YOU CAN’T SAY THE WRONG THING TO THE RIGHT GUY? ft. Lily Womble
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Toronto, Canada, what is up? This is Christina Hutchinson here. I'm going to be headlining the Comedy Bar in Danforth, which is near Toronto. It's the closest airport. On Friday, January 17th and Saturday, January 18th. I cannot wait to see you there. For tickets, click the link in my Instagram bio at Christina Hutch. Welcome to Guys We Fuck, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. I'm Christina Hutchinson. I'm Corinne Fisher. Slutty, you're horny, and you're shamed.

Hey, you with a slot? Yes. Okay. Let's talk about fucking.

Greetings, people of Earth who listen to podcasts. How are you? Welcome to another rousing, exciting, entertaining, and educational episode of Guys We Hugged. Yes, it's the anti-slut-shaming podcast, 2025 edition. Happy New Year. I'm Corinne Fisher. I'm Christina Hutchinson. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the year. Welcome to our year. Hope you made it.

I think you did. Some of us did not. Yeah, that's not good. That's not, we'll get to that later. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we made it, but a couple of days, so. Yeah. Not the trajectory we wanted. Nope. You know, not what we wanted. Nope. Nope. Guys, stay safe.

Okay. If you want to email us, it's sorryaboutlastnightshow at gmail.com. Today's subject line is 10 dates too long. How do I talk about size? Is 10 dates too long for what? 10 dates is a relationship. Yeah. Hi, Kurt and Christina. Yeah. We live together. Lately, I've been trying this thing where I am upfront about the fact that I don't want to sleep with a guy right off the bat. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

Even stating sex love addiction as the reason. Okay. Well, that's good. It's not that I have too much sex or I'm addicted to porn. It's that I move too fast because I get high off the brain chemicals that are released at the prospect of a new sexcapade. I mean, that's bad. So do I. I,

Yeah.

You fucked my dog? Ew. Well, you didn't fuck him. You just dated him for a year. Kevin and I were seeing each other about three times a week, but I had gone on a trip in between. So after six dates, we had been seeing each other for three weeks. On our sixth date, he came over and we both got a little drunk, but he was drinking 9% ciders and had about five of them. Five!

Shit, that's a lot. I know boys can handle more. Hopefully he's tall. That's a lot of calories. Yeah, it's true. So he was pretty drunk by the end, which became off-putting because he grew increasingly handsy as the night went on. Ew, gross. I kept my boundaries in a nice way, but finally he said to me that he might lose interest after 10 dates.

I said that I feel pressured and he quickly backtracked. I said that I have a sexual assault in my history and would like to feel comfortable telling him about that before we have sex. That makes sense. I'm also not disclosing everything about myself right off the bat these days. Ooh, good tactic.

And I think that's a sign of progress. Please keep in mind, I love sex and want a healthy sexual relationship. And I'm upfront about that too. I just want to take things slow for many reasons. One being that I don't like using condoms. Okay. And before you go any further, I hear you about the sex, but like when you say take things slow, seeing each other three times a week in the early stages of dating is not taking things slow. You can't compartmentalize only the sexual aspect.

of relationship and say you want to take things slow but then hang out three times a week that's very confusing and it's a mixed message to yourself and to the person you're dating so it's like you still have this like obsessive addiction part of your brain working but you're just like but I'm not having sex it's like good eye Karim good eye I didn't even think about that but you're totally right the thing I haven't mentioned to you is that for our fifth date we went to the sauna in his building uh oh

I thought that getting half naked would get us an inch closer to sex without crossing any lines. Dude, I'd be so pissed if I went on a date and we went in a sauna and I wanted to fuck the guy and then he was like, no, but I can't yet. I think you might need to spend more time with straight men like just like to get to understand how their brains work because they're

I, as a woman, I understand how your brain is working, but it's, it's the complete antithesis of the male brain. You're torturing this guy. We had kissed bunch and cuddled at this point, but I noticed throughout the night that perhaps his package was a little smaller than I hoped, but he didn't take his pants off. And also there's growers and showers. That's unfair. Uh, I also can't get it out of my mind that nose length is a correlation to size more than feet. Stop reading memes. Stop reading memes.

Girl, no, it's not. Stop it. It's not. That's not true. Stop reading these. Do you know how many button-nose-ish guys I fucked with giant wangs? Oh, my God. If I had a nickel. So fast forward again to our sixth date when he said that he might lose interest after 10 dates if I didn't sleep with him. I get that from his point of view. I'd say that to a guy, honestly. I immediately got the ick. But let's say I decided to sleep with him and his dick was small.

Yeah, you're all over the place here. I'm not really sure. It's like you want respect, but you're really not giving it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's you're putting your eggs in the wrong basket perhaps. Can you look – and also while we're reading the rest of this, can you look up this correlation between nose size and – I've never heard that. Because I need to see if there's any validity to that. I thought it was hands and feet. Eric, don't get the answer from your brain. Get the answer from something that says .edu. Okay.

I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure how to navigate a conversation about that, especially with someone who I don't even know yet. How do you not know him yet? You've hung out with him six times. I mean, look, I know you get to know each other as the relationship progresses, but like, you know, a little. Get to know him better. Yeah. Are you not asking the right questions? Also, if you're getting drunk every time, both of you or one of you are getting drunk every time you're hanging out. Yeah. Okay. You're not really getting to know each other, but that's on whoever's drinking too much.

Did she say how old she is? I was like, this is like a twenties level getting to know because I was like, she doesn't say at 39 I can talk to someone for, I don't know, 15 minutes and know if they're going to be a possible life partner. Oh, the every first day I've ever been on the second we sit down, I know if it's a yes or no. Yeah. And then if it's a no, I'm like the whole day and I'm like, okay, what brainstorm and what, what's a good excuse? I took literally, I took literally a car ride with my boyfriend and I was like, oh, this, this will do. Yeah.

I kind of felt like he was so eager to sleep with me, but it might be a huge disappointment. Yet that's the risk you take when you fuck somebody. Oh, also here's the penis to nose correlation. Here are the metrics. Sorry. I really stopped you. All right. Yes. The damage is done. Train already out of the station. Nose size is a significant predictor of penile size. Penile. What? Yeah. Yeah.

That's not true. Where is this from? This is from Google's AI. Oh, dude. Don't use Google AI. That's been wrong. Google AI was programmed by a man. There's a health institute right here. With a big nose. Here's a peer-reviewed article from the National Library of Medicine. Okay, that I'll trust. Yes, what does that say?

This says, this is a very long. Conclusions, nose size was a significant predictor of penile size. Oh. Size of penises and nose decreased in EMI. Now we're talking width? Like how far does it jut out? It's length and circumference.

Length and circumference. Oh, length. Okay. There's a lot of metrics here. The second guy we ever had on this podcast, Nico, that wasn't his real name, had a tiny nose, giant wing, just beautiful. Coke can, loved it. I mean, that's the same with like... Should we put these metrics up on the... Yeah, he has a very small nose and he had a big old hawk.

Should we put these metrics up? Although, I mean, I guess Steven had a big hog and he had a big nose. So, okay, in my head... It's hit or miss. The guys who have big noses that I've slept with, yes, all did have big penises, but then a lot of people who had small noses also had big penises. Stop bragging. So... We get it. You've never fucked a small guy. No, I have. I know you have. I'm thinking of it in my head.

Okay, anyway, back to this email. So, okay, you're right. Sorry for making fun of you. I really thought that was poor shit. Also, according to my experience, it is kind of horse shit, but I don't know. So far, I have slept with three people who are on the smaller side. I can't feel it. That sucks. With one of them, I used a toy to finish myself off, and he seemed annoyed. Well, that's fucking rude, because let me tell you something. If you have a tiny penis... You can't have an attitude. You can't have an attitude. I mean, I...

God. I assumed you also knew that, but silly me. But there's so many things that you can do with the other appendages, with your tongue, with your – come on, guys. Come on. And if you have a tiny penis and you get offended that a woman is using a vibrator – Yeah.

Shame on you. Okay? Shame has a purpose. Use it for real. Okay. I can't feel it. With one of them, I used a toy to finish myself off. He seemed annoyed. I'm sorry, but any dick can't do the same job my vibrator can. So can we just start the conversation there? No. That's not a good way to start the conversation. That's not going to get the guy excited. No.

sex with you. Just so you know, this is going to be nowhere near the times I spent with myself. Could you imagine if a guy said that to you? You'd be so hurt.

Don't do that. We got to remember guys have feelings too. I think we forget. What if he was like, listen, you have a small rack, so I'm going to bring a female friend to motorboat while I stick my penis in you. You know how they have like those torsos that are sex toys for guys? If they have just like tits, that's a sex toy for guys. Look, I can't titty fuck those, so I got to titty fuck this guy.

half woman that I bought at Babeland. Okay. Like advocating for yourself is not being a cunt. And I know I've led sometimes the people of this podcast down the wrong road. And I've been confusing. Hey, hey, we're all figuring ourselves out in real time. Okay. Sorry. Also to like, well,

For progress to happen in an area of society, the pendulum always swings too hard in the opposite direction. And I have noticed not a ton, but enough. Yeah. Pretty consistent that women are standing up on this pedestal to stand up for themselves in a situation that's not it's not called for. It's just not called for. You're trying to be virtuous and actually you're being an asshole to the guy. So like, hey, let's take some self-responsibility wherever we can.

I'm sorry, but any dick can't do the same job as my vibrator can. So can we just start the conversation here? I also feel like sometimes the anticipation is better than the sex. Is 10 dates too long to wait? I waited three and a half months with one guy, but I think he might have been gay. So that's probably too long. Girl, just because you wait, I don't know. Well, maybe you have other reasons you're not telling us. And how do you talk about small dick size at any stage of a relationship? You don't. Thanks. Love you guys.

Girl. You're an example of the pendulums. You're going to sit a man down and say, listen. If a guy sat you down and goes, how wide is your cervix? How wide is it? Because I don't know, man. You would be appalled. There would be articles on Jezebel about it. We can't do that to men. We need to treat people how we want to be treated. Yeah. And the person knows they have a small penis. You don't need to point it out to them. Yeah.

They know. That's the thing. Whatever appendage you're born with and then you grow up and you witness the appendage grow as however it's going to grow, you know what size it is. I know what size my tits are.

