171. The Science of Resilience with Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier
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Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist. My name is Al, I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace culture.

Yes, welcome, welcome. If you are brand new, then welcome. I think you'll like it here. I hope you will. Give us your comments. We want to hear from you. If you've listened to Tuesday episodes, if you listened before, then you'll know we're back in Mostar, back in our studio. Not quite finished. You'll probably tell if you're on YouTube. It's almost done. We've got a big pile of acoustic panels out there. All we've got to do is screw them on the wall. Yeah, so that's what we're up to. So with that, we're not able to close a door because we have various wood bits.

So if you can hear a little tip tap, that's Bobby Bean, our little minpin. So sorry about that, but you're used to the chaos the last few episodes, really, aren't you? It's fine.

Yeah, it'd be fine. It'd be fine. It wouldn't be our kind of pod if we hadn't got something weird going on, would it? No, absolutely not. And as regular listeners will also know, every Tuesday we bring you our This Week in Work, which includes our hot take from a guest expert. It includes our world famous weekly workplace surgery that Al and I have only just learned how to say after almost a year. And what else do we do? Oh, we do the news roundup as well. There's not that much going on at the moment, particularly in people in

gorgeous so it's becoming a bit of a struggle if only someone could cancel like DEI or something yeah looking at you google I think I read this week anyway that's Mark Zuckerberg again the bin as well but we'll talk about that on Tuesday today is Thursday which means we bring you a very special guest

Yes, Leanne sat down with the amazing Marie Helene, who brings together two worlds that don't often collide. There's the academic rigor of psychology. She's got a PhD. She's fancy. And the practical reality of running a business because she's got an MBA. She spent her career helping organizations crack the code on workplace mental health, working across private organizations, public organizations, and governance before starting her own

business. But what makes her really interesting is her take on resilience. Now, I know what you're thinking. Not another conversation about resilience, right? But stick with me here, because Marie-Helene approaches it like a business strategy, which as a business owner myself, I actually love. She's written a book called The Resilience Plan that breaks down how to tackle this stuff in a way that actually makes sense. Let's

Leanne has been looking forward to this conversation for ages and I can really see why. Whether you're running a business or you're leading a team or just trying to keep your head above water in today's workplace, you're going to want to grab a pen for this one. So let's join the interview and learn how to build our resilience. Am I?

Hi, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. For our listeners, if any of them haven't heard of you, would you mind introducing yourself? Tell us who you are, what you do and maybe what you're famous for? I'm an executive coach, work psychologist, author and keynote speaker.

And my background is both in psychology and business. So I've done a PhD, I've done an MBA, and I've worked for all my career in workplace mental health, in private organization, public organizations, governance, and also now on my own business, where I advise professionals and leaders on ways to improve, maintain, sustain their resilience in a strategic way.

I want to dive into that, but I want to start with a definition first of all, before we get specific. What does resilience mean to you and why do you think it's so important in today's workplaces? I think it is a great place to start, Aliane, and I think I'm going to even step back one notch further. Because we hear a lot, as we should, I would argue, about mental health in general and in the workplace, right?

If we step back on definition of even mental health from the World Health Organization, our ability to cope with stresses of life, realize our abilities, learn well, work well and contribute to our community. If we look at the definition of resilience, and there are many in the academic literature, but one that most researchers and practitioners use and the one I use as well,

is our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger. So there is this element of the stressors of life, basically both acute and chronic, but and then the resilience aspect adds this component of growth, of learning, right? And so

If we're going to want to bring our best, both professionally and even personally in our personal lives, because it's all connected, right? There isn't a lane specific for work and a lane specific for personal. We will want to invest proactively in our resilience. It's going to help with everything. And why is it so important...

today in the world of work we're operating in 2025? I would say always been important. We're talking more about it and I love that. And we're also talking more about it, I think, because on one hand, it's become a word we're used to. On the other hand, we're still not fabulous at it. So we need to talk about it more.

The other thing is that we are facing even more challenges. Even looking at recent statistics from World Economic Forum, talking about businesses noticing that 44% and more of workers will see their skills disrupted by 2027.

And even if we just think about AI and all the changes it brings in general, personal and professional life, that in itself will be probably both an acute and a chronic demand that we'll have to deal with. And there are many others, right? So that's normal. That's fine. We almost want to turn these challenges into the way life is. And at the same time, recognizing that for us human,

These demands are taxing, right? They are requiring some of our resources. And now we'll dive into how our workplace is a system. It's not all in us as individuals. And that's a very, very important aspect of this overall picture.

