#4: The Brand Wizard Shaun Neff On Building Multiple +100M Culture Driven Brands
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Just appreciate other people, appreciate other people's talents and let them fly, right? Because no company, no organization was ever built by one person doing it all, right? So I think the more you can learn how to let people shine and give them the power to be great, I think will let your business scale.

Welcome back to Divot, a community for people trying to make their mark on the world, where each week I'm interviewing incredible people in business and sports and tech to learn how they've made their mark. This episode is brought to you by Google Cloud and Notion. I'm your host, Derek Anderson. We're back this week in Los Angeles to talk to Sean Neff,

He's one of the world's leading experts in brand building and a pioneer in influencer marketing. He's launched and nurtured many iconic brands, including founding the action sports brand, NepHeadwear, driving it to over $100 million in revenue before selling it. He was also the co-owner of SunBum and was an advisor to Robinhood.

As the co-founder of Beach House Group, he's launched several successful businesses, including Florence by Mills with Millie Bobby Brown, Moon with Kendall Jenner, Pattern with Tracey Ellis Ross, Bass with Shay Mitchell, and Noise. He's also helped some of America's top retailers build their strategy. As if he doesn't have enough going on, he's also a part owner in the X Games and the Los Angeles Football Club. Tell me about this piece right here.

What is this? Where did this come from? Who created this? Yeah, it's a really cool artist. Her name is Joyce Pensado. Yeah, really cool lady. She actually passed away several years ago, but I'm an art collector. I enjoy art, appreciate art. And yeah, I came across her work and really enjoyed it. And

You know, with art, obviously, one, it's got to be visually stimulating and something that you want to maybe put and see every now and then. When I really found out about her character and her life and she was like this wild artist that lived in New York that was grinding, right? Like forever. And it's just so tough to break through just like in business or an artist or whatever you're trying to do. Yeah.

And then like, it was crazy. She started popping and like Brian, whose cause started supporting her and pushing her. And she started like blow up at her later years. Right. She must've been late, I don't know, seventies or something. And she's still just like, at least from what I saw and was heard, like partied, like a 25 year old, like she would sell a painting for a ton of dollars and then just go run down and like drop,

Spend it all. Spend it all in 24 hours at like a Chanel store. So like she's wild, but she's rad. This isn't the first piece you bought. Like how did you get into art and where do you start? And did you make any mistakes? Did you just automatically know what you wanted to get or what was cool? Yeah, I think I got into it back in the Neff days. I actually at the time my first company Neff was getting momentum and we were

popping at kind of zoomies and I ended up meeting Shepard Fairey, right? Who's one of the all-time legend street artists and vibing with Shepard kind of got into his work that kind of like really got me the first bug of like, whoa, what's art? And I really started kind of in street art and kind of, you know, really was just

buying off recommendations from friends, people that own galleries, kind of like who's popping mixed with what I liked. Yeah. And then it's evolved, right? Like I went from street to more contemporary. And nowadays, one, I've never bought anything I don't love or visually want to look at a lot.

And then, you know, you also want to have in the back of your mind, you know, the trajectory of the artist, who the artist is, what gallery represents the artist. Do they have museum shows? Like, you know, art's a whole world, man, that is wild. So like you've got to like it, but also like you still want it to be a good investment. It can't just be. Yeah, that's the hope, right? Like you want to buy, you know, something that,

yeah, they call it blue chip, right? But your goal is to end up owning blue chip art, which is something that it's like a great stock, right? It's going to continue to perform. So like, you know, but I'm not,

I'm really driven by like the, who the artist is and visually do I think it's cool? And then you obviously backstop that against like, okay, if this costs X, I want to make sure that the value is not going to go to zero in a week. You know, when you think of a brand, like how, how would you describe what the essence of a brand even is? You know, I go back to when I was younger. Right. And I think, um,

I like to think of it as a consumer, right? When I was young, grew up in Southern California, was kind of a surf, skate, snow kid. And really there was only like two surf, skate shops right near my house. What were they? It was Surfing West and Valsurf. And literally like those two shops, since I was into surfing and skating and snowboarding,

they were like the stores where i could like relate to right so like for christmas or if i ever had money i would go to those stores and there was a couple brands in there that were like

I want to buy those. I want to wear that logo on my chest when I show up at school. It's going to portray that I'm a part of this culture and a part of this tribe. So like for me, when I really think of like me as a consumer and when I was young and why would I spend my money on this specific brand?

Because there's a ton of t-shirts I can buy, a ton of different, but I was buying into this tribe and this group that I felt resonates with me. So I think in the end, the true essence of a brand, if you can build something that in the end enables a consumer to feel like they're a part of it and it's something that they...

Want to consume and they want to spend your dollar on that brand. I think that's a big winner You know late 90s I used to go to tons of these punk rock shows and there'd be 20 people 30 people at a Good riddance show in the basement, you know what they do eight o'clock and nine o'clock and you know And it was like you'd wear these we wear these clothes and almost nobody knows what it is and that's you kind of like but the one person that does is

Like it was everything. It's like, whoa, you went to a good show or just for a name. Like, where did you see it? And yeah, it was like those. It was like, I don't want to be a part of any tribe. Like I'm I'm against, you know, I'm like sort of against sort of this anti-culture almost. But unless you're in that tribe, in which case, like.

we have something really tight to bond with. Exactly. And you see that, right? Like you see that in big brands. You're a Nike guy. You're an Adidas guy. You're the Tesla dude, right? Like even at the biggest level of brands, right? There's people that are upper fanatics, right? So it's like,

Yeah, I think engaging a consumer, right, and making them feel a part of, right, your tribe is massive. I think I've heard you talk about like brands sort of being almost like a person. Yeah. How do you think about that? The inheritance of a brand is and the purpose of a brand is to tell stories, right? And to communicate your message, your product, who you are and why someone might need it, right? So for me,

really building a company, building a brand is storytelling. That's kind of always where I'm rooted. Anything that I start or anything that I'm a part of, I really think of it like to your point as kind of what is this brand's personality? What is the vibe? How is it different? Like I like to look at

you know, you look at retail, right? I walk a lot of retail and I like looking at all the different shelves and you see the products on the shelf. So everyone there already has kind of a spot in the world, right? Like everyone already has their zone, their story, their persona, their vibe. So for me... Can you get there without a story? I mean, does everyone have a story or some just like found an opportunity and like thrown something in there? Yeah, I'm sure. Look, like I think...

