The Psychological Habits of Real Wealth with Lewis Howes
58:48 Share

My brother went to prison for four and a half years selling drugs to an undercover cop. All the excess money that my parents had, which wasn't a lot, went towards legal fees and the stress around having less money. It was just felt. And these little memories and moments created wounds within me. Nintendo was big back when I was a kid. We couldn't afford a Nintendo. People were playing roller hockey, and I would play in sneakers because we couldn't afford rollerblades. So just little things like that. It was just like, "Oh, we don't have enough."

But for me, those wounds were deep. It shaped my belief system around money where I didn't understand it. There was never enough. How do I make money? How do I manage money? How do I invest money? I just had no clue. What's up, rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me, your host, Vivian Tu, aka your rich BFF and your favorite Wall Street girly.

So today we are talking all about wealth, but it's not necessarily just the number in your bank account. A lot of the times it has a lot to do with mindset. There are some people out there who have a lot of zeros in their bank accounts, but they have a very broke mindset and very much vice versa. Folks who might be living paycheck to paycheck, but have an abundant mindset.

So one of the first steps I actually talk about in my book, Rich AF, is understanding that you need to change your relationship with money. And today's guest is not only a success in his own right, but is an expert on helping you create the mindset that you want to have the life that you deserve.

So he's the mastermind behind the School of Greatness podcast with over 500 million downloads. Holy shit. I think it's over a billion now. Is it? That's an outdated number. Wow. Okay, okay. Yeah, correct me, please. Talk that talk. A New York Times bestselling author and a former pro-athlete,

You wouldn't be able to tell because he's actually 5'2 in person. He just looks really, really large on camera. I'm going to start spreading this rumor. But this man has interviewed everyone from business titans to celebrities and to yours truly. But today we are turning the tables. I'm hosting. You're answering. Everyone, please welcome Lewis Howes. Support for Net Worth and Chill comes from Amazon Pharmacy.

The last thing you want to do when you're sick is go pick up your prescription at the pharmacy because then you're standing in a long line with a whole bunch of other sick people and everyone is sick of being sick, especially around other people

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I'm so glad that we are back together. Funny enough, the last time I was on your podcast, I was on your podcast.

I was about to launch a book, and this time we're here to celebrate yours and to learn a little bit more about how to make money easy. Everybody look. Because most people make it hard. I mean, that's real. That is for sure real. And you are a super responsible guy. You have a super... Okay, listen, I'm just spreading rumors on this podcast right now. You're 5'2 and you're responsible. Yeah, 5'2 responsible. And you have a...

But in fairness, you do a really super successful business. And you're putting out phenomenal content. Thank you. But. Our interview blew up. People loved it. I mean. All the clips got like 20 million views or something. We vibe. We have good banter. Yeah, that's true. But since we have established that. Because we're the same height. You know, that's why. Yes, yes. We are the exact same height.

We're like twins. Twins. Couldn't even tell us apart in a line. Exactly. But since we've established that you are so responsible, I want to know, what is the dumbest thing you've ever spent your money on? Crypto.

Tell me why. I lost over 120 grand in some like sub crypto coin like in 2020 when everyone was, well, originally I had friends who were getting invested into, I don't know if you can call it investing, but depending on, yeah, I guess it depending, depending how you do it. If you do it full time, like eight hours a day, I think it's investing.

If you're like, I'm going to put money in and just, it's going to go through the moon, then I think it's a gamble. Yeah. I think if you're paying attention and you're putting your energy and focus on something, it could be an investment. So I don't want to say that because I know some people who would do it full time and they make a living from it. Yeah.

But I was like, all right, I'm going to jump in. I had friends get into it early in 2017, probably, I guess, the second wave of it. And I said, no, I'm not going to do it. Then I got in around 2020 when I had all the time on my hands, sitting around and everyone's on Zoom calls talking about the next kind of thing. And I was like, God, I'm not going to miss out on this. And I put 120 grand into something. You were FOMO.

I had FOMO and I had, I mean, listen, I had some extra cash too. So I was like, all right, let me risk it. I'm willing to risk it and lose it. But I don't like losing money. It doesn't feel good. So I feel dumb for doing it now. But then it's like, okay, we see some people who make a lot. And this is one of the reasons why I got into the research behind my own money wounds. Like, why was I chasing money? Why was I? And, you know, the reason I call the book Make Money Easy is because I don't think you can make easy money.

And I think a lot of people try to make easy money and rarely does that work. And it's not sustainable. Maybe you get an easy win. Like maybe you got in early on crypto or something and it's like, man, you got lucky and you got out at the right time so you made some money. Easy.

But if you keep trying to do that same strategy, it's usually not going to work long term. Right. And so I think the goal for me was, okay, I still have money wounds. Sure, I've been good at making money over time, but I wasn't always good at making money and I struggled with it. I didn't understand money. I was afraid of it. I had a lot of scarcity inside of me around money. And when I found some money mentors early on, I started to learn how to

monetize my skills and how to be consistent and hopefully be more responsible. But I wasn't responsible in this crypto thing. And I still, it doesn't feel good still today. You mentioned your money wounds. Can we like roll the tape back like into little kid Lewis? Like where do you think some of those money wounds came from?

I think everyone has a complex childhood, whether they want to believe it or not. Even if they have a good family life or they had good parents or they lived in a good neighborhood. You know, Bella lived in Massachusetts, probably had two parents that were married, live in middle, upper class in Massachusetts, probably went to like maybe a private boarding school in high school. Who knows? Are you profiling my assistant? A little bit, but I could be completely wrong. Okay. I could be completely wrong. Maybe she went to a public school. I don't know.

But she had a lot of rich friends. I bet she had a lot of rich friends. Some rich friends. Did we, Bella? Who knows? No, not quite. Well, depending where she went to school, who knows?