And even in that system, we do have an impact, an opportunity to impact our resilience. The key aspect being, or one of the key ones, is that it is not a personality trait. Sometimes we'll tend to think that it is because we've been so resilient in so many ways so far, recently, that's great. And so, well, that must be who I am.

And no, it isn't. It's a state. So that means it will fluctuate. And it also means we can influence it. We have agency and we want to use that. So if resilience fluctuates, how do we know when we might be in need of building our resilience and doing something proactive to build that back up? I would say always.

Always. It's similar to if it's not exactly that, but if we said, well, you know, hydration is important. How often should we drink? Well, all day, every day. And it's not because we did it yesterday that we don't need to do it today. No, always. And if we know there's going to be a demand, say a phase where we can't drink much water, then yes, we want to front load and we want to replenish as soon as we can shortly after. It functions differently.

the same way in a number of ways. And so how will we know if it's particularly suffering? We will start to see things like maybe our concentration not being as good. For a lot of people, they will see themselves being more impatient than they usually are.

If you're always impatient, maybe that's not a sign, but even an impatient person sometimes will reach even higher levels. Sometimes it will impact your sleep, it will impact your eating habits, your consumption of alcohol, for example.

Often an easy way to think about it is you're just not being your usual self. So when we recognize that in ourselves, if we have that awareness, or maybe it's the feedback we get from others. I might have been told that before from Al perhaps, that I'm having less patience than I normally would.

If I recognize that, what can I do? What practical things can I do to start to better manage the stress and build my resilience? So during the pandemic, especially, everyone, we've all heard the things, the key things that would likely help us build our resilience.

And they are solidly research-based. We're not talking about a few studies. We're talking about body of research, meta-analysis, systematic reviews, like very established. So four key variables we would want in that equation. The problem is not so much knowing those variables. It's in implementing, which is why I'm arguing we need to be actually strategic about it.

But just so we're all on the same page, those four variables. First one is movement or exercise. Three categories, subcategories in there. One is cardio, one is strength training, and another one is meditative type activity. Yoga, meditation, tai chi, all of these. Okay, so that's variable number one. And actually, number one in the me listing them right now. They're not in order of priority necessarily.

Another one is nutrition. A lot of research is focusing on the Mediterranean type diet, fish, leafy vegetables, that kind of thing. Huge impact on our resilience. We do it for physical health, it's huge for mental health. Sleep, seven to eight hours a night. And no, the phone is not something to do in your bed or your laptop. No, not doing that either.

And fourth category is our relationships, spending time with people we enjoy spending time with. And I'm seeing most leaders and professionals let that one go. They'll prioritize exercise. They'll prioritize specifically cardio, maybe strength training. They'll say meditation is not for them. Even more of a reason to do it. They'll sometimes compromise on nutrition, often compromise on sleep and very often cancel any social plan to work.

And yet these four variables would have the most impact on our resilience. So you say to approach it strategically, what would that look like? How can I assess where I am on those four variables? I know this, I think is truly the game changer here. And here's the way even I got to realizing this is the missing piece. I was working with

leaders, business owners, that kind of thing. And some of them were saying, well, you know, what's my problem? Why am I just not implementing those things that I know I should? I believe in them. I believe in research like crystal clear. I've done this before and felt better. Everything is there. I'm still not doing it. Then at some point I said, well, it's similar to in business when you have a great idea about a new thing to launch, new service, new product. Would you just have this great idea and say,

Great, let's do it. Or would you have this great idea and say: "Okay, who else is offering it? How much are they charging for it? Who is buying it? What forces in the near or far future might impact the demand for it?" You would do all this. This is evaluating the context. This leads to a strategy, so a higher level direction on how you're going to launch the thing.

So same thing here for us with our resilience. So we have this great idea, we know some of the things we think that we should do. And what I'm saying is, let's be strategic, which means your plan, Leanne, and mine will be different. My plan will be different from my plan in three months from now, because my context is changing.

