S2E1: Hello, Ms. Cobel (with Tramell Tillman)
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Hey Adam. Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know, I think it's... it's... Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives.

Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian. Oh my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize,

and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year. So that would equal out, like if we're playing with like, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah. That's the improvement. I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close. Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great. So why not keep your team unsevered?

In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at Atlassian.com slash Confluence. That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-F-L-U-E-N-C-E. Hey, everybody. Before we get started, we just want to say a word about

the terrible tragedy in Los Angeles and the fires that have been wreaking havoc all over and just say that our thoughts and our hearts go out to all those affected. Yeah, and I know so many people who've been affected and their lives have been turned upside down. I know you know people, Adam, and just, you know, sending a lot of love and support to people and

We're going to have a link in the show notes, too, if you want to have somewhere that you can help support the relief efforts. And just also a huge thanks to the first responders, the firefighters, all the people who have been working so hard to put an end to what's going on there. Our hearts are with you. We're sending our love and support to our friends, family, and listeners in Los Angeles.

This is Tramiel Tillman, or Mr. Milchick, your funky DJ, here on the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam.

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. And today, the wait is over. It's the moment we've all been waiting for. It's time to discuss the Season 2 premiere. Yes, finally, here we are. Not only that, but we got some new perks for the listeners this season.

We couldn't send everybody finger traps, but we did open up our very own hotline. You can call the telephone post box of Lumen Industries Severed Floor at 212-830-3816. That's 212-830-3816.

Leave us a message with a question and we might just answer it on the air. And we've got a brand new segment for season two. At the end of every episode, Zach Cherry is going to give us his own predictions for what happens in the following week's episode.

Yeah. This is, you know, just sort of a wild card because, I mean, who knows where Zach's coming from. And Zach, you know, we often go to Zach because we know he's clairvoyant. Yes. He definitely has a record of being able to predict things in the future. 100%. You know, I just want to make sure that he knows we're talking about Severance, not Fallout or any of the other shows that he does. 37 shows he's on. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so here's what we're going to do in this episode. You and I are going to talk about the premiere episode, which is titled Hello, Ms. Cabell, which was written by series creator Dan Erickson and directed by me. And anything from the episode is fair game for us to discuss. So consider this your spoiler warning. Make sure to watch the first episode of the second season before listening to this. Yes, Adam, you should do that.

too. Yeah, I need to get on that. Yeah. And then later in the episode, we're going to be joined by Tramiel Tillman. Yes. Who plays Mr. Milchick. I mean, it's

Tremell Tillman. Incredible. Come on. I think you could consider him a breakout character. 100%. Yeah. He's amazing. Well, he'll answer our questions. I have a lot of questions for him. And also, he's going to answer your questions, you, the listener, because we have the hotline. So that's going to be fun, too. That's right. And then we're going to hear what Zach has to say about this episode's cliffhanger and what he thinks will go down in episode two. Sound good? Yes. I'm looking forward to that. Me, too. Yeah.

Okay, should we just dig into the premiere here? Yeah, I mean, and oh my goodness, here we are talking about the premiere. Finally. I mean, I have to say, I thought about it a lot and just thinking about how do you come back after three years away, the expectation, the cliffhanger, needless to say, we felt there was like, we wanna come back with some energy. Yes, and you had asked me early on

What would you do if this happened to you? Yeah, yeah. That was like... I think it's usually the best place to start with, you know, when you're trying to figure out what's the logical thing to show or do in a story. It's like, well, what would really happen, right? Right. And...

Okay, any Mark has just seen this picture of Miss Casey and he realizes that she's alive and she's his Audi's wife. And then all of a sudden he's back in the elevator. Right. And I asked you, what would you do, Adam? And I just my first kind of knee jerk reaction was I would just start running and trying to find her.

I would just run towards the wellness center. Right. And so that for me was like, oh, great. We can do another running in the hallway scene because we haven't done that before. Right. And it was actually really fun to think about because I felt like, oh, this could be a nice sort of mirror scene.

to season one's first scene in MDR, when we first see you come off the elevator and you walk through all the hallways to get to MDR. And so I thought, okay, let's tell everybody this is gonna be like a little bit more jacked up, a little more energy, a little more, the stakes are a little bit higher.

And let's do this in a way that we haven't seen before, hopefully. Yeah. And it was incredible to kind of watch gradually over time. You build the sequence out from that conversation to what it eventually became. But you were really kind of building it in your mind and with your team over a period of time. And it just kept growing and getting more detailed and intricate and really told its own little story here.

much to the consternation of our scheduling team. Yes. And, you know, but that's also part of like, I think what you have to do when you're thinking about these things is like, what are these moments that were, you know, three years down the line and wherever it's going to be, you know, we didn't think it would be three years, by the way, when we did it. But, you know, what is going to be exciting to see and how do we figure that out? So it was a great collaboration between, of course, Jessica Lee Gagné, our cinematographer, and,

And Jeremy Hindle, our production designer and our gaffer and our grip and all of the people on the camera team to figure out our visual effects people to figure out how to do these different shots that would all feel like one shot. And I think there are about 10 different pieces in it.

And we shot those 10 different pieces over a period of, what would you say, five months? Yeah. And it was only because we were shooting other things and we realized that we were kind of trying to jam this into our schedule. So something that on the page was maybe half a page or three quarters of a page, if that, saying that like Mark runs through different hallways to get to the wellness ended up being probably 10%.

10 different pieces where each one had a different need in terms of what had to be done with the set. Like it was one where we had to do it completely with green screen and have you on a treadmill and have a motion control camera come around in front of you and do all this stuff. And then there was one where you had to pull one of the walls out.

