HOW DO YOU FIGHT WITHOUT FIGHTING? ft. John Kim
01:51:22 Share

They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples. You can choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft? Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they want to feel warm? Sleep Number does that too. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now save 50% off on the new Sleep Number Limited Edition Smart Bed.

Limited time, exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. I mean, it's not you. It's me. Things have gotten so complicated, you know? We just don't click anymore. And I feel like you're slowing me down. That's why I moved to Monday CRM. And it just feels right. It's an intuitive CRM packed with real AI tools and helps my team close deals faster than ever.

If you're ready to use a CRM that actually gets you, visit Monday CRM and start your free trial. Welcome to Guys We Fuck, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. I'm Christina Hudson. I'm Corinne Fisher. The Slutty, Your Horny, and Your Shame.

Hey, you with one? Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about fucking. Hey, fuckers. How you doing? Did you vote? I hope so. Welcome to another episode of Guys, We Fucked. It's the anti-slut-shaming podcast. I'm Corinne Fisher. I'm Christina Hutchinson. Welcome. I'm almost, like, nervous because by the time this episode airs, maybe we'll have known who won. I think, yeah. Yeah, probably. And I don't know which one it's going to be. Genuinely don't. Yeah. Genuinely don't. Wow. Hey, if you want to email us...

about whatever's going on in your life. Sorry about last night show at gmail.com. Make that subject line good. Today's subject line, when a relationship turns serious, I turn psycho. I like that. You know that about yourself. Dear Corinne and Christina, I have listened to Guys We Fucked for over eight years and can't thank you enough for your work. I recently realized I never truly feel like myself when I'm in a serious relationship, but I can't figure out why. Oh.

Yeah, welcome to being a lady.

My anxiety became more prevalent and I wasn't enjoying my alone time the way I did when I was single. Oh, that sucks. When I think back to my previous relationships, this trend seems to occur after a few months when things begin to get more serious, even in situations where I feel the overall relationship dynamic was relatively healthy. I have good friends, a supportive family, albeit not in the area, and I'm pursuing a career I'm extremely passionate about. Therefore, any relationship should simply be a bonus to my already great life

but it does not seem to work that way. My therapist has said that I seem to only be attracted to unavailable individuals, moving soon, et cetera. Oh boy. Love a guy who's moving soon. Oh God. Which is accurate based on my dating habits over the last three years. This is likely because I don't really like the anxious, not fun person I become when I'm in a serious relationship. That makes sense.

Do you have any thoughts on why I may have this sort of mindset shift or how to avoid it? Thanks, Anonymous. One foot out the door. Very me. I mean I think you're undoing a lot of conditioning that's been carved into the grooves of your brain since you were a little girl watching Disney movies. I think that some people – I think a lot – even with being straight, I feel like most people just I guess assume – I guess I'm straight and then it's so interesting to me what so many women come out as –

A lot of them is gay, just straight up gay later in life because they're like, oh, I just – you go to middle school. You meet a boy. You go to prom with them. You get married. Like that's the trajectory and you don't question it, right? You are realizing that maybe your relationship isn't for you. The other thing I will say is I don't know who these guys are that you're dating. You say that they're unavailable. But in terms of their other qualities, I'd be curious what other qualities they have in common. But when you take two people –

the energy of a room changes, right? Like even if this person's great, like you're going to be on your P's and Q's a little bit in a way. I mean, we all want to be like completely 100% comfortable in a relationship. But like we've said on the show before, like I live with my partner now. I'm not just walking around naked like I would if I lived completely alone because I don't want to, I don't want to fuck with the dynamic like that. So, but so, but that even in of itself is like a way that I'm behaving differently. That

maybe five years down the road, that'll get to me. Maybe it won't, who knows. But I think that we're just so kind of used to automatically acting different, uh, a little bit different in a relationship that it's just a lot of undoing you got to do. Yeah. I mean, listen, I have said many, many times on this podcast that I am my worst self in relationships and I feel suffocated really quickly. Um,

It's interesting. I mean, I would say most times... I don't super feel like that when it's someone I really love, but that's only been like a couple instances. So, I mean, if you're... Maybe you're just not...

these, maybe these are not people that you actually want to be in a relationship with. I mean, I feel like that's my assessment of it, but I mean, it took me so long to come to the conclusion that that's what was happening. I mean, sometimes I know that I'm dating someone who's just like a for now person, not a forever person. And I'm like doing that on, but, but, but I'm, I went into that knowing that, you know, the problem there is that I didn't inform the other person. Yeah. Um, they're not going to stick around for that. So you gotta keep it quiet. Uh,

But I mean, that could be what's going on here. I would be interested to see like, what do you feel like? Do you feel suffocated? I mean, because I think there's also this part of me that like,

Like when I immediately feel any, it's not even discomfort, but just like when I'm like, if a relationship disrupts my life in literally any way, I'm like, I can go because I don't need this. Right. And so, I mean, if you feel that way towards a relationship, yeah, you are not a relationship is not a priority in your life. So you shouldn't pursue it. It took me a really long time, literally until maybe I don't know.

a year ago when I finally decided like, okay,

I haven't been taking relationships seriously. Um, and so that's why I'm like getting partners that I don't really like or things aren't going well. And I'm like, now is the time when I'm going to actually like pursue something that I'm going to take seriously. Like there was a part of me that was being a fuck boy, quite honestly. And I had to stop being a fuck boy and decide that I was going to, uh, pursue a relationship, uh, with the same, uh,

like fervor that I pursue my work, work, you know, life, my work pursuits. So, I mean, this is a decision you have to make. It seems like you're on purpose choosing people who, you know, aren't a good fit or who with which the time will be fleeting. Like you're, you're basically self-sabotaging, right?

I mean and I also agree that some people just don't need to be in a relationship or don't want to be and also like maybe that's who you are right now you're only 30 maybe that's who you are right now and maybe later on you'll change your mind and you'll be like yeah I do want to stop fucking around but like girls can be fucked

Fuck boys too. And that's fine. Yeah. But just know that about yourself. Also too, like what, like have you interrogated what you want out of a relationship? Uh, that is also something that evolves as time goes on, or at least it, it's evolved into a thing for me as time went on. Cause I just wanted someone to love and to love me for the longest time. But now, uh,

Now my criteria has drastically – not drastically changed, but like I've added a lot of things to my personal criteria, one of them being that like I want somebody who motivates me not by directly telling me but by their actions to be a better person. I want to be motivated to be a better person in these areas that I would like to be better in and more on top of, and that's a really specific thing. But I think – think about a relationship as something that could possibly give you energy.

to be, you know, you're getting a PhD, you're a PhD student, so you're very ambitious, right? So I would think that you would really thrive on a relationship at some point that would make you want to be even more ambitious or make you proud of how ambitious you are or like you could both be ambitious together. I think like those are things you can get out of a relationship, but sometimes you don't know that until you see it. Yeah, I also think like casually dating around is more socially accepted for

and more talked about for men than women. But like you can do that too, right? So you say, I was recently in a casual relationship that became a bit more serious. How did it become a bit more serious? Were you a part of that? Was it accidentally? Were you coerced? Were you like, don't fall in love with me? I think it's fine to date a bunch of guys at the same time and say like, and that's a way to maintain the casualness of the relationships. But then you have to be prepared for

if these guys find someone who they really mesh with for them to leave you and fall in love and like, if, will that cause you pain? I don't know. Do you know? Um, and then also, uh, you know, do you have the time to casually date a bunch of people? But I mean, like if you're doing one, I think one serious relationship and a couple casuals take up the same amount of time, honestly. Yeah.

So I think that's like also something you could think about. Be like, you have to perhaps maybe be more serious about your pursuit of something casual and keeping it casual. Keeping something casual also requires boundaries, right? You know? So I think a lot of times, you know, men will talk about being coerced into a serious relationship, but women can be coerced into a serious relationship just as easily or like kind of just like, you know, fall into one. And that seems like maybe that's what's happening. You know,

You should only be in a serious relationship if you make the conscientious decision and talk about it with the other person that you will be entering that. It shouldn't just like happen. Yeah. A relationship shouldn't happen to you. You should be an active participant in it. So I think maybe take a little bit more control over the boundaries and constraints of the relationships in which you partake in. Yeah. Hope that helps.

Are you in Tulsa, Oklahoma? You are? Well, shit. I'm coming there. I'm going to be headlining January 10th and 11th, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and then Toronto. I'm going to be headlining Comedy Bar January 17th and 18th. And guys, I don't know who's president at the moment while we're listening. I mean, it's Biden, but like who's going to be president next? But, you know...

Life's crazy. Life's hard. It's tough. And I had this image that it wasn't. And boy, was I wrong. And you know what? It's really fun to lament about it. We're going through and my Patreon is a space where you can do just that for once a week. We hop on a zoom for one hour and we go around and you could share whatever it is that you fucking want to talk about. It could be super dark and intense. It could be a nothing issue. It could be something you need to talk out to see how you feel about it. And a really cool thing that has been happening in this is discussions of like people with

very crazy spiritual like gifts or experiences like because y'all know that I love that these topics so much aliens and ghosts and psychedelic related topics that I've been getting a lot of people coming to these with with stories that have kind of blown me away. So it's a really great space.

that I love that I've created. And I would love for you to join patreon.com slash Christina Hutchinson. And then my solo podcast, The Voices in Our Heads, is out and I am diving into the woo woo. Oh, so hard. So fucking hard. I recently interviewed, it'll already be out now, Alan Steinfeld, who wrote the book Making Contact with 10 guest authors, most of them being ex heads of government, and just discussing the alien phenomena. He had an abduction. And

And then all of you guys – He himself was abducted? Oh, wow. And he got an implant in the back of his leg. And I put an Instagram story before I interviewed him like, hey, I know people have sent me some stories. But if you're following me and you've had an experience where you saw a UFO, you were abducted, whatever it is, DM it to me. Yo, I have –

dozens of stories that are just like, woo, crazy. So I read a couple of them on Ellen's episode and then I'll be reading the rest on other show episodes. Christina's seething with jealousy. I honestly, my biggest takeaway was I was shocked at how jealous I was. You know how you get jealous if a hot chick hits on my boyfriend and I'll fucking kill you? I'll fucking kill you? I'm more jealous of someone who was abducted by aliens. Understandable. That's your passion. I didn't see that coming, man. Yeah, no, I saw it coming. I really didn't.

I hate when other people know me better than me, but whatever it is, what it is. I'm really jealous, but I'm also happy for you.

okay so wait for this implant for a second like he like you can you you touched it or uh no well he he had marks on the back of his leg and he said that it got like he did he have it removed or did the aliens like dissolved oh yeah like you know stitches when dogs get like it does all but it was but what was the implant like a piece of technology yeah it was like some type of tracking thing he was he was presuming he doesn't know like he doesn't have an air tag yeah kind of kind of

Interesting. And there, yeah, there's a lot of theories about, and a lot of abduction people who have claimed to have been abducted talk about hybrids. Like people, aliens are basically abducting people, implanting them or taking the eggs or semen out of their bodies. That's why a lot of people when they say they get abducted and they got like

you know, knives and things poking them. They didn't feel anything, but that they were extracting cells. Oh yeah. And it's like, yeah, people are like, well, no, some aliens are evil. Guess what? Some people are fucking awful ass, evil bullshit people that shouldn't be alive, but like they are. So yeah, aliens can be shit too, but most of them are good. I'll have, you know,

And if you're interested in politics, I do a show every Wednesday on YouTube. I live stream at 9 p.m. Eastern time without a country. And yeah, we'll be covering. You know what? No matter who's president, I'm going to accept the results. Me too, dude. It's very patriotic of me. No, me too. I think that's what being a patriot is accepting. Agreeing. We all agreed upon this is how the government that we want to live under. Yeah. Yeah.

And this is how we vote. And when the people decide when the majority of people, that's the president, then that's our president. And that whoever it is, is our president. I totally agree with you. I, that, that makes more, that type of attitude is very, um, characteristic of your mature nature. Um, it's a very uncharacteristic of mine cause I don't have a mature nature yet. It's not even maturity. It's just,

It's just, yeah, it is. So true. It's just, it is. So yeah. You know, whoever wins helps all of us. Yeah. Really do. Yeah. Oh God. Oh, well.

I'm so glad though that you have like the discernment and the wherewithal to remain calm in these discussions. It's taken many, many, many years, you know? And I mean, I think there is a part of, you know, just cause I'm, you know, a couple of years older than you, you just get tired. I guess I can't wait to get tired. You know, I'm not, I'm still doing my makeup, but I've given up in other ways. Yeah. It looks great. Thank you.

