Shownotes Transcript
Hello and welcome to World Today, I'm Zhao Ying. Coming up, Chinese President Xi Jinping is calling for joint efforts to build a high-level strategic China-Malaysia community with a shared future.
China's economy grew 5.4% in the first quarter. What's driving the momentum and is it sustainable? And as global consumers boycott American goods, could this deliver a major blow to the U.S. economy?
Chinese President Xi Jinping says China-Malaysia ties are ushering in a new golden era. He made the comment while meeting Malaysian Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim in Kuala Lumpur. President Xi expressed readiness to work with Anwar to build a high-level strategic China-Malaysia community with a shared future and to contribute to regional prosperity and stability.
Earlier, Xi Jinping also met Malaysian King Sultan Ibrahim Sultan Iskandar. Hailing the two nations as good neighbors, good friends, and good partners, the president called on the two sides to foster cooperation in future industries such as artificial intelligence, the digital economy, and the green economy. He also said China supports Malaysia's role as the ASEAN Chair, adding that Beijing stands ready to promote Confucian-Islamic civilizational dialogue with Kuala Lumpur.
The Malaysian king said his country firmly supports the Belt and Road Initiative and is ready to boost trade and investment with China. For more, we are joined by Professor Wang Zhengxu with the School of Public Administration at Zhejiang University and Professor Lin Taiwei from the Soka University in Tokyo, Japan. Dr. Wang, let me start with you. How significant is President Xi's visit to Malaysia and what are his top priorities during this trip?
This is very important, I think, in both long-term and short-term context.
For the long term, China is always playing a very important emphasis on its relation to the neighboring countries. Southeast Asia is a very important region for China's international relations and China's effort to build a world of shared future.
Malaysia is a very important partner as well as ASEAN and BRICS and many other multilateral collaboration framework. Malaysia is a major partner for China.
So in essence, it's a very important visit for China's long-term vision for global affairs, for Asia, community building and so on. But in terms of the current events,
Right now we are in this very turbulent situation regarding international trade, the global trade system, because the United States, the Trump administration is taking many very wild, I would say wild actions in terms of trying to pressurize many countries
using tariff as a tool. So China and Malaysia and many ASEAN countries have a common interest in building a coalition to counter this very
I would say very unfortunate action of the United States. So I think they will have a lot to discuss in this kind of visit by the Chinese president. Okay, so Dr. Lim, what do you make of the significance of this trip? And what does it say about the current state of relationship between China and Malaysia?
Well, bilaterally, it's very important because it is more than one and a half decades that the top leader of China has visited Malaysia. And so there's great anticipation on the part of Malaysia for this visit coming one and a half decades later.
And so they have given a red carpet welcome. And Malaysia, of course, itself is interested in bilateral deals. We have seen over 40-something bilateral deals done between Hanoi and Beijing. So Malaysia sort of has this expectation that they could also do bilateral deals with China. And on a multilateral basis, because Malaysia is currently the chair of ASEAN,
Therefore, it is also sort of representing the organization in reaching out to partners. ASEAN has always welcomed partners, especially in a difficult time like this, where there are global disruptions to the global trading system. And Malaysia has always been the country as the chair and as...
Malaysia itself, in terms of its country representation, requested ASEAN to have a united sort of a coordinated position or stance with regards to the global disruption in our poly-crisis world. So in terms of both bilateral and multilateral, there is significance in this.
Yeah, and Dr. Wang, President Xi has called for joint efforts to build a high-level strategic China-Malaysia community with a shared future. How should we interpret this vision and what might it entail in practical terms? I think, you know, in terms of China's effort to build a community of shared destiny, East Asia and Southeast Asia is an important area, is an important partner, right?
And China and ASEAN, because we are geographically very close and we are connected by land and by sea routes,
So the business and economic cooperation have been booming and now we are in a difficult time as I said earlier because of the US, we're in a difficult time and it is even more important we set up the effort to boost economic and business cooperation but we have to also
deepen collaboration to build more connections between the two countries, the two people in China and ASEAN region.
So I think this time they will discuss a lot of very concrete collaborative initiatives in terms of digital economy, in terms of cultural and educational engagement and exchange, in terms of AI, in terms of, of course, the BRI, Belt and Road, is ongoing. And I think they were going to see
some major break major milestone being reached very soon in special in terms of the railway the East Coast Railway of Malaysia and that is part of the Pan-Asia railway network that will go from China such as China through through the indo-china peninsula to Malaysia and Singapore
Yeah, well, Dr. Lim, just now, Professor Wang mentioned the BRI and also this railway project. I mean, how do these projects align with Malaysia's development goals? Because she has also emphasized the need to deepen the synergy between China and Malaysia's development strategies to jointly pursue modernization. I mean, what might this synergy look like?