And I'm saying three main ways to get to designing a plan that's yours, that's uniquely aligned with your context. We're focusing on your values. We're focusing on the realistic assessment of your sources of supply and your sources of demand. We're assessing your context using the same framework as the SWOT analysis in business, looking at your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats.

so that you can create a plan that is actually doable. And that's what then changes everything, because now it happens, it builds self-efficacy, that sense of, yes, I can impact my resilience, and now we're actually on our way. I love the idea of using concepts that business owners, entrepreneurs will already understand and applying that to the world of mental health.

equally I can hear a business owner in the back of my head going this all sounds lovely and I wish I could get seven to eight hours of sleep a night but I have a business to run I've got kids at home I've got lots of other responsibilities outside of work that I need to manage I just can't right now how do you help a business owner get over maybe that

that perspective and make it manageable for them to make this plan and then actually implement it as well. The beautiful thing is that each person designs their own plan. So, and I'll give you an example in a moment, or I can work with you if we do an executive coaching session, which I do with some people who say, I love the idea of your book, not reading a book and need a plan now. So can we just make it happen? Yes, we can. But here's the thing. So let's say I am a business owner with all the profile that you just described.

got kids at home, business owner, no time to sleep, eight hours a night. Okay, fine. But if we've gone through looking at your values, which likely includes things like family potentially, and a number of other things, and we've looked at your sources of supply and demand, which means I'm not getting much sleep, I'm having lots of demands at work, for example, and there will be many others. And we've looked at your context, you may be, but you're seeing that your resilience is

at times not as high as it could be. So maybe there is a pillar in your strategic plan that will be called my physical health. And maybe here, what we're saying is, all right, right now I sleep say six and a half hours a night. And okay, I hear that ideally it would get a bit better,

All right, well, maybe action number one is that for the next, whatever, six months, I'm just going to gradually work to increasing my sleep by 15 minutes. One, five.

So if I'm doing 15 minutes over six months, all this means is that tonight all I'm trying is I'm more aware of what am I doing during my evening that I could either not do or take less time doing so that I will end up starting my winding down moment just a minute sooner. And so I'm

Everyone has a minute. This is not going to change my life immensely. But now I'm paying attention. Now I'm valuing my sleep. I'm looking for opportunities. I've increased my curiosity about this particular variable.

I'm probably actually talking to my kids about the fact that I'm doing this. Ooh, that's also positive. Possibly if there's a partner in the house, partner's hearing about it as well. We're all talking more about the importance of sleep. And you see how it's funny because, well, it's funny you are interesting.

Everything is both personal and professional. These conversations are happening here. I may as a leader decide to bring it also in my workplace, which now is impacting our culture as a team and possibly even more.

eventually as an organization on, yeah, we talk about these things. We talk about how not easy this is and how gradual we may need to take it, but how it's yes on the agenda. Is it possible to focus on one variable to compensate for another? So if I'm thinking

six and a half hours of sleep is about all I'm going to get a night over the next six months but I'm going to work really hard on eating really well moving more meditating in the morning is that going to compensate for lack of sleep or do all four need to be in balance?

It's a good question. And well, it depends on so many things. So research would not answer, would not say, oh yes, if you do more of this one, then you can let go of this one. Like if you're eating more asparagus, you can decrease your broccoli intake, you know, it's,

they bring different things and it's as it and not only that, they actually impact each other. So as we're improving, like if we are able to nourish all four and there are others, right? Spending time in nature, doing volunteer work if we have time to do this, having better boundaries, managing your time better, your pillars in your own strategic resilience plan will vary from person to person. So I think that if

we're stepping back for a moment. If the situation is, I think that if starting on the sleep is not for me, for example, but it looks like I can start on getting back to better nutrition, lower hanging fruit, you're getting started, it's doable, do it. Yes, of course.

If, however, you're feeling like you're close to burnout, you're not sure, you're crying on your way to work, you're not sure you can make it, then just eating better is not going to cut it. It's not going to be enough. If you're there, then you want to connect with professionals, probably check in with your physical health service provider, physician, nurse practitioner, and your psychologist, so that

we can help you. And likely, if you're coming to someone like me, for example, we will be as fast as we can investing in these variables and others and possibly even more. So it depends on where we are on that continuum. But if everything's possible, then I would say act on, even in small ways, on all four, probably a bit better than focusing just on one.

At the same time, whatever you can do, do it. Yes. And does it work from the other end? So if somebody has got to the point of burnout, will investing in these help with the recovery? Yes, not only it will, it's best practice. It's included. If you're going to see your physician and let's say it is at a point where you're needing to consider medication, for example, they'll often recommend medication, psychotherapy and lifestyle actions that we can take that impact.

our resilience and mental health. So it's not getting away from us. It's there throughout the continuum. It's just that if, you know, it's similar to say physical health. If we're generally healthy right now and we're eating a few more vitamins, it's good. It boosts our physical health even more. Great. If we are unwell, we have a serious cold here.