And we were using this machine called a bolt arm. That's a motion control robot arm that the camera is on that you can program in moves to. And so that thing takes up a lot of space. So our normal sort of layout of all the hallways had to get sort of, you know, torn up in certain. And so then when you're doing that, you can't shoot other scenes in the hallways. So we had to schedule it at times when maybe you guys would be shooting a scene in a different set. Right. And that was a lot of logistics and.

our AD team and everybody on the show kind of got, I think, really got into it. It just started out with some storyboards that went into what we call a pre-vis, which is a computer animation of the shot.

that has the actual sort of size of the lenses. And, you know, it's basically like, yeah, the sort of like bad animation that then you work off of as a template and then figure out how you do the different parts of the shots based on what that is. I remember you showing me the previs and just being like, oh, wow, this,

this is going to be a lot of running. And it was. And now kind of a few years later, people are seeing this sequence now and asking me if I trained this

to do this sequence. And of course I should have trained to do this sequence. You should just say yes. I know I should. Nobody knows. But you know what? The training was doing it because I got into good shape from doing all of this running over and over again. You should have said you trained by watching Tom Cruise run in Mission Impossible. Which is actually what I did. Okay.

That is the best way to do it. It is. Yeah. Anyone that wants to train for running of any kind, just watch Tom Cruise. Because then he does all the work. That's right. And then you can just, right? He's doing it for the rest of us. Yes. And then we picked a song that's, you know, I think like really kind of fun and jazzy and has the vibe of the sort of

you know, of the tone of the music that we have when we're down at MDR sometimes. And that's by the great Les McCann. It's a song called Burning Coal that he, I think he recorded it in like 1968 or 69. And he actually just passed away last year. Oh, he did? Yeah, he was a jazz great. And so it was really fun to then work with Jeff Richman, our editor, in terms of figuring out the edit and the timing of

the song and with our music editor to really figure out how to make that track work and then bringing in teddy shapiro's score in the back half of the of the scene to kind of like transition into the more sort of you know thrillery and ominous vibe that it ends when you finally get to

the wellness area and it's been sort of disappeared. Yeah. It's just sort of erased. You see the faint outline of wellness center on the, on the wall, which my immediate instinct when I saw that was that in and of itself is probably a mind game of some sort. Yeah. Yeah. Being able to still see it a little bit. And that was a Jeremy Hindle idea too, to like open the door. Cause I think Dan had written it that they were boarded up.

And then Jeremy Hindle showed me a rendering one day where it was just sort of the outline of the doors. I was like, oh, this is so weird. And then I wanted to make sure that we had the outline of where the painting was that Bert and Irving looked at. That's right. And kind of do like a How the Grinch Stole Christmas sort of like, you know, the pictures are off the wall and there's just sort of like a hook hanging there. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was my image. But, you know, like sort of the outline of the dust where the picture was. Yes.

And yeah, that was really that was really challenging for you and challenging for everybody. But we it was fun. Yeah. And it's really fun to fun to watch. It was our own little like side project while making the show. Exactly. And when we finished it, we had our own little rap. It was it was really, really fun.

So at the end of that whole run, you discover this new team in MDR. Yeah. These three strangers who are played by Alia Shawkat, Bob Balaban, and Stefano Carinante, who's a wonderful Italian actor. So great. What a cool group of people, too. And the crazy thing was, this is the first thing we shot. So when I came back to work on Severance, it felt like I was just working with a new cast. Yeah.

Yes. John, Zach, and Britt hadn't started yet. And so the first...

what was it, two weeks that we worked with this group of people? Yeah, which was kind of mirroring what was going on in the scene. And for me, it was a thrill to work with Bob Balaban, who I've known for a number of years, but is just a real acting legend. I mean, he's been in so many great films, an amazing character actor, going all the way back to Midnight Cowboy. Let's play a little bit of that clip where you talk to him when you're trying to...

trying to figure out what's going on. Great. We showed up about an hour before you did. It's a little crammed compared to our old MDR, but I love the green carpet. Ours was a creme brulee and the keyboards were puce. They were purple. No, they were puce. I know because it makes me nauseous and I hate sweets. Speaking of which, how much do we see of that Mr. Milkshake? Milch. What? It's Milchick, not milkshake. And I don't know.

I love how Bob and Alia have this bickering relationship. They've obviously been stuck together for a while. Yes, they definitely don't love each other. What else I also love here is just what we learn about these other branches, supposedly. Whoever these people are, the Italian guy is talking about how they had...

they didn't have an elevator. They had ropes. Yes. Right. For in the perpetuity wing, instead of the, the like wax figures, they had brooms and ropes representing the cure. They were very, they were very poor. Yeah. Um, it was a poor, uh, branch, but at alias, uh,

perpetuity wing, they had animatronic figures. Right, exactly. Yeah. So it's these little things that, you know, are they real? Are they not? They seem real to these people. And it's, you know, I love the details that Dan puts in there. And to me also, it was just very funny, this sort of banter that's going on between them. It's sort of a bizarro world alt-

banter that's happening that happens in the other cubicles that we, you know, don't follow in the show. That's right. And you see that they too are micro focused in on really frivolous, stupid stuff. It's their whole life. They're talking about the carpet and the keyboards and all these weird

weird things that are huge parts of their life. Yeah. Yeah. And it just, it's that interesting thing, almost like with people, you know, versus people you don't know where you could be in the same sort of, uh, you know, familiar setting with people, but when it's different people, it just feels so weird. You feel that with Mark. He's like, Oh, he's just in another, it's just feels, it's almost more lonely. Yes. And then Ali, it takes you to the closet and we learned that the closet has been basically boarded up and turned into just sort of like a cabinet.

Right, which is where they hatched all of their plans. So they're just sort of erasing everything that happened. Yeah, yeah. We're getting the feeling that Lumen has made some changes, but they're not really talking about it. And then we meet someone named Miss Wong. Yes, Miss Wong. The great Sarah Bach. Yes.

Yes, what a wonderful young actress. Sarah came in and read for the show, and she was so good and so centered and inscrutable, and yet...

you know, much the way I feel with, with Tramiel Tillman, who's such a warm guy and we're going to be talking to him in a little bit. Yeah. Uh, but you know, his Milcha character is so cold and so it's, you know, there's, there's life there. And of course there's, you know, something underneath it. That was what makes it so interesting. But,

Sarah is able to do that also. And I found it fascinating to watch her because she seems so mature. And she was only 15, I think, or 16 when we started shooting. And she's seems to be now coming to do the ball game with you, which is what Milchick did in the first season. Yeah.