Anyways, I'm just saying, people could have a good childhood, good family life, good parents, good friends, not that many traumas, but still have a complex childhood. And our money story really starts to shape our belief system around money and our beliefs around everything in life. And I believe our beliefs dictate or influence our behaviors. And so when we start to have a story that we think about and the memories that are intertwined into our nervous system, into our mindset,

We have a money style. We could be anxious. We could be avoidant. We could be, I'm going to spend all day long and not care what I spend on. We could have a certain style based on our story. And my story was my, I was sexually abused when I was five, not to get too deep here on this show, but I was sexually abused when I was five. So I had a big abuse and taking advantage of wounds by a man that I didn't know, the babysitter's son, who's probably in his late teens. That was one of my first memories.

Now, I had two parents that loved me, but they didn't love themselves. And they argued about everything constantly, it felt like. So I had this anxiety around being at home. So I left home at 13 to get away from my parents and just home life. I also started stealing a lot when I was 10, 11, 12. So I would steal like candy bars at stores or cigarettes or whatever I could do just to feel powerful because I felt powerless at home.

When I was eight years old, my brother went to prison for four and a half years selling drugs to an undercover cop. So all the excess money that my parents had, which wasn't a lot, went towards legal fees and the stress around having less money was just there. It was just felt. Again, we weren't sleeping on the streets, but we weren't middle upper class.

And these little memories and moments created wounds within me, you know Nintendo was big back when I was a kid we couldn't afford a Nintendo So it's just like oh we don't have enough people were playing roller hockey and I would play in sneakers because we couldn't afford rollerblades So just little things like that and it's all perspective based on where you live and where you grow up but for me those wounds were deep and

It shaped my belief system around money where I didn't understand it. There was never enough. It's confusing. I don't know who's going to give me money. Why would someone give me money? How do I make money? How do I manage money? How do I invest money? I just had no clue.

So I said, I'm going to go all in on pursuing my dreams of being a professional football player. I went to play arena football in my early 20s. And then I got injured in my first season. I was just going to ask you all about this. Like, what happens when someone who is your size, 5'2", or probably what, 6'5"? 6'4". Yeah, 6'5", 6'4".

You put all of your effort into something that has been glorified, frankly, in our culture as like your ticket to freedom, your ticket out of there. And then you get hurt. It's devastating. Were you terrified? It was my whole dream. So it was more than just a dream. It was an identity. So imagine getting married to the man of your dreams and then all of a sudden he breaks up with you. And it's like your whole life and your dreams and your identity is in a relationship with

it feels devastating. You're like, you're not sure who you are, what to do next, and what's the purpose of it all? You start questioning life, you start questioning the world, you start questioning your belief systems around God. Everything is questioned when your identity shifts.

And for me, I had no money. I was in college debt. I hadn't graduated college yet, so I didn't have a college degree. I was a few credits shy. And this was the end of 2007 when the housing crisis, the crash happened, 2007 through 2009, I guess. So I'm sleeping on my sister's couch for a year and a half. I'm 23, 24 years old, have no money.

can't buy anything, and I'm living off of her. So I just felt helpless. Again, I went back to this powerless state. And it's a state of mind. It's a state of being. And for me, I didn't know what to do. So for about a year, I'm kind of just sitting there recovering from this injury, the surgery that I had, and kind of just a little depressed, a little down, sad, not sure what to do, and hoping that other people will take care of me.

Your sister? My sister was taking care of me and after a year and a half, she gave me an amazing gift. She said, "You gotta pay rent or you gotta leave." She forced me to step up. She was coddling me for a period of time, probably a little too long, but thankfully she let me stay there for a while. And she said, "You gotta pay rent or you need to leave," in a loving way. And so like any other youngest brother would do, I called my older brother and said, "Can I stay with you?"

He said, you need to pay $250 a month for a room to rent. And I was like, okay, I got to figure out how to make money. And it may seem small, 250 bucks a month. But for me, it felt like thousands of dollars. I was like, how am I going to make any money? I have no skills, no clue how to monetize my skills and what my skills are. Who would ever give me money? Why would they give me money? What value can I bring to someone?

And it was at that time I said, "I need to find some mentors." And those mentors started giving me clues and opportunities to take action to develop skills, which eventually turned into wealth. What is one of the most important things that one of those mentors taught you? Probably one of the most important things I heard was money comes to you when you're ready for it. And at the time, sleeping on my sister's couch,

having no money, I said, "I'm pretty ready to make money. I'm pretty like, I'm ready for this. Bring it to me, give it to me." And he just kept saying, "Money comes to you when you're ready for it." And maybe feel free to push back on this if you think it's BS. But at that time, I was not emotionally ready to receive wealth.

Had I had thousands of dollars coming to me at that moment, I probably would have spent it on crypto or gone out and just blown it. Like I would have spent it. I wouldn't have learned how to be a steward of the money to really navigate it and to feel emotionally safe. I would have been like, ah, what do I do with this? My nervous system would have been excited and I probably would have blown it on something.

I think my take on that is similar, but it's actually a physics principle. An object in motion stays in motion. So if you are someone who is a responsible money manager and you get money,

You're going to do the right thing. Yes. The same way that you were if you had less of it. But if you were already kind of acting a fool with your finances, you getting a large lump sum of money doesn't suddenly turn you into the responsible person. No. It just exacerbates the type of person you already are. So I agree in that money comes to you when you're ready for it, but more so when...

Money stays with you when you're ready for it. 100%. Because it'll come to you whenever. You might blow it though. Correct. And then it just might be gone again. Exactly. Which is, you probably know about all the lottery winners and how they blow, most of them blow it all. And pro athletes. And they're broke within seven years. And pro athletes go bankrupt, a lot of them within a couple of years after their retirement because they just weren't ready for it.

