STRAIGHT WOMEN’S LIVES ARE VERY HARD?
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Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the Surviving Sister Wives podcast. Sister Wives returns at last. And while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance. Christine is off living in newly married bliss. And Cody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions we've been begging to know. Sister Wives returns Sunday, April 20th at 10 on TLC.

Hey, y'all. Quick heads up before we start. You're about to hear a bonus episode of Guys We Fuck that normally only our subscribers get. If you like what you hear, avoid missing out and subscribe now. It's only $29 a year, and it's easy to do. You could sign up either on our Spotify show page or at this page to listen on other platforms. Go to luminary.link slash GWF promo. Again, that's luminary.link slash GWF promo.

See you in the bonus episode lounge, dearest fuckers. Welcome to Guys We Fuck, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. I'm Christina Hudson. I'm Corinne Fisher. The Slutty Boyfriend. It's your slutty, your horny, and your shame.

Hey, you a slut? Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about fucking. Hello, bonus fuckers. Welcome to a rousing episode of Guys We Fucked. What a time to be alive. It's the anti-slut shaming bonus podcast. I'm Corinne Fisher. I'm Christina Hutchinson. Welcome, welcome to the show. Thank you for being a subscriber. We appreciate you. Oh, really quick.

If you're a listener, well, if you're a listener to this, that means you're a Luminary subscriber. If you are in England, London, England, this Friday and this Saturday, I will be performing at the Top Secret Comedy Club. Please come. It's going to be really fun. I'm just going to be doing quick sets on the shows. Go to my Instagram, at Christina Hutch, to get tickets for the show, to find out the times of the show. But I will be at Top Secret Comedy Club Friday and Saturday, April 4th and April 5th. I cannot wait to not be in America. Oh, boy.

Girl, I'm so anxious. Oh. I'm like calm about it, but I'm beginning like dreams and feeling like, Jesus Christ. What do you mean? Just like, and I remember I got this around January, like before January 6th, and I was like, what the fuck is this? It's like, it's not, it doesn't belong to me. You know when you feel like an anxiety that somebody else's or like a collective? Yeah. So I've been getting that, which, you know, that's- That's me at every Kesha concert. Yeah.

Why? Well, because it's like a lot of people who are like survivors or queer. So they've been through a lot of things that and are unsure how to navigate them. Yeah. And then I feel that and I'm like, I can't come to these concerts anymore, even though I love Kesha. I just get like, you know, hopefully I'm wrong, but I get these like little inklings and I'm like, I just feel like.

Civil War or World War III is coming. And then you read the news and you're like, man, it's all kind of saying that.

We'll see. I mean, we're going to be okay either way. I still commit to remain calm and optimistic. But it's just like a feeling that's knocking at me for the last two weeks. Well, I mean, I think there's also different ways, especially with woo-woo stuff, when you interpret it. You're interpreting it as that, but what does that mean? Is it an actual war? Sure. Is it a technological war? Is it...

Something like COVID part two. I think there's a lot of ways to interpret that. But I mean, we kind of knew if you're into astrology, astrologically, 2025 is like...

uh, that too's in areas. It's like the big, it's like the big bang too. Like everything will change. Like even Aliza Kelly, who we've had on the show many times when I announced I was running for mayor, she goes, cause of course my friend's running for mayor because it's 2025. Like all this kind of weird shit is in the cards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,

I feel like a like a like a yeah, I just think something I feel like a lot of I mean, a lot of instability is currently unfolding in America. And it's it is nice to watch all these other countries go, what the fuck? But it seems like at the same time, they're understanding them. And the majority of Americans, even the ones that voted for Trump are trying to are starting to turn on him.

Thank God. Thank fucking God. The other countries are full of shit. The whole world is making a right word movement. Germany, like all these countries. I thought Germany was ready to go to war because of Russia. But just as far as we're talking about conservatively, that's happening worldwide. And that's why I talked about that at length on Without a Country because...

I feel like everyone's just, you know, we're in a bubble here in America and especially, yeah. And I think the bubble, you know, sometimes we're in a bubble in that, like we're the greatest, but I think right now we're in a bubble where like, we're the only place where things are going in this direction. And it's absolutely not true. The whole world is making a, is making a push to conservative values. It's a correction. It's a correction of the left. Like,

basically abandoning the working class and concentrating on very small minority groups. And while those people absolutely deserve rights, the problem is most people do not belong to those groups. And so they feel like they have been left in the dust. Yeah. And so that's basically what's happening worldwide. But I mean, it does make, you know, it makes...

I think it makes me feel better when it's not only our country, when it's something that's happening worldwide. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I feel like, I don't know if I could say this on the mic. Whatever. We can cut it out if you think I shouldn't. I cannot wait. Whatever this is, I cannot wait. All right. I'm going to put a marker down. We're going to timestamp it before it leaves Christina's mouth.

Yes. It's called the Christina insurance. I feel like Trump's going to get assassinated. Oh, I have like a heavy feeling. I'm not, I'm not saying I want anybody to get assassinated, but someone big is going to get assassinated. Like, you know, like the pattern app. I know we've been talking about the pattern app for a real ass long time.

I'm entering this weird phase, this, you know, kind of phase of my pattern where it's like the psychic... I've always been told, Pisces, so psychic. Oh my God, every time somebody's wearing my chart, you're so psychic. And I'm like, okay, cool. Where is the psychic? Where? Give me the psychic field because I have not...

Someone tells you that I go, can we use it on her for her picking like people to be in her life? Decisions. What to wear. I mean, so many things. I was like, use that psychic stuff for the people that you trust. I know, right? I know. I would love to. That's why I am doing a therapeutic mushroom trip in a couple weeks. And honestly, I just want upstate New York. Mike Fanoia, baby. I'm doing it with the lady he recommended. I love to hear the word lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would never. Come on, Corinne.

That's all I care about. Will it be with a lady? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then we're good. But I really want to get – and I have that Akashic Records reading. I really want to figure out – everybody's been telling me I'm so psychic. Well, I've not been able to access this power. But lately, I've just been getting like weird – and it's not about me personally. It's just about the world. And I'm like – it's like a looming cloud that's –

That's about to burst. I don't know. It's very interesting. How do you like so how do you know like you need some kind of like a like Miss Honey from Matilda to help you? I hope that I hope that lady mushroom lady is going to do that for me.

Well, yeah, because I always wonder, I'm like, who are the people who can help you use your gifts? Like even in Wicked, you know, she meets, did you see it? She meets the lady who helps her use her skill. I mean, she ends up being evil, but yeah. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I could turn evil. I don't have that in my bones. But yeah, I mean, that's what I'm kind of,

I didn't purposely go, April's the month that I'm going to dive into this, but it just so happens that that mushroom trip I scheduled six months ago and this Akashic thing was just random, but they're kind of back to back. So we'll see. I just feel like, and I like saying things out loud because if it comes true, I have my own record of it, but...

Yeah, something... Nothing to do with me personally. What was the tarot card you pulled for April when you did your year-long spread? Do you remember? Good question. No, I don't. I'll have to look. I wrote it down. Because what are the ones that talk about psychic energy where we do something maybe like the...

