Who Are You? (with SZA, Dan Erickson, and We Know Severance)
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This episode of the Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is presented by State Farm. Learn more at statefarm.com slash severance. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's, it's... Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives.

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Bro, what the fuck is Lumen? Like, is it a cult? Is it a religion? What's the end goal of Lumen in every department? What is the actual end goal? Like, is Mark going to die when he gets completely, like, freed of this? Like, I just, I mean, because if Mark dies, obviously I take Mark's place. And then we move forward to season three. I think we have a season three. That would be amazing, actually.

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. Today is a very special bonus episode. We're looking back at all of season two with some incredible guests. Yeah, and first we're going to be joined by...

Our creator, the man who created the world of Severance from his mind, Dan Erickson. And we'll talk all about the season, season two, and answer some of your hotline questions. Just sort of, you know, break down the whole experience. Just spend some real time. You know, I've missed this brain in a jar that we call Dan Erickson. He's so much more than a brain in a jar, though, isn't he? No, you're right. He is, but...

For me, it's just how I like to think of him because it makes him malleable and innocent to just be a brain floating in a jar. You think that brains are malleable and innocent? Every single one of them. I guess when they're born, they are. Yeah.

Well, when they're disconnected from a body, they are. Right. I wonder how Dan feels about us calling him Brain in a Jar. We should ask him, right? Yeah. After we speak with the Brain in a Jar, we're sitting down with the hosts of We Know Severance, and they might know even more about severance than we do. Yeah, I'm sure they do, actually. I feel like we could learn a thing or two. And then...

We're going to close out the episode with our Severance super fan, who we are super fans of, the one, the only SZA. Oh my God, SZA. And she's going to answer some hotline questions. We're going to get to talk to her about her incredibly important tweets that she sent out to keep us going. And her incredibly important music video starring you.

Did I talk about that? You don't have to talk about that. Oh, we're talking about that. Also, spoiler warning, we're going to be talking about anything and everything from season two. So if you're not caught up yet, go do that before you listen to the rest of this. Yeah. Adam, how are you doing, by the way? How's it going there? I'm good. I just need to tell you, just inform you real quick that when we're recording this, tomorrow...

is the beginning of daylight savings time. I just want to flag it for you. Oh, I know. I am aware. Oh, you know. Okay. You're aware. And somewhere inside of me, I'm hoping it might be the last time that we ever have to skip forward. Yeah, I don't know. Tonight we skip forward, lose an hour of sleep, but...

It's going to be sunnier a lot longer for those of us who don't wake up super, super early. Yeah. I don't understand the debate. I still don't understand the debate. I know you don't. I just know you feel strongly about it. Wanted to flag it for you just in case. But why do you say it as if you're sort of like you're a neutral observer? You don't... I mean, come on. I'm indifferent. I love...

I love time and kind of the concept of time either way. I'm just enjoying the ride. You know, I'm easygoing person. Cool. Cool. You love time. All right. Well, listen, do you like darkness? I mean, sometimes. Okay. Because I'm just saying skip forward in your mind to next, what is it? October or whatever. Yeah. It'll come way too quick.

One day and you'll be like, oh, wow, it's getting dark early. And then all of a sudden one day it's like, oh, no, it's going to get dark a lot earlier. At like 445. Yeah, exactly. For no reason. Guess what? I like that. Why? Because it's cool. You're like a goth guy. Yeah. October comes around. I am goth till springtime and we spring forward. Okay, good. Well, at least we've defined now what your stance is, which is you're anti daylight savings time.

You're atheistic. Why is that? Wait a second. Why is that? You just said you like darkness. But why is that anti-daylight savings time? Because daylight savings time is about saving daylight time. I think daylight savings time is an umbrella term for the concept of jumping forward or falling back. I don't think it refers to either one or the other. I think it's just a blanket term, isn't it?

Okay, that feels like a, like that's a word salad you just gave me. You gave me one of those word salad answers. You know what we need? What? We need a Daylight Savings Time expert on this podcast. I think we need to do a whole episode on Daylight Savings Time. I think you're right. Okay, that'll come in the near future. We do have an expert on severance though, our buddy Dan Erickson, severance creator, is back on the podcast. Thank you, Dan, for being here. How are you? Hi.

Hi, guys. I am good. It's nice to be back in the recording studio looking at your faces on a screen. Hey, Dan, just right off the bat. Yes. First question. Yes. Here we go. On everybody's mind. Uh-huh. What do you think of Daylight Savings Time?

Well, like Adam, I consider myself a bit of a goth. So, you know, the added hour of night is definitely to my liking. Thank you. I think I'm done with this grouping because I don't understand. I feel like it's all turned here. Whoa, Ben just threw his headphones off. No, I just feel for a long time. It was like, hey, yeah, daylight savings time, right? And you were like kind of playing along, but now you show your true colors. Maybe. Maybe I'm just getting comfortable. Yeah.

But Dan, it's good to know where you stand at least. Yeah. Well, in my brain jar, I can't see light anyway. Uh, uh,

So it doesn't really matter. Well, let's talk about the brain jar. Let's talk about how do you feel about being called the brain in a jar? And was it originally your idea? I don't think it was my idea. I feel like, I mean, we could go back and play the tape from the first one, but I feel like it was one of you guys who came up with this. And I don't, look, I don't mind it. I have nothing against the jar industry or...

or the brain industry. The problem is now people are just disappointed when they meet me to find I have a body, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And limbs and a corporeal form. They're like, "Oh, this is not the image we had of you." So that's the only thing. - It's true. We should make it abundantly clear, Dan,

as a person has nothing against jars. I've heard you talk favorably about jars on many occasions. - Yeah, no, they can keep our various pickles fresh and whatever else they do. - I do remember it being Adam who came up with the brain in a jar, I think is like a funny quip thing. - I don't know. - No, I think so. I think it was. - Okay. - Well now you're Dan Erickson guy who's more than just a brain in a jar. He's a brain in a body. - Famous body haver, Dan Erickson.