Maybe they're ready to play the game at a high level, but do you understand how to manage money at a high level? That much money at 18, 19, 20. I don't know. I wasn't ready for that. No. I would have been excited about it, but I probably would have blown it.

And so about a year and a half, two years after that, as I started to make some money, and once I learned how to make money, it actually started to come pretty quickly. It was like a switch turned on. It took a couple years of like, gosh, I'm just struggling to make a few hundred dollars here and there. But once it was like, oh, I made $6,200 in an hour one time.

Doing what? I did a free live webinar. This was in 2000, either end of 2009 or 10. I did a free live webinar teaching an audience of people about LinkedIn, how to use LinkedIn to get quality relationships and connections and build their profile. Because that's what I was doing on my sister's couch. I was obsessing about LinkedIn to try to connect with people to find a job.

And eventually someone was like, hey, I really like your profile. Can you show me how to optimize mine? And I did it for free. And he said, here's $100. This is going to change my business. And I was like, you'll pay me for this? I'm just kind of tinkering around on here all day to try to like meet people and make my profile look good so I can get a job. Right. And he was like, you have no idea what you just did for me because I've been trying to figure this out. I don't understand it. And I go, oh, OK. Maybe if one person will pay me $100, I can get more people to do this.

And I took that as far as I could until I was like, oh, this isn't scalable. Okay, why don't I write a book? I'm hearing about people writing books about their stuff. And someone wrote like a Twitter book at the time. So I was like, oh, maybe I can write a LinkedIn book. But I don't know how to write. I don't know how to do a book. I don't know how to publish. So I found a mentor who had written books. And he just gave me the lessons. And I followed the prompts. Within six months, wrote a book about LinkedIn in 2010. Wow.

And then I was like, oh, selling a book for $20, you don't make a lot of money. I was like, okay, people are starting to do these like online courses. Maybe I could do like this webinar and do a course, but I have no clue what I'm doing. I found a mentor with a model who had already done it. And so my first webinar that I did was with another guy promoting it. His name is Joel Calm. He promoted it to his audience. So I was just a speaker doing it for free.

And he said, I want you to have a course that you can sell at the end. I go, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm going to act like I do. I'll figure it out. I didn't have a course. I had a PayPal link for people. This was like pre, like any course platform was out there. And I just had this long PayPal link that wasn't even customized. And I said, here you go. Like type in these letters, like PayPal slash whatever.

And within 30 minutes after the webinar was complete, I opened up my email and every line said, you've received payment. And it just like, it exploded something in my mind in that moment. And they didn't buy anything. They were just donating it. They pre-ordered. Oh, they pre-ordered something that did not exist. It did not exist.

I was like, hey, guys, if you sign up for this in two weeks, I'll send you information. Maybe. Yeah, you'll get this thing and I'll do a live webinar training in two weeks, every week for four weeks. I was like, I'm going to do a boot camp. And that's how I sold it. I pre-sold it. You pre-sold it.

And for me, I never created anything after that until I pre-sold it because a lot of people would make these courses or programs without people raising their hands saying, I'm interested. They just thought they knew what people wanted. But I'd rather have someone pre-order something or really show interest, whether they're opting in for a newsletter or something around that topic before making the program. And that was a big eye-opener for me. I mean, I was freaking out. Again, I'm paying $250 a month at my brother's house at that time.

It's in the middle of Ohio in the summer. I'm sweating during the webinar. There's no video camera on at that time. But I'm like in a wife beater tank top, like sweating. And I'm freaking out that $6,200 was instantly in my PayPal account. That was more money than I'd ever had in my life. Right. And it just broke my mind. And I was just like, wow. Wow.

The power of reaching the masses with a message, but really adding value. And you asked me like, what's one of the biggest money mentor lessons that I had? One of them was money comes to you when you're ready for it. And like you said, money stays with you when you're ready for it or you're responsible for it. But another one was really the power of the spoken word.

I was terrified to speak in front of a group of three or four peers all through school. I could not share my message or my vision with anyone without stuttering and just being afraid. And I met someone, another mentor, who is a professional speaker.

And he was like, if you want to influence anyone in a career, a boardroom, or you want to be a speaker in the future, you have to overcome your fear of public speaking. And you have to learn spoken word and written word. And I said, well, how do I do that? And he said, go to Toastmasters. And so do you know what Toastmasters is? Yes, yes. I had no, I never heard of it before. It's a public speaking course class. You pay a hundred bucks a year for it. They're all over the world.

And I went every single week for the next year. And I was so bad. I was terrified. I was horrible at giving speeches. But doing it every single week for a year, I got better. And by having that training, it gave me the courage and the confidence to do this kind of live webinar. And I started doing free workshops and paid workshops and speaking on stages after that point. But I was never a talented speaker. And still today, I have a lot to learn.

But that lesson of the art of communication has made me a multimillionaire. And it's changed your life because I feel like so many people are terrified of public speaking. Transformed my life. And I think even today probably like just Gen Z, I don't know. I worry about the younger generation because I just feel like they're constantly on their phone. They're not even connecting with their friends next to each other. It's like they're just messaging.

And maybe they will need to be have the ability to speak on stage or in a boardroom or whatever it might be. Maybe they don't need that in the future.

But for me, it has given me an incredible life. You talk a lot now on your podcast, over a billion downloads. And a big thing that you do talk about is like people's past mistakes and how we can all be better, how we can be greater versions of ourselves. What do you think is one thing that people really struggle with just across the board when it comes to their money or their mindset?

Support for Net Worth and Chill comes from Amazon. Have you ever gotten sick on a very expensive, very non-refundable family trip? Amazon One Medical has 24/7 virtual care so you can get help no matter where you are. And with Amazon Pharmacy, your meds can get delivered right to your hotel fast. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful. Learn more at health.amazon.com.

I believe that the biggest thing that holds people back is self-doubt and them doubting their abilities. How do I get rid of that self-doubt? You got to heal the past. And that's why I talked about money wounds early on. You know, a lot of my things are about...