The magician, well, it could be like the moon, the unknown, like the April was good. Magician could be like a weird, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I feel like it was good. We'll see. But I don't know. It's just weird. I just feel like this like tension, so much tension and so much like something is about to happen-ness. Yeah. But like bad? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, but to the... Yeah, frankly, yeah. But to the world, like worldwide, which, I mean, for me, if I get a heads up, I will be totally fine. Like, truly, even if, like, bombs get dropped on you, like, we'll figure it out. Also, I'm not afraid of death, thank God. Well, I don't think you really have time if a bomb gets dropped on you to think about it. Totally. You just...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like the anxiety is not, it's just there and it's not affecting like my day to day, but I'm like, yeah, something's, something's brewing. Something's brewing. Should I leave that in? Yeah, you leave it in. I'm not saying anybody should be shot or whatever. Well, I mean, you know, Trump, I said before he turned on the mic, we, you know, he's, uh,

talking about running for a third term already because the second one is going so well. Dumbass. But again, I mean, this is no surprise and, you know, this is kind of why I'm like,

I honestly feel if no one even reacted on the left, if we just didn't cover it, I feel like he wouldn't do it. I feel like he's a kid, like a kid acting out. If we all go, okay, yeah, do that. There's a lot of people that are emotionally harmed internally and they, they get a ride. They, their idea of affecting anybody. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative. Like, so there's some people and he's one of them. So it's like, I think negative attention really fuels him. So yeah, I totally agree.

Yeah, totally agree. It's I, he, I don't think he's like really, it's like he enjoys serving the public. No, he's not a servant in any way. Yeah. I mean, come on guys. It's a good time for me to run for mayor. It really is. You know, well, I kind of think a lot of people are kind of like, yeah, why not? Cause it's, and it's all going to shit. Yeah. And again, I mean, I was talking about this for years on with out of country, how in a way, um,

And not like in a way, Donald Trump gave me permission to run for mayor. Totally. You know? Yeah. And I think that's a good thing, but we have to start getting people who are trustworthy. And it's a weird thing to say about yourself. Hi, I'm trustworthy. Like I can't really say it about myself because it doesn't really work. Well, people need to earn your trust. But yeah.

Yeah, you know, I've, yeah. Well, that's why I'm so excited for these debates because I know that you will prove yourself very easily and quickly. Well, I just like, I watched my, like I watched the interview I did back on The Point with Marcia Kramer and it's like,

Perhaps I'm not as polished as all these other politicians, especially because the way I have been speaking for years is not prepared. But they prepare this 10-minute blip that they do on every single show that they appear on. Whereas me, I was actually trying to...

the questions that she asked in real time. Like, I know the TV trick is to not answer the question you are asked, but to answer the question you want to answer. That's a political trick, though, right? It's a TV trick and a political trick. It...

And I understand that, but I don't want to use those tricks. So I am actually listening in real time. And that's why, you know, every now and then there'll be an um or a like because I'm actually processing the question that the person asked me. Obviously, I studied for hours.

on the policy that I think that she would be going over with me. And like, you know, your campaign tells the producers, the things that you're specifically interested in highlighting. Ultimately, she's going to ask what she's going to ask. She's also a really quick interviewer. So like, it's like this grilling style. So I had to be, you know, uh, prepared to move pretty quickly. Um,

I watched the interview twice. I thought the way you spoke was so good. Thanks. It was so like, you know, we talk about, like we talked about when you were running, you know, when you're going to be doing interviews in the future, like your guys we fucked speech pattern is not going to like people are, you know, we want to get ahead of, we all want to give people AMO.

And the way you've been talking in these types of interviews has been like this beautiful politician is blossoming from you. At the same time, it's very human. I really loved when you were talking. Well, that's the thing. I want to not sound like a robot. No. And I feel like I sound like I'm in control of the situation. Yeah.

And present. Present, empathetic, but not like bleeding heart. Yeah, not a pussy ass bitch. Yeah. And yeah. And and but still like a regular person, because that's the thing. Like even the even the other candidates who I like are

They just, it feels a little robotic or like car salesman-y. Yeah. Because their speaking engagements are all boring. You know, for the last decade, our speaking engagements have been extremely interesting to us and very fun. So it's towing the line between those two things. Yeah. That's what I was trying to achieve. I liked the, when you were talking about the cops having mandatory check-ins, like mental health check-ins. Yeah.

And what you were saying about how like a lot of people, you know, a lot of cops, they're blue collar workers, especially men. They're not going to be like, they're not going to, yes, the therapy is provided if they want to seek it, but they're not, they're going to be hesitant to seek it out. There's been studies. It's mandatory. Yeah, it's fine. And so I was like that, that point was so good and so undeniably helpful to the, to a police department. Yeah, there's, there was, I was reading all these studies where people were talking to the, you know, NYPD officers and they,

They said that they did want to get help, but they felt nervous about it. I think they're also concerned that

It will get out to the rest of the department that they went. And then maybe they'll be under a magnifying glass. Either they'll be under a magnifying glass, like they're unstable or the people will think they're a pussy ass bitch. Right. Right. You know, and, and both things are, and also I want it to be like a third party mental health, uh, you know, provider, not someone internally that, you know, cause I wouldn't trust them to keep everything confidential because it's, you know,

Corruption. Yeah. Corruption. Also, any job that you carry a gun that could kill somebody. Are you kidding me? Like, I get... Or where you use a gun in the room. Yeah, I get... Exactly. I get nervous if there's a gun in the room. I mean, that's a different story. But, like, just a gun is... That's a powerful instrument. And to...

Have that control. The Stanford prison experiment is such a great window into the nature of a human being and how anybody, no matter how virtuous you are or how much of a sociopathic piece of shit you are, we all have this human tendency to want to control, to want to put our foot on the bag, like the bad guy, the story that we build up in our head about whoever the other person is.

And so I think therapy is a must. I mean, for everybody, but especially if you carry a gun. Yeah, listen, like ACAB didn't work, right? And even like if I've had a lot of negative experiences with the police myself, and I'm a white woman, so I can only imagine. Well, I don't have to imagine. I've read and seen many videos of what's happening to other people. And I've seen it in real life. You know, you see how cops handle different demographics of people. And it's...

It's unjust. But I just think that there has to be... The middle ground here is I don't think it's like, fuck cops, and I don't think it's no cops. I think it's like, how about we treat everyone with empathy? And I know a lot of people are like, yeah, that's the woke thing that got us into this, you know...

trouble into the first place. And I go, no, I think it's the thing that we not, not, we never actually tried it because Democrats kind of keep going back, um,

you know, trying to be these diet Republicans. So we've never really tried this over, you know, this empathetic approach and smaller cities have tried it. And it usually works out pretty well. Like investing in communities works better than over policing communities. Yes, it just does. And like we have, there's statistics to prove it. And I, and I think too, in addition to like you leading with empathy, I think a huge part of that is, is,

Like when, especially when you talk about your programs with the cops, it's humanizing the, like the people of a city humanizing the police officers and the police officers humanizing every single person that they interact with. Well, that's the key. That's the key that I think the left was like missing was like, you know, was the humanizing the cops part. Yeah. Like there was a guy on my subway ride this morning who was,

homeless and he was on one of those seats that was maybe like a four person bench. Yeah. So he was taking up the whole one and he was just straight up fucking the seat. Oh. He was humping the seat. Okay. And like, you know, I could see it easily going like, you know, ah, gross. Or even like a person just going, ah. Sure. But then you go, that person's probably have some mental illness issues that they're, they're actively fighting some demons. So it's like, man, if you could just approach people with, with,

and just look them in the fucking eye. I think it makes a huge difference. Well, that's why I mean, yeah, that's, that's why exactly why I make eye contact with people who I think are going through a mental health crisis. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that helps. I just like, well, cause anytime like someone's like yelling and stuff in my neighborhood and I'm like, you know, they're yelling for whatever they need. But if you just like knowledge them, I really do believe that,

that helps you know i'm not saying you have to give them money or anything like that you just acknowledge them yeah that's it that's free yeah everyone can do that and again like if someone's like acting violently i wouldn't make eye contact with them that's a different thing yeah um but but yeah if someone's just like you know i i don't know i have a not knock on wood but i have a pretty good track record with the the acknowledgement like being pretty calming yeah um totally