You don't think a guy knows what size his penis is? Guys are obsessed with their penis. They know what size it is. And I'm also confused because you're doing all this waiting until it feels right with someone, but then when you're explaining what you want, it seems like you just want to get railed by a guy with a big dick. Which is it? I think it's that one. Yeah. I think that's the one you want. And also, too, I don't know if you're in therapy for the sexual assault, but you also want to be in a place that like,

you know, starting a sexual relationship with somebody you haven't slept with before feels safe. Obviously getting to know them through the dates is one way to feel safe for sure. Regardless of if you have sexual assault or, you know, in your past or not. But you also need to make sure that you're right with that trauma. Right. So like that's, that's work. And I don't know if you've done that work or not. You don't say in the email, but you know, if you have a history of that, that's something to work on within yourself. And then sure. I think sharing it with the guy, you know,

I don't know. Yeah, I can totally see wanting to share that with a guy if it's something that still affects you when you get sexual for the first time with a person. But then I'm like, does that mean you shouldn't be sexual yet because you should do some more inner work? I don't know. I don't know. You know the answer to that question. Yeah. And also, like, I understand that you're trying to, like, have these, you know, three dates a week so that you can get to know someone more quickly. You can also talk on the phone. But to me, and, like, text and stuff, but, like, to me, like,

Any guy who's willing to meet with you three times a week does not have enough going on.

And also like kind of is probably some sort of a love bomber. Like when, unless you're like 21, you should not in the beginning stages of dating someone have three days a week available to give to them. Yeah. That's a red flag. Also, both of you, now that I'm thinking about it, every person I've ever slept with the first time, I didn't know him that well. Yeah. I didn't know him that well.

And you get to know them even like even when you're in a long term relationship and you've been dating for a year and then you decide to move in. You still learn stuff about each other. So that's why I say maybe you haven't worked on the trauma from the sexual assault because our bot your body is fucking brilliant and we're

As you go on, I would say two, three dates tops, you should have some type of feeling of, hey, is this person – do I vibe with this person? Do I like this person? Do I respect them so far? Obviously stuff can change. You can learn information along the way. But to me that's saying your spidey senses are a little muted sometimes.

Yeah. In this category. Yeah, because you're also saying like, oh, I feel like then the anticipation is more exciting than the actual sex. It's like, well, maybe you're waiting too long for you too. Three and a half months when you're an adult, I mean, unless you're saving yourself for a marriage, no one's going to wait that long. No matter how fantastic you are and no matter how fantastic they are. And I got to be honest. Three and a half months, I would never wait that long. I would not wait three and a half. I don't even know if I wait a month. Yeah. That's me. Three and a half months. Three and a half, like...

I mean, I've had sex with a prostitute that I met that night. Right. It was fantastic. Christina, we're saying full service sex work right now. Really? Full service? You've got to say full service? Someone give me a moment. Well, actually – Well, because I – I know words are revolving. I went on a rant on Without a Country about how much –

from like a comedian's perspective because, you know, like we're just obsessed with words. And I was like, prostitute is a great word, right? I can't say sex worker on stage at a comedy show. Well, and also sex worker doesn't give you enough information. So I said, how do we, like, I was like, sex worker, I was like, is a wide spectrum. And so I went on this really long rant and then someone nicely emailed me that the correct terminology was full service sex worker. That's how you know that you can get sex.

Okay. Actual sex. Okay. Right, right. The full service part I kind of like. That's kind of fun. Yeah, it's cute. It's like a gas station. Exactly. I like that part. How can I service you, ma'am? But I really do think that like maybe we should just bring back the word prostitute and like the way we brought back the word slut because it's one of the best words the English language has to offer. And it's the oldest job in the history of the world. The oldest profession. Extremely respected. Prostitutes. I love that word. No one's brought down more politicians. I love it.

That's true. That's true. Watch literally any documentary. How cool would it be if a politician was just honest if they've engaged in services with a sex worker? I'd be like, good for you. The only documentary about a politician that I've watched that did not include a full-service sex worker was the AOC documentary.

What's the theme there? I wonder what the common denominator is. What's the thread here? I wonder. Yeah. So I think you're waiting too long. I think you need to look into your trauma a little bit more just to make sure that you're okay with it. Because yeah, yeah.

Then your sensibilities will come back to you and you won't – I think the way you'll know if like how you've like dealt with the trauma, faced it, really gave yourself space to grieve, to feel whatever it is you feel and then to like move on from your life. However that process is for you, I think once you've done that, you wouldn't ever write this email because you wouldn't be in a space where you're overthinking stuff because there would just be a natural flow.

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Like the one trauma therapist I had, she explained something to me that I thought was so interesting about

When you're traumatized, it's hard for you to engage in a dance of conversation. Every conversation is a dance. We mirror each other's body language. There's a rhythm. And I mean if you listen to guys a couple years ago, you could actively hear me just interrupting everybody left and right because I was just like – I was like about to get electrocuted. That's how like on edge I was. So I think that you'll know what to do once you've resolved that trauma and you won't have a question about like how long should I wait because you'll be able to gauge, well, who's the specific person and how do they make me feel?

Yeah. Hope that helped. That definitely helped, right? All right, guys. I have a solo podcast that's going to be happening for not that much longer, but if you want to listen to it, it's the voices in our heads. And I also have a Patreon that is going to be lasting for a very long time. Patreon.com slash Christina Hutchinson. Once a week, I hold group interviews.

share a pee over zoom, where we just chat about whatever the hell is on our minds. And I have one tonight and it's my fate. I will never quit this cause it's, I look forward to it so much. You end up the zoom session, you close out of the zoom window feeling much more human than you did before. And it's a very, it's validating and it's great that something so simple can give you that great of a feeling. So it's, it's a great space on the internet. Um,

one of the rare good spaces on the internet. So sign up, patreon.com slash Christina Hutchinson. And if you are interested in politics or if you want to get more interested in politics or just kind of know about the world, uh, around you, uh, from a news perspective, check out without a country. It is my weekly news podcast that teaches you how to critically think and how to engage with people who, uh,

think differently about social and political ideas, which I know is a tough pill to swallow, especially come January 20th for some of us. Uh, but you can check that out on YouTube. It's without a country podcast. What's January 20th. Um, you can also, uh, follow that the Instagram for without a country podcast. Um, and there is a Patreon where you get an exclusive video news story every single week. That's patreon.com slash without a country. We have a lot of exciting stuff coming up. Uh,

So I hope you will join that community. And if you are listening to this podcast and you are in the political field, meaning like you work on campaigns or you volunteer Democratic Party only, unfortunately, please email me at withoutacountrypodcasts.gmail.com. I know that was super vague, but... Promise it's worth it, though. We promise it's worth it. If you're located in New York, obviously that's better because...

that's where we are yeah we need boots on the ground how you how you doing you know really what it well you know you know how like they say in manifestation that you're supposed to be very specific yes um and like you know so i i did a lot of manifesting at the beginning of last year and i was very specific and i got exactly what i wanted and like a

But one of the things that I was specific about was I was like, please can no one die this year? And I should have extended that longer. Yeah. Because I only really covered 2024. Oh, you said that at the beginning of 2024. Yeah, because like, I mean, obviously death is a natural part of life. So I didn't feel like I can't be like, no one dies.

Right. But no freak accidents or anyone die before their time. Yeah, I also feel – I just feel like maybe I have to ask of bigger things. And I think this is a note for all women. Like, you know, ask –

ask the biggest thing you can from the universe. Cause it does, it feels like self indulgent to ask for like these huge things, but it's great. I do it all. I love it. I also think dream big. Well, I was also reading more about it and I certainly do dream big, but I was thinking more about it. And I'm like, I think, you know, when you're brought to this planet, like wouldn't,

your maker, whoever that is, want you to do the absolute most you possibly can with the life that you are given. Sure. So anyway, um, yeah, on Friday, uh, I, I got the news that, uh, uh,

A very good friend of mine who's been on this podcast, Mike Froggatt, a core member of my VIGs, which is what I call my gay group, friend group that I talk about often on this show. He passed away in like a really horrific way.

strange accident uh in another country and i've just kind of been like i'm still in shock about it honestly yeah uh yeah and i he was just like wild he's just like a great person he big listener uh to this show like basically you can go back and like for every show he has a comment on like almost every reel yeah came to all of our shows him and his husband he told me recently i'm

because it was their anniversary, I wish them a happy anniversary. And he was like, I don't think you know this, but like one of our first dates ever was to see me and you do Guys Be Fucked at the Bell House. Oh, really? Which was a really spectacular show. That was a great show. And so he's been such a big part of Guys Be Fucked and of my life. And, you know, I've said it before, but I'll say it again. My gay friends...

cared about me when I moved to New York City. They took me under their wing. They made sure I had a community of friends and they really supported my comedy career when no one gave a shit. They were at all the shows. When no one gave a shit. I think you hosted it with Jonesy at the Gay Barn Hell's Kitchen. It was called Free Cocaine. Yeah, Free Cocaine.

Yeah, that was Free Cocaine. But there's also, oh no, you hosted one at the Fairytale Lounge. Oh gosh. Didn't you? That was me and Duff. I don't even remember what we were calling that. Oh right. Because you were out wearing costumes. It was some wild thing. I mean, we had so, yeah, we had so many shows over the years. And if it wasn't for my gay friends coming out consistently, being great audience members, having the money. Because you,

to buy drinks and buy me drinks. I mean, I just, I, I like, I always say without my gay friends, I would be dead in a ditch right now. A hundred percent. Yeah. Um, and so this is like a, just a huge, uh, blow to our friend group. And additionally, he was, did so much, uh,

charity work for, you know, we phone banked for marriage equality and worked together with that group of friends in New York to, you know, get gay marriage passed. And he was a big bike rider for a breaking for AIDS. He would do that every year. He did a lot of work for racial injustice. And just again, all around, like,

active citizen, as I would say on without a country. So that's going to be a huge loss. And I have it in my bio on Instagram. Obviously that's like a very unexpected death. He was only in his early forties, but his husband,

is, you know, not kind of left with all his funeral expenses, which is even more costly when you die out of the country. And when you live in America. So if you have, you know, any extra funds, I do have a GoFundMe link up, but I understand like, it's just so, it's so, I was just thinking of like, it's so crazy now. Like we all turn into a GoFundMe link. Like, is that what life is? When you die, you turn into a GoFundMe link. What a, what a, what a,

larger conversation about for America. Yeah. Like this is what it is. Like someone dies. And the first thing you have to do is worry about putting up a GoFundMe link so that you don't lose your home.