Um, someone dim Christina's light. Somebody please. I've dated the biggest pieces of trash and they managed to not dim it. Um, but yeah, if you want to listen, we do live stream and you can call it NC span style. It's a fun show. We talk politics and we talk about, you know, the, anyone from the right, the left, anywhere in the middle is, is welcome. Um, and I, and I truly mean that it's been a really great experience and so many people are joining the conversation every week. It's just a,

You know, it's just sharpening your critical thinking skills and a pursuit of truth. That's really the quest with Without a Country. We also do now have a Patreon where you get an exclusive news story every week for the Patreons. And there is a dictator. The position is currently taken.

Um, but yeah, no, that's hilarious. You're a dictator. That's a hundred dollars a month and it's Hannah Pendergrass right now. All hail. Um, but yeah, it's, it's a super fun space. And so you can go to a patreon.com slash without a country if you want to join that. But, uh, you know, no matter, even if the person that you didn't vote for, and perhaps even more so, even if the person that you didn't vote for wins the election, uh, you know, don't be someone who's only interested in politics, uh,

around a presidential election because the presidential election is like the height of American politics, right? But there's so many steps and things you can do and ways you can be active and engaged before that. And I know people feel overwhelmed, like what can I do as an everyday average citizen? Well, you can get involved in local politics and that's how it starts to get to president. Yeah, yes, us as individuals, we don't have very much power over

who becomes president outside of our singular vote, which is important. But before that, there's so many steps that will be taken, whether it's you getting involved in local government or campaigning for, you know, mayor, governor, whoever it is, like all these steps are important. And I urge you to not just think of politics as something that a small group of people are interested in. You can make it interesting. And that's what we try to do on this show. So that's my little speech.

Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it and then switching to Intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. That's why Finn, the world's leading AI customer service agent, is now available on every help desk. Finn can instantly resolve up to 80% of your tickets, which makes your customers happier and gets you off the customer service rep hiring treadmill. Finn by Intercom, the leading customer service AI agent, now

Now available on every help desk.

Track your car's value with Carvana Value Tracker today. Why wait to see if you'll get something you like this Valentine's Day when you can go to BlueNile.com and find something you'll love? Whether you're looking to treat yourself to a little winter sparkle or show a galentine how much you appreciate them, Blue Nile offers a wide selection of high-quality designs, expert guidance, and free 30-day returns for the ultimate peace of mind.

You can even design your own jewelry. Right now, save up to 50% at BlueNile.com. That's BlueNile.com.

Yay. Yeah. Would you ever run? Oh, well, that's one of the you know, we were we were trying to find positive things about Donald Trump. And that's truly one of the things that he's done for me is I thought because I am a comedian and the things I've said and the footage of me that's available online, I thought I would be unable to become president. But he's made this a real realistic thing.

thing for me. So yeah, I actually would be very interested in running for politics. Well, it's also between Donald Trump and then also there's a woman, she's Australian, but she's part of the animal rights party in Australia. Her name is Georgie Purcell and she's a former sex, sex worker and she gets so much slut shaming on online, but yeah, they have an animal rights party in Australia, which I think is really cool. And that's one of the things that I think we should be working towards as younger people in society. Maybe,

Yes, I agree. It shouldn't be a two party system, but we need to take steps towards making it to dismantle, you know, and there are other parties, you know, there are people running for the communist part, you know, party right now. But you'd have to be like super into politics to know who, you know, they are. But, you know, it is happening. So good. I think we should, you know, just keep keep working and not and not lose hope. Truly, no matter who wins. Yeah. Yeah. You know, almost more work to be done, you know, if Donald Trump wins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. For sure. And then it'll light a fire under people's ass. I'm like, I wonder, but it'll light a, if Kamala wins, the fire. But also not to be complacent if Kamala wins. Right. Don't think, oh, we're in the clear now. It's four years, guys. Right. That really flies by unless you're in a relationship, then it kind of really goes slowly. Drag.

Drags, drags, drags. Like you got a bag of dirt behind you that you can't untie from your left leg. And it's like your terrifier Santa Claus hauling a corpse. You know? Yeah, this election has been interesting because there's not a lot of drama going on in my life, which is great. I mean, I love that. But then part of me is like, hmm, I'm bored. So this election has really taken the cake. I...

I mean, I am like so jazzed every week heading into without a country because I find presidential elections like truly titillating. Like this is a Super Bowl. I am amped the fuck up. Did your high school. My high school did like fake presidential elections where like we did. Yeah. And we voted for our candidate and stuff. We did that, too. And then obviously we had, you know, real student student elections. Yeah. Yeah.

Did you run for student government? Yeah, vice president. Nice. Did you win? No, because I was going to do a good job. And I was trying to really talk about policy and everyone was just like, yeah, basically. I was trying to tell, I was trying to make real change and everyone's just like, but why?

we want, uh, cupcakes in the, like people were, people were like concentrating. Like they wanted more desserts in the cafeteria. And I was trying to concentrate on why do we have to sign a permission slip to bring a person of the same sex to prom? And everyone's like, we don't care about that part.

Oh, boy. Yeah. So this has been who I am now is very much who I have always been. That's great. Not a lot of people get to say that. And I've not met a lot of people. I just can't get the message. It's like, Corinne, concentrate on the cupcakes. I think the lesson I need to learn is that I need to lure people in with the promise of cupcakes. And then when they're not looking, give the gays rights. It's so funny you say that.

Our brand for student council in fourth grade. Yeah, you did. You busy boy. You busy boy. I remember watching everyone's speeches who were running and they were all policy driven. Fourth graders? Yes. It was like whatever the policy is in fourth grade, like, oh, we'll make it. We'll try to make recess, all this stuff.

Recess. Long, long recess for all the kids. Yeah, stuff like that. That's the promises he's going to make. That's so cute. That's Trump-style promises. There's no way that you'll get it going, but goddamn does it sound good. You'll get the people riled up. Yes. But then when I went up there, I won because I was like, I will blow everyone else's treats out of the water for the birthday. I thought you were going to say you were going to blow everyone else's. No, not going to blow everyone else's. I was like, Eric. No, and I won because I promised great treats for my birthday. But did you deliver on it?

I mean, you had to get your mom to make them. You guess? I guess so. I don't know. You don't remember that part? Fraudulent leader up here. Yeah, I went to one meeting and then I never went again. Because I was like, oh, this sucks. I didn't want this at all. I showed up. Even when I didn't win, I still was active in the student government. This is exactly what happened.

exactly who I am that's like me in seventh grade when I didn't make the play but I still stayed and worked with the director because I was in love with him though I just wanted to be around him every second I could that was a third option that we hadn't looked at but then it made me love theater so thanks O'Brien oh my god I've always kind of been the same too

That's sweet. Guys, we fuck podcasts. Please, actually don't change. That's our thoughts here on the show. Who needs it? Who needs it? All right. Should we bring our guest on? Let's do it. All right. We love this guest. Yeah. He's coming back to the show. He's an author. He's a podcast host. And he's a self-proclaimed angry therapist. That's my kind of fucking therapist. Making his second Guys We Fucked appearance.

with his new book, Breakup on Purpose. Ooh, let's fucking fight, y'all. Outlining all the different types of breakups. Ladies and gentlemen, please give a warm welcome to John Kim. ♪

Guys, we are here with John Kim. Welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me. So excited to have you, you angry little therapist. Second at bat. Yeah. I love anger. I love anger. And I love that you describe yourself as an angry therapist. I love when people lean into it because it's a real emotion that's very powerful. I was angry because I was unhappy in my 30s. And then I realized that calling myself the angry therapist humanized myself and

And I think standing on that is better, meaning the therapist not being a cardboard cutout. Right. Because I started on Tumblr. Oh, back in the day. Back in the day, yeah. How do you deal? Do you have rage? I had a Tumblr. Did you? Yeah, of course. Yeah, you're a writer. So 2010 is when I started Tumblr. Oh my gosh. You guys were like in middle school or something?

No, you're in college. Yeah, that's where I started. I'm not 12. Oh, actually, I had already graduated college in 2010. Yeah, I was like, I graduated in 2007. Yeah. I'm not that young. Did you have rage in you? When you say anger. I wouldn't say rage. Angry, reactive. Rage, I see like throwing chairs. Yeah. Yeah. Suitcases. Suitcases, staplers and shit. Bones. If you're in Hollywood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

By the way, I want to applaud you. I want to get back to rage, but I want to applaud you for on the way here. I was listening to the last episode of you guys championing shorter men, not short men, but shorter men who are 5'8". And you said that they were like hot guys on sale. Yeah. Yeah.

Which I thought I was like, yes. And then I was like, wait, what does that mean? Am I on the clearance rack? Because I'm exactly 5'8". So when you guys said that, I was like, yes. And then I was like, wait, on sale? I feel like this is that you had an existential crisis on the way to the show. Yeah. So you wanted to compliment us, but you also wanted to ask us what the fuck we meant by that. Yes. It took a black light to my insecurity. It's like you guys lifted me up and then like at the name. I think that people that are only attracted to tall guys, they're missing out.

It's such, it's like kind of silly. I mean, I think they're not serious about relationships quite frankly. You can have things that you, that you look for ideally, but if you meet someone and you really like them and they're five, eight and not six foot and you connect on all the other levels, but you can't date them because they're six foot, then you're the issue. I've never,

I dated a guy that was shorter than me and he was one of my favorite guys I dated like height for me doesn't come into the equation even a little bit like my boyfriend now is very tall I'm like I get it but also it's like I'm fucking in the kitchen with him and I'm looking up and I'm like his head's above mine I can't see him

Well, I mean I grew up with a very tall family. So my dad was 6'6". My brother is 6'4". Really tall family. Wow. And so I am not impressed by tall guys because of that. I was around them all the time. They smell like family. They mean nothing to me. Yeah. But I have data. I've had a lot of tall boyfriends. But for me, my hottest boyfriends have been shorter because I think it's like you basically can trade in, right? So I'm not a 10. I'm an 11. 11. 11.

no but like visually I'm not I'm not a 10 right 42 so for me to ask for everything is like ridiculous but anytime I've traded in a couple inches of height I've gotten way hotter face better personality better body bigger dick you know so I'm like and it's those things to me are better than height I can't also I'm

five, three and a half. I truly can't hear people when they're like at a party when they're that much taller than me. And at a certain point I've dated guys that are so tall that when you're having sex, at least in like a missionary position, it doesn't match up. You can't kiss and like, your mouth is by their nipple. Yeah. This is weird. Yeah. That's not fun. Yeah. There's a saying in Korean, uh, which means that, uh,

If you're tall, you look warm. You're watered down. Oh, interesting. Way to rebrand it, baby. Well, my mom maybe just said that to me to make me feel better. Tall men also? That's nice. Like over six foot one or two? Sorry, Eric. Your lifespan is literally 10 years less. Eric is tall and very handsome. Yes. Eric is tall and handsome. I don't know about his penis size, but he's got the other two. We don't either. We don't either, and that's because we have HR. HR. It's us, but we HR ourselves. We HR ourselves.

Have you had issues with being short? It's always been insecurity because I grew up in the 80s all with white people, surfers, blonde hair, blue eyes. I was the only Asian. Our family was the only Asian family. And so all my American friends were tall.

And I was always the shorter guy. I wasn't short. Like there were people shorter than me, but I wasn't the six feet. Well, also I've read some kind of feedback on dating apps and a lot of, especially Asian men, see that they say that they kind of feel invisible on dating apps and in the world at large. Do you experience that? Oh my God. Are you kidding me? So I'm 51 and I wish I was 30 today.

Really? Yeah, but your age, so you look better than all those white motherfuckers that are 51. You look 12 or like 80. It's like one way or the other. Well, you're just one year when you're 78, then you finally look old. But that shit hits fast because I felt young. I felt young, and then now I've got gray hair. It's my hair. It's hitting hard now. Okay, so you're having like a little midlife crisis in a way? Very, very. Okay, and what does that look like? What thoughts go through your head during that?

You start – so being Asian, I've always looked younger. I think if you're black or Asian, you got the melatonin. You get compliments. Oh, you look so young. After – and maybe for men, it's 50. After 50 for me, it's like I woke up the next day and it was like Freaky Friday. Like I was like, holy shit. All of a sudden you felt like you were old. Bags, hair receding, white hair. Yeah. By the way, at what point do you shave your head? At what point do men – halfway? Halfway?

