Ep 467: How To Stop Fighting About Money with Ramit Sethi
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We claim that our rich life is spending time with our family, but we're spending 15% of take-home pay on delivery fees for pizza. And you start to realize what we say is our rich life is not being reflected in our numbers. Now, it doesn't make you a bad person. Everybody, including me,

My numbers are misaligned with my rich life. That's life. We just need to constantly be going through the process of trying to realign. Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining us today on Her Money. I'm Jean Chatzky. Very glad to have you along with us today. The topic of couples and money. It's one we keep coming back to on this show because money is wealth.

one of the issues, if not the top issue, that causes couples to fight, even causes couples to divorce. But we know so much of that heartache could be avoided if we could just get ourselves to talk it out, if we could communicate more, if we made more of an effort to have those difficult conversations

before our relationships started to struggle. Don't get me wrong, not saying that these conversations are easy. They can be fraught. Money is emotional. It is so personal. That is why it often feels easier to just

kick the can down the road one more time. But my guest today, Ramit Sethi says these conversations can actually feel good. That they can be something that brings you and your partner closer together and that you may even start looking forward to them. Because ultimately, when you're talking about money, you're talking about life. You're talking about the life that you are building together.

That is a beautiful thing. You all know Ramit. He has been here before. You have loved it when he's been here before and he's got a new book out. It's called Money for Couples. No more stress. No more fights. Just a 10-step plan to create your rich life together. He also hosts the popular podcast with the very same name. He is an entrepreneur, a media personality, and has a

a show on Netflix called How to Get Rich. Ramit, welcome back. Thanks for having me, Jean. Good to see you. Nice to see you always. You have sat down with hundreds, maybe thousands of couples to talk about their money problems. Why do we have such a tough time talking about this?

Well, in America we have a very tortured love-hate relationship with money. We love money. We certainly love looking at people in Bora Bora on a Tuesday on our Instagram feed.

But we also hate money. We hate the idea of having to sit down and talk about it. We even have phrases. Oh, we got to have the conversation. It's funny. We would never say the same thing about parenting. Oh, we got to have the conversation about our kids. It's not the, it's a thousand conversations. And it's not we have to, it's we get to.

So if you understand that most of us have this love-hate relationship, of course we want money, but we don't necessarily want to talk about it, manage it, acknowledge our feelings about it, then you can understand why it's so easy for us, especially in a relationship, to avoid it. There was a new report out from the Journal of Consumer Psychology and it said that people expect money talks to lead to an argument. They expect them.

to lead to an argument. In my mind, that's just setting ourselves up for failure. You're right. And consider that we only really talk about money when we are fighting.

It's not like many couples are like, hey, let's create our agenda for our monthly money meeting from chapter eight and we know exactly what to say and we always start off with a compliment. I want you to do that, but the reality is that most couples don't talk about money until something goes wrong and then the person walks in the door, they go, I can't believe you spent that much at Target. I can't believe you went to the gas station again and bought five energy drinks. And then they fight

They go to sleep on separate ends of the bed. They wake up, pretend it didn't happen and wait six weeks until it happens again. Of course we hate money because we're not talking about it and connecting joy with money. Hey, what's our rich life? What's all this work for? What do we get?

That is how we start to change our relationship with money and make it positive, not negative. I'm laughing because honestly, some of the titles of the episodes of your podcast, they feel a little bit like a live grenade. I saved $5,000 for an engagement ring. She secretly took the money. Or we flew to Lisbon for Taylor Swift, but my $5 beer is the problem. I mean, I wonder...

Is it hard for you to find people who have these holy cow issues or is this just normal? Oh, it's very normal. We have a wait list of thousands of people to come on our podcast. Let me share some shocking statistics that I've discovered from speaking to many couples on my podcast. 50% of the couples I speak to do not know their household income.

I want to say that again because it's not a typo, it's not a mistake. Five-zero, 50% of people do not know their household income. I'll ask them, "Hey, looking at the numbers, you plugged in, it looks like you make 75k a year or 150 or in some cases 600k a year. Did you know that?" And they'll both just stare and shake their heads. There are couples who feel anxious about money. They felt anxious for 20 years.