Okay. I've now been messaged here that it is on record that I called Dan the big brain and then Ben said they're bringing Dan's brain in in a jar. Okay.

There you go. Yeah. Boom. I like the big brain. I rest my case. The big brain sounds like a sports figure, like the big brain. So let's go with the big brain. Dan, the big brain Erickson. It would have been a weird thing for me to like say about myself or like, hey, it's me, big brain. Just call you BB. It's BB. BB Erickson.

So it's been a week since the finale aired. So how is just kind of generally the overwhelming response to season two? How are you feeling? How has it been kind of seeing the whole thing unfold? Yeah, it is. It's so crazy because I feel like I've been walking around with this secret, you know, this thing that kind of only we knew about. And it was fun to, you know, imagine how people are going to respond to everything. And yeah, now it's out there. The brain is out of the jar and it's been wild.

Wild, but I would say more than anything, it's been just a relief because I did spend so many hours just buried in crippling anxiety about whether we were going to be able to match the first season. And the fact is, you never know until it's out there. You never know how people are going to respond to it. And it was like we've talked about with the first season where I think we knew it was special. We knew that we were always going to like it.

but it was always possible that it was just us. And with this one, I just wanted to make sure that we were doing right by all the people who had loved the first season and bringing them something that was just as cool and just as exciting. The fact that overall people seem to be loving it as much as we did

There's a real sigh of relief happening there. Yeah. I think relief is the main feeling that I have as well. For so long, it was theoretical in our minds, the idea of it coming out because we were in process for so long. So I think I remember like when we were working on, you know, like whatever episode three or four and thinking, oh, this is going to be at least, you know, like a year and a half or something.

until this comes out. We didn't know how long it would take. So yeah, to actually have it out in the world. And I've been actually surprised at how deeply the fans of the show have really gotten into the emotional journeys of the characters and how much they identify with the characters and care about the characters.

Yeah. So that's been, for me, really interesting. And just the week by week of it coming out too, which I think is a very different experience. I don't know how you see that, Dan, but just sort of the difference between being able to binge a show and just watching the show week by week, because every week, every episode has had time for people to really marinate in it. And some of them, obviously some people flip out over certain episodes and it's like,

that engagement is so strong. I wonder how people will experience the show who decide to now binge it. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite comments that I've seen was somebody who said online, like this show has made me fall in love with a weekly release schedule again.

and the idea of all of us together experiencing this thing in real time. We're watching it, and we're coming in the next day, and we're talking about it. And that is something that increasingly feels like it's going away. But I've always loved going back to Game of Thrones. And even I was thinking the other day, going back to Seinfeld. I remember being in middle school, and we would come into the cafeteria on Friday because Seinfeld would come out on Thursday.

And it was just like, that was the thing everybody was talking about on Fridays. And I would come in and my friend Neil would be like, dude, they did a whole episode about Kenny Rogers roasters. Like how crazy is that? And it's just it, you know, not to be too lofty about it, but it's like it helps build a culture and build a community to be able to have a common experience like that. And so if we did anything to contribute in any way to that, you know, bringing that back,

And especially for younger people who might not be used to experiencing television that way. That to me is one of the, it just makes me feel really good. Adam, do you have a memory of like coming into school, like after seeing a show or something? Cause I have, like, I remember very clearly when the Motown 25th anniversary special was on. Oh, after the moonwalk. Yeah. And,

I literally remember in high school coming in and everybody was talking about Michael Jackson doing Billie Jean and the moonwalk. It was a big deal. Yeah. I remember Miami Vice being the one because it was on Friday nights and it was elementary school. So it meant whoever's house we were doing a sleepover at, we were going to watch Miami Vice. Wow.

And we would read the little summary and TV guide ahead of the episode. Uh-huh. And on the walk home from school, kind of talk about like what adventures Crockett and Tufts were going to get into that night. And that being so fun. Dan, what do you think would, for you, would be like the biggest theme in this season that emerged? Because I, you know, I know we had like thoughts about it and ideas, but in terms of what watching it, like what you feel was the main sort of through line that

that came through. I mean, when we were writing it, we always sort of talked about for the innies anyway, in season one, the innies were sort of like children and that this was more of like an adolescent story where, you know, in season one, it occurred to them that they could be their own people independent of their outies and that they themselves had value. And then in this season, it was sort of about, okay, like now that that's occurred to me,

Who am I? Like, if I am not something that exists simply in service of my outie, then what do I want out of life? What do I want my identity and my life to look like? And even stuff like going to camp and having your first romantic experience, you know, these are things that are, it just felt like a sort of the next step in that eternal question for the show, which is who are you and discovering your identity and the sort of messiness of that. So yeah.

I would say that's the main thing. And then also just like getting your jugular vein punctured by a goat slaughter device. I think those are the two themes that really tie the season together. That really resonate. Yeah. Yeah.

I do like the idea of, you know, the Inis growing up. I think the adolescence, the sort of rebellion starting, it feels like in terms of just their consciousness. And then also the relationships. I think there was a real development of these relationships between Mark and Hallie and Dylan.

and Irving. And, you know, it's interesting because I never worked on a show that has gone multiple seasons. And just there's a real depth that starts to develop in terms of the history that you can build on. And I think that every scene becomes very important sort of as a history of these characters, the scenes that you see. And

That to me is, you know, I think something that I've really gotten is how deeply connected these characters are and then feeling the audience going along with that and developing real stakes in these relationships that have been earned now over the course of two seasons. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I mean, I think so much of season one was leading up to that moment where after Dylan tackles Milchick and you have that moment where it's just all of you together and you sort of like literally have his back and are all standing there as kind of a unit. And to me, this season is about testing that unit, you know, testing the strength of that of that group.