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But yeah, I, uh, Oh my God, my thing is going out. I had something else. I don't remember what it was. Oh,

You're just becoming very mayoral and it's very exciting to see, but mayoral in a human way. I'm really, I'm really into municipal policy. I feel like it's so interesting because it feels like it feels so much more within your grasp to make a change. Yes. That's why I like municipal policy. I think we're so, we read so much federal policy and stuff that it, and it feels out of reach because it's too big and it is too big, but municipal feels really fun to,

Because it's stuff that you deal with every day, living in the community that you live in. And you're like, oh, I have so many good ideas for this. Right. Yeah. Like I said, like everyone I've talked to has 100 percent thought that if they were mayor, what would they do? Sure. So I go, OK, let me know those things. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'll put together the ideas that resonate with me. But I'm also learning about, you know, Donald Trump pulling money from every fucking federal program that we have. I'm learning about all these federal programs that we don't have anymore. But like Voice of America, that's such a

fascinating radio program. So it's not broadcasted in America. I'd never heard of it. But Voice of America, I think, was implemented in the 70s. No, it was to fight Nazi, Nazism, like the spread of like extremist propaganda. Yeah. So so so we have or we had, which is sad, but but I was like, oh, that's a cool program. Reporters like reporting to governments like the North Korean government, like Voice of America would air in North Korea and they would have a specific North Korean

anchor and they would say like your government is you're, you're run by a dictator. And these are the things that they're lying to you about. And these are the things they're not telling you. How'd they get that into North Korea? I don't know. I don't know, but it was, it's this beautiful program. Yeah. You should, uh, MSNBC did like a piece on it because they're dismantling it, which is a shame. Uh, hopefully Trump won't serve a third term and, uh, whoever's the president next will reinstate that. But, um, it, it was a really cool, uh,

Radio program News program Well I mean If Donald Trump Tries to do that Every single Democrat Has to stop Paying their taxes That's what I'm saying The thing is We just have no Because I don't We can't agree With each other And like also Democrats are afraid To break the law Everyone has to not Pay their taxes You know what Stop

everyone has to say that on the mic but i was thinking that same thing i'm like everyone has to stop paying their taxes i'll pay my city taxes but you just you just have to stop paying your taxes but we all have to agree that we're not all stop paying our taxes they don't even the fucking there's barely any employees left what are they gonna do well exactly but they might take the money from our bank account it's the fastest way we gotta put in a high take it out and put yeah i mean i do have a high yield savings

that the government doesn't know about. Yeah. I mean, you, you, you have to make big moves, putting on a pussy hat and getting in a, making a sign with glitter on a cardboard is not going to really cut it. If Donald Trump tries to take on a third term yelling, yelling, he's a fascist with a ukulele and kind of cut it. See, that's the kind of shit that, that why the Republicans make fun of us. And I also make fun of us. Yeah. Yeah. I never, I didn't, I gotta be honest. I didn't put on a pussy hat.

Me neither. I didn't even think of that. Ugh. No, they're like the pink, the pink whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, yeah. The Women's March after we got inaugurated. No, absolutely not. I mean, I get the sentiment, but come on, gals. Yeah. We gotta be sharper. Pfft.

All right. Let's say I don't want to tire everyone out with talking about me running for mayor if you don't care. So I picked this article from the New York Mag at the Cut that I thought was really interesting. I haven't read the whole thing because we just got access into it because Christina let

let that trial actually paid for the trial. Um, this is from the cut. It's called if hetero relationships are so bad, why do women go back for more? A new straight studies course treats male female partnerships as the real deviance. I mean, I fucking agree. This to me just was so interesting and so perfect for this show. Um,

So there are certain towns I call bro towns. The sociologist Jane Ward told me we were sitting in the kitchen of her sunny home in Santa Barbara, California. The yard outside was ringed with citrus trees. Ward, a young looking 51, that feels rude, in a plaid romper and Birkenstocks.

had her sandy blonde hair and a few natural grays tucked behind her ears. Okay. We get it. We get it. She's old. Maui is a bro town, she explained. Oh, it sounds like Palo Alto where my brother used to live. That's also a bro town. With its surfer culture and white guys in dreadlocks shouting, oh,

Bra Lake Havasu in Arizona is a bro town with its spring breakers and wet t-shirt contest. That sounds fun. And Santa Barbara home to the number one party school in America, UCSB, also known as University of Casual Sex and Beer. No, that's Penn State. Ward is a professor is definitely a bro town. It has an ethos that just influences everything about life. She said, you know how people drive, what people wear, how the men walk, how people date everything.

Ward is UCSB's chair of feminist studies, and she was preparing for the first day of her new seminar, an intro to her area of expertise, straight studies. And we do need to be studied. What a sad expertise. UCSB presents something of a perfect sample group for her work. Sitting along the Pacific coast, it's one of the only colleges in America that has its own beach,

and male students can be seen riding shirtless on cruiser bikes, no hands, with surfboards under their arms. Girls work on their tans after class. Isla Vista, the square-mile main drag of the school's party scene, has long been a popular scouting location for reality porn. Oh, good. The vibe of the campus, at least on the weekends, is reminiscent of the scene in the Barbie movie where the Kens have turned Barbie's house into the Mojo Dojo Casa house. Oh, no.

and decided to throw a party. It was a Monday in January, the first one back after winter break, and the temperature was, per usual, a perfect 72 degrees. Over on the main quad, blonde frat guys with clipboards were recruiting potential members as young women practiced K-pop dance moves,

and a student from the psych program solicited responses for a dating survey. In a fourth-story classroom, Ward and I joined 28 undergraduates as they moved their desks into a circle. They looked a bit different from their peers outside. Most were dressed in baggy jeans and oversized T-shirts. There were a few septum rings and at least one fuck tuition sticker on a laptop.

Hell yeah. The course was formally called Critical Heterosexuality Studies and Ward was about to become its lesbian sage. Thank you. We need a lesbian to teach us or a gay guy. That's so interesting because can you imagine if a straight person tried to teach a course on homosexuality? Well, yeah. It wouldn't be beneficial. People would riot. But I will say I learned a lot from Dan Savage when he first introduced to me this idea that gay guys...

Like if I fuck, if I have a boyfriend and then my gay guy, we break up and my gay guy I know wants to date him. They date. Like they don't even talk to me because like there's not a lot of us. So we don't, we're not possessive like that. That's a study in men though. Like that's my, when I hear Dan say stuff like that, I go, I hear you. I think that's more, that's a man thing, not necessarily a gay thing. And I know lesbians did a lot within the same, same, same circle. But to me, that just feels like men just fucking want to fuck.

You know, like the culture in a gay bar is completely, completely revolves around sex. Yeah. Like a lot of gay bars just have straight, like, like pornography, gay pornography playing or just like pictures of people with their hard cocks out. Oh, that's great. Like, I don't think lesbians want just like this. Well,

man. Although I will say the one lesbian, there's not enough lesbian bars. Number one. Number two, the lesbian bars need to go out more. They do. I don't think they do. They totally do. I don't think they go out enough. I feel like they do. I gotta be honest. I mean, no one, and this is my, this is my, you know, if this brings down the campaign, so be it. We know lesbians are like the least fun audience members. Even Ashley, Ashley, Ashley Gavin. Yeah. Even knows that that's why she, that's why she,

really is like onto something because she talks to her crowd in a, in a different way and makes fun of them for being right. Yeah. But, and I know we're not gay, so we're talking about a group that we're not part of, but like it's like the, the, the, the butch leaning lesbians are the, like I'm attracted, one I'm attracted to cause they have, they have, I mean a masculine energy that I'm like, Ooh, and you're a woman. And I'm like, Oh, double whammy. That's great. But I also feel like chill as hell.

