I Do NOT: The Dollars Behind Divorce
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We are taught to have blinders when we fall in love. And ultimately, who you marry is the biggest financial decision you will make in your life. Would you wear the same shoes for every occasion? Or rock the same outfit seven days a week?

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What's up, rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me, your host, Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF and your favorite Wall Street girly. And if you are watching this episode instead of listening to it, you may have noticed a very specific wardrobe choice because today we are talking all about love and money and maybe some gold digging?

Can you guys hear my shovel? So if you are here and you are interested, you're probably wondering what do love and money have in common and why are they so important to talk about together? Well, fun fact or not so fun fact, 50% of all marriages end in divorce in the U.S.,

And sex and money consistently rank as the top two reasons why couples fight. So prenups are sadly only used in 10% of all marriages as of 2022, but it seems like we should be talking about money a lot earlier than when we actually get to the point of needing a divorce.

So as of 2023, the wedding services market was $196.58 billion with a B and is anticipated to grow to $219.8 billion in 2024 and $327.19 billion by 2028. So instead of showing you the fairy tale lifetime movie version of love, today we are going to get real.

I'm so excited to talk to our guest, and you should be too. She's a California family law attorney at Blank Rome LLP and author of an upcoming book called Love Richer. Everyone, please welcome Jackie Combs. Hi, good morning. Thank you so much for being here. I have so many questions. I'm so excited to be here. I love your outfit. You look fab. Okay, so as a tried and true divorce attorney, I have to ask you, do you actually believe in love? I do.

I do. I'm promotive of marriage. I believe in marriage. I am married and I support all my clients who want to get married. And is that hard to continue to believe in when you're constantly seeing marriages fall apart? No, not at all. Not at all. My grandparents just celebrated this week, their 72nd wedding anniversary. My parents will be celebrating their 50th this year. And my in-laws before my father-in-law passed away, celebrated 52 years. I believe in love. Wow.

Okay, so you have a family tree full of people who really believe in love, have been married for quite some time. Why do you think so many marriages end up in divorce? Great question. I think ultimately you're not on the same page. You are not partners in your life. And most times it's really about finances, right? You're not financial partners. You don't have expectations. You have not set up the expectations to have a successful marriage. And why?

Now that everyone listening is hearing this, I need to ask, in your personal life, do you have a prenup? I don't. You don't? I don't. I know. You're a divorce attorney. I know, but I'll tell you why. Both my husband and I are attorneys. He doesn't practice. He got out a long time ago. But we made an informed financial decision together.

We knew the law and we were fine with the law. Now, that being said, I also met him when I was 23 years old, right? So I wasn't anticipating, you know, the divorce. And that is, you know, I have that conversation with my clients and we've built everything together. Now, that being said, if I were to get married today with the level of assets that I have, I would absolutely get a prenuptial agreement, even if it just codified the law. Okay. So who should and should not get a prenup?

Ooh, great question. I think if you have assets prior to marriage, like significant assets, or if you own a company before marriage, or if you just really want to codify the law and set up clear- What does that mean, codify the law? Okay, so that means if you want to follow the law and you know what the law is and you're totally fine with that, and you just want an agreement that says, we are going to follow California law of how to split assets and this is what it's going to look like, you can totally do that. Hmm.

So just because you're a prenup, just because you enter into a prenup or any kind of agreement, it doesn't mean that you have to change all the terms of the law to say, this is mine, this is

Yours and there's nothing in between you can basically say no, you know, I owned this house prior to marriage I'm gonna retain my separate property interest in that house and you're gonna share in the appreciation of it Yeah, why do you think prenups have such a bad rap? They're always talked about as you don't trust me like this relationship is already off the rails before it starts because

Because, you know, we are taught to have blinders when we fall in love. It's the wedding industry. Yeah. You just talked about it. It's a $200 billion. I overspent on my wedding, by the way. Who doesn't? Of course. Who doesn't? But, you know, because we all want that bride moment. We are taught to be brides without what it means to be a wife or a partner.

And ultimately, who you marry is the biggest financial decision you will make in your life. And individuals are more likely or more willing to go into bed with somebody before they're willing to be financially intimate with somebody. And there's a problem with that. Yeah. What do you think? You mentioned this earlier about how a lot of divorces stem from having not being on the same page. Yeah. Like.