Would eating those oranges still help? Yes. Will you perhaps need something else in addition? Likely, but we're still wanting the oranges, right? So that's perhaps the way I would think about it. And you mentioned that leaders might take these conversations into their workplace and encourage that dialogue with their employees. What else can leaders do to create the type of culture that does support resilience? So as a leader, I would say,

Keep in mind, back to a bit of what we mentioned earlier, that workplace is a system. In that system, we've got individuals, all of us, we've got teams, and we've got the organization. And even if we went broader, the organization is within a country, within a moment in time, it's in context. And that's important because we would not want to think, and that would be a lie if I use the name of the podcast, but

It would be a lie to think that 100% of the control of our resilience is in our individual hands. A truth would be that workplace is a system. And now, even when most of the challenges on our resilience comes, say, from the organization, not even the team, like the overall organization,

we still have some impact on our resilience. We don't want to say, "Well, it's all in the organizations. I'm just going to wait until it gets better." Because during this time, it impacts us. And while it's impacting us, those actions we could take would help us either navigate this a bit better or make the decision to not stay. So it's still part of this overall system.

Therefore, as a leader, for everyone it's important, but especially as a leader, you want to think about resilience through all these three lens. And that's part of a requirement of the role, right? You're the person who sometimes gets in the details and steps back to think about the bigger picture.

So as a leader, get information internally about what, if there's anything there but it's worth asking, what is our mental health strategy? Here, go to your HR partner, go to your senior leadership, go to your own leader to ask the question. If there's something there, you want to learn what it is and align your own actions with this movement

not because it's a better idea than yours necessarily, but because it's already a movement that's invested in. And as a leader, you're busy. You've got all your other operational things that you need to do. You don't have a huge amount of time to create one here. They have the expertise, they have the direction, they've invested. Your best investment is to align, find something that resonates, that makes sense, and align what you bring to your team in your conversations, for example, with this.

So maybe the organization, if they're earlier on their journey, what they're mostly doing is providing some resources, maybe providing some documents, some readings, some information. Okay, let's take that. Maybe here, if we're comfortable and we have a bit more investment in it, maybe every meeting there is five minutes on one topic related to resilience.

That could be your takeaway. You've narrowed it down to something that you didn't have. It took you two minutes. You got the information from HR. You brought it here. But what you're doing as a leader is you're emphasizing how important this is. You're contributing to an overall culture, but also to a culture here in this team where we recognize we're human.

and that therefore we need to invest in our resilience to be able to deliver. After this very short break, we're going to hear more from MH, and Leanne asks how the heck we're supposed to fit all of this good stuff in when we lead very busy lives. See you after the break when we might have quietened our dog down. Welcome back. Let's rejoin this interview and learn more about how to build resilience so you can live a happy and calm life while still getting everything done. I'm replaying what you said back in my head through the lens of like the popular mental health perks.

that we see in workplaces. And I'm wondering, and I think often the what gets disconnected with the why in organizations. So we hear about things like mindfulness at lunch. We hear about things like fruit in the break room. We hear about these, you know, cool breakout areas where people will move around a bit more. We don't hear much about relationships and how actually from what you're saying, if leaders invested in even just in the work environment, creating healthier relationships,

that's going to positively impact resilience? Yes, it will. And the other thing to think about is how can leaders influence this? Investing in your own resilience will help you be a better leader. Okay. But it also becomes a way to inspire others to do the same thing for themselves. You're becoming a champion within the organization. So it starts with the perks.

Most often, this relatively early in the process for the organization will be done. Okay, check, we have that. Where else are we going? And that's where, again, it's something that's usually handled by the leadership in HR combined with the overall leadership of the organization on defining our mental health strategy given our business strategy.

But here we will then look at, okay, what deeper challenges are we struggling with? Are we struggling with our workload and how we're perhaps not optimizing certain parts of our processes? Have we optimized the structures we need to give ourselves internally about AI, even if say AI right now feels far away or if it feels very present?

such that instead of representing a stressor that adds to the demand and decreases resilience, we can actually harness this not only for the business but also for the health of the humans in the organization.