I don't know. Definitely like... When you start doing the little flip at the top where it's trying to do... Yours is even. You're not in an uncomfortable territory yet of like, John, make a decision. You can also get the hair plugs that go to Turkey. My boyfriend literally flew to Turkey twice. It was cheap. He had to go twice? Yeah, because he can't do it all in one time. They took follicles and they moved it. It looks

Fucking great. They totally redid his hairline, and I didn't expect him to look so much better. I was like, whoa, this looks really good. How long did it take? Because you have to shave your head first. Yeah, they shave your head. So you come back, you look like you have a shaved head, and then it heals over. But then it started growing in a couple months, and I'm like, damn. So a few months, I look like a monk. Yeah, but also, too, bald looks hot. Yeah, you would look good bald. I'm looking at it right now. You could pull off bald. No, I have the widow's peak. I've done it. No, I've seen it. So in the 90s when Brad Pitt was doing it, it was hot.

Women don't like that? I don't give a fuck, honestly. Just act hot. Act like you like yourself. Exactly. I'm serious. Or don't act. Get there. Get there. For sure. Even better. Do the work for years and years and years to like yourself and then go to Turkey and get hair plugs. Yeah. We solved it. When you realize, I still can't live with that. Yeah, definitely I think women care less about –

We're too busy being shit on for our looks that we're doing our own thing and we're preoccupied with that that we're like, I don't even fucking notice what men change their looks. Just remember our birthday and our favorite snack. Jesus Christ. Truly. Also, I think humor and ambition goes a lot further than abs and hair. Yes.

Yeah, I used to think that, but then I just was like, I want to do those parts. So I picked abs. But yes, I hear you in theory. Sometimes you just want a hot piece. Yeah, but also don't women change on what they put weight on as opposed to in your 20s, 30s? Right. Yeah, I'm going the opposite direction. Yeah, no, that's what happens. Digressing. That's what happens. So now what do you put weight on? Abs. Abs.

Yeah, exactly. Because women in their 20s are like, no, I want security. I want passion. I want someone to make me laugh. I provided that for myself because everyone else was dragging their feet. And then so now I don't want abs. Listen, abs are made in the kitchen, but I'm snacking in there. So I got some of my boyfriend's abs. And then I can work and make money. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

That's awesome. What do you want? I mean, you're married to one of the coolest chicks we know, truly. We do not say that about everybody. We love her. It's because she's East Coast. She's just – no, but she's different. Like she's East Coast for sure. That is part of it. But also she just kind of – the way she frames things and her calmness and her like – I would just trust her in a crisis. Truly. And I don't meet a lot of people. Corinne is one of those people I would trust in a crisis. But they're rare to come by. That's from trauma.

And growing up fast and living in fight or flight where your homeostasis is chaos. Yes. Absolute eruption. Absolute eruption. It's amazing. But like have you changed like what you appreciate about your partner? Oh, yeah. How has that evolved? I mean –

One's ability to look inward is huge. You can't, I think, have any kind of healthy – like the plane will not have wings unless you have the ability to repair rupture. So if – I mean it doesn't matter how the chemistry is or how much you love someone. If you guys can't actually repair ruptures, fight without fighting –

take ownership, like it's eventually... I always compare it to like a rocket in a plane where you can meet someone, it's explosive, and there's chemistry, and it just feels amazing, which is a rocket, but it just goes up. Yeah. And eventually it's going to come down. A plane, and also planes, they go somewhere. Right. There's a destination. Yeah. There's a mission, a tent. One engine goes out and it's still gliding. Yeah. I think a plane to have wings that is earned, and I think having a partner who...

able to take ownership, have capacity, be self-aware, all of that stuff. Yeah. It's sexy. It is sexy. That's an interesting response too because I think it's always very interesting when people ask you like, oh, if you're dating someone, like how is it going? I really feel like I cannot give a –

Full answer to that question until we have experienced hardship or conflict. I'm like, I don't, I can't, I'm like, it's going well because nothing bad has happened yet. It's like, to me, there are a couple instances in a relationship when people really show their true colors. And it's like, not that I'm trying to create conflict to see how someone solves it. That's also not a good approach. It'll happen.

But yeah, when it naturally arises, I really can't make the decision on whether or not this is a feasible life partner for me until we tackle conflict together. I always say that's when love starts because you're just a poster. And there's also flinging blanks. And a projection of the other person's thing and all that. Chemicals, dopamine, the honeymoon thing. Yeah. And then you start seeing the dirty socks on the floor and then him not making his bed. Like what stuff? Yeah. And then when the fight happens, then shit gets real.

Yeah. Have you, have there been instances in your current relationship, in your marriage where you've behaved in ways that you're like, that's embarrassing? Yeah, all the time. And how do you, what do you do after that happens? Like, how do you repair that? We all have parts of us. Totally. Totally.

I forgot who wrote the book. I feel like you and I have very traumatic reactions to the – potentially very traumatic reactions to a partner or at least maybe historically you would have. For sure. Yeah. I used to get pouty if I didn't have sex. I have a high libido. Yeah. Learning to self-soothe. Women love that. Where does that come from? Because that's the problem. Which women are you talking about? No, but it's so funny because I'm in a relationship where I have a higher sex drive and I would feel myself. I'm like, that is the least taught attitude, Christina, and you have to really –

Hold yourself back. Well, because then it truly feels like the poutiness as a response to not getting fucked is, to me, wild because it's childish. It's childish. And, like, nothing is less sexy as long as everything is working correctly in your brain than fucking a child. Of course. Of course. I agree. So you're pushing us away. You nailed something. Even pedophiles don't want to fuck a whiny kid. Right. Yeah.

You nailed something, which is the whole mouth to nipples. Right, right, right. When a man turns pouty, it's such a turn off. The energy of that. That is the biggest pussy dryer, when a guy turns pouty. I feel like I've witnessed women be pouty in a relationship where it's kind of cute. Honestly, I've seen my one friend, she gets a little like,

I don't know. It's in a way that I'm like, that's kind of cute. Like if I was dating you, I'd be like, okay. But when men do it, men can't really do it. No, no, no, no. Like once. Yeah. So I wore the pussy dryer t-shirt for a long time. Yeah. 20s, 30s. Then I met a woman who matched me. This was before my current partner. Your poutiness or your sex drive? Yeah, we're just both like pouty. It was a kink. Just diapers and pouty. If you both like it, perfect.

She like – I mean every day, toys. It's the first time I engaged with a squirter. Oh, yeah. I've never had that experience in my life. And that was crazy. But you know what? I needed that experience because it –

stripped to shame it made me realize oh maybe it's not that i have a problem we're all just different and because i thought i had a problem yeah early on i thought what because your sex drive was so high i uh married a 29 christian beautiful but like not a lot a lot of i was i was her first everything basically oh yeah which is sweet yeah but also um

So she walked in. They don't usually fuck in terms of sex drive matching, in terms of kinkiness or dirty. And then there was anger and resentment. And she walked in on me having one quick time video. Remember quick time videos? Yeah. Oh, like you were watching porn?

One video, yeah. It was like a minute long. Okay. And it was as if she walked in on me having sex with another woman. Oh, no. It was like almost a deal breaker. Oh, no. What? Really? We talked to her and we were like, girl. I had that reaction when I was 16. Well, look. We were both young. 29 is not that young, John. I was going to say 29. She was like 25, 26. That's pretty sheltered. Small town Christian. Very bubble. And back then. And also, she was a virgin when I met her. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. No, she was like – Yeah. Yeah. Look, when I felt that way, I was like 17 probably. I remember with Darren, I like thought – he was looking at pictures of Lindsay Lohan's boobs and I'm like, you're basically cheating on me. But I really believed that and it took me a while to undo that. Yeah. But she was – anyway, so I thought I had a problem. Oh, okay. So I was in SA meetings. Yeah.

I was one minute quick. Yeah. Yeah. But I just I wanted to be like the responsible husband. Yeah. Yeah. And then I realized, no, I just kind of have a high sex drive. I'm attracted to adrenaline and dopamine. And it doesn't matter if it's sex or skateboarding or. Yeah. Or, you know, spinning on my head. Yeah. A whole half pipe, whatever. Motorcycles. Yeah. But then I met this one person who was.

off the i couldn't even handle how much you wanted it wow which then normalized it for me okay and then now i'm with so it's like the pendulum swing this way yeah you know and so and it kind of now you have like balance we have balance but i still have a much higher yeah she also had a kid and you know yeah yeah so how do you navigate that in within a relationship

Lots of conversations. Really? What's the conversation? I mean, it's so hard for me even doing this podcast for a decade when the solution to not fucking is a conversation because I can't think of anything that would make me want to fuck less. Like it's not – like talking about a relationship, that's fine and that makes sense to me. But like long conversations about the actual act of sex with the person that you constantly have sex with, that's –

How do we tackle that? Well, we don't talk about like when we're going to have sex or anything surface. Right. More about like respecting space. Oh, okay. How we express that. Okay. If one of you is being annoying. What's happening underneath. Yeah. Okay. So it's more connection. Okay. Not like, okay, at two o'clock, can you lay sideways and then I'm going to do it. Not that. Because there are people who schedule sex. It's not uncommon at all. Yeah. Parents have to schedule. They just have to schedule sex. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you have a kid. Yeah, yeah.

It just doesn't happen. I've done it before and I don't have kids and I'm like, well, this is the way we're having sex and I don't really care. I used to think it was unromantic but I'm like, no, this is life. Yeah. Yeah. We schedule everything else. You literally put it in a Google calendar? Afternoon Delight, four o'clock, three o'clock. Yeah, right before picking up the kids.

Nice. I get excited now because I'm like, oh, that's just going to happen. Right. And you can kind of like play with the idea in your head and have a little bit of foreplay, like mental foreplay. Like it is cool. I used to think like I'm never going to do that. Yeah. That's ridiculous.

Yeah, people think that sex has to be so sporadic all the time. But I'm like we schedule everything else and that doesn't take away the joy of it. So I mean both can be fun. When you're a parent, there are so many other things to do before that. It just keeps getting pushed to the bottom. And by the time you have time for it, you're just exhausted. Yeah. So to move that up, you got to schedule that shit. Yeah, totally. Also another reason not to have a kid.

But thank you for offering that to the show. No, I'm all about one and done. Yeah. All about like I'm done. Was that conversation you had before you had your one child that it was only going to be one? Oh, yeah. She didn't even want kids. I didn't want kids. No, no. It's the best time to have them. And then we had a miscarriage. And then a few months later we really wanted kids. Yeah.

You have a great kid. Was the miscarriage after an unplanned pregnancy or a planned – Yes, unplanned. Okay. So then that experience made you want to have kids. Yeah, something shifted in your life. Interesting. I've heard that before. I totally get that. I got emotional. I was crying. Yeah, because you're like – you think of your future totally different and you think of like this person along with you for the ride, Vanessa, and like whoever your child is going to be and you're like, wait a second. That sounds nice. There's also something about hearing a heartbeat which makes it real. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. As opposed to just an idea. Right, I imagine. So I think it was right at the time where you could hear the baby's heartbeat. Wow. That's got to be a wild moment. And then see it, you know? And then when that baby died, she was angry at her body. And I was like fucking devastated like I lost a parent. Yeah, yeah. And then a few weeks after that, she went on a retreat and she had this weird knowing. She's like,

I want to have a kid. I want to have a kid. Wow. Nice. And first time, boom. Wow. It was almost like her body. It was like, now you can do it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. And then we're on the same page. Done. Cool. That's great. And your kid's so fucking, she's so sweet. She's also sassy. She's great. I mean, there's not, I meet a lot of kids and I mean, I guess I'm,

My nephew I'm obsessed with. I love him. I think he's fantastic. But when I meet a little girl that's like seven, eight, and I'm like, you're cool. She's a little punky Brewster. Yeah. You don't want a daughter who's not sassy in this wild world. I know. Agreed. She can handle herself. Yeah. So you wrote a book, Breakup on Purpose. Yes. Yes.