And, you know, we see, of course, in episode four that people start to turn on each other and there start to be tensions. And it basically leads to the loss of Irving. And that is devastating. But it also has the effect of emphasizing to the others how important they are to each other. You know, if you lose somebody, then you become more aware of the importance of the people that you still have. Yeah. And like in adolescence where teenagers and people who are growing up often, you know,

come to the realization of is that there's nothing more important than the people in your lives and the feelings that come up when you're developing relationships with people.

So love is really something that really kind of rose to the surface this season and the different forms it takes. I also think the dilemma that we've always faced in the show and sort of the interesting question of the show is the innies versus the outies in terms of the character, right? Who are we siding with as an audience? And hopefully that you're seeing both sides of

of each person and their stories that you can identify with. So that, especially for Mark, I think, you know, that we've developed the story of his Audi and his any, and the question of who is more important in terms of what Mark himself wants, you know, what Mark's Audi marks, any,

And that's been an interesting balance to try to figure out throughout the course of the second season, because really, I think the season was heading towards this final conversation that Mark has in episode 210 with himself. And who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? And that ending of the season for us was, I think, you know, the relationship between Mark and Helly is so strong, but then the relationship between Mark

and Gemma is so strong too. And I think that was one of the hopes we had this season was that we could sort of create a case for both relationships and let the audience have to struggle also with how they feel about that as Mark himself has to sort of figure out too. - Yeah, for sure. - Hey, should we go to the hotline and see what some of these hotline questions are? - That's a good idea. - All right, let's go to the first hotline question.

Hi, Sean F. here. Christmas is my favorite holiday, and I absolutely love it. So it's very funny to me that Gemma's idea of torture was writing thank you notes for Christmas gifts in this very drab Christmas setting.

That made me curious as to whether or not any of you really hate Christmas or how you feel about it in general. I'd particularly love to know if Dan Erickson likes or doesn't like Christmas and whether or not that's why that particular scene made it into the show. Thank you and praise Keir.

It's a very good question, but I do want to say I love Christmas. I've always loved Christmas. What I hate is having to write thank you notes, and that is a very specific and petty gripe that I have, that I've had since childhood. I feel like I was sort of...

Working through that via the show. When I was a kid, my parents would always make us write fairly specific thank you notes for each gift that we would get where it was just like, you know, dear grandpa, thank you for the sled. I'm going to use it next time we go to yada yada.

And yeah, I was just always very salty about that as a young kid. I was like, well, it's not even worth getting the presents if I have to write the stupid note. And so, yeah, this was my way of working through that longstanding trauma from my childhood. But I love Christmas and I hope people don't think that I'm sitting here in my Grinch suit writing the episodes. That's not what it is. It's about the note. Loves Christmas, hates thank you notes. Hates gratitude. Okay, that's good to know. Yeah.

Did you ever get a de-growder for Christmas? I never did. Maybe that's why I have issues, was I never got a de-growder like I always wanted. You also never had Robbie Benson sitting and just watching you write the notes. Well, you don't know that. Oh, it's true. Oh, interesting. Okay. I have to look into that one. All right. We have time for one more hotline question.

Hi, this is Beth Jay calling from New Hampshire, a state you may or may not know. Anyway, I was hoping to get more information on the new snacks in the vending machine, specifically cut beans. Could you tell us more about that? Is that a Dan creation? Do you have an example of a cut bean? Anyway, that's all for now. Thanks. Praise here.

It's a very good question, Dan. It's a really good question. This is something that I, yeah, I fear people are reading more into than what I necessarily intended. A cut bean is simply a bean that has been cut in any way. I imagine that like it's been cut sort of width wise down the middle to make it slimmer and easier to eat.

But look, a bean can be kind of a daunting thing to eat if it is uncut. Sometimes you got to cut the bean and make it more palatable. And what about, what's the one that was my favorite, the charred one you came up with? Wet charred. Wet charred. I don't know if that- That was my favorite. Yeah. I don't know if that ended up in the show, but there was one of the ones that we talked about was wet charred, which to me, that's so, the most troubling thing is like,

How does it stay wet? Like how long, how long have those packages been in the vending machine and have they just been sort of. I could have sworn wet chard was in the vending machine in the little kitchen area. I think it's in there. Yeah. I don't know if you. If it made it on camera. Yeah. If it made it on camera, but it's definitely in there. I would just say with the cut beans, there's an obvious reference to severance in the cut beans.

because isn't being cut, isn't that sort of like a term, like a slang term for being severed? - Yeah. - You're cut. - Yeah. - And you just said like cutting a bean down the middle, sort of like severing, you know, I'm just saying. - I think that may have just been like a subconscious thing. I don't think I intended that, but maybe it just bubbled up. - Maybe that's what they refer to us.

Like on the streets. They're just cut beans over there. Yeah. I'm imagining Mark getting like approached by a bunch of like greaser guys and they're like, Hey, cut bean. That's right. You're on our turf. That's for the musical version. Uh-huh. Coming this fall.

Hey, everybody. Thank you for these messages. You can call the telephone post box of Lumen Industries Severed Floor at 212-830-3816. Dan, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. Thank you guys so much. It's always a pleasure and a joy.

Dan, you're so much more than a brain in a jar. You're a human being in a jar. I have so many organs, you guys, you don't even know. Yeah. Stop bragging. Thank you, guys. All right, it's time for us to take a quick break. When we come back, Ben and I will have the hosts of the podcast, We Know Severance. We Know Severance.

