S1E6: Hide and Seek (with Geoff Richman)
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Hi, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every single episode of Severance. Today, we're recapping Season 1, Episode 6, Hide and Seek, written by Amanda Overton and directed by Aoife McArdle.

Ben, before we jump in, how are things? I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. I feel like we're, you know, at episode six. So we kind of, you know, we're going into the sort of the back half of the season here as we retrace our steps and our experience as we explore the past, the recent past that in a weird way, having been working on season two, I feel like we're a little bit disconnected from the process of making season one. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like season two is so fresh in my mind. But I think what I'm excited about today is that we have our editor, Jeff Richman, with us, who

I consider to be a repository of all knowledge and memories. And he just has a mind that just will remember everything that happened. Yeah, Jeff is incredible. And I got to say, there were a couple moments. I feel similarly that it's been so long since we made season one and we're really deep into it. There were a couple moments watching this hide-and-seek episode.

where I just got really excited. I had forgotten these like big moments and these kind of rousing moments and like us all walking down the hall together. And it's all these like relatively, you know, when you look at the macro, it's a relatively small moment and small move. But in this world, it's a huge deal.

And I just got so excited for these characters. And it's just been fun going through it. And we're at episode six now, which means we're getting closer and closer to season two coming out, which is exciting. January 17th. Yeah, that's right. Very exciting. And Jeff is here. And just by way of introduction, Jeff and I met because we did Escape at Dannemora together. Jeff's been nominated for an Emmy three times, twice for Severance.

And another time for Tiger King, which I didn't even realize. Wow. Jeff, when did you do Tiger King?

That was... Oh, my God. The years are blurring together. I've just said you have an incredible memory and you're a repository for all knowledge. This is me putting the kibosh on that right away, so we don't... I came on to... The Tiger King was being edited for years and I came on in the last, I don't know, handful of months of the edit. So it was the end of 2019 that I was working on Tiger King. So, Jeff...

I met you when we started doing Escape at Dannemora, but you have...

done a lot of projects over the years as an editor. You have worked in documentaries a lot. You edited The Cove, correct? Yeah, that's right. Academy Award winning documentary that I think is one of the best documentaries I've seen Fisher Stevens produced. And I was very happy that when we met and I think it was Fisher and you've worked also with Mike Birbiglia. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. And Fisher and both Fisher and Mike recommended, recommended you when we were doing escape and we've been working together pretty much ever since. And I, could you explain to people what it is, what your responsibilities as an editor are for people who don't know how, how it works and, you know, putting together a

a show. I mean, basically it's sort of like the last step in the like storytelling process where we're taking the writing, the performances, the camera work, the lighting, the sound effects, the music, and kind of like putting it all together so that the story unfolds in the best way possible. That's sort of the simple version, but then there's like the, there's sort of like the side of editing that's hard to describe even like while you're doing it, which is the effect of like putting shots together in a certain order and

with a certain rhythm or putting scenes in a certain order that creates a feeling that was never there before. And that's the process. It's sort of like finding the best way to put these performances and these scenes in an order that creates the feeling that you're going for so that you're invested with the characters and that you're feeling what they're feeling and you're absorbed in the world of the story.

Yeah. So you're either creating something that wasn't there or replicating something that was there and making sure it feels how you guys want it to feel and look and everything. It's taking everything, gathering it and turning it into one thing, essentially. Yeah. I mean, that's a big part of the thing is like you read something on the page and you

You feel something when you're reading it, and then you put it up on screen in a certain way, and it just doesn't have the feeling that you want. So I think part of the process is discovering the ways to cut it so that it brings out the feeling that you're trying to go for. And some of that is trial and error. And it's sort of this weird, mysterious effect of juxtaposing shots or scenes in a certain way that just...

creates a spark or a feeling that you just can't always predict. So it's a fun, that's the fun part of the process. The director editor relationship, I think is such a specific and unique one. I, I,

I think when you're making something as a director, in the beginning, it's sort of three phases. And you have the prep where you're getting ready to shoot that goes on for months and months and months. Then you have the shooting period, which goes on for months and months and months. And then you have the editing period, which also goes on for a long time.

And during those different phases, as a director, you're bonding, I think, with different people in the process along the way. In the prep phase, I find you're bonding with the production designer,

first because you have to really be talking about these environments and these sets and the look of what you're going to be filming. And then as you go into shooting, you're really connecting with your cinematographer because you have to work every day together to get these shots. And then finally, when you finish the shoot, you are in the room with the editor. And that's the final sort of phase where you are putting it all together, as you were saying. And that relationship is just so-- I think it's a very--

sensitive one, at least from my point of view, because you're in a room. And by the way, we, you know, post COVID, we did a lot of editing remotely on the show where I'd be home, you'd be home and we'd be going through a server, but we wouldn't be in the same place, but we've gotten used to editing remotely together, but you have to have a, first of all, the, like the ability just to be with somebody for a long period of time. That's like one of the main things, right? I mean, yeah, it's, it's a pretty, it's like a very intimate experience.