When do most people talk about money now in their relationships if you know the stat and when do you think they should be talking about money? So I don't know exactly the stat but ultimately they should be talking about it from very gecko Yeah, that's what I think too in the beginning because you want to establish like who's taking you out on the date Who's paying for that what your expectations are? Are you willing to buy joint assets together or do you want to keep things separate? You want to talk about money money should not be taboo. It's really I

empowering and positive to have financial agency in your relationship and be partners. Even if you don't decide to buy assets together, being on the same page is what's so important. Yeah. So say you and I are going, you know, we've been dating for a while. Okay. We're both so broke. Okay. Should we still get a prenuptial agreement if we want to get married?

I think it depends. It depends what state you're in, what you want out of the prenuptial agreement, what your values are with respect to the prenuptial agreement. I don't think everybody needs one, but if you are going to- That is such a unique take, by the way. I feel like I'm always like, everyone should get a prenup because you never know. You never know. Well, you never know. That's true. But I think if you're going to forego one, you need to make a smart and informed financial decision.

So at least know the law. At least consult with an attorney. Know what rights you're giving up or what rights, you know, you want. Yeah. And can I ask, what does a typical prenup cost? So it totally varies. It varies on the level of complexity. It varies on your level of assets. I've had some that have cost a couple thousand. I've had some that have cost tens of thousands. And it really just depends. But I always tell my clients up front to keep the cost down.

Let's negotiate the deal points first before we start drafting. And I think if you and your partner know what you want before you get lawyers, lawyers can just basically draft what you envision. Oh, so I sit down with my boo and we determine what exactly it'll actually mean in layman's terms. And then you guys write it for us.

Exactly. And obviously, I'm going to advise you of like, okay, well, this is what you're giving up or this is what you could do because that's my job, right? But ultimately, you guys come up with the deal. You want to set yourselves up for financial success for the rest of your life. So you guys should be on the same page about it. What is your POV on the...

technological prenup services, whether it's like the Zoom info, like the Zoom lawyer thing.com. Okay. So there are so many digital platforms now. There's Hello Prenup. Sheryl Sandberg's former chief of staff just, I think, raised $4 million to launch a TurboTax. I think digital platforms are great for prenups and divorces.

But before you sign on the dotted line, absolutely consult with an attorney. Make sure you know what you are signing and make sure you talk to somebody. Yeah. And in the same way, that'll probably save you a ton of money, right? Totally. Like you just need the final review, which is maybe a handful of hours versus dozens of them to get it done. Exactly. Exactly. I love that.

Typically with prenups, people often think that there's some type of gold digging involved. And the historical is that one person ends up richy rich and one person ends up completely destitute. Like, can you give us a couple examples of just like that's not true? Yeah, it's totally not true. Yeah. Okay. So there are multiple reasons why to have a prenup. One, it's your second marriage.

You have assets. You want to make sure that those assets go to your children. Or you have a business before you get married. Or you own a home before you get married. Or you're a partner at a company before you get married. There are certain reasons why it's important. Or, you know, family wealth. And there are other reasons, just like we talked about before, is really you're just, you know, crossing your T's, dotting your I's, and codifying the law. Yeah. Yeah.

Can I ask, what is the craziest thing that you've seen in a prenup? Oh, you see lots of things. You see lots of things. Yes, I've seen fidelity clauses. Do those work? By the way, do fidelity clauses work? Not in California. It really comes into whether they're enforceable, right? Okay. So provisions like that are against public policy. Can you explain to me what that means? It is not promotive of marriage.

Wait, what is that? I'm so confused still. It's against public policy to have a provision, let's say, about child support, how much you're going to pay child support. Or, you know, because California, for example, is a no-fault state. Like, it doesn't matter why you're getting divorced. There's nobody to blame. You are getting divorced. You can't then penalize somebody financially for infidelity. Also, what about in the different types of states? I know there's a term called community property states versus...