I believe self-doubt is the killer of dreams. When we doubt ourselves, it doesn't matter how talented or smart you are, you're going to limit yourself on what you're able to do. I've seen in sports, for example, I've seen incredible freak athletes, way more talented than me, just not here in the mind, not have courage, not have confidence, and it holds them back. But there are three main things that cause you to doubt, self-doubt, that hold you back. The three fears.

Fear of failure. A lot of people are afraid to put themselves out there because they don't want to fail. And if I'm in a room and I ask people to raise their hand if they've ever been afraid to fail, most people in a room say yes. I'm afraid to go after my dream because I don't want to fail. That's the number one fear for people that holds them back, that makes them doubt themselves. The second thing is something that I never understood, which is the fear of success.

And I always wanted to succeed because I never felt like I was good enough. And so I wanted that acknowledgement. I wanted the success to feel better. But most people, I realized, they're afraid of the weight of gold, right?

There was a pressure. Explain that to me. There's an amazing documentary called The Weight of Gold about Olympic gold medalists who train their whole life for a dream. And then they go and win the gold medal. And then within weeks and months, they're depressed. And they can't manage the pressure of success. They can't manage everyone reaching out to them asking for something. They can't manage the weight of living up to that success. And that weight holds people down.

What's the old term? Like heavy is the head that wears the crown or something. It's like- To whom much is given, much is expected, much is required. All this stuff. It's like you have that responsibility. You said to me, you're a very responsible guy. It's a pressure to be responsible every single day and show up and be responsible in your marriage, be responsible with your team, with your money. It's like you have to be on your game consistently. Yeah.

And it's a lot. And if you're not ready for that pressure, it could cripple you. And for me, I look at pressure as a privilege. Like I welcome it. And I know it's what's going to give me a richer life, a more abundant life if I'm able to be disciplined enough

and routine enough to handle the weight of all the emotions, all the pressure, all the critiques, all the comments, good and bad. I've got to be able to navigate that emotionally, which means my nervous system has to feel safe.

And I think if you want to live a rich, abundant financial life, you have to... And manage it well, you have to have a calm nervous system. Talk to me about that. How do we make our pressure work for us so that we can do whatever we want instead of choking? I think you got to put yourself in pressure-filled situations consistently. You have to create micro-stresses throughout the day. Micro-stresses? No. You have to create these micro-stresses. So for example...

Um, every day I create micro stresses around waking up early. Like I don't want to do that, but it's like a micro stress in terms of, yes, I'd rather sleep another hour. But I told myself this is my dream and this is what I want to create. And it's going to require me getting up early so I can go work out. So I got to do that. I got to take care of me.

And my future self is thanking me every time I make a bid to wake up early that morning and I move my body. I don't have to kill myself in the gym, but just doing what I said I was going to do, my future self is thanking me. And that's a micro stress that is powerful. It's expanding my container to create a richer life in my health, money, relationships, whatever it might be. Another example, I just got married three, I guess three and a half, almost four weeks ago, right?

And I remember when you came on my show, you were talking about the marriage stuff and everything. You're giving me some advice. So I appreciate that advice. And I just got married a month ago and I have a book tour and I've got seven cities and I'm doing pie. And I'm like all these things. I'm like, this feels overwhelming. But I know by stretching myself right now,

And by just making it more uncomfortable, it's going to feel like a breeze the rest of the year. Now, I'm not going to do this every week and every month. I'm not going to get married and plan a wedding and do destination wedding and then do a book tour every week, every month. But it's like it's expanding me to be able to carry and contain more so I can have a richer, more abundant life. And so you've got to figure out what works for you to create these micro stresses that

to be able to contain more pressure in your life and not break. - So we're making these micro stresses in our life, but my question is, how do we keep our word to ourselves? I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with. You know the people, January 1, I'm gonna eat right, I'm gonna work out, I'm gonna get a better job, I'm gonna do everything. Like, how do I make my word? 'Cause when I make a deal with someone and we shake hands, we're good. I'm gonna do right by you.

But I break deals with myself quite a lot. I don't know if you're going to like what I'm about to say. Oh, no. You know, I'm seeing this, it says unlicensed therapy up there in the corner of this room. I think you break your word more when you haven't healed your wounds. Again, I just go back to- Again, we have to heal the wounds. Again, it doesn't, and again, I break my word. It's not like I'm this perfect human being. I'm out of integrity with myself frequently. But I feel like I'm more in integrity with myself than I'm out of integrity.

And I try to break it down into daily wins. I really try to manage just the day, not the whole year. What am I saying I'm going to do for myself tomorrow and making sure I show up at the highest level of integrity and one day at a time. So for me, it goes back into healing the wounds of the past or the memories of the past that cause you to feel emotionally charged or emotionally triggered by

When life happens, when something's happening in life, are you reactive? You probably know way more about physics than me. But anytime there's an event happening, are you triggered and reactive to it in a negative way? If so, it's poking a wound, an emotional or psychological wound. If you broke your arm and I poked you in your arm, you'd be like, ah, and you'd be like, get the heck off me. But if someone...

you know, cuts you off in the street, are you emotionally or psychologically reactive? If so, there's some type of wound, some type of trauma that is not healed yet in your nervous system that's causing you to be defensive, guarded, or feel taken advantage of. So I had many psychological and emotional wounds that made me feel insecure with money and made me feel like

especially when I felt like someone was taking advantage of me or overcharging, I would get really reactive because I felt abused as a kid and therefore I felt abused as an adult. And money was an emotionally charged thing for me. And in some ways it still is. It's not like I've mastered this. It's a constant journey. Do you have like a money story that is just the most poignant memory when it comes to you and your money? Yes. Um,

I was in elementary school and my brother went to prison and I grew up in a small town in Ohio. So everyone knew everyone's stuff in the suburbs, right? And I wasn't allowed, or at least it felt like this. No parents came up to me, but it felt like I wasn't allowed to have friends at this point. Because your brother. My brother's in prison, right? So-

The neighborhood parents, do they want their younger kids hanging out with me? Probably not. You're like, oh, that's a bad kid, right? Just by association. And so I didn't really have friends from this time. And I felt very lonely and unworthy, all these different things. And I remember there was two kids down the block who were starting a club. I don't know if you were ever in a club as a kid. But they started this like after school club in their parents' basement, right? Yeah.

