Panel: What will it take for Africa to achieve justice for slavery?
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Daily news and analysis. We keep you informed and inspired. This is World Today. Hello and welcome to World Today. I'm Zhao Ying. African leaders have called for slavery reparations from former colonial powers. They made the call at the 38th African Union Summit in Ethiopia. The summit was held under the theme Justice for Africans and People of African Descent through Reparations.

From the 15th to the 19th century, at least 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped, forcefully transported by mostly European merchants and sold into slavery.

UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said in an address to the summit that the bitter fruit of the transatlantic slave trade and colonial exploitation is having a lasting impact on the continent. Decolonization alone in itself was not a panacea. Political independence did not free countries from structures based on exploitation and decades of economic, social and institutional struggle.

under investment. It is high time for reparatory justice frameworks to be put in place. While the push for reparations is gaining global support, it is also facing strong resistance. US President Donald Trump has said he doesn't believe reparations will happen, and many leaders in Europe have also been reluctant to even discuss the issue.

How can Africans and people of African descent secure the justice they're calling for? And what forms could reparations for slavery take?

We're joined by Dr. He Wenping, Africa expert and senior research fellow at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Professor Adam Spodomo, chair professor of African linguistics and literatures at University of Vienna, and Professor William Wodger, professor emeritus at Department of History at UCLA. Welcome to you all. Thank you. Appreciate being here. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Well, Professor He, let me start with you. The African Union emphasized that the reparations agenda is not a plea for charity, but a legitimate demand for acknowledgement and accountability. Can you help us understand what reparatory justice means and why it is considered a legitimate and necessary demand in the context of historical injustices?

Yeah, well, it's not surprising how to know this demand coming from AU summit this time, because it has been long discussing and debating among African academic circles, as well as those international academic meetings, talking about this reparation about the

you know, to fix this historical injustice. Of course, we all know, just like you just mentioned, all those colonial times, African countries have been suffered, have been suffered very seriously. Not only plunder away those resources, especially those slave trade, slave trade.

A lot of those labor force have been traded all the way to United States. Even some lost their lives in the journey. So this becoming, you know, a big blow for Africans, not only this economic development, human resources.

And also, you see, it's like a tree where you're growing up and then being cut in the middle. So I think for this repertory and colonial compensation, this is just the right time.

for African countries. Actually, it should be put forward early time. As African leaders said, this is not saying you come up with like we back the money, we ask for the money. No, this is for justice.

Well, Professor Bodomo, the transatlantic slave trade, colonialism and apartheid have left deep scars on Africa. But how do these historical injustices continue to shape the continent's socioeconomic and political realities today? Well, thanks for having me on the program. This course of reparations has been going on for a very long time.

And you asked me how does this discourse affect Africa's stirring

in the global system. Of course, it has. The injustices that were done are, you know, the effects of those injustices are continuing. You know, Africa is where it is, not just only because some people think that we are unable to manage our own affairs, but because we started from a rough edge. We started from a certain level at which we were dissipated. Our manpower

Our people were sent away. Some of the most able people in Africa were sent away. Who sent other economies? And so if this is the case, the effects are here. And so we're suffering those effects in the global economic system.

Yes, Africa's problems are both internal and external damage. These kind of injustices are among the external damages which we must address before Africa can begin to take its rightful place in the world economic system.

Okay, so Professor Wadjar, anything you want to add, like how these historical factors continue to shape Africa's role in the global stage today? Yeah, I was just thinking, let me repeat for your listeners the second part of your question, which is how do these historical injustices continue to shape the continent's socioeconomic and political realities today? I think all of us on this panel and people interested in this topic

feel that the key issues here are justice and truth. That's the things that we have to get into. But just as an example of how the effect of a false history still continues to exist, we have the example of just what's happened in the past week with Trump and Elon Musk.

making demands of South Africa that fly in the face of the historical experience of Africans in South Africa who, at least after 1948, suffered over 40 years of white supremacy and extraordinarily harsh treatment and circumstances. And now we have an American president who is cutting off

so-called aid to South Africa and demanding that South Africa now give privileges to those same whites who oppressed the indigenous people of South Africa up to, you know, throughout through 1994. So I think, you know, in our quest for justice and truth, that's it's a huge issue right now, and it has really significant political ramifications for all of us.