Not community property. Can you explain the difference between the two? California, for example, is a community property state. Other states have different laws of how your assets will be split in the event of a divorce. Hmm.

and what does it mean to be community property? Sure. So in California, what it means is that assets acquired during marriage are presumed to be community, so 50/50, unless they derive from a separate property source. Separate property assets are assets that are acquired prior to marriage, that are acquired during the marriage by virtue of gift, inheritance, or that stem from your separate property. So for example,

If you own a house before we get married, because we're getting married, and you then rent it out while we get married, the income that you receive during the marriage is your separate property from your separate property asset. Or if you have $100 in a bank account or $100,000 in a bank account, and you do not contribute any funds to that account while we're married, and it grows, the appreciation, that growth of that bank account is your separate property.

Got it, got it. So it's really like...

yours, mine, and ours separation style. Correct. And it can get a little tricky, right? Because if there's appreciation on mixed assets, like if you continue to contribute to that bank account during the marriage, well, what's yours? What's mine? What's ours? Is it derived from a separate property or is it derived from our blood, sweat, and efforts, which is our work efforts? And that would be community property, unless you have an agreement that says otherwise. Mm-hmm.

Can I get your POV on the term gold digger? Yes, and your outfit is quite fitting for today. You know, I find that term to be quite antiquated and a little lame. Yeah. Yeah, because there is a difference, right, between choosing a partner who shares the same financial values as you and same financial goals and setting yourself up to have a successfully financial marriage.

That is vastly different than somebody going out and strategically picking out somebody for financial gain or having a child with somebody just for child support payments, right? That, to me, is not a gold digger. That's a financial predator. And there's a difference, right? Wow. I know, right? Well, you think of like the Dirty Johns, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of story of somebody who is really going out to get somebody's money. Yeah, yeah.

That's different. - Yeah, that's predatory in your opinion. - Yeah, that can be very predatory. And we have to shy away from these derogatory terms of putting, I think specifically women down because being CEO of the household

Is a very valuable job. Yes. You add a lot of value to that. Yeah. And I'd love to get your take on the different roles, like more traditionally in heterosexual relationships, men and women have. How has it been seeing more and more women actually being breadwinners or earning a lot of money? Has that changed your industry in any way?

No, it hasn't. Okay. But what I will say is that you see a lot more women having financial agency in their relationship, which is a really good thing. You know, empower yourself, be financial partners, have a seat at the table and have a conversation and know where your money is going. So important. Okay. So I want to take a quick pivot. Yeah. And we are going to talk about a few things

terms or stories. Okay. And I want you to give me your POV or tell me exactly what happened. In the case of JLo and Ben Affleck, we know that they didn't have a prenup. Right. Why the hell would two people so rich not get a prenup?

Great question. It's surprising. Yeah. It is definitely surprising. I think, you know. Like their teams weren't like, hey, you should probably do this. Their teams may have said that, right? But they believed in love. They thought it was happily ever after. And that is okay. For the second time around. For the second time around, right? And that's totally okay. And they're the kind of, you know, couple where it's really easy to say what's yours is yours, what's mine is mine. Because they're significant, obviously, separate properties.

for both of those individuals. What makes it a little tricky, right, is that they bought a home together that I think is still on the market. And two is, I believe he started a production company during the marriage that has projects. So it's really just determining how those assets are going to play out. If you had been their advisor, what would you have said to try and convince them to get a prenup?

Get a prenup. You would have just been like, you must. You must. You must. Let's just, you know, make it easy, simple. You've been down this road before in a divorce. Let's, you know, not overcomplicated. I support your marriage, you know, stay married, but let's just have the paperwork. Yeah. Just in case. I love that. Let's go and pivot to, oof, this is a tough one because they were together for...

I want to say 10, 11 years, Tom Sandoval and Ariana Maddox. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a really interesting because, you know, they were together. They were not married. They have multiple, they had, I think, multiple businesses together. The cocktail businesses, the bars, what have you. Yeah. Exactly. And they had a home. Yeah. And after Sandoval went down, she, Ariana continued to live in the residence with Tom.