So why breakups? Why did you want to write about breakups? Because I think when we think about breakups, we think of just, okay, you're going through a breakup. What is there to do? But I think there's different types of breakups. So my way into this book is

the eight different types of breakups and then what's prescribed is different. Yeah. Right. Like a mutual breakup is very different than say a divorce where you own property and have custody. Or just one person wanting to break up and the other person not. That's a whole different set of circumstances. And then my whole theme is that your breakup can actually be a catalyst for your growth. That after an expired relationship, there's the richest soil for growth. Yeah. I am always like –

I have a Patreon where I'll talk to people. It's basically like group therapy. Oh, yeah. And it's interesting because a lot of – when people come on and they're like reeling from a breakup, and we all know what that's like. But I'm like I know this is going to be hard to hear, but I'm kind of secretly really excited for you. Like this sucks. This pain is bad. But like what's ahead, what's around the corner for you is going to be so much better and exciting and thrilling. And we've all had those breakups. Like my seven-year breakup –

I was so sad and like devastated, yes, and was grieving and all that because of seven years. But I was also like so excited for whatever the fuck's next because like it's so cool to like not know who you're going to meet or who you're going to bond with or connect with. Also like examining the black box on how the plane went down.

Ooh, tell us more. Well, what's your part in the exploration? Yeah. And what can you learn about yourself? What do you not want? Yeah. It's like we could think about things, but until we actually experience it in our body, we have all these revelations through the seven years or three years or three months. And then we're like, okay, now I want what I call a corrective love experience. Corrective love experience. And I think that's what we should shoot for.

Yeah. Convincing our body, not our mind that this is possible. Hmm. Yeah. And that's more valuable too. Cause I think people are often looking back, like what could I have done differently in that past relationship? And it's like, you just got to come to terms with that. That relationship is over. And it's like, what changes can you make moving forward in your next relationship? Have you ever had an explosive breakup?

Yes, I call it the Telemundo. Yes, tell us. I wrote notes because all my tattoos are words. See this? I might say something that doesn't make any sense. We're trying to read my chicken scratches. The explosive breakup is a one-two punch because if it's explosive, like if people are splashing tires and doing toxic shit outside your door...

It's very telling of the relationship, how it was. Yeah. Right? And so not only are you going through a broken heart, but you're also now worried about your safety. Yeah. Oh, shit, safety. And the drama in the front. Yeah. Yeah, that sucks because then you're grieving. But sometimes like –

That seven-year relationship I mentioned, like he didn't do anything wrong. It just ran its course and I'm like, oh, these certain qualities about you, I can't. I can't. I don't like. I can't take it. Was it mutual? No, it wasn't. And he did sue Corinna and I afterwards.

Sue? Don't you love when your friend breaks up and then you get sued? And you go, I didn't even like you the whole time. Wait, literally sued? Or are you guys using it as a… Literally sued. Literally sued for money, John. Six figures, baby. No way. Yeah. We fought it and we didn't pay the money. But I mean, it was a fucking lawsuit. A lawsuit. That he helped you guys build your careers? Well, that's what he was trying to say. Were you with your agent? What?

Yeah, well, there was a point where we got kicked off our podcast network early days of Guys We Fucked and then we were, he knew, he was a director and a film editor and stuff. He was really savvy. He was really good at his job. Like, he was really good at like carving together a story. So he edited the podcast for years and years and years and then, Oh, he was part of the

But then when the podcast first started, he very famously said to a friend of ours that is now only my friend and I want her in the breakup of like, Steven thought that like this idea was so dumb. Guys are fucked. And like he thought, and then when you started making it, he was like, I knew you would succeed. I'm like, fuck that dude. Fuck that. Like you guys,

A one-sided breakup can bring out the absolute worst in people. And it certainly – I mean I'm talking shit about him, but I have certainly acted like an absolute asshole, so immature, so angry. I mean it was my younger years. But still, it can bring out a nasty side of you that I was even shocked by.

I think it's helpful though. I actually, when, when, like when I break up with someone, I like when they do a big move because then that makes it so much easier for me to forget about them and move on when someone takes a breakup. Well, and I'm not sure cause it's never happened, but in my head when they take it well, like then I'm going to miss them more.

And you're like, shit, did I make the right move? Right, because then you're like, oh, wow, like I want to go this direction with the relationship and your reaction was really nice. Their reaction is telling and reinforces the expiration. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. What was the craziest you've ever been in a breakup? The craziest – so I did something that I wish I didn't and that was –

So I was with someone for three years. This was the squirter. Okay. Okay. I shouldn't say that. That's not, that's not cool. No, no. It's, this is a sex podcast. Sometimes we have guys in our phone is like big dick Harry or whatever. I'm just trying to be funny, everyone. So I don't want her to hear this and be like, that's all I was to you. I think if you're with someone for three years, I mean, she was amazing. You have to be more than that. She was amazing. Beautiful human artist. She was much more than, than that. But,

But also I also love that about her. Taught me a lot of things. Sexual awakening. It sounds like it opened your eyes. She was my vision quest. You guys remember Vision Quest? No. Yes. What's that? 80s movie. Yeah. Wrestler. And then the girl lives at his house and he's like – I know what it is. I don't remember if I've ever seen the whole thing, but I know your reference. Or Weird Science maybe or I don't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Either way, experiencing something sexual that's new for the first time with another person, it bonds you. Yes, yes. It totally bonds you.

You know, sometimes you're on a podcast and you just speak because you're in the moment and you forget you're being recorded. All the time. Yeah, that's like literally every day of my life. We talk way too much. It's happening now. Yeah.

Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it and then switching to Intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. That's why Finn, the world's leading AI customer service agent, is now available on every help desk. Finn can instantly resolve up to 80% of your tickets, which makes your customers happier and gets you off the customer service rep hiring treadmill. Finn by Intercom, the leading customer service AI agent, now available on every help desk.

Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months? Yeah, no. No.

Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient. Just like that. Yeah. No hassle. None. That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pick up fees may apply. Dear old work platform. It's not you. It's us. Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant IT bottlenecks. We've had enough. We need a platform that just gets us. And to be honest, we've met someone new.

They're called Monday.com, and it was love at first onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud nine. So no hard feelings, but we're moving on. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. But, oh, so three years, what I call the flat soda breakup, meaning it just kind of faded. We both were at a bar. We looked at each other. We're like.

Things have changed. Oh, at the same time? Same time. I mean, not like jinx, but... Right, right. How great would that have been? That's the ideal scenario. When they're both like, I think this is over. Yay, see ya! No, but if you did it at the same time, you realize, holy shit, we're so in sync. Maybe we should stay together. Exactly, exactly. But we had that moment, and then...

Within like a – we did no work. I should have said it's going to couples counseling. Let's put effort into it. Let's try to coal in the fire, schedule sex. I don't know. Yeah. With her, I didn't have schedules. Anyway. Why should you have done that though? Because I think we have a responsibility to leave knowing you did everything you could.

Unless it's toxic. Really? Even when you're just dating? You can't just agree that it's physical? No, it was three years. No, I know, but I'm like, that's... I'm saying not married. Yeah. To me, the difference between dating someone and being married to someone is what you just explained, that you have a commitment to do everything you can. But I don't think you have that commitment. I think maybe when she squirted, you were like, this is more serious than I thought. Yeah. Because that could have honestly made an impression on you. I think men...

kind of fall for like sometimes men fall for the women they sleep with more than the women fall for the men they sleep with you know what I'm saying like and I've kind of been clued onto that when we first started doing the podcast I'm like wait do men catch feelings like more than women I don't think that's true on average men say I love you after I believe it's like 69 days where it takes women like much more of course

Women, many more months than that. That makes sense. To actually feel it. That's really helpful. And I think because I'm a therapist, I'm very hard on myself on what you should do and what is responsible. So after we had that announcement within a week or two, I was on Craigslist. I found this really amazing place in Los Feliz. And I just moved out.

Yeah. I didn't really do anything. I just left. Oh, you didn't say, I'm leaving? No, of course. Okay, okay. Yeah, we did the hug. We cried and all that. But I didn't put any work back into the relationship. Yeah. And then at the same time, I met someone. It was way too fast. Crazy. I've never heard a straight man telling a story where he just meets a woman. And then she was like, oh, no, you're sad from that break?

Yeah. Oh, it's hilarious. Unprecedented. I met the person and she was a mutual friend. Oh, perfect. Oh, great. She was right there. What a surprise. We were on the beach in Malibu and I blamed it on the moon. But anyway.

We kissed. She was in the vicinity. You don't say. Oh, no. And so that happened. And then it was like, oh, you fucking cheated on me. And then all this. Oh, she thought. Well. I mean, it was so fast. It wasn't cheating, but it was her friend. No, it was a mutual friend. She was more my friend than hers. But yes, mutual. But still, she would probably be like, the whole time were you like this? Yes. And I get that because it's like, dude, a week out. It wasn't.

cheating but it was so fast it felt like it if men move on so quickly it is very hurtful even if you wanted the relationship to end man that's not my style that was the first time I did that and then felt shitty about it and so here was my punishment this is how the universe works so I was with this person I got a lot of approval it was also like

I felt validated. I felt like the cool girl liked me. I felt like there's something I was getting from this new person that was deeper than just... Okay. She was there. Yeah, I felt picked. Okay. Got it. So that was happening. He's hitting two guys we fuck tropes here in the vicinity and how she makes me feel. Yeah, yeah. So it was in that. And then also the person that the relationship I ended with, she was going through a...

She had a lot of trauma in her life. Was she realizing it for the first time? No, it activated so much that she wasn't like... From what I was hearing from friends... Oh, this is your ex? Yeah, John. She's not doing well. You better go see her. And then my therapist was like...

just draw boundaries. So I was caught in between this and this and then she was saying, you're done with her. Don't, that's not, are you in this? And I was just being pulled left and right and I had a fucking panic attack. It was the first time in my life I had a panic attack. Oh wow, first time. He hurt two women and then he had the panic attack. That's what it took. It took two women. Guys, thank you for having me. My book is called Breakup on Purpose. I'll be in.

This is good. Listen, male therapists are still men. Well, men have a hard time dealing with women's feelings. I just come here to promote my book. I know. Well, you're in the hot seat. Sorry. No, but you're hitting on a thing that men do. It's society, man. It's society.

it's not just you. It's not just you. It's not your fault. And you've evolved. No, but I'm saying that all that is bad. I shouldn't have done it. I feel shitty. I'm not saying that that happened and I don't give a fuck. Yeah, of course you give a fuck. That's something I feel really bad for. I wish I would have handled that whole thing differently. Yeah, yeah. Was the Moving On Fast also like a coping mechanism?

for you though? That's why maybe. That's why we do it. I just threw you a rope. I mean the second I'm like oh we're breaking up I'm willing a crush on whoever's near me. I mean I am like. Because it helps. It helps tremendously. It helps but it

helps until it doesn't because it helps it helps for a little bit and then but it can't be a distraction eventually you still have to process the feelings from the breakup yes you know so it'll catch up with you eventually yeah like that seven-year relationship when i ended it i was i was super sad at first but then i was fucking all these people and i'm like this is the best time of my entire life how much time went by before you started to cry no fuck other people oh immediately

No, no. I start fucking other people immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god, okay. And I was so excited to fuck other people. It would have been so long. There was people that I've been eyeing for years. The best sex of my life is with the person that you've had a crush on and have wondered about. And they're like, I'm single too and I totally think you're hot. Or you're very disappointed. Or you're like, eh, you don't know. Yeah, that happened to me once, but I kind of had an inkling like, this isn't going to be good. But there was two people in particular that I had –

wildest sex of my life with right after that breakup but then I processed how sad it was and not good what makes it wild the feeling that this person gives you like the amount of real estate they take up in your mind what it does to your body thinking about them touching you the foreplay the mental there's a feeling I get techniques or mops or wiping the floor we're talking about yeah

No, just like the feeling like, oh, this is sexy. Like you're not desperate. You're not pouty. You're not like all these things. Like you are a man to me. Like fucking take me. That kind of thing. Anticipation. Totally. And like, yeah, and they still have good press because you don't know them that well. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, but that's where I dropped the ball and that's one thing that I wish I would have handled differently for sure. Yeah. Is she okay, your ex? Did you end up falling out with her? We don't talk to each other. I'm sure she hates me. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's another thing about the whole breakup thing is the breakup residue.

Sometimes they demonize you because it's for their healing. Yeah, I don't – I'm not friends with – I wish I was. I'm not friends with any of my exes. Are you guys friends with your exes? No, I've never talked to any of – like there's one that's – the one guy that's super sweet but like when I'm done with somebody, I'm done forever. Well, I don't have to be like in their life but I would love – I don't even want to text with them. I would love to sit down with every single one and just kind of make amends. I would love to do that. Yeah.