Yeah, but Professor Wodger, we know that as the African Union presses for reparations, the continent is actually also facing significant security challenges from the Sahel to Sudan. So I mean, how do you balance these urgent challenges with the reparative justice? Both are needed by African nations, right?

That's a tough one, and I suspect that your other panel members would probably be able to weigh in on this more generally, because I'll do it from a specific point of view, and that is, let's say that I've been working with a community in South Africa that has suffered violence in 1960 and has never received justice for what was done to them then.

So they're not ready, I think, to feel like you have to sort of balance and compare, but you have to bring justice to them. And so what I would do as a historian would probably be starting at the nitty gritty ground level of saying, well, let's make sure that each of these groups of people feel that they have received justice before we worry too much about balancing the security interests. But

I would say that then I think your other panelists would probably bring in a better, larger view of the balancing aspect.

So, Professor Bodomo, what do you think? Well, the people who think like this, that, oh, well, look, Africa, you have these security issues. Why are you worried about just reparations? These are distractions. I mean, it doesn't mean that if Africa is demanding reparations now, that they are kind of forgetting about, you know, security issues.

One can always do two things, two or more things at the same time. One can market that. It doesn't mean that when you have problems, you know, immediate problems, you don't always look at problems that have been with you for a very long time. So I would think that it's a fair enough balance. One can do that. One can look at

Yes.

Dr. He, let me go to you. I mean, the African leaders, they have emphasized that reparatory justice for African people of African descent must go beyond financial compensation. So in your view, what other forms of reparations could perhaps effectively address the historical and ongoing injustice of slavery and colonialism? Sure.

those uh reparations can be done in a various way a lot of ways can be done for example like established a fund

for those reparations. Those funds are there, and then as long as not only British government or French government or Portuguese, Germany, those former colonial countries--actually, Germany already said before they would like to pay those compensation fees to Namibia, because

Because in the history, they used to kill a lot of the local people there in Namibia. Now they feel very sorry, and then they want to do something to correct those historical crimes their ancestors have done.

So this is the thing to contributing for Africans, like scientific research, like education, even when Africa is facing like the health challenge, like COVID-19 time. And now even, you know, malaria, HIV, AIDS, a lot of those public health challenge you also can do. So a lot of things can be done. And we just discussed the security issue.

Yes, security, like DRC, now the east part of the Democratic Republic of Congo. All of that, actually we can trace them all back to the colonial time. If we look at all those things in a balanced way. Colonially, that's a bad legacy. That is divided culture.

African countries border without any consideration about those tribes, their existence here, there. So divided. One tribe maybe have been divided into three or four countries, has been separated. That is planted the roots for the

for the future. Those African countries, the border disputes, even those conflicts like Rwanda, they have Tutsi people, Hutu people now also living in DRC. So actually, yeah, not only those two countries, other countries as well.

So mutually becoming the seeds for those conflicts. So those are the bad legacy from colonial times. Of course, so for current time, those European country, old colonizers, they can do more to help Africa to maintain the stability.

to resolve this conflict. For example, African Union now building the standby forces. African Union also now striking very hard for the collective security mechanism building all

all those needs money needs financial support you see so european countries or the former colonizers they can offer those financial support to strengthen africans this collective security mechanism building also can help like training bring their experiences for peacekeeping peace training so the

So many things they can do, not only saying, oh, how much money in countries by dollar or euro. There are some software, those assistance, some experience assistance, even like return back all those antiques.

Many, many of those beautiful historical antiques have been brought away from Africa now, put in the British Museum, French Museum. Now they need to return them back to African countries. So this is not related with any euro or money issue. This is related to the mentality change.

Yeah, so Professor Walger, just now Dr. He mentioned that the reparations may also include returning these cultural artifacts that have been brought away by those Western countries. Do you think these are reasonable demands? And do you think these are realistic demands?

I think these are very reasonable demands. I think to some extent they are realistic depending on the institutions with which people are dealing. But unfortunately most European countries and most North American countries have failed to repatriate items and I think that often reflects the continuing racism that exists in the

European countries towards their former colonized people. Oftentimes these excuses that, well, we don't think that they would be looked after properly if they were turned back. Although the British Museum, for example, uses that same excuse about the marbles from the Parthenon. I think all of the items that mentioned by your previous speaker are all very reasonable ones and one should expect. But I think one of the most important things

simply would be the one that doesn't cost anything, which is to have the former colonial powers essentially acknowledge their responsibility for past and continuing harm done to indigenous people, whether it be in Africa or other parts of the world. I mean, there really hasn't been much of an acknowledgement

of responsibility for what has been done. That hasn't taken place at all. And I think that might be a first step. How you get that, that's going to be a very difficult task.