And that, so that you can bury your loved ones. Yeah. I don't even know. How is this the greatest country again? Yeah. I could say stuff. That's great. That is great. I don't take that for granted, but Jesus Christ. But yeah. And yeah, he was on an episode a while back with Jim Coo where he did a highlight and it had gotten written up in some publications, but like, cause they did the HIV test test in my living room. Yeah.

And so he was, you know, just and I was like, that's so aligned with who he is, because he was, of course, on the show to speak about, you know, health care for a community that he did a lot of work for. Yeah. But yeah. Rest in peace. So. Oh, my God. That sucks. Yeah. That's a deep cut right there. That sucks. Again, it's like you don't. What do you do with feelings?

yeah what do you do with them you just you feel them i guess that's it yeah but there's no like there's no comfort with death yeah i guess it's just time yeah it's fucking wild i'm so sorry that's terrible yeah much love to his husband so yeah poor guy could you imagine losing like losing a kid has got to be number one worst loss yeah but then losing your love of your life like i don't know man i don't know if i'd survive that yeah that's crazy um

I saw my friend who I had to go from me link, by the way, thank you everybody for donating to that. Uh, had her baby. Yeah. So the little hands, I do want a baby this week.

Because I watched her fucking handle it like a G. Oh, good. Her birth plan didn't go – it went polar opposite of the way she intended. Yeah. She handled it like a G. She was by herself because the – I mean, she had, you know, she had one – she had a doula. I was going to say, knowing her, she definitely had a doula. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, in the birth, she wanted – didn't, you know –

If she were to give birth at a birthing center, it wouldn't have gone well. So they needed medical interventions because she had... But it was really cool. Her baby was like only five and a half or six pounds. She was so tiny. And when I walked in her apartment, she was breastfeeding her kid. And like somebody...

that you danced on top of bars with in 2006 that like you like did bikini contests with on St. Patrick's day and like fucking the first night ever out in New York city, we both got kidnapped together. Um, never forget that. Like we just have so many memories of us being like hot, hot messes, but we're like 20. So it's okay. Uh, and, and just all of these stages in our lives that we've been together, it was wild to watch her like be a mom and just kill.

kill it. It was really fucking cool. And I just kept staring at that baby. I'm like, damn, this is cool. And it got me thinking. I'm like, man, I'm watching her do this. Obviously, it's hard as shit. Single parents...

You have a very tough job. You have a very tough job and I commend you for the job that you're doing. And especially because the baby daddy, not good, not good. And I really hope I can give you more information on that soon. But it was really cool to watch her just handle motherhood in her apartment and like, you know, burp the baby, feed the breastfeed. And like, it was, it was so cool. And it made me go, fuck it.

If she can do – she's a badass woman and she's done a lot of incredible things in her life. But I'm like, man, she really inspired me because I'm like if you can do this alone, which it is possible, if you are in a situation where you have the father of your baby actively involved and caring and helping you like –

if, if, if it's, if you're able to do it by yourself, doing it with another person has to be a lot more doable, it seems. And I'm like, I could totally have a baby. Oh, so your concern why you might not want to is because you just don't know if you could manage it? Yeah. Oh, I didn't realize that. I was like, I was like, my concern is just like, I didn't, I didn't want it to come out and be like, nah, I didn't really want this. Yeah.

I'm like, can you send it back? Can I return it? Can you send it back like a meal you don't like? Yeah. Do not clip that. Don't clip that. We're joking. It's jokes. We're stand-up comedians. We're joking. Jesus Christ. But yeah, I definitely want a baby this week. So bad. Also, too, I was listening to Esther Perel. Great podcast. Wait, what's it called? It's called...

I don't want to butcher the name. Yeah, where should we begin? Where should we begin? It's a great podcast with Esther Perel and I subscribe to it. I'm a paid subscriber. So if you're a paid Luminary subscriber, thank you. I appreciate that. You only subscribe and pay money for the podcast you really love and hers is one of them. And she was having an – she was talking to this woman. It was a one-time therapy session and she's afraid of turning into her mother and her mother had a lot of –

things that my mom had. And I'm like, and I was, it was a very interesting listen. But she said something in the woman who was being interviewed by Esther said there was this thing going on in her family that I'm like, I think this is pervasive in all, in a lot of cultures and a lot of families. You lose your son, but you keep your daughter. Meaning that when you have kids and you have a son or you have a daughter, if you have both,

The son's going to go up and go out into the world or whatever, but the daughter is always going to be there for you. And the daughter is always going to be there for you to lean on and to get emotional support from. And I was thinking about –

families that I know with both boy and girls, siblings, I'm like, yeah, there is so much more expected of the, of the daughter than the son. Not, not all of them, certainly not all of them. Uh, but I could, I could think of a lot of big examples. So I thought that was interesting. Especially, I mean, if you, if even if you like look up the hashtag, like, um, oldest daughter, like there's like a big, there's a big, a lot of memes about y'all, big oldest daughter community on Instagram, which I'm thankful for because I was like, ah, I thought it was just me. Yeah.

I thought like, I thought it was me. I thought maybe perhaps this was just in my head and I'm like, no, this is like a cultural thing. No, I know. I know all the memes about, uh, oldest daughters. Um, yeah. So I was thinking about that and then I could say the, these other topics for next week cause, uh, it's going to turn into a larger conversation, but yeah. Yeah.

That's what I was thinking. Babies. Death sucks. Birth is cool. Birth is pretty cool. Birth is definitely very cool. Yeah. It's to see a new person that hasn't seen anything yet is just it's her eyes were just like look and I watched her look. I watched the baby look at her my friend and like stare at her from her little cushion on her couch and I was oh I fucking lost it. It was so beautiful. Oh humanity really is. They're really good. We're really good. There's just a lot of shit you know.

I do. I enjoy it. My best friend's kids, I love them. We have a fun time. It's so cool to watch a woman you've known forever become a mom. It's a really rewarding thing to witness. You know what else is also rewarding? Today's guest. Oh, yes. Yeah, you are correct, Corinne. She is sparking a feminist revolution in the way we date and find love, if you're listening to this email writer from earlier. She's one of the top matchmakers in the United States, and she owns a company called Date.com.

Lily Womble

Okay, we are here with dating expert, feminist dating expert, you could say, Lily Womble. Thank you so much for coming to the show. You're the author of Thank You More Please. You have a company called Date Brazen. Is it matchmaking? What is this company? No, it's helping people become their own expert matchmaker. I love that. Yeah, because I started as a matchmaker. I was like setting dates up in New York and I was the third most successful out of 160. It's amazing. It was amazing. Thank you, Bragg.

And then I realized that my own love life was a dumpster fire. So I was like setting dates up and then crying on my boyfriend's bathroom floor. Oh, why? So I was like late bloomer. And what are we talking? Late bloomer. Like 25. Didn't have sex till I was 25. Didn't have a relationship as an adult until then. I felt light years behind my peers because I'm from the South. And by then, most people are like grandkids by 25. Yes. Why a late bloomer in that area?

evangelical. Oh, word evangelical. That one's intense as hell. Oh. No pun intended. Abstinence only, state sanctioned. Oh. Sex education card. Oh, what? A card? Lily. Yeah, seventh grade. We were given a credit card like- Seventh grade. Mm-hmm. And we had to take a sex education quote unquote course where they put, they took two pieces of clear packing tape and the woman-

took the packing tape and was like, look at you before you have sex. Have you ever heard of this? Yeah, and it gets less sticky the more you stick it on. Oh, wait, I actually haven't heard of this. Oh, you haven't heard of that? No. I grew up in Virginia. I heard of that. Where in Virginia? Chesapeake. Okay, great. My husband went to UEA. Yeah, nice. But yeah, you put it on your arm and they're like, this is you having sex. Oh. And then they take it off and they're like, look how dirty you are. Oh. And then they take two pieces and they do the same to both pieces and see if you have sex before marriage, you don't stay together as a couple.

Oh, right. Because the tape doesn't stick to each other. Yeah. Because of this packing tape. And it's so evil to do to children because they're going to believe you because we don't know anything about the world yet. You know, I mean, you have to be a pretty self-actualized child to get that information and go, I don't know why, but that's fucked up and I'm not believing it. Well, and also at the time, I think the statistic in Alabama where I was was or Mississippi. It was, it was this, but it was like 10% of 11 year olds that had sex. Yeah.

Or something like that at the time. Don't quote me. But people are already – we already were learning about sex. So they were teaching us this like – it was just so fucked up. And as that child, I was like, yeah, I'm never going to have sex until I get married. I was very proud of it.

Sure. Right. And then coming into adulthood, like deconstructing my, my religious identity and deconstructing, you know, my, my ideas about sexuality. I was ready to get it in, but like, I didn't know what to do. Right. Yeah. So I was just bumbling around, like going on dates with anybody and being like, you like me, let's go. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I, you know, two different men on two different occasions, uh, I told them like, I want to have, I want to like have fun, but I'm not ready to have sex. And they were like,

officially proposing to take my virginity. And then the next day they changed their mind. Like two different times that happened. I just, yeah, it was very odd. Like I would make out. What did they say? Like, do you remember what they said? Oh yeah. Like I would love to be the one who,

And where were you still in the South? No, I was in New York. Oh. And San Francisco. I mean, taking someone's virginity is rare. I've never done it. Well, in your mid-20s, it's like, you what? Yeah. Right. So I was discerning, like, is this right for me? And then I'd be like, okay, maybe, yeah, let's do it. And then both times, the next, they were like either, they just said, like, I'm not into it anymore. Because I was so emotionally intense. Oh, okay. That's why. But then you were still emotionally intense when they said, I want to do it.