And they go, we just need to make more money. If we just made 120K, we would be okay. And then I look at their numbers, which they themselves prepared for me, and they make 123K. This happened on a recent episode. I said, you have thought for the last 10 years that you make 90K. You actually make 123K.

What does that tell you? And they were shell-shocked. Why do people not know this? And how do people not know this? I love your question. Gene and everyone in the financial industry is like, how can this be possible? But how is it possible that I drive a car and I don't know how it works? I have no idea. How is it possible that when I lift weights, I don't understand how gravity works? I just know that it's heavy.

So this is the same way that people think about money. They are worried about it for 45 years. They will cry about it, fight about it, sometimes spend on the things they love, but they will be very hesitant to actually dig into the mechanics. Let me tell you a few reasons why.

Most of us operate on a pure monthly basis. That is the extent of how far people operate. It's like driving in the fog. All you can see is 15 feet ahead, and here I am asking you, oh, what's 25 miles down the road? You go 25 miles, I'm just trying to survive. That's the first. Second, we are inundated with the financial industry telling us all these crazy phrases that are so irrelevant to us. Some 24-year-old doesn't need to know about estate planning. What do they care? That's irrelevant. The financial industry loves to inundate people.

And then they slap them with these AUM fees and all this BS. What is really helpful is for people to realize, oh my God, money is a skill just like speaking another language or parenting or any other skill that we can learn and get good at. And there's a payoff. When I get good with my money,

I can go to a restaurant and order whatever I want guilt-free. I can travel. I can pick my kids up from school and see them with a smile on their face, go to the park,

That is what a rich life can give us. But I have to be willing to learn the skill. And part of that starts with knowing how much you make. You mentioned chapter eight. I actually don't want to start with chapter eight, which is the monthly money check-in. Can we back up the truck and start where we need to start in order to get this rich life cooking? Yeah. And that is what we're going for. We are going for a rich life.

not an adequate life, not paying bills. Our life is so much bigger than that. And I don't like seeing people play small. I want a rich life, not just to survive. The first thing that we can do, whether you are dating or whether you've been married for 30 plus years, is to have what I call your first positive money conversation.

And I use that term advisedly because most of us have never actually talked about money in a really positive way. So here's how you do it. Quick, it's four parts. It's really quick. First off, you go to your partner, you go, you know what? I've realized that when we talk about money, a lot of times it doesn't go the way I want it to. Maybe I'm a little bit overbearing. I know I don't come across the way I want to, but I want to connect with you so that we can do this as a team.

That's the first part, and that is you sharing what you want and maybe being a little vulnerable, something that maybe you're not living up to. The second part, how I feel. Right now when we talk about money, I feel stressed. I feel overwhelmed. I feel lonely. How about you? Notice that I'm leading with my own self and my feelings, and then I'm getting my partner involved. This is not a monologue. I want to hear from them. Then how I want to feel. I want to feel good.

I want to feel confident. I want to feel calm. I want to feel connected. What about you? And finally, when should we talk next? How about Thursday night? That's it. Give each other a big old hug and a big kiss and call it a day.

Notice that in that conversation, which takes what, five minutes? We're not talking about my asset allocation. We're not talking about how you overspent at gambling last week. We're not talking about any of that. We're just creating a path forward and we're giving each other a hug. That is the first positive money conversation and all of us can do it today.

That makes complete and total sense to me. You're building a framework. And what I liked best about it was how after each step you said, and how do you feel? How about you? Right? You're not monologuing. You're actually dialoguing, which is the point. Yeah. It's so common that money is such an intimate, private topic to us that when we first start talking about it,

We often feel that deep down we need to get it all out. If I get it all out, then my partner will understand. But if you think about other metaphors, we would never do that. For example, if you were dating somebody, first time you meet, you go out, you would never get it all out. You would just, all you're doing is just seeing if you like them and talking a little bit, being curious. And

And you know that deep down, you have time. You have time to get to all this other stuff. Sure, you'll pull out your spending and you'll look at your taxes. Yes, okay, we'll get there. But right now, we just need to connect. That's where we start. Once you've built that roadmap, that bridge to the next conversation, what takes place? The next conversation or series of conversations is really about what is our rich life.

Now, this is something that I find is sorely lacking with couples talking about money. In fact, when I ask couples, what is your rich life? The vast majority of them, over 90%, have no vision of a rich life. And I'll ask them, and you know what? They always say the funniest thing. They go, I want to do what I want when I want. I go, oh God, not this again. This answer that everyone, they think they're so clever. And I'm a professional, so I go, wow, that's so interesting. What do you want? Blank stares.

Think about that. We go our whole lives working, raising kids, doing all these things, and we don't even know what the purpose of it is?

What is your rich life? It could be as simple as I want to have three iPhone chargers in my house so I don't have to walk across the house to get a charger all the time. It could be as simple as that. It could be as big as I want to travel two months a year, all of us together, and we want to bring our family and on and on. It could be small, it could be big, but you've got to at least have a vision. So in these conversations where I show some specific questions to ask in the book, I'm

You're exploring what is our rich life. Yours might be different than mine. That's okay. For example, my wife, she has a what I call money dial, the thing she loves to spend money on. Her money dial is self-care. For me, it's not really a thing. I'm not super interested in that. I love hotels. I love a nice hotel.

And that's okay. We can both have individual money dials. But what is our shared vision? It is probably that we want to be generous. It's probably that we want to save and invest. It's probably that we want to live a nice lifestyle, a convenient lifestyle. And if we can agree on a few key things, then and only then can we start getting into the numbers. Notice that the numbers come last, not first.

Yes. And this is what people look, I've been doing this, I think, for as long as you've been doing this. And I think this is what people miss that the romance in money and there is romance in money. As you know, the romance in money is in the dreaming about what this tool can actually do for you. Dream and then go back to the numbers and figure out what it's going to cost. But you got to isolate the dream.

I love it. Yes. Everybody listen to Gene. You have to start with the vision, the dream. And the dream can be modest at first. It can be like, you know what? This year for my birthday, it's a big birthday party.

I want to go out and I want to treat three of our closest friends to a birthday dinner. Amazing. When I was starting out my career in my early 20s, my rich life was simply to be able to buy appetizers at a restaurant because growing up we couldn't afford it.

$10, $15, that was it. That was incredibly meaningful to me. Now, as my business has grown and my career has grown, of course, I have grown my vision and so should you. But it's important to know that your rich life is yours. If some people, for example, they wanna have a big old house,

We don't. And that's okay. So you each choose what your rich life is, but that dreaming where the two of you come up with it together, oh, it's so fun. It's so fun. And it can sometimes be something that is on your list of worries. I spoke actually to a young man, a man in his early 30s. His wife is in graduate school, and his idea of a rich life was...

being able to earn enough money to put his wife on his health plan because that was the thing that kept him up at night. That was the thing that worried him. So what I want you all as you're listening to Ramit here to remember is that whatever it is that's meaningful to you, it counts. You shouldn't be censoring yourself. You shouldn't be telling yourself, oh no, that's not a rich life. That doesn't qualify. If it matters to you, it qualifies.

So we've got our definition, and now it is time to look at the numbers. Yes. What's the best way that you find to do that? I believe there are four key numbers that are important, and I believe that most people waste their time trying to track everything.

Listen up, everybody. You don't need to track the price of turnips. Nobody cares. Oh, lettuce went up three cents. Who cares? If you're focusing on $3 questions, you are very likely ignoring the $30,000 questions. So there are four key numbers that matter, and you better know them. But if you know these numbers, you don't have to worry about the price of a coffee. So I'll give you an example. Here are the four numbers. The first is fixed costs.

This is everything from your rent and mortgage. It's any debt you have, car payments, groceries. It's what you need to keep the lights on. My recommendation is that is 50 to 60% of your take home or after tax pay. The next is investments.

Now, this is where the real wealth is created. I recommend this be at least 5 to 10% of your take home, although the more the better, because again, this is where the real wealth is created. And this is really where you should be spending time thinking and tweaking and really getting excited about, less so on the price of hot dogs, okay? Irrelevant. But if you change this number by 1%, that can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Next up is savings, 5% to 10%. This could include savings for a down payment, certainly an emergency fund, those kinds of things. And finally, my favorite category of all, guilt-free spending. And this is 20% to 35%. That's a lot of money. Guilt-free spending, going out, eating out, buying a round of drinks for your friends, vacation, special activities for children. Now, as long as your numbers fit,

Amazing. So some people I talk to, they go, "Hey, we want a big house." Cool, then your fixed costs are probably gonna be higher. And maybe you're not gonna spend as much on vacation. Other people go, "We wanna live in a small apartment, and we wanna travel a lot or eat out five times a week." Up to you. Your rich life is yours. I personally love nice clothes. So my spending on that is high.

but I spend less on other areas of life. Can I just go back for a second to the second item on your list when you talked about investing and your 5% to 10% investment as it compared to your take-home? People often have money...

zapped out of their paychecks and funneled right into a 401k. They don't take that home, but that counts, right? It does count. And actually, it's a great question because yes, it counts, even though technically your 401k is pre-tax money. I love this question because when we are doing these four numbers, which are, I developed it into a template. It's called the Conscious Spending Plan. You can all find it online and you can plug in your own numbers.

If you look at this thing, it looks really simple. And there's a couple things that are, you're like, hey, what about this? What about that? I intentionally designed this to be simple. And often when I talk to individuals or couples, they start filling it out and they send it back to me. And it's like, they have notes and notes and it's become five pages. I go, guys, the point of this is not precision. It's actually simplicity. Why? Because most of us, we don't even know our income

And we overcomplicate things so that it's overwhelming. But really, if you look at these four numbers, you have a very good sense of how you stack up. So I love your question because the correct answer with this one is just combine them. Is it technically correct? No. Does it matter? No. Combine it all, make it simple, and move on with your life.

As we move on and we have our numbers, then we have to keep it going. And this is, I imagine, where those check-ins come in. Can I just be completely honest about the fact that I hate it when people call this a money date? You do. Tell me why. I love it. Tell me. Because this is...

this is not a date. I mean, maybe it becomes a conversation that you look forward to, but let's just get really honest. We are doing something for our relationship here.

To me, this, I don't know. It doesn't feel like a date. I think we're trying to squeeze a round peg into a square hole or vice versa. Keep them separate, but do it anyway. I love it. Gene Chatzky is laying down the law here today. I love it. It's a little disingenuous, right? Like, hey, everybody, like Valentine's Day, forget about going out. Why don't we sit and talk about our money? I'm like, get a life. Yeah.

This is funny in the personal finance world. There's a lot of folks who are like, when should you talk about your finances? And then some people go,

Oh, first date. Of course. I'm like, have you guys ever been on a first date? Like, let's get real. So no, we don't have to call it a money date. I love it. What we want to do now, let's retrace our steps. First, we've had our initial positive money conversation. Then we've talked about what's our rich life. That's taken a while. That's taken weeks. We really get into it, engage, feel good. Then we have pulled our numbers.

And this is a very quick step. Again, you don't have to be super accurate about these. You can always draw a color in the lines later, but just ballpark. How much do we make? Roughly, what are we spending? We're not sure. Let's add a couple extra hundred bucks because we're probably spending more than we think. Okay, we have the rough numbers here, plus or minus a few percentage points. Now, you look at it, you go,

Oh, wow. We claim that our rich life is spending time with our family, but we're spending 15% of take-home pay on delivery fees for pizza. Is that really aligned? And you start to realize what we say is our rich life is not being reflected in our numbers. Now, it doesn't make you a bad person. Everybody, including me,

My numbers are misaligned with my rich life. That's life. It's always going to require alignment, just like it requires alignment with your time. We all say that our relationships and stuff are important, but we're spending time watching TV. That's okay. We just need to constantly be going through the process of trying to realign. So probably what you will find as you go through your numbers, there's very common things I see. Number one, the biggest two areas that people overspend on.

are housing and cars. Now, housing is expensive. It's historically expensive right now. And also, most people have no idea how to calculate how much they can afford for a house.

So they literally put their finger in the air and go, oh, I like that house. I like the chimney. I go, that's not how you decide if you can afford a house. What are you talking about? You need to run some numbers. Second is their car. They walk into their neighborhood dealership, talk to their freaking car dealer, Chet. Chet says, how much you want to pay per month? That's not how you buy a car. No. You need to learn the ratios and the numbers. Those are the two areas we spend the most on. The most surprising area that people are shocked by is eating out. Oh.

Food. I was just going to say, where's... Yes, food. By far. And to me, that's great. It presents an opportunity where you go, hey, wait a second. Now that we've realized we're... Here's the magic rule I've discovered. Whatever people tell me they are eating out times per week, multiply it by three. I'm not kidding. It's shocking. I call it Ramit's constant.

They tell me they're eating out three times a week. I start going through day by day. They're eating out nine times a week, guaranteed. It's exactly what your doctor does, by the way, when they ask you how many drinks you have a week. They double it. Exactly. They automatically double it in their head. Yeah, totally. So it's actually fantastic. We go, oh, wow, like we can still eat out. It doesn't make us a bad person to want to eat out. But let's create a plan. Let's create a system. Maybe every Friday night we go out.

Perfect. And when we go out, let's create a plan. We're going to get an entree. We're going to get a couple of drinks. Cool. Let's make it work in our numbers. On a random Tuesday, no, we're not going to do that because we have our rich life plan. So now you're starting to realign your numbers with your rich life. And as you do it, you have a vision. You have a reason to be doing this as opposed to just cutting back because. Makes so much sense.

Of course, what we know is that money on the surface is simple and people, because they are human, make it complicated. So we are going to take a very quick break. But when we come back, we're going to talk about the four money personalities that show up in our relationships. And we're going to help you figure out which one you are.

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We are back with Ramit Sethi, author of Money for Couples, having a very lively and fun conversation. In the book, you define four money types. They're essentially money personalities, and they show up in relationships. Why do we need to know how we show up?

It's helpful to know what your money type is because you can start to understand certain things you do with money. For example, avoiding money. Why do you avoid money? And then you can understand how your partner reacts to money. And when you understand those things, it's very empowering because you take the blame away from yourself. You're not a bad person.

But I'm willing to bet the way you grew up with money has influenced you. Probably the phrases your family used at home influence you. And even the friends and colleagues you've had influence you. So you got to understand who you are before you can understand where you want to go forward.

So as we're looking at them, let's just sort of unpack what they are and maybe talk about a piece of advice for each one so we can recognize ourselves, but also I think so we can recognize our partners. Avoider is the first on the list. Avoider is the most common money type. Avoiders use a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid money. They will even use phrases like,

"Babe, you're so good at money. You should handle this." Or, "I'm just not good at math." Things like that. And it's actually quite rewarding for avoiders to avoid because they still have a roof over their head. They still have a phone with internet. Why do they need to change? That's an avoider. However, a technique to help an avoider change, if your partner, for example, is an avoider,

is to set a clear expectation of what you need as a partner. Here's what I need. It's not you're a bad person. Here's what I need. Give them a small piece of the personal finances to own, such as groceries. This is the number. And you're going to be in charge of making sure we hit this number. And make sure you plan for them to fail. The first time, they're going to fail. The fifth time, they're going to fail.

And I hate that you have to be responsible for this, but when you are dealing with an avoider, you can and they can change. The second is an optimizer. Optimizers love a good spreadsheet. They love to focus on, should we be contributing to our tax-deferred accounts? And what is the compound interest rate? And what if it's 65 versus 67? The problem is they can become unbearably cheap.

and unbearable to be around. They are always living for the future and not living for today. Now I know what an optimizer is like because I'm an optimizer and I am a recovering optimizer. The good part about optimizers is that they can actually help you set up a very good system. They love good systems and they can help you save and they're great. But if you are in a relationship with an optimizer,

Two things are important. One is to acknowledge, hey, I really appreciate that you help us stay on top of these numbers. They love that. And second is to encourage them to turn the page on their rich life and realize they won that part of the game. They already won. Now it's time to live. That might mean we're going to go out to dinner every couple of weeks. We're going to spend a little bit of money on a date night or whatever it may be.

But they've already won. Now let's look forward. Third, you've got your worriers. I think I have some worrier tendencies. Worriers love to worry. They worry regardless of the amount they have. In fact, very often worriers don't even know how much they have. Many of the worriers I talk to have worried for their entire lives about money. When I ask them, do you know how much you have? They don't know. When I show them and I say, look at the amount you will have, they still worry.

And I even say to them, "Do you think that if you have X dollars, you will stop worrying?" And their answer is usually, "I hope so." What I want to emphasize to worriers is it's so important to look back. Almost always they grew up with a family where there was worrying in the family. It might have been transmitted by mom, dad, family circumstances.

And oftentimes their earnings outpace their psychology, meaning they can start earning good money or their family can have good money in the future, but it never leaves their own psychology. Part of the work here to live a rich life, you need to do two things. One, you got to know your numbers. You got to know how much you have. You got to know how much you're going to make. What is the 4% rule? All these, you need to know the basic language of personal finance. It's not that complicated.

And the second thing is you have to master your money psychology. You have to start to go through a series of practices to shift from scarcity to acceptance and then abundance. That is how you change to live a rich life. Yeah, I have to say I find the numbers to be extremely comforting. And I think that is pure warrior, right? That when I look at my numbers, I just feel better.

Because they don't lie. Last on the list, you've got your dreamers. Dreamer is the toughest one. First of all, there's probably not too many dreamers listening because dreamers don't listen to personal finance podcasts. And they're certainly not reading my book. Yeah.

But many people listening probably have a dreamer as a partner. Dreamers believe that the next deal, the next gig is around the corner and that will finally give them success. Dreamers often get involved in multi-level marketing and scams and schemes and they are allergic to things like a nine to five job or calm, steady, long-term investing. In fact, they even have phrases they use like,

oh who wants to have a nine-to-five job implying that that's for losers which i totally do not believe

The real reality of what's going on with dreamers is that they are subsidized. They can only exist in this la-la land because somebody is subsidizing them. It might be a parent. It might be a partner. It might even be a partner who's handling the personal finances. And this is why you cannot have a money person in your relationship. This is one of the biggest mistakes couples make. One person is the money person.

No way. You would never be like, oh, we have one parent in this two-parent relationship. They do the parenting. No, that's absurd. Same with money. Both partners have to be involved. Sure, one might be a little bit more knowledgeable about investing, but both have to be involved. And when you both take on responsibility, the dreamer naturally will have to put some skin in the game.

Rami, I could talk about this all day. We will not do that. But I do have one last question for you as we wrap this up. I know that a lot of the listeners to my show are at a point in their lives where they're looking toward retirement. They're five, 10 years away from retirement.

I also know that there are similar disconnects among couples who are not on the same page as far as their retirement vision. How do you suggest they enter this phase of their life, planning for this phase of their life?

The conversations before retirement are very similar to couples talking about money for the first time, because truthfully, most couples who are approaching retirement haven't substantively talked about money in years. They may have talked about how they feel. They may have gotten in a fight about who spent more on whatever, but they haven't sat down and said, what's our vision?

What do we want? How do we feel? And what do the numbers tell us? That's a series of substantive discussions. So this is an amazing opportunity to say, hey, let's take stock of where we are. We're about to enter a new chapter of life. It's coming up.

And how do we feel? There's going to be some things I like. There's going to be some things I want to change. I'd love to hear from you. Let's put it all out on the table because we have life left. Let's make it a rich one. That is where that discussion begins.

Ramit Sethi, the book is Money for Couples. Thank you so much for being here. And I know you're going to come back later in the week and help us with some mailbag questions. So thank you in advance for that. Where do you want our listeners to go to find more about you and about the book?

You can find Money for Couples. The podcast is available anywhere, including YouTube and the book Money for Couples, which includes the word for word scripts to use in these conversations, including the very one that my wife and I use. You can find that at any bookstore. Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here. My pleasure.

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