have to – living life from the land –

You have to balance all of your needs. Right. The need for food, the need for social relationships, the need for sex, the need for these things. And so you kind of contextualize it amongst your other needs and it fits this way. We have now – we're living in such an out-of-whack way with all of ours. Too much convenience. It is, yeah. And like we live in this city of 8 million people. That's where we're talking right now. And it is the most isolating place ever.

Right? The loneliness epidemic. So lonely sometimes. I mean, in fact, I often say the first six months I moved to New York were the loneliest I've ever been. Yes. It was the weirdest thing. It's like being in a – like when you're lonely in a romantic relationship, that's probably the loneliest I can ever – like that I've ever felt. For sure. But it's like that multiplied when you feel lonely in New York City because there's all these people but yet it's like – it's almost like a dangling in your front. It is because they all have each other. You're not connected to any of these people. Where did you move from?

I lived in St. Louis before New York. I lived there for eight years. And then I grew up in Decatur, Illinois. Okay, cool. But I've been in New York for over 20 years now. So this is the longest I've lived anywhere. It's such a... I mean, this is the only city, major city I've lived in. But it's just a very free sexual place. And there's like sex clubs and there's just...

I don't know. It feels like if you have taboos or fetishes, they're just so comfortably accepted here that it's like, thank God. You have critical mass for almost anything you want to do. Yeah. Communities of solidarity is what we call that. But it is interesting because I think that social connection –

is such a basic human need to really connect with other people. And social media and everything attached to it seems to have made all of that worse. And that's not what they promised us. Connecting the world. That's what they said. We're connecting the world. Yeah. Because it's more like, look at me than it is connect. I see very little connecting. It's either like self-promotion or

a way to see things that you wouldn't have been exposed to and hate them. Very well put. Good point. Very well put. I think you're right. Right, which is weird. I mean, do we see that in the animal kingdom? Like a violence towards things that are not...

found in like a particular species? Like, do like, would animals fighting each other if they say like, that looks gay. I don't know. Yeah. It's not so much around behaviors, but on identities for sure. Because animals do mark things.

each other in various ways as, as, uh, like in group, in group, out group. Right. Identification is important to most social animals. Yeah. And even sometimes like moms will like dismiss a baby if, if it's, I don't actually know. Rejection is real. Yeah. I'm like, I don't, I don't know the reasoning why.

They smell weird? I'm not sure. Maybe. Yeah, animals definitely define their group and can be very loyal to their group and very hostile to out-group, which can be just the chimpanzee troop next door, but it's a different troop and they will fight. They do have xenophobia. Humans didn't invent that. Maybe we perfected it, but we didn't invent that. But actually, it's interesting that we talk about it that way because humans do have a tolerance for...

of the friendly stranger in a way that most animals don't. Uh-huh. Right? But that depends on me identifying you as friendly. So language, skin tone, nationality, religion. I have to have something that makes you predictable and safe. Right.

then, you know, if I, you know, this, I just listened to a podcast about this the other day, like two Americans will find each other in like the Tokyo airport. Yes. Based on, you know, the baseball cap, whatever it is that they identify. But those two people would not,

run and greet each other in the New York airport. So that kind of, we're both in the out group, but we have this symbolism that connects us. So animals do that too. They just use different markers for that. So belonging is important to every creature. Exactly. Belonging, that's what it comes down to. Yeah. It's so important. And that's why the human brain just, that's what gets us in trouble, I feel like. But sex is such a way that we connect. Yeah.

And it's such an important way because if you think about it, your sexual partners will have certain privilege and access to you that nobody else has, not your parents, not your siblings, not lifelong friends. And you wouldn't hesitate sleeping in the same bed with a sex partner, but you'll never want to sleep in bed with a cousin or a sibling. That's just icky. Yeah, hopefully. Yeah, yeah.

There's a lot of porn categories I would suggest otherwise. Right, right. But then they'd be in the sex category. But that's what I mean. Like our sexual partners do kind of have a sort of special place where their normal rules don't apply. And lots of people in New York have roommates. Lots of roommates out there. But again, you wouldn't share a closet. You wouldn't share a bed. Right. Sex does – it creates a very special bond. Yeah.

Yeah. A very special bond. That's like you really don't get anywhere else. Yeah. I often say in New York, I've encountered two kinds of people, those who don't take sex seriously enough and those who take it way too seriously. Wait, but how would you categorize those two extreme groups? We meet a lot of the second one on this podcast.