Well, Malaysia has always had a consolidated national plan for modernization. For example, it has aspired to reach developed status, Wawasan 2020. By the year 2020, of course, the world was coping with the pandemic then, and so Malaysia is keen to
to go back to the path to become a developed economy, and certainly China can be a contributive component of this. There are already BRI projects such as CCRL that will connect the east and west coast of Malaysia.
And Malaysia will also become one of the terminal points for the Pan-Asian railway system that will run from Beijing down to Shanghai, through Union into Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia.
Thailand and eventually reach Kuala Lumpur. So this kind of a pan railway system will be indeed a way in which Malaysia can exhibit its connectivity with the rest of the region. And of course, in terms of traffic systems in Malaysia, they are already using Alibaba's system. And
And so even in industry 4.0 technology, Malaysia is pretty much integrated in some ways with China. So in this sense, there is hope that they can expand this connectivity, whether it's in virtual aspects or in physical aspects like railway or virtual aspects like traffic system AI controls and deepening them. They have always been very interested in transportation
attracting Chinese to come up to set up things like data centers, chip manufacturing to bring Malaysia into the developed status from the middle income status. And so China will be a very important, useful component for it. Hmm.
Well, Dr. Wang, China has remained Malaysia's largest trading partner for 16 consecutive years, with the volume hitting an all-time high of $212 billion in 2024. So which sectors are driving this relationship and what emerging industries show the greatest potential for deeper cooperation? I think the trade relation between the two countries took off after the
the 1990s, after the region rose above the Asian financial crisis, and then China and ASEAN entered a free trade agreement negotiation process, and very soon it became materialized. And
the trade between China and Malaysia mostly was there were a lot of industrial goods, electronic components that because Asia is producing many of the world's manufacturing goods and Malaysia producing components and some of those are being traded among Asian countries into symbolized in China and so on. And then of course there are
Chinese people are very fond of Malaysian fruits, durian, and that is growing much faster as well in recent years, the fruit and also palm oil, the raw material side. But looking forward, I think, and they're talking about a lot of
digital economy cooperation, high-tech manufacturing and logistics and so on. And I am aware that Malaysia government have very ambitious, have very big mission in terms of making Malaysia a center of
computing, of AI computing and so on. And in that sense, the two countries have a lot to work together. And I'm proud to say my university, Zhejiang University and Hangzhou, now being the center, one center of China's digital economy and AI industry is playing a part in this. And I think there are many deals that are being discussed and we'll see something happening very soon.
Yeah, and Dr. Lim, as you mentioned earlier, Malaysia is taking on the ASEAN chairmanship this year. So how might it serve as a bridge between China and ASEAN countries?
Well, first of all, Malaysia says that it wants to have a coordinated ASEAN stance and position when it comes to managing and mitigating global disruptions in a polycrisis world. So therefore, Malaysia is in a position for this coordinated role, and it remains to be seen. And of course, we shall see how Malaysia will implement this in days to come.
Secondly, Malaysia has revised its own Luke East policy to include China, which means officially it is looking to China as...
the model a developmental model a technological model in which it wants to adopt the best practices and the best sort of technologies available and thirdly i think malaysia has a very long historical tie with china this was i think mentioned by both leaders uh
not only in terms of contemporary period, but since the days of the golden era of Malacca's Sultanate, which enjoyed good ties with the Ming Dynasty. And contemporarily, with the contemporary China, Malaysia is also one of the first in the 1970s to have official relations with China.
contemporary China. And so historically, there's a precedent for this, and therefore they would like to build on this precedent by using and utilizing history as a platform to form stronger ties as a mirror to the future.