One thing I'm going to take away from our conversation with Dan is that even the smallest gripe can lead to a beautiful scene. For our show, childhood anxiety towards writing thank you cards was channeled into one of Gemma's Innie's grueling tasks. And while sometimes holding on to annoyances and fears from your youth can inspire creativity in adulthood, one thing you don't have to hold on to is worrying about getting your own insurance separate from your parents' plan.

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Hey, it's me, Jeff Probst. I'm excited to share that Survivor's back with our 48th season. And alongside it, we're bringing you a brand new season of On Fire, the only official Survivor podcast. If you are a Survivor superfan, you will not want to miss the deep dive into every episode. And we do it from three different points of view. First, you have me, the showrunner Survivor.

We'll be right back.

This season, we are joined by somebody I can't wait to hear from, the winner of Survivor 47, Rachel Lamont. I'm so excited to join the On Fire squad to help break down Survivor 48. Join us every Wednesday immediately following the show. Listen to On Fire, the official Survivor podcast with me, Jeff Probst, every Wednesday after the show, wherever you get your podcasts.

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Hey guys. Hey everybody. Hello.

How's it going? How's it going? Oh my goodness gracious. Oh my God. It's really happening. So we're very excited that we get to talk with a few of our favorite podcasters, the host of the We Know Severance podcast, Josh Wigler, Melissa Woodward, and Amanda Rabinowitz. Welcome. Thanks for being here, you guys. Oh my gosh. Thank you for having us on your Boutique Severance podcast. I mean-

We really needed to give you a boost pretty late in the game. We're thrilled to do it. Thank you. We tried to do our part. We appreciate it. First of all, tell us like where you guys are in the world and how you started this thing. Like what was the impetus and just like what was the beginning of this whole thing?

So, Adam, we're Survivor fans. We come to this through Survivor, the We Know Severance podcast, which is hosted on RHAP, which is Rob Has a Podcast, which is Rob Sesternino, who calls himself the Rob That Sucks.

because he got voted out by Boston Rob after being really awesome at Survivor on his first season. He is the grandmaster for whom we podcast on his network. And so we're all Survivor fans. We all got to know each other that way. And we wanted to do some kind of a podcast. And to me, as I was watching the first couple of episodes, it was like,

It made all the sense of the world that the only two people to podcast about this show should be people who understand the neuroscience behind it. So that's Amanda and that's Melissa. They're the brains behind this operation. Wow. Okay. What do you guys do, Amanda and Melissa? I

am a clinical neuropsychologist. So this is Amanda. I'm actually Dr. Amanda is my podcast moniker and my professional moniker. Yeah, I'm a clinical neuropsychologist. I study traumatic brain injury rehabilitation. So really, really fascinated by memory and emotion and the neuroscience behind all of those things. So when Josh let us know that severance was going to be our jam, he was right. It is very

very, very much our jam. Melissa is also a neuroscientist. I'll let her introduce herself. Yeah, so I graduated with a PhD in neuroscience. I'm from Vancouver, Canada, and my research specialized in neuroimaging, so like MRI brain imaging for people with kind of severe schizophrenia. And so anytime we see pictures of the brain on there or anything related to any of this stuff, Amanda and I get very excited about it because it's been

So cool to see that there's clearly been so much thought and effort put into that to make it as accurate as a sci-fi type show can be. We're very impressed, which is great. Wow. Yeah. So we like to say it's Dr. Amanda, Dr. Melissa, and also Josh on the pod.

And also Josh.

and just going like a few steps down the road. And so particularly things like the reintegration with that transmagnetic stimulation-like machine. Amanda and I talked all about brainwaves and kind of the things that it's currently used for, like treating chronic depression and helping people quit smoking. And so I think the severance chip itself is-

probably a little bit further down the road in terms of what we can currently do. But it's very cool that it gets implanted in the part of the brain that's associated with memory. We talk a lot about the fact that your emotional memories might be harder to deal with. And it seems like we're seeing a lot of that exploration on the show, just because it's so integrated with other parts of the brain that associate emotion and fear processing. So it's just very

Yeah, I think the chip itself is maybe not a technology that we have, but so much of this relies on our current understanding of neurology, which is very, very cool. Wow. And Lumen's use of the chip is obviously they could be doing good or bad with it. Do you think that with technology like this, it could be...

used for good and possibly even life-saving procedures, like if there is a traumatic brain injury, schizophrenia, something like that, and you could sort of separate and start anew with a new personality or part of it. Like, do you see it as something that could be a good tool if it were real? It's such a fascinating question. And this is why, like, I love sci-fi shows like Severance because it gets you thinking about

about the neuroethics and the implication of what it would mean to have this technology. Because obviously, there are a lot of reasons that we could think that wouldn't it be great? I mean, that was kind of Dan's whole premise. Like, I hate being at work, right? I want to flip my brain off while I'm at work. There's eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, which is an application to sort of cure heartache. And

the show really starts to play with what might be those unintended consequences or implications of something, even if it is developed for a good ends. And furthermore, like what's to stop anybody else from exploiting that good the way that Lumen Industries does. So, I mean, I think Severance, one of the reasons we geek out about it so hard is because it's

sci-fi at its best, like the way Melissa said, kind of pushing our world a little bit more into the future and then really delving into all of the implications of what that would mean. Yeah, I had a neuroethics lecture my first year of grad school in which we basically explored this idea of if you could come up with some sort of memory erasing technology for people with PTSD's

specifically. And then there was a lot of pushback amongst my classmates talking about potential, like what are the kind of negative implications of that? But there was also this really kind of significant component of some people are really experiencing like debilitating PTSD. And so it could also be helpful in some scenarios. But yeah, as Amanda said, the great thing about a show like this is we get to have these neuroethics conversations before the technology is available, which is the time to have them, not once it's already out there in the world. Right. But the

The good news is I think that we can all agree that whoever would have the power to distribute such a thing would be very ethical about it anyway. Absolutely. We just look around our world today and clearly it would be dealt with quite responsibly. Of course. I think we can trust any big tech CEO with technology like this. No worries. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, but that is an interesting question. Can you actually suppress a memory?