And ultimately, you saw on the news that she had to sue him to get the house sold. And I think a year later...

because they could not come up to an agreement. Like she couldn't just buy out his half? I don't think they were able to reach an agreement. Gotcha. Right? And I think he said publicly that he had made an offer that she didn't accept. And that is why a cohabitation agreement, if you haven't heard of one, that's an agreement that couples can enter into when they, you know, are dating that defines their rights and responsibilities about their finances. And in the event of

in the event of them breaking up, what happens to their assets? So if they have a joint house, they don't have to sue the other person to get the house sold. But instead, they have parameters clearly defined of, if we break up, it's going to go on the market within X days unless one of us buys each other out at X price. And I think the house, in their example, just went on the market last week, which is a

I think over a year and a half after everything's gone down. So I'm sure there were a lot of lawyers involved, a lot of paperwork, a lot of time. And a lot of money, unnecessary money, right? Because entering into a prenup or a cohabitation agreement or any kind of agreement, it's really an investment in yourself, right? You are paying a little bit more money upfront to ensure that you have protection later down the road.

And can we talk a little bit about this cohabitation agreement? Because I actually bought my condo with my now husband back when he was still my boyfriend. And my parents...

were acting like I was making the worst financial decision of my entire life. Can you explain to us what are a couple options for a cohabitation agreement and how they play out? Totally. So that's a perfect example, right? You guys buy a home together and you want to define like, "I own 50% and I own 50% or I put down more money on the down payment so I'm going to own it in proportion to how much I contributed towards the down payment or acquisition." If you put in money for the capital improvements or something like that.

And it also can identify how you're going to pay for expenses. So, or if, for example, you and I are dating or you and your boyfriend at the time, and he moved into a house that you owned solely. Oh, I never even thought about that. Right? So you're not, you're going to want to make sure that he's not going to claim or make any claim to an interest in a house that you own.

And you also want parameters that in the event you break up, when he would move out, that he has 30 days or 60 days to vacate the residence. So you don't have somebody, you know, who you've now broken up with, it's an uncomfortable circumstance, and they're still living in the house with you. Okay, so say you and I, we've been dating five years. Yeah. And neither of us own a home yet. Okay. We want to get one. We're not married. Like, what are the most common types of splits when it comes to we're buying a home?

So great question. You can own homes in different ways, right? So you can own it as joint tenancy with right of survivorship. You can own it as tenants in common. What does that mean? So for joint tenancy in common, it means I own my 50% as part

My full ownership, you own your 50%. If I die, I still own my 50%. And it's going to go to whoever I determine it's going to go to. So it's possible that I own half of this house and your parents or your dependents own half. That's a nightmare. That could be a nightmare. In my opinion. Okay. Totally. And whereas rights of survivorship is if I pass away, then my 50% goes to you. Nice.

Yeah. I think that's what we have set up. Yeah. I was like, I'm not owning this with your mom. Like, this would be crazy. Exactly. But that's the conversation to have, right? Yeah. Because, you know, when couples get together, they have different financial circumstances and they may have obligations. And you talk about this in your book.

about you don't loan, right? You gift, but taking care of families. And so that's a conversation, like really important conversation before you buy an asset together or start seriously dating of what your expectations are and financial values are.

- Okay, got it. And for our last example couple, I'd like to ask about Shannon Beder and John Jansen. - Okay, so was it a gift? Was it a loan? The facelift money. That is a great example of why cohabitation agreement is so important. Because before there was a transfer of money from me to you, we know that's gonna be a loan unless I write a note that says this is a gift. There's no fight about it later down the road.

I love that. So I want to pivot from some, maybe some more negative conversation, pivot towards some really positive stuff. Have you actually experienced couples filing for divorce and then during the process being like, nevermind, we're going to stay together? Yes. Yes, I have. Tell me, don't name names, but tell me, you know, an example of how or why this even happens. So

So I've had quite a few clients. Quite a few? Who have reconciled, right? And that's great. You know, they want to try to make their marriage work. And like I said earlier, I- Is it just because it's too expensive to divorce? Well, sometimes finances are a reason. Sometimes it's children. Sometimes, you know, people have second thoughts. It's a really big decision. Particularly if you've been with somebody for 20 years, 30 years, even 10 years, you know, what is on the other side of that journey?

But, you know, like I said, I'm promotive of marriage. And I actually, I always talk to my clients. Like, are you sure you want to go through this? Are you having second thoughts? Do you want to talk to, you know, reconcile? I support you. On average, like a percentage of the couples that do end up reconciling during the divorce process, how many of them actually stay married? A lot of them come back. Oh, okay.