Okay. Well, Dr. Wang, President Xi also welcomed Malaysia as a BRICS partner country. How does this align with Malaysia's foreign policy goals and what new opportunities might arise from closer alignments with BRICS and the Global South? Yes, BRICS is now very active and growing.
quite important framework for the global south countries in promoting economic and geopolitical corporations. So Malaysia, I think Malaysia has its interests, has its goal of improving its strategic autonomy, also diversify its economic relations,
So by joining or by becoming a partner of BRICS, you can capitalize, you can have access to this larger platform to play a more important role in global affairs through this Global South Partnership. Also, you will become
Because BRICS has actually been running a new development bank, and Malaysia will have access to those capital as well. Basically, these multilateral platforms like BRICS, like the AIIB, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and so on,
They are very active, they are very useful for global southern countries to have more access to capital, to diversify the economic relationship and have a larger voice, have a bigger voice in global affairs. So this all aligns with Malaysia's international outlooks.
Okay, and also Dr. Wang, some analysts are suggesting that President Xi's Southeast Asia tour, including Malaysia, is a message to counter U.S., like especially under the Trump administration's tariff policies.
Like China wants to position itself as a more reliable partner compared to the United States. I mean, is that do you think that's what China has been looking for in the region? And is this what's primarily driven these countries closer or are there some deeper bonds or strategic interests there?
Yes, I think, and I said this at the beginning, it is this visit by Xi to three ASEAN countries can be looked at through the, in the context of China-U.S. relations, or actually in the context of the current global uncertainties generated by a very, very
different U.S. presidents, let's say, because U.S. now is pursuing unilateralism and protectionism. It is generating so much
uncertainties and decreasing people's trust in global institutions in the United States' intention to be a reliable partner, to be a helpful partner. So China is basically, well, on one hand, China want to have good relation with this country in any case. But on the other hand, I think China is also
kind of providing itself as an example, as a counter example of the United States, say being a responsible international partner. How should you behave in terms of building trustful relation, promoting cooperation and trust
globally among these countries. Okay. So, Dr. Lim, what's your thought on this? Because we are also hearing from Donald Trump, who said that President Xi's tour of Southeast Asia this week is probably intended to screw the United States. I mean, is that a fair characterization of China's intentions in the region?
Well, most of the world, you know, are caught in the superpower competition between the two great superpowers. And ASEAN is not an exception. And ASEAN, you know, since its conception, has always been...
a neutral platform for all great powers. All great powers can plug into the platform as a hub and spokes model to dial down any tension, promote free trade and other no-detriment policies.
So ASEAN has always cast itself as a hub and spokes model for the region and also a zone of neutrality under the ZodFan concept. So it wants to present itself as a useful platform for all great powers, superpowers to come together to find commonalities, to dial down temperatures,
to find and dialogue for solutions to disagreements. And in trade, in global trade, regional trade, this is not an exception. And that is sort of the stance that ASEAN is taking, that it is in favor of free trade and open trade. And once all powers agree
great and small, to come together to create a common prosperity platform for the region and the world. And I think this is what ASEAN wants to play in terms of as a neutrality, as a balancer between the interests of great powers. Yeah, so do you mean that Malaysia can probably work as...
serve as a bridge between China and the United States? Because now, what we are now seeing is that it is actually facing increasing pressure to kind of choose sides. How is it navigating this complex geopolitical landscape? Well,
Well, it appears our world is moving towards one of multi-polarity, and the actors involved are not just the U.S. and China, but also there's European Union, India, Japan, Australia, African Union, and Mercosur in South America, and India and the SAC region, S-A-R-C.
So all, and of course, Russia and Eurasia, the economic union as well,
in addition to the Gulf states and Middle East. Therefore, our world has become far more complicated, but it offers opportunities for all these organizations, individual countries, great powers, small powers, middle-sized powers to come together and find common prosperity amongst them by linking up similar countries
conditions or similar interests that they have. ASEAN seeks to play this role together with other regional organizations that also wants to keep trade options open. There are signs that there are ways to negotiate for a win-win solution and dial down the temperature
uh, at the moment. And ASEAN indeed is in a very good place to, uh, to do, to do this. As I mentioned, uh, ASEAN, uh, in, uh, the 20th century was one of the pioneers of the non-aligned movement. It was also an institutor of DocFan, Zone of Peace and Neutrality and Prosperity. Uh, and, uh, at the same time, uh, it is also now, uh, casting itself, uh,
uh, as, uh, you know, platform that, uh, is able to happen, spokes model, able to, uh, hold, uh, the different, the regions, uh, regional interests, uh, together. And so I think it will still continue to play this part. And what works for ASEAN is that within the ASEAN organization, there are some ASEAN countries, uh, that are close to a certain superpower. There are other countries within the same organization that are close to other powers. Uh,
And Malaysia is no exception, right? It has links to the Commonwealth. It has links to firepower defense arrangements. But at the same time, it also links to the United States and China as well. And these links are part of this conditionality that allows it to build bridges in places that are in danger of tensions and conflicts.