And because I think everything that I've learned over the years through just my own sort of process of having gone to therapy and just, you know, the idea of what people talk about in terms of coming to terms with traumatic experiences and being able to work through in some way that the question of like actually suppressing something. I think we talk about it a lot in the show. This idea can love transcend severance kind of emotions. You know, can you do that? Even if the place in your mind where the memory exists was somehow cut off.

Is it somehow experienced in your body and in your person and, you know, who you are?

And this is, you know, we see this in our world in real life. After a very severe traumatic brain injury, people can't make new memories for a period of time. It's called post-traumatic amnesia. And there might be, you know, days or months when they're not forming new memories. But if I go into a room and they have a bad experience with me, the next time they see me, they're not going to like me because that emotional part of your memory that's making that association is still intact. Right.

even if your memory for the facts, the declarative memory of the episode is not intact. So memory is dissociable in that way. And I think that that's a really great thing that's been very accurately portrayed in the show. That's such an interesting idea because, I mean, I find that also in everyday life, sometimes you probably know what this is, but I'll go somewhere that I haven't been for a long time into a new environment, and then all of a sudden it'll trigger something.

a memory of something because that memory happened in that environment. Yeah, we talk about set and setting a lot. And so the people that you're with, the environment that you're in, a lot of this, we often think about it in terms of addictions research, but there's a lot of different impact

that those kind of factors can have. And certainly in terms of memory, but also in terms of behavior. Yeah. Or a smell. Totally. Smell's a big one, yeah. So you guys both got PhDs in neuroscience to do this show, right? Yeah. No, but I went to acting class. And in acting class, I mean...

Literally, you know, a lot of the work that like if you're taught like, you know, methods, like sense memory that you're taught is about if you're trying to get in touch with emotions, say, you know, you have to have an emotional scene where you have to cry or something awful happened. And, you know, you have a memory that might connect with that. You're taught to recreate in your mind the circumstance, the place, the smells, the sounds, the room that you were in when this happened.

or the person you were with and not try to pull on actually like feeling the emotion, but just recreating the setting. And that can unlock emotion for an actor. I would be curious to know, just like for you, Adam, did that come into play at the start of this season? Because when we launch into season two, we are picking up right on that energy from the end of season one. And

recreating that scene on the immediate other side of the wake up. Did you have to tap into that as an actor? Like waking up in the elevator seconds after we left off in season one. Yeah, we tried to find the exact level of where we had left off, certainly. And then also when we went back to Devin and Rickon's house and picked up right after then, it was kind of the same thing. And yeah, I was trying to figure out like,

What exactly was I thinking about when we shot that three years ago? And can I find that exact same thing for this? And I think the more specific you get with stuff like that and like what Ben was talking about with music or a particular smell or whatever, it really works at least for

For me, that stuff really is really strong. Yeah, and the actors have to do that a lot on the show, you know, especially in the elevator, it seems like, you know, like all of a sudden, like pick up and Brit had to do it, you know, in season two. And she was, you know, having to kind of go through where Helly was the end of episode four and then into the beginning of episode five, where these like last few moments of her consciousness were going all the way back to the end of season one. And when you really think about that, the actors are having to

do that in these very sort of unnatural settings a lot of the time. Yeah. So can I ask you guys for this season and doing your podcast about the show, like what was the most interesting, the most fun aspect of it for you as you went along? What was it that you really like engaged with in the show this season? I think,

For me, probably the thing that was the most fun was the sort of this promise that eventually Innie and Audi must collide. And I think with where we left off in season one, there is this hope that we are going to get to see what life looks like for some of these people once they clock out.

We certainly get to see that between Mark Scout and Mark S, but you want to know what Dylan's up to when he's not just in the closet talking to Milchick. And we got that stuff. And it was always fascinating to learn something a little new about Dylan and Gretchen, for instance. I think just the character work this season and a really heavy task that you all had narratively

this huge act of rebellion at the end of season one cannot help but be, you know, fully examined over the course of season two. Just the fallout of that has to be such a focus. So the narrative has been very twisty and turny. And I think that that

for me ultimately is what's keeping me locked in. Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of stuff, but I have to say that one thing that's been particularly fun is in the very first episode of season two, Milchak says that Cobell was trying to pursue Mark's Innie and Outie in what could be termed a thruple. And we've seen a lot of love geometry happen

Interesting. And throughout all of season two with innies and outies and multiple layers of relationships. So that's been one of these fun things to follow and like really getting to the heart of the question, like, who are you? Right? Like, is any Dylan and Audi Dylan the same person? What does that mean to Gretchen and their relationship? All of the intricate love geometry between Mark and Helena. I mean, it's been really fun to watch that play out.

And I think locking into that question of who are you and understanding that those first words spoken in severance are such a core fundamental idea throughout the show and catching the little bits like that's one of the very first things that Mark ever says to Gemma when they both meet at the blood drive. So as much as we've been examining the science of the show, I think it's been getting more existential. You know, we're bringing religion into it with fields at the table. And I think that it's just gotten deeper.