And I was like, ah, I want to be in the club. Just like excited. And they said, okay, there's two ways to get in the club. You can either answer questions to get in correctly or you have to pay. And I was like, okay, well, I don't have any money. So what's the questions? They asked me the questions. I didn't know the answers. So I felt dumb. And they said, you need to bring back $5 to be in the club. If you want to be essentially be our friends. And so I went home. I asked my mom, I say, I want to join this club. Can, can you give me $5? She looked at me with disappointment and

Not necessarily because I had to pay to have friends, but because she didn't have the money to give me. And so she said, okay, go to the couch and unturn the cushions and see if you can find some change. I'm going through every cushion I can, every drawer in her dresser to try to find loose change. An hour later, we get $5 of change. She puts in a shoe box and I take it over to these kids' basement where they have the club. And I say, here's the money.

And for the next hour, these two kids are kind of playing by themselves in the corner of the basement and I'm just there alone. And so I feel so humiliated that I pay money for friends and they still don't want to hang out with me. I never went back after that day to this, you know, imaginary club.

And it just was a memory that created a wound, right? It may seem like silly or simple today to talk about. That's not silly or simple. I understand. That's deeply hurtful. But for me, it was a wound that, again, it never healed. And more stories and more things like that happened. People stole money from me. I stole a lot of things from people as well, from stores. And so it just created these micro wounds that never healed, that became a story that shaped my beliefs. And those beliefs...

influenced my behavior in life. Death by a thousand paper cuts. Exactly. And so that was just a cycle and a loop, and that behavior created kind of my money strategy. It was how I engaged, how I received money, how I spent money, how I hoarded money. For years, I wouldn't spend anything. I was afraid to go broke again. So I was a millionaire, but I wouldn't spend it because I was terrified to go back on my sister's couch. That's not a rich life to me. That's not an abundant life. That's scarce.

And again, it made me feel insecure with the money I had in my late 20s, early 30s.

And it took years to unwind and to heal and feel more confident with it. How has your money relationship changed now? I know you say you're still on your journey, you're still working on it. But how have things shifted and how have they gotten better? You know, the reason I wanted to kind of research in this book was not because I had like the answers because I wanted the answers. Because I was like, okay, I'm still not financially free. Yes, if you look at my net worth...

you know, people would do anything to have that net worth. And I would be like- You should be free. 100%. I should be free. But I was like, why am I still struggling with money even though I have a lot of money in the bank? Why? I have my retirement set up. I've got my life insurance. I've got my tax savings plans. I got my HSA accounts. I've got my charity accounts. I've got all the accounts that every financial planner has told me to do and then probably too many other things. And I could still do more. But I'm like, I'm set up. You know, I'm okay.

Why do I still not feel free emotionally, psychologically around my money? And so I wanted to dive in deeper and really interview people like yourself who have more knowledge than me and say, what is this? What is this process? And interview the therapist and the psychologist and the billionaires who have gone through depression and all these different things and say, how can I be financially free? And for me, it came down to really understanding first the wounds. And I go back to this because I feel like

It doesn't matter how much money I had, unless I was able to go back and address the wounds and forgive myself and create meaning from those wounds, then I can set myself emotionally free. And once I'm emotionally free, I can feel more financially free. I can feel richer in myself.

I can look myself in the mirror and say, "I accept you. You're forgiven. I love you. And everything's going to be okay." And again, this might sound a little weird. This might sound a little off and people may not, maybe not thought this was going to happen during this. But for me, money is an energy. And if my energy is scarce, I'm going to feel trapped. If my energy is abundant and peaceful and harmonious, I will feel free.

And when I look at my bank account or when I receive money or when I spend money, I was not feeling free. I was feeling anxious still. And I was like, I no longer want to feel this way. So what is it going to take to help me to be free from myself? And by healing those wounds of the past, creating a new story and a new strategy, I can now receive money and say, thank you. Thank you for being here.

Where do you want to go? My friend Ken Honda wrote a book called Happy Money. And he told me this lesson. When money comes to you, I don't care if it's a penny or a million dollars or anything in between, say thank you. Say thank you to the person giving to you. If you see it on the street, pick it up and say thank you. Thank you for coming to me. Where would you like to go? And I'm going to ask you this question. If money was a person and money walked in the door right now and it was a person and represented a person. Oh, a person. Okay. And it walked through the door.

How would you react to money? Say I wasn't here and you had all the time in the world. What would you do or say or not do if a person walked in who represented the relationship of money to you? What would you do? You know what's so funny? I want to lie to you and say that I'd run up to them and hug them, but I'd be like a little nervous. Why? I can't tell you. I think just a little bit of trepidation, a little bit of...

Like, what if I do the wrong thing? What if I hate this question? I'm glad you're sharing this. This is powerful. I really, really wanted to lie to you and be like, I would run. I'd be so happy to see money. No. This is fascinating. Now, I want everyone watching or listening to imagine money walks in the door right now. It's a person. It represents a person and the emotional, mental feeling you have around money in your life.

And I want you to leave a comment below, whether you're on social media or YouTube, leave a comment and say, what would you do if money walked in the door right now as a person? And I'll give you an example of someone close in my life who's in their late 20s of what they said. I said, you're at a restaurant and money walks in. What would you do? And they said, I would go to the bar, hide. I'd go to the bar and hide. And then I would start talking about money behind its back and gossiping about money.