Okay. Well, Dr. Wang, President Xi has called for fairer global governance and upholding the UN-centered international system. How do Malaysia and the broader ASEAN bloc align with China on these multilateral goals? Oh, I think the two sides have quite similar views in terms of global governance, in terms of war would consist of fair governance.
global governance structure. ASEAN and Malaysia have been promoting and advocating for multilateralism and also for supporting the United Nations system. So I think they have a lot of common language and common goals. And you can see Malaysia's interest in joining the BRICS and the
and these other multilateral platforms, because we really see this as the opportunities to promote fairer, more equitable global governance. And ASEAN is very committed to independence, to sovereignty.
and to regional stability against military intervention and so on. So this time they are actually bringing the Gulf Country Association to Malaysia. They are holding ASEAN and Gulf country association in China
submit, so those are all actions that can both send a signal, send a message of global, of fairer global governance, and also they will also lead to concrete actions in that direction.
Thank you, Professor Wang Chengxu from Zhejiang University and Professor Lin Taiwei from Soka University. You're listening to World Today. Stay with us.
This is World Today. I'm Zhao Ying. China's GDP grew 5.4% in the first quarter. An official from the National Bureau of Statistics said high U.S. tariffs may bring some pressure for China's foreign trade and economy but will not change the growth trajectory over the long term. He said China's economy has a solid foundation, strong resilience, and vast potential. The official reassured that China is confident and capable of achieving its growth targets.
The country is aiming for a yearly GDP increase of around 5% in 2025. For more on this, my colleague Zhao Yang spoke with Liu Zhiqin, Senior Fellow of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at Renmin University of China. So, Zhiqin, China's economy grew by 5.4% in the first quarter of this year despite the external pressures. So what factors contributed to this economic resilience?
In my opinion, I think three factors have contributed to the result. 5.4% is much better than expected. The first is from the policy-making side. I think the central government has made good jobs that prepared all necessary policies to support the market, and especially in the financing area, that they have strong policy facilities.
And the second is that the whole country is already built up a unified market. That's why we see the market circulation is very sustainable and very active. So that's why we can see the business activities is quite enormous.
And the third, of course, the entrepreneurs that they have already been preparing for the tariffs imposed by the United States. I think every company, every factory has its own full advantage and disadvantage. They have all well prepared to deal with the tariffs that imposed in future.
And you mentioned the tariffs, and a deputy head of the National Bureau of Statistics said that high tariffs imposed by the U.S. cannot change the long-term positive trend of the Chinese economy. So how do you view it?
I think this is a right accompaniment as we know that we have an enriched experience in dealing with the tariffs imposed by the United States since four or five years before. So we have already more policy tools and also we have improved our marketing conditions to deal with all these problems, challenges that we are facing. So in this way, we should understand that
Any further tariffs imposed by the United States cannot help the United States for a quick economic recovery, but it will damage the U.S. economy itself. And retail sales rose by 5.9% year-on-year in March compared with the 4% growth in the first two months. So how do you see the growth potential of the country's consumption sector?
Actually, the first quarter is quite a sensitive time period in China because we have covered all the major festival time and this is the consumption height and people have more enthusiasm to
to consumers. So in this way, the traffic and also tourist industry, the three factors have played a joint role and efforts to stimulate or to promote the growth of our economy. So this is true that the first three months we know spring festival and other
more festivals we have. So this is a very important factor. And what do you expect in terms of how policymakers will further support the domestic demand and consumption for this year?
I think from the official side that they are confident that to have more policies support the general economic development in different ways. I think they are trying to do this in three major points. First is the manufacturing sections. We see that the manufacturer
section is quite stable and healthy. And the second is AI technology. So it's booming in China. So how to make the implementation of the AI technology with the real economy. So the third factor, I should say that the companies, the entrepreneurs, that they really have enough courage and also enough confidence to speed up their efforts in
pushing all the development and the business relations with the outside. And we've also seen the foreign trade grew by 1.3% year on year in the first quarter. Among them, exports surged by nearly 7%, while imports fell by 6%. So how would you explain this?
I should say this is also because of two things. One is that our policy is continuously to support the export entrepreneurs and the companies to meet the demands from outside.