That's right. Her own version of it. Yeah. And it's got she's got like a smaller little red ball and you're doing it at the table. And again, it's with these people, these, you know, this alternate reality where you do get the sense of what their whole sort of dynamic is. And we also get the sense that Miss Wong, you know, is going to be a formidable figure.

authority figure for you. Yeah, she is very much in charge and does not want anyone to mess with her or knock her or her game off balance. And Mark makes a decision pretty quickly that he doesn't really want to share anything with these people or with her. Yeah, there's this moment after the introductions where Mark W. asks her a very pertinent question. Mark W.? Why are you a child? Because of when I was born.

So when we shot this, I immediately just thought this is going to be a classic severance moment and line. Like, it was just so funny. Both Bob's delivery of the question and then Sarah's just...

deadpan of her response is just so great. It's those great moments where you just feel so lucky to be on a show. Okay, let's take a quick break, but don't worry. Unlike the Wellness Center, we will be right back.

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You sort of force the hand of Mr. Milchick and say that you want the team back and we think you're going to get fired. We don't know what's happening. He shoves you in the elevator. We don't know. And we're in your point of view. And by the way, this is the only time that we have an episode where it's all innie.

Right. And this was something we had never done before. So we're staying in Mark's point of view the whole time. Right. So we did this thing where you sever transition up and then you sever transition back down. Right. Which was, we call it the Zolly, the in and out, you know, zooming in, dollying out or dollying in, zooming out. Right. And we called it a double Zolly for this one because we had the first transition where you would have kind of

come out of the elevator, but that we stayed with you with any Mark's consciousness and had you sever back in. So we were feeling what any Mark would feel. So we actually shot it without cutting. We actually shot me going any to Audi and then back to any. Yes. And you had to do that, which, you know, at this point you've perfected the

the Zali transition for the acting part of it, which I've always said is the most important part of it is what you're doing as an actor. But you had to go from innie to outie to innie. And then back. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And so it was the camera going in and out, in and out. It was something we'd never done. Right. And it was fun and weird. And then all of a sudden we have this sort of like

little sequence of you kind of, you know, going to work, leaving, going to work, coming to work, leaving, and sort of like we get the monotony of it from your point of view, the Innie point of view. Yeah, we get to experience what it's actually like as an Innie to leave and come back to work. Yes. Which is interesting. Yes, and you try to trick Milchick saying that Mark W., Bob Balaban's character, has...

you know, tried to, um, basically has written a note that you wrote and it gets found out. And then you try to get in touch with the board and that doesn't work. Right. And all of a sudden we think you're going to be fired and the elevator opens and you see that there's a new painting on the wall that was never there. Yeah. That's a very ominous sort of mural of, um,

four, it seems like these four prisoners buried up to their heads in the sand. Right. With some sort of an army. And Keir Egan is there. Keir Egan is there, exactly, in charge. With a sword. Yes, yes. It's very daunting, the picture. Yeah. And as you're taking that in, all of a sudden, the door opens, Dylan comes back. Dylan. And then Irving comes back. Yeah. And then Heli comes back. And you're all...

together again for the first time. So my question is the grabbing and forcing the hand of Milchik and getting in touch with the board seems to have had an effect of some sort because it's after that that everybody comes back. Yes, we don't know what happened. No. And any Mark doesn't know what happened, but he wasn't fired. No.

He's back, and all of a sudden his team is back. Right. And the other people are gone. So something may have struck a chord. Who knows? Yeah, who knows? Who knows what happened? And then Miss Wong shows up in MDR and says, we're going to the break room. Right. Everybody's going to the break room. Which is scary, obviously, for these people. Yes. And then we see the new break room has been...

Redone. As like a rec room of sorts. It's a very, yeah. It's got some cool furniture. It's- Some awesome posters. It's got posters. It's brighter. There's a big screen video projector. Yeah. It's like one of those video projector screens you see in rec rooms in like the late 80s, early 90s. And there's like a weird game on the wall. We don't quite know what that is. That's right.

That's right. And then Milchick is like very, very nice and basically says, hey, take a look at this. And it's sort of a video that's been produced to kind of explain to you what happened. Yeah, it's like a welcome video, but also sort of a catch up. Yeah. And it happens to have been done as an animated entertainment for you. Yeah. So it's.

Claymation. Well, technically it's not claymation. I think that's your Parks and Rec. Okay. Claymation. What is it exactly? Which, by the way, is one of the classic episodes of all time. Oh, my God. You've always loved the claymation. With a stand in the place where you are. That's right. It's like a second and a half. That's right. And it took so long to make that.

Anyway, so yeah, we thought it would be interesting and apparently Lumen thought it'd be interesting to do this video in a way that turns the MDR refiners into these little puppets that was stop motion puppetry. And it was,

done with a guy named Duke Johnson, who's a brilliant animator, who did Animalisa with Charlie Kaufman and his Starburns studio. And we did it, you know, with them for real. It's a real stop motion over the course of a couple of weeks. It was the first thing that we shot for the whole season. But within the episode, what's fun is that, you know, to me, I grew up watching these animated Christmas specials that were on in the

early 70s. And one in particular that I love was The Year Without a Santa Claus that had Mickey Rooney as the voice of Santa Claus, Shirley Booth as Mrs. Claus. And it's, they have to basically, Santa thinks that Christmas, nobody cares about Santa Claus anymore. So he says he's taking Christmas off.

and they have to figure out a way for the children of the world to let Santa know that they want him. And so they send Santa and the elves, he has his two elves, Jingle and Jangle Elf, and they go down to South Town, USA on one of the reindeer, I think Vixen. And they have to fly between the Heatmiser and the Snowmiser, who, the Heatmiser's in charge of all the hot weather in the world and the Snowmiser's in charge of all the wintry weather.

Anyway. This is something that you watched over and over as a kid, like every Christmas. Yeah, like also the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer one. Yeah, of course. I've definitely seen that one. Rudolph and the Baby New Year. And it was Rankin and Bass. Yeah. They were the animators. And these are classics. They're on every year. You can get them every year. But there's one moment where the Heatmiser-

his hair goes on fire. Oh, yeah. You know, because he's orange and red and he's voiced by George S. Irving and Snow Miser is voiced by Dick Shawn, these two great character actors. Anyway, we did a little moment with Irving that's kind of a nod to the Heat Miser song. Yeah.