Okay, so Professor Bodomo, what do you think are the most viable forms of reparations that could be implemented in the near future beyond financial compensation? Yes, my colleagues have talked about returning at the part. That's what we call restitution. Restitution is a very important aspect. When you do injustice, when they came to Africa, they didn't just only take away people.

people and they took away properties, they took away our assets, they took away many important parts of our cultural, you know, belongings. So they, one of the ways beyond money is to, you know, agree, is to accept the fact that this was a mistake. You know, when I was saying it's not just only money, I mean, we need our dignity back. So when you injure someone, you say, I am sorry, you know, you have to formally apologize for that.

We talk about, you know, recurring. These things can recur, can happen again. So what we can do is that beyond money and beyond reparation and beyond apologizing, we can also say that institutions, what are some of the measures the world as a whole can take

Okay, well, Dr. He, actually, when we talk about reparations, a key point of debate is whether today's Americans or Europeans should be held accountable for the crimes committed by their ancestors. Do you believe it is fair for contemporary societies to bear the responsibilities of the wrongs of the past?

Well, I think it's quite understandable now for the current society, the contemporary society now, you should take some responsibility for the past.

It's very understandable why I'm saying that, because not to mention this colonial, this colonial, this crime that has been made to Africa or to other Asian countries. Even if we don't talk about this colonialism, even now, the rich countries should share some responsibility to help these poorer countries.

Even though, suppose we don't talk about colonialism anymore, just talk about now, because now the world is not that balanced, developed. Some rich people, rich countries enjoy much, much more. And then the poorer people, poorer countries, they still, not to mention the Wi-Fi system, AI, technology, even cannot...

guarantee the water used every day, the food on the table. So this is, you know, human beings, our conscience, our, you know, this nature, this responsibility. That is why internationally speaking, United Nations somehow already make

uh... this uh... at this kind of a basic requirement for the rich country the you you you better to get uh... you know zero point seven percent of your g_d_p_ come out of the fact that the other that's it to have to the poor country up or people are fighting for the poverty and uh... get uh... uh... if they thought that we would be better i think this is a responsibility

for human beings. We are living in this same planet. Now, not to mention those colonial times. Yeah, because during the past time, the ancestors, those European countries, your ancestors had done such a evil thing, killed the people there, taken away their property, because that's why the poor today can trace back to the past.

So of course, it's very reasonable for now contemporary society. Now you also get something out to compensate what your ancestors have done before. I don't think this is saying, "Wow, totally unfair." I think it's fair. Well, Professor Wodger, would you agree? I mean, why do you think people today should bear the responsibilities of the wrongs of the past?

It's because the past isn't that long ago. I'm just thinking about that. I mean, I was born in 1950. Most African countries were not independent at that point. I mean, Ghana didn't become independent until 1957. Many Asian countries were only getting their independence. So the past isn't that long ago. I also make my comments from the point of view of I was a first-generation New Zealander who...

Since that I grew up, I've become an American. So I also feel like there are many things that the British did as colonists in many parts of the world that went up right through into the 1960s. The New Zealanders did before that to Maori. And that in South Africa, the wrongs of the past come right up until 1994 at least, because we had death squads being operated by the apartheid government.

So I think sometimes there's a sort of false notion that contemporary society is though we're looking at things that happened a long time in the past. And in fact, I know many people in South Africa, for example, to whom terrible harm was done. So I think in that sense, we living in contemporary society are not separate from this past.

It's intermingling amongst us right now. And I think even with the panelists here, we would have our own experiences of these things in different ways. So I think it's very much of the responsibility of contemporary society to take on responsibility for correcting the wrongs of the past. Mm-hmm.

But Professor Wodger, as you mentioned earlier, you said that many Western countries, they are now even reluctant to acknowledge their past wrongdoings. And actually, this call for reparatory justice is met with increasing resistance from these former colonial powers. And many have rejected making formal apologies. Well, some have offered apologies, but they've ruled out reparations. I mean, what do you think is behind this resistance from these Western countries?