And secondly, we have to notice that in the first quarter, some Asian countries that they also have similar holidays, spring holiday also took place in this area, in this region. So that's why the export business is still on the high tide. This is the main reason because the demand from outside is increasing.
It's positive. So that's why the factories and the supply chain do their best to meet the demands from outside. And with the U.S. imposing more tariffs, how is China going to adjust its trade strategies to mitigate the impact on exports?
I think we are facing the uncertainty in the policy from the United States. As we know, Trump administration is targeting for the addiction because also they will find that
When they find a difficult economy, they have to apply for the tariffs. But the question is that they cannot make tariffs as a universal weapon to stop other countries to develop and also promote their own economy. This is a wrong image. So we should say that the strategy for China is only two things. One, make stability, and two, looking for more opportunities. That's all.
And China's industrial output in March rose by 7.7%. So what economic signals do you think this data sends?
I think many foreigners have already paid attention to this signal that because the industrial output increases over seven percent, this is a very important thing for the country when we are facing the uncertainties from the United States. That means that this resilience
the potential, the dynamic of China's economy remains unchanged and even developed much better than ever before. And from the perspective of industrial restructuring and upgrading, what long-term impact could the growth in equipment manufacturing and high-tech manufacturing have on China's overall industrial landscape?
Actually, China's industrial landscape always depends on the market demand side. And the second is the demand on the innovation power of Chinese companies. At the moment, we see that there are potential innovation power and strength in Chinese companies. For instance, when we see the deep-sea companies that are doing their best to catch up all this advanced technology
technologies outside. And the second from the equipment that we are facing that no real challenge at the moment, I think from outside because China is strong enough and is smart enough to produce all equipment, no matter it's a lighter equipment or heavy equipment in different ways. For instance,
shipbuilding and all space industry and automobile, all these fields, I think China's industrial landscape will remain very brilliant and wonderful. And for the outlook of China's economy this year, what do you expect for China's fiscal and monetary policy?
I think from physical and monetary policy, we should do things as follows, as I suggest. Firstly, we should get more liberation or liberalized for the financial sections, give more self-decision power to make the business linked with the credit facilities in order to make our money or our money supply
supply is circulating. If this money supply is stopped, there's no active business activity. So that's why we should have something more in the financial sector. And secondly, of course, we have already built up a unified market and also a unified internal circulation. How to make a better use of the performance of the internal circulation?
That always depends on the strategic policies our government will have and already have imposed. That is Liu Zhicun, Senior Fellow of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at Renmin University of China, speaking with my colleague Zhao Yang. This is World Today. We'll be back.
You're listening to World Today. I'm Zhao Ying. Economists suggest the U.S. economy is set to lose billions of dollars in revenue in 2025 from a pullback in foreign tourism and boycotts of American products.
Data from the International Trade Administration show arrivals of non-citizens to the U.S. by plane dropped nearly 10% in March from a year earlier. Goldman Sachs estimates in a worst-case scenario, the hit this year from reduced travel and boycotts could total 0.3% of the country's GDP, which would amount to $90 billion. For more, we are now joined by Dr. Zhang Gong, professor with University of International Business and Economics.
Professor Gong, thanks for joining us. It's all my pleasure. So we are actually seeing actions like Canadian shoppers using apps like Maple Scan to avoid US products and Danish retailers marking European goods to steer consumers away from American brands. But how widespread do you expect these boycott behaviors to become globally?
Well, I think the citizens of countries that have been hit by Donald Trump's tariff shock are coming up with solutions to bypass that. They are trying to, in a way, engage in a sort of individual retaliation.
They're trying to boycott American products to the extent possible. I mean, there are extensive reports about that in Canada. Now it's spreading to Europe. And I think, I hope, you know, it's not gonna come to China in the sense that it's gonna affect the American companies cooperation here in China. I think, you know, we don't want to further, you know, essentially drive these American companies operation in China back to the United States.
But I think this is indeed happening thanks to Trump's policy. It's very unfortunate.
But nevertheless, I think, you know, in these days, it's kind of difficult to resist this kind of sentiment that America is bullying and coercing other countries to essentially, you know, pay for the problems in the United States. What are the key factors driving this global sentiment? Is this all about Trump's tariffs or are there any other factors?
I think the tariffs are a major factor. I think the tariffs is something that affects people's life. It does have implications for jobs and economic development in a lot of countries, and ultimately it percolates down to individual's pocketbook.