No? Why not? I don't feel... Emma Willman? Chill as hell. Emma Willman's her own person. I know. I love her. Emma Willman is... Yeah. You can't... Anyone who's a comedian has a different overpowering character trait, I feel like. Maybe we're spoiled with the best lesbians. But I mean, also, you know...

Dogs wouldn't be rescued if it wasn't for lesbians. They would all be out loose. So thank you. They're just good. I don't know. It's not about them not being good people. Right, of course, of course. When I think good time, I'm going to think gay man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, look, I'm thinking of all the gay bars I've been to and all the lesbian bars I've been to.

totally different vibes. Totally, like totally different. Yeah. Cause I feel, you know, I wanted to talk and which I get, but yeah, I also like, let me be a slut and dance to Kesha. Yeah. And get felt up by a man who's not trying to fuck me. That's just so lovely. Yeah. Great time. Anyway, sorry. Uh, wait, wait, what is it? Where are we at? Uh, okay. I feel like this class will answer a lot of like, why are they like that? Uh, a student named Anthony told the group he's a global studies major and identifies as gay. Uh,

Okay. How about he just is gay? Right. We're making it so complicated. Yeah. I feel bad for some of my straight friends, said Sarah, a comparative literature major from Long Beach. They're like, oh my God, my boyfriend got me flowers for the first time in two years. I'm like, can we raise the bar? Hell yeah. Yeah, really. Danny, a psychology and brain sciences major from Dallas who is bisexual, confessed that she'd observe herself behave in ways that disturbed her when she dated men. Wow.

love that she was more submissive more self-conscious inattentive to her own needs totally and wanted to understand why Julia who cheekily revealed that she is actually straight but queer enough to be here that's how I feel oh

I was just going to say Julia's problematic. Yeah, that's fine. She said she thinks that a lot of straight relationships create that kind of insecurity. Simran, a feminist studies and psychology double major who described herself as constantly confused about my sexuality, but definitely not straight, said she has trouble imagining being a parent without a man in the picture. What was that about?

Hmm. That's a good question. Let's try to answer that in the next few weeks. Ward said she was carrying a water bottle with a pink sticker reading. Good luck, babe. The title of a Chapel Roan song about a woman who ends up with a man. And well, good luck with that. In this class, we're going to flip the script. She went on. It's going to be a place where we worry about straight people, where we feel sympathy for straight people. We are going to be allies to straight people. Hmm.

Fascinating. Feels wrong to say. Fascinating. Boo. Towards knowledge and mind, her class is the first course of its kind, approaching straight culture head-on as its primary subject. Strangely, few academics seem to have been drawn to the topic. Since the early days of sex research from Freud to Kinsey and now today's vast world of scientists and theorists...

scholars have been trying to understand the element of sexual and romantic desire but investigation has tended to focus on deviations from the perceived norm was being gay a choice is sexual preference a spectrum does homosexuality have its roots in nature or nurture fascinating questions I know I would love to take this class I know god I wish it was online heterosexuality tended to be studied only as

the background condition of other phenomena in the context of sexual assault, domestic labor, sexual satisfaction. And there was a brief period in the late 1970s and early 1980s when some feminists demanded it be studied as a political institution, one they believed upheld by the patriarchy. But as the study of LGBTQ identity and relationships has continued to expand and deepen, the world of heterosexuality among academics has remained unrivaled

largely unexamined because men don't want us to examine it because then we can pick it apart and maybe fix it and then they won't get as much. It's the wallpaper against which other exhibits are hung. It just is.

it seems this have may have been a mistake after years of headlines about Gen Z being the most progressive generation in history. I mean, I would hope that would be true for every generation. Exactly. Um, and after decades of what seemed to be broad mainstream progress on sex and gender equality, a cold backlash has arrived hitting the socially liberal among us like a Saratoga ice water facial plunge. I thought of you when I read that line, Erica. Um, we,

We've all been familiar for some time with the Tradwives, the influencers preaching reborn domesticity to the masses, describing daily chores with saccharine captions about the joys and freedoms of submitting to men. What the fuck? Remember, we even read that email last week from a listener who said that she enjoys our show, but she does believe that she should submit to her partner. Remember? Yeah, and I mean...

I don't agree with it, but it is. I think some people feel safety in that. Yeah, that's their experience. It's way easier. I guess. If you just relax and say, my man's got control of it. But a lot of times, straight people are dealing with men who just...

have such a lack of control with it that we can't feel that safety. So it is an impossibility to allow us to submit, you know? Right, right, right. It is nice. Especially when men are our greatest enemy. Yeah, I will. I will say like, I certainly don't submit to my boyfriend, but I can like count on him to do things without me hovering over him. Amazing.

And it feels very light. It's nice. And nice. Yeah, because that's a partnership. I also feel like your boyfriend has a really...

my favorite type of masculinity is like this gentle masculinity. Yeah. He's like super strong. It reminds me of my dad. I said, what the fuck wound is this healing? Yeah. Like it doesn't look like my dad, but like a lot of, and he's not like as a, like a, my dad was very outgoing. He's, he's quieter than my dad. Um, but I was like a good dad, the same. He has the same form exactly as you said of masculinity. Yeah. But you, you don't have daddy issues and quotes. I hate that word,

But like, well, I think when your dad dies, that creates issues. Sure. So it's like, I think it's like, yes, no, I don't have a wounded relationship with him. But now it's like when your dad, like, or any parent dies, it's kind of like it leaves this ellipses, I would say for the rest of your life. Sure. So it's like this kind of like all these other things that I will go through in life. It's just like without him. It's just, it's like, okay, so he got me to here. And then you're on the road alone. And then you're like, well, who, who,

you know, it's kind of that it's just an ellipsis is the way I would explain it. Oh God, that reminded me of something I wanted to write down. Okay. Um, and we've known about the, uh, submitting to that. Okay. And we've known about the popularity of Andrew Tate, the self-proclaimed misogynist and alleged human trafficker. Unless, unless,

and less violent but still noxious pod men. The online world seems to get weirder and more retrograde about heterosexuality every day. Idealized masculinity has become more aggressive, more jacked up, and also more high maintenance. Have you heard of mewing? I haven't. Eric, can you look that up, please? Yeah, I know what that is. What is it? It's a kitten? It's like doing the Riz face. It's like a facial thing to look good.

Oh, like a model face? Yeah, it's like model face. Like, ooh, I'm a model. Oh. Gooning and mewing, those are two gymsies. What's the other word? Gooning. Oh, okay. Gooning, I know. I'm from JJ. Jesus, I don't know any of those words. While femininity gets ever softer, more nurturing and domestic, and somehow still more sexy. Of course. It seems that almost weekly, there's yet another trend of

or meme promoting traditional gender roles. Recently, for example, there's been talk about men needing to make themselves into masculine containers for feminine surrender. Okay, Tate. If they want a prime companion. More than any

There was a way to see all of this online as online reality and not necessarily representative of real culture. But in November, Trump's victory revealed in full frontal that young men have become distinctly more conservative. Yes, which is. Yeah, they have.

Very jarring. And that there is a new and stark political divide between them and their female counterparts who have remained largely liberal. Polls leading up to the election showed the widest gap in political views in American history. Enough young American women are fed up with the current realities to make a sizable trend of their own.

declaring themselves boy sober great name for an improv team yeah or a band yeah shit I want to start a band I know I love boy sober great fuck

Or voluntarily celibate or proclaiming themselves as part of the 4B movement, which we talked about like maybe a couple months ago. Just girlfriends living together in a mansion. Sounds fucking awesome. Born in South Korea, which rejects all sexual and romantic relationships with men. Some have taken to painting themselves in unapproachable makeup. That's funny.