Yeah. When he says, let's burn this place to the ground. Let's burn this place to the ground. There's like these little Irvings with their hair on fire. So, you know, it ends up being what they call the macro dat uprising. Yeah. And also another interesting thing about it is that the main character and the narrator of the film is the building. And they're kind of turning the Lumen building into this kind of jolly place.

happy-go-lucky, inviting kind of father figure to all of Lumen and its employees. That's right. Yeah. Anyway, that happens and basically, you know, you guys are told by Milchik like, hey, I'm not going to be your jailer. Yeah. And,

And, you know, no one's going to be watching you. And of course, nobody really believes any of this. That's the funny thing about it is that all four of us immediately kind of just shrug it off. Just like, okay, whatever, dude.

I think it's so sinister that they would do something that was so upbeat and fun and childlike. But basically, we're learning within that little piece that they've recorded your voices because there's a recording of you making your speech at O&D and recording of Irving saying, let's burn this place to the ground that are actual recordings. So it's even in my mind, it's even more ominous. Yeah.

And it kind of goes to show that maybe that closet that they've covered up, they've covered it up for a reason because it was the only place where they had some privacy. Because obviously they weren't able to record and didn't know about them taking advantage of the OTC. Yeah. And now they just have to kind of like go, you know, screw it. We just got to like whisper and talk to each other somehow. Right. And everybody wants to get caught up on what happened out there. Right. And we learn, you know, that what you saw...

which is the big news. We learned that Helly is kind of, it seems like she doesn't want to tell the truth about what she saw. Yeah, like she's embarrassed about what she saw or something. And also, Helly noticed in an earlier scene that the camera that was always in MDR is no longer. That's right. Yeah, they're being told basically that like, hey, you don't have to

all like huddle up in the closet. He's kind of letting them know that we knew you were doing that. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's interesting that Helly doesn't want to tell the truth. It's interesting that Irving is basically still getting over this really traumatic moment of being at Bert's door and wants to leave and kind of wants to end it all. Yeah. And Dylan is able to sort of talk him off the ledge and everybody...

ends up back in MDR. Wonderful scene between John and Zach there. Great scene, yeah. Love that scene. Where also Irving tells Dylan about the Black Hallway for the first time. Yes, yes.

Um, and then everybody's back around the cubicle and we kind of like resetting for the beginning of a season two. And the music cue there is really terrific. Yes. Yeah. That's a great song, uh, by the allergies, which are kind of a DJ group. Oh, cool. Yeah. It's a great kind of.

We're resetting in a way. Everything is now different, but we're seeing them sit in their familiar spots. Yeah. It's a really fun moment. I love that. Yeah. And then that last little moment on your monitor and like we see a flicker of it looks like Gemma possibly. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. So we don't quite know what that is. And we see that it says Cold Harbor on it, which is another file that it seems like that's the file you're working on. Huh. Interesting. Okay. Okay. Well, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll be joined by our very special guest, Tramell Tillman.

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Our guest today is the wonderful, incredibly talented actor, Mr. Tramiel Tillman, who plays our new floor manager, Mr. Milchick. Yes! Also known by some as Mr. Milkshake. I'm so sorry about that. Tramiel, welcome to the pod. Happy you're here. You're so great. It's so exciting to talk to you. We didn't get to talk to you in season one, so this is awesome. I'm glad. I'm glad I got this opportunity here. Listen...

You know, he's the boss now. Yeah. He's doing big things. He has moved up. We're excited. I'm excited. Yeah. Mr. Milchick, first of all, thank you for being here. You're just incredible. Thank you. Obviously, we are very, very fond of you and Mr. Milchick. I find Mr. Milchick, and I know the audience does as well, just fascinating because...

He's in this position of authority and sometimes has to do things with the innies that feels ethically dodgy. But you feel for Mr. Milchick. He's a fascinating person and wonderful.

I'm just curious, like, what it was about the character right off the bat that interested you, and where did all of that sort of barely hidden empathy and complexity come from? Well, first, I gotta say thank you so much for seeing that the man is not completely a monster. Oh, yeah. I think there's a couple threats out there for a mill chick. They want to see him in the streets and lay hands on him. But, you know, I think what's so important about...

building Milchik was to find his heart and find his pulse, his rhythm, what drives him in this space. And he's the keeper of all these secrets, right? So he knows everything, but all of it is in service of Lumen, in service of Kier. So for me, finding a way in was really finding depth and connection with the innies.

And as long as I can get some idea of trust with them, if I can get them to play along, I'm winning. But one of the interesting things I think in the dynamic of the show is that we never quite know

where you're at in terms of your feelings for them, what you're up to. As you said, like some people see Milchik as a very scary character because you don't know, you don't know what's going on there. And sometimes he's scary. Sometimes he's charming. Sometimes he seems connected. Sometimes he seems, you know, that he's totally putting up this facade. And so it was fun over the course of the season to,

to have those discussions with you and you know we didn't know each other before and maybe we could just talk a little bit about your background where you came from as an actor where did it all start for you Jamel because I know you did some things before you went into acting I did I did I did some of everything you know for me it started in the church I grew up in the church

in Landover, Maryland. And it was very important to my mom that I was active. It wasn't just all about schoolwork. She wanted to make sure that I was well-rounded. And she got involved with this play at the church and they needed somebody to play her son. And what better person to play her son than I guess her son, right? But when I was approached about doing the play, I was terrified. I didn't want to do it. I was incredibly shy as a kid.

I didn't like standing up in front of people. I didn't like talking to people. I didn't like engaging with strangers. So I just wanted to be in my room reenacting scenes from movies like bad boys, you know? So she encouraged me to do this play and something just connected for me. I had one line and one direction. I was supposed to say hi and sit on the couch. That was it. That was it.

And when I did, something just lit in me. And I said, this is amazing. This is so much fun. And what was it about it that was exciting? I think it was sitting on the couch in front of all of these people who I wasn't really sure I knew. Some I did, some I didn't. And just existing together in a space, just breathing.