And it's so funny you mentioned that emotional memory and it makes me think of the Chinese restaurant scene, you know? Zufa. Did you have to eat all that food? Yeah, it was delicious. It was a huge order. Yeah, I mean, I go full and so I ate, I don't know, a

How many pounds of Chinese food did I eat that night, Ben? It was crazy. I don't know. You were voracious, though. This is a lot of noodles. This is very carb-heavy. And how many eggs at the Egg Bar Social? A lot of eggs. A lot of eggs. My nightmare. But apparently reintegration makes you hungry. That's one of the side effects.

Yeah. Your brain needs glucose. It makes sense. Yep. There you go. Well, we can't thank you guys enough. I mean, this is just incredible getting to talk to you. Yeah. I'd love to talk to you more sometime about all the sort of the actual reality connections for the show. Cause I do think having people who understand psychology and neuroscience, you know, I remember when we went to the first season, we were doing research and we went to visit our consultant at a hospital in New York and they,

just seeing the fluoroscope for the first time. And I remember thinking, oh, this is so crazy and so cool because it's almost like an x-ray, but it's like a live x-ray, right? Yeah. And I remember thinking, wow, this could look really cool in the show. But then it's also like the reality of all this stuff is, of course, the most important thing. But like, we're always trying to kind of figure out ways to show stuff that's also visually interesting and

that you can distill down enough that the audience can get it within the show. So that balance is always, you know, it's always a little bit challenging. We're always trying to push it as far as we can go, but hopefully still have it resonate with reality. You've nailed it in our book for sure. Thanks. Well, it's great to talk to you guys. You as well. And thanks for all you do. Thank you so much. We're so grateful and very, very intrigued about season three. Yeah. Can't wait to see where this whole thing is going next.

Dr. Amanda, Dr. Melissa, Josh, thank you. This was a real treat. All right. That was great. I really enjoyed talking to those very smart people. We have smart fans. Yeah. Okay. It's time for us to take a quick break. But when we come back, we will be talking with SZA.

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how are you? That's so crazy. Good morning. Thank you for doing this. I adore you so much. You brought me so much joy and inspiration my entire fucking life. And it's so funny that like you're bringing me so much joy and inspiration in this whole other way with Severance. And it's like, you're so genius. And part

of me was like damn this is kind of dark but they say the funniest people are like low-key kind of dark and like really masterful at that so it's like damn your mind is so twisted I just want to know where this came from I have so many questions for you but I'm gonna shut the fuck

Okay, well, no, you can ask questions. And both of you, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening. I have to say the collaboration between the two of you, though, and the video is incredible. Like, you guys have already made something just terrific together. I literally, I just can't thank you enough. I can't even believe you said yes, because, okay, full transparency, right? They tried to get me to concede to John Cena. And I was like, no. I said no.

I love John Cena. First off, shout out to fine ass John Cena. But I was like, no, I need my Ben. Like, please. Yes. Please, I need my Ben. And I just can't even believe you said yes. And they were like, no, no, no. Like, it's too far fetched. It's never going to happen. And I'm just like, okay, well, I can't see it any other way. I'm so happy. I'm so happy that John Cena didn't get this role. You know, it's always between me and Cena. God damn.

Yeah, you guys are always up against each other. You have to kill him, I think, probably. And by the way, I just have to say congrats on the Super Bowl. That was literally to me like my favorite Super Bowl halftime show ever. I thought it was incredible on so many levels. It was. It was amazing. Was it fun to do? I just wonder about that because it's like the biggest stage in the world, really. Like so many people watching like everything.

What's your mindset when you go out and perform like that? Okay, so I was really shook only because it's like, it is that. It's the biggest stage I'll ever do, like in my career. It's like, I don't really know where I can go from there. So I was just like, I don't know if I'm going to survive. And my performance was initially like longer with a different song. I was actually relieved that I had less opportunity to harm myself on stage.

camera or in public. And I was like, oh my God, I just couldn't believe that I was part of it. But I did a lot of meditation, a lot of breath work, which I normally don't do. But I've learned recently, it's kind of saving my life, like low key meditation and breath work and like following that road in

It's the only thing that keeps me calm. This one lady in Bali read my palm recently and I never had my palm read before. And she was like, if you don't get your emotions under control, you're going to go to jail and they're going to get justice. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, shit. And I believed her. I believed her. Right. And I just don't want that for myself. So that really kind of triggered me to dive into yoga head first. And now I'm just like...

Nah. Right. And I'm a calm person. Yeah. Yeah. So listen, tell us, what was it about Severance that like, what's for you the most interesting thing? What is it about the show that made you reach out on Twitter to me to tell me to get going and get the second season going? Yeah, get me the fuck up because what? Oh, my God.

That was a big deal. That was a big deal when you did that. We were all freaking out. First off, forgive my tone. No, no, no. It was awesome. It was great. I would never say that to you then. But also, literally, okay, so season one, right? I was making SOS and, you know, I'm swimming in my head a lot and my

engineer and I my engineer is super different right he comes from Shangri-La which is like Rick Rubin's studio which they have like their own like ecosystem and ethos of like way of doing things and

Everybody's wearing the same color. Nobody's talking. Like, it's very, it's very sevens coded. So, like, my engineer was like, oh, yeah, I'm watching this new show, whatever. And I'm like, we're so different. And, like, I'm just so curious. So, I start watching it. And by, like, the last three episodes, I was calling him at, like, five in the morning to be like, are you fucking kidding? Like, do you see what's happening?