safe place. I mean, especially like for you coming from set where like, it's just a lot of stress and a lot of like, there's like a ticking clock all the time. And I think like the editing room just is this place where you can kind of put that aside and just like,

focus on like trying different things and experimenting and like, it's okay to mess up. And like, there's just, it's just a different sort of comfort level that I think that you have in the editing room. It's where you're aiming to get to when you're making a movie or a show, you're aiming to get to the editing room, at least how I feel. And you want to arm yourself with enough pieces, shots to create scenes and sequences so that when you get to the editing room, the editor will look at you and go, okay, you know,

I had a lot of fun playing around with this. You don't want the editor to look at you and go like, I wish I had a shot of Mark opening that door, you know? And that's, that's, and, and, you

You know, when you're making it to, you know, you'll call up sometimes when you see the dailies or say like, hey, I didn't see a shot of Mark opening the door. And then, you know, oh, yeah, we didn't get that. We have to get it. But for me, it's it really is my favorite part of the process. I think sitting in an editing room with you working on something that we've been working on with no time pressure that like you have on a set of other, you know, having 150 people on the clock.

and all those things. It's a very, like you said, warm space. And I think it's so much fun to put this stuff together and to figure out what the feeling is of the scene and the music and the performance and going through performance and figuring out the pacing and the tone. And all of that stuff is really what we spend a lot of time doing.

What is it about this particular director-editor relationship? Why does it work so well? For me, I think it's like there is something that you just gain by working together for a certain number of years, like a level of trust, trust.

in like the other person's, you have sort of the similar sensibilities. So you kind of develop a shorthand. And there's also like the trust in knowing that you can kind of go down different roads and that you're all still sort of

going towards the same place. Like you're still, you're all working on the same film or the same show, the same story. And there's like a connection that allows you to be a little bit more free and like experiment more so that when Ben says he's thinking of a scene in a certain way, I assume he understands, he knows that I know what he means by that. I mean, I'm speaking for you now, but it doesn't scare you if you see something

five out of the six things not hitting the mark because it's like you understand what that the intention is there and that we're sort of speaking the same language. Yeah. Yeah. And that process, I think, is so important to try things. And when you're in sync with

with each other, it's great, but you're also questioning each other too. And those questions can be talked about in theory, or you can just try them. And I've always been much better at just trying something as opposed to talking about the theory of like, well, maybe we shouldn't cut to Mark opening the door there because it'd be more interesting to see Cobell just watching him. You could talk about that for five minutes or, you know,

Jeff could just literally do it in like five seconds and then you can look at it and see and a lot of editors I found like to talk about stuff and and you know or theorize and I and for me it's like well Let's just let's just actually do it and the one thing I'll say about you Jeff without trying to you know embarrassing you or anything but like technically what I think is so amazing about Jeff is he's so technically proficient and

and creatively thoughtful that I'm thinking about an idea in a creative way, but Jeff knows how to translate that technically into trying these incredibly complicated things sometimes in terms of music and sound and imagery. And now Teddy and Jeff have been working together for five years on the show now too. So they really have a great shorthand and

way of Teddy being able to deliver music and Jeff being able to sort of separate out some of the tracks. They're called stems. And he can use maybe just one element or take out maybe like the low end sound. Or there's like some sort of other instrument that he can experiment with to create a feeling.

So you and Teddy have this other relationship where you're trusting each other and are kind of creatively aligned as well. Yeah. I mean, and that's like, that is the same thing. It kind of built up over time. It's sort of like we can sort of, like he can send a cue that maybe isn't working the way that we want it to for the scene. And like, it's easy to have a conversation where it's not like, this doesn't work, this doesn't work. It's more like just talking about like,

where it falls apart. And there's like an instant understanding, like, oh, I get what you're saying. Oh, yeah, it was working up to this point. And by saying this is where it falls apart, I completely understand now what's not working and what you're actually going for. And that's sort of a, like, just sort of a synchronicity that's built up over time. And a lack of ego, too, I think, in the work, because at this point, everybody's, you know, we all are

headed towards the same goal. There's no question about whether somebody's doing something that's good or not. And we're all just sort of like trying to work towards the same end. But Jeff, you have always wanted to be an editor. Just before we start talking about the episode, I'm just curious how you came to this and what made you want to do this? I did. I mean, I was editing together movies with two VCRs in my bedroom growing up. And I went to NYU film school and sort of like

So entering the film school, I sort of had this idea of like, I'll direct and write. But then very quickly just started editing my own films and my friends' films and just kind of being an editor. And by the time I came out of school, that's all I was doing. I remember the two VCR editing. That was really hard. Yeah.

Getting the record and the play pause and hitting it so that they start. Yeah. One of the first things I ever edited that I showed to people after I was a kid, I did that when I was about 20 years old on two VCRs. I mean, we lived in that era of...