It starts with the easier, lower hanging fruit. Yes, it is just a start. That is probably the 1% part of this overall conversation. So a lie would be to think that if you've achieved this, you're done. No, we're not. If you've achieved this, you've started. Is it research-based? Yes. Is it

helpful for at least some? Yes, probably. Is this enough? Absolutely not. This needs to keep going. And can you maybe give an example of somebody that you've worked with, a leader or an organization using the resilience plan and how they've successfully built up their resilience? Yes. So, you know, Leanne, this is my first, probably only book because it's a lot of work as it turns out. But when you do a book, one of the things, a nonfiction especially,

You can do a focus group at some point to test some of the concepts

of the book and so I did that I did an online one so I could have people from around the world and I did that was amazing and one of the individuals in this group her particular situation was was she was describing has having an endless to-do list spending all of her days running after her own self and after her schedule going from meeting to meeting to things to do never feeling like she's

was grounded in some satisfaction of having done something because it just, the list was keeping going and there were many other things. She was in that focus group. So she followed the process of creating her plan using the framework I have in there. And that was it. Moved along. Then I get an email from her

saying, okay, this is so great. I've got my plan. Could you travel to my team of leaders to give us this presentation, the framework of your book so they can create their own plans in a couple of months? Sure. So we book it. I travel. I get there, meet her in person. That's great. And she says, I'm going to sit at the back because, you know, I want the group to enjoy the things.

So I provide the workshop, people get their plans done. At the end, she comes to the front and to me just to talk and says, okay, not expecting this, but here's what happened. I thought I would just sit at the back, let others enjoy the talk.

I realized why not review my own plan since I'm here and it's been three months. So she realized that she had implemented her actions from three months ago because they were so doable.

Her overall life had changed from an endless to do things, incredibly overwhelming, to a clear short list of the things she needs to do, not with those that she doesn't need to.

So all of this had now been implemented for her. So she used that session to update her strategic plan for the next three months, which I know I see you're nodding. That's the thing. That's exactly what we do in business. Same thing, right? The strategic plan is not forever. It is for right now and needs to be revised either at a planned frequency or when the context changes and we need to review it.

So I thought this was magnificent because that's exactly how so many of my other clients before had used it and what it's designed for. I love that. And I love, again, it's connecting it back to the business concepts that leaders will understand. It's not a static strategy that is never revised, revisited and tweaked. What's the impact of it? I mean, I think

I think there'll be people that will maybe understand the individual impacts of that. They'll be more productive, have better relationships, more balance in their life. What's the impact for a business if you've got a whole leadership team or even a whole organization that is working to the resilience plan? It allows everyone to bring their best, basically. Because once you bring your best, you're able to be more creative.

Go with the changes better. And that will be true at the individual level as a team. You know, a team that is resilient is not just a group of individually resilient people. It's us as a team here. How can this team

face a challenge and be ready for the next one instead of needing to recover for so long after the first one. And if we build this as a team, and there are ways to do that here as well, and more teams do this, then we as an organization become also more resilient, not only from a psychological perspective, but from a business perspective, such that as we face challenges, instead of

turning internally because we need to figure ourselves out. We are strong. We're keeping an eye on what's happening externally, which keeps us in an even better, stronger position from a business perspective as well. So it really

transpires everywhere. A more resilient individual and even talking more about it will inspire us to bring this topic to our teams, to bring this topic to conversations and actions at the team and organization level, and then allows us to be even more successful. It impacts engagement, it impacts recruitment and retention. You will see it at different levels. Are there any mistakes leaders can make when implementing this type of

strategy or implementing the resilience plan? Are there some fundamental things that they might unintentionally get wrong? The most frequent one is that thinking, it's probably because we're hoping, that it's going to happen fast.

It doesn't work like that. It just doesn't. And I wish if anyone finds a way to make this happen immediately, talk to me because there's money to be made. But no, seriously, it's just not how it works. And we don't want to think, well, because it didn't work immediately, then I will let go. You need to stay with it. It's similar to so many other changes we do in our human lives, whether it's implementing exercise or

starting to practice meditation these things don't feel better immediately often they will take a bit of time so same thing here you have to commit for a longer period of time to see the changes in yourselves in your team in the organization at the organization level to give you an idea

When you create a mental health strategy for many organizations, this is at least two to three years for the next round to be reviewed. So just to give you an idea, right? It's not, oh, in three months, we'll see how our numbers are.

Sure, we'll keep an eye, of course, because that continues to inform, do we need to shift any element of our mental health strategy? But this is long-term view. And so many of our activities on the operations level often are shorter term than this. And it's normal that most leaders would not know because they're experts in other things.

So that's perhaps the mindset you want to adopt on that particular angle, that this is a longer runway here. And I think that really helps, doesn't it, with taking mental health and supporting employees' mental health from a tick box to a fundamental part of culture and ongoing activity within the organization.