I was like yelling at the screen. My tummy was tight. And then I just had to show it to everyone I knew. I'm like, no, we need to watch this together. Okay. Come over and we'll sit through it. And I did it like four or five times with different friends. And it was just so, it was so interesting. I had never seen anything quite like that before. And it spoke to this weird, like, exploitation.

exploitive nature that not even the external like consumerist like reality has on our being, but like our own exploitive nature and our search for convenience and like apparent laziness and or the fact that we don't even know the full extent of half

for the pathways we choose for convenience. Right. And the fact that we don't consider ourselves as like multi-dimensional beings, all these different parts of ourselves. And it's like, think about the observer, like the person who's watching the person that's thinking. And then it's like, who's watching that person that's watching you think about these things. It's like all those parts of you are fragmented. Is there any, what part of your fragmented consciousness is that?

What does it mean in terms of your general well-being? Like, if Mark is fucked up constantly as is any, did his alley finally just realize that on his own? Had he not run into anybody, would he have just eventually felt like, I don't know, I feel empty? Or how everybody at home...

home in their regular lives it was a little bit empty emptier but it's also like what is that is it because they're severed or were they already empty which is why they agreed to get severed in the first place I just love that fucking show so much I really do I just love it

That's amazing. Yeah, I totally agree with you, though. The idea of like the observer of the observer, like what is our consciousness? And I thought about that a lot when we were making the first season. The question of like, well, if Mark's Audi is going there because he doesn't want to experience the pain.

But who is he really? Because when he becomes as any, he's still Mark. So Mark isn't going to experience that pain on the inside, but his Audi is still existing in the world, but not, it's just like the question of like, who really is Mark? Is Mark is any or his Audi?

And you articulated it really well, that idea of the observer of like when we're going through life, but yet there's somebody outside of us going like, okay, well, but what is all this? You know, I feel that way sometimes. And you're right. There's like very deep questions that the concept brings up. And then it's like you keep

introducing us to deeper levels and layouts of Lumen. It's like, bro, what the fuck is Lumen? Like, is it a cult? Is it a religion? Is it, what are you at? What's the end goal of Lumen in every department? What is the actual end goal? Like, is Mark going to die when he gets completely like freed of this? Like, I just, I mean, because if Mark dies, obviously I take Mark's place and then we move forward. I think we have a season three. That would be amazing. Actually.

Hey, SZA, I want to ask you about, you mentioned Shangri-La and how it's like severance coded and it's sort of this neutral environment. So you're in there and you're only focusing on the creative in front of you, just focusing on the music. And does that work for you? Did that help? Like, what was that like? When I was at Shangri-La in Malibu, I think the whole idea of it being Shangri-La in my brain just like cooked me. So I was like, I can't make anything here.

I'm in the Beatles bus, like the actual Beatles bus. But then when I randomly like locked myself in Rick's bedroom and he like cleared it out of all devoid of all furniture, of all things and just like allowed me to stay in there for like two weeks in Kauai, everything came to life. It was weird. It was like there's something about the absence of items and

And anything that forces your brain to like flood with all these things. I actually find the same concept to be true at the ashram. I just did a vow of silence in India. No eye contact, no mirrors, no gestures of any kind. And it was very like you were finding out who your innie was. Yeah.

And finding out like all the aspects of, but only from stripping everything did all this stuff come to the surface. And I think it speaks to how much we distract ourselves with anything because we welcome that because it's actually a bit too much. Existence is actually a bit too much if we keep it plain and simple, especially the acceptance that it's all chaotic and unfair and inherently dangerous.

And like not this predestined, fated safe space where like if we try really hard, everything will turn out the way we like it or we need it to. It's really just this place where it's like, no, you're going to constantly be finding meaning for awful things that

seem awful or that unfold in ways that you're powerless over for the rest of your life and understanding the beauty and the flow, the ebb and flow, I guess, and accepting that and like becoming part of that versus like someone that's having control or fake control or under the belief, the farce that you have control at all or making your world smaller by minimizing it or doing things like trying to sever yourself or

I think severance really speaks to so many aspects of my life right now and what I'm exploring and what I'm learning. Even my home, I just started putting shit on my walls and like color on my floor. After five years of living in this house, it was just all white forever. And I just started, I don't know, I came back from India and I was like, color, realization, life. And it's just so crazy how like even that, but it took me to accept that.

All this turmoil inside to allow something to be like manifested on the outside or to have disarray or any sort of expression that was impermanent on the outside. Because I was so scared of impermanence. I didn't want to produce anything that...

reflected my personality or my essence or art. And I feel like that fear is so crippling to all of us in different areas of our life. And is that why you're saying once you were in that room and everything was stripped away, that's when SOS, it kind of sprouted to life is when absolutely everything was stripped away? Yes, literally. It was nothing but just a wooden chair and a wooden room and a single computer. It was nuts. Wow.

Well, it's an unbelievable album. It's a beautiful album. Thank you so much. Yeah, it is. And have you always had that inclination to do things like that, to push yourself to disconnect and look inward and do those things? Because a lot of people never do that. I've never gone to an ashram in India and taken a vow of silence or done things like, is it motivated by your creativity? Has it always been the way you are in terms of wanting to go inside and to really explore that stuff? Well, I think...

I think all people have their opportunity to go within, right? The universe creates it for all of us, whether it's a tragedy that forces you to look inward, whether it's a personal inequity that you are grappling with that makes you sit still or break up or...

Even sometimes when shit is going super well for some people, it's freaky and they have to sit down and like account for their existence and like all these other things. But for me, I think I was curious. My curiosity is so strong. It actually combats my fear. Like it overrides my fear all the time. And I have a lot of fear. Like I'm actually, it's so interesting. I've never met anyone as fearful and as brave as myself.