So I think you can understand that a lot of people are very angry in Canada. A lot of people are very angry in Denmark, especially with respect to his rhetoric about Greenland and he calls the governor through and Canada being the 51st state of the United States. I mean, this kind of a
rhetoric is just very insulting to a lot of people in these countries. So I can fully understand what this kind of sentiment is coming from.
Well, Goldman Sachs estimates a potential $90 billion hit to U.S. GDP from reduced tourism and boycotts this year. But how significant is this in the context of the broader U.S. economy and what sectors are most at risk? I think we should give a serious thought to the idea that the United States economy is actually trending towards a recession. I think it's very much bordering that point. And certainly the
the tourism industry slow down, especially from foreign visitors, is further adding to this problem. It shouldn't be taken lightly. The United States, unfortunately, is currently in a turmoil, in a political turmoil. Its foreign policy area is also in a turmoil vis-a-vis many countries.
And you look at the messaging coming from White House, it's very confusing, it's conflicting. All these things are not adding any good to the overall US economy. United States economy is very much of a service economy and tourism is certainly a big part of that. Unfortunately, right now it's being affected by this problem.
Yeah, but so how are major U.S. brands responding to this, the backlash abroad? Like if you look at Trump's closest ally, Elon Musk, the Tesla is facing this boycott in Europe. I mean, are these companies adjusting their global strategies to avoid being caught in the geopolitical crossfire?
- I think in addition to this challenge of being caught in the geopolitical challenge here, I think there's also the issue about a lot of uncertainty caused by Trump's policy. I mean, he's saying one thing one day and quite another in a few days, and his attendants are saying different things.
the message is all conflicting. One day you have tariffs, then the other day you got exemptions, and then the tariffs been on hold for 90 days. And then he said, well, this is not something that's going to go away. And all of these messages and signals are very confusing and conflicting with each other sometimes. So I think in this kind of environment, companies are very difficult to make planning for the future.
So it's a turmoil right now. It's a circus. So I don't know, you know, when are we going to see some certainty here so that the business executives can do their planning? Right now, I think everybody is taking, you know, acting basically on the spot, trying to react to the new challenges. And there's practically no planning for the future right now.
Okay, so do these developments signal a broader move toward economic de-Americanization where countries and consumers are probably actively trying to reduce their reliance on U.S. goods and systems?
Well, I think it might be still premature to talk about the de-Americanization or de-dollarization. But I think certainly there's a public sentiment out there in countries that are being affected to be very angry, at least with the Trump administration, not necessarily with the American people, but with the Trump administration. And I think this anger and the sentiment
does get reflected in people's actions. They do, you know, in their shopping behavior, in purchase decisions, it does make a difference, unfortunately. So I think we're going to aim for this kind of environment for some time in the future.
Well, do you think this is going to push Donald Trump and his administration to kind of rethink or adjust its trade policy and diplomacy? Or do you think he just feels this is just a small price to pay to perhaps make America greater again?
I don't think this is going to swing President Trump's mind. I think he thinks he views this as a short-term pain in achieving his long-term goal. This is a price to pay in the short run. So I think this is not going to change his mind. He's going to continue to do these things. He's going to continue on this path, fortunately.
So America is very different from 20 years ago. It's withdrawing from the rules-based international order. It's doing all kinds of things totally against the spirit of these international organizations. It's a very different America. Okay, thank you, Dr. Zhang Gong, professor with University of International Business and Economics. You're listening to World Today. Stay with us.
Welcome back. You're listening to World Today. I'm Zhao Ying. Sudan's parliamentary force has declared the formation of its own government to rival the army-backed administration in the country. The Rapid Support Forces, or RSF, says it is building the only realistic future of Sudan, adding that its government will provide essential services including education and healthcare to the whole country.
The announcement came as the conflict in Sudan marks its second anniversary. The war has left tens of thousands of people dead. In the latest fighting, the army bombed RSF positions outside the city of Al-Fasher, forcing hundreds of thousands to flee a local refugee camp. Joining us now in the studio is my colleague Ding Heng. Thanks for being here. Hello, Zhao Yin.
So why do you think the RSF has announced its own government and what could be the implications of this move? Well, to answer your question, I think we can go back to the origins of this war. In late 2018, popular protests broke out against the former Sudanese leader Omar al-Bashir. Bashir was ousted in a coup in April 2019.