I mean, you're giving us so many practical tips, but I am going to push you for one more. If somebody wants to get started today, apart from going to buy a book immediately, what else can they do? Well, they can look at the show notes because I'm going to send you a link to worksheets that people can use without the book or with the book. And they're very self-explanatory. So that's one thing. And in these worksheets, if you need less than three, you only want one.

Take the second one, it's called supply and demand. And what you'll see, of course, in the book, I explain more here, but what I'd like to recommend you do is list all the demands you're facing right now and make sure you list at work and in personal life and make sure you list the demands that you don't want, which is usually where people go first, but also the demands you're very happy to have that still represent demands.

and then list all your sources of supply, so the ways in which your energy and resilience is replenished. This exercise is the one I've received the most feedback about that in and of itself makes people suddenly see it, literally, because it's on paper,

the disconnect and will often push people to realize one next action they can take. And just like in business, most of the time we don't start with a fully drawn strategy. We start with some actions, which is not, I guess, the perfect theoretical way to get there. But the reality of leadership is that we start with some actions.

And then we say, all right, we need a strategy here. Right. But this will be you're starting with an action and that's a start. And I'm all for any start anywhere because we want action. And if there's one key message, you've shared so much wisdom and so many actionable strategies and steps people can take. But if there's one message you want leaders to take away from this conversation, what is it? That resilience

is not a given it is a strategy and so therefore yes you want to have your plan and take your actions and before we go if you don't mind me asking you talk about this so so beautifully and passionately where did your motivation come from to start digging into resilience it came

It came from so many directions, really. So a love from early, early in my career, from realizing the amount of information that exists in psychology, that if all of us used all this, our lives would be so much better. Okay, so that's one part. Then having been myself in leadership roles from very junior to middle manager, which is probably the toughest, to most senior,

and having seen how hard it is, number one, to implement these things, but also having learned personally, in the hard way at times, how it's not all in your individual hands. So putting all this together is what made me say, okay, we need to focus on strategy and sorry, we need to focus on resilience and bring strategy.

Because we really need both, just one or the other for this particular purpose is not enough. We need both together.

Thank you so much. It's been such a great conversation. I know our listeners will want to learn more about you and your work. Where's the best place they should go? They can go to therezillianceplan.com. So therezillianceplan.com will get you to the book, what I do, everything, my website. LinkedIn, also always happy to connect with people, see what you're talking about. You can see what I'm talking about and then we can all

contribute to this conversation. Leanne, I thought that was really, really, really good. I really enjoyed it. I love how MH can take something that feels kind of fluffy and make it practical. It's only fluffy if we don't talk about the science. And if we're not talking about the science, you're not doing it right. So let that be a lesson to you all. But yeah, it was brilliant. And what I really appreciated was moving away from this idea that resilience is just something that you either have or you don't, breaking it down into those

four key variables I thought was really helpful. So just to recap, that was movement, nutrition, sleep and relationships, and then approaching it strategically like a business plan. I thought that was really useful, particularly business owners who aren't really sure how to kind of break into this world and start to invest in their own mental well-being. I think what really struck me was that bit about how it's not making massive changes overnight. You know, that example of trying to get 15 more minutes of sleep, that's doable. That's something any business owner can get their head on, not the sleep part of it.

bit unless you listen to Tuesday in which case you'll hear how important naps are and how you can actually get zapped instead of a nap anyway that's a different story

Yeah, sleep is really important. Absolutely. And if you do want to learn more about all of this and more about MH work, then do grab those worksheets that you mentioned. We'll pop all the links in the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We're back next Tuesday with our weekly news roundup, our hot takes, and of course, our world famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Yeah, we will. We actually had one this week that we can't include because there's no way to kind of make it anonymous. It's such a very specific...

juicy juicy challenging situation and we weren't there was no way of doing it um

So yeah, obviously we went back to that person as an individual, but we're not going to air it. Anyway, if you have a question, send it in the juicier, the better. Until then, make sure you check out the resilienceplan.com and maybe connect with MH on LinkedIn. And if you did enjoy this episode, then why not post about it? LinkedIn's also good, or the TikTok, the Instagram, whichever your preferred social media platform of choice. Tag us at, I was going to say a sideways life then. No, a different podcast, different world. Different podcasters.

very different ideas no truth lies in work is our handle we would love to hear your thoughts yes we would so we will see you next week where the surgery is going to be done this is not the surgery this is the studio the studio will be done and we had some text issues with this one so which is why it's probably a little bit late on the Tuesday so hopefully those can be solved as well so we will see you next Tuesday bye bye