Then when it came up to me, I would try to avoid it, but then it came up to me, I would act like I'm interested and intrigued and excited. Then I would use and abuse money when I needed it. And then I would ghost it and I would never respond to it. And I go...

Man, money must not feel loved in your life. Imagine the relationship that money has with you if you treat it that way, if you think about it that way, if you act about it that way, if you talk about it behind its back. Imagine your friend, your money, your friend is that relationship. How do you think your friend would feel if they came in the door and you ran away, you gossip behind its back, you ghost your friend, and then you use and abuse your friend?

Imagine that relationship. It would suffer. Yeah. It would be a horrible relationship. And I want you people to imagine their own relationship with money. And I think the way you feel free around money in your life is by having a beautiful relationship with it.

And that means we have to start reflecting on our money relationship. So what is it? Do you ever speak about money? I know you talk about a lot of these things, but do you ever have healthy conversations about money or are you afraid to talk about money? Okay, just notice. Do you ever even open your bank account or you're too afraid to see what's in there? When you spend it, do you feel anxious and afraid? Do you feel like you can't spend it on certain things? Just imagine your relationship and start to assess and reflect on it.

and see how does it make me feel? Is this a beautiful relationship?

Or does it not serve and support me in feeling free emotionally? And again, and imagine your best friend, the one that you can actually say anything to, even if it's scary, but you come together stronger after. The person you never gossip about behind their back because you really love them, you respect them, and you would never want to hurt their feelings. The person that they call you and you pick up or you call them right back when you get a moment and you say, what do you need? I'm here for you.

The person when they walk in the door, they say, "I'm so happy to see you. You're such a gift in this world. Thank you for being my friend." Just imagine that relationship and if that was a similar relationship you had with money. I feel like you would have a beautiful, harmonious experience around the money in your life

Whether it was here, whether you were spending it, you had a lot of it, you had a little of it, you would have a healthier relationship with it. And speaking of healthier relationships, you have top seven habits of folks who have a really good relationship with money, have a strong money mindset. Can you share maybe one or two, tease it for us? Well, this is the thing. Once you understand your money story...

you can start to notice what your money style is. Okay, am I anxious? Am I more avoidant? Or do I have a- - Where are you? - I would say right now I'm very secure, but it doesn't mean I don't have triggers that still cause me to say, "Oh, why did that come up for me? Let me reflect and get back into a peaceful place around this." I would say I'm a very responsible person now around money, but it's because I've made a lot of mistakes. And it's because I set up systems in place and I automate things so I don't have to think about and stress about it as much anymore.

And I used to not spend more. I used to not wear, like I have a Rolex that a friend gave me. And I used to never wear like things that were nice. You know, this is actually like a $30 t-shirt or something. It's just kind of whatever. But I never used to wear nice things because like, I just want to be modest and this and this. But I was like, if someone gives me a gift, I'm going to appreciate it. I'm going to say thank you. So I'm going to wear it more.

I made a nice ring for myself. I was like, I would never make this type of like blingy ring, right? I like the blingy ring. You know, I was like- This is your wedding band. This is my wedding band. I like this. And I designed it and I was going to do something like very simple. I have another simple one too, but I was like, you know what? I need to keep having these kind of courageous moments around money and invest in me. And even if it's like different or feels off, it's, I need to take those steps for me to grow and expand my abundance.

But the first habit within the book that I talk about is you've interviewed and you know a lot of billionaires and people who have exited companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. And I've interviewed so many of these individuals. And the ones that I really respect are the ones that are giving back and who also care about charity in their life. And they want to give some of their money.

And I always ask these billionaires, like, what do you think is one of the main reasons why you're able to earn more every single year? And probably 80% to 90% of the time, the first thing they say is, it's because I give more. Every year I give more. For whatever reason, the next year I make more than I did the year before.

And it's not just like giving more that's comfortable. It's being like, oh, that's a lot. Like, oh man, that feels like, should I really like write this check or like wire this much money? Like that's a lot of money. Even though it's for a good cause, like, yeah, I'd rather have that money. It's like the uncomfortable giving to serve another person, another organization, communities, all those billionaires.

that do that and feel like they have a rich, abundant life, because there's billionaires that are scarce in my mind that don't have a rich life. Of course. But the ones that I feel are free emotionally, they give more. And I think that is a powerful distinction. And it's the first habit for me. Because when I was broke, I wasn't a giver initially. I was a taker. I said, someone help me. I have no money. Can you help me give me a job? Can you give me the answers? Can you give me advice? And I was a taker.

And I wasn't getting any results. And when I started to shift that energetically to saying, how can I be a generous human being? And I didn't have money to give at that time. So I couldn't give money. But I said, how can I ask curious questions? And I realized that was one of my biggest gifts. And I turned it into a massive- A podcast, a whole business. And I never thought asking questions could make me a millionaire. Yeah.

And it didn't happen overnight. It took years. You told me 10 years the last time I saw you because I asked you. I was like, I'm building out a podcast. Yours is incredible. Like, what's the secret sauce? And you told me 10 years. I just had my 12-year anniversary last month. And so every week for 12 years, I've done a podcast. And I've sat across people like yourself, brilliant minds, and said curious questions. And I did that early on when I had no money as well.

And I didn't think it was being generous. But when you ask someone for advice you're taking, when you ask someone about how they overcame one of their hardest challenges in their life, you're giving them a beautiful gift.

And people love to tell stories about how they overcame to get to where they are. They don't want to give advice if they're busy. How many times you get an email that says, can I pick your brain for five minutes? Can I take you out for coffee? Can you give me some advice? But if someone, maybe you don't reply, but if someone says, Vivian, you know, God, what you've done is incredible. You're my inspiration. You're a hero to me. Like I see myself in you.