Sometimes I tend to be a little bit of a reductionist in my historical analysis. And sometimes it also reflects my experience living in some of these societies and knowing the sort of educational system that I was brought up under. Like in New Zealand, I know my educational system was very much derived from that of the United Kingdom. I would come down, I think a lot of the resistance comes down simply to self-interest.

no readiness to pay, no readiness to come up with money and racism because there's not even the acknowledgement of what has happened in the past and racism

I think all of us have realized that racism obviously continues in the world. I mean, I've lived through the past couple of decades in the United States where when President Obama was elected, people who I knew would suddenly say that America was a post-racial society. I can't imagine anyone would be saying that right now. I mean, we've got rampant racism in this country right now. I think

racism was very clear in Britain when the roads must fall movement sort of expanded from South Africa into Britain and there was a refusal even to want to remove statues of roads in Oxford so I think many of these criticisms that come from the formerly colonized areas strike at the heart of Europeans perceptions of themselves as

I'll say sometimes the perceptions of themselves as civilized, as first world, and a lot of the racism that led to the original, let's say, scramble for Africa is still there. It's still there in Britain. Thank you. We've been talking to William Wodger, Professor Emeritus at Department of History at UCLA, Dr. He Wenping, Africa Expert and Senior Research Fellow at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

Professor Adams Bodomo, Chair Professor of African Linguistics and Literatures at University of Vienna. Let's take a short break. Coming back, we'll continue our discussion. Welcome back. You're listening to World Today. I'm Zhao Ying, joined by Dr. He Wenping, Africa expert and senior research fellow at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

Professor Adam Spordomo, Chair Professor of African Linguistics and Literatures at University of Vienna. William Wodger, Professor Emeritus at Department of History at UCLA. Well, Professor He, do you think that with the rise of right-wing populism in the U.S. and Europe, it

it is perhaps becoming increasingly difficult for these Western countries to acknowledge and repay the damage caused by slavery and colonialism in their history. Yes, of course, it will certainly facing a great challenge and the difficulties for make this reparations happening.

But it's nothing, it's totally no hope. It's a hopeless call. Not at all. The time for African Union this time to raise this voice out, which

which means now it's a good timing uh it's a quite hopeful why i'm saying that number one reason is now african countries now they are united together they make one voice heard in the world this is one voice representing entire african continent now it's getting stronger and stronger and

And also African countries there, like economic strength and, you know, the influence in the global affairs, all of that has been increased quite a lot. Considering when the Ukraine-Russia crisis, you know, took place, and also South African President Ramaphosa also led

several African leaders to travel to Moscow, travel to, you know, to Ukraine, had this shuttle diplomacy. Yeah, given all those years before, maybe this is not imaginable. It seems how Africa can do something, even trying to, you know, bring those international hot issues

now to come up with a solution, since this is out of their capacity. But now, you see, Africa also takes action, African countries. Also, like the Palestine-Gaza issue, you see South Africa has made a very, you know, leading role, bringing this issue even to the ICC, International Court of Justice.

And eventually the international justice court already come out with the resolution saying Israel had made a genocide in Gaza. So those things happen by all those diplomatic efforts made by African countries.

So you see, Africa is not saying, "Wow, it doesn't matter at all. Their war can be ignored." So now it's different time, different situation now. So this is number one. Africa now is on the rise. Secondly, we see, like I mentioned, Germany, they're already saying they would like to pay what their ancestors have done in Namibia.

You know, they killed lots of people there. They already apologized, and now it's in the process to make this compensation done. And also we have seen French President Macron in recent years travel to Africa, even say apologize to Rwanda, saying during the 1994, those genocides, this happening. So before

all of the french president you can all those demand from rwanda government seems to have nothing to do with the but now french government uh... macron now came to rwanda uh... in part uh... apologizing told one that president also they have a from time to time we tend that uh... the the cultural does i can i think they have taken away uh... from africa of coffee nothing being

a lot of items now one by one one by one so at least this is a trend so that's why i think it's not saying all this african union now this call uh is useless or has a you know we are facing strong strong resistance coming from those former colonizers so of course it's not that easy

But now everything, you should make it happen. You should start it from the first step and then given the time and the efforts getting more and more and eventually you can make something happen. Well, Professor Bodomo, how do African nations plan to engage these former colonial powers in this process, especially given the significant resistance from some Western leaders? Thank you very much. First of all,

First of all, let me answer an earlier question that you asked, but you didn't ask me. The idea that, you know, sub-superiorities, these things say that because they weren't the ones who committed these crimes, that they will not want to pay for them. I think I've done another interview on reparations sometime earlier, and I had an interesting example. And I said, for example...