That's really funny. That's so funny. Makeup's so severe. Do you like my eyeliner? It keeps the guys away. That's so funny. You know what? That's so freeing. I want to do a... We should do an unapproachable makeup episode. Yeah. Yeah. Also, like, the freedom. And not say anything and just clip it. And I want to just, like, wear my hair super frizzy, like, scary frizzy. Yeah. Fuck. We should do that for an episode. I'll look way scarier than you. I like... Because that's curly hair. I love unapproachable makeup.

um, older eye makeup. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, that's the kind of makeup I prefer. Anyway, I want so much eyeliner on that. It's, I have trouble lifting my eyelids. Yeah. That's my dream. Just like I, I've had, I've stopped doing eyeliner for the campaign because it's like, I wear, it's kind of witchy. Totally. Yeah. But anytime, like the few moments I've had when I'm not on the campaign trail, I just like pile it on. Amy Winehouse times five. Yes.

Love. Older straight women who seem to be experiencing many of the same frustrations as women 50 years ago are tearing through divorce memoirs and novels, most often stories of liberation. In 2019, the gender scholar Asa Saracen coined the term hetero-pessimism to describe straight women's performative expressions of regret, embarrassment, and hopelessness about their hetero lives.

She's not wrong. It is performative. Uh, performative Saracen rights, not because it is insincere, but because it is rarely accompanied by the actual abandonment of straight relationships. Exactly. Interesting. No one's doing it about it again. Liberal. Um,

And this is not an attack. I'm not, you know, I still always, you know, vote left and stuff. I'm just like trying to like wait, like be like, we fucking got to do things. And also we need to be more open in terms of like taking a critical eye to ourselves. For sure. Everybody is a part of multiple groups. Your racial group, your sexual orientation group. Like there's so many groups one individual person is a part of. And I think it's so important.

so necessary and makes you feel more of a human to like openly criticize or like talk out. Like what could my group be doing better? What could I be doing better? Well, the thing is like you can criticize Republicans all you want. You're not a Republican and you're not part of the group. So you really can't change it. We only have control over ourselves. Totally. So it's kind of like, what can we do? Ward refers to all of this anguish as the tragedy of her sexuality. Girl, I agree. Oh boy. Which is also the title of her 2020 book. We got to interview her.

And the text on which her straight studies course is based. Despite the half century of supposed advances since the sexual revolution, she says heterosexuality is still a mess. Yeah, it is. Culture, you know, culture is a huge part of that. Mm-hmm.

Back at her house overlooking her neighbor's terracotta rooftops, she said, I think it's really a tough pill to swallow for many straight women. She made a bit of a pained face that the hope that men were getting better with each generation that, you know, as time went on, they would be more committed to gender justice or equity, that it simply did not come true. And we've talked about that so much on the show. I just so wish more guys cared about.

voting for somebody who raped. They don't need to because we keep fucking them. They just don't need to. This is why I want to be gay. They don't need to make changes when nothing... I mean, one of the many reasons. They don't need to make changes when nothing changes for them. Why would they? It's actually... You're right. I agree with them. You're right. Yeah, yeah. Because why would they spend energy doing good just for the sake of doing good when they could keep making money and fucking? Yes. And what I said earlier about the culture take... Like, I think...

Culture has such a big part to do with the straight guy's attitude because the 70s and maybe the 80s and 90s more so, I feel like culture in movies, in television, in music videos, in magazines catered to a straight man's sexuality. I think about this all the time. Because I think about what if my personal sexuality was catered to by entire culture, an entire society, an entire country? Men with scarves?

or glasses with reading books reading poetry yeah it's just like kind of gay but not oh thank god or just riz Ahmed that's my sexual orientation I think he's hot I have I told you about I have this out of this phone now um Instagram album in my uh account called guys I'd fuck and it's just like 80 photos of riz Ahmed but also Dave like I look at the David Beckham the new David Beckham uh Calvin Klein ads mm-hmm

That is catering to my own sexual orientation. I mean, and when I but when I see those ads, I get a burst of energy. I feel like I walk with a pep. I walk as if I just had sex. And so I can imagine putting myself in a straight guy's shoes for the last two decades, three decades, four even.

You know, if all of culture was just giving me those hits of catering to my own sexuality, I would feel so empowered and want to protect that at all costs. So, yeah, I could see where it makes an entire group an arrogant ego mess. Yeah. You know, you don't have to. Yeah. And then you add porn. Oh, yeah. Guys never going to get hard again. I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed.

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Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the Surviving Sister Wives podcast. Sister Wives returns at last, and while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss, and Cody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions we've been begging to know. Sister Wives returns Sunday, April 20th at 10 on TLC.

Ward approaches her subject through a mix of historical research, current cultural analysis, light ethnography. She's observed classes for male pickup artists. Oh, yes. That's interesting. And a heavy. I love that. So fascinating. This is this guy I get all the time. He is the number one. This is in his bio. Number one high achieve. Number one dating coach for high achievers. Oh, fuck off. I hate him already. 2,700 followers.

It's 2,700. Oh, I was like, I was going to interview him and then I was like, no. No. And all of his content is of the same guy he's coaching. Stop. Yes. I feel bad for him now. And this guy that he's coaching is a guy who has like 100K followers on Instagram. Oh, what? But...

He's paying. Yeah, paying. Follows zero people. All of his content is him creating himself on podcasts with no other person. So it's all fake content. Fake podcast content. Yes, he's making fake podcast content. And then fake speeches where he puts in like crowd noise. I'm going to move to Mexico. Oh my God. Wow. It's a.

Thank you for keeping your finger on the pulse for real. Yeah. Culture is wild, man. Oh my God. And a heavy dose of personal reflections as a queer woman who spent some time on the other side. She finds that straight relationships are full of contradictions and antagonism and boredom. Yeah. The boredom though.

erotically uninspired. Oh, Jesus. Paralyzed by punishing gender expectations and burdened by countless daily injustices. I'm going to marry this woman. The common narrative about gay relationships and gay life, Ward writes, is that it's a difficult path and she admits it certainly can be hard, but she believes straight women actually have it worse, that the cards are fully stacked against them. You know what? I mean,

mean I don't know about that but like I mean in terms of maybe how we're treated by society no but all but yeah that's why I that's why all my bits about like if I had to choose my sexual orientation it would be gay because that's the that's the gender I know I still wouldn't I'd rather be abused than talk to um

I couldn't... I can't handle all the talking. That's right up my alley. I know. It really would be perfect for you. It would be perfect. It would be very sweet and comforting. Yeah. I accidentally saw...

My partner, a long time, he told me he went to Thailand and got his chart read and he knows when he's going to die. And I was like, okay. I love how he's both anti-WuWu and WuWu at the same time. He's not anti. He's not anti. He just had a... He's not anti. He's open. Or like wary. Yeah. Yeah. He's cautious. As am I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He honestly has a similar thing as you. When he has an experience where he's like, oh, fuck.

Anyway, I was cleaning my apartment. He was away. You stumbled upon something again, Christina? I found the chart. You found something? I found the thing that said when he's going to die. Okay, so you know? Yeah. Okay. And are you disturbed by it? No, no. We're all going to die. I mean, you know, he's 14 years older than me. I just didn't know if it was like, you know, soon. No, no, no, no. It's long enough that we get a good, we have a good run. But if we stay together for the remainder of that. But I'm like, I think after that I might be gay. Okay. I'm going to try it. Okay. Okay.