And I would love to hear your story about a challenging time in a previous relationship or how you really left Wall Street. When you said this one thing, it really just opened me up to this amazing opportunity for myself. And I'd love to hear your story. Are you open to sharing that? I'm 10 times more likely to respond to that DM. More likely. It doesn't mean you will for everyone, but you're more likely to say, I'll send a quick voice note. I'll send you a quick message. Like, sure, hey, we'll do it in the future, right?

And you're giving you a gift, not taking from you. So the first habit is the mindset habit, which is to give generously in your life. It doesn't mean you have to give money to people, but you need to be thinking, how can I be resourceful in my generous giving, my energy, my love, my attention? Can I ask people questions and not talk about me? And early on, when I had nothing to give, all I had was passion. I was just like excited to be around people. Yeah.

And people who are in their, you know, late years, they were like, they have no energy. So they wanted to be around my energy. And I could give that. So the first habit is the mindset habit. And it is gratitude and generosity is the gateway to abundance. So if you can be appreciative for things in your life, whether it's a penny, a dollar, someone's time, and you can give generously, you're going to create abundance. Don't be a taker, be a giver.

I love that advice. Can we get a teaser on number two or? Sure. What's the, well, the second one, or do you want me to give you? No, your favorite. My favorite is the, well, there's the mindset habit, the mapping habit, which is about creating a clear game plan for your money. Yeah. Talk to me about making a game plan. Because a lot of times people just say, I'm broke. I want to have more money. Yeah. And

They say, I want to make a million dollars. But they're not really clear on why they want a million dollars, when they want the million dollars by, and how they're going to make that million dollars. So wait. So why? Why, when, and how. OK. Yeah. So why do you want the million dollars? When do you want to make this by? And how are you going to make it?

For me, I wasn't really even thinking about that on my sister's couch. I just said, I want to make enough money to get an apartment on my own. So that's the why. Yes. I want to be off my sister's couch. I want to feel like a grown ass man and live by myself or be able to afford my own place. And in Columbus, Ohio at the time, I found an apartment, a rundown apartment for $495 a month. This was the cheapest place I could find in Columbus, Ohio.

And I was like, I just need $495 a month, maybe a little bit more so I can like buy some ramen noodles, right? Maybe a bed. Maybe a bed. But I was like, I'm going to borrow a bed from someone. I'm going to go on Craigslist and get a free bed, like whatever. But I was like, I need $495 a month. So what I was thinking was, I want to think of a season of time right now where I can make a certain amount of money. Sure, one day I'd love to be a millionaire, but I think we should be thinking about seasons of life.

What do you want to make this year and why? What do you want to make in the next three months and why? And how can we start creating a game plan to monetizing the unseen skills inside of you to make more money? Because there was a lot of untapped skills that I had that I didn't think were monetizable that became skills and tools that made me financially free.

And that was the skill of curiosity, the skill of asking dumb questions, which I didn't think you could ask dumb questions and make money. But I was like always asking these dumb childlike questions like an eight-year-old would ask. Which, side note, you are by far one of the best interviewers I have ever met. Thank you. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. But I asked these kind of like random dumb questions. And I didn't think it was a skill that anyone would pay me for.

I had big fears around speaking at that time. I didn't know how to read and write. I was dyslexic growing up, so I was very afraid to put my words out there to be criticized.

But that's when I got mentors and I got people to teach me how to overcome these fears. So I made a list of the untapped skills or the unseen skills inside of me, and I started learning how to maximize those. And I said, what are a list of all my fears? I need to go overcome those fears. Combining those two made me more resourceful and made me more courageous to try and risk things to create more money. So the mapping habit for me was, what can I do in the next three months?

Don't try to think about like some big number right away. It's like, what do I really want right in this season of life? So for me, that's a powerful thing is getting clear on the map in your life. The monetizing habit is really tapping into your skill sets. And I didn't know what they were. I had to ask people. People had to call me out and say, man, you've got a lot of energy. You're very youthful. You know, I was 24 at the time.

Youth is a superpower. Energy is a superpower. And you may not think that's a skill you can monetize, but trust me, it is. Youth is wasted on the young. That's true. I didn't waste it. I went all in. I used it. The fourth one is the mastermind habit. This is the thing. The mastermind habit has made me more money than anything else in my life. And it's simply...

who you know and building relationships with people, the right people in your life. And I remember the first mastermind I went to, a mastermind for those who don't know is a group of people specifically, usually in an industry that have a certain amount of knowledge at the same skill level. Subject matter experts. Yeah. And it could be five people in a room. It could be 50 people in a room, but it's kind of coming together, sharing ideas over a period of time. Usually it's a weekend. It could be once a week for an hour, whatever it might be. I got into a mastermind

early on. I was 2010 and I had just started kind of building this online course business. And I remember in this first year, after I made $6,200, I went hard for the next year. And I made about $250,000 in sales kind of that first year. And I remember it was just like, how do I break through to the next level? I went to this mastermind. It was a group of probably 20 guys and gals. And after this weekend, I met five people who

throughout the weekend that I said, "Hey, I just want to help you for free on your LinkedIn profile and just help you optimize this so you can make more money. I don't want anything in return. Just want to help you. Give. Give generously." The first habit.

All of them were like, man, this is really powerful. I got some powerful connections. This is going to help me in my business, these five people. Each one of those individuals over the next three months said, hey, will you do a free training to my community? They all had online audiences. Can you teach for free? And I said, sure. Can I offer my course and give you 50% of whatever I sell? They said, yes.

Within three months, I did a half a million dollars in sales. Wow. And it was just because of one mastermind group where I gave generously, and then they offered an opportunity for me to share with their audience and sell a program. They gave you access. They gave me access. And they had the audience. I didn't have an audience yet. And I was like, wow, it opened my mind to the power of masterminds. And again, not taking, but giving first and being open to receive. Yeah.