Well, this is not going to happen. No, but that's why we did this podcast. Seriously, because – That's the origin story of the show. Some of the guys that we interviewed in the early years of like guys I fucked like Nico. Oh, they came on the podcast? Yeah. We literally interviewed guys we fucked. I mean this is just so far out that we run out of guys. We would have – yeah. Can we send an invitation to my ex-wife, the squirter?

if you want to come on and we can we can mediate for sure that'd be interesting yeah that would be actually really it's always so interesting too because they're so wrapped up in their reality of what's happening you're so wrapped up in yours but their reactions affect you and vice versa and it's just like i think a lot of hurt can happen especially post breakup when it's heated or it's one-sided or somebody does something like oh you're fucking my friend or whatever that you could just build this narrative to like help you feel better but it's really more damaging in the

the long run in a way. Yes. And you've got to respect boundaries. Yeah. I've learned for sure. Yeah. And also too, like being comfortable with the truth. Like, I don't know, like you were having, you were, you were end up hooking up with somebody who was a mutual friend that was more your friend, but like, okay. Like, like just cause you don't like that doesn't mean it's bad. I mean, I don't know. There's a lot of layers to that. Yes. She was peripherally the, um,

hot girl in kind of the yoga wellness world. No, I actually had no intentions and she was just a friend. But I think underneath what was happening was... A boner.

Or the freshman who had a shot at the cheerleader. Yeah. I've dated a couple guys. She was like healing something. Yeah, she was healing an insecurity wound in me. Yeah, I get that. Straight women don't usually date a guy that's like a trophy. But I've done it.

Every once in a while I'll do it and it does feel good. But what would be a trophy to straight women? I don't know. Like somebody that – like honestly my boyfriend now, like he was always a trophy to me when I was – and that's why probably the beginning of our dynamic was a little toxic because I treated him as this trophy. And that's not good. That's not –

But trophy based on success and career? He's handsome. He's very charismatic. He's a singer for a living. He's super charming. He's beloved by his community. When I think trophy for a straight woman, I only think looks. But yeah, I guess it could be career too. Like a famous person or whatever. And it does feel good to date a trophy. So I'm like, I totally get why guys want – like I see the smile in a male comedian's eyes as he brings along this chick that's

way out of his league, but that's like adoring him. I'm like, I'm like, I get that. Like, good for you. Yeah. You know? So there's, there's some value in that. Vanessa is my trophy. You know what? She's not my trophy. She's a badass. She's not my trophy. She's my, um,

She's like a vase on my mantelpiece. That's very precious. As opposed to like a trophy. Right. That, um, like it's something you, a piece, a piece of memorabilia, a collectible that you actually care about. Not just something, a trophy to me, the difference between a trophy and like a vase is like a trophy is for other people more than it is for you. Totally. Whereas the vase is for you. Yeah.

Yeah, that's something you cherish and you appreciate. Also too, like I think the real trust fall in a relationship is like when you see somebody go through life after you've been with them for a while and how they handle things. Like that's why I'm so drawn to your wife because I'm like – how you talk about certain situations, like you just come at it with this –

calmness that's so cool and like feels like really human and like you're not afraid of like talking about certain things I don't know she has a very unique energy to her that is really appealing thank you for saying that yeah she's amazing I agree I think mindfulness yoga meditate Buddhism yeah depth psychology all of that her level of consciousness is very high

Yeah, I just CrossFit and ride a motorcycle. Which also like – Barely passed the test. Yeah, yeah. Which is also like therapeutic. I mean I don't know. I went to the ITT Tech of therapy schools. She went to Pacifica, which is like the fancy. Is that a good one? It's depth psychology, uni, and like it's a lot of – The creme de la creme. Yeah, I went – I was in Encino. Okay. I mean – Hey, I feel really bad about the squirting comment. I got to say. Oh, really? Yes. And let me just say –

I think it's disrespectful. So yeah, I just want to apologize. Yeah. Because I'm thinking about it and – because as we're talking, I'm thinking about her and her feelings and that she was more than that. There's a lot of depth to your relationship. And I said that to be funny and also to match you guys where you're at and the show and the theme and I just – I don't want to – Comedy that does in fact take a professional even though people don't think that it does. Yeah.

Honestly, this is more on Brandon with our theme of like kind of like owning like, oh, I didn't feel right about that. I don't feel right about it. Yeah. And I don't want to keep it inside. And also if she was on a podcast and talk about me and she said something very personal about me. Yeah, yeah. Like if she called me a two-pump chump or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah. And that was the identity she gave me. But it was funny in the moment for that. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd be like, that's... Also, too, like, I've had people talk bad about me on podcasts before, and I'm like, well... And it's up to me to go use my discernment. Was I behaving poorly? Like, did I deserve that? Well, that's a humble little pill you gotta swallow, Christina. Or are they just hurt? Are they... But yeah, I totally get it. That's not cool, yeah. I've said things on my show about men I've slept with or have dated or have been madly in love with that were absolutely disrespectful just because I was... One, maybe I was hurt, but two, it was probably just like, yeah, just trying to...

Be punchy with what you say. I retract nothing I've said about any of the men. Hell yeah. You know, some other people perhaps know what I've dated. In fact, I was too nice about some of them. Yeah. Have you had – what's been like your favorite breakup that you've had? Okay, so the most painful was the divorce. Yeah. But also the most – Because it was a divorce or because of the high level of it? She was the trophy. Yeah.

Oh, the divorce? Not the vase, but the trophy. Yeah. Interesting. Was she a hottie? Stunning model actress. Yeah. I was invisible. I was only known as her husband. Oh, I kind of, you know, put on a pedestal. Yeah. Like who needs friends? We have each other. Oh, been there. All I cared about was her. Lost myself.

And then you're resentful towards her, but then it's you doing it. It's so confusing, man. Yeah. We went to Comic-Con once, and it was like a two-hour ride, and the limousine driver was like, oh, I thought you were her agent. Jesus Christ. That's rude. That's fucking so rude. I'm her agent, not her agent. Oh, she was white. Okay. He just assumed that, yeah, she was white. Oh, okay. And he assumed because I think, partly because I'm Asian, but also he probably assumed, oh, there would be...

There would be no way that he could get hurt kind of thing. Right. Or maybe that's my insecurity. Or maybe he was reading your energy and it was not romantic. It was professional. I don't know. I felt that. What were you dressed up as?

Well, I had a suit and tie and had contracts. No. Yeah, no. We were making love in the backseat, which would make sense in Hollywood. That would be her agent. Oh, yeah. That's true. That's true. No, we weren't. No, we're just passengers. Just being regular. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's probably me projecting my 80s.

Yeah, if somebody hits on a truth that you're nervous about or you wonder if it's true, that's always going to hit super hard. But if you weren't even insecure about that to begin with, it's going to roll over your shoulder. That's how you – that's how I can always tell how I feel about things. Also, if he was really racist, would he announce that? He would have just kept it to himself. Some racists do. Accidentally.

They accidentally are not. I think that's also like it's one of those racist tropes that he puts you in a position of power so he doesn't interpret it as racist. He's like, oh, he's Asian. He's smart. He has a good job kind of a thing. That can't be racist. Like positive racism. Oh, right. An agent is supposed to like, oh, the mechanic. An assistant or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that was the big one. And because I had no life because my life was her.

And once we broke up, I had nothing. I had no friends, no money. I had nothing. That's the thing when you make the relationship your center of your world. You want it to work out in this way that you're hugging the puppy too tight and it's going to suffocate. Yes. Did she – did your partner – did that partner particularly like agree that the relationship should end or was she not on the same page? No, she left. Oh, she left. She wanted a separate – she was on a movie set.

And via Skype, Skype had just come out. And so I remember, I remember fascinated by technology. Oh my God, you're moving on the computer. Yeah. And she said, you know, let's, let's have a separation. She just said that. Just a separation. And that surprised you? No, I thought to myself, what an opportunity for me to be a man for the first time in my life and give her what she wants without question.

okay, I'm going to be a man. What do you need? Space? Great. And she's like, I'm going to be home next week. It's going to be really activating for me. Can you not be in the house? Can you just...

like find a place again. And I should have been suspicious because I, I didn't think where it was going. Right. Right. But also I applaud you on your tactic. Cause a lot of times when a woman says she needs space and a guy's like, okay, it's kind of, I mean, I've been on the, I've been on your ex wife's end. I'm like, wait, you're just going to give it to me. Wait, hold on. No, come here. Like, so sometimes that does to what you thought it was going to do. That did not happen. Okay. And then, so I got a, I got a place and, uh,

Then she said, hey, let's just get a divorce. We'll try it again, but just to clean everything up. Oh, shit. Just to clean everything up? Like to start brand new. I mean, I get it. That's expensive control. Oh, maybe that's why people get remarried to the same person again.

Because they feel like it's a restart. Those people are just – I think those people are fucking wild. Let's get a divorce so we can get married again. That's like Liz Taylor behavior. But then like the smartest person on relationships, Esther Perel, has been married multiple times to the same person, which I think is so interesting because she – Yeah, that also makes me question everything that she's ever said. I know, but like she – That's wild. I listen to her podcast every week and there's very few that I listen to every week. And I'm like, she did it again. She's so –

Yeah, she learned from fucking up 80,000 times. I'll teach you stuff. I think so. So you thought, okay, this is being presented to me as like a fresh start. And then so we got the divorce. And then it was – that was it. And then you stayed divorced. Then we stayed divorced. And you're like, what the fuck? It's like, oh my god, I got tricked. I should have known better. I mean obviously – but I –

But like, I mean, did you feel it's not, it doesn't sound, if she's a trophy, it doesn't seem like this is like your right match. Like you felt like deeply understood by her or something. But like, I think there's a control issue with the trophy thing of like, no, but I want it. That like is tough. You know, there's something called secondary loss, which is a huge thing with breakups where it's not even about,

Just the relationship but also what could have been. Yeah, and what the relationship meant to you in terms of society. What could you have built, the baby names, the picket fence. And so with her, she was my wife. I'm going to be with her for the rest of my life. And I've already started to fantasize about this future, two kids in Hollywood. And she would do this and I would write screenplays and all this kind of stuff. And so when the divorce happened, I not only lost a marriage, I lost everything.

All of it. And who you were. And the daughter I was going to put in my vintage truck and eat pancakes with on Sunday. Yeah, yeah. Totally, totally, totally.

And how long – how did you – what was the grief like for that? Oh, fucking horrible. What did you do? Like I like when people talk – like when I was grieving, I mean I grieve relationships pretty hard but I mainly grieve like the loss of my parent relationships like really bad. Just sloppy. Just fucking drooling. Just – you look like a barnyard animal. Crying so hard you can't breathe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of George Michael songs. Oh, yeah. I love George Michael. And not knowing what to do and then I was like –

I didn't have a job. I wasn't a therapist yet. Oh, fuck. Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to buy a motorcycle. I've never bought a motorcycle before. I have this time before someone says no again. So I went and bought a little motorcycle. That's the spirit. And then I was eating frozen yogurt, feeling sorry for myself. And right next door, there was this weird kind of like gym. Across it was brand new. Okay. Like monkey bars and shit. Yeah. And I was like, I strolled in there and then I got into that community. And that was kind of the vine that pulled me out of the quicksand. So I had somewhere to go. Nice.

And I was just riding my motorcycle all over LA and then I slowly started making friends. A new hobby and a new community. I mean, I think that's great. And I think that's also something that women do often a lot better than men. So it's nice to hear a story about a man like kind of what, even though it seemed, you know, perhaps accidental, you still found solace in community. Well, yeah. And you gravitated towards things that felt better for you. Out of my head, out of my house was the prescription. Yeah. I love that. That's so great. Cause you get to, you do get tired of like,

you get tired of feeling bad for yourself. You get tired of being like, you're like tired of crying and just sitting there. You're like, yeah, exactly. You're like, what the fuck am I doing? Which is great. That's a great turning point. When you're sick of yourself, you're like, all right, I'm, I will switch today. Like, it's kind of seamless. A lot of men don't pull out of that. A lot of men, um, tell me about it. They go dark. Yeah. But then sometimes they go, they go watch kill Tony on YouTube. Yeah.

Sometimes the women and I have certainly been guilty of being this type of woman. So I shit on you, but I'm also shitting on myself. It's like they want to rescue the sad guy that's reeling from a breakup. Oh, God. Yeah, that's that's something that I got over after my my 20s. And I wasn't like the sad. I never liked the sad guy who just got out of a relationship because I don't want to hear about anybody else, which is like a sad guy in general. Yeah. Like this obsession with like the sad guy, the emo boy. It's like the fix that on your own time.

