179. Jumpstart Your Workplace Culture, with Eric Stone
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I find really fascinating is all these job openings. If you ever read the qualifications that go under even an entry-level job opening, I'm not sure I'd qualify for the opening. I mean, it is outrageous. You have five generations in the workplace and each of them value different aspects of what's important to them. And the reason I know this

is because this particular son works at a company I particularly know a lot about. And so I see this side of what happens when it gets too muddy. You're saying it sounds like I'm working in a toxic environment. What do you advise somebody who's in a toxic environment that just can't get out quite yet? If I had to pick...

The biggest thing I think that is helpful is... That all sounds very nice, Eric, but I'm running a business. This isn't a democracy. That's often a phrase I hear. What's your rebuttal to that? I might have even been victim along the way that you're supposed to have all the right answers. That is not the case, but be really good about asking the right questions.

Am I overreacting as a psychologist because I'm hypersensitive to it? Are we making a mistake by even talking about somebody like Elon Musk in this context because he is a complete outlier in everything he does? Or is it a ticking time bomb for everybody? You said that there are certain signs of a toxic culture. What are the key signs

red flags, I guess, for a toxic workplace culture? Oh, that's a big question. You talk about things that are culture killers. And really, what's important is... Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. My name is Al and I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Today we are joined by Eric Stone, a leadership expert who spent nearly 30 years working his way up at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, eventually becoming regional vice president. Now he's sharing his hard-won wisdom through a new book, focusing on what truly makes workplace cultures thrive. Eric brings a refreshingly human-centered approach to leadership.

that's backed by real world experience. He steered teams through challenges like 9-11 and the pandemic, developing practical strategies that balance high expectations with genuine empathy. We dive into what leadership should look like in 2025, the impact of different generations in the workplace, and how to navigate the remote versus in-office debate without alienating your team. Yes, so if you're tired of toxic leadership practices... I am.

I think a lot of people are. You want to build a culture where people actually want to work. I do. This conversation is packed with evidence-based insight you can implement straight away. So let's get into this after this very, very short break from our lovely sponsor.

Welcome back. Let's go meet the amazing Eric Stone. Eric, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. Such a pleasure to have you with us. For our listeners who perhaps aren't familiar with you, would you mind introducing yourself? Tell us who you are, what you do and what you're famous for. So Eric Stone, I always had a passion for business. So love business. I used to overhear my dad, who was a textile salesman, come home from his long business trips and I'd be eavesdropping, kind of learning of his

client interactions or his boss and what he was saying and took that love into my own little odd jobs business through high school, always trying to have an entrepreneurial spirit, went to school for business and then land on a really fortunate, a company called Enterprise Rent-A-Car at the time. And I was one of four people in an entry-level management trainee position and worked my way in different leadership positions throughout, spent a

almost 30 years climbing the corporate ladder there. My last stop was the regional vice president of the Southern New England region. And I would lead some territory in Connecticut and New York. And I took a lot of those concepts when I retired from enterprise and I thought I had more to give. So instead of maybe giving it to a couple hundred employees, maybe I could take this message and

and give it to 10,000, 100,000 people. And hence why I decided to write a book. There seems to be a shift at the minute in terms of leadership. And I know you've spoken before in the past about leadership in the 21st century and what is required. From your perspective, what does good leadership look like in 2025? So I think strong relationships are unbelievably important. And I would make sure you have initiatives that support that.

Another is they're just, man, they clearly communicate goals and expectations. They're crystal clear. They're lasered in. They know how often they need to talk about these three to five key priorities as well as the proper setting, especially nowadays. Is it virtual, in-person, remote?

How often daily, weekly, monthly, you're kind of putting that together and they're brilliant at amplifying the message, knowing when to buffer the message and then when to just really convey the message. And I think another ability to provide the right material and equipment in order to achieve the desired outcome along that employee journey. With that in mind.

How are we currently doing? If you had to grade how leaders are doing against those things. So having having those clear goals, having great relationships, providing the resources that people need. How are we doing? Are we A-star students or are we scraping a D at this point? Yeah, I guess it depends who you're asking. I think there's a tremendous leadership gap right now. And it's pretty obvious we've had to evolve with especially pre or I should say post pandemic leadership.

But you have five generations in the workplace and each of them value different aspects of what's important to them. And they all value, you know, the Gen Z might have a purpose driven work. I was an Xer. I was all I just wanted some money and upward mobility. I didn't care. And I think people are struggling from a generational perspective of how do I motivate people?

all these different generations. I think the flexibility debate goes hand in hand on that, that people are learning to evolve with is the best way in person, remote or hybrid. You know, what's the best way to be productive, innovative, collaborative. And I think we're at a bit of a crossroads that is going to require us to my opening line to really listen, observe and learn about what's going on. I think with leadership, I don't know if you've ever heard, I think it's called the innovation adoption curve for innovators.