I mean, it's the severance era, really, right? I mean, in terms of the technology a little bit. Yeah, where you see the little glitch on every cut because it doesn't, yeah. And what do you think is the most important thing to know as an editor? Like, what is the most important element of being a good editor in your mind? I think the biggest thing you learn over time is the process. It's sort of like the film and the project could be different, right?

drastically, but the process sort of stays the same where it's like you have to know that it's okay not to know where you're going. That's like you have to keep trying different things. You keep building the parts. You're putting together in the way that you think works best in that moment, knowing that when you put it together, you're just going to discover what doesn't work about it and then move forward from there. And I think like the more you do it, the less disheartened you get when things are not

playing the way you wanted them to, because that's just, that's the process. By the way, I feel like that's very akin to what directing is too, is being aware in the moment of what's working and what isn't working and adjusting from there. I also think you think as a writer, as an editor too, a lot. I mean, you're very...

aware besides just the technical aspects of how a scene is working or not, just in terms of the story. And I think that's incredibly important as an editor of movies or television shows, of being able to track the story and really how where you are in the story affects what the scene is in terms of how you play the scene.

In terms of pacing, in terms of the choices of what the scene feels like, all of that is fit into a context that's already there that really affects what that scene is going to be. Oh, and context is everything. Because you can have a scene that's brilliantly put together that falls completely flat if it's in the wrong context. And it's all about the structure of the episode or whatever. I mean, every scene is...

is handing off a feeling to the next scene and that's plays a huge part in the process. Yeah, just to like reiterate what Ben was saying, Jeff, is I found that you're so creatively engaged in the show that like going into season two, just having general story conversations, it was always additive and valuable to have you be a part of those conversations too, because

You just have such a sense of the big macro view of the show, but also just the feelings inside the show and how it looked. Just everything. So, yeah, you're a huge part of it. It was really fun to be part of those conversations.

As an editor, that's an advantage also in a way because you're experiencing everything without the context of what the conversations on set and seeing what's going on. You're just getting this raw footage.

and knowing what the script is, and you're looking at it and going like, OK, is this making sense for me? Not being in those conversations and being a part of that making of it. And that's really important because you're really the audience. You're the first audience. Yeah, it doesn't matter how much money or time was put into a shot. It's either it works or it doesn't work. And so you see that-- Which can be very frustrating sometimes when you put a lot of time and money into a shot, and Jeff is like, yeah, but it doesn't work. Yeah.

And Jeff, before we jump into the episode, was there anything particularly challenging about episode six that you remember when you guys were cutting it together?

I think it's actually what we were just talking about. It's like finding the right sequence to create that build. Like when you look at episode six now, it's like it's a it seems like a pretty straight line for certainly the first half of the episode. And then the second half, it's just like everything sort of feels like it organically hands off from one thing to the next. But I remember like me and Erica, the other editor on the show, that was something we worked a lot at trying to find the right sequence.

Yeah, I think it's important to talk about that too as we go along because for people who are fans of the show or, you know, and you see and you go, okay, I really like that show, just to know that the process on making something like this, it's not, it's not easy.

It's not simple always, and there's a lot of trial and error. And I think something can be written really well, but when you actually see it filmed and you do the scene, sometimes in a show like this where the tone is always sort of something that we're defining and the story we're trying to be both mysterious and also move it forward, that you have to figure that out as you go along and...

it can be a messy process sometimes in terms of creatively, you know, which is okay. And we'll be right back. At Lumen, things are not always what they seem.

Mark, Dylan, Helly, and Irving in MDR make a great team, but what else lies beyond the four white walls of their department? There seem to be more questions than answers as the secrets of Lumen are slowly revealed. "There's definitely a lot more going on than you see. It's a little bit creepy." I agree, there are more Qs than As.

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- Okay, so we begin episode six in the home of Mrs. Selvig. We learn that she's living in the basement and in a very austere sort of, kind of a '50s military hospital-like bed, and we see this shrine

the shrine to Keir, which this was fun because a lot of fans have really pulled out the specifics of what's in this shrine. And so is Cat Miller, our props master. And at the time, also, Jeff Mann was involved in this in terms of creating what this would be and what information we would give the audience.

Not really knowing that people would delve so deeply into this, but, you know, kind of hoping people would. But some of the things that are in the shrine, Adam? Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff. There is a portrait of Kier. There is a canister of Lumen Industries topical salve. There's a photo of a young Kobel outside the Myrtle Egan School for Girls. There are framed awards that Kobel won for being the, quote, most observant.

and for best use of mealtime condiments. A tube that says, Charlotte Cobell, date of birth 3-17-44. A model of a building, an old lumen poster that's a visual depiction of work-life balance that also says, imagine yourself as a seesaw. Do not allow yourself to snap between the weight of your stressful and unbalanced life.

Isn't that something you say to her in that first episode? Yeah, I say... When you're doing the intake with her? I'm trying to get back on track with Helly and I say, imagine yourself as a seesaw and then she grabs the book away from me. Right, right, yeah. So this is all...