I don't like a sad boy anymore. It's a pussy dryer. I'm done. I'm over it. But before, it was because it gave you worth or you saved him? No, it's because I think we misconstrue a sad boy with being an emotionally intelligent boy. Totally. When you're in your 20s, it's easy to complain. Like the musician that got the guitar. Being emotional and being emotionally intelligent are two very different things. And a big part of emotional intelligence is knowing when it is socially appropriate to show certain emotions. Yes, yes.

And that was something I learned the hard way. Yes. Emotional can be what we were talking about before, pouty. Yeah. Oh, 100%. It can be a man-child. Yep. Emotional intelligence is actually self-soothing. Yeah. Yeah, and refraining. Like there's this quote from a book. I forget what book it was, but it's like – I think it was Bravery. Being brave is – a lot of it is refraining.

from allowing yourself to be emotional or refraining from like being all over the place. Responding instead of reacting I think is a great divide. And also like when you're an adult, I do feel like you should be able to like, not that you don't cry or you don't have a breakdown, but like you should kind of be able to press pause on it and be like, I'm going to have a breakdown about this, but I'm going to have it in three hours when I'm home from work.

Yeah. Like that to me is being an adult who like has emotional intelligence. It's not like I don't react to things. But like there is like a time and a place and it's not any time and any place. It requires reps. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You have to practice. Yeah. And not emotionally just bleed over everybody. Yes. And that's trial and error, baby. Yeah. Trial and error. Yeah. So do you have like breakup advice that you always give to everyone? Is there like –

Or are you always giving these kind of eight different prescriptions depending on the type of breakup? Or is there something that you think is valuable for anyone going through a breakup? Yeah, so broad strokes. One, I think it's okay to numb, quote-unquote, consciously.

Okay. Ooh, I like that. What does that look like? That looks like allowing – okay, so one donut can be self-care. Yeah. A dozen donuts is self-hate. Yeah, totally. So if you need a few weeks to lock the door, send people the voicemail and cry and eat and have the red Cheeto stained fingers, that's okay. I think that's something working through you.

That can be solitude. Yeah. Now if that turns into three months, now you're – Yeah, and you're fucking up your commitments. And also I think you do have – and I've done this not in the right way. You have a responsibility to tell people where you're at mentally. Yeah, because they're worried about you. Yeah, but also too like, hey, I'm not able to be present for this thing. I'm going to show up and I'm going to try my best, but like,

I'm dying inside so I just want to let you know now and you know like that's always nice when people give you a heads up and then the my mantra is out of my house out of my head so every day I would be like I'm going to say no to nothing

I'm an introvert. I just fucking went. And a lot of those times that you go are like they turn into the Harold and Kumar adventure. Yeah, totally. A walk, man. A walk can fix stuff. A walk. Well, in New York, maybe not in L.A. You get shot in L.A. I guess so. Shot? Just people don't walk in L.A. Oh, really? I like walking in L.A. because no one else is walking in L.A. No one else is walking. Yeah, it's nice.

Hi, this is Freddie Wong from Dungeons and Daddies, and this episode is sponsored by Rocket Money. Houston. Houston, we have a problem, and that's too many subscriptions that I don't know about because I like to put my credit card number into sites. Just for the sheer thrill of it. That's the fundamental problem of the internet and money and Rocket Money is...

We'll be right back.

Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash cancel subs. That's rocketmoney.com slash cancel subs, not submarines.

Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market, the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1,000 plus ingredients so you can trust that you'll only find the best high quality organic and sustainable brands all free of the junk. With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping, you get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on.

Start shopping at thrivemarket.com slash podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift. So out of your house, out of your head, have smart feet. So just get to the thing. Oh, totally. Just have smart feet. Just go. And so I did that to class. I did that to have coffee with friends. Yeah. And I just did. And then once you get there, that structure –

makes it safe. It's a container that you pour yourself into and it carries you. What do you, now we've all heard, we've gotten, Corinne and I have gotten emails about this type of friend that like has gone through a breakup and it could be both men and women and they just won't shut the fuck up about it frankly. But they're

Like if you take a step back, you're like, well, you're still like – you're just as scarred as you were five months ago. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, like what is that – like I know there's not a one-size-fits-all. This is what's happening with you. But like if you're the friend, how do you gently handle that without making it worse for them? Yeah, I would say I want to be there for you. What do you need from me? But I don't think I have the tools.

You should talk to a therapist about this. They could help you better. So I present it in a way where it's like you need someone better than me. Not I'm sick of hearing this shit. The thing is though – Some people want to dump them. It's very hard and it shouldn't be – there shouldn't be a stigma on it. But it's very hard to say you need therapy without it coming across as an insult. Yes. Well, maybe you need therapy. No, I know. But like –

This would be an excellent issue for therapists. Anytime there's really... I've found no way to give or receive that that doesn't feel offensive. Yeah. And it's like...

yeah so because we talk about it so much that it's so normal yeah I mean yeah going to therapy I mean it's a little less now than maybe like 10 years ago you know when someone said it to me but you know and also it wasn't the solution at the time because I had those therapy tools that I would have gotten from the therapist are tools I had I mean I ultimately we started guys we fucked was what healed it you know for me it was a

creative outlet but I don't have an answer so it's a question that I don't have an answer for but yeah I mean I think they're like how do you say like you know I want you to get help from a professional without it seeming like you know saying like you're broken fix this because that's how it comes across to most people especially when they're in this vulnerable place I think you have to say how can I help you and then you have to let them know what you can do and what you can't so if they're like can you come over my house every day and let me vent on you you're like

No, of course not. But how can I help you? How can I support you? Yeah. Is probably the best way where they feel loved. Yeah. And then it's like, maybe you should talk to someone if you could slip it in. I think also like maybe like if someone's really broken and having trouble doing easy things, like I wouldn't recommend this for like women doing this for men because I think we do too much of this. But like if it's a

friend a friend especially a female friend like helping them find a therapist yeah that's like an active thing that you can do because sometimes that just that that feels so heavy an easy way in is hey i know this person yeah yeah amazing so like that's very different than go see a therapist for sure and i think and i think that's good yeah and it's also easier it's easier to prescribe therapy when you yourself have gone through it it's like when people who haven't been to therapy themselves are telling you to go to therapy that's like a little crazy yeah

There's also this thing. Breakups are so interesting to me because it's the most intense pain and feelings, but then it's the least permanent. When somebody dies, that's permanent. When somebody like, like a friend breakup is just gut wrenching. And that's that, that, that, that hits for a while. But like this breakup pain, like can be, you know, very, it's just crazy how you move on and you like the, you were, you were like, I don't even remember what it was like to be hurt by it. It's because love is so potent. Yeah.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It totally is. It's so explosive. It's life or death. It does feel very life or death. But there's always interesting, like I always look back on my relationships of like the times that I thought, should I break up with this person? That like we're totally literally just fleeting, like didn't have anything and we would break up way later down the road and that was like a fleeting thing. But like, yeah, I think sometimes people are like,

Sometimes we've gotten emails of like should I break up with them? Like that feeling crossed my mind. So does that mean I should give it merit? And it's like your brain is just – there's a typewriter in your head that doesn't shut the fuck up. You could either decide to cling to those thoughts or not, but those thoughts aren't you. I think about breaking up with people like eight times a day. Yeah, I don't think about it eight times a day, but I do think about like – I don't know. And maybe it's a protective wall of like, well, if we broke up, I would be OK. Yeah.

And you try to see how I would feel and step into that. But that doesn't necessarily mean you should break up. When do you know if you should break up? Well, I was going to say what you guys were talking about is just being human. We think about everything that maybe we shouldn't think about or should I be with this person? Sure. Yeah. And men I think too we've talked about on the show. Men are always like, can I get something? Is there something better out there? Because I think men are more attracted to the trophy idea than women just because –

Women are more trophies than men in a lot of scenarios. So they get to feel that more often. Unless you're a firefighter in New York City. That's true. I don't know, though. I went to a firefighter single and they are – All my female friends are like firefighter obsessed. Not police but firefighter. You're talking to someone who was firefighter. I was so – going past a firehouse, my body would just be like, oh, god. Like really. It was like a guy with tits. Oh, wait a minute.

No, we went in the fire. I went once with Corinne and they allowed us on the truck and I was like, oh, this is so hot. Yeah, they let us play on the truck. I went to a singles event though and yeah, one of the guys, the one hot firefighter there, I went up to him and I was like, hey, what's your name? He's like, I ordered a vodka soda and this bartender's fucking retarded. She gave me tequila soda. I'm like, nope, we can't have a conversation, man. And we're good. I want to have deep combos. Well, the psychology band firefighter, I mean, yes, I get it. They're attractive. A lot of them are, but, but,

It's that they – They're brave. Yes. As opposed to, say, police officers where then you think – because there's brave police officers. Sure. You think like they're arrogant. They're controlling. Sure. Police officers' branding has been fucked by the awful police officers. Firefighters, their shit is like unstained. Yeah. It's like – Yeah, until you go to a firefighter's singles mixer and you're like, oh, you guys also suck. But you just don't have a job where you have a gun. Yeah.

They're fighting fire. I know. Not people. So it's like brave. That's kind of like cool. Like rescuing people. Like that's pretty sick. Like supernatural. Yeah. Their trucks are always sparkling. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, how do you know when it's time to break up? When it's time to break up? I think there's no blanket answer. I think it depends on the individual. If you want something from me, it would be when you start breaking up with yourself. Ooh, love that, John. When you're in something that doesn't feel honest and you're like –

I'm not going to leave the relationships. I don't want, I'm not going to leave this relationship, but now you're leaving self abandoning self. Yeah. That's, and that's such a lonely, depressing feeling. Yeah. Or like being someone you're not like, just to be in this relationship. What if the thing that you don't like to do is hanging out with the person that you're dating? That you should break up for sure. 100%. But what if like, so when you morph into, and I've been this person that I morph into somebody else in the relationship, but the guy didn't ask that of me.

He happens to enjoy it because I'm like, let's do everything you want to do. He's not going to go, wait a second, let's hold the phone. Are we doing things that you want to do? Like he's not, a guy's not going to do that. I actually do do that though. I have stopped relationships where people, but I have the masculine energy most times where people have, I can tell they're just doing everything I want to do and it feels

nice until it doesn't and then it feels boring and then I literally will stop and go we're not leaving this house until you tell me what the number one thing you want to do today is and I have gotten answers okay that's good because I think it's important before the relationship gets too far to

uh skewed in one direction that you resolve that yes well my question was to you john is like when you notice oh i'm morphing myself into this other person in this relationship but you're doing it to yourself they're not really asking that of you can you change can you go back from that like can you change course and yeah of course it's hard it's really hard yeah hard because that dynamic is so strong and sticky yeah it's like when you go home for thanksgiving and you could be like

Fucking successful as fuck. You go home. You feel like a piece of shit. You're a 15-year-old trying to climb out your window. Totally. You're hiding your weed smoke and you're like, I wasn't smoking. Right. It's the dynamic of that relationship that is so strong. Yeah. And I think in a romantic relationship, it can be very strong. So just to even have distance pull away and look at that.

is like, it's hard. Yeah. Cause like that whole, there's this thing when you go to heal yourself and like work on trauma, if you have it, um, a lot of times, a lot of people in your life will fall off. They won't like the new you, they won't like the healed you. And I think that we've gotten emails, some pretty,

really poignant, like kind of gut-wrenching emails of like, you know, the woman, most time it's the woman decide to work on herself within the couple, but we kind of individually work on herself and she's becoming like more assertive and more like more her, just more herself. And it's beautiful. And it's this beautiful unfolding. And the guy doesn't like her for that. Well, because it's like, that's not what I signed up for. Right. Right. Which he's not wrong. He's not wrong, but I'm like, what a heartbreaking thing, man. You don't like me being,

me? Sometimes I think it's putting stress on the other person though because they're like now she's becoming her best self now that's stress that I have to become my best self and I don't want to do that. See that like the fact that that would ever be stressful on somebody I'm like what? If you're not fully invested in the relationship I can understand like not wanting to have to bring 100%.

That's a very good point. I get it. But then the road forks where it's like, oh, she's evolving, growing, wants to be better. I either have to match or she's going to outgrow me. Right. Totally. And a lot of people bounce. Yeah. My ex of seven years, I remember he said to me like very early on, you're just going to get famous and leave me. And I was like, I was 24. Mothman prophecies. I know. Honestly, I was like,

what? No, I'm not like, Oh my God. And they always know exactly what fucking happened. The older guys at 24, you're like, yeah, that's probably what's going to happen. I wish I had that inside. Are you serious? Um, but yeah, it's interesting. Like men, but men maybe don't have as much, um, social encouragement to work on themselves. That's why we love talking to men like you that are like, no, like if you say something that you're like, fuck, I shouldn't have said that. Like say, then talk about that or like dive into your inner world. Um,

I find that men only have kind of locker rooms. I mean, we're just talking about firefighters. That's a giant locker room. Totally. Women go to brunches and fucking talk about everything. There's something very... Look, this podcast is therapeutic. Totally. Right? It started from heartbreak and you guys actually having honest conversations. What spaces in this world... I mean, now there are more for men, but men either what? Work? Yeah. And they're posturing? Or locker rooms where it's all about like dick jokes and very competitive? Yeah. I don't know.