Well, then I guess it is a choice. I guess we just cancel this course. Honestly. Word. Word. Pack your bags. If you're not gay, you're not trying hard enough. I know. I mean, I've had so many like sexual relationships with women. So it's not like out of the it's not a it's not completely random for me. No, I just like and the idea of of trying of dating women of setting up a profile to date women. Oh,

everything that this author in this article is talking about, all those stresses that straight women feel, the internalizing the male gaze, all of that bullshit, but the, the minding how you look and, and on like subconsciously dressing or acting. Like I have to remind myself every day, I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for me. And I am, but like I have to remind myself, but if I went, I'm doing this. Yeah. It looks real sane, but I'm like, if I was trying to date women, yeah.

None of that would exist. You just really phoned it in? No, I would just be myself without even double, like, thinking twice. Right. Like, I wouldn't have to remind myself, this is for me. Would you stop getting blowouts or? No, because I do. Like, what are we talking about? Oh, okay. I like the blowouts. I didn't know what level we were talking about. No, no, that's for me. Well, honestly, my life's easier with the blowouts. True. But, and curly hair just sometimes, it just looks crazy. Mine, anyway. But, yeah, I just feel like,

all of these straight, like what she's saying about like straight women do have a bad. That's why the idea of being a lesbian is so fucking appealing. Yeah. One of the many reasons. Yeah. And just whip. I just love women. I love them too, but from a distance. Totally. I just like, I'm way gayer than you.

I, well, I'm trying, I was trying to think of like my gayest moments. I think it's like when I tell it, when I tell it, no, that to me wasn't gay. That was just like, that was just like helping out a sister. Um, that was truly like, that was just, that was just philanthropy. Yeah.

Because I just saw that she wanted to do it. I just saw that they were just making such an honest commitment to add spice to their relationship. Yeah, that's sweet. And I could tell no one was kind of going for them. Yeah. And I was like, I can help you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not, because I knew it was just, it was not going to bother me. And I was like, I'm not getting any satisfaction out of being here sexually, so might as well do an act of service. Yeah.

Corinne for mayor. I already paid the admission fee. Let's get something. I don't like being not productive. You need to help somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just like, and I just knew it wasn't going to bother me to let this nice old lady figure me out. I'm so glad you still have this outlet. Guys, we fuck bonus episode three. You can be yourself. It didn't bother me.

I get it. Totally get it. Yeah, it was fine. I knew it wasn't doing anything for me, but I knew it wasn't going to hurt me in any way. And now we have a fun cocktail story. That's great. Yeah, no, I... Oh, man. Yeah, but I know... The gayest... Yeah, the gayest I get is when I tell women that they smell nice. What?

sometimes I feel real gay when I'm, when I'm, but I just like, I get like kind of intoxicated. Like when a woman smells really good, like, and it's like, has to be all the things coming together, like perfume and shampoo. And like, there's just some women who just like, when I give them a hug, hello. And I always, they smoke and I say it. And then I just feel like I go, that was pretty gay. Yeah. That's the, that's the guys you get. I think so. I get way gay on a daily basis. Um,

And then I worry when I say that I was like, was that inappropriate to say that? No. Because if a man said that to me, I'd be like, ew, it's disgusting. If a straight guy said that to you, if a gay guy said that to you, different vibe. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, man. All right. The common narrative about gay relationships and gay life, Ward writes, is that it's a difficult path. And she admits it certainly can be hard, but she believes – okay. So the cards are fully stacked together. We did this. Okay. So her work seeks first to locate the root of the problem.

Is it in the customs and rituals of heterosexuality? The way that it's been marketed and sold in particular cultures? Is it in individual choices, ones we can control? She also hopes her work can somehow lead the way to a better future.

We have decades of evidence coming out of feminist research that heterosexuality often fails women, she told me. Her wife, a high school teacher, was in the bedroom on a Zoom call. Their teenager was off somewhere playing video games. It promises things that it doesn't deliver, she said. That's for sure. And now we also know that it's popular for straight women to talk about this.

that so for me the big question is is talking about the problem actually going to do anything to address it great question love that question love that question very left question to consider that she likened heterosexual heterosexual love to eating disorders that sounds right wait I

Can you teach a student to see the cultural conditions that are leading that student to hate their body and help support them to make a different set of choices, she asked. Yes, absolutely. I think that happens all the time. Ward is a product of her own hetero-pessimism, in a way. She grew up in Whittier, a suburb of Los Angeles. Her mom, a hippie, stayed at home taking care of Ward and her brother. Her dad, a firefighter, struggled with substance abuse. Aww.

They divorced when she was 12. Ward dated boys in high school and college and considered herself straight until grad school when she broke up with her boyfriend and hooked up with her female best friend. In terms of pure attraction, she felt bisexual, but the more she considered it, the more she thought, why would I ever settle for people who I don't have basic understanding

value alignment with that's what I'm which is most men that's what I'm fucking saying so my friend the other day yeah my friend said to me the other day who's dated both men and women I've known her for many many years since I was a little girl and I and I I just said to her I hadn't seen her in a long time I said oh I was like who you dating these days like men or women and she's like yeah she's like I pretty much only date women these days I haven't dated a man in many years and

And she just looked at me and she goes, yeah, I just thought to myself, I can't imagine going on vacation with a man. Ew. And I was like, and that resonated with me so deeply. That sentence right there is the closest cell to lesbianism that I've ever gotten. She just totally, I just can't imagine going on vacation with a man. Ew. And I said, I hear you.

I really hear you. And I don't know what type of travel agency you'd like to open, but I will donate money. Yeah. Well, that's why I also date guys that are kind of gay. Like, not like they don't, they're not bi. I mean, I wish they were. Oh God, that'd be fun. Yeah. But they're like a little gay. Cause I like that. Like, I like, I like them to be a little girly. Not that gay and girly are the same thing as they are two totally different. Well, I like a man, a straight man who will gossip. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's why I have – honestly, like, I was thinking about this. You were telling me about a person you know possibly hooking up with a person that we know. And I was like, whew, that's great. And I was, like, very, like, mm-mm. That's, like – and I'm like, wow. I am, like, actively attracted to gay men. I am. Like, I have active crushes on them because they're a man, but they feel like they have –

compassion and like they're fun and like a gay guy who's super effeminate. Um, I have such crushes on those types of guys. Yeah. Um, yeah, because they embody like they are man and I do obviously it's still attracted to men, but like they embody this like comfortability that I don't think exists with a straight guy. And I, and I think a lot of it is because our culture has bent over backwards to cater to the worst type of straight sexual male sexuality that it's like we've spoiled straight men and they're cunts.

Yeah. Yeah, we have. There's like a couple who exist who like have empathy. Of course. And those are to be treasured and respected and adored. But oh my God, the amount of times I have great men in my life, great straight men in my life. The amount of times I've heard them talk about a woman's body in a way that I'm like, and you're so fucking ripped. Yeah. What? Yeah. What? Well, it's I mean, it's the it's the Homer Simpson wearing the no fat chicks. Yeah. Yeah.

Chosen, she told me, was not exactly the right word for the life she'd ended up with. It was more that she had cultivated queerness. Write this down, Christina. Ward met her wife, Kat, in the early aughts when both were living in L.A. and Ward was performing with a queer burlesque troupe called the Miracle Whips. Sounds so fucking fun. I would fucking love that life.

Let me support you, girl. Kat was in the audience at one of the shows and approached her after. I basically lived a double life, Ward said. By day, she drove an hour to UC Riverside where she was an assistant professor of sociology teaching undergraduates and where her colleagues knew nothing of her evenings dancing in pink ruffled bloomers under the name Virginia Dentata. You know, like the mythic toothed.

vagina. Oh, okay. Ward's ideas about straight culture began to come into focus a few years later after she gave birth to her and Kat's child. On leave from Riverside, she was now in the gender and sexuality studies department. She found herself desperate for connection. I was losing my mind, she said. She joined a mom's club, a national support group for at-home moms,

that has chapters around the country, and an embarrassingly normative solution. As a token lesbian in many of the small group meetups, Ward seemed to draw women toward her for straight confession. Their romantic relationships with men were characterized by resentments over the crushing unequal division of domestic labor, over their husband's infidelities, over so many emotional needs unmet.