You didn't change chickened out. I have no idea, but I made up a story. Okay. Right. Because of this, because of how I was told as a child that I was too much. My mom told me at age 12 that you were too much. You're too much. You're going to have a hard time finding a husband. Oh,

See, that means you're fun. Yeah, exactly. That means you're a fucking Aquarius. Yeah. It really does. So I carried all that into adulthood. I felt completely behind. I was bumbling around. I was going out with guys that I had no, I shouldn't have been wasting my time with. Yeah. But I ended up in this. Well, good news is you do that even if you aren't raised evangelical Christian, I will say. Yeah, correct. I started getting it in at 15 and my first three years, five years in New York, all that.

Yeah. Well, I think it's pretty universal now I know. Yeah. But I ended up in this relationship where we loved each other, but he said all the right things but did none of the right things, didn't show up for me emotionally, treated me like a burden, said I can't be in a monogamous relationship. I have to be open after deciding to be monogamous. My fave. Oh, God. And I –

Yeah, you're really dating the lowest of the low. Yeah. I was like, okay, I can be open-minded. I can make my list of what non-monogamy looks like. I can do this research and be like, I want to be the primary partner. Wow. Yeah. And then, of course, he didn't want an actual relationship. He just wanted the benefit of, yeah, he wanted to fuck me. He wanted a fuck buddy. And he wanted my emotional availability. Exactly. But I didn't want any. That's even worse. I'm like, use me for my body, but not for my emotional. Yeah.

Yeah. Not for my brain. Don't use me for my brain. You don't deserve that. I needed money in New York. I found this side hustle as being a matchmaker. Like these firms hire people. I know. So back to the matchmaking thing. I want to know how you get into the business of matchmaking. I'm very fascinated by this occupation. Okay. So there are big firms out there that are basically like tech companies that are also matchmaking companies. Weird. E. Jean Carroll.

Oh, yes. Know her well. Founded the company that I worked for. Wow. Are you serious? Yeah. I met her a couple times. You met her? Oh, cool. Was she cool? She was cool. She's been through some shit. Really creative and fascinating and warm and all these things. And she was in New York, like an older woman in New York. Oh, yes. Yes.

Probably has cool glasses and fucking chunky costume jewelry. Always chunky costume. I'm going to be that woman when I'm older. So I, they hire people who just like our friend, like referrals. And then it's a sink or swim job. You don't have much, um, training. It's just sort of like, are you emotionally intelligent? Can you pick it up on the job? Here's like two weeks of training. Go after it, set up some dates. And I tried for a year. I was doing okay, but it wasn't until like year two that I hit my stride. And I was just really good at,

asking people the right questions, really hearing what they meant beneath their responses. Men and women? Men and women. I had over a thousand phone calls with potential dates for my clients. Oh, cool. And I had to get really good at asking the deeper questions that gauge whether or not someone was emotionally available and ready. And I talked to some abhorrent men. Let's go. What did you hear that sticks with you? One of my favorite questions to ask, and I put this in my book, Thank You More Please, of like,

qualifying, disqualifying questions to gauge whether or not somebody's right or wrong for you. Okay. Because in the words of Dr. Maya Angelou, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. So just like ask them the right questions, see their answer. Ask this man who is a New Yorker in his 50s. I'm trying to set up a woman in her 50s.

And I say like, what made you laugh hardest lately? This is a really telling question to see what comes to mind. That's a great question. Yeah, I love that. As stand-up comedians, we love that. Yeah. Yeah. And this man's answer, like some people's answer was like, I love re-watching The Office. Fine. Oh, my nephews are so funny. Like you're looking for these deeper things. He said, oh yeah, I know. I was on a boat last week with my son and our friends and a group of fat women in bikinis. I knew it was going to be something like this. Drove by. Oh my God. And I said to the group, baby got back?

And I wanted to vomit bile. So what made him laugh was something derogatory towards women and his own joke. Uh-huh. Okay.

Oh my God. You deserve no date, sir. And I got a great question. Penis should be in a cage. That's a great question. You shouldn't be allowed to fuck. No. Oh, it should be like, they should do the Renaissance. Like they used to have a cage for the vagina, but you do it for a penis. I put on his record, like, do not set this man up with anybody. I learned like a lot of skills, matchmaking that I wasn't ingesting in my own love life. Like I was like settling for the crumbs while telling my clients, you deserve more.

So after like two years of doing that, I was no longer, it was just sort of my breaking point. I was having panic attacks. I was not, I was in therapy for the first time. You were living out of your integrity. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my therapist, thank God, helped me find the courage to break it off with this person who was my first adult love, first person I ever had sex with. And, but then I was like, then what? Like, how am I never going to fucking settle again? Because I know that matchmaking is this first date solution. Yeah.

I know that I don't have, I'm not going to have a problem finding a first date. I'm going to have a problem not settling again. Yeah. And so I looked around for like, what do I do? My therapist hadn't dated in 30 years besides like get on a dating app. Right. Because I was getting a dating app. Like, what is she going to tell me? Sure. My friends and family gave me dating advice. Like, are you sure you're not being too picky?

The being too picky is so crazy because I've got that a lot and I was like, be picky. Actually, my note to myself in my next lifetime is be pickier. Yeah, for sure. So I knew that that wasn't going to work and I just saw implicitly how everything that I'd been taught about dating was rooted in this patriarchal...

Girl. Dating advice. More interested in women. We got tricked. Tricked. More interested in women settling and exhausting themselves, right? What is the numbers game? It is going on more dates than you need to, not trusting your instinct and exhausting yourself so your higher functioning shuts down so you're more likely to settle. Uh,

Oh yeah. The higher function part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started, I was like, okay, well I'm going to figure this shit out myself. And I started coaching myself. I was being mentored by a coach who was like changing my life and mentored about being in a relationship, like how to be in a relationship, how to heal my, you're too much story. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want what I want, how to,

ask for what I wanted, right? Like she was coaching me through this. Um, and I realized how awesome coaching was in addition to therapy. And so I started to like heal with self-compassion. I started to own what I wanted. So great. It's one of my favorite things. I started to claim my own essence based preferences, which I write about in the book or like

what do you want to feel like in the right relationship and how can you use that as a subtle proofing force instead of a rigid checklist? Yeah. My, my therapist has, you know, years ago had me write out, uh, what, like envision yourself in the relationship you want to be in. And what does that feel like? And I was like, well, I thought we're talking about my dad's death, but okay. Yeah.

You know when it's like people, like you're not obsessed with being in a relationship, but the people around you are obsessed with you being in a relationship. That's one of my favorite things. I think that that's also the patriarchy. I hate when women, and as a woman, I've totally done this, like we continue the patriarchal kind of bullshit expectations onto other women. Well, like single women are less valuable than coupled women. Less interesting, less, you know, and it's everywhere, especially right now. We have more money, we're happier, yeah.

Single women are by far more interesting. I'm in a relationship and I can say single women are far more interesting. Their stories are better. My stories have really gone on a decline. Same.

Well, I think that women get to want what they want. And if women want a relationship, great. If they don't, great. If they do and they're fine not dating right now. As long as you're being authentic about it. Absolutely. I'm not going to sit here and be like romantic relationship is the gold standard of human existence. I think that it's a part of a rich life if you want that. Exactly. So becoming a feminist dating coach became like –

really natural for me. I was like, let's, I want to help people, um, create dating lives that feel joyful as fuck, that feel free in which they don't ever have to settle again. Like I needed help with. Yeah. And then the benefit of like having this dating life for myself was that I felt free. I was like giving my number to cute waiters. I was, yeah, I was dressing in a way that made me feel like sexy and alive. And the bonus was that I met the love of my life, Chris, who was,

is not somebody who I might've swiped. Like he's incredible. He's hot. He's amazing. I think that I would have gotten in my own way before. Yeah. And then I quit matchmaking about seven years ago and started date brazen. That's amazing. So how, I want to go back to, you said you stopped, um, buying your own story that you were too much. Yeah. That's a big task.

What helped you along the way? Like what words were you given as guidance or like what did you have to keep saying and saying over to yourself to eventually it's sunk in for you to break free from that story? I took a picture of a subway ad, like an ad on the subway that said, if I'm too much, then you're not enough for me. And that just like those words were just really great. I hadn't ever had that thought before. So that's where I got something for me to just frame it around like centering myself.

as the answer and centering people that didn't want to be around me, like decentering them. I think that that's what the decenter men conversation sometimes like leaves out, which is like, how are you centering the men who are wrong for you? And how can you recenter yourself as like the main character of your fucking life? Um, so that really helped. I also just realized that my mom telling me at age 12 that I was too much was so much more about her than

Sure. Patriarchal conditioning and the way she was taught to shrink than it was about me. And I had to grieve that. And then, um, I just started really properly healed this. Oh yeah. You did all the steps still happening, right? Like I still have moments of feeling like, Oh shit, I, I just was way too much in that conversation. And then I have to recalibrate, like practice self compassion. Like I do my own work, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, interrogating your thoughts is like a huge part of it.

what are y'all's too much stories? Like I'm sure knowing she doesn't have any, I don't think, I mean, I am too much, but I tried to be great. I, a lot of times I go, that's too much. Should I do more? You know, that's, that's me. Push harder. Yeah. I mean, since I was a little girl, I would, I would like, you know, we all have like a dress up chest. So I would like walk around my neighborhood in a ball gown to get the attention of the neighbors. I mean, I don't even know. I don't even know. My,

My mom is always like, oh, your poor brother is going to need therapy because like my little brother, you know, it's just like when you have a sibling who constantly needs attention. But it wasn't even like a need for attention. It was just like, why is everyone being so boring? We've got one life. I know. That's really funny.

fucking do it yeah I was sure since I was six you know life's can be work of works of art and I'm very determined to make my life work hard yeah yeah as is Corinne as are you which we are doing

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Well, yeah, I got the too much thing, but I think it was a lot of mental illness in my household. But also, I think I was most scarred in my life when I was a teenager than when I was a child. We talk about childhood trauma a lot. I think most of my trauma happened from like 12 to 18. Mom would try to kill herself every time I graduated or every time I made a big move. But you're totally right. What you said about your mom is realizing this woman did not have it well.

If she did, she wouldn't have had these reactions. And so also grieving, it's so helpful to grieve like for the younger you that I needed to hear something different. Like that's really great. Like, cause all those voices in your head can get,

Well, the reparenting work is just so tough. It's exhausting. But dating in a way that feels joyful requires it. Being in a loving romantic relationship with another person requires it. And also, if you think about it, being in a relationship is like – I know you're not a parent to your spouse, nor should you be, but there are moments where I'll take – like my boyfriend will take care of me and it feels – this is kind of fucked up, but it feels a little dad and daughter.