And I didn't feel afraid when I was on stage. It was something, all of the barriers, the covers, the mask, they just melted away. And I can just be. So you felt like completely exposed and comfortable with that. In a very strange way. Yeah. But didn't you at one point want to go into medicine? I did. That came about because I was told at a very young age that I'd never make it as an actor.

That's nice. So that sent you into... Well, it was almost like an ultimatum. If you wanted to make it in life, you need to either go to business, medicine, sciences, technology. You got to go the STEM route. Sure. So I figured science, I can help people make a difference. I'm good in science. I'm horrible at math, but I'm good at science. So...

I looked into becoming a doctor. And through high school, I even went to college. I went to Xavier University in New Orleans because they were number ones in sending African-Americans to medical school. I was doing great in biology class. I was miserable. I hated it. I think the best part of chem lab was watching the chemicals change colors, you know, which in of itself is a form of theater. Yeah, I was just going to say, it's like they're performing for you. Yes, and I loved it.

But I looked around and I noticed that all of these people, my classmates who are now doctors-

you know, they love this. They were so enthralled with this. And I said, you know, if I'm going to live my life, I want to do something that I love to do. And so I went on a long journey to try to figure out what is the thing that made me happy? What gave me joy? And I went from career to career. I went into public relations. I went into advertising. I went into publicity. I went into all of the different

avenues to try to figure out that thing. And it was eventually I got to the point where I had to sit down with myself and had the help with a mentor who was the head of acting at Jackson State University, Dr. Mark G. Henderson. And he said to me, what is the thing that excites you? What is the thing that motivates you? And it doesn't matter how much you get paid.

What is that thing? And I said, it was performing. That's what you need to do. And I gave him every excuse in the book as to why I shouldn't do it, why I can't do it. And he said, you know, once you finish with your excuses, go after it. And he told me to go to grad school. And I ended up going to grad school at University of Tennessee. For theater. For theater. To study that. To get the tools to have in the toolbox. And all of those experiences from working all these crazy jobs and

studying medicine to, you know, being an abstinence educator. All of these things just led to this point. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to ask, I read that you were one of the first black men to graduate from University of Tennessee's acting program, right? Yeah. What year was that? 2014. Kind of crazy. That is wild. It's bizarre.

Well, I mean, just to talk about that for a second, because Milchick is really the only black employee or person in management, right, that we see. Forward facing, right? Yeah, because Natalie, but. Yeah, well, Natalie too. I guess on the severed floor too, right? Right, the severed floor. But you're right. But it's something that.

is part of what's going on there, but we don't talk about it a lot in the show. How did that play for you? How did that play into just the dynamics in the first season and then going into the second season? Because at the beginning of the second season, you have been promoted, and you're starting to feel a little bit of the corporate politics. Right. I think it really fed into the making of "Milchik."

I remember the conversation that I had with you, Ben, and Dan Erickson when we discussed Milchik's ethnicity, the fact that he's Black. And the question I asked is, does he know he's Black? And so for me, it was really important for this character and as an actor to know if this character understood that he was

is different from this culture that they've built at Lumen. When we look at the perpetuity wing, you know, they're all homogenous for the most part. They're all white. And so we don't see a lot of images of Black people or brown people represented through Lumen. So what does it mean to be in a world that you are not represented in? And how does Milchik buy into that? And I think there is something that

Keir feeds there's there's a doctrine. There's a philosophy. There's there's a history that he really attaches himself to that empowers him in some way that he continues day after day to be a part of this. It's just like you said, you know, he's participating in dodgy behavior. How does he reconcile that? How does he sleep at night knowing what he's doing to these enemies or how does he view that?

Yeah, it's really interesting because on the page, I remember before you were cast, before you even thought about anyone playing the role, reading it, it seemed fairly straightforward, the role of Milchick.

And then when I saw you playing the role, you sent me Tramiel's one of his auditions. I think the final audition, whatever it was. And it just completely bloomed. And it just jumped off the page and added so much dimension and complexity to a role that could have been completely straightforward and functioned fine in the story. But...

that complexity and those like new angles completely kind of redefined it. Now, when you say that about Milchick,

having to sort of participate in things that might be a little ethically dodgy. How aware of that? Because his belief has to be overpowering and guiding him to a certain extent. How much do you feel he is aware of the kind of ethically tricky corners he finds himself in? That's a good question. I don't know if I specifically...

have broken down how much Milchik, you know, has thought about the ethical ramifications. I know that he senses the ethical, the issues with that. We saw that in season one, episode three or four, where Heli, it's the first time she goes down

into the break room and Helly is pleading with Milchik. Don't do this. Don't do this. You seem like a sensible guy. And he just says, not right now. You know, there's something there that he recognizes. He taps into that humanity. Right. But this is a man of duty. Yeah. You know, this is a man of task. He has a job at hand and he goes and serves people.

Yeah.

Right.

how much that overrides maybe his sense of self in terms of as it applies to somebody who works at the company, it applies to race. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's like, what you said, how does he know he's black? It's such an interesting question. To me, part of that is like, how much is he just a product of this world that we don't know what it is and how overreaching it is in his world? Yeah.

So that to me is one of the things that's so fascinating about the character is that we don't know where he's coming from. And that scene with Helly in the break room, it's so scary because yeah, you get the sentence, he says, "Not right now, Helly." It's like, you get the sense that he can be like the guy who's like, "Hey, I'm your buddy." But then he can also be like, "No, this is it. This is business. We draw the line here." And that's what's so scary is that you can go between that. And I think that, you know, you do that so well in the show.

So in the second season now, here we are and you've been promoted and you have such a huge task in front of you because you have to basically get everybody back in line and tell them what happened and tell them what you're going to do and you have to reset everything.

That's true. Yeah, you have to clean up Cobell's mess and construct this entire new world of Lumen. Can I add to that? I also have to clean up my mess. Yeah. Because I did the OTC. Yeah. Right? And that was a major boo-boo. Yeah. And that's one of the things that we see throughout the show is that Milchix sometimes is doing things. I mean, Cobell is doing her own thing, which you put her in check on, we see in season one.