It was actually kind of heartbreaking. She told me as word would write later, the straight culture she observed was lied on blind acceptance that women and men do not need to hold the other gender in high esteem as much as they need each other as they, as much as they need, sorry, as much as they need to need each other. Okay. And to learn how to compromise and suppress their disappointment in one. Yeah. You know, I'm very against the word compromise. Um,

Corinne Vermeer. Corinne Vermeer. At the time, Ward had a personal blog where she wrote about parenting, raising chickens in her backyard, and on occasion, feminist parenting books. In 2011, she tapped out a post titled, It's Not That It Gets Better, a nod to the It Gets Better queer mantra of the time. It's that heterosexuality is worse. Girl, I agree. Laying out the thesis that would come to drive her work.

Absorbing straight women's private complaints and teaching women's studies courses year after year, continually revisiting the facts of domestic violence, rape, inequities and child rearing and the home marital unhappiness and antipathy had made it very clear straight women's lives, she wrote, are very, very hard. Yes. Yes.

For a blog spot that usually reached a few thousand L.A. moms, the post went viral and it soon made its way to other academics who began to offer their thoughts in the comments. Some said they were assigning it to their students. Ward already had a book project in the works, her 2015 title, Not Gay, about sexual encounters between self-identified straight men. Oh, interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. But she knew a critique of hetero relationships had to be next.

As she began digging into the new work, she noticed she would often avoid telling people what she was studying. It was embarrassing to tell straight people, she said, because they were going to feel immediately judged. Oh, darn. And it was embarrassing to tell queer people because they were going to be like, why are you spending time on this? Don't straight people already take up enough space? Again.

Very liberal. These are obviously conversations about liberal spaces because no one is happy. In reality, both theoretical sides were right. Straight culture did already consume a lot of space. It was the default in government policies and health care and Hollywood and everything else. True. That was precisely why she thought it deserved real academic scrutiny. Yes. And she was judging straight people gently as she saw it. Interesting.

In the book, Ward is careful to assure readers that her analysis is not really about heterosexuals themselves, that it's not even really about heterosexual sex. She points Riley to studies that show many straight women actually find penises unattractive and prefer to gaze at naked women when given the option. But is that because he internalized like we've internalized a male gaze?

I agree women are more beautiful to look at than men. I'd rather look at a penis than a pussy, though. Yeah, me too. Me too. When it comes to like actual just genitals. Yeah. Because that David Beckham ad, it was recent. Oof. Hello. I think women, I'd rather look at women clothed than men. Kitties are great, though. But I really like looking at men. I think just a lot of times like men are like, like a man who takes care of himself naked. Oh.

It's pretty good. Really good. Pretty good. Yeah. Her criticism she stresses is, I think I was just being too inclusive previously. Totally.

Her criticism, she stresses, is of the ever-present sexism, how it's embedded in even the most liberated, loving heterosexual situations. The tragedy of heterosexuality came out in the fall of 2020 when a generation of working women were about six months into being pushed back into their homes to care for their children during COVID. It took a while for the book to reach a mainstream audience, but over time, word began hearing from women

who told her she'd articulated precisely what they were feeling. I'm leaving my husband, a childhood friend she hadn't spoken to in 35 years, DM'd her, wondering if Ward had any tips for how she could meet women. A reality TV producer suggested that Ward could star in

Peggy's great.

She was open to the first project, though it didn't materialize. As time has gone on, the cultural landscape has seemed to confirm Ward's perspective more and more. Recently, she's been amused to learn that Gen Z has a hashtag that refers to compulsory heterosexuality, the idea that women are socially conditioned to be straight, a concept she'd been teaching for years.

originated by adrian rich absolutely signs you might be experiencing hashtag compet according to tiktok uh the people's dsm word jokes include confusing attractiveness with attraction seeking male validation and liking the idea of a boyfriend but not the boyfriend himself that i've suffered from that last one i've suffered from that last one

When we spoke, data had just come out showing that more and more people are identifying as queer. According to Gallup, nearly one in 10 adults in the U.S. identifies as LGBTQ+, and the increases have been driven in large part by young people and by bisexual women. I asked Ward what she made of those figures.

That's just so fascinating, she said, because it's like, well, do you think something's in the water? I mean, what is that? That sounds Republican. Or is it possible that young people are choosing another way? She knew she couldn't really use the data to assess attitudes toward heterosexuality. It was too much of an extrapolation. One thing we could measure, though, Ward said, is how much women are complaining and they're complaining a lot.

A few weeks later, I joined Ward's class again, this time over Zoom, right as she was explaining that heterosexuality is never just about sex. There's a whole ideological apparatus that gets built around it. Another word for ideological apparatus, she said, might simply be culture. And straight culture could be seen everywhere. It's there on T-shirts for grooms to be that proclaim game over. It's in the

when women reward their male partners with...

with oh i never even heard of this it's in the chore play when women reward their male partners for sex for doing basic household tasks that's weird um so i know that i didn't know that had a name but i know knew that that happened it's in the way that young men joke that pleasuring a woman or expressing too many feelings or simply liking your girlfriend too much is gay uh at ucsb they call it uh that a simp a student named charlotte told me later yeah everyone knows simps come on

imagining themselves as straight people in such a world, it would be hard not to despair. In fact, the varieties of hetero despair were a conversation unto themselves. There was broad hetero pessimism, but there was also the specific grief of straight women who want to improve their relationships with men, but fail to see their problems as

as part of a much larger system. Without that recognition, Ward explained, they were doomed to fail again and again. They might turn to the heterosexual repair industry, the world of self-help texts, conferences, and coaching that frame trouble in straight relationships as individual failings of personality and perspective and often encourage women, ultimately, to double down on traditional gender roles or, as Esther Perel has advised, to switch up the same old tired nightgown.

Oh, okay. So our tactic here of just blaming men as a group is actually progressive. Yeah. Good job. I knew it. Heterophatalism, on the other hand, was the grief that comes from seeing the larger picture, from knowing that the whole institution is rigged against women. Heteroresignation, gosh, I like that, described one possible outcome of fatalism, giving up and giving in. Women who surrendered in this way might be struck dealing with normative violence

male, uh, alexithymia, the straight male inability to articulate emotions in words. What? They might come across their share of emotional gold diggers, men who need their female partner to be their lover, mother, best friend, and therapist. I've wanted you about that for years. Emotional gold. I love it.

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I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little OCD. I like things neat. That's not OCD. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have OCD. Actual OCD causes relentless unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy.

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If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit NoCD.com to schedule a free 15-minute call and learn more. That's NoCD.com. So women were damned if they knew, damned if they didn't, and damned if they stayed. But what if they went? In straight studies first class, Ward had referred to what she called the uncanny attachment.

People have to heterosexuality, a topic she also discusses at length in her book. They return, she writes, often after no end of complaint or disappointment, straight back to their original form. She pointed out that typically when there is a general consensus that something is flawed or disappointing, like the service at a business, say a restaurant or like a product, maybe a car, the people responsible try to fix it.

And if it isn't improved sufficiently, patrons and consumers reject it. We consider it failed and move on. Of course, heterosexually is not quite as easily replaced as yet another natural wine bar or a cyber truck. Wasn't heterosexuality as immovable a condition as homosexuality? However immovable that really was. The idea of a helpless return to straight partnership sounded pathetic, at least sad,

Great movie. Angela Bassett.