Yeah, and I'm like, girl, what are you trying to compensate for? Right, exactly. Exactly. The compensation and the searching and the trying to fill a hole. Literally and metaphorically, yes. I was talking about metaphorically, but I heard it just as I said it. But yeah, like you're trying to fill an emptiness. You're trying to feel a connection. And you're sort of forgetting that, you know, you have sex with somebody a few times, you're going to start to develop a connection. Yeah. A neurohormone-driven attachment to this person. So you need to have respect for that.

Yeah. So that's the half that don't take it seriously enough. Then the other half that take it too seriously have all these hangups and taboos and restrictions and they get all, you know, it's like... It makes it so unsexy. Like we'll get, we get emails all the time from people and the ones that we've got, and we haven't actually got one in a while about polyamorous stuff, but like the...

the rules and that you could do this, but you can't do that. And then the, what you get obsessed over about what they're doing. I'm like, how is any of this fun, dude? Right. Isn't the whole point of having sexual freedom in your life because it enriches your fucking life. If it doesn't enrich your life, stop. Like don't dangle it as some badge if it's not who you are. Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, but at the same time,

If you're talking about consensual non-monogamy, some kind of rules, guidelines is what most people feel safe in approaching. Sure, yeah, yeah. And what it's going to look like with one couple versus another. And there's been ones where I just like, I can't believe that that's what works for me.

for you but apparently it does it's so fascinating to me when some I'm like if I were in your shoes I would run the fuck away but like the fact that this satisfies your needs and it genuinely because you could kind of tell like when someone's doing something because they think they should or they want to keep the relationship but it's not really what they want but when they're actually genuinely doing it you're like good for you dude good for you ugh

So interesting. Is there something from this book, like if you could pick one thing from the book that you wrote that you wish everyone could hear that you could scream it from a rooftop, is there one piece of information that you feel that way about? Gender diversity is normal, natural part of animals and animal behavior. And I would have answered that question differently a year ago. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I think I would have been a little bit more on the sexuality and sexual relationships

because that was kind of the hot thing as I was writing this book. People were experimenting with non-monogamy and labels about their attraction and thinking, you know, heteroflexible. That was all the rage as I was writing this book. But now gender diversity is such under attack that I think that's the lesson I want people to get. And I'm glad it's well represented in the book because other animals do approach their gender and their sex in non-binary ways. Yeah.

Yeah, what's some examples of that? So there are different flavors of maleness and different flavors of femaleness. There's different strategies involved with different creatures. And so they can... There isn't just one bucket of male behavior and female behavior. And there was this tendency among biologists to see it that way, that there's just two ways of being when it comes to reproductive behaviors, male behavior and female behavior. But now that we're looking...

closely and some of the blinders are coming off, we're seeing different ways that you can be a male, different ways that you can be a female. Some of it's behavioral, but some of it's even morphological, meaning how they look. They're different striped birds and they'll have a different strategy. And it adds to the ecological resilience of the species to just have that diversity. It's almost always good. Let me just give you an example about gorillas. What do you know about how gorillas live?

Not much. I just know that they could be aggressive if you come close to them. I mean, it's more like what I learned from Chimp Crazy, and from that I would think they like Chicken McNuggets and Dunkin' Donuts. McDonald's McRibs. And Tanya. Here's what we always thought about gorillas, is that a gorilla group is one male, the silverback male, who has a harem of females, six to eight females, and they're children. And you can only have one adult male,

And when he gets too old, he'll be challenged. And when a new male takes over, he slaughters all the youngsters because they're not his kids and he wants to bring the females into estrus. And he takes over. And that's how we thought gorillas worked. This is the first gorillas that were really described by Dian Fossey. Do you ever see the movie Gorillas in the Mist? No.

No, I don't have it. That's a biopic of Diane Fossey. She's the mother of primatology for gorillas. She's the Jane Goodall of gorillas. And we thought that's how gorillas lived. But in other regions, as we looked at more gorillas, and we see all kinds of different

And there's a group in Karisoke, the Karisoke Research Institute in Uganda, where there's a group of 78 gorillas, multi-male, multi-female. They're all getting along and doing fine. That was one way to be a male. Right. Right? And females, because actually the females are often the social directors of the group. But there's other ways. There's not just one correct way to be a male gorilla or a female gorilla. Right.