But then, and you ultimately, you know, tell her she's out, right? And, you know, you're not making the decision, but, you know, you draw the line there. But then you're constantly having to do things and make choices that you're on the line for. And here we are now, you know, the OTC happened. And now you're responsible for resetting everybody. And, you know, you got to show Mark the newspaper, but don't really let him look at it for too long. The redacted newspaper. Wow. I laughed.

I love the moment where, you know, basically you say to him, enjoy your balloons when Mark pushes too hard. Right. And we really get the sense that there's going to be a real tension here that's coming for the season between Mark pushing back on you and you drawing the line. And then you take everybody to the break room. You have to kind of reset everybody and you show them the paper and.

you know, the redacted, right? Yeah, let's take a listen to that scene. I know we have our differences, but I want you to know that I truly respect each and every one of you, and I don't want to be your jailer. By end of day, each of you will choose whether you want to remain here. Not your outies, but you. If you start work on your file, I'll assume you want to stay. If not, I'll send you to the surface. No ill will. Maybe I'll even buy you a drink at a bistro one day.

Like the rest of the severed floor, the break room has no cameras or microphones. Privacy shouldn't mean packing into a supply closet like so many sardines. I truly hope you all will choose to stay and enjoy what you've helped build. A new quarter. A fresh start for all of us. So you're just pointing all blame at...

Just dumping it all on Cobell. All on her. That's right. That's right. I didn't do anything wrong. It's Cobell. Now, in season one, you saw her kind of going off track here and there, but she was above you, and you were somewhat supportive. But then when things completely went off the rails, like Ben said, you were tasked with telling her she was fired and it was time for her to go. So now you're stepping into her role.

Is this sort of, I mean, it's like you were saying, it's this, you have several messes to clean up, but this is a huge opportunity for Milchik as well, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. I believe Milchik to be not only just a company man, but an ambitious company man. He has his sights set high. And when Cobell had the opportunity to turn things around, she chose not to. And I think it's really interesting that,

Going back to season one, Cobell asked the question, did Milchick turn me in when she's talking to Natalie? And that question is never answered, which I think is fun. And even on top of that, their relationship, this Cobell and Milchick seems like this mentor and mentee relationship. And any of the actions that were coming or ramifications would immediately go to Cobell.

But now that Milchik has risen to the ranks, now anything that happens, it falls on him. And so whether or not he betrayed Cobell, you know, I think that's, you know, a question to let linger, if you will. But I think it's so interesting that now in this position, when he's trying to get Mark back on board, that he's putting everything on her. Yeah. You know?

I just have a question. Is a thruple with an innie and an outie an ethical form of non-monogamy? That's interesting. That is a really good question. I feel like the thruple with Cobell and Mark's innie and outie could be... That could be its own spinoff. It could be a spinoff. It's funny that...

that Mr. Milchick is sort of taking this word that means something else and applying it to some, just to make something else sound illicit and perverted in a way. And it doesn't even really make a lot of sense. It doesn't make sense. No.

Corporate speak. Yeah. What is it? Has it been interesting being identified as Mr. Milchick in the world? People knowing you from the show? Is that has that become a thing? And how do people sort of respond to you in life? They're terrified of me. Yeah.

Oh, come on. Well, I have to say something. We went to see you in a play, which you were wonderful in off Broadway recently. And this character was 180 degrees from Mr. Milchick. And you were smiling and laughing and so accessible and warm. And I'm sitting there watching it, knowing you for a number of years now, knowing you're an actor, knowing you're creating this character. And I'm going, oh, my God.

This is freaking me out. I know. It was jarring. Particularly, it's strange since that character was so much closer to who you are, Tramiel, as a person than Mr. Milchick is. But it's still, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was so wildly different. Ah.

I'm so impressed. I mean, honestly, it's... And having worked with you over the last few years, you know, the intensity and the specificity and the concentration you have when I'm working with you, it is... I do feel like I'm working with you in character as Milchick. I don't know how you do it. Maybe talk a little bit about that. You don't have to if you don't want to. But, like, you're in a space, and we all go into a space when we're working...

But it feels different than probably if I ran into you on the street or right now. Sure. Yeah, I mean, with Milchick, it feels like you got to put a suit on. You know what I mean? This man's got layers upon layers upon layers. And at any moment, he could turn. So for me to walk in that, even on set, you know, I'm not...

or at least I don't think I'm a dick to anybody on set, but you know, it's, there's this, there's a heaviness, there's a weight that you got to stay in. And the way the ship is ran, we, we work, we're like so focused and so tuned in and getting the shots and angles and everything. We can't afford to lose any moment. You're right. You're so right. Everybody has the responsibility on the set, you know, to get the most out of our days. And you guys have so much responsibility because lots of times you come in and

with these long speeches or these very long scenes. Long scenes. Very specifically worded. Nobody's really improv-ing on set. No, you can't. Yeah, and so you guys are bringing in your end of it. We all know each other now. We know, okay, we're going to be going for a lot of shots in this scene, or we're going to be going for a one-er in this scene where everybody has to have it nailed. And everybody seems to really come to the table with, you know,

taking care of their part of the bargain. And it's always, you know, so appreciated. And I'm always amazed because I watch you guys and as, even though I'm an actor, as a director, I just am like such a fan because I see how good you guys are with this very technical stuff. I mean, we also can't not talk about the MDE from season one.

Oh yeah. The music dance experience. Oh my God. You must get a lot of that out in the world, people wanting to talk about it. Yes. One person came up to me and asked me to dance, reenact the dance in the middle of the street. I'm like, okay. What am I? What am I? You're entertaining? Yeah, exactly. I'm a clown? I amuse you? Yeah.

But it was, it's amazing. I love it so much. I remember when we were doing it and, you know, when I was editing it, I just was like, this is my favorite thing to watch in the world. I don't think I knew that you moved so well when you came in and read for the show. We never really talked about that, did we? No. Right? It wasn't part of it. What is your dance experience? You didn't ask? You didn't know that was trained? No. So what, can you tell me, what is your training? Where does it come from? I don't know.