Whether six months or a year later, yeah, a lot of them come back. Okay. And then for the marriages that were saved, what do you think really saved the marriage? Because they were at the brink and then to actually be able to make it work, like something had to have changed, right? You know, a lot of thought, a lot of therapy maybe. And really working on whatever was causing, you know, the divorce. Yeah. And I know you are a divorce attorney. I'm not trying to take away your business, but if...

The people listening at home have a partner that they're kind of getting to their wits end with. What are a couple steps they can take ahead of actually calling up a divorce attorney? Like what are other softer solutions that can maybe get them to a point of reconciliation?

go into therapy. Start talking about your problems. Communicate. That's the problem, right? So many couples don't know how to communicate and communicate about big issues. And it's really not one big issue that's really going to demise the relationship. It's a buildup you see. And if you are able to communicate about the little things, you're going to be so much better at communicating about the

because life is gonna throw you so many curve balls and there's so many stressors and you wanna be able to get through those issues together. - Okay, and we talked about how sex and money are typically the top two reasons why couples fight. What are the most common financial issues that you've seen in relationships? Like what do they fight about?

Lack of financial transparency, not being on the same page. You know, somebody wants to buy a house, somebody doesn't want to. You are not aligned financially in your relationship. Is this the case for folks who have a lot of money versus who don't have as much money? No.

No, whether you're talking about $20 or $2 million, conversation is still the same. It's just the amount that you're discussing is all relative to your financial circumstances. Got you. So it's the same conversation. Same conversation. Just more zeros. Just more zeros, yeah. And how, in your eyes, can a couple, aside from just communication, actually be good with money together? Yeah.

Be on the same page, right? Set a financial plan together. Be partners. When you want to communicate about finances, treat it like any other business meeting. Set a time, set a place, set an agenda, stay on topic.

Treat each other like business partners because who you marry is going to be the biggest financial decision you make your entire life. And you want to treat your partner like a business partner. So stay on topic. Don't have financial conversations when you want a Netflix and show, right? Don't have financial conversations when your partner is on deadline at work. Really establish a framework.

And an environment where you can be vulnerable and honest and have an open dialogue. And that is going to help you or set you up for success. I love the idea of treating it like a boardroom meeting, like an agenda, a location, a time. Absolutely. It's like a standing money date. It's a standing money date. Exactly. And so many people don't do that because they don't know how to communicate about finances. And you talk about that a lot in your book, right? Especially at work.

And then people get upset and uncomfortable and you kind of, you can explode. Whether you're talking about getting new drapes,

or you're talking about how much money to put into a 529 plan for your child. But being on the same page and setting up those expectations early and talking about it early in your relationship will help you have a long lasting relationship. I like that so much. Obviously, you can't talk about your own clients, but what's the most expensive divorce case you've actually ever heard of?

So we work with, you know, extraordinary high net worth individuals. And I will tell you this. It is not those who have the most money who spend the most on divorces. It's those who want to fight. And I tell my clients all the time, do not fight for principle. I would rather... Oh, like don't fight just to fight. Don't fight just to fight. You are going to lose. It is a lose-lose, don't waste the money, pay for peace of mind.

So give your spouse, be generous with your spouse, move on with your life because the mental and financial ramifications of staying in the divorce process longer than you need to far outweigh the financial benefit. Have you seen the meme of the couple splitting up their beanie babies in court? Yeah. Can you explain to me what was going on there? Beanie babies were a really big thing.

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Yeah, they're like real assets for sure. They were real assets, right? But like why were they in a courtroom with a pile of them? Yeah, they were splitting them up. I can't tell you. I mean, it's ridiculous, right? It's really ridiculous. And it really demonstrates of how silly this is.

the divorce process can be. Don't fight over pots and pans. Buy new pots and pans. You're gonna make the money back. Don't fight over the furniture. Don't litigate over non-necessities. - What do you think couples should be doing to split their finances in advance? Like just your personal POV, do you prefer a fully separate, a fully joint, or like a yours, mine, and ours situation?

So I'm not a financial expert. But as a family law attorney, I will say this. I think that you should always have access to cash. You should always have your own money. Always have your own money. But that doesn't mean that we can't have yours, mine, ours. It just means I know that if I need a little cash to do X, Y, and Z, I can go do that. I love that. That's a really, really good answer. And-

We got to cover something kind of sketchy. Okay. Let's talk financial infidelity. Financial infidelity. What if you don't even know what your partner has when you're going into a divorce? Like, what if I've just been lying to you this whole time? Like, what if I have credit card debt or a secret seven-figure inheritance or, like, any of this crazy stuff? Like, how do you figure out what each of you is actually worth?