Every brand has a story, even if their story is we're random and we just threw it on the shelf and it worked. That's still a story. I think brands that are impactful really know who they are, their point of difference. How are we different from the competition?

What lane are we in and what's the story we're telling? And to me, like the greatest brands are very good at honing in, right? Like it always starts with product, right? Like if you do not have phenomenal product, you have no chance of building anything. You're Jason.

You can create hype, someone buys it, never buy it again, right? So like the given to me is product. You have to have great and phenomenal product in any industry to give yourself a chance to win. But for me, what I love is that brand, like once you have the product, right? What's that loud story that you're yelling to everyone that gets them to run to the store? Are you thinking about like, hey, I want to like,

lean into culture here? I want to lean in or is it just like, I just want to figure out the story first and then if it's cool, the people decide if it's cool or not. I think for me, it starts with what category? Yeah. Is the category cool?

Is it on the decline? What's the size of the prize? So in the very beginning, I literally search categories. Is this a category that I feel like there is an opportunity? What do you mean feel? Like you have energy for it? Like actually you feel it? Or can you look at stuff and you're like, I'm not interested in this at all, but I'll still make something cool around this? A lot of it is like I would never...

it's like similar to buying art, right? Like I would never start a company

if it's not something that I'm passionate about or a category that I think is fun or can be disrupted or I want to spend time on. And I've been pitched a lot of really cool opportunities and like cannabis, I've been hit up 50 times to start brands or alcohol and I just have no interest in those categories. So I just don't play there. So I think categorically is what drives me.

And then from there, right, every brand is so different. I think in the very beginning, it's always, I just literally try to picture going, walking into a retailer's building and sitting with the buyer. And the buyer is literally going, she knows her set. She or he knows the set. What brands, who's working, who's not.

what they're missing, what's on the trend, what's on the decline. So like you have to be so spot on with your product and your story and then how you can make it fly off the shelf, right? That's the third component. But you've got to convince this buyer that you have something different. They don't already have what you're offering on the shelf, right? Because shelf space is so important, right? Yeah.

A Target and Walmart, an Ulta, Sephora, a little piece of real estate generates a lot of revenue. So that's how I always picture it is, okay, if I'm going to go sit in front of a buyer,

I got to tell, I got to show them great product. Yeah. I got to show them what, how am I different? Is it with a massive talent that can drive to a hundred million people that creates people to come in and shop their store? And not only it's a lift for her category, but it's a, they might get a new shopper, right? Like, are you, what, what are you going to do? Create excitement for the shelf? And then how is your story different? Right? Because.

She's already selling X, Y, and Z. So you can convince the buyer that, oh, yeah, I don't have that consumer or I need to be stronger in Gen Z. Or you know what? In this category, you know, for an example, like we just started this new fragrance brand. Yeah. Let's talk about noise. Right. Noise was once again, fragrances on the rise.

You know, young Gen Z, millennial, even kids, males are starting to really get into fragrance, which has never happened. Companies are booming right across the whole business. So, you know, we've got a company called Beach House where we incubate a bunch of brands. Right. So and generally our focus is beauty. Right. So hence, I was already kind of on the Beach House hat on going, what are we going to do next in the beauty category? Yeah.

Okay, so we talked to the retailers, we reach out, you know, where do we think the puck's going, right? Where do we think the opportunity is? And fragrance was kind of gleaming as a leader of like, hey, fragrance is going to continue to boom, right? Yeah. Let's chase that. Yeah. So once you look at the market... You're just looking at... So you're talking to basically the...

the people selling into the customers, you're talking to the retailers. The buyers. You're talking to the buyers. The stores. So you're getting feedback from them, you're looking at other data or trends or research reports and things, and then seeing, and then your own maybe anecdotal things that you're hearing, and you just say, wow, this looks great. Yeah, it seems like fragrance, and we explored...

We explored doing another sun care thing. We explored doing color brand. We explored doing a handful of different brands. So we kind of said, yeah, okay, we feel that there's going to be a lot of momentum in fragrance. Let's play in fragrance. So that's where it started.

And then it was like, okay, there's a lot of fragrance brands. Does the world need a new one? Right. How are we going to be different? What's our story? How, right. So you got to come in going, well, Ulta has these brands. Sephora has these brands. Where are we going to fit in? How are we going to create something different?

So obviously that's what I love doing as a brand builder is I started to vibe in the market, go to stores, look online, see what- Try all their products. Try, yeah, try products. And it was wild, right? Because if you think of the fragrance industry and just picture yourself, we've all been there, right? Like even walking through the airport and you see all these fragrance stores and generally majority, if not 99% of every ad

is ridiculously...

fantasy like fake, right? It's literally riding on a white horse, beautiful hair, perfect magic scenery. Or like the dude has like an 18 pack doing like this perfect hair flip, right? Like you're literally like, this is fake. Yeah. Like, no, like, like if you really think of majority of these ads. How much I spray on myself. Yeah. It's like all of these companies are rooted in fantasy and they go spray and it's going to take you to this magical land.

And it was so funny as I started vibing and looking at all these different ad campaigns. And I'm like, there's nothing that is rooted in real and raw storytelling. And the idea came, it was so funny, I saw this image. And it was of this girl just sobbing. She was just super sad, crying, crying.

And I was like, wow. This was an ad or this was like a stock image? This was a stock image ran in. I think someone from our creative team had pulled a bunch of images and this image just hit me, right? And I was like, and I don't even think it was made for like this fragrance brand. It was just on some random imagery I saw. And I literally was like, wow, what happened if we launch with a fragrance with some imagery like that? And we called it day. Yeah.