Really interesting. The tube, I think it's a tube, like a breathing tube, but then kind of wrapped around it is a hospital bracelet that says Charlotte Cobell, DOB 31744. So we don't know exactly who this is, although obviously they have the same surname as Harmony.

Yep. Yeah. There's some interesting little tidbits in that shrine. And you get the sense that this is, you know, her private space where she, where she prays and where she kind of meditates on, on her connection to Kier. And at the same time as we're,

Seeing all that, we're also getting this call from Grainer, who's letting her know that he's tracked the chip to Rigabi. And then, you know, we're sort of kicked off into the episode. I mean, I feel like Cobell's secret life or her personal life is something that it's very, to me, it's always interesting, you know, what her actual home life is. Why is she being Mrs. Selvig?

And it's something that we don't ever really give too many clear answers to. I think it's important, though, that you know that what she's doing is obviously something that's like her own mission. And I think we get the feeling that she's kind of doing this outside of what, you know, her actual official duties are. So it does seem like she's living down in this space, right? Does that...

mean that everything up above is somewhat of a model home, there's somewhat of a performance as Selvig and this is her real living space? That was my feeling, is that this is sort of an interesting reveal that she's kind of created this very almost aesthetic, simple, kind of almost monk-like situation down there. Obviously, we've seen the

kitchen upstairs, which is a mess. So she's not really... That's right. I think, yeah, like why would she be living alone in that townhouse in the basement other than that's where she feels most comfortable. And I think we're trying to tell the audience something about her inner life and her private sort of devotion to Keir and to Lumen in a way too. I mean, it's Lumen and Keir are kind of

but I think that's also a question that comes up during the season is, you know, her devotion to Keir versus her devotion to the company or her loyalty to the company, which is an interesting question that we're always thinking about. I guess tonally, when you go from something like this to the next scene, you know, just in terms of transitions, and I think that's something that is really important in the editing of a show or a movie are the transitions. And this transition that goes from here to then Mark finding Keir,

uh, going to the phone in his basement. In a way, the transition there is kind of almost like a corollary from basement to basement. Yeah.

And do you think about that, Jeff? You want to talk about just the difference in types of transitions that we do in the show? Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, it's all about trying to feel like you're in a run of an idea. So go down in the basement, and then the next scene we see is Mark in the basement, just sort of has this feeling of connective tissue. They're completely different scenes, and we're following completely different threads, but there's just this feeling of connection. And then when Mark drives off for work...

We arrive at Lumen and it sort of feels like it's handing off to this early morning meeting in the ficus room with Bert and Irving. And that I actually I remember us trying lots of different combinations in that sequence of scenes up through the kitchenette scene because the Bert and Irving scene you actually used to fall later in the episode and just sort of figuring out over time.

a way to kind of enter the story as like this creepy moment with Cobell. And then we have to sort of, we, we had to reconnect with the phone story thread and then sort of feeling like we're just starting the day. And so we pulled up Burton Irving early because it just sort of felt like, like an early meeting. And then once we're in the kitchenette, that kind of like kicks us off on this very straight line of where's Miss Casey and

to the confrontation with Goebel and all that comes after it. And so putting Burton Irving earlier kind of served a couple of purposes, both tonally and just sort of like what it provided for the other scenes. Yeah. I mean, don't forget the actual, the Goebel scene used to be the end of episode five, actually. Oh, right. That's right. Yeah. And that was, we had such a great moment in the O and D with Dylan and Irving arriving there that, that,

became the end of the episode and that bumped cobell to the next episode which when you watch it now it's like oh obviously it's such a great creepy cold open but that was not the original placement of that that's yeah that's right and that's something that we we do we

quite often, reorder scenes sometimes or sometimes take a scene from one episode and maybe put it into another. I mean, it doesn't happen a lot, and it's never really the plan, but that is part of this process of telling a whole story over the course of a season. And it's, again, coming back to that thing of even if something on the page seems like, OK, that's the end, you know, that's the cliffhanger to the next episode, if it doesn't quite feel right,

We have that ability, especially since we're editing all the episodes before we put the whole thing out, that we can still look at everything as a whole and go, wait a minute. You know, it feels like in five and six here that we're missing something to draw people to the next episode or there's too much information here. So, you know, that's that's something that you have to feel free to try and do. And I had not thought about that, too. But that was I remember that was a big deal for us.

I mean, and that produced one of the best cues that Teddy ever wrote, which is sort of that coming off of Bert's face, you know, that like, such a great cue that we use other places now. And that was because there was such a feeling of like, they come to O&D and that feeling of just arriving there, this new space, and that kicks off the credits. And it just felt great. And I always come back to that. It's like one of the obvious things, but that I learned even working with you on Dan Amora is just how important it is to have...

The end of the episode want to lead you into the next episode. Whatever that version of a cliffhanger or just thought or idea that you want the answer to is going to just pull you to the next, to want to watch it again. I will just say real quick that I think the kitchen scene is really important because it's the first time Dylan really flags something going on between Mark and Helly. And you really see...