But like not in a porn category way, not in a fucked up way, but in like a, oh, he's a lot older than me. So maybe that's why. But like, but then I'll take care of him in the ways that feel like, I guess nurturing is more not parenting. Well, you're giving yourself and each other what you didn't get. I think that that's just like healing. Yeah. So healing. And relationships can really be conduits to like major healing that can be tricky to do by yourself. And bad relationships though can also be very healing afterwards.

Like the bad relationships you were in. Months, years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just forgot my ex's last name. Whoa. Thank you. I realized it the other day. I fucking love that. And I told Chris, my husband, I was like, I just forgot his last name. That's great. This is wild. And my brain was like trying to search for it for days, just like on the background. I was like, this is wild.

It's wild. I spent so many years grieving this and obsessing over this and asking myself, like, what the fuck did I do wrong to attract this? And like, why did I put up with this and blaming myself? And then just like years of healing. Yeah. And it's so funny. You were blamed when you were in school. You were blamed for not like if you were a whore, you're blamed for that. Like, my God, you were getting it from school. You're getting it from your parents. Like evangelical. That is no joke, dude. Yeah. I'm not religious, but I know a little bit about that from living in the South.

they oust you when you act against their tenements. Yeah, 100%. How did you find joy in dating? Because we get written about that a lot. Like, I hate dating. It's so stressful. And I find myself saying like, yeah, dating sucks. But like,

It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to. There are some parts of it that are just vulnerable. And of course, when vulnerability comes up, we're not in control of the outcome. So then like difficult feelings come up. But in the book, I really hammer home, like how can you, um,

release the stories that you're too, your version of you're too much. Right. First and foremost. Um, and then how can you like recenter yourself by claiming your essence based preferences? Like really instead of, you know, obsessing about like, here's what I'm a no to. I don't want anybody who's emotionally unavailable anymore. I don't want like finding what you're a yes to. Yeah. Yeah. Cause then that aligns you with the energy and the vibration of like more of the type of relationship you want. Getting off on the vision a little bit, like suspending your disbelief. Cause people are like, it doesn't exist. Well,

Well, you use your imagination to get to these negative points. You can also use your imagination to get to these positive places. Yeah, and acknowledging negativity bias. Your brain is going to go to the negative first to protect you from a future that you don't want. So I think self-compassion comes in to really say like, hey, you're normal. You're safe. It's okay that you're going to the negative. Let's just take a moment to care for that version of yourself who's afraid. Yeah. And then say what else might be true.

What am I a yes to? Re-centering your desire instead of centering the fear that it might not exist. And being gentle with it. What if I met a guy that was amazing in all the ways I want? The what if. That just gets your brain out of that negativity. Well, that's where the Thank You More Please Challenge comes in, which is one of my favorite things. It's what the book is named after, which is acknowledging that some hardship has happened. Yes, you might have been...

like broken up with, rejected, like traumatic shit has happened and...

Let's go out of our house and look for tiny slivers of evidence that what you want exists. A cute conversation with your barista. Thank you more, please. A flirty interaction at work. Thank you more, please. Like it's battered Meinhof phenomenon, which is a very sciencey word for like red car theory, which is when you're looking for a red car, you just start to see more of them. It's not that more red cars exist. It's that what you're paying attention to amplifies. And so thank you more, please is about like,

Letting your brain know that there is evidence. And when you like acknowledge it with that verbal, thank you more, please. When you have that ritual, your hope starts to increase authentically instead of doing toxic positivity. Yeah. A lot of toxic positivity. And then I think that like blessing and releasing can be really joyful, like celebrating, letting people go as an active agency. Yeah. Love letting people go. Yeah. I love burning paper. You write all right about him and he fucking burn it. And you're like, Oh,

We're like freezer spells. And then she's like, well, I don't know if I got into that. Make it as what she's needed to be. You never caught a guy strand of hair while he was sleeping and then burning a fire later. Lily, get with it. Thank you. More please. But it's also too. I think that the thank you more please challenges. It's where woo woo meets science in my, in my opinion, because it's like, I don't know if you guys have ever been like, just having like cranky that day and your attitude sucks. And,

And you overhear the shittiest conversations. And you see the shitty – like you see a woman at CVS like slap the shit out of her kid. And everything in your day – it just gets like worse and worse because you're in this bad – the bubble you're in is just a shit one. It's a shit bubble. Yeah. And it's true that a lot of – like for women who date men –

most men are going to be wrong. Like a lot of men need to do so much fucking work. And there's a reason that, you know, the data shows that single men are the loneliest general like group.

It makes me sad. It makes me sad too, but then they're like, they did that to themselves. And people can choose to break legacies, right? So for example, celebrating blessing and releasing is like, think about the legacies of women in your life and my life who literally could not

be single because they didn't have economic mobility to do so. Or just the culture that you just expected. Being expected to have a life, like a certain life accomplishment, accomplishment quotes, at this stage, like that is enough. In the South, you don't even have to be super religious to be married by 23. It's crazy. I just read recently and there's kind of like, there's chatter about whether or not this is like the true, uh,

a true story, but there is like kind of folklore that women's clothing didn't have pockets originally because women didn't have any stuff to keep. And I was like, just fucking, just fucking stab me. God damn it. Just stab me. Shit. Everything sucks.

Because I actually don't like dresses with pockets. I think it ruins the form, but now I like them. I love dresses with pockets. Yeah, people will be like, oh, I love a dress. They'll do like wedding dresses with pockets now. And I was like, you know what? I do like pockets now because it's fighting the patriarchy. So one of my favorite TV shows, this is a very deep cut. One of my favorite TV shows growing up was on PBS. It's called The 1900s House.

Oh my gosh. I never even heard of this. It was very fun. It was so fun. I had the double VHS set rewatch it. And it was 2000, like 1999 to 2000. And this British family went like back in time and it was like documenting three months of them living in a 1900s house. And the day that she got a bicycle,

The mom got a bicycle. She was like, this is freedom. Yeah. Because that's all that women had. She got divorced. Like we literally, yeah, she was like, I'm going to go right to the courts. I was like, I was like a whole fucking episode of her getting a bicycle. It's like the dregs. Yeah. Women have had to settle it. Yeah. I'm a white woman with a lot of unuttered privilege. Yeah, you got some privilege. Yeah. Women of color and black women who've had to literally like,

like settle for the dregs of, because the world is white supremacist and racist and like,

Oh, I learned the other day. One of the reasons why we don't have healthcare, universal healthcare is for racist reasons because this, this German fucking author, uh, was really gunning for it. And he was saying like, there was an excerpt from the book of like, you don't want the lower races to have access to healthcare because then they will multiply. Oh my God. Yeah. It was appalling. And you're like, Jesus Christ, this country's built on racism. Well, and joyful dating. No, I,

I love how you brought it back. No, I think that like really acknowledging the hard shit and be like, yes, we live in a fucked up society that has treated us like garbage. Yeah. And depending on your level of privilege, even more like garbage, both and.

How can you radically claim your agency insofar as you can control who you spend your time with, how you set boundaries with the wrong people for you, how you ask bolder questions to cut through the bullshit quicker? Can you give us some examples of these bolder questions? I want people to open dating app conversations with a question like, what's bringing you joy lately? Yeah. Yeah.

Now, I can't imagine asking that to a man. Yeah. I gotta be honest. How do you make that a little more like stand up comedian friendly for someone who has like a word for yourself? Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, what I would say, like, what made you happy this week? What made you laugh until you peed? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You cater to your language. What could you talk about for hours? Like, what have you, you know, like, yeah, whatever your words are, right? Use your words. But you like, I love that question because joy is connective.

The right people, even if they're having a hard week or a hard month, they'll be able to be like, that's self-care. Yeah, yeah. No one will bring you joy is like gauging whether or not they take care of themselves, gauging whether or not they're in touch with themselves. Yeah. If I went into your bedroom, what would I see so much of that I thought you had a problem? Ooh, that's a great, that's a very Corinne question. And then you would love it. You would get so turned on. Well, I'm interested like with, like what people are obsessed with because I really need someone who's,

extremely passionate about something and it doesn't have to be something that's of interest of me. I just need to know they have something that they're passionate about in their life that's not like making money. I think it's a great qualifier to disqualifier. And then if people treat the question like,

and you like their answer and they're cool funny, then let's keep going. But if they treat it like, oh, well, I don't know, or like condoms or like whatever their answer to that question would be. You know what? A lot of guys would answer condoms. They would and they would be disqualified. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because,

You're giving them opportunities to show them who – show me who you are and I want to give you some opportunities to do that. So I in the book – That's a great one. Like the whole chapter is a list of 50-plus qualifying, disqualifying questions organized by preference. I'm so freaking type A. So based on what I did as a matchmaker asking those like questions early, I just put –

put them all in the book so people could look at like okay what are what's my preference what do I want family oriented growth mindset right hilarious like what is your preference and then what questions can you ask to gauge whether or not somebody meets your preference at least at a level one right and

Right. And I love this because I think like so often, especially like women who date men are going to go out and be like, men suck. But it's like, are you asking the right questions? How are you showing up to the date? Are you being interesting? Yeah. I read a whole piece not too long ago, basically about like art. Maybe you're maybe maybe you're being boring on dates. Yeah.

You know? And I was just like, I really love this because the only thing we have control over is ourselves. So we need to make sure that we're showing up even when we're tired. Because if you're tired and you're not going to show up as your best self or even like, you know, you're a woman. You could show up at 60%.

set and still really bring it. It's so pretty great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't waste the other person's time. There's also emails we've gotten, and I've totally been this on a first date, where like you were so great on the date that like it was a fun time, but then you go home and you realize, wait, I was fun. You just had fun with you. Yeah, and I have fun with me on dates regardless of how they go. And because we're stand-up comedians, we have a little bit of a loophole here with like a bad date is bring it on. Let's go. You're doing a tight 15. Yeah. Like at the.