The coup was carried out by Sudan's army leader Abdel Fattah al-Burhan. At the time, he decided to ally with the RSF leader Mohammed Hamadan Degelo, a former warlord who is also known as Hamiti. Then, they aligned with each other again in 2021 to topple a civilian government.
And one thing important to note here is that Hamiti, the RSF's leader, has actually long yearned for ultimate power for himself. So this friction between Al-Bahun and Hamiti eventually spiraled into a full-blown war in April 2023. The previous alliance between the two generals was just a matter of political contingency. So...
I think with that in mind, it's only a matter of time before the RSF declares its own government. Before the latest development here, we already saw some clues in this regard. For example, the RSF and its allies signed a Charter in Kenya in February this year declaring a so-called "government of peace and unity" in areas where they control. But
My sense is that despite all those nice things being said about peace and unity, the reality is that Sudan remains deeply divided. We are seeing a kind of territorial division that is taking place, which could potentially mean a de facto separation of this country. Well, why do you think that two years into war in Sudan, we are seeing no signs of peace on the horizon?
So, this war or civil conflict we are talking about here is ultimately about power struggle between Sudan's army and the RSF, and their military capabilities seem to be largely on par with each other. We have seen capturing and then retaking of territories go back into force, so
At the moment, both generals, I mean, both al-Burhan and al-Hamati appear to be more focused on trying to secure further military gains because both of them want to gain the upper hand militarily. Now, actually,
We saw U.S. President Joe Biden, a former U.S. President Joe Biden, on the last few days of his time in office in January this year, imposing sanctions on both generals and declaring that the RSF had committed genocide, etc.,
But frankly speaking, this is not something that Washington alone can solve, and the pressure from Washington is largely symbolic. Now we don't even know whether Washington under President Donald Trump still cares about what's going on in Sudan.
This is one level. Also, we need to keep in mind that two warring parties in Sudan are supported by different regional powers in terms of weapons, in terms of arms, financing, funding, and political backing, of course.
How to address the supply of arms and weapons to the two warring parties, for example, is a very, very key question if we want to see a ceasefire in Sudan. But this question remains unanswered.
Over the past two years, the conflict has claimed more than 150,000 lives and displaced more than 12 million people. According to NGOs in the United Nations, Sudan is suffering from the largest humanitarian crisis globally. What could be the factor that caused this level of humanitarian crisis?
Before this ongoing war in Sudan, Sudan actually suffered two civil wars in contemporary history. So overall, this country is very vulnerable in terms of economic development, in terms of social resilience in the face of civil conflicts.
Then with regard to the current war, since the downfall of the former leader, Amal al-Bashir, Sudan has been sort of situated in a relative international isolation.
meaning it is not really getting enough attention compared to other international crises such as the one in Gaza or the Russia-Ukraine conflict. Lenny Kingsley, who is the World Food Program's head of communication for Sudan, has said on record that unfortunately Sudan is being ignored by the international society.
This is probably because compared to Gaza and Ukraine, there are less geopolitical stakes for major global powers when we talk about the war in Sudan. So as a result, there is really a lack of international, I wouldn't call international intervention, but international engagement or involvement that is really reigning in the two warring parties together.
which I guess is why we're seeing reports about all kinds of human rights violations by both parties attacking on women and children and access to humanitarian relief being hampered, etc.,
We see numerous checkpoints being erected across this country, making the movement of humanitarian supplies particularly slow and lacking in terms of efficiency. A trip that would normally take a few days now often would end up lasting for several days from the perspective of international humanitarian delivery perspective.
This is the very dire situation on the ground. Okay. Well, on Tuesday, Britain hosted an international conference on the crisis in Sudan, where the European Union and Britain pledged hundreds of millions of dollars to ease suffering in Sudan. What is your main takeaway from this meeting?
Well, on a somewhat pessimistic note, no amount of humanitarian aid will be sufficient if this civil war continues. And as I indicated earlier, currently, how much of the international aid can eventually fall into the hands of the civilians and how quickly actually matters even more than how much aid the international community is planning to give.
That being said, it is still good that Britain has hosted this international meeting to try to draw wider international attention to the crisis in Sudan. We can't just sideline this ongoing crisis simply because there are other crises going on elsewhere. It is time to build international consensus and to increase the kind of political will to put an end to this crisis.
Well, thank you, Ding Heng. And that's all the time we have for this edition of World Today. To listen to this episode again or to catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today. And for further discussion, you can follow us on X at CGTN Radio. I'm Zhao Ying. Thank you so much for listening. See you next time.