And I think that's really, really important.

Yeah. She's paying attention to you. She's kind of flirting with you. Yeah. But like, but kind of like a tomboy. Yes. In a way. And, and it's so obvious. And Dylan's like, dude, what are you, what's going on? Yeah. She's full on like firebrand Helly. And yeah, it's exciting. And she says it like the impression of you is like, that sounds just like me. Yeah. Yeah.

And then her saying praise Kira on the way out the door is just like the cherry on top. Just like, oh, he's completely caught up in this. Yeah. And then, yeah, she sort of gets you a little bit riled up to then go and see Cobell. Right. And then so you're like sort of like the kid in the classroom who started to feel his oats a little bit. And then-

Then you get put right back in your place when you go in to see Cobell. I push way too hard with Cobell, and it kind of blows up in my face a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And then I love that he gets in trouble. So then Mark, you know, goes to Cobell's office because of, I guess, the bad behavior in the last episode. And she's giving him this lecture on accountability. And, you know, Mark, you're starting to feel...

I think, you know, this is, to me, in a way, I feel like this episode is sort of about the radicalization of Mark S. For sure. And feelings for Heli start coming more to the surface. But let's take a listen to this scene where Cobell sort of reams you out in her office. It's not your job to play nursemaid to every new refiner. Okay, so what is my job? Are you really asking me that? Yeah. What is it we actually do here?

We surf gear, you child! And until you get that through your mildewed little brain and hit quota, MDR's hallway privileges are hereby revoked. So get your little ass back to your desk and stay there until you're told to move.

Wow. Yeah. What I remember about that scene when we were editing it, Jeff, is that it was such an intense moment and looking at Adam's reactions that, Adam, you were so sensitive and almost you're like you're almost on the verge of tears. It's almost like like a kid being yelled at. Yeah. Yeah. By an adult, by a parent or a teacher. Yeah.

For me, I mean, I think we all probably have memories as a kid when something like that happened to you and you still feel it to this day. Oh, totally. Yeah. I thought you did such a great job with that. I agree. Yeah. I mean, those reaction shots were just so impactful, so intense. I mean, those reaction shots.

Yeah, but I remember also just trying to figure out the modulation of it because I was like, oh, my God, this is so cool.

If it was a full radicalization, it would be a little soon because it's episode six, right? So it needed to be – like you said, Ben, it needed to be like this admonishment from a parent. So by the time he gets back to the office, he yells at Irving for –

Exactly. What happens. So he's – it's kind of a seesaw for lack of a better term. He's kind of ebbing back and forth in his allegiances and his mixed feelings about this place and isn't quite sure but ultimately makes the decision he makes. But it's not – he's not fully in on kind of – Not fully. Yeah. No, but I think –

Across the episode, it starts to happen more and more. And I really do feel that moment is so much of a metaphor for how sort of the chain of command works somewhere. We see you getting yelled at by your boss and then you go back and you yell at Irving. Yeah.

And it's so clear that, you know, you're reacting to the humiliation that you just experienced from her and then passing it along, you know? Totally. And that always, for me, was such an illuminating moment of how that works. And you see Irving react to me and he's kind of startled and feels terrible. You know, it's just, it's interesting. Yeah. And then you kind of take that in and then you kind of change your...

a little bit. Yeah. And then there's that moment where they all head to O&D and the music kicks in. It's a great cue. It's a great cue. I remember we sort of discovered that, Jeff, didn't we, in terms of like the structuring of the episode. That was one of the things that we were kind of playing around with. Yeah. We actually tried a lot of different music there and then ended up just like nothing was living up to the moment. And Teddy had to write a brand new cue that is just fantastic. It's great. It's great.

just for that moment. And it's, I mean... It's great. It's almost like a... It's like very percussive and it's almost like a marching... And I think, you know, of course, then they go in and discover the back room area that Irving had peeked at before. And this is where we sort of begin to see the organization of the two departments, you know, making contact with each other, even though they're both very skeptical of the other. And I really love just...

sort of when they're talking about what they're doing their their own questions about what they're doing the o and d people and and chris walken is is just so great as their so great you know as their leader you want to take a listen to that yeah yeah go on surely you must have some questions for them so it's called macro data refinement what do you refine uh is that a watering can

We think it might be supplies for the executive weighing upstairs. Then again, last week's outfit had more of an aggressive feel. The hatchets weren't aggressive. Shh, hatchets. Um, we've been trying to figure out how it all fits together. We found a department the opposite way from here that's, uh, well, raising baby goats. Raising baby goats?

Just listening to that, I'm taken by how much space and air there is between lines. We're not exactly a Howard Hawks movie on the show. Yeah. That's Rachel Addington as Elizabeth and Claudia Robinson as Felicia. They're both great. And then, so while that's happening, Dylan sort of sneaks off and steals a little card from one of the areas they've been making stuff. And it looks like an instructional sort of illustration piece.

from maybe like a CPR or Heimlich maneuver poster or something.