And you can't argue that that isn't natural because no one's pressuring a gorilla. Gorillas don't succumb to mental pressure. Go tell that gorilla he's unnatural. Yeah, see how he feels. Right. And that's the thing. And we see that with animal behavior too, especially when we take the blinders off. And so I write in a book stories about these raptors. So it's called the Western Marsh Harrier. So it's a bird of prey, raptors. And it made the news...

maybe 12 years ago because it was the first bird of prey that was discovered to have female mimicry among males. And listen, don't get excited because that's not what it is. You mean they're in drag? So you have some males that look a little different than the other males. And the thing that they really made a big deal of is they have white feathers on top of their head and females have white feathers and males don't.

First of all, there's a lot more variability among marsh harriers than that, but it's never as simple as that. But okay, that's what makes them female mimics. But they don't flock with the females. They don't get aggression from the females, and females are aggressive to one another. The males don't try to mate with them, the regular males. The other males, I shouldn't say regular. And what they do do is they do mobbing behavior, which is to get rid of egg predators that would go in. So whenever a badger or a mouse or something tries to go in and steal the eggs to eat them, the females send out a call,

And the females or these other males root them out. Wow. And that's kind of their job, right? They're mobbers is what they call them. It's mobbing behavior. So these males have just found another way to be, and they have sex with some of the females when they're mobbing, when they're doing that behavior. So this is a successful approach. Mm-hmm.

And it's about 40% of the males. Wow. These are not like isolated freaks here and there. Right. This is a gender. It's a male gender. Maybe the female, like, this is maybe my dumb brain just making it like, but they're being chivalrous. Yeah. You made my baby not die. Like, let's fuck. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of hot. The females reward them. The females reward them with some paternity. Now, the other males are the territorial males.

And they're just too antisocial to do any of this helping, right? So they build a nest and they protect the nest. They are good egg protectors, but they don't do the mobbing behavior. Because that's too social for them. Right. Because they're higher testosterone. That's the thing. High testosterone members of any species tend to be fairly antisocial. That checks. Including the females. That fucking checks. Yeah. But that's the thing is, for a long time, scientists didn't see that because they didn't look for it.

Right. You know, they, they, this is what a male does when there's only two buckets, male bucket and female bucket. When a female, when a male isn't was, does something atypical. Oh, well it's a female mimic.

Right, right. It's not a female mimic. Right, it's just that male expressing themselves in that way. In a different way. And probably the white feathers is part of the, hey, I'm not challenging you. Like it pacifies the males because the other males really are aggressive to one another because they're territorial. So territoriality is a real thing among animals where they, you know, stake out a space and they fight each other and jockey for the best space. So that's,

that male's way of saying, oh, I'm not in that group. I'm not territorial, not challenging you, not going to bother you, and leave me alone. But if you hear that there's a mouse, I'm your guy. And they live peacefully this way. Isn't that beautiful? It's not female mimicry. It's just another way to be male. And that's what chapter two is in the book. I go through all these species in which we know that there's different ways to be a male and different ways to be a female.

but we don't call it gender diversity because, you know, that's too human sounding. Right. Right. But that's what it is. That's so fascinating. There's no one right way to be a male or a female. And I think that, that, you know, the transgender, this is the better way to think. I think about gender actually is, you know, the way you express your sex body and, you know, or, or gender behaviors. You know, when, when, when,

The first transsexuals is what we called them at the time, sought surgical reassignment, gender reassignment, sexual reassignment. The general public was fairly compassionate. Right, because it's like, you're not making this up. Yeah. You want to do this thing. That's not a tiny thing. There's few and far between. And then once you change, you're fully that sex, right? Our coveted categories were intact, right?

Oh, you just move from this bucket to that bucket. We're okay. But the transgender community now is beyond that. We are expressed – they express masculinity and femininity in creative combinations. They're not trying to fit in and pass as one or the other. It's not like if they get a surgery now, they're not transgender anymore.

Yeah. And that's why it bothers people because the social control element of the two buckets, oh, wait, which one are you? Are you a boy or a girl? I can't, I don't know how to deal with you. People get violent when they feel confused. Yes. Which is a very interesting thing to me. The categories are comforting. Yeah. And it upsets people. But that's,

But to bring this full circle, that's what you see in other animals, right? A male is not a female mimic just because he plays around with gendered behaviors. He's just a different kind of male, for example. So the parallel...

for transgender community is the gender diversity we see in animals. And that's natural. It's common. It's helpful even to the species to have that different diversity. We've known that diversity is good. We just are now finally starting to accept that diversity of sex and gender is good.