I think it's just, you know, it's just life. It's just all natural. Really? Well, you must have been a dancer. Like, I can imagine you as a professional dancer. I mean, you're amazing. Thank you. I'm alive. I have experience. I don't move. Yeah, me neither.

There's got to be something more. No training, no classes? No official training. I mean, I might have took a class here and there, but I did talent shows when I was a kid. Damn you. I don't remember dancing. So did I. California Raisins. Do you remember that? California Raisins? I remember the California Raisins. I dressed up as a California Raisin. Wait, you were a California Raisin? Yeah, I was a California Raisin. Like in the commercials? Yeah.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I dressed up in the talent show. And like lip synced to, I heard it through the grapevine. Yes, yes. There's a video somewhere. I have to find it. My mom has it. Well, it was just, you know, it's just let you go and have fun. But you went on, we talked about it. I remember we had a choreographer came, but you basically like went off.

And you just figured it out, right? You and her went off together and then... You gave us that very beautiful but hard to dance music. Very hard. Oh my God. How do you dance to this? What is this? Okay, let's start in the shoulders. Let's...

Figure it out. That is amazing because I don't think MDE was even conceived when you were cast, probably. No, no. It's just by sheer luck that you happen to be like this world-class dancer. I mean...

It's incredible. I mean, I also, John Turturro is incredible, you know, like I had to step my game up because he was funny how you're not mentioning me. That's fine.

But Turturro was holding back. Yes. Because he does, like he is like, he's a real dancer. I just watched Big Lebowski the other night. His physicality in that movie is so incredible. Yeah. Do you remember our first day? Do you remember my first day filming? Yeah. Do you remember that day? Yeah, the scene in the hallway with John? With me and John? Yeah. Oh my God. Do you know what happened? No. No.

Okay, so I had not been filming on a set in probably a year and a half, right? It's what, October, November into the pandemic? 2020. 2020. Yeah. We got masks on.

It's your first, and also your first day on the show. First day. Yeah. With John. With John Turturro. John Turturro. One of my first days with John Turturro. Wow. Okay. So you guys were both freaking out. Oh, absolutely. And it was not a simple shot. What scene was it? It was the scene where I caught

Irving sleeping or, you know, hallucinating. And I told him to walk with me essentially. And we're walking through the hallway and I tell him, and I'm directing him to the, I'm directing him to the wellness. Yes. Wellness. Yeah. I'm taking him to wellness. Oh, right. Yeah. It's a hallway walk and talk in the hallway. Right. It's always super simple and easy. Yeah. Yeah.

We had the rung ladder on the floor. Just real quick, the rung ladder that you're talking about is I think the dolly track that's on the floor that has wheels on it, the cameras on it, so it creates movement with the cameras nice and smooth. That's right. So I had to walk over the rung ladder but make it look like I was not walking through the rung ladder. Of course. It was choreographed in such a way that I had to lead but stay with John even though he's behind me. Yeah.

And I had to say the lines, which are written so beautifully by Dan Erickson, but it's not in a natural cadence. Right. And then also work with the camera that was switching and turning and hitting the corners and whatnot. And then I'm also working with Ben Stiller. Yeah. So I'm like, what is going on? I was freaking out. Yeah. Your first day on this big show. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. And so I remember we did a couple of takes.

And John got wind of my frazzle and he said, just relax. Just breathe. You got it. And I turned and looked at him and I smiled. I said, thank you, John. And then Ben gets on the walkie. You remember what you said, Ben? No. Ben said, all right, I got good news and I got bad news. Good news. We're going to do it till we get it right. Bad news.

We're going to do it till we get it right. And that and John gave me the laugh that I needed to just breathe and relax through the whole thing. Yeah. But that was the first day. I remember. I remember. And yeah, and I remember it was, you know, and I think we did like, it was like 16 or 17 times. I do remember. That's how long it takes to get some of those things. Yeah. And, but let me tell you something, like,

I, it's like, yeah, I was like, okay, he's nervous. It's okay. He's nervous. And there was a second I felt like, okay, this is this. I don't know this actor that well, but I know he's great. And I do know he has a big part in the show. And I'm like, all right, well, you know, it's first day and it's okay. You know,

Like, I remember that very well because I was like, okay, I hope this works out. Because, you know, sometimes you never know, right? Right. Like, you never know. Like, this was... But I didn't know your history in terms of, like, how much you... What you've done. But I do know, like, I screw up so much. It's so... I just identified so much. And then, like, oh, my God, from, like, by the end of the season, right? Mm-hmm. I mean...

It's like, I was afraid to talk to you. I do remember those glances. I was like, I have a note for Toronto. I don't know them. And I love it. It's like, dude, he's like, right. It's just like, that's what it should be though. It's like, because it was finding...

Finding the character, finding the comfortability, finding all of that. And you have to, like, it can be so easy to be shut down and to be, you know, in an environment where all of a sudden you're like, oh shit. And it should never feel like that on a set because we're not on stage. We're not having to, like, it's not an audience out there. It's like, you should always have a second take, third take, whatever. Right.

Anyway. All right, man. Well, this is great. Listen, before you go, we have some of these questions from our, our hotline. Yeah. So here's a, here's a question about something we were just talking about. Hello, this is Betty. I was wondering what music dance experience you would choose and what you would do to get it officially canceled. Thank you.

Do we have the list? Do you remember the list? There's a list for the music dance experience. By the way, the way it's also one of my favorite moments is the music dance experience is officially canceled. That was so much fun. Yeah. I remember we did that when we had come back to like shoot again after we had finished principal photography. And I remember being back and watching that moment where you swipe the thing and

There's the awkwardness with the card, but also with the door that doesn't slam. It was amazing. Oh, that was so much fun. Yeah.

Also, the music dance experience is officially canceled. It's also like one of those moments, I think, that defines the tone of the show where it's like funny, but real. And it's sort of like ironic and like, what is this guy doing? But he's like also in charge and it's everything. Yeah. Okay. It's almost petulant. Oh, yeah. It's like taking this away. Well, also, you're not acting right. It's canceled. Yeah. And also, like when you drew blood, like you're so, it's really. Yeah. How dare you?