Instead, it seems almost vaguely violent. Like how to whip your arms around landing in a businessman's storm. That's very weird. Jeff, do you have any theories about what that is, what that card means? What I was thinking while we were editing this is that it almost feels like Lumen's kind of like building an army. Because they're making hatchets and there's instructions on self-defense or something. And it has sort of a weird militant kind of vibe to it.

Yeah, but yet they're like dressed like businessmen in the cards. Yes. I mean, everything is weird with Lumen. I remember shooting this scene. I had this like the little speech at the end of the scene and I was a little unsure about it. I just wasn't sure how to attack it and how to do it. So I...

I asked if I could go last because we go through and shoot everyone's singles throughout the day. You just kind of pop each person off throughout the day. And I usually like to go last because I like to get as many runs at it before I'm on camera by myself saying my lines. And so John thinks I'm crazy for wanting to do that because he likes to go early so he can have it be fresh and stuff. But I like to wait. Yeah. I have to say that's kind of an interesting –

I know you, obviously, I know you like it that way because we've been doing it for a while. And it's interesting because I think it's, for me, if I did that, it's a little bit risky sometimes, I think, for me, because I feel like sometimes you're out of gas by the end, too. Not you, me. But you seem to do well with that. Oh, no, it's backfired a few times, that's for sure. Yeah.

But with this- It's a strange thing with that, isn't it? Like sometimes- It is weird. It's sort of kind of, it's sort of rolling the dice a little bit, especially with a scene like this because there's so many people to get singles of. But I was also freaked out because Christopher Walken was there and I had this like speech that wasn't long or anything, but it had to have a certain-

quality to it and I wasn't sure how to do it but throughout the day we were doing it over and over again and I finally thought I kind of figured it out and finally we do it and the scenes over and I remember kind of feeling like it was okay, but I wasn't sure and walk in walked by me He kind of walked behind me as he was passing me and as he did he just grabbed my elbow and gave it a squeeze and

and kept going and that was everything. That was all I needed. It was incredible. Just the best. - That's the best. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's the best. All right, well, that feels like a good place to take a break and we'll be right back after this. - At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way.

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And she sings to you, which is one of my favorite Patricia moments. She sings the key or hymn to you in a way that's, you know, meant to be punitive. And then later hums it as she's comforting the baby. Well, that's even weirder. Yes. Yes. I mean, that's full on.

Hand that rocks the cradle. Yeah. She's Rosemary's baby. It's all different things going on with her holding that baby. But then we see you in the Audi verse and you're on a date with Alexa and who's Devin's doula. And Nikki James. Yeah. And, and, you know, she's giving you a second chance, right? Yeah. Yeah. She's pretty kind. I think surprising based on the way you treated her. Yeah. And she notices your swollen knuckles. Yeah.

So we see that something happened in the break room, maybe that involved your knuckles. Yeah. And Mark, Mark says it's some accident involving a water jug, or at least that's what they tell me. So he seems to have some awareness that there might be some bullshit coming his way from Lumen. At least that's the way he's playing it off to her.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's pretty weird and chilling, that cut from your hand on the door to the break room to your swollen knuckles. It's just an intimation that there's definitely some sort of violent thing that's happening there with you. So then you guys end up at...

like a punk show in Kier, an outdoor punk show in Kier that June, Petey's daughter, her band is playing at. Yeah, I recognize her on a poster and for whatever reason, Mark wants to

go to this and it's sort of this weird need that brought him to Petey's funeral in the first place. He's just sort of drawn to this family. I think it's a bunch of mixed up feelings of guilt and all kinds of stuff that's sort of making him want to continue contact with this family. And then you get to this punk show where the punk band is singing basically this sort of anti-Lumen song, Fuck You Lumen. Yeah.

Yeah. And this is, to me, also another place where we start to see you, again, getting more and more indoctrinated into this idea of being willing to, you know, kind of, and this is Audi Mark, but still, it's like I look at kind of both Audi Mark and Eddie Mark are going through this process concurrently in different ways, but you're starting to be able to say out loud, fuck you, Lumen, in a group of people.

Yeah, there's hints of it on the date when he seems self-aware about Lumen and how kind of creepy it might be. And then, yeah, at this punk show, he's fully kind of starts yelling, fuck you, Lumen. And I feel like part of it is you're there and you don't want to seem uncool. So, of course, you're going to say this. But I think there's something to it that he starts repeating it and Alexa and he start yelling it out loud. And it feels good for one reason or the other.

And you kind of connect over that, really. Yeah. You end up going home together, which is, you know, it feels like there's kind of a little bit of a breakthrough there. It's a big deal. It's a big deal for Audie Mark to be moving on like this. I think the rock show itself looks really cool. And this is something that I think shows get wrong or movies get wrong all the time of live music and kind of a punk band or whatever. Sometimes it just feels cheesy and off. But this has a really, I always thought this felt off.

authentic and cool and had a real feeling to it.