And it's so weird because I'm so terrified of everything. Like India was the farthest I've ever been from my home. And then it's like, I turn in my phone. I don't know anybody. I'm around thousands of people. I'm not going to be looking at anyone that no gestures. No, I can get kicked out at any moment. If anyone catches me making a gesture, if I fall ill, you can't communicate with anyone and you have to just handle that yourself. And my immune system is so American.

and fucking obliterated. So I'm like, oh my God, I'm never going to live. I'm never going to survive. So I'm just like, that's incredible. But I had the best time. Amazing.

Good for you. I mean, that's incredible. I mean, and I agree the dichotomy of being fearful and brave is kind of, I think, a lot of what creativity is about, too, right? In terms of like just taking chances and really, I mean, otherwise, why are you doing it unless you're trying to learn something about yourself? I want to know what's under there. It's like, I think so much.

I was talking to my therapist and she was like, you know, they're like, ultimately you're okay. And I was like, what? I'm actually not okay. And she was like, no, ultimately you're breathing right now. You're breathing and you're in a safe space and,

And you have autonomy, like, over yourself. And there's a version of you that nobody can touch. And, like, that is safe within you and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh. And then I was like, but who is that person? Who is that person that nobody can touch? And where does her value lie? And I was like, oh, shit, who am I? And so that's what really sparked that journey of, like, oh, I don't know who I am or what I'm even –

protecting like inside or like, what do I want? What do I like? Just who am I outside of my outer value to others? Even if it's like,

Like, oh, I want to do yoga so I can become more likable. Like, that's wrong direction again. Like, the whole point is, who are you? So that's the deeper question. And to find out that, like, so many things. And I think that the desire to find out, strip back more layers and peel back more limitations is, like, that's what's pushing me to keep seeking, I guess.

Yeah. Wow. That's the severance question, right? Who are you? I know. All right. Listen, this has been amazing. We have one hotline question that we want to play for you. Can we play that question?

Hi Ben and Adam, I'm Lita and I'm a chronically online Gen Zer. So I was wondering, naturally, what the zodiac signs of the Severance cast would be. Oh my god. Because I'm getting mad Scorpio vibes from Helly and Helena. So it'd be nice to know their zodiac signs. Thank you! Are you an astrology person, SZA?

I am. Okay, okay, okay. It's going to be so... It's actually so easy for me. So Mark is giving Taurus because he's grounded, but he's also curious. And his love for his partner was driving his curiosity. It's not that he wants to uncover some... He's accidentally uncovering some crazy cover-up, but it's really in the midst of, like, where the fuck is Gemma? And then Helly...

is giving Scorpio vibes, but she's almost too villainous. Like,

Scorpio would be like Miss Cobell because she's grappling between like I really just am passionate about this one thing and I'm a little mentally unstable but I do have a really serious revenge clause like in my being. Helly gives more like Capricorn where it's like what must be done must be done and the casualties are what they are but accidentally got some dick along the way. And then you have... Then you have...

Then you have, of course, Dylan and Irving. Irving is classic, like, older Virgo, like, very conservative, but, like, yearns for more, highly analytical. Nothing got past him because he totally realized that something was wrong with Helly and she was on bullshit and was willing to take it to the max. Dylan is giving water sign down. Like...

But soft, soft. Like, Pisces, Cancer, really wants to know what his children are like. Oh, my offspring wants to just sit and talk to his wife in private. Then, let's see. Oh, fucking Milchick. Milchick reeks of... Okay. He's so anal, but also...

yearns for more. He's Sagittarius. He gets fire-struck. He gets Sagittarius where it's like, Milchak will do whatever the fuck, and it might surprise you, and he's not playing at all. But he has his own things that he's grappling with in his own private time, and he's deeply analytical, and he has his own curiosities about what's happening to him. Wow. Well, I'm a Sagittarius. I'm all for Milchak as a Sagittarius. Oh, that makes so much sense. You'll say anything. Oh,

Oh, my God. Please know that I'm about to binge watch like all your movies when I get off the phone because I'm like that. By the way, congrats on your movie. You're doing it. Yeah, you're doing it. Oh, my God. It's amazing. It's so scary. You guys are crazy to pick that as a profession, huh? It is insane, right? It is so crazy. I want to I want to dive more in and just like study more and be better just to kind of become another person. Yeah.

Well, you're amazing as you are, and we really, really appreciate you. It's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on. Have a great year coming up. I hear you're going to go out and perform, and it's going to be really exciting, and we're going to come see you, and you're just awesome. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and just as fans of yours, we're so lucky that you are someone who is searching and asking all of these questions and reinventing yourself with each record you put out. It's all just such interesting stuff.

boundary pushing music. And we're just so lucky to have you on the podcast, but also just as an artist. Thank you, Adam. I'm such a huge fan of both of you. I just, you have no idea. I just feel like everything you guys is doing is actually like not to be like, it's fucking groundbreaking, but it kind of is like, no bullshit. Like, it's fucking groundbreaking. And I feel like the ideas that you're introducing to the mind and to the young mind are important. And

Are you not going to tell me what happens to Gemma? For real? Is that not the correct answer at all? What the fuck? That's why I came here. Well, you know, just keep watching. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, SZA. Have a blessed day. All right, you too. Thank you.

All right, that's it for this episode. This has been the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam. And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV+. And you can listen to every episode of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.

Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil.

We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davy Sumner. Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, Gianpablo Antonetti, Martin Balderutin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker. And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management. We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter.

I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott. Thanks for listening all season long. We've loved going on this ride with you. Absolutely. It's been so fun. We'll see you next time. All right. Thank you. Next season on The Severance Podcast. That's right. You didn't think I would only predict what was going to happen on the next season of Severance. I'm also going to predict what will happen on the next season of The Severance Podcast. Next season on The Severance Podcast, I predict Ben and Adam will come to their senses and stop asking me to do this.

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