Angela Bassett was pictured walking toward the camera in a white blazer over a black lace corset as a white BMW erupts and flames behind her. The second image was a still from the album length video that accompanied Beyonce's Lemonade 21 years later in 2016. Best album of all time, Courtney Warren's song. From the portion that paired with the song Hold Up. My favorite Beyonce song.

Beyonce in a tiered yellow dress by Roberto Cavalli. We also we all know that one. Oh, yeah, which was some speculated was intended to evoke the Yoruba deity of love is seen mid strut holding a baseball bat moments after smashing a car window as another car burns behind her. Both characters, Ward explained, had been wronged by their men. She asked the class what they thought the

point might be of looking at the two photos together one student offered that it might be to show the exasperation of these problems for black women specifically in part ward replied black women have often come to represent the survival she added air quotes here of enduring bad men but what else because another student suggested it's not just like a recent thing but like a reoccur

uh, recurring historical thing. Exactly. It's like nothing has changed. Yeah. Yes. Ward said banging her hand on a desk because this shit happens over and over and over with every generation. Every generation of women has their, uh, uh,

epiphanic moment where they realize this shit is not worth it. Every generation of women has the icon who burns all the man's stuff. And so part of the tragedy is we don't learn. We was interesting here. If some women could learn and learning meant leaving men behind, Ward was one of them. But you know, what about everyone else? Later, I pressed Ward on this and all this serious study, uh,

Hey, I choose gay. Yeah.

I want to think that the compulsion is like, well, I'm attracted to men, she said. And if that's real, then great. But too often, she says, when she asks women why they are with men, she gets some version of a blank stare. Girl, amen. In other words, in Ward's view, there is a lot of hashtag comp het.

This, of course, still left the question, what about real heterosexual women? It seemed fair to assume that they exist. Ultimately, the way I will measure success is not whether all of these young women become lesbians, Ward said, laughing. Navigating the structural problems of heterosexuality could look like choosing to partner with women, or it could look like telling your husband you are going to have to do your part.

The structure itself would only ever change, she said, if a critical mass of women chose one or the other or both. And like, you know, that's that's why that's what I did. I did the second one. I just kept dumping people until someone fucking showed up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the last chapter of her book, Ward argues, as she would in the last class of the semester, that women who continue to be with men should consider taking a cue from queer people and consciously build new rules and rituals and

It's not a new concept. Feminists proposed it at least as far back as the 70s and in the 90s, the feminist writer Naomi Wolf, a heterosexual, before she fell off into conspiracy theory land, proposed what she called radical heterosexuality.

In Will's vision, women needed to first become financially independent, and we've talked about that ad nauseum here, and therefore free to leave. Marriage, at least the kind presided over by the state, would be abolished in favor of something more like queer commitment rituals. Gay marriage was not yet legal, and straight men would be mandated to disavow their patriarchal privilege. Good luck. Both men and women...

would need to reject their gender imprinting. That is their erotic investment in traditional roles, whatever that meant. Ward's version of the concept is called deep heterosexuality. For straight women who want to begin down this road, the first step, she says, is having to answer the same questions that gay people have been forcibly confronted with for so long. What propels them toward the opposite sex, despite all the difficulty? And what does being straight do for them? Not a good question.

The prodding half ribbing was maybe in some ways another sidestep and weren't straight women, as Ward's work observed, subjecting themselves to this all the time. But her students were on board. One thing that made me determined to take this class, said Allen, a psychology and brain science major originally from China, was that it seems to me like a comeback.

Alan is gay and his parents don't know he's working toward an additional major in feminist studies. Yes, Alan. A comeback, Ward asked. What did he mean? It's a comeback because people have been researching and studying homosexuality for so long, he said. And now it's us using their methods and analytical tools to study them. I love that.

What a gay ending. That's great. But yeah, okay. Sorry, I didn't know that was going to take up so much time. No, it's okay. It was a really interesting article and I've been like putting a lot of articles aside that I thought were

could lead to larger conversations on this show. But I really liked that. The headline drew me in, but then it actually delivered. Yeah, yeah. And it's a concept that I think about all the time. For sure. And I think one of the things that's frustrating, it reminded me as you were reading, of being in a straight relationship is that, and why one of the many ideas of why being in a gay relationship, a same-sex relationship, feels so appealing and you feel more seen

It's because straight men are not curious about a woman's experience. Right, right, right. Yeah. And that sucks. Mm-hmm. That sucks. It doesn't feel good. You want to fuck me, but you're not like, how does she feel? You know? Yeah. I'm generalizing here, but like, that's the vibe I've been getting this whole time. Yeah. And so I think it's like up to us as women to just not accept men who are not curious

curious about us if we want to remain heterosexual or just explore other options if we, you know, don't, don't. And I think, you know, both, both are available. Yeah.

We just got to stop taking that shit. You just, yeah, I know, you know, in every relationship I've ever had, uh, you know, I've gone through my evolutions and peaks and valleys, but like the second I, I feel it and I feel them feel it. I feel the, whoever I'm with, feel it. When I take, I, I'm so invested in the person I'm with. I'm so curious about that. I'm so like, you know, I'm just, I'm into them. But the second I take that away, I could do it in two seconds. They go, well,

They come towards me and I'm like, that's fucking annoying. But it also, yeah. You just got to act like a cunt the whole time. It like shouldn't take that, you know? Right. You shouldn't, you shouldn't have to be like, we shouldn't have to make these like big threats to men to make them care or show up for us in relationships. And yeah. And what this article is saying, it's like, yeah, the days of threats are over. Just stop.

being with the person that does that to you. Yeah. And again, like, yeah, just don't, yeah, don't like, again, like the show has been so interesting to do for all these years, but at a certain point, um,

I definitely wanted to talk about other things because I'm just actually done putting the energy into trying to fix these heterosexual relationships or really any relationships. But I just think if you're putting that much work into relationships, I don't know. I feel like there's other things to put work into. Totally. It doesn't need to just be that.

Guys, thanks for listening. We did a little college course today. Yeah, I love that. I love learning. I love higher education. Me too. Vote for Corinne. Donate to our campaign if you're an American citizen. And if you're an English citizen, come see me in London this weekend. Two options. Or come see me. I'm going to Edmonton, Vancouver, Phoenix, and Minneapolis. They might join the EU. Four dates too. Where are the dates, Eric? Look at my Instagram. The link in the bio. I don't have them up right now. It'll be spring.

May through July. May through July. Okay. Well, July is summer. Yeah. So is June. Jesus Christ, Eric. First day of summer is the 21st of June. Yeah. It's late June is the first day of summer. Oh, really? Yeah. Technically. But I agree with you that I think June is summer. All right. Great time was had. I really killed the energy. No. We set you up for a failure. Yeah, we did. On purpose. It was fun. That was us. It was fun for us. That's why you're here. I'll just cut all this. No. No. Keep it in.

Guys, thank you so much for being a Luminary subscriber. Yes, go see Christina in London April 4th and 5th, you said? Yeah, baby. April 4th and 5th. At the Top Secret Comedy Club. Top Secret Comedy Club. CorinneFisher.com to donate and sign up to volunteer. We're getting into canvassing. And it's nice weather right now. So if you want to go out on the streets of New York and talk about our campaign, we would love to have you.

you know, it's, you're just going to hand out like palm cards and stuff. It's fun times. Uh, yeah, but this has been, uh, guys, we fucked the anti slut shaming bonus podcast. And we'll talk to you when we talk to you. Thank you so much. Bye guys. We fucked is presented by luminary created and hosted by Corinne Fisher and Christina Hutchinson editing and music coordination by Eric Freddie theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake Cosen. So beautiful.

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