Yeah, that was Aoife. Aoife McArdle, who directed the episode. She's from Ireland. She comes out of music videos and commercials. And I think it was very important for her to find a real band and to be able to just make sure all of the atmosphere, the people who were there at the concert felt authentic in this version of what a punk band in the town of Cair would be.

in the world of our show. - And I love that sort of idea that there's this sort of cultural sort of awareness of severance and this kind of antipathy that's coming out in the rebellion that's happening within the culture towards severance. - I just love that side of the story that's like in the dinner scene in episode one or the whole mind collective, just the sense that there's an opinion about the severance procedure

in the public that it just makes the world so much bigger seeing it from that perspective. Yeah. It's creating its own culture and its own backlash and all of this. And we should also say the great Cassidy Layton as, as June. It's terrific. Yes. Yes. She, and yeah, and she's like playing, playing guitar and just really, and Michael Chiazzo is the lead singer of the punk band. He's really good. He's great. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that's an important part of the world of the show is the awareness of severance in the society and in culture. And we've always talked about that a lot, about how much to balance that in the story in terms of being the awareness of it in the world, but also not wanting to go down paths that would take us away from the core story of the characters.

Because there's a version of it where you could really go and follow the state senator and what's going on and all of that. And that's important. But at this point, we're really wanting to stay with Mark's story. And then we're in the closet. And Milchick is basically awakening Dylan's innie in Dylan's closet, which we see for the first time Dylan's outie world in some way. We see a little kid watching television.

watching a cartoon and then all of a sudden Dylan is awake in his closet and that's a very startling moment Dylan I've awoken you at home I need to know where you put it where I put what the ideographic card you took from OND I saw the footage of you taking it did you smuggle it out is it here holy shit is this my house listen you have no idea how sensitive this information is

"If someone paid you to smuggle out that card..." "No, no, I just, I put it in the bathroom, second stall behind the toilet." "Thank you." "I didn't even know what it was." "That's fine too." "Daddy!" "What the fuck?" "We told you to count to a thousand and wait outside." "Is that my kid?" "End it." Count to a thousand? Jesus. That's probably why the kid came in, because he couldn't get up to a thousand.

Yeah, this is such an important scene. We learn that Dylan has a son, that the card he took was incredibly important and sensitive, obviously, and that the severance transition can actually happen outside of the building. That's a huge, huge moment for all these reasons. And it's very...

Really jarring, I think, too, because all of a sudden, like, there's this intense Milchik in his face, and it's just so disorienting. And, of course, you know, this is an important story point that's going to kick off a lot of events that happened in the last part of the season. But I just love this scene because it was so scary, really, that all of a sudden when something goes wrong, it kind of reminds me a little bit of when Grainer finds Heli when she's trying to hang herself in the...

elevator and the way that he's kind of just like in this sort of like emergency mode of just sort of like getting Mark out of there. It's like when something goes bad in this world with this whole system at Lumen, it can get messy quickly and it can get very intense quickly. So it goes from like the nice kind of cool, calm Milchik to like super intense.

Yeah. Now, Ben and Jeff, can you walk us through putting this scene together and the challenges of making this scene work? I think like it's important to keep in mind that you're in Dylan's perspective. And so the sort of very tight coverage, staying very tight and sort of staying in Dylan's POV and only sort of revealing a wider shot for a moment. But it's like it's very much like

claustrophobic and sort of like a where am I feeling that sort of kind of puts you in Dylan's head for this very mysterious new moment. Also, Zach is doing such a good job in that scene of really just being overwhelmed by

this space that he's in. Imagine, you know, Dylan is all of a sudden he's at probably in the elevator and then all of a sudden he's in his closet. And so he's taking that in the whole time during the scene and he's answering these questions but he's never not sort of tripping out on the fact

that he's in this world. And then all of a sudden, this little kid comes in and hugs him. And it's like, oh, what is going on? And then Milchik pulls the kid away. And I love the look that the kid does, looks up at Milchik. You could just tell he doesn't like him. Yeah, I mean, not only has Dylan never been anywhere but MDR before, he's never seen a kid before. It's all huge.

Right. Yeah. And there's another moment in this scene where Mark is telling O and D that they saw a department with baby goats. And then I just remember you really feeling very strongly that like that, that it was such a funny moment between Dylan and Helly that we had to have some reference to that in that moment. And we had to actually like dig through the takes and just create a moment, like find a reaction moment.

from Dylan, we kind of like rolls his eyes or it's like, okay, fine. It wasn't actually a room with baby goats. And then a moment from Helly reacting, but it's all just in facial expressions that we just had to sort of find in the edit to create them, both Dylan reacting to that there was a baby goat room and Helly reacting to the fact that Dylan now sees that she was telling the truth just to tie it back to their previous conversation. And then basically Mark, Mark, Mark wakes up in bed,

with Alexa and has this moment of wanting to get that phone out of the garbage. What do you think's motivating that? Well, after seeing June at the concert, uh,

PD is on his mind. I think it's kind of refreshed this guilt that he feels and this unanswered question in his life. And I think that all the stuff PD was saying about Lumen in episode one and two has just been in the back of his mind. He's compartmentalized it away. He's kind of

severed it in a way, but it's in his consciousness and life and putting it away, but this refreshed it. And so he's thinking about Petey. He wakes up thinking about it. And that's a good example of...

editorially, you know, we just put in this quick shot of PD dropping down to his knees. Oh, it's hugely helpful. Yeah. And it's with no sound. And I always find that really affecting editorially when you can put in an image, sometimes if it is a flashback or a memory or something, just literally with no sound design behind it, it makes it feel like a thought that's happening in that person's head that you're watching. Yeah.