They won't tell you. So in California, for example, you have to do complete financial disclosures before you get divorced. So you have to say, this is, you know, list all my assets and all my debts. And you have to sign it under penalty of perjury. Oh, okay. That's real. It's real. It's real. You know, so yes, before you sign on the dotted line of getting divorced, you want to know what your partner has.

But financial infidelity is real common and really scary, you know? And it happens so much more often than people are willing to admit. I mean, we've seen all of the headlines recently, right? Like Tinder swindler, like Sweet Bobby, all of the shows and movies about people literally being scammers. Yeah.

Like, it's crazy. It's really scary. And those are financial predators, right? Yes, yes. But aside from that, in your relationship, that's why it's so important to be on the same page and to communicate openly and honestly up front and set your expectations up up front about finances. Because you don't want, like you said, to get in a divorce and find out that your spouse has taken, you know, a $200,000 personal loan that you had no idea about. Because if you don't have a prenup...

that could be you're on the hook for half of that. So that can be really scary. Okay. We are going to play a fun little game now. Okay. It's called Rich or Ditch, Marriage Edition. First up, one partner having their name on the deed on a property where both partners live.

Oh, that's not a rich or ditch. That is a facts and circumstances situation. Ooh, tell me what that means. So depends, right? Did you buy your house prior to marriage? Did you inherit that house? Did you receive it as a gift? Or is it a house you purchased together and with what funds? Yeah. So really just depends on the facts and circumstances. Okay. Okay.

What about an allowance for stay-at-home partners? Ditch. I hate the term allowance. What do you think we should do instead? So situations that people who are the CEOs of the household do still have their own money, even if they don't have an income coming in traditionally.

So let's get away from the term allowance and instead let's talk about financial planning together and budgeting together. So I have access to the cash. I know what I should and shouldn't spend with, but I'm not getting an allowance because I'm cleaning the house.

paying your partner's loans of any sort, whether it be student, credit card, like what's your POV on that? I think that's a very generous and nice thing to do. Oh. Yeah.

You know, I think it depends, though, if you're making that choice as a gift. I think that's a really generous thing as long as you guys are on the same page about it. But if you can, I claw it back in the divorce. Yeah, exactly. But that depends. Right. If your expectations are that you're going to be repaid and, you know, student loan debt is your separate property. If you acquired it prior to marriage. Right. You know, with some parameters about that. But yeah.

You know, just setting up your clear expectations. Assets, not assets in divorce, like a dog. Well, a dog is property in California. Dog is property. But the courts can consider the best interest of the animal, right? Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people fight about the dogs. Wait, but like... I would fight about the dog. Yeah, but I'm like envisioning the...

Legally Blonde scene where she's like, "I'm taking the dog!" - I know. - Great movie. - Who decides what is actually better for the dog? - The courts can decide. The best interest of the dog. - But how do they decide that?

I wish I had the answer. You know, who's going to take care of the dog? Who pays for the pet visit? Who takes the dog to the park? It's like child support. It's like, you know, it's your kid, you know, but you know, oh, I love dogs. Yeah. Same. Okay. And last but not least, the more traditional household setup, single breadwinner,

Totally cool. Totally. You're cool then. Yeah, I'm totally cool with it. Because again, being CEO of the household is a big job, right? And Eve Rotsky, author of Fair Play, you know, has done a lot of research and quantified that I think that amounts to $175,000 of unpaid labor each year. Yeah. So, you know, if I'm CEO of the household, so you can be CEO at ABC company, that's a really good thing, you know? And as long as you're a team about it, right? We're making this plan together as a couple.

- Inheritance, me keeping all of my inheritance. - Yeah, it's yours. - Versus us splitting it. - It's yours. - Really, okay. - It's yours and I think if you decide you want to give a gift to your spouse or your partner, that's again, a very generous thing to do. And as long as you feel good about it and don't wanna say, "Okay, take backs." - Okay, what about, say we have already gotten married. We didn't get a prenup and I want one now.