That sucks, man. I don't know where else men would actually have these kind of spaces. They don't have outlets, but I think men also don't have incentive because women accept garbage men all the time. Totally. Less now. Less, but it still happens. You would think. But then I look at the email box and I go, was anyone even fucking listening to this podcast? I'll throw the mic. Just these unimpressive men. Most of my female clients, single, um,

Before this book, I wrote a book called Seem On Purpose. And the reason I wrote that book was because they were done with swipe culture. They were done with relationships being the only –

I'd rather have – I'd rather be single than being something that's not fulfilling. Oh, of course. No, but that was the case for our parents. And I know it wasn't – it's still the case for a lot of people. I feel so bad for people that they're – it's like they're in a jail sentence. They're doing it to themselves. The loneliest feeling is being with somebody and feeling lonely while you're with them is like –

Yes, but there's some people that would rather take that than being single. Yeah, because they haven't been shown how beautiful it is to have fun with yourself. And there's also such a stigma from society still. I mean especially – for men too I think at a certain age, like I still hear people saying things like if you're not – if you haven't been married once by 40, even as a man, like there's something wrong with you. And I go, that's crazy.

That's a crazy thing to say. Yeah. How did you feel after your divorce? Like was there like a culture – like a society stain on you? Like – or were you like, oh, it happened? Divorced at 35. Salvage now stamped on my forehead. Who's going to want me? OK. Yeah.

I have to start over. Yeah. But on top of that, I just had starting over. So like career wise, what am I going to do? Yeah. Um, I think that's why I went by more cycles. I just go buy a toy. I don't know. Well, if you're going to start over, that's going to be exhausting. You're going to have fun. Like, and I think too, that's why people also stay in relationships. Like the idea of starting over just sounds like,

The idea of just swiping or going on a first date with someone and going, oh, you fucking suck. Like that is – There was almost a giving up. There was almost a surrendering to old blueprints and where you should be – because I was like I'm 35. I don't have the matching BMWs or a kid. I'm not married. I'm now divorced. I'm starting over. Well, I'm going to give away that blueprint. I'm going to rip it down. I'm just going to now –

It's a female equivalent of like, I'm going to just chop my hair off and dye purple or whatever the fuck. Like I just need something. Or not have a kid or not get married. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was your ex-wife financially supporting you as well? Yes. She was a breadwinner. Okay. So there was also that. Yeah. Cause I was thinking that. Did you not have a job?

I was trying. Oh, okay. I was trying to be a screenwriter in Hollywood. Oh, okay. So you were pursuing something though. I sold two things and they didn't work out. You were writing though. Writing is a fucking lot of work. I went to film school. I was trying to do it for free. Ten hours a day at Starbucks writing. Like I was trying to do it. Yeah, so that's not nothing. No, I was hustling. Yeah, yeah. When we were divorcing, she had – as we were divorcing, she booked a series regular, a big TV show. Oh, wow. Which potentially could have made her financially set for life. Wow. And I remember this because I said –

This is going to be the defining moment for me where I leave. I take nothing.

I just took my pillow. Yeah. We were technically still married. I could have said that, but I said we did this together. Yeah. You happened to, you would have been technically entitled to half of her stuff. For sure. For sure. That's nice that you didn't do that. Cause I like, that's gotta feel so fucking gross to take money. That's not yours that you didn't earn. Well, she, unless you were raising, she was like, this is not your money. Right. I did not fight it. I said, I said, whether I agree with you or not, I'm going to make a decision for me. Yeah. Cause I'm going to look back one day.

And say. How did I behave here? I like that I did that. Yeah. I'm still waiting for that date to come, by the way.

Well, but you don't feel that? No, I do. I would feel really proud of myself. No, no, I'm really proud of myself for that moment. It's hard to not take the bait of anger even if it's just like, hey, I know this isn't right, but I just want to say fuck you to you for whatever reason. That would have been me taking again. That would have been me being childish. That would have been me. That would have been nipple, not mouth. Yeah. And I was like, I can't. The petty and noble move is taking the money and then donating it all to charity. That's the move. Well, I wasn't thinking like that.

That's how you hurt them but you also don't feel dirty with their dirty money. I wouldn't have had the discipline to do that. No, I mean it's a crazy hard. I haven't done it. I'm just pitching an idea. If there's anybody that could do it out of the three of us, it's you. I'm pitching it from a creative perspective. Yes, from an idea. Because I'm sitting here thinking it's like, yeah, you're right. Like,

taking people's money from them is really hurtful. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But it doesn't feel good. I mean, even paying my taxes doesn't feel good. It feels terrible. It feels absolutely awful. My business end of year is October 31st, and it is haunting, as the date would suggest. It's bad. You said something that I wanted to insert before I forget. Yeah. You said creative expression during a breakup. So Tumblr was that for me.

me. And so this was it for you guys. Dude, if it wasn't for Tumblr saved my life. Yeah. Oh my God. Creative expression. It's so valuable. Uh, fitness and then something for you, like motorcycle riding for me. So those three things is a great one that changed being in your body. It takes you out of your head. Yeah.

And when you're doing something like lifting weights or running, anything that requires balance, a motorcycle requires a lot of your balance. Like you have to use your balancing skills. Well, also it's a meditation machine. It actually charms the nervous system. People don't know this. When you're on a motorcycle, you're actually – so Vanessa says you're the most calm and sexy and grounded. I feel you. Yeah. And I'm like waiting for her to stay in the bedroom and she always says – When you're on your motorcycle. When you're on your bike.

That makes sense. I mean, driving is very therapeutic and you kind of get in the zone. But I mean, imagine like like I always love a stick shift car because you feel like you're you're one with the car. That's that's a motorcycle's got to be that time. Oh, my God. Right. You're naked. Yeah. You could die. It's why I've always been like I'm a piano player, but I always have thought how cool would it be to play the guitar because you're holding the entire instrument in your hand. So it's kind of a part of you that. Yeah, that's really cool. But you gravitated towards something that was really healthy for you, which I didn't know at the time.

These are all things I stumbled on, but they're actually valid tools. Yeah, and workout is great because, yes, it's like all the lovely reasons that you said. But also, yeah, you get hot and post pictures on Instagram and make everyone else feel stupid. It's great being hotter than you were in the relationship that you just left. That's 100%. It's really the only way to go. Yeah, if I could bottle that up, we'd be billionaires. Jesus Christ. It's a nice dangling carrot. It's great. Yeah. What are things not to do in a breakup? Yeah.

That? Everything you just said? Yeah. Buy a motorcycle, do CrossFit. Get hotter, walk by his work. Play back the highlight reel instead of the documentary. Oh, yeah. Wait, there's a word for this. I read it like years ago and I can never recall it. But it's basically like, yeah, for when you only remember the good parts. And it's also like...

I don't know if it's like a statistic, but yeah, like that's just like naturally what happens. You just naturally remember the good times and not the bad. Is that your body? Like, is that your brain like survival mode? Like, what is that? That you're only remembering the good part? Yeah. I mean, I think there's a part of us that minimize the bad. Yeah. And amplify the good. Yeah. So here's the thing. When we play back the good parts, we're not playing them back from who we are now and what we've learned. We're playing them back from that moment. So like when you go back to school, everything looks bigger. Yeah.

Like when you kiss the boy, you're like those chairs, holy shit. Right, right, right, right, right. Because you're imagining the school when you were five in your head. And the gravity of what it meant to you at that time. A five-year-old sees the world as a much bigger place than a 35-year-old. So go back to where you kissed. Go back to where you, you know, whatever was put in the corner. It's like tiny. Yeah. So when you're playing back the highlight reel, you're –

Yeah.

it. Yeah. You don't see no I 100% I one of the most soothing things for me in a relationship is when I remind myself that I miss a person who doesn't exist anymore. So it's I don't it's not that I don't have this person. This person doesn't exist on the planet anymore because so often that's why I broke up with the

person because the person I met ultimately became someone else in the relationship, right? A person that I don't like the way I like that other person, that original person. So I go, I'm missing someone who doesn't exist. And that's much easier to deal with than missing someone who does exist. And so a lot of my clients will spend days playing back the highlight reel and then they'll trick themselves into thinking, fuck, what?

This was so good. And then they don't play back. I miss you. Yeah. They don't play back the moments that were bad or the things that were just horrible. And then they tell themselves a new story. It's like the only time we have a positive bias is when it's not serving us. True. Because humans always have a negative bias. Like our brain is just so negative bias. I think it works when we're thinking about our childhood. That's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You see things not for as they were. Or like when you went fishing with your dad. It probably wasn't that amazing. But when you're playing it back, it felt so amazing. But I think, yeah, that's I think that's a slippery well that we all fall into. Yeah. And then that's why there's round two and then round three. And it's like, well, if you guys haven't changed. Yeah. Meaning you go back to each other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's that's got to be intoxicating.

I've never went back to a person, but I can imagine. I almost – because I'm like, no, because you're going to play this dance forever. Well, because you guys probably have boundaries and you guys probably have enough self-esteem to feel like there's something better on the other side. A lot of people, they go right back, waste another year, break up, go wipe it. Wasting time. That's like the last thing I'd ever want to do.

But I mean, people do sometimes get back together. So like, what are, like, do you have rules as a therapist? If your client wants to get back together with an ex, what are the rules? Secondary, uh,

Secondary change. It's change that's irreversible. So not because someone has a better haircut or abs, but they actually have internally changed. How can you tell though until you date them? You can't tell them to experience them in the relationship. Maybe you date. You say, court me again if we're both interested in this. Well, not court me again. Fight me again.

Oh, right. I see and see how I behave. Oh, shit. You didn't throw a chair this time. Yeah. Or you're taking ownership. So like these moments where you're like, oh, you're different. That could work maybe if two people have went and did some stuff and came back. Yeah. Not as reactive. Yeah. You know? Yeah, and they have found the thing that actually made the relationship better is they have found their own motivation to change and improve themselves. Yeah, not for you. Not because it's – yeah, exactly. Because the partner is pushing it on them. Like that's –

And so, but that takes months, maybe years. Yeah. Do around two, two weeks after it's, you're just, it's just the same thing again. I mean, two weeks after it's not even, I mean, what are you, 16? There's this theory, you know, there's this theory that I've heard guys say a lot, but I think it's range true for women too, that the best sex of your life is never going to be a good relationship or never going to be the best relationship. How, how do you feel about that? Tell me more. Yeah.

Like a lot of times like the best sex of your life with a person is usually because there's this crazy electricity that will not sustain an emotional bond required to have a long-term relationship. Yeah, it reminds me of trauma bonding. It reminds me of intermittent love. It reminds me of the friction of two people who are I love you, get away, get away.

And that's hot, you know? I know. The best sex of my life, though, for me, like, it's not one person. It's certain sexual, like, instances. Yeah, fantasies. Like, it's not that, like, the best sex of my life, it's not consistently always one person. Oh, yeah. There's, like, this day, this was amazing. Right, sure. But also, this other person that I slept with, that was, like, up to the caliber of. And then, like, some people,

people that you've had mind-blowing sex with you go back and you have sex with them and you just don't feel the same way about them and you're like oh we used to have mind-blowing sex but we don't anymore like it's still something that needs to be maintained like for me there's not a clear winner in my head of who the best best sex I ever had was because there's a couple different instances yeah with different people for me and the best sex what defines the best sex for you changes yeah all the time right right uh is there a difference between the best sex

And the best connection. Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah. For me. Yeah. So you could have the best sex without having the best connection and you could have the best connection.