And that really makes a difference there. Yeah, the no sound thing, I think I remember. Like initially it was sort of like a like a little thing. Right, right, right. Taking out the sound. I remember like it makes such a difference because it almost makes it more internal. Yeah, yeah. And then you go downstairs and you and you fish the phone out of the garbage and you basically talk to Rigabi for the first time. Yeah, the second I put the battery in the phone, it's just ringing. Yeah.

Yeah. And I love how Aoife shot that too, where it's a high wide shot above you that slowly pushes in and we hold for a very long time. I think tension and mounting sort of feeling of what's going to happen by holding a shot for a long time that...

Sometimes it's right and sometimes it's not right to do depending I think in our show we sort of have bought ourselves the space to be able to do something like that sometimes where in this world where attention spans are a lot shorter you kind of have to buy into the fact that people are gonna be drawn in and Want to go along with the pacing of the show which sometimes is not not the quickest on the show. Yeah, I

Do you think about that a lot, Jeff? I mean, just as an editor in terms of how pacing on this show works. Yeah. I mean, the pacing on the show feels always very deliberate, which is not an easy thing to pull off because if you have moments where you want to hold, you kind of have to earn it in a way. And it kind of depends on a lot of the stuff that's leading up to that. And so...

It's all great to like have a great shot that can hold. But if the stuff surrounding it isn't sort of allowing you to pause and hold, then there's a rhythm to the whole thing beyond just like the rhythm within the scene itself. And so the flow has to kind of like allow you to do that. I feel like on the show, we're always sort of striving to make it feel very deliberate.

Right, to make sure everything's earned and there for a reason. Yeah, and I think there's something in our show, too, where it's sort of the builds that happen on a macro and a micro level. Like, you could say, like, on the macro level of the first season, it sort of starts slower and then sort of ramps up. And I think that's something within a show that has suspense and a thriller aspect to it. You have to figure out when you're building up to something and then when you're sort of

Then resetting, recalibrating, and letting it build again. Because you can't just do one build the whole time. Oh, yeah. Especially when you're, like, on this show in particular, when we're balancing comedy with this darker vibe. The two things...

which sometimes are happening exactly at the same time, which is really interesting in itself. But then a lot of times it's sort of figuring out how we are handing off from one to the other so that it doesn't have this whiplash feeling of like, wait, what is the show I'm watching now? It's sort of, it all feels like part of a whole where it's like a release to go into the comedy at just the right moment and sort of like a welcome return to the darker, mysterious stuff

at the right moment. And a lot of that is like structural, like the ordering of the scenes and like the back half of this episode in particular, like

It's not one continuous build. Like, it's not like you're following one character doing a thing that takes you from one scene to the other. It's a lot of different characters doing different things and trying to find a way so that it feels like one continuous build. Right, right. That they're interconnected somehow. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of... I remember trying to find that order that gives that feeling. And so just...

trying something and seeing where the flow breaks and then trying something else. And that comes back to the trying stuff where it's just, you know, as opposed to talking about it, just trying stuff and feeling free to just try things that don't work until you hit on something that feels right. And that being part of the process. Yeah. When it clicks and it's like, of course you have to go from this to that. And of course you feel it. It's like a spark that goes off. Well, thank you so much, Jeff, for doing this. It's so great. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. This was really fun.

That does it for episode six of the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, Hide and Seek. I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott. Next up, very exciting, episode seven, Defiant Jazz. We have some cool guests. Yeah, who are the guests? It's Dax Shepard and Kristen Bell. Whoa, okay. Yeah, I mean, like the master podcaster himself.

Oh, I love that. Just as a rhyme, the Master Podcaster. Master Blaster Podcaster. Master Blaster Podcaster and KB. Those are their morning zoo crew names. Yes. You can stream all episodes of season one of Severance on Apple TV Plus right now. And season two is premiering January 17th. You can listen to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever else you love to listen to us.

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen and Naomi Scott.

This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We have additional engineering from Javi Crucis and Davy Sumner. Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff. And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, Jean-Pablo Antonetti,

Martin Valderutten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Ager. And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management. We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, Marie-Alexa Cavanaugh, and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Adam Scott. I'm Ben Stiller. And we will see you next time.

Hey Adam. Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know, I think it's... it's... Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives.

Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian. Oh my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize,

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