What's the difference between a prenup and a postnup? So a postnup is basically post your nuptials, right? It is after you get married. And a lot of any difference aside from just the timing.

- No. - Really? Okay. No, I mean, there are different fiduciary responsi-- you know, obligations that you have to somebody who you're married with versus somebody that you are just dating. So there's different legal language and layman's terms that go into the agreement, but ultimately it can define your assets, it can define support, it can define the same, you know, things. Okay. Can we do a little role play? - Sure. - We're married.

You have decided we did not get a prenup. You've decided you want to post up. Yeah. How would you broach that subject with me? I'm just like chilling on the couch unaware and you're about to come and talk to me. What do you say?

well i think it depends on why i want the post nap right so if i've just inherited money and i say to my to you honey i'm you know inheriting this money or i've just inherited this money i really just want to codify the law and i want to make sure that this is ours or i want to give a gift to you ultimately you really need to be sensitive about the conversation and make your spouse feel vulnerable and comfortable with having a dialogue and not saying

"This is what we're going to do. And either we're going to stay married and we're going to do this or we're going to break up." - Oh, people say that? - Oh, yeah. - What do you do if you have broached the subject with your partner of like a post-nup or a pre-nup and they react super duper negatively? Like they do not want to do it? - Recalibrate, right? And really come from a vulnerable reason as to why you want the pre-nuptial agreement or the post-nuptial agreement.

Maybe, you know, set it up like a business reading, right? Identify the agenda, whether you need to then go talk to a lawyer or a mediator or a therapist to really work through what is the reason that you want this agreement. It doesn't mean you're setting yourself up for divorce. There may be an underlying, you know, reason why it's important inheriting something or, you know,

you know, there was infidelity in the relationship and you need to work through that. And you want to know that your assets are going to be, you know, separate at that point to feel incentivized to stay in the relationship. Okay. I want to close the interview out on two big questions. Okay. What is the messiest thing you've ever seen people fight over?

The pots and pans. The pots and pans? Like, actually the pots and pans? Sometimes people will fight over the pots and pans. Or, you know, not leaving the house, you know? Okay. Or...

It really just depends. People can... It's never really about the pots and pans or leaving the house. It's the lack of control. And, you know, during the divorce process or even like the prenup process, you can feel so out of control because you are relying on other people to help navigate and advocate for you during a very difficult transition or what should be the happiest transition of your life. And not...

being in total control can be really unsettling. - I lied, I have one more question. - Yeah. - Why do some people leave the marriage, both parties are sad, both parties are happy, and in some cases, one person is happy and one person's sad?

- Well, reaching a deal, like any negotiation, parties come to a compromise. Sometimes it's a good compromise, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you have different expectations of how it's gonna go. Two households is more expensive to run than one. So ultimately,

marriage is a journey and you're at the end of the journey. And a lot of times my clients are really happy to be on the other side and they want hugs. You know, they want to go out for drinks. They want, they're so happy, but it's also the end of a chapter, right? A really beautiful chapter that just unfortunately didn't work out in the long run. Yeah. So, okay. Um, and yeah,

Last question I like to ask is, do you have any questions for me? Anything Your Rich BFF can help with personal finance-wise? Absolutely. I would love to know what a lot of individuals want to know about prenups, divorces, and how they can communicate better about their finances and their relationship. Hmm.

Hmm. Okay. Well, I didn't plug this by the way. I didn't, she's not a plant, but we will actually be doing a quick, you're rich BFF hotline after this, and we will be taking real questions. Um, and you can find them on my sub stack. Um, but I want to ask before we wrap, where can everybody find you? Thank you so much for being a treasure trove of wisdom. I feel like I've learned so much.

Thank you. So I am launching a platform, love.richer, on Instagram and other social media outlets. And the whole platform is really how to be able to communicate about finances in your relationship, why it's so important to do that. And so if you have any questions for me that you need answers on, please DM me and I will get to you. Amazing. Love.richer, guys. Check her out. Thanks, Jackie. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you liked the episode, make sure to leave a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Got a burning financial question that you want covered in a future episode? Write to us via podcast at yourrichbff.com. Follow Net Worth and Chill Pod on Instagram to stay up to date on all podcast related news. And you can follow me at yourrichbff for even more financial know-how. See you next week.