You know what I'm saying? And it's fun because you're hilarious. Yeah. And also human behavior is just, some people do the wildest shit. Like that guy that answered that fucking question with like seeing these overweight women and be like, what? What? I almost want to go on a date with that guy to just go, what do you got? Show me who you are. Well, I want to see more. That's true. I want to see more of you. Let's go. Yeah. I do think that women need to get like, watch it when they're trying to teach men how to be better.

on dates. Ooh, I love that. Because that's unnecessary emotional labor. I think really looking at the baggage that the unnecessary emotional labor women were taught to do in order on a date, like ask more questions, smile more, whatever. And then to the point about like, maybe you're boring on a date. I think that a lot of people come in with so much fear and like nervousness and like judgment. Yeah.

Yeah. And of the other person that I have a really great tool for that to really like release the self-judgment and release the judgment of the other person. Just go in and have a fucking good time. And it's called brazen bragging. Okay. It's chapter three. I like anything with bragging and bragging in a tie.

in a title. I know it's so great. So bragging is not bro bragging. It's not like, here's my stock portfolio that we love to make money. It's not like, here's how I'm better than you, like sucking all the air out of the room, which a lot of people were taught is bragging. It's like adding breath to the conversation. So if I asked you like, what are you really proud of this week? Or like, what are you- That's a great question. Right? And you knowing your own answer-

And so before a date. Setting them up. Setting it up so that you can answer a question with flying colors. Yeah. Love that. But also, too, like if they go, I jerked off in under 10 seconds. Oh, my God. Okay. Oh, my God. Love a question that gives somebody an opportunity to show you who they are.

Like those are the best. And before a date to like really ground yourself on like what am I bringing to the table and then what might they be bringing to the table, write out 20 things you love about yourself in two minutes. Like try that before a date. I call it 20 and 2 just to like get into the mode of I'm awesome and let's see what this person is bringing to the table not in a judgmental way of yourself or them. Just like let's see how we can connect or not. Yeah. There's also ways that I found myself and I think a lot of women do this where I judge too much on dates.

Like sometimes I'm like just one thing they say or how they said it. I'm like, nah, nah. And like I'll write people off for like tiny things that I'm like, maybe I shouldn't do that. Well, I think that that's the practice of like asking a follow-up question. Yeah. Like if you're turned off by their answer. Yeah, you got to pull a clarifying card. Yeah. Hmm.

That's the tarot version. Use my own ways on me. I like that. Yes, it's pulling a clarifying card. I love that. Very wise. Yeah, I love asking like, wait, what did you mean by that? Right, right, right, right, right. Women should ask men that more. What do you really mean by that? What do you mean by that? I want to get more questions. What do you mean by that? That's a great question. What do you mean by that? Fucking. That's a great question.

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I also love when you said going in with positivity, right? So that was something that, yeah, I kind of reframed a couple years ago, just like going in with the things that you do want rather than things you don't want. That also aligns with a concept that

I don't want to say introduced by, obviously I kind of knew it in the back of my head, but, uh, the book calling in the one kind of brought it to the top of my brain a little bit more, which is like, you could very well end up with someone who on paper and even looks wise is not who you thought you would end up with. And I know you mentioned that your, your husband, I almost said current husband. What is my problem? I was like,

I love to say current husband. I say current boyfriend. I'm like, what are you saying? So, and I know you, you mentioned kind of in passing that your husband is maybe not someone who you would have swiped on, uh, before you had done the work on yourself. Uh, so in what ways is he not who you thought? He is so amazing. He did ask me a couple of years ago. Oh,

do you mean by that? I'm always so curious. No, but he, I had, I moved to New York to do musical theater. I moved to like 10 years ago. It did not work out. I did not like it. I wanted to make more money. I wanted to be more stable. I wanted to be in more control of my destiny. He was an actor and I met him and I was like, I had just left this profession. I had just, I wanted to be with somebody who was like maybe in a more stable job.

who had a more stable life, who maybe was more – I was not established at all and he was at the beginning of his journey as well. So I was just like I think getting in my own way with my conception of like got to be this, this, and this, and that would be over-functioning. Yeah, and kind of how you judge others is how you judge yourself even worse. Yeah, 100%. So like we can be very judgy to these people. But then on the other hand, it is high stakes because –

like if I'm going on a date, it's usually not to like fuck you. It's usually to see like if, could this be a relationship? And I don't think people often give enough credence to the fact that like your romantic partner, even if you're only with them for five years, you're spending most of your time with that person. Their vibe matters. Wow.

Well, that's why it's important to – what did you just say? No, I was just thinking about all the people I've spent five years with or even two and a half. Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. I think that's why it's so important to know the essence of the right relationship. That's what I mean by essence-based preferences and why I like really hammer it home because like Chris made me feel the way I needed and wanted to feel in the right relationships.

That's how I knew that that like on paper shit, the like good on paper stuff that I was like ish iffy on, um, with, I was like, does he meet on paper? When I felt the way I wanted to feel safe, held, seen, inspired, um, like, uh, understood it was like, Oh, you're my person. Yeah. Versus looking for somebody good on paper only who then in that relationship, it feels like shit or lonely. Yeah. Um, Oh my God. Being, feeling lonely with somebody worse. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Yeah. That's the worst feeling, being in a relationship and you feel lonely. Were you scared when you started to fall in love with Chris? Yes. Yeah. Yes. How did you handle that? He asked me out the day my ex and I broke up. Weird. He has spidey senses. Well, our mutual friend told him. Oh. Or he's got a friend. And he shot his shot very quickly. Very quickly. I was like, Chris, I asked him the other day, I was like, what's going on, man? Yeah. But...

But he and I were in the same circle. We met in person because I did improv in San Francisco. I made a friend. She introduced me to all of her friends in New York. Their friends introduced me to their friends who introduced me to Chris. Cool. Okay. So it was like IRL dating and why I'm very confident that it can work. And I created a whole strategy around it that's in the book. And we can talk about it.

But Chris asked me out. He didn't ask me out. He just texted me like, hey, I have a funny story. Like, call me sometime. I was like, I just broke up with this man. Oh, I like that. I like that. Yeah. Manipulative, but not too much. Yeah. In the way that I want to be manipulated. And I said to my friend who was like very kindly making me charcuterie after this breakup and like I was hanging out with her and like she was helping me like heal. I looked at her and I was like, I...

feel like this is like this guy is something like I feel like there's something but I'm not ready for this cut to me just telling him like flat out please don't text me anymore like I don't want to casually text you I don't want to go out with you I'm not ready I'm still healing he was like okay

And then a couple months later, we were like, wait, what? Also okay. And then honoring that sexiest response. Very sexy. Honoring boundaries. And then we started hanging out in a group like once or twice. And y'all are going to think this is cuckoo bananas, but you said you're a woo-woo, so I'm going to go with it. We probably won't. Yeah. I was hanging out in a group and he – Chris was like –

You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, good for Chris. I love a guy who fucks. And I, Chris, I hope you don't mind that I shared that, you know, that's a compliment. I, my boyfriend was fucking when we met and I was like, so hot and like, and he was talking about tender and we were in this group hang and he was like, I'm not going to meet the mother of my children on tender. And my body said to me, no, because you're the mother of his children. Whoa.

Whoa. And then the next two nights, I had consecutive nights of dreams of us being partners and holding hands. Oh. And I woke up both nights with the sun shining on my face. Okay. Okay. All women are psychic. I mean, all people are psychic, but women are just more encouraged to deal with it. But every time before I sleep with somebody, I feel like I'm like, oh, if...

it's never, I either have a dream that I slept with them. Remember the guy that we worked with that? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I had a dream about him and I was like, so I'm totally different after that. Or you get these passing thoughts of like, you're going to date him for five years or something. And it's like weird. It's so weird. So weird. So then after the second night of dreams, I was like, okay, universe. Two nights in a row. Do you feel like I am psychic?

In some ways. Cool. Like I was on a podcast interview and this woman was talking about the situation she was in and how she traveled for him. And I was like, so how was that trip to Florida? Nice. She was like, I didn't tell you that I went to Florida. What are you talking about? Anyway. Yeah.

I texted Chris the next day. I was like, you want to go to brunch? And he was like, yes. And then we started falling in love very quickly and it was very scary. And I didn't know how to trust myself and I was still getting over my ex. And this is how I know you cannot say the wrong thing to the right person because I talked about my ex for about 30 minutes on that date. Yeah. Like the first date with Chris and he held my hands and like listened and asked me good questions. I couldn't say the wrong thing to the right person. Also two months later when he said, Hey Lily,

It would be really great if we could not talk about your ex. Please, like, can we talk about, like, us? Yeah. You have a therapist. You have friends. Like, I just am uncomfortable. Wow. Healthy boundaries. So the right person will also be able to be an adult who has boundaries. Right. Right. Oh, that's a great... You can't say the wrong thing to the right person. That's beautiful. I love that. I'm going to say a note that that's only for...

women like because like but I would not advise women to sit and listen to a man talk about their ex although that my current same way just because of that thing that you talked about with like the emotional but I would just be like a little more sus of it but I love that story for you well no but my ex my ex got through or my my ex my current boyfriend he he just got out of a relationship when we started seeing each other and he was in

shreds about it and I and I like I listened to him and I was like oh because I just got a relationship too but I was like let's fuck you know like I was just I was happy about it he was not and so yeah I listened but then I remember I remember saying your story about Chris reminded me like I did say eventually like

cool, you're gonna have to talk to friends about this now. Yeah. I think women don't set the boundaries in the same way that men do. Yeah. Well, I think even in that, on that first date, at the end of the first date, like if you're vibing, you can set the boundary. I wouldn't recommend what I did to anybody. Right. Like I'm really grateful that it worked out and I'm, I'm really glad. But I, I think that people stress out about, uh,

Again, wouldn't recommend it. Did I say the wrong thing? Did I say the wrong thing? Right. Oh, yeah. People say, did I say the wrong thing? They overthink, like, what did I do? Did I fuck it up by asking if he or she wanted a relationship too quickly? Did I fuck it up by telling them what I wanted, that I wanted kids in the next five years? But you can't say the wrong thing to the right person. I think the right person is going to want to co-create a relationship and the right person.

person. And if what you said was like weird, they'd be like, wait, what do you mean? Or ask something else or say like, ah, I talked to a friend about that or something like they'll be able to handle you. I like hearing about the ex. I mean, certainly on a first date, like, yeah, not like when you get far into it, like enough is enough, but I like

I like it because I think, especially being in this line of work, like it gives me information that I need. When someone doesn't mention an ex at all, I find that weirder than even over talking about an ex a little bit. Because either that means they were poorly behaving. I just need a little more information about what went wrong, what kind of a person was this, what kind of relationship. Like it doesn't matter.

bother me to hear about that. I want to quickly go back to something that you said earlier, like you like the way that Chris made you feel because so this is a pet peeve on this podcast that I have when like men write an anniversary post on Instagram. Yeah, it's always all about how their female partner makes them feel. Whereas when women talk about men, it's often about like the

you know, things, qualities that they hold within themselves. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I'm like, perhaps how someone makes you feel like perhaps men do have the right approach and it's women that have the wrong approach to it. Because, you know, because I'm like, well,

If you just like pick someone who like, you know, if I'm just picking someone based on like, they make me feel secure and supported. It's like, well, maybe then who the fuck cares who they are on paper. Um, but like, do you have anything to speak to about that? Because it's like, it's like an obsession that I have with looking at people's anniversary posts and, um,

When you ask a man, like, what do you love about your girlfriend or your wife? It's pretty much always how she makes me feel, which just makes me feel like the woman's role is like a more emotional support animal. And I really don't love that. But you see that a lot in heterosexual relationships. Yeah.