These Western nations who are saying that they will, they don't, the men of those, and some people, not all of them, but some people in those nations saying that it wasn't they who committed the crime, that it was their ancestors, and so therefore they have no responsibility to act, you know, towards paying and towards the corrections. I would ask the question. I would ask them the question.

When African countries got independent, that was about 60 or so years ago, right? The young people of today, they weren't there when the money was borrowed. If we said, if we told them that, oh, well, you know, some people borrowed the money,

And so we weren't the ones who were going to pay back this money to you. What would you say? What would the Western countries say? So that's the same thing. It doesn't mean that we're talking about just individuals. We're talking about systems. We're talking about countries. The countries or the systems that committed these crimes are still existing. So from that point of view, from a systemic point of view, these Western entities still owe Africa.

There's no need to wake up and address the issue of reparations. Now, to your question about how can we engage these Western countries about reparations, we can, first of all, take the diplomatic approach.

we can put pressure on these countries at various levels, at a UN level, at various levels, and to drum it to them that, look, you need to address this issue. That's one. Two, we can also take a legal approach. You know, when the courts are there, one can always go back and say, look, if you do something wrong, we will do something wrong to somebody. The president can send you a report. So African countries are

as an entity, as a collective, can take these issues to the international court. Professor Wodjer, in your opinion, because we know that this AU's unified stance on reparations has been a long-standing effort, and it actually dates back to the Organization of African Unity. But how do you think African nations can ensure that this vision translates into concrete

and actionable policies instead of just remaining merely a symbolic gesture? I think it's going to be probably a long process.

I've been sort of thinking about how would you get to the reparations, because reparations are the end point. I think if you look in the South African example, one of the first efforts that was made was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and that was incredibly important because people were given the chance to speak about their experiences so that instead of reparations sound like some, you know, jibber-jabber,

general idea or something that didn't affect individuals or that people could explain that, well, terrible things happened in the past, but that's life and we now have to move on. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission enabled people to actually speak out and describe in terms that individuals around the world could understand what happened to people.

I mean, we can all understand if you've been tortured and raped and many, many other things. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission made it possible for justice to be seen to be done in some ways, but what then didn't follow through was an acknowledgement of responsibility by people in South Africa, the whites in South Africa who carried out these horrendous crimes primarily, and nor were there reparations given for the harms suffered.

So I think that internationally, the African Union, the best route that they can go, I think, is to disseminate information about exactly what happened to people. And this may come through the repetition again of historical studies that are looking at atrocities. I'm thinking here particularly of the importance of the Mau Mau case that was brought in the British courts in 2008.

to 2012, reaching some sort of resolution in 2013. And that, I think, was the first time that you had ever had

a British court actually accepting that victims of colonialism could even file for compensation for the British government because the British government's original response to that court case was to say that all its responsibilities had been inherited by the Kenyan government and try and shove off the responsibility in that way.

I think judicial proceedings are the way that I think is a way forward because then people really do get the opportunity to speak about what exactly happened to them. And that will give the sort of meat on the bone, so to speak, to whatever the AU decides to put forward as a plan.

Well, Professor He, actually just now, Professor Wodger mentioned how this case was brought to the British court. But actually, we know that last year, African and Caribbean nations, they pushed for an international tribunal to address atrocities from slave trade. So do you think this approach could be a practical and effective way in holding nations accountable for historical wrongs?

Oh, yes. That's exactly added information to my previous point. That is, everything, if you want to make it happen, you have to start it. The

the first step. So you need to disseminate all those information, the message, to the whole of the world, even our, this, you know, talking show. It's a part of that. You see, people, when they hear this program, and at least they got to know, wow, African now countries is doing this. Wow.

bring them to understanding all those pictures from colonial times and then until now. So at least you need to do, given all those efforts combined, I think I'm quite optimistic about the midterm future or the long-term future, as long as they are doing it.