Right. But we should have seen it all along. And there are animals that experience part of their life male and part of their life female. Yes. And like...

I don't know. Which I kind of think humans do. Yeah, I'm like, I don't even know what the question would be, but it's like, I guess in studying those... First of all, what animals are these? And two, in studying those, like, is there a real marked difference between the male and female part of their lives? Or like, and then what...

would be the purpose of this. Right. So sex switching, or sometimes it's called sequential hermaphrodites. Okay. So they're one and then the other. Fairly common. There's vertebrates, lots of invertebrates. Really? But vertebrates too. You guys must have heard of this about clownfish, right? Yes. They change genders. They change sex, yeah. So what you have in a clownfish group...

Take the beginning of Finding Neve. The opening scene of Cabin... So you have a sea anemone, which are these poisonous sea things. And the clownfish are immune to that. They live in there as a group. And their groups are very small. They're basically nuclear families. You have a breeding male and a breeding female, and then a bunch of other males that are waiting their turn. And they're ranked. So the alpha, the absolute alpha, is a female. And then you have an alpha male, and then a beta male all the way down.

And if you lose the female, the alpha male becomes female, becomes the alpha female. Whoa. And then the beta male becomes the alpha male, and they all move up in rank. Whoa. There's no end to the fascinating thing. That's amazing. Right. So in Finding Nemo, remember, his mom gets lost at the beginning. Right. Yeah. So by the time Marlin found Nemo, he would have been Marlena. Right.

He would have switched sex by the time – it takes about a month. And he would have been his mother. And then – well, this is where it gets weird. They would have formed a breeding pair. Yeah, weird. We can't take that analogy too far. But what I think is fascinating – Didn't make it to the children's film. Caterpillars change. They transition very dramatically. The final point I want to make about the clownfish, one of the reasons why I love it is the other thing that's funny about it is –

They're ranked by age and size. And they will halt their growth when it's not their turn. So if they're a beta or a gamma or a delta, they don't grow. They only grow to the next size when the spot opens up and they move up. How do they control that? By eating less? Yes.

We don't know. Oh, you don't know? Okay. We don't know. Wow. What a magic. We know a little bit about the genes involved in the sex switching because that's been studied. But they all just kind of wait their turn. Interesting. And the common evolutionary narrative is that every creature is just out trying to jockey their way up the top. But here's a system where there's a lot of discipline. After you. Apparently. Yeah, exactly. You wait your turn. Yeah.

And here's why it works, though, is that that anemone is size limited. It's a limited amount of size. Just creating more creatures would poison the anemone with their waste, right? So they have a very – these symbioses are very delicate balances. So it's to no one's benefit for them to over-reproduce.

Right. So that kind of restraint is good. The other thing is by waiting your turn, that's the quality control. Remember, quality control is a big deal in animals. Yeah, sure. Who gets to breed? Well, if you've survived that long that you've made it to the top, you must be pretty good. Now you may fuck. You must have pretty good genes. Yeah, exactly. Now you may fuck. You've waited your turn. Yeah. You've survived all the predators and other things that can happen to you, and now it's your turn. Yeah.

So here's a system, purely social, right? Because it's your relationship to others that determines your place. So it's not just innate. It's social. And I love that. I love that system because it shows the endless creativity of nature. Nature. All I want for myself is I want a house in the woods and I want mini – I want a donkey. I want a goat. I want chickens. I just want every animal I could possibly fucking be around because they are – being in the presence of an animal – I have a dog. Corinne has a dog.

There's something about an animal that is indescribably magical that I cannot – I'll never get with a human ever. Yeah, I agree. I'm a big animal lover. I could be with animals and feel accepted and connected. Even if the animal was like violent at first, I'd be like, I respect – like I'm trying to write this bit. It just – it hasn't come out quite how I want it yet. But I'm like –

I have never been emotionally hurt by an animal, ever. Right, right. And I fucking, humans, take them or leave. Like, I obviously love a deep, powerful connection, but like, I can get that with an animal I've just met so quickly. Right, right. I have to earn the trust of that person to get, like, it's so interesting to me that they have this, like, it's like, regardless of your religious beliefs, animals are closer to God than humans. Well, I think they have a more kind of,

free psychology. Like it's not so complicated. You don't have to break through this, that and the other. And they don't put these walls up. Or if they do, you can understand it fairly quickly. Right. Like my dog just does not like new people.