I think that, uh, therapy is great for men. We love men who are in therapy. I do think that like that is, uh, men have different, um,

Men were socialized with fewer emotion words, which is like something that women have more emotional language because of the way that women are socialized versus men. I think that's interesting, could play into this, maybe not. I think that, yeah, it's very easy to see through an Instagram post and see like, oh, I don't love that relationship dynamic that you have going on, right? Like I think, you know, a lot of my clients who are single and dating talk about just like how much they want to find a relationship. And I'm like, cool, you get to want that.

the right relationship. You know how many of your friends are in relationships that do not feel good on the inside who are performing to survive in that relationship? So I can't speak to these exact people. I can say like, it's easy to- Oh, I mean, a lot of people I don't know. Sometimes it's a celebrity. I mean, I'm talking about just really anybody. I think that women need to focus more on how does their person make them feel and how can you share about that maybe. But I do think that

it is very easy to fall into an emotional caretaking role. Even for me, left unchecked, my hypervigilance, my emotional wheelbarrowing will take over and I will like, I will try to scoop Chris up and fix all of his fucking problems. And that's,

understandable. I love him. And he's there to remind me like, you don't have to fix this. You know, like, yeah. One of my favorite things to say to a man is that sounds hard. Hope it works out. I've been really, I've been really training myself to say that a lot lately. When they're, when they're venting about something or whatever, like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah.

Just that. Yeah. Instead of like taking on the problem. Cause I have a, the hypervigilance sucks. And also, so I, that's interesting. You said you're a little psychic, which, you know, um, I totally believe, especially because like you, you knew with Chris, right? Yeah. But there's this thing and I'm curious to see if you have it. I guess, I think I might've talked to you about this. Corinne, when I am seeing somebody or I'm like into them,

I have a psychic connection with them that I almost don't want. I can tell like when I was, uh, Dan, who we've had on the podcast, a comedian, a guy I've slept with that I like fell for. I was like, Oh, you're so hot and just funny and charming, whatever, whatever. I fell and we were just sleeping together. Great sex. And it doesn't even have to be great sex. This happened. He, he had met somebody and he didn't tell me yet, but it was fine. We're just sleeping together. I just really liked him. Um,

I knew the second he met someone who was attracted to them. It was fucking – and he was in another – he was like on the other side of the country. My partners, now my boyfriend – like there was one night where my boyfriend was like just having an intense conversation with a friend. It was 3 in the morning and he was at a bar. I was at our apartment and I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, something's wrong. Something's wrong. And I fucking – it's so annoying. Do you have that? No. Okay. I'm –

That sounds exhausting. I hate it. That sounds really exhausting. Yeah, I don't know how you break free from that, but it must be some codependent thing on my part, I think. I wonder, what do you think? Do you think it's codependence? Do you think like what...

When you said hypervigilance, it's like I'm hypervigilant on the side, meaning I'm just going about my day. I can tell when I'm hypervigilant in a way that's bad because I feel anxious and I'm like, all right, what do we have to do here? Let's analyze the situation. But it's almost – you know how every woman when she goes on a date, she's kind of casually afraid of being raped, but it's not really in front of our mind? Yeah.

I think all women are casually afraid of like sexual assault just because it happens to all of us. Like so many of us, it happens to us. Or murdered. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And so, but it's not like I don't live in active fear of being raped, but like it's a side fear, you know, that's kind of always there, but like not, it doesn't make my day worse. It's like that. It's like this hypervigilance connection to them that is not in the front of my brain unless something happens with them. It's fucking weird. Do you find that it's always true? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's not – I'm not always exactly accurate on like what I perceive the feeling to be. But I know that if I feel a big feeling that they also have. So yeah. So even in that, it was like heightened – in that instance, it was heightened because like Colin didn't need your help. No. Right? He was fine. He was with a friend. He was fine. He was just having a conversation. Right, right, right. But like every time, every guy I've dated, when they're attracted to somebody else, but even –

Even if like my boyfriend sees somebody in the room that's super hot, I feel that he feels that they're hot and I fucking hate that. I wonder, can I? Please. I wonder, is it you know how he feels or you're seeing a really hot woman and

And your brain is doing the calculus of like, he's probably attracted. I don't know. Maybe. I wonder how much of it is like... But like with Dan, for example, I use that example because it was a casual thing. It was just sleeping. But I knew. And whatever. It's fine. I was bummed. But it's not a big deal. But I knew the second... Women can feel people pulling away. Yeah. I mean, that's what it is. I hate that. Even if no one says anything. I don't want to feel that.

I had, I felt people pulling away that I didn't even care that much about, you know? Right. Yeah. You just, you just feel even, I don't. Well, I think it's the way we're socialized. Yeah. Like I know I was socialized to people pleasing caretake in order to survive and be safe. And so my eyes are on other people. Literally all the, I've been looking at Eric. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like I was, Hey Eric. Hey Eric. I've been like, I think we were socialized to scan. Yeah.

Yeah. And that we're scanning all the time unless we're aware of it and can like set a boundary for ourselves to create some more peace. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I also am thinking of the Long Island medium when you talk about that. Love her. Teresa. Oh my God. Her hair. I wish I could click the nails that I'm hearing. Oh my God. But,

But she has to set boundaries with those people that are talking to her all the time. It could happen. You know what I'm saying? You've got to like, we've got to figure out the boundary for you to remind you that like you're safe, you're okay. And whatever they're engaging in, none of my fucking business, frankly. And how sad that we can't,

like keep our loved ones safe all the time from harm. You know, I think that that's another piece of like the hypervigilance is like being out of control and how that can be really scary sometimes. But just reminding like, I'm safe, I'm here and the right people will communicate with me and tell me if they're attracted to somebody else. And it doesn't have to be a thing. My mantra to fix that is everything I need to know is revealed to me exactly when I need to know it. And so that usually gets me there with the boundary. Cause sometimes I'm like,

I'm genuinely, I'm reading a book or I'm like editing a video and I'm into it. I'm excited. I'm not thinking about the other person. And then they just fucking pop in there and I'm like, oh yeah, it's so annoying. Normal. Yeah. Normal. I think self-compassion would just say like, how normal of me. Yeah. Of course I'm doing that. That is very sweet. How normal of me. I just want to be safe. How human of me. I do. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um, what if somebody doesn't know what their essence is?

essence is for themselves or what they want yeah meaning like I love I love the word essence but like I'm thinking of like I'm thinking of younger women or at least me when I'm younger like now I love my ass I fucking figured out who I am did a lot of work whatever yeah but if you haven't done the work and you like if you were to ask a lot of younger women I feel like what's your essence like sure a lot of them would know but I feel like they're for the ones that were like I don't

I don't know. How would you say, how would you guide somebody to discover that? Well, it is sort of amorphous, right? And I think that for me, it would start with like defining my root values. You know, I loved the book Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. In the book, she has this like really big exercise of coming into like claiming your two core values as a human being. My two core values are belonging and courage.

And from those two core values, I can trace a lot about my personality. I can trace a lot about my relationships. I can like extrapolate just because I talk about this shit all the time. Um, and I think starting there of like, what are your core values right now? They're going to change. They're going to shift and grow as you shift and grow. But like,

Who are you in the world? What are your two core values? And taking that the next step, what are you currently doing or who are you currently with that align with or do not align with? Yeah. Those core values to start living in more alignment. Yeah. I love that because I think if you had told me you need to date someone who aligns with your core values 10 years ago, I'd be like, that sounds...

But that's because the core values that are often offered by other people are like, you know, I really care about family. And it's like – and I don't want to sit here and be like, I don't care about family. Like obviously I care about family. But like building a family is not –

That's not really on my agenda. And so it kind of like... It put me on the wrong path. So I would just like date people who I like. I like their essence. But then...

When you finally date someone who shares your core values, and then in that I mean like finding someone whose core values are wackadoo the way mine are, I'm like, oh, core values doesn't have to be boring, but I do agree that it feels so much different when your core values are aligned. I've dated so many people that I really like, but I often questioned whether or not they were a good person. Like they were contributing to society, which I know feels like a weird and heavy thing, but like –

For me, it's like I really need the person I'm dating to be making a positive, long-lasting, impactful, you know, like an impact on society. And that's a hard thing to say on a date. And there are a long list of occupations that I don't think positively contribute to society and like value.

right out of the gates we're you know taking so many people off the list but it's like there are certain occupations I'm like I just couldn't date someone who does what you do for a living yeah hard stop yeah and yeah so that's that's very interesting the core values and I think there's like different ways to look at it that don't feel like so boring

Yeah, and when your core values align, I imagine it's easier to feel free in the relationship. 100%. One of my clients who I love, and I don't know if she'll be listening to this, but I talk about her all the time. She came on my podcast, The Date Brazen Podcast. She needed somebody generous. Interesting. And not just generous in a friendship, generous with the world, interested in volunteering or donating or interested in what's going on in the world and how to make a small teeny bit

like something better. Right. And, uh, she asked this guy, she was dating so attracted, so aligned on so many things, asked him, um, you know, if you had a million dollars, like where would you donate? Great question. That's one of the, one of the questions, right? If you had a million dollars, where would you donate? Uh, if you could only donate it. And he was like, huh, haven't really thought about it.