Well, Professor Bodomo, are you optimistic? And in your opinion, what would a successful reparations framework look like in practice?

a successful framework would look like if both parties come to a resolution, if both parties come to sit at a table and talk and respect each other. In the long run, reparations is about restoring dignity, restoring respect

to the injured party. So, as a subtle end to this, as a subtle resolution to reparation, we'll see when both parties are happy and they can shake hands. When both parties

when the NGO party can say that, okay, I think I'm happy now. Look, you know, you did something. Now you have restored. You have given me, you have restored dignity. It's not just about money at all, as you've been saying so far. Me and my other panelists have been saying, it's not just about the money at all. It's about respect. It's about dignity. It's about allowing the NGO party

to feel happy or to feel gratified at the end of this whole process. So you ask me, what will the end result look like? What would a successful reparations program look like? It will look like it will be when both parties can shake hands, sit at the table,

discuss and in the end shake hands and continue to work together as members of the world. Yeah. And Professor Wodger, actually the African Union have also called for structural reforms in the global financial systems to address inequalities. How do you look at this and what kind of reforms do you think are needed?

You know, that's a very difficult question. It's really beyond my expertise, other than to my sense is that I'm not quite sure what's going to happen in the next few years. I mean, one thing I think for people listening to this show and the people on your panel is that I'm living in a country which is undergoing, frankly, a catastrophic destruction of social services in this country, an attack on financial services from within.

a destruction of USAID, of the National Institutes of Health, of so many things that it's a little unclear what sort of world we're going to be facing next.

in the near future because quite clearly right now the United States is not going to take on any responsibility for supporting or encouraging any form of say financial redistribution or assistance or things that people would have you know relied upon in the past so

That one is a, that's a big question. I don't think anyone has an answer to that one right now. Professor Bodomo, let me go back to you because we know that the diaspora has played a significant role in advocating for reparations.

So how do you think African leaders can strengthen ties with the diaspora to create a unified global movement for reparatory justice? You know, the African Union considers the diaspora as its development zone. You know, there are five development zones in Africa, north, south, east, you know, west and central. But we consider the diaspora as the development zone. And

Yes, the diaspora, I have worked with that for a while, and the diaspora

can play a very important role. They are the strong voice. There are many members of the African diaspora in Western Europe, in the U.S. and in North America. So, and they know, I mean, many of these African diaspora members are actually citizens of these counties, and they know these counties very well. They are in very good positions, and so they can exert pressure. They can have influence and

you know, role to play in bringing up the issue. And they are securely doing that. You know, as you just mentioned, the Caribbean nations that try to do something about it and talk about justice and other kinds of things. Yes, the diaspora has a very big role to play. We shouldn't say because the economic system, because the atmosphere in the U.S. or other parts of the world is not good, that we should give up. No, we have to keep on fighting.

You know, it may take as long as it is, but if it comes to a resolution, that would be cool.

Well, Professor He, we know that the call for reparations isn't just about compensation, but about restoring African dignity and sovereignty. So in your view, what does true dignity and sovereignty look like for African nations? Yeah, well, the sovereignty, dignity, of course, that's to show Africans that, you know, joined this effort to fight for their own development future.

If a continent always being left behind and always being, you know, cannot bring the people, you know, out of poverty, and then so when you are talking about all those reparations, so

So that will give some people, oh, they're talking, laughing, talking, saying, wow, you see, a poor continent wants to ask some money from rich countries. Colonialism has been gone, you know, passed for a long, long, long, long time. So the key, key issue is that sovereignty, dignity should come in from reason.

I heard the African very good proverb. They are saying African is facing some problem. Those challenges are quite a lot. But eventually, to resolve all those challenges, those problems, the key, this key is remaining in the hands of African people. So,

So African problem needs African solution. This is a long-term call. So we have seen that good momentum for African development. You see, I had just checked all those like IMF, International Monetary Fund, World Bank, or African Development Bank. They have all come out with predictions for 2025 African GDP development. You see, it's a

uh positive uh higher than the world average uh the gdp now can be reached to 4.5 somehow you know the world average is just three persons somehow so you see this is a quite promising uh africans of the uh we just mentioned death para and not only a lot of other death for working in all over the world uh even african young generation wow they have uh you know very

This is a fresh opinion to many, many issues. Now, we have seen many countries like Senegal, you know, in the year 2024, many African countries come out with the new generation of the leadership.