Yeah. You know, but if you ignore him, if you just don't even look, don't try within a minute. He's like, wait, what's up? Yeah, exactly. He wants your approval. He wants your affection unless you try to give it to him before he's ready and then, oh, he'll hate you forever. And I have a friend, a dear friend who my dog hates. Yeah.

Because he's such a dog person that he couldn't help himself. Yeah. He got his butt hurt. Leave him alone. He couldn't do it. And he kept trying to get in my dog's face. And I was like, no, that's not how he works. Yeah, that's not how you're making it worse. Yep. But if you pretend, it's like dating in the gay world. Just pretend you don't see him. Don't notice him at all. Yeah. He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Then he'll come up to you. I remember when I first learned that orca whales will pass down hunting methods to their pod, and sometimes you have one pod that's the only pod in the world that hunts like that. And I was like... Culture. That's culture. Yes. And ever since I learned that, I'm like, okay. Animals have something so much deeper to them. What is the most impressive thing you've learned about any animal species? They're like top two. I mean, I'm sure you've learned so much. Well, before I even answer that, actually, I think the answer is...

Your example you just gave. So orcas, you know who leads the hunting group though, right? The grandma, right? The older females. Yes. And so one of the... We used to think that menopause was a uniquely human phenomenon. But we now know that it's not. No, no, no, no. It's been discovered in almost every species of toothed whales, which is the orcas. Interesting. Orcas is in that group. So let's talk about this because it's fascinating to me. So you have these hunting pods, right?

And they're invariably led by... It's a matriarchal species, so invariably led by females. And they're generally her offspring and her offspring's offspring. And so what happens in whales is the females stop reproducing about halfway through their natural lifespan, which is very similar to human menopause. The math works out. Although with humans, it's odd because...

I mean, it's different because we have reproductive senescence halfway through the end of the natural lifespan, but women and men live roughly the same. But in orcas, the men die 30 or 40 years. Interesting. And you can have 100-year-old orcas. Oh, word? The oldest one that they found is 102. Wow. So you have... And so what you have is a true extended lifespan, but only in females. So they're menopausal. Why are they menopausal? So...

It's one where cultural knowledge matters, right? So they know where the seals are. They know the hunting grounds. And they will pursue the same hunting grounds year after year. They come back, you know. But the men don't pod with the others. So they're not teachers. The men are not the teachers. The women, the females are the teachers. So, okay, so that's why they lead the pods and they know everything. But why do they stop reproducing? Well, at a certain point in her life...

it works out better for her to support the children that she already has in her children's children, rather than just simply producing more that will compete with each other.

Right? Because they are apex predators. You can't have a bazillion of them around or they eat up all the food and then you're done. Right. And remember that the groups will compete with each other. It is a competitive world out there. So having a smaller group but with better knowledge, better investment makes more sense for them. So every time we've seen menopause in creatures, it always has to do with older individuals that teach menopause.

They have wisdom. They have knowledge that they've accumulated over a lifespan and they pass it on to their children and to their children's children who then pass the torch and it gets passed that way. And we've always thought of this human menopause as this conundrum because we've said, well, why do women continue to be alive after their reproduction? It's so stupid. If I don't want to fuck you, you should just be in the grave. Yeah, like why are they even worth having around if they can't reproduce? And it's because they know things. The wisdom. They know.

know things that they can then teach. And women do tend to be more social with their teaching. Interesting. But the cool part with humans is that rather than just adding on more years, the reproductive senescence happens because we have natural long lifespans. But it doesn't really happen with men, right? Their fertility goes on because...

So the other thing that's unique about women is that childbirth is very costly and very risky. So at a certain point midway through life, just creating more children is going to be such a harm to you. And if you die, you take your wisdom with you. Yeah, right. So it's much better for you to invest that wisdom and share that knowledge down your line. Wow. So that's why. And so the menopausal creatures, you're going to find a matriarchal, social, and that have a lot of cultural wisdom that's important to survival. Okay.

You've probably heard this before. A lot of animals, like killer whales, great example, if they're raised in SeaWorld, you can't just release them because they have no idea what to do. Yeah, all their instincts have been taken out of them. Everything's wrong, yeah. So that just teaches us that, yeah, they really do teach each other things. And so the older generation knows more.