And I think with leadership, it's the same thing. So you have the innovators or those in leadership who are those thought leaders and they just get it. They're ahead of the curve. And then you'll eventually have some of those, I think they're the early majority, and then they go into the majority.

majority, all the way to the laggards, the people who are last to figure things out. And I think that's the same with leadership right now. Some are just getting it and others are struggling. Can you give the risk of putting you on the spot? Any examples perhaps of a company or a leader who you think is an early adopter who is really pushing the way forward in terms of innovation and maybe a leader who is a little bit behind the curve at the moment?

Yeah. I mean, I look at when I think of a culture transformation, I think, and God, I don't even know the CEO's name. I know Abercrombie & Fitch was a company that was on, I think it was Netflix, and they, it was all about toxicity. And they were really struggling. And then they bring in a leader, and I'm sorry, I don't have his name or her name. I'm not even sure.

But they had to do a transformation and so they had to look deep. When you would think of Abercrombie and Fitch, it was really this individual who looked and sounded a certain way. And they really had it from a marketing campaign to a bias training campaign to supporting people along the employee journey campaign.

They did this transformation. And so they made some changes of how they hire, how they train, how a store appears, what they do within the communities. And I think those that would be probably a really good example. I think there are too many examples of those who just continue to struggle.

that they just can't seem to make their values become values in action. And they sometimes can't get out of their own way. As you said, there's lots of different variables at the moment that are fairly new to us in terms of remote work, in terms of that flexibility. What may be in this fairly new environment? What are some of the misconceptions that people might have about leadership?

I think I might have even been victim along the way that you're supposed to have all the right answers. And really what's important is you ask the right questions. And so, you know, I used to use what we called was a think tank. And these were my culture carriers. You know, these were a group of managers who would come together, who would help me and guide me through maybe some of the things I wasn't seeing within the field.

And that was tremendously helpful. But I think a misconception might be right now that you're supposed to have all the answers. And that is not the case. But be really good about asking the right questions. How have you seen leadership change over the last 20 years? Well, I mean, I think, as I mentioned, with with the five generations in this flexibility debate,

I think people have really had to have a platform where there is some sort of, I call it the LOL, this listen, observe and learn from their team in whatever setting that you could have. And I think that is probably one of the critical components. As you go into this, these choppy waters, you have to be very adaptable. If there's anything we learned from the pandemic is these situations must we must rethink how we're going to be doing things.

And so I think that the ability to really start to utilize your team and pull some information to be able to synthesize to ask those right questions is critical right now. And I have to ask you, you've mentioned it a couple of times, flexibility. Is it remote? Is it in office? Where do you stand on the whole debate? You know, I really think here's how I'll phrase it, and it might be a little in the middle, but

To me, we are getting so lost in the employee experience and rightfully so. So the employee experience really matters. And so to me, it's as long as your customer experience isn't being compromised, you've got to figure out in your own industry what you do. I mean, in many industries you are customer facing, you have to be there. You know, there might be a staffer or department head in accounting or another feature who might not have to be there.

And so I think without being too vague, there's not a one size for people. I think you do have to have an ability to figure that out. It cannot compromise the customer experience. And with engagement dropping, business outcomes tend to drop, customer service seems to drop. And so we have to find a way to ask the right questions of employee and customer.

The way I'll phrase it is if you were to go to a wedding and this is a little facetious, but of course, if you're to go to a wedding, you know, you're not going to go remote. You want to be there because it is a different experience. And so if you're going to go to a game, you could watch it on TV, but it's not the same. And so you've got to figure those things out.

And there are many who have to be in, especially in the health care world and things like that. You said that there are certain signs of a toxic culture, whether it be the organizations you work with or that you've observed. What are the key red flags, I guess, for a toxic workplace culture?

There are a number of warning signs, I think, from a from a higher level of inconsistencies. And so inconsistency means the you go ask the board members or the staff or the vendors of what's what are the three to five key priorities of this organization and you get different responses.