And I have been a part of different levels of masterminds for the last, I guess, 15 plus years. And it has brought me more wealth than anything else. But also just industry knowledge, saving you time, saving you energy by being in the right room. So anyone watching or listening, they should try to get into a mastermind with you. And before I let you give away anything else of these incredible seven habits, we are coming up on time. So I have a couple of extra questions. Go ahead.

What do you hope people will actually see improve in their lives once they get a handle on their money? What other sectors of life is this going to help impact? Well, I mean— I know you're going to say everything, but talk to me about it. Well, I just think the most important relationship you have is the relationship with yourself. And when you— Explain that to me. Well, if you don't love and like yourself, how are you going to love and like others?

If at the end of the day, you give all your love to everyone else and you appreciate everyone else, but then you look yourself in the mirror and you literally look in your eyes for five seconds. And if you can't say, I love and I like you, you're a good person. You're doing good. You're not perfect, but you're showing up. You're doing the best you can. And I really admire you for the courage you continue to show up with. If you can't do that, you're going to live a miserable, poor life.

You're going to feel scarce. You're going to feel never enough. You're going to feel like it doesn't matter how hard I work. I never feel good enough to me. It doesn't matter if the world says you're amazing if you don't think you are lovable and likable. And I'm not talking about this big ego. I'm amazing and I love myself and shouting in the mirror. I'm pretty. Yeah. No, it's not about that. It's do you feel you're living in accordance with the best version of you for where you're at today with the skills, the tools, the knowledge you have today?

Did you show up kind when typically you react in a negative way? Were you more patient with people in your life, with your crazy mom who's always asking you to do something or your ex whoever? I need to work on that. You know what I mean? And it doesn't have to be perfect. There's no way that every day I'm perfect. Of course.

But can I be good with me? And for most of my life, I was never good with me when I looked in the mirror. I could fake it, but it didn't, for real, didn't feel like I loved, accepted, or liked myself. I hated myself. And no amount of money, no amount of success, no amount of followers and accomplishments made me like myself more. So I needed to do some deeper healing work to forgive myself, to forgive others, so I could feel free. And again,

I'll share one quick story that emulates this because I know we're short on time for you. But I was living in Los Angeles five years ago in a fancy building, an expensive apartment building. A lot of celebrities were there, billionaires, the whole thing.

And I was probably the poorest person there. But it was really close to my office building. And one day I went on road trip for a weekend and I came back. And as I came back into the valet of the building, there was a white tent in the valet.

And I made a joke to the valet attendant. Someone didn't jump, did they? And he looked at me and said, yeah, he did. And I thought he was kidding because there was a white tent in the parking lot. Someone jumped off this building. And it's one of the most expensive buildings in LA. And I was like, kind of in shock because I'm around extreme wealth in this building. And I later did some research. And the man who jumped was worth a half a billion dollars, his net worth.

But he was not emotionally free. It was the day after Father's Day. He was estranged from his son. He didn't have a relationship with his son. And I'm not here to assume I know everything that happened about this guy, but something inside of him was blocking him. He didn't love and accept himself if he was willing to take his own life. No amount of money made him feel free because he had some other demons he had to face. And

It's sad for me to see anyone suffer in life. I don't care if you're poor, if you're rich or whatever. It's sad for me to see people suffer. Because you've been there. I've been there. And we all have different levels of suffering. And my goal is to set people free emotionally.

I believe financial abundance can give you more tools and resources to feel free. But if you can't look yourself in the mirror and feel like you're a good person, you are trapped, you are blocked, and you're a prisoner within yourself. And it's almost like, and then I can't say it's worse, but it's almost like you've worked your whole life to be a millionaire, to be a billionaire, and you still don't love and like yourself? What are you working for?

The only thing we should be working on is the inner work. The excess money is a bonus. Having money and feeling emotionally...

uh, wounded constantly and like you're never enough is almost like a bigger pain than being poor, but loving and accepting yourself. Because your external reality is so different from what you think it's like. Yeah, exactly. And you're like, oh, everyone's praising me, but I can't even accept myself because I'm worthless. I'm a nobody. I'm an idiot. I'm that little kid that everyone made fun of or whatever it might be, their wound. And it's just like no amount of money, success, followers, or fame will make you feel free. Right.

You got to do that yourself. You got to do it yourself. Matthew Perry lived in that building as well. I saw Matthew Perry walking around and he was constantly, it seemed like he was just like drunk, you know, drugged up. And he didn't commit suicide there or he didn't pass away there. It was later, a couple of years afterwards. But it's like there are celebrities who have all the love from people in the world, but don't know how to love themselves for whatever reason. And I don't know his story or what he went through.

But it's just we see it all the time here in LA. I'm sure in New York, it's like people are chasing to try to fill a void instead of filling the void and expanding with abundance. And that's what I want people to experience.

I absolutely love that. And it's so funny as someone who feels very good with their money, I'm actually very excited to read your money book. Lewis, tell us where we can get it. Tell us when we can get it. Give us the URL. Yeah, I mean, you can go to Amazon or any bookstore, but makemoneyeasybook.com. It's out March 18th. And again, if you want to have a better relationship with your money, then that's what this is about. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate you. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you liked the episode, make sure to leave a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Got a burning financial question that you want covered in a future episode? Write to us via podcast at yourrichbff.com. Follow Net Worth and Chill Pod on Instagram to stay up to date on all podcast related news. And you can follow me at yourrichbff for even more financial know-how. See you next week.

Thanks to Amazon for their support. Have you ever been so sick that the thought of standing up to go to the doctor made you even more sick? Amazon One Medical has 24-7 virtual care so you can get help while horizontal. And with Amazon Pharmacy, you can get medicine delivered fast, right to your door. You just have to make it to your door. Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful. Learn more at health.amazon.com.