And, you know, Corinne was mentioning earlier, like, animals that change sex over, like, men, I don't know if this is true across the board for all humans, but, like, biological men definitely get more estrogen as they grow older. Like, I know a lot of older men that lose their leg hair that become, like, more sensitive, frankly, and, like, lovely to be around. And they have this, like, new type of, like...

I don't know, essence to them because of the more female hormones in them. Yeah, it's the ratios. The ratios, yeah. Of testosterone. And women, older women have more testosterone, but you totally see that with the way they behave. Like, they don't fuck around. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. Which is interesting to me. It's really hormone ratios that you're getting. I'm way more scared of a grandma than I am of a grandpa. Way more scared, you know? I can see that. So interesting. I can see that. You know, speaking of sex switchers, the species that people don't talk enough about is, do you know that there are all female species of lizards called whiptail lizards? Really? The whole species is female.

and they lay eggs. They don't need no man. They don't need none. And they lay eggs that then hatch and grow into a whole person. That's called parthenogenesis, when an unfertilized egg can just develop. But you know what's funny? Is they still have sex.

And they are induced ovulators, so they'll only ovulate when they have sex. So the females will take turn mounting each other and then lay the eggs. That's beautiful. Isn't it? We can't get rid of sex. Even if you get rid of men, you can't get rid of sex. Wow. Everyone still wants to fuck. Yeah.

Sex is such a – that's why I'm almost still in awe of how we've been doing this podcast for so long and I'm still so interested in it. You never get sick of it. You never run out of topics to talk about because the way people peacock and the way people say what they want and then you add something underneath that or the way like they use sex with violence or they use sex with like expressing their best self and it's just so many layers. Yeah.

Yeah. And when you connect with someone really well that way, like all kinds of vulnerability comes down and you'll be honest about things. And you're like, man, I can't believe I told him that. Yeah. But then it's like, oh, you could do a trust fall. It's good. Yeah. It's good. And man, we've all been burned by that, haven't we? Amen. Amen.

Amen. Yes, we have. That's how this podcast got started. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I think the work you do is so important of exposing how nature has been behaving this whole time. And I think humans have the most to learn from animals, but we rely on humans like you to research the animals, to relay the information. So truly you are doing very important work on this planet. So I really appreciate it. Thank you. And you too.

Thank you. Very much, you too. What would you like to promote? Obviously your book, The Sexual Evolution. I want everybody to buy it. This is the cover. It's so fucking fascinating. Anything else you'd like to promote? Your social media, speaking engagements? You can find me on social media by searching my name. I think I'm the only one. But I'll tell you this. The only thing I do in social media is promote my books. Yeah. As you should. I really dislike social media. Yeah.

I mean, it's not great. It's anti-human. It feels wrong. Something about it feels very icky. Yeah. Somebody I know was just, I sent him something. He's like, do you only use this account to promote your book? As you should. Yeah. You're very healthy about it. Yeah. But anyway, you can find me on social media and I do respond to DM. DM me, you know, and I usually do respond. But I want to promote the idea that diversity is good.

It always has been. And it's such under attack right now. And I just...

It's just such a shame that such a small segment of the population, if you look at the transgender community, is causing such a stir among reactionaries. It's like, get over it. Well, they're being used as pawns, too. It's like, let them fucking live. Yeah, exactly. They're not bothering you. They don't want to bother you. They don't want to be around you. Just let them live. And that's the thing that people don't really understand about the gay community. Most people don't want to be around you. Yeah, it's just...

them live they don't really get that part that's they didn't get the memo that's great um well thank you so much for sitting down with us again pick up this book the sexual evolution by nathan lentz uh this has been guys we fucked the anti-slut shaming podcast we'll talk to you next friday guys we fucked is presented by luminary created and hosted by corinne fisher and christina hutchinson editing and music coordination by eric freddy theme song by rob patterson and jake cozen

Where to start? Oh, today, when we shake Time will tell what's meant to be nonsense I had to make up an apology Never knowing if it were a lie I turned so true, they wouldn't mind a fan To make you think, understand it

Time will burn and men will see that it's all just nonsense. They kind me with one drink of acid. To find words that would fit to catch you up. Insights are so hard to hear. You'll stop. Sin, like the way God made you. You're born evil to be killed by the shitty masters. Time will tell.

And the rest is nonsense I had to make a thing that's rippling in my pants