And she was like, oh, that's interesting. Yellow, yellow. I kept dating. They had a lot of chemistry, a lot of good start thinking a couple of dates. And she asked, she, I coached her on it and she was like, what do I do? I was like, just ask, like, is there anything like that you are interested in, in the world or like, like anything that you're active?

What do you care about beyond you? Societal issues. That's not a football team. If you ever marched for something, would you ever march for something? That's a great question. Have you ever marched for something? Honestly, yeah, that's a great question to ask a guy. You know, like absolutely. Because guys who march, LOL, like what does that mean? They're disqualified. And his answer was, huh?

hadn't really thought about it. So she realized it's just not even in his scope. And if you have to be the person to introduce the concept of, you know, being generous with your time or money or resources, then that's a blessing release. Yeah. Because that was her desire is to feel like inspired by her

future partner. They don't have to be mother Teresa, but like inspired by like the world is really, really dark and it's hard to find light. And I think that the way that we connect with one another, the way that we're thoughtful with one another, the way that we can care for one another with community care is inspiring. And she wanted to feel that. And so then she blessed and released him. It was very difficult, but exactly what you're saying. Like,

You got to know how you want to feel in the right relationship to vet people appropriately and not waste your time. I also noticed like in a straight relationships from our emails and friends that I've talked to and from my older experience, like,

Curiosity on a first date. Yeah. Is it equal? Yeah. Because so often the woman can be more curious. But also if the man is more curious about the woman, like, you know, that's just – there's an imbalance of curiosity. Yeah. Curiosity is such a great word. Yeah, yeah. And intrigue. Like I want to know about you. Yeah. There's got to be a co-creation, right? Yeah. Like that's why I don't fucking care who asks who out first. Yeah. I don't care –

Oh, I'd be asking dudes out left and right. It's fun. I was too. And a lot of women in my comments are like, no, never. Never do that because it gives the man all the power. And you don't know that they're interested. And I'm just like, you think that that's the only marker of a co-created relationship is who asks whom out first? Yeah. I don't know. But the right relationship, the right conversations are co-created. I think the curiosity will be balanced with the right people.

Yeah. And for the people who are like, do I give them another chance? Do I go on another date? I didn't feel chemistry. I just ask like, were you curious about them? Yeah. Do you have curiosity about kissing them? They go on another date. Right. If you don't, then let them go. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel like people really give up too fast and I'm like, well, there's discernment and then there's just being hasty. Yeah. Yeah.

There's not that many people. Yeah, it's not. We have to wrap up soon, but I wanted to ask in your relationship that you found that seems so beautiful. Do you guys fight? I know most people do. Did you have to learn how to fight? And did he ever trigger you along the way? Because if you grow up in that type of environment, a romantic relationship is going to be a magnifying glass on anything that triggers you usually. Like a relationship could trigger you on like anything else can. It's kind of interesting. And what do you do in those moments? Like when you get,

triggered. Chris and I are so very different in how we were raised and how we communicate. And we've been together eight years and it's been like, it feels so, it felt great at the beginning. I've realized that, oh my God, we did not know how to fight. We didn't know how to disagree back then. And we've, we started couples therapy a couple of years ago. It's been amazing. Um, but yeah, we didn't know how to like,

what the other person was really saying when we were triggered or upset. I activated him. He activated me just because that's life. And I do think that we're

we're two human beings making a life together. It's sometimes messy. Um, I, I like to say like if it's more easeful than not, yeah, then things are going great. You know what I'm saying? Like, and that's how I feel with Chris. Like it's so much more easeful than not. Um, and what was the other part of your question? Um, just learning how to fight. And then what do you do when you get triggered? But I think I, I had couples therapy, um, not that long ago. And it was really interesting cause it does give you an excuse. Like these are all things I've wanted to say. And it's like,

But Colin and I looked at each other like we can just not pay and just say these things to each other because that was one of the things that it was giving us personally a space to say stuff. But it's like we were talking so much she wasn't even talking. Like she couldn't even chime in. So I'm like, oh, we can just talk by ourselves. Well, Chris and I are in an interracial relationship. He's a black man. I'm a white woman. And, you know, our couples therapist –

helps us to... Because that's a whole layer. Oh my God. There are so many things that I don't realize that he doesn't realize. Can you give us examples? I think that how to deal with... I'm trying to figure out how to say this. How do I navigate people in...

I'm just thinking like I'm so protective of my boyfriend. If somebody was racist to them, I would lose my fucking mind on them. Absolutely. Absolutely. And how do I navigate when someone says something to me that is a microaggression and like, like really like obviously setting things straight, but like, how do we then navigate that afterward as a couple?

And how do we heal? And how can I care for him? And, um, you know, really like learn how to be anti-racist every single day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and in everything that I do and when we have children, I'll, you know, like our children will be black and how can I, uh,

learn how to practice anti-racism in our relationship, in my interpersonal relationships with, you know, people that are from the very deep South who voted for Trump, who I am, you know, related to.

In my extended family. Right. So like how to navigate all of that. Yeah. And not lose your temper. Well, and how to be like kind to each other in the process. You know, I have a lot to learn and he's learning how to be in a relationship with me even still. So that is just a piece of what we're navigating. I think there's also like,

being a man and a woman, I'm also queer and like how to, um, really like navigate that, you know, there's so much people are so every person is a walking library. We just have so many layers to us. Yeah. Every individual person is just has a lot of parts of themselves. Yeah.

That's why relationships are hard. Just to go off on, I also worry like with interracial dating, I think it's also like when something is happening in the world, like when a big like racist event is happening, like how do you offer support to someone who is having just like

not even like a micro question, a wildly different experience. You know, like when Roe v. Wade was overturned, like I felt like men were not great, weren't really, didn't really give much to women. Didn't say anything, yeah. And this includes straight men and gay men, men hard stop. And so that's what I often think about as far as like, you know, if I was dating a black man, how am I going to support this person when it truly feels like the world is against them? Yeah.

And you're faced with evidence of it all the fucking time. Well, and as again, like a white woman with an immense amount of unearned privilege, like I didn't.

grow up afraid of the police. Right. I was taught to go to the police when I was in trouble as a white woman in the South. Yeah. And you grew up going, everybody's like this. Right. And then when you learn, you'd be like, Oh, my husband's like actively unsafe. Yeah. Oh God. I would be so wrong all the time. And then having children, like I'm like, Oh my God. And it's a privilege to not have, have to had carried that, carried that burden. And it's fucking so fucked up.

up that we didn't have to. And it's a problem to begin with. Yeah. And so, um, really like coming into, um, realizing how important the work of like being anti-racist is and like really being an advocate for change at any level that I can be. Right. Um, and making sure he feels heard and seen and safe with me. And, uh, and that, you know, I, um,

love him better every single day, you know? Yeah. And he's an incredible partner to me. He's the best. Your relationship sounds lovely. Um, so I think that, uh, it's multifaceted, but I love therapy. And I think that like, um, couples therapy doesn't to me mean that like, Oh shit, something's going wrong. It just means that like, we're two human beings that want someone who knows how to help people come together, like help us come together even more. You know, one thing everybody in this world has in common is we all just want to be loved. Yeah.

and seen for who we are. That's it. It's very simple. Sorry. And I think that people... I thought you were going to end the episode on that. Oh, I mean, I didn't know if anybody else had anything to add. No, I think that the last thing I'll say is like people, you know, people who are feminists

People who are socialized as women who are feminists sometimes have this idea that wanting a relationship makes you less of a feminist. Oh, yeah. That's horseshit. Right, right, right. That's such horseshit. So I would just say that people get to want the right relationship and their whole and amazing single as they are right now and that your desire, whatever the desire is, gets to be evidence that it exists. I think if the Wright brothers, like they didn't know a plane could fly. They didn't know about –

They had a desire. They built the thing and they practiced and they tried and they made it exist. Your desire for more gets to be evidence that it exists and you can't say the wrong thing to the right person. So like go get messy and like –

do joyful shit outside of your house and make new friends and expand your social circle and set more boundaries. And then your love life, you'll look around in a few months and be like, oh, this is actually more fun than it's not. Yeah. Yeah. I would, I don't, I'm like, you know, almost annoyingly feminist, I would say. And I, and I would never say it was anti-feminist to be seeking a relationship. I do think it's anti-feminist to like think that you are more valuable in a relationship though. I mean, you can, you can recognize that you improve,

because of the work you did in the relationship and therefore hold more value, I would say. But like there are just so many women who still – I'm a complete person now. Yeah, who really still hold on to that. And I'm just like, oh my god, how do we undo this? This is like exhausting for me and I'm just being a voyeur online. But –

Thank you so much for being here. Make sure to pick up Lily's book. Thank you more. Please. I know. I very much know why you came highly recommended by our listeners. Yes. This is a great conversation. Thank you for your time. This was the first of our big 2025 recommendations. Listeners ask guests. This has been guys. We fucked the anti. Oh, sorry. Where, where can we find you apart from the book? Yeah.

The book is everywhere. Books are sold. Audiobook. I did the audiobook. It's so fun. You can get a bonus at datebrazen.com. Oh, nice. Datebrazen.com. Nice. And you can learn how to work with me there. I'm on TikTok. I'm on Instagram at datebrazen. And my podcast is the Date Brazen Podcast. Perfect. Thank you so much for being here. This has been Guys We Fucked, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. We'll talk to you next Friday. Bye.

Bye. Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary. Created and hosted by Corinne Fisher and Christina Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination by Eric Freddie. Theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake Kozen. Taking off after Cat Star. Tim Horizon. Tim Horizon.

I see you. I faint out beyond. Always want to find. Is it ever now? I'm playing. Are you ever how? In my mind.

I imagine you don't have me. And we end up posing for the painter to instruction. All of it is real for the fear now. You're breathing this rosy light. And now is it ever.

I'm waiting in my mind where I imagine don't ever leave and we know you can't be real still how I'm waiting are you ever how I in my mind imagine

Don't ever leave me alone.