And sometimes you have the best sex and you conflate it for the best connection. But like, but Chris, that guy I dated, he was the first guy I ever dated that was filthy. And I'm like, whoa, what is this? Like, just fucking spit on my pussy kind of shit. Like things that I'm like, whoa, I didn't like, Oh, misters, what are you doing? Like, I was very shy and very like, I'm interested in this, but like, I don't know about this world. Like you were saying, but that was a new imprint. That was, that was,

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like that's – That means something and you're like – but it's something I didn't even know I liked. It unlocked something. It unlocked something. That's exactly it. It unlocked something. I get that. It sounds like that your ex – it unlocked something in you that you're like, what? By the way, the squirting thing was amazing. I loved it. Well, she gave you a gift. She gave me a gift. It wasn't a bad thing. It was like, oh my god. So I – the best sex – I mean I've had a couple guys I can go to in my head. But like this guy in particular –

Because he was the first person that was just kind of filthy in the best way, in the hottest way that I'm like, I never want to stop having sex with you ever. I want to always be your penis. I wonder if that would fade. For sure.

For sure. It would have. Yeah. We only, we only dated for, I mean, he was cheating on me the whole time with his ex. Go take a shower now. It was so good. But I also, yeah. I mean, but also back to the question you asked is like, none of the mind blowing sex I've had was with someone who I had no connection with. There was like at least some level of like, we're friends. We like, you know, even if it wasn't like there's a closeness.

Yeah, even if I wasn't in love with the person. I was pretty close to all of these people and had spent a good amount of – even if it was a finite amount of time, it was still over the course of a couple weeks a lot of time together. It wasn't like none of these were one-night stands or guys that I casually dated. Yeah, I think – I'm starting to – listen, I'm older than you guys, so it keeps changing. My palate changes. But I think now for me good sex is a byproduct of –

And the connection can be raunchy, hot, sincere. It could be all different types of so many different types. Yeah. And then the sex just is going to be organically from that. Not like color by numbers, like call me daddy. I'm going to tell you this. I do that. That could also be very those words on our show, John. Okay. Um, that, but that, that could also, uh, uh, be very kind of,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, Vanessa and I have been wine too, but we don't have enough room on our shared calendar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's my next thing. I really want to – well, I have to like educate myself on it first before like you – you can't just dabble in it. You have to like read. No, but you know what? The thing about Tantra is – I mean I could be wrong, but it sounds like – Apparently you can use sex though in your connection with somebody to like go to higher realms. I'm like let's go. That's next level. Yeah. Really? Like how so? What's the realm? It's like DMT but sex. Oh.

Like different worlds almost. You could experience – like a lot of spiritual people. Like you could have a psychedelic experience through genital connection? No, it's breath. So even the breath work. Breathing for the orgasm? It's not like – which is like – No, I thought it was like this – like when people just sit with a penis in a vagina for hours kind of thing. Kind of, but there's a lot of breathing involved and it's just like – I've done breath work. Like a lot of breath work exercises can make you cry, can make you emotional and can certainly induce a psychedelic state. But like Tantra, I think –

While you're inducing that state with somebody you love and they're inside you. That's what – yeah, and I think it's – Show me the other side, baby. Yes, I think it's also the – because you're also touching their heart. You're breathing in sync. Yeah, right. I've heard, yeah. There's a lot of like your bodies disappear. I could totally see it. I've had moments like this with Vanessa. I mean – Yeah. The last time we had sex, she's like, oh my gosh, I felt like I went somewhere and came back. I mean I've come so far and I've blacked out. Is this kind of a thing? Kind of. Kind of. But you're connected to the person the whole time.

Just a little difference. But that stuff I think comes with connection. I don't think you could do that in an alley with a stranger. No, my God. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I see what we're saying. It's vulnerability. It's like eye contact for five minutes and it's like deeper. You leave your body kind of thing. Yeah. With each other though. What? So Sting does this stuff for 12 hours. I've heard. But here's the thing. I feel like he's the only example of someone who actually has done tantric sex. Well, he has a lot of time and money. It's for the purpose.

And then men could have orgasms without orgasming multiple times. Which sounds crazy. That sounds so fun. Someone needs to invent a tantra pill where we can do it in half an hour. I think the time invested is part of it. It's like yoga. It takes time. It's like a practice. It's like when you go on a run. I don't know if you run, but I'll go on runs for like an hour and a half, and I'm like, fuck. At the beginning of the run, you're like, this sucks. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. When you're done, you're like, that was the best decision I've ever made.

I literally don't think I've ever run for an hour and a half in my entire life. I've done an hour. I've done an hour. An hour and a half? You just get – but again, that's why like running – It's mind over matter of course. Yeah, but then you get in this other zone that you're like, whoa, I don't know what plane of – you're on – you're in the plane of reality. So you hit flow state. Yeah, and you're like – you forget that you ran. So you're not thinking of how far of a run am I almost done. You don't even know time exists. You're out of your body. It's crazy. So there's a moment when you're riding a motorcycle, maybe hugging Kenyans in Malibu where you feel like –

You're not on a bike anymore. Totally. I can see that. Maybe cowboys feel this on horses. This is like skiing. This sounds like skiing. You're in the most beautiful scenery. California highways are just like the most stunning fucking highways. Yeah. I mean – and you have this piece of powerful machinery underneath you that you are part of. And then the vibration kind of is like a sound machine. Oh, yeah. That's true. You just kind of like dissolve. The motorcycle is gone.

Wow. Yeah. You have that moment. Well, yeah. Cause when you describe like you could die, like it's life or death. Like that's how I feel when I'm skiing. Like, because you have to concentrate so hard because like you actually are in, you're very, very imminent danger if you fuck up even for a second. So you can't be thinking about taxes. No, that's why it was so freeing. That's why I love it because all I was thinking about was staying alive.

Yeah, which is great. I just have to stay alive right now and I'm not thinking about anything else. It forces you into the here and now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got to do Tantra. That's on my list. That's on my list. Everything we're talking about, by the way, right now is totally prescribed for breakups. That's great. Tantra.

skiing. Yeah. Here and now. Yeah. States creativity. Yeah. But like, so we've been talking about this a lot. Like a lot of these things are luxuries, right? So like things that you need time and money for, how, how do you handle a breakup? If you have, you know, your, your kids, you have two jobs, like, and you don't really have, like, how do you, how do you navigate it then? What do you do? I think, uh, support. Well, I think you do the, you, you craft, uh,

the most that you can with what you have. So if it's one friend, if it's a friend you haven't talked to in a while, so support, you might not be going to big parties, but then maybe out of your house, out of your head is two friends.

fucking walmart i don't know right oh yeah like a simple trip of like i'm just gonna run an errand and buy a loaf of bread yeah yeah no you're right like i'm going to be interested the whole time yeah yeah that is really so i would i would drive to the beach because it's free yeah uh third eye blind just because you know i mean i don't know if you know this but this is this is third eye blind's favorite podcast i said that on purpose yes i also just saw him recently oh really tell me tonight yeah oh

No, saw them in person. I mean, saw them perform. They're great. They're great, yeah. They are great. Fucking absolutely brilliant musicians. By the way, they do that thing where they start playing and you don't know what the song is. Yeah. And it's kind of like a mashup. Yeah. And then it hits. But anyway. They're so good. Running on the Beach.

Diners by myself, headphones, listening to podcasts, Wayne Dyer, journaling. Stuff you could do that's not expensive. Well, running on the beach too, especially if you're like – that's like from the book of Wicca. It's grounding yourself, like starting every day by – one way to – there are various ways to ground yourself, but one way quite simply is touching barefoot to the earth. So I love what you just said, somatic. So anything that brings you into your body. So everything we're talking about, the through line, whether it's –

Tantra, motorcycles. Get the fuck out of your head. It's body related. So ice plunges. Well, for me, ice plunges. Ice, oh, plunges. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm still here. I'm okay. Yeah, I have this. Well, it just pulls you out of your head. All the distorted thinking. Yeah, which is the best. Yeah. Yeah, and it can be like great to wallow in your head a little bit, but then, because like there's, one of my favorite books is called The Untethered Soul. Oh, yeah. And he talks about like your heart is an orchestra, and orchestras can play the most gorgeous,

happy, exciting music you've ever heard and the saddest, deeply moving music. They're both equally amazing. Beautiful, sure. And so who's to say that the sad music is worse because it's sad? Like, no, that's not true. Like, your heart is capable of so many emotions. And there is this, like, weird, when I've been in the throes of grief, this didn't happen with my parents' grief because I was too sad that I couldn't say anything, but, like, with romantic grief and friend breakup grief of, like,

really kind of basking in like wow this is this is the capability of the human heart like these are really heavy fucking feelings but god i feel alive you feel really alive when you're sad speaking of third eye blind i've never felt so alone yeah and i've never felt like a motorcycle drive-by what a great song there's a documentary background also a good song um yeah did you lose your parents

No, I don't speak to them anymore. I don't speak to them anymore. So in a way, you kind of lost your... Yeah, yeah. Grieving that loss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, also, too, like, I thought they were the best thing ever and didn't realize anything was fucked up with the relationship and carrying the stress of it on my shoulders. And then I think the grief also came of, like,

This whole time, this wasn't what I thought it was. So that is also part of a breakup. Yeah. Not a romantic breakup. Yeah. It's very devastating. Yeah. Yeah. And all that grief and all the seven stages of grief and all that. Yeah. And also too, like if you think of like if everybody listening thinks of like the saddest they've ever felt, which is probably so dark and so sad for whatever the circumstance was. I already feel it for people. And then you think of where you are now and like it will always pass. Even your joy will pass. Yeah.

like a wave it gives you more tree rings there's no way it doesn't give you more wisdom yeah when you go through any relationship friendship romantic parents whatever come out the other side stand up look back and you know have perspective it changes you totally perspective new definitions all of that yeah but it's hard you don't see that when you're in it of course because you never do that's why i like talking to somebody who's going through a breakup i'm like

This is going to be confusing to hear, but I'm so excited for you. Because I only see the corner because I'm not involved in the relationship. So it's, of course, easy. I started a little community because I don't know what else to do for people going through this. Yeah. Oh, that's good. Where can we find this community? It's an app called Sing On Purpose. Oh, you have your own app. Hell yeah. It's been in the making for two years.

Oh, congratulations. That's awesome. Well, because I keep pairing. I hate swiping. I hate swiping and fucking wear baseball cards and toxic dates. Yeah. Oh, is it a dating app too? Well, it is an indirect dating app. Oh, that's cool. It's all singles. It's a bunch of vulnerable people talking about breakups together. It's about being single. They need healing. Yeah. Well, I think too, like when you're word vomiting because you're in pain from a breakup, it feels a little bit better to also word vomit to somebody who's also hurting because you're like, at least I'm not burning you. You get it.

Do you guys feel like dating apps – are your friends all hate swiping or they love it? Pretty much. My friends are not on dating apps. It feels like it's happening where people are like, OK, I'm done with this. Yeah, like real-world connection is much more – it's finally being seen as the value that it is. So it's organic connections through the app where you're trying to find yourself. Yeah. And then, well, we have – everyone here is single. I like that because it's no pressure. There's no pressure. I like that. I imagine that's really good for the women.

No pressure, no filtered photos. None of that. It's – no one's – You're not trying to impress anybody. You're just being yourself. No, no, no. You're just being yourself. But you're being vulnerable. Which oddly enough, that's where a relationship – a new one could spark. Well, the connection is coming from vulnerability, not from the filtered photos. Yeah. Anyway –

That's my new thing. Okay, cool. Well, congrats. And your new book, Breakup on Purpose, a Catalyst for Growth by John Kim is out. Is it out now? Can people preorder it? It's preorder. It'll be out December 31st. December 31st. Amazing. New year, new you, baby. Yeah. All right. Well, congratulations on the book. Thanks for stopping by. It's always good having a conversation with you. Thank you for having me. We appreciate it. Yeah, always fun. Yeah.

Thank you. This has been Guys We Fucked, the anti-slut shaming podcast. We'll talk to you next Friday. Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary, created and hosted by Corinne Fisher and Christina Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination by Eric Freddie. Theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake Kozen. We found ourselves in this beautiful space. But we've opened our eyes and both white flags are in the air.

And we know this real type of feeling is hard for us to fight. But right now we need to keep our dreams at the top of our minds. It's just not the right time, so here's to a bittersweet good. What a bittersweet good.

I'm still conflicted and I don't want this to end But I've got to spend some time with my heart and no one else And I know this decision isn't easy for you You want to grow on your own but you don't want to let me go

And it's not the right time So here's to a bittersweet goodbye What a bittersweet goodbye I hate that it's time To say this bittersweet goodbye What a bittersweet goodbye And if we follow our heads We'll starve our hearts Goodbye

We'll be safe in knowing we'll never fall apart. And if we follow our hearts, we may lose our thing. But at this point, I guess we're just not willing to risk that yet. It's just not the right time, so here's to a bittersweet goodbye.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪

So