This is supposed to be a good time, man. We needed some frivolity and he ruined it. Okay. So we have body funk, bouncy swing, buoyant reggae, defiant jazz. Okay. Effusive ska, exalted choral, exciting rap, hootin' tootin' country, lofty orchestral, maximized rhythm, playful punk, reckless disco, spooky ambient, tearful emo, thoughtful grunge, wholesome big band, wistful pipes. And the question was, if I had to choose...

Yeah, which one would you choose? Which one would I choose? And then what would you do to get it officially canceled? What's the choral one? What is that called? It's choral, exalted choral. Exalted choral, wow. That sounds very religious. That sounds like an experience. I have to go with...

Body funk. Body funk? Like B-A-W? B-A-W-D-Y, man. I think that's right for you, Tramiel. Yeah, body. Doesn't it feel guttural? Oh, yeah. I can see you just getting in it. All the way down, man.

I want to see Tramiel step into the body funk. And then I want to see you do your dance. Exactly the same. The march. The march. Yep. The march was great. Which you matched. You came up and did it right along with me.

Oh, man. Okay, one more. Second question for Mr. Milchik. Hello, my name is Karina Sabiva. And my question is, who is Mr. Milchik's most favorite and least favorite severance worker? Thank you so much and have a pleasant day.

Oh, I hope I don't get in trouble for this one. Yeah. It's a good question. That's a really good question. And Adam's not in character now. Yeah. So you can say whatever you want. Executive producer. That's right. Well, I would have said Mark, but you know, he's mouthing off at me in season, in episode one. So I don't know. That's right. I don't know about that. I think Irving is one of his favorites. He gets it. He understands the principles. He knows all nine.

And he appreciates the, what Keir stands for. He understands that the work is mysterious and important. Yeah. He's reliable. He can count on Irving. I love the scene in episode seven, season one, where, you know, the, uh, Bert retirement party where you have to, you know, kind of like lay down the law a little bit and, uh,

You say, I don't know what's gotten into you people today. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like you're particularly surprised that Irving is behaving this way. It's like Irving's the guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's always focused. Um,

Man, Tramiel, it was great to see you. I'm so, so happy that we got to talk and you're so great. It's exciting what comes up in season two that we can't talk about yet. Oh, man. Where we're headed. And maybe you'll come back at some point, you know, because there's a lot of great stuff to talk about as the season develops. And...

It's, uh, it's been really, uh, really fun working on second season with you. It was just a great experience. Thank you. Yeah. And, uh, looking forward to more in the future. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Do you know who I need to talk to? Um, an it person to fix my screen.

It still says, hello, Ms. Colbell. Who do I need to talk to? Oh, yeah, we'll get that taken care of right away. Okay. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, I called. I know that you're not happy about that. I know. No, I'm not. That seems to really piss off Mr. Milchick. Wow. I'm not sure why that is, but, you know, it's just... He's not a fan. We need to, like... Is there, like, a little moment there where you kind of say to Ms. Wong...

Like, if somebody calls, you get them to fix a screen right now. And it feels like it drops Milchick a little bit. It gets a little more familiar. Am I right? It's a little real. Yeah, right? It's like, all right, guys, come on now. We haven't talked about this. I've been here a couple days. I love that moment. It's kind of like the veneer drops a little bit. Yeah.

And then Dylan comes back and he's like, oh yeah, we're great. We're good. Oh, that's good. Oh yeah. We're good. Yeah. So much good stuff. I also like seeing all of Milchick's stuff that still has bubble wrap around it, kind of behind him on the shelf. It's really interesting. Yeah. And also where he keeps his motorcycle helmet and leather jacket back there and the secret room. We didn't talk about that. The secret room. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that was such a fun thing too, because,

You know, Dan had written it as, you know, there's this like back closet. And in season one, the first time we see when you bring Mark in to see Ms. Cobell, the first time we see Patricia, she comes out from that door. Yes. And I always remember thinking like, OK, there's like something in there. We don't know. And we all came up with this idea of like, oh, what if there's like actually like a passageway in that door that can go back to where it's like your real back office there? Yeah. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Tramiel. Yeah, thank you. This was fun. It was great, man.

Okay, so we end episode one with another Severance mystery. Why did Miss Casey's face flash on the screen? So to help tide you over, we're bringing Zach Cherry in to give you his prediction of what's to come in episode two. And just so you know, these predictions are kind of what Zach thinks based on really probably only having read his sides and his scenes. He doesn't like reading other people's lines. But let's hear what he has to say.

Thanks, Ben and Adam. It's Zach here. You know, that's right. I only read my lines, so I don't know what's going on this season on Severance, but I'm excited to find out. I keep trying to convince you guys to let me do the announcer voice on the show. My dream was to sort of be like the movie phone guy and say, coming up next on Severance. So we're going to get that in here, too.

Here's my predictions for what happens in episode two. Next time on Severance. Miss Casey is trapped in the number four. And then when Mark finishes Cold Harbor, she moves up to the number five. But she doesn't want to get to the number seven because obviously...

7-8-9, and that's some scary stuff. And then also, I think Milchick is going to change his name to Ms. Cobell, so then he doesn't have to feel sad about his computer login screen. Maybe they'll send him two paychecks by accident. Okay. First of all, the four trapped in the number four, it doesn't make any... The premise of his joke, he just wants to get to 7-8-9. Yeah. Like a second grader joke. As usual, Zach is just...

You know, after applause and laughs and nothing else. Doesn't care where they come from. Yeah. And he also wants to do his announcer voice thing. Yeah. Which is sort of, it's not very, it's not like in his wheelhouse really. No, but you know, just like always, I'm sure it'll work out wonderfully for Zach and he'll get some big voiceover job because of this. Yeah. Why don't you pitch it to Fallout, Zach? Yeah. See how they like it because we're not buying it here. Give it a shot on crashing. Yeah.

Okay, and that does it for the Season 2 premiere. We'll be back next week with creator Dan Erickson to talk all about Season 2, Episode 2. And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV+, with new episodes coming out every Friday.

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott.

This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner. Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderutten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker. And at Great Scott, Naomi Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management. We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter.

I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott. Thank you for listening. And we all thank Kier for the MacroDat uprising. Yes.