Senegal president, only 43, 44 years old. You see the Botswana also coming out with a new president, also very young, and got this law education, this diploma, even from Harvard University. You see many young leaders now they come to the power, the stage, so

So they have new ideas. They all in their speech when they took the office, they are saying the key in their agenda is to anti-corruption and then create jobs for the young people. So all of that shows, I think, a very good momentum.

though we should have uh... uh... this kind of uh... uh... hope uh... and uh... very good uh... at this point of view toward uh... this uh... african throughout the future so army uh... you'll build on your own country well and that people enjoy the life and then that continent has uh... the back to you know that a steady way and then make yourself very good

And then that is the true sovereignty and that is the true dignity for the people there. Well, also, Dr. He, we discussed a lot today about Africa's relations with these former colonial powers, these Western countries. But how do you view the role of South-South cooperation in advancing Africa's reparations agenda and economic sovereignty?

Oh, yes. South-South cooperation can play a very fundamental role because all those global South countries, including China, we're also suffering from those, you know, Western countries, those colonial countries invaded China.

in the Second World War time, and Japan also invaded China. Even my own community, my apartment, our community not far from Yuanmingyuan Garden in Beijing, you know, that gorgeous terrace, Yuanmingyuan, had been burned down by those Western colonizers. So we feel exactly the same feeling with African countries.

I think that's the other, like 18 countries, I think South American continent, those countries, because that's why we call our global South country, we had a same historical fate and also had the same, now the current,

uh... our definition also the state and we want to give out of our cell that cannot be this world always some are each country region them for a country always poor so that is why we stay out of the city that's why we can also here our help uh... to backup uh... africa continent uh... too you know to support out there at all to support uh... this uh... you know uh... reparating

for colonialism, we can do a lot. Like a brief country, like when we have those meetings, I can recall like China-Africa summit last year, 2024, September.

actually in all those documents, we already made this sentence in those documents saying we need joint effort together, China, Africa, to correct those historical injustices.

yeah you see same same words has been mentioned in china africa uh this summit document so given the time i think a global south country joined together we can make this voice more more bigger than just the african continent themselves and also make a joint effort as well yeah well professor bodomo how do you view the role of south south cooperation here i'm very optimistic i see a very

important role that the staff-staff cooperation can play. As my colleague and a friend, Professor Hayward, have just said, these injustices, colonialism and other injustices, were not just perpetrated on Africans alone. India, Brazil, many of the BRIC nations and many other members of the staff, global staff, were also victims

And so we can share, you know, experiences. Number one, we can share experiences. Number two, we can form a coalition. And number three, don't forget that where there is unity, there's strength in unity. So if the Western nations, the people who committed these crimes, if they see that there's unity,

among these people, then they will be more willing to listen to these issues. So on these three issues, the global staff can play a major role. And so I have no doubt that if we put this on the agenda,

If the global south countries put this on the Adveros platform, then there is more likelihood of countries like the U.S. and Britain and France and

and German and all those, they will be able to, they will be willing to listen more than to just only African countries that they think that don't have clouds. Well, Professor Wodger, I mean, we know that South Africa is now holding the G20 chairmanship. How can it perhaps leverage this position to advance the reparations agenda on the global stage?

I think what's probably going to be really important with that is that South Africa comes to, you know, on the sort of relatively on the high moral ground with the pursuit of the case that it brought in the International Court of Justice about genocide and what's taking place in the Middle East. Apart from the G20, there's also, it has a prominent role in the BRICS group of people. But I would say what the best way it can leverage this position is to actually, you

do some modeling behavior of its own.

Some of the references in the earlier discussion had to do with, say, Germany providing funding to Namibia. But the EU actually provided a considerable amount of funding to South Africa in the late 1990s to compensate people for past crimes. And most of that money hasn't been spent in South Africa. So I think the role that Cyril Ramaphosa could take particularly is essentially taking the high road on crime.

dealing with issues of, uh,

the failure of South Africa to follow up with the recommendations of its TRC to pursue criminal charges against those who actually caused harm to people during apartheid and to bring about justice for those people. And I think in that modeling behavior, it could lead by example, because then you would likely find that other countries would want to follow that sort of moral high road that South Africa can engage in.

Okay, thank you, Professor William Wodger, Professor Emeritus at Department of History at UCLA, Professor Adam Spodomo, Chair Professor of African Linguistics and Literatures at University of Vienna, and Dr. He Wenping, Africa Expert and Senior Research Fellow at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

Thank you all for being with us. And that's all the time we have for this edition of World Today. To listen to this episode again or to catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today. And for further discussion, you can follow us on Next at CGTN Radio. I'm Zhao Ying. Thank you so much for listening. See you next time.