Which leads into inconsistencies, leads into most likely flavors of the week. So this on Monday, it's all about customer retention. And on Tuesday, it's about compliance and regulation. And the employees heads are spinning and they're confused. And so they don't know which direction they're truly supposed to hone in on, which is why the second factor I gave you in the beginning was this clear communication of goals and expectations there.

are unbelievably critical. From even a mid-level and lower level, there are some basic signs. You ever go to a restaurant and you just feel this tension there? You're trying to get a meal, but the hostess, the waiters, the waitresses,

You know, the attitude and mood are a bit off or the artifacts. You go to a sales organization who used to brag about their championship sales belt that they hold up proud, but it's in the closet collecting dust. And then you go to the silos. You know, are you seeing silos within the organization? Is accounting always butting heads with sales? And how do we somehow try to find a way to fix that? Because again, that creates subcultures which can be good or bad.

So I think numbers are the obvious. I mean, you know, you do an engagement survey, you see your customer satisfaction score going down. There's probably something going on in between the lines. Your vendors and clients, you're losing. You're losing vendors and clients. So these are just a few things that are signs that build to

to become much bigger. I was even ethical violations, Leanne. You know, when you see that spike, that's that's a problem that people are not behaving the way the values are espoused. If you have a summer picnic, a holiday event and the participation is terrible, that might be a red flag. So they go from higher level to some some kind of blocking and tackling stuff. But those are just a few things that you might want to be mindful of. I always try and think of

a listener listening to this and thinking that all sounds very nice, Eric, but I'm running a business. This isn't a democracy. That's often a phrase I hear. What's your rebuttal to that? Listen, I think the job of senior leaders is to create

The strategy and there are some non negotiables that I'm sure you've heard that term before. So within within the confines of the strategy should be a bit of flexibility. But we all agree that the goals and expectations aren't going to change.

We're not going to lower our standard because Sarah or Johnny, who've been with us for two weeks, think they have another idea. You've got to be able to pull from that employee, question, learn from them, but agree that we're going to have a standard that we can't compromise. And so my big thing was, you know, listen, I don't know if it was 80% of the feedback I had. I didn't do anything with. I digested it.

But I made them feel heard. I was responsive to thanks for sharing that, Leanne. It was really important that you told us that we might want to fine tune this policy or procedure. And there's some great value behind it. Right now, that would compromise.

the number one value we have. And here's why we're going to continue to move ahead. And so I think there are some non-negotiables that we're not going to argue that I've come up with a decision that says 10% is our growth or certain customer acquisition goal. We've done the math, we've looked at some data, and we feel really comfortable based on the feedback. And you got to be careful because you know the saying, please all, you please none.

And so I think there are things you will negotiate with and then there are things you're not going to negotiate with. I think how it's delivered is really, really important. If somebody is listening who is maybe an employee and is thinking, do you know what, I don't really have great relationships and work. I'm not provided the resources that I need to do my job and I don't really have a clear idea of my goals from what you're saying. It sounds like I'm working in a toxic environment. My mental health is struggling. I'm exhausted. I need to leave my job, but...

Current climate, economics, I've got a family. What do you advise somebody who's in a toxic environment that just can't get out quite yet? There are more than I'd share to acknowledge that are going through this right now. I went through it. And so the guidance I would give is step one, learn from what is not happening within the organization. Many of my initiatives that I now used were used in the past.

The initiatives that became staples were not from what I got or from what I didn't get. And I committed to myself that as I grow within any company, specifically where I was, here's what I'm going to change. So number one is you just just try to learn from that specific situation.

I think it's important that as you're struggling and trying to figure things out, that you're seeking out, in a sense, mentors. Some companies assign mentors to you outside of your department. You need to seek people out either outside your division or even outside of the company and start asking them some questions about what you're seeing and what they might want to be doing. You're going to try to upskill your own mentors.

You might ask for extra responsibilities so you can try to showcase what you have. But I will tell you one of the most important things is actually having the courage to have the conversation to your, I guess we'll call them boss, supervisor, direct report, asking for an opportunity that we might want to refine some things. And those are things in the meantime, while you're tweaking your resume, potentially, I think those are things that at least help you get started. Because if I left,

enterprise. And I had plenty of people who weren't good at helping me lead. And I didn't go through some of those unique things because they're omnipresent. They're at every company. You go anywhere, there's going to be some opportunity. And so the key is first try to solve it, communicate it. And in the sidelines, make sure you're using those outside networks to create and tweak your own little resume. Don't just assume it's going to get better somewhere else though.

And do you think it's the same with, you say that with Gen Z, there might be that element of this is all new, the world of work, not sure what is normal, what should be expected. Is that similar for millennials and Gen X who perhaps just normalised behaviours that are toxic, but really great leaders won't tolerate?

I mean, I think it's all about generational perspective, training and learning about each generation and what they're about. And so I'll try to give an example that I hope answers this question is when when millennials first came in, I was getting really challenged because, you know, for me, as I mentioned in the beginning, I was