It was literally the antithesis of everything that was in the market. Because everything's like, this is perfect. Spray and like you're magical. Everything's great. All your worries go away. But I'm kind of like, no, like the reality of life is not riding a magical, perfect white horse. It's a tough day. So we literally launched Noise rooted in real and raw storytelling. Right. So then you circle back to like, okay, what's the story we're telling?

We're telling a real story. So everyone else is saying, hey, spray this and look perfect and magical. We're saying, spray this. We worked with this guy, Jerome, who's one of the biggest perfumers in the world. He did all of Byredo, right? So from a product standpoint, we nailed it. Yeah. Great scents, sophisticated scents, right? Like these are beautiful, amazing, like high-grade scents. Yeah. But they're at a great price. And we flipped everything.

The narrative. Flip the narrative. And it's just like, hey, we're not trying to convince you that you're going to spray this and your world, you're going to end up on a white horse. It's more of like, we're relating to you. Like we all know that life's not perfect, but these scents are amazing. How many like influencer pitches a year do you think about, do you look at to get down to like, and how many do you actually go after?

Geez, I mean, across all the brands, like we probably, who knows, even just at Beach House, right, where we've got, that's where we incubated Millie Bobby Brown's brand. We have Pattern with Tracee Ellis Ross. We have Moon with Kendall Jenner. We've got Bass, the big travel business that did...

I'm going to do 300 million this year in revenue, right? That's with Shane Mitchell. So we've got all those, right? And then noise, what's interesting about noise is no talent. Yeah. Right? Because that fits our story. So like going back to like,

you identify the market. And for Noise, it was like, you know what? It's real and raw storytelling. So we're not going to have one talent that represents us because that wouldn't represent the scope of life. So it's easy for us. We go out to all, like we went huge on TikTok, like massive. We worked with some of the biggest TikTokers in the world. And it was a rad campaign because it wasn't like, oh, we're Noise.

We want you to say this, act like this, do this. We're like, no, you're rad. Let us send you some product. Do you like it? If you like it, hit us back. So they hit us back and we're like, you do you. Here's the scent. Here's the name. Here's our brand. But don't create content that you feel is authentic because who are we to tell you

what you know your audience better than we do. So we kind of, that was the genius of kind of the Noise launch was like, we didn't try to work with a bunch of talent and tell the talent to be Noise. We literally were like, be yourself and tell them why you like this product. But very different from like a Tracee Ellis Rosson pattern, right? Cause that brand, she had already been on her journey,

She had been trying to do hair product. I mean, she tells, you talk about authenticity of starting a business. She was back when she was a young kid, she would call a number every morning and get the humidity. And she'd literally like figure out how to do her hair that day. Yeah. It's like Tracy,

and pattern in our relationship there is, right? We're kind of like back end, but she's just like, she already had the idea. She's incredible. And we partnered with her to run the back end of the business and deliver a great product and launch it at retail. So like across all our brands, man, we've worked with

Who knows? We could hundreds and thousands every... Of pitches, which then boils down to maybe a couple of launches or a couple of products. Yeah, like if we're going to really partner with someone like a Kendall or a Tracy or a Millie Bobby Brown, I mean, yeah, I'll meet with a ton of big talent every year, right? And you can kind of shake down really quick. Why do you want to start a business? Is this just a money grab? Are you going to work hard?

Is this something that, you know, you know what it took to blow up? What does it look like a celebrity working hard? Like, what does that mean? It's just, you can tell really quick. Yeah. If they're into it and they're going to put it on their back and run up the hill with you. Yeah. Right. Cause business is not easy. Yeah. Like,

Even if you get the biggest celebrity in the world and we can all name huge companies with massive talent that have just flopped and flopped, right? So like there's a lot that goes into running a successful brand and business. So like if your partner, because right, when you look at someone on that level as a- Right, it's not a sponsorship or something. No, it's not an endorsement. It's not let me pay you some money and like do a couple Instagram posts, right? Like we do that.

Amongst all of our brands, we work with thousands of influencers probably a week. Yes, Beach House. That are macro, micro, nano, right? Like just TikTok, YouTube, we're hitting everywhere, right? But that's more of just storytelling for the brand. But yeah, finding a true partner, you got to make sure that...

They're willing to work hard. They're really into the product. There's an authentic story that they're telling and it's believable. And it's someone that's going to like, hey, whatever's in the contract, you know, they're going to do 10 times more than what's written. Yeah. And I think sometimes if you're starting a company or starting a product, you think, oh, if I could just get this person to talk about it, like just get this person excited, like my whole world's going to change.

but if you're a company you might and you might go try to pitch that person you might give them this huge part of your company and then they treat it like an endorsement or they don't really care about it so it's like trying to get those people who are super busy who have other business models where they make most of their money already to then like get excited enough to like make this one of your things as like a core pillar of your own career and like go work hard at it I mean it's really unique and so you're

I mean, it sounds like actually really hard to do to get them. And do you have people that start out and aren't successful with it and you have to pull back? No, we've been lucky. I mean, our thing is being so selective. I mean, I've probably over the last five years met with 300 plus talent that are some of the biggest stars in the world, right? People that are top 10, five on Instagram, right? And you're just like...

A lot of those times you can sense really quick that, hey, that's not someone that I want to be in business with. And I don't think, you know, and don't ask me who they are because I don't know. Well, who, I mean, 300? Like, who's the most interesting? Who, I mean, you've named some people you actually work with, but I don't know. Is there other interesting people you haven't, you just talked with or met? I look at talent that has blown up or amassed a huge following. I'm like,

They've already achieved something that is so difficult. Yeah. Like a lot of times, I mean, look at the big celebrities and big talent. People have these huge followings. That is not easy. Yeah. It's already like they almost won, right? Like once in a very big way, whether they're a big singer, a big actress, movie star, talent. So they've already known what it takes to be nothing and then get to the top. Yeah. So like if you can hone in, that's...

My biggest thing is I like working with someone that has done that. And as long as they still have the fire to build again and realize that like, hey, now that you're here, remember what it took to get there. If we can partner up and create a product that we're both excited about and I know what I do on the business side, you tell the story.

Like that's kind of the magic, right? So, I mean, I've met so many cool people like, you know, throughout my life. What's funny is probably the craziest, the craziest, at least individual that I've ever like hung out with or met, which is so funny because it's so wild. I've never really talked about it or shared about it. But like in a random, random through like a family connection, this is like pre-me even starting my first company, Neff.

um I got to hang out with Michael Jackson wow a handful of times went to the ranch we even one night was so crazy we went um trick-or-treating so this story was crazy so here we are we went to like the goal was to go to Universal Studios yeah and you know her his kids Prince and Paris were young like

I think I was holding one of them, right? And they were both like just, I was holding one and then someone else had someone. But we jumped in this sprinter van. I'll never forget. Michael was wearing this huge dragon mask. It was like this. To go to Universal Studios? No, so we went trick-or-treating right before. Because like, hey, let's go trick-or-treating with the guys. Yeah.

And I remember this, I don't know why I'm talking about this, but we went out trick or treating and here we get out of the thing, like everyone's it's Halloween, we're just knocking on doors. And it was so crazy. Michael had this huge like dragon mask. I mean, the thing was like massively big. Totally covering him. Totally covered up. Right. And then randomly, we only trick or treated for like 20 minutes or something, but like on one of the last doors,

Like it was like trick or treat. Then she went, this lady went back to go get her thing. And then he took off his dragon mask and he just stood there. And she like literally like turned ghost like and was like, and she was so tripped out because she's like, wait, it's Halloween. So she's like, but Michael, you're Michael Jackson. She's like Michael. And she was like trying to touch his arm.

And like, she yelled at her husband, like come meet. And it was this crazy moment. And literally it was like one of the most wildest moments. Right. So like, that's like a random, like even pre me on the next days, like, you know, that probably that night trick or treating with Michael Jackson was probably one of them. It sounds like a life. A Charlie life moment. Just interesting. Like what was he like? Just soft-spoken polite. And just kind of like just to himself and.

Yeah, so who knows? Like, he, you know, obviously... You trick-or-treated with Michael Jackson. You're like, I got to work. Exactly. I got to work with these people. Exactly. No, but it was just random. It was like through a family connection that they became close with Michael. And we went trick-or-treating and went to his house a couple times. I remember we went on, he was doing this in his backyard and his, you know, he had the big, I don't know, it was a boat or whatever. It went back and forth. Yeah.

And he's like,

He's like, all right, let's go. And like, he just sprinted. He had like a little movie area with like all of his candy. So it was like, everyone grab some candy and then we're going to go on the thing and we're going to hit each other. Right. So like, it was so random. So here, that was another random moment. I was like, we're sitting on this boat and he's there and we're going up and down. And I remember just like Chuck and Milk Duds, Michael Jackson. And we kept throwing like Junior Mints and M&M Peanuts at each other. But who knows? Random spiral. But yeah, like, look,

You know, working with talent, I mean, I've built a lot of brands with talent. I enjoy it. I love it, right? They're superstars. They've already proven and beat the business model of trying to be that famous. So, like, they're special, right? They're good at their craft. And then if you can...

somehow intertwine that with great product and tell an authentic story. Because look, I mean, in a lot of these, you can sniff through it and feel like it's

you know, a bad manager that had a bad idea that like hooked some guy up and then they try to launch a product and do it right. Right. That's the, the bummer is a lot of these talent brands, the product's not great. There's not a good operating team. They're not too involved. They don't, they don't really want to do the work. Yeah. It's just, there's, there's a million things that can go wrong, but I think in the end, right. When, when you can nail it and have a good operating team around it, it,

it yields success. - Just with retail, there's this sort of feeling that people don't go to stores anymore. There's so much shopping happening online, and yet you do go direct to consumer, but you also have these really deep retail partnerships and you sell a lot of product through retail. What's your perspective on where retail is today versus where it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago when you started your headwear company?

Yeah. Neff, like, how has it changed? And is it still, I mean, if I'm thinking about starting a business, getting my product into those spaces, like, can I still make money there? Is it still a viable business? Yeah, look, I'm...

Such a fan of retail like DTC. Great. You can own your brand. You can tell your story. You can own the marketing. Right. It's a great touch point to the consumer. And sure, in certain businesses like, you know, our company base. Right. Which is we'll do about 300 million this year in revenue. Right.

probably 85, 90% of that's on our website, right? Because there's not a ton of retailers that sell luggage and suitcases, right? And travel accessories. So we work with Nordstrom and

and revolve on the online side. But like, right, that business is a bit of a unicorn, right? Because for me, I haven't been a part of a lot of businesses that are like 90% retail, right? I feel like that generally is a pretty tough model and pretty unique. So outside of base, almost everything I've ever done is rooted in retail. Like, you know, all the beauty brands working on all these things. It's like, I love a retail partner.

I love when I start a brand, I love to sit with the buying team, sit with the retailer, you know, kind of be in the kitchen with them a little bit, right? Like you want to come with, here's the category, here's the idea, here's the brand. You got to come in there with, here's who we are, but hey, we might, let's sharpen the pencil together. Like,

What should the price point be? Do you like it here? Should it go a little bit higher, a little bit lower? Like, hey, we were thinking about this flavor, but like, you know, maybe dip into that selling report and, you know, should we do this, that or this, right? So like, I'm a huge fan of retail. It creates so much legitimacy out of the gate, right? Like, because it's not easy to get into these legitimate retailers, right? And

And they're special. They kind of hold the keys to kingdom. How long does it take from the time you pitch them to the time it actually ends up in a store? Yeah, I mean, look, generally, if you're starting something from scratch, right? And look, I've been lucky enough now to build...

sell several companies and kind of have some rapport with the retailers, right? So I've got trust, right? But even going in there and having the relationships, by the time you have that first meeting and you're looking to launch, I mean, you're usually in like a three to six month window, like three if they're just like, if you're baked and ready to go and they're slotting you in. But usually, you know, I'd say six,

six to nine months after you nail that first retail meeting you start working with them and you know kind of hone it in um but you know we've been a part of brands where we've you know incubated pretty early with retailers that like our first conversation and then you know 12 13 months year year later is when we're launching so there's there's not you can kind of go in at different stages but um

I love retail, man. Like it's, they've got people coming in and out of the doors every day. Yeah. And you're sitting next to incredible brands that already exist that have done a phenomenal job. So it's like as a startup and as a new brand, when you're sitting like Noise, we launched at Ulta, right? We launched it in the full chain. It was their biggest buy ever for a new brand. So we were

First time they ever, we had a huge low end cap and then we had a location not far from like massive Ariana's brand and Billie Eilish's brand. And I think Chanel's in there, right? So like we were already in the game, but having two points, but like that for us just gave us so much credibility and a place to send people, right? Because fragrance.

It's tough, right? You want to smell it. You want to test it. So like for us, it was like, hey, we found a retail partner that wants to support us. We're going to give us two locations in every store and we're going to go hard on TikTok and create a lot of noise, no pun intended, for people to go test it. You've sold a number of companies. You started your own with Neff. You've built these other brands. Yeah.

how do you think about like building something for the longterm versus thinking about an exit? Cause I feel like one thing that's unique about you is like you, you sort of, you have this ability to sort of straddle both. And in Silicon Valley, you know, there's all, there's sort of that. It's like, I'm not going to like the investors won't fund anything if they think you ever want to sell. Like you have to really pitch a story of like, Hey, we're going to take this public. This is going to be $10 billion company. Like, because that's really where their huge gains happen. But how have you like,

been able to navigate that line of like, hey, we want to build something great. We want to build it for the long term. But ultimately, we're going to sell this and at some point get out of this even. I mean, you sell companies when they look great, right? So you could, oh, I get starry-eyed and keep going, keep going. But how do you navigate that? Yeah, look, I think my mindset's like I wouldn't start

anything unless I thought it was sellable. Yeah. Right. So the goal, at least for me, right. And, and look, the worst thing that could ever happen with that mentality is you've got a booming business that's growing hands over fist every year. That's, you know, profitable and you just keep it. I mean, that's kind of what's happened with base. It's like the thing just kept

climbing. It's just like year one, who knows? Like 17 million, then you do 50, then you do 100, then you do 180, then you do 250. At some point, like you almost can't sell it. Yeah. It's just like, you know, it's been on such a tear. It's profitable that we're just, we're going. But like, you know, even in that scenario, like I think the way I think about it is you're always for sale for me. What does that, what do you mean? Hey, day one,

If there's an amazing idea and you just freaking launch it, you haven't even done $1 in retail. Someone calls you and goes, hey, we think we love this brand that you just put together. Like, would you sell it today before you've sold one unit? I'd have the conversation of what they're going to have to pay. Generally not. Yeah. Right. But we've definitely been hit pretty early in businesses of people that have interest. Yeah. Right. Like, so I think the mentality is,

You want to build a business and a brand that can live forever. Yeah. So you're not making product decisions, marketing decisions, operational decisions. You're not doing anything for the short term or for an exit, right? Because in the end, that'll kill you. Yeah. So like the way I think about it is build a brand that can live forever, that can turn into this heritage turnkey brand that can go for 20 years. That's what you're always building. Yeah.

And if you're building with that mindset, you're going to make the right decisions. You're going to think about longevity. You're going to think about distribution. So many times, whether it's Neff, Sunbum, all of these different companies,

It's a little rocket ship and your massive retailers are coming to want to buy it and sell your business. And you're saying no. Yeah. Right. But, you know, it's going to double or triple the size of your company. But you're saying no, because, you know, if you go to that retailer, your cachet, the value of what you're building is going to go down the drain. Right. So like for me, it's like think long term.

build a brand and always be like distribution so important like where you sit who you sit next to right that's just the ethos of a business so like build thinking that it can go forever but I think the mindset for me is I always want to build something that potentially connects it right because for me I

I'm not, I mean, I guess that's been more my journey, right? I've been a part of starting and building a bunch of these things. And I feel like every day I start like four new businesses in my head, right? Like new ideas, new products. So like, I'm just wired that way. So I'm not going to get warm and fuzzy trying to cling on to anything. I want to put out the best brand.

that the team can put out and then at any point if there's someone that thinks they can acquire it and if the money's right then you sell it and let them

Because even Beach House, we're an incubator, right? We're starting these things. So we don't want to run them for 10 or 20 years. We want to do what the big companies are doing. You're really good at the early stage and get that initial zero to one and beyond, much further than one. But then if somebody wants to take it and take it global or whatever, it's that's where you're great at, then you go do that. P&G, Unilever, Estee Lauder, L'Oreal, they're not great in incubating. Right.

They do it a ton and they fail a ton. Right? So that's kind of our secret sauce. So for us, we're the perfect partnership with all of them, right? Like let us incubate rad ideas, get on the floor and like launch these brands and then let's be your proof of concept, right? And like the ones that are working, that are showing off good metrics that can show, that can scale,

we're fine to pass it off to the big motherships that can then just globally roll these things out and scale them. How do you still be open and listening to those voices in your head and like trying to get the right things out versus just like being so spread thin and doing everything? Yeah, look, I think... How do you decide what it's worth? Yeah, I think at this stage, at least personally for me, is like...

Because look, I'm sitting here talking like, oh, launching all these things. There's teams around me, right? Like, I just, I know my superpower, right? What's that? I generally come up with the brand, the name, the look and feel, the packaging, the idea, everything.

Oh, is there a talent involved? Pick the right talent, lock in the talent, you know, and kind of help like that initial product roadmap. Here's where we're starting. Here's how we're different. So I'm just I love that beginning phase, like creating these new products and these new ideas and just honing in the brand. So it's tight.

But then there's each one of these brands has an amazing operator, amazing marketing person, an amazing product developer, an amazing, you know, right? There's a whole machine. So like, I think for me personally, I've found...

Like I'm not going to operate a company. I'm not right. There's just so many things that I'm not going to be involved in. Yeah. So like for me, I hold my superpower, which is like ideating these things, kind of putting them all together, launching them, getting them at retail and let's go. And then bringing in the team to go operate and crush these things. So yeah.

I think the key for me has been like stay in your lane. So in your lane, that allows me to do a handful of companies. Yeah. I'm just kind of, right, like doing my little superpower. I don't have to like wake up the next day with like a, you know, deliverable at this time. Oh, I got to go do this. Well, and you did. You did do that. You started your own business.

It started as headwear with Neff beanies, right? And then went into all these other things and you built and grew that company. And then it seems like you sort of, then you go into sort of advising companies and helping brands. You start helping Robinhood. You like you joined Sunbum as an investor, like really early, right? What point did you join that? So Sunbum was crazy because the true story is,

I had a friend who I went to college with and he had a neighbor that was walking by and he was out and his neighbor saw a Neff sticker on my buddy's truck. And somehow they were like talking about the Neff sticker and my buddy's like,

that's my friend from college, Sean Neff. No way you know that guy. He said, I've got a sunscreen business and I would love to talk to that guy. Like we're trying to figure it out. So random. So my buddy calls me and he's like, hey, my neighbor wants to talk to you. He has a sunscreen business. And I was just like, oh my gosh. I'm like,

this is not a good idea right I was like okay Bobby you're don't ever call me about you're a good buddy and I'll do you a favor but I had zero expectations right because like my buddy's neighbor right yeah sunscreen company and they wanted to reach out because I had done nef and I was in all the surfskate snow stores and right so kind of knew the playbook

So it was so funny, like they called and it was, it was so crazy. Like I was just talking to the guy on the phone and then he's like, yeah, it's called sun bum. And so my head initially went to like sun bum, like I went to like sunny butt cheeks or some weird copper tune, copper tone visual. And I was like, oh, this is really bad. Right. So I kind of, and then it was crazy because I was kind of like, ah, I'm not really that interested. Right.

And it was so funny. I was with my wife like two days later and I was like, oh man, Bobby, this kid called me right over. And he's like, his neighbor had some sunscreen thing called sun bum, whatever. I didn't talk to Bobby. So I was more talking like, Hey, I talked to Bobby. And she's like, how'd you, why'd you talk to Bobby? And literally she's like, wait, like,

Sun balm? So she went. And at the time, sun balm was small, right? This wasn't sun balm of what we think today. Maybe a couple million in revenue. Not a big business. But a great product. Yeah. And they had the wood grain and the yellow monkeys. My wife went and grabbed one. She's like, remember when we were in Florida? I bought this at a surf shop.

So there's this weird connection. And I was like, whoa, like that made me like think. And I was like, whoa, that actually looks cool. And where my brain went, I was like, whoa, there's not a company right now in sunscreen that has what a kid take the logo had the little or sunny. Sunny was what the little apes called.

There was not a logo that could go on like a surfboard or a truck. And I was like, wow, this brand actually looks cool. The packaging's phenomenal. So long story short, it was nuts. Like my buddy's neighbor, they have a conversation. Hey, can you help my sunscreen business? I ended up going, you know, they had been going around trying to raise capital. No one would fund it. And literally at, you know, and I waited a little while, was trying to see, I don't know.

No one was funding it. They literally had been talking to people for months and no one was funding it. And it was literally down to the wire, like literally

I think there was maybe a couple weeks left of runway of cash in the Sunbum business. And I ended up funding it. And at that time wrote the biggest check I'd ever wrote in my life. And I became the second largest shareholder in the business and funded Sunbum. And literally, I think if I didn't write that check, I don't think Sunbum would have even survived. Like I think it was just gone, going out of business.

So lucky to write that check at the time a guy came in at the same time as I did as our operator. He was a great guy from Australia, Adam, smart guy. And he kind of took over as CEO and it was rad. He talked about this. It was, you know, timing, everything's wild in life, right? So at the time when I made the SunBum investment,

I was actually hired by Target and I was helping them do their kids apparel business. It used to be Sean White, Mossimo and Cherokee, and they wanted to ditch those brands and create new private label brands. So I helped them in that process. So I ended up through another mutual friend locking in a broker in Minneapolis and I set up the meeting and literally like while I was in town working with Target, advising them,

We walked downstairs to a lower level, had a little Sunbum, you know, sunscreen meeting and Target brought it in off that meeting. And then when we sold Sunbum to SC Johnson, Target was the majority share of our revenue. So that one was a wild story. I was like, I was like in Southeast Asia recently and like in the most random small place and they're like, I'm driving this rickety, you know,

grab or whatever the Uber is over there. And like there, I'm just like right on the window is the monkey. Oh, that's amazing. And it's just like, it's just unbelievable to think like you see these things and we're talking about these ideas, like, you know, you can't sleep at night and, and you know, you got to get these things out of your, your head. And so you can sleep basically. And then, you know, these entrepreneurs put that together, ups and downs, ups and downs, some success, some fans, and,

Right place, right time. Keeps it going. You know, that leads to a relationship with Target, which leads to this thing going all across the world. It's nuts, man. And like, look, nothing's easy. And like even Sunbomb, there was a moment like six months after I wrote that check that I thought the thing was going under. Right. Like, I mean, I literally was like not sleeping at night going.

I can't believe I wrote that check. Like, this is sketchy, right? Like, I don't know if we're going to survive. So like, it doesn't, nothing comes without risk, nothing. And I think for me, the raddest thing for me about being an entrepreneur is seeing my products in the wild. Like when I was young, neff, there was a good five or six years, I couldn't leave my house

and drive five miles without seeing my last name on a t-shirt or a hat i couldn't go to an airport zero chance for five years if i went to any airport in the country that i wouldn't see at least my name every 10 minutes right then you go into like sun bum and then it's like wow like i remember when my buddy called and i wrote that check and like literally saved that business

And now any pool I go to, anytime I go to the beach, any resort I go to, any store, you see sun balm. Now even with base lately, like every time I'm at the airport, not even like people walking with it, but now on every flight, probably within, you know, everyone takes their luggage and puts it up there, probably within every 10 bin of someone putting luggage, I see base. So it's like,

For me, I think that's been the magical outcome of this whole journey is to start with these ideas or be a part of these tiny little things that no one knows about. And then you just leave your house in this big world and just see these little things that you've been a part of, which is like, that's why I keep, it's just so fun. Yeah. It's like the most satisfying thing ever. You're like...

Wow. And no one knows like the blood, sweat, tears, ups and downs, chaotic journey for that thing to just even be possible, be possible. But it's so fun to see people back to what's the point of a brand. The point of a brand is someone buys your product, loves it. Tell me about how you got into the opportunity to become an owner.

for LAFC as well as the X Games. I mean, let's start with LAFC. Where does it even start? How did that conversation even begin? Who to begin with? Is that something you always wanted to do? Is that something you just, where did it come from? Right when LAFC started, I had met

I had met a buddy of mine. I'd met his friend and this family was looking to invest in this new team called LAFC. So it was crazy because like,

Right when it started, I was like, wait, you could actually be a part of owning a new soccer team? It just sounded too magical. It just sounded like, wait, there's no way, right? So I tried to work in with this family and like, hey, this is me. I want to invest and all this thing. And it was like, there was a little momentum. And I'll never forget, I went to the groundbreaking ceremony, right? So I was there. I got like a little collared LAFC shirt.

And like, I was so excited. I saw like Will Ferrell there, Magic Johnson, all this. All the owners. Yeah, all the other owners. And that was day one. Yeah. And then like three days after that thing, the family passed and like, you know, nothing came of it. Right. Which it's not like I thought I was going to get involved anyways. I was just like, oh man, I'm shooting the longest helmet I've ever seen. Taking my shot.

So it was interesting that right when LAFC started, I kind of got really excited. I saw the logo, I saw the colors and I was like, this seems so cool. And then like fast forward, right? How many years, five years or four years? I had a friend of mine that said, hey, I just talked to this guy named Rich who runs kind of the brand for LAFC and

And, you know, he's been looking for like how he kind of said, I want to build the new Lakers bench. Right. And like enhance means bring talent, get like talent coming to game, celebrities kind of build culture, build the brand.

And I, you know, he went out to multiple people and luckily I think my name came up. Right. So I went and met this guy in the backyard and it was like, initially it was like, Hey, um, you want, you know, what do you do? Whatever. And I'm like, cool. This is what I do. Love brands like Mark and they already built a phenomenal brand.

And I was like, yeah, I can bring talent, bring friends and whatever. But like, like, I'm not like, I mean, like, I would love to be a part of the team. Yeah. Is there any? I don't need I don't need tickets to the game. Yeah. It's kind of like, is there like I just was like, no, once again, throwing a Hail Mary, like, is there any chance I can like somehow join the ownership group? And it was kind of like, you know, and obviously he wasn't the decision maker. There's a there's kind of three main owners there.

And, you know, so for me, it was just like I'm a little kid in a candy store, right? I just said, cool, I want to show up. So I literally showed up for two years every game. And they hooked me up. They were nice. They gave me credentials. You brought interesting people? They were taking, brought interesting people, brought, you know, Snoop Dogg, brought to the Messi game, brought Leonardo DiCaprio, brought, you know, Justin Bieber, you know,

Haley came. So like we were bringing all these crazy people. Right. And I and I think. Right. And then I started meeting the group and, you know, me and some relationships with some CMOs and potential sponsors. So it was one of those were like, you know, it's funny because like.

I literally put in work for like two years to kind of at least get noticed. It was cool. Right. By the ownership group. And then one day they luckily, you know, there was a couple of main owners and they luckily gave me the blessing. They're like, Hey, we've seen. Did you keep bringing it up or was it like. Yeah, it was kind of one of those where I think they knew in the end, that's kind of like, I would hope to become an owner one day. And. Like, man, Sean really loves the game. Yeah.

It's just an avid fan, but I did build. But what's rad about LAFC is they had already built an incredible brand. Yeah. 27,000 people, sells out every night. The energy's phenomenal. I think it's the best sport game in LA. Yeah. Saying a lot. So it was just fun and easy, but it was like, yeah, I put in a ton of work. And then luckily one day they called me and they were just like, hey, like...

We'd like to invite you to join the ownership group. So, you know, so that one was just like a journey and probably the raddest thing I'm a part of. I love it. It's been the funnest thing. Bring the family to the games, become friends with a lot of the players and the ownership group. And it's phenomenal. And soccer's just on the rise. So to be a part of something that I think over the next 10 or 15 years is going to explode here in America and become one of the biggest sports is phenomenal. And then X Games was...

Beach House, lucky enough, one of our first investors, a guy named John the Jaffe, who part owns the Suns. They own like 30% of the McLaren F1 race team. He was one of the guys that initially seeded Beach House, our incubator. And he ended up with his partner, Jeff, carving out and buying X Games from ESPN and Disney. And so...

Once again, I was lucky to be sitting there going, hey guys, this is where I came from. I built NEF and I would go to X Games every year and all the athletes on the NEF team would be competing and it would be this crazy thing on what hat are they wearing? This is like 25 years ago, right? Yeah, 15. So it was such a surreal moment to now...

Like building Neff, my first company and like going to the X Games and it was like our Super Bowl. Yeah. And like when someone won or someone got a podium with a Neff sticker on it, I was like...

beyond and then now to be a part of the ownership group and be on the other side of stuff and work on like, hey, what does our merch look like? And what's our plan for next year? And what artists, you know, helped wrangle like Wiz Khalifa and Cascade to come spin in Ventura. So that's been a surreal moment. And the sports stuff's just, you know, super fun. I just invested in a Formula E team that we're announcing here in like a week. So,

So the sports stuff to me is super fun, man. It's just... Do I make money? It's just incredible. Yeah, look, I think the general rule of thumb, and, you know, we can talk to our boy Ryan Smith. He would know more than I do, right? But, like, I think the game that I've learned is, right...

You got to hold on to the teams and over time, right? The value increases, right? So like, I think it's tough for all companies in sports, right? To be profitable, to make a lot of money, right?

I was good friends with the Miller family who used to own the Jazz that sold it to Ryan. And even then, I remember Larry telling me a handful of times of like, you know, like he had to write a big check to keep the Jazz going. Right. So like, but I think you get in and sports is phenomenal. So it's more of a, you know, put money in. Let it invest. 99 out of 100 times the franchise increases in value. Who are the human beings you most admire?

I just admire someone that's just loves and appreciates you for who you are. Yeah. Right. Forget the noise, forget what you've done, forget, you know, what you're wearing, what you're doing. So I admire, I would, yeah, I would say I admire the closest people to me in my life. Right. Cause I think they appreciate me for the slacker and who I really am. Right. And, and look, there's, there's a lot of people,

Or is anybody calling you a slacker? I don't know. I haven't heard that a lot. I don't know. I've just sat here for an hour and I'm not feeling a lot of slacker energy. Man, who knows? Yeah, maybe, you know, that's always the tough thing in life, right? Like balance. What's the hardest thing you think you've ever accomplished? I would have to say serving a church mission in Argentina. Oh, really? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it was phenomenal, but I got super sick. It was one of those where, Hey, I'm going to go do service as a 19 year old and I'm going to leave everything behind and go do service. And, you know, and in the end, in the end, it was probably the building block of my life. And it ended up rooted, rooting me in something more than myself, which I appreciate and will appreciate forever. But yeah,

Man, almost for about a year and a half, almost 10 of the meals I ate, I threw up. I was like just physically sick. So it was a grind. The accomplishment you're most proud of? Just my family, I think. Like, you know, in the end, it's just rad to have a wifey that supports you. Got three boys, um,

I think work-life balance is not easy. And me, they kind of all know I'm an animal and a psycho entrepreneur that's trying to do a million things every day. So I think the fact that I've been able to have an amazing family and great kids around me, I think that's what I'm most proud about. Best advice for doing hard things? Power through it.

I would just say grit, grind, you know, that hustle is everything. I just think nothing's easy. It's just like you look at anyone's story and it's so funny, right? Because any business or any success, it's just so easy to go, oh, you're popping or wow, that company was huge. And what people don't see is just thousands and thousands of hours, the sacrifice, the

I'm not going here. I'm not going to this vacation. No, sorry. It's Saturday and I should be hanging out dedicated with my family. But you know what? I'm on phone calls all day because there's fires I'm putting out. Right. So, yeah, it's all sacrifice. Massive sacrifice. Yeah. How do you measure your life?

I would hope to measure my life on just hopefully trying to be a good person, trying to be nice to others, be respectful. And, you know, hopefully in the end, you know, I think in any industry, it's all relationships and it's all reputation, right?

And I'm not saying I'm perfect, but, you know, I try to live a life where hopefully I don't do people bad, do people dirty and try to be an upstander guy that, you know, people would be willing to do business with. When you die, if God's there to meet you, what's the first thing you hope he'll say to you or that he asks you? I hope he just gives me a hug and says, well done.

And I think well done in a way that hopefully has nothing to do with what companies I've started, nothing to do with probably 99% of the stuff that we've discussed here. Hopefully, you know, God can look me in the eyes and say, hey, you weren't perfect like a lot of my other sons and daughters, but you stayed on a good path and you tried to be a good human.

Is there one insight that you have from your career? Is there one thing that you always point back to? You know, I was given great advice, and I'll say his name again, by Larry H. Miller. And I was in his kitchen maybe weeks before he passed away. And he was a genius. Photographic memory, one of the smartest humans, and very successful.

And he sat there in that moment, right? And it was surreal because here I am sitting at his house overlooking the valley. And I remember saying, this is like a painting of your painting of life here. I'm like, there's the jazz, there's movie theaters, there's all these dealerships. It's all these big things that he started and created and owned. And we were sitting there and he said, yeah, you know, it's all great.

And he spent his life dedicated to that, right? Part of, I think, of him getting, you know, him passing away was he worked too hard and probably didn't take care of his diabetes like he should have, right? It was inefficient to worry about that versus working. And he gave me some advice that I've taken dear to my heart and tried to apply is learn how to trust others, learn how to delegate.

And that has just stuck with me. It was so funny. My first company, Neff, I was just young, right? And just trying to do everything. Didn't trust anyone. Was overlooking everyone's shoulder. I was in everything. And it was a rat race, right? And I probably created more chaos than I needed. And then now as I'm like, let's say older and a little bit wiser, man, like all I try to do in life is this is my little...

thing I'm great at and I'm just going to surround myself with amazing, incredible people that can do all these things that this business needs. And I think that's the biggest advice is just wow. Like just appreciate other people, appreciate other people's talents and, and let them, let them fly. Right. Because no company, no organization was ever built without

by one person doing it all, right? So I think the more you can learn how to let people shine and give them the power to be great, I think will let your business scale. Dude, thank you so much. It's fire. Is it? On next week's episode.

The idea of market-based pricing, the idea to let the market set the price for your product rather than us as a brand having a fixed price, that is the through line of everything that I've created. StockX, Gnats Collectibles, Ghostrite, all products within the HypoConity are fundamentally products that are supply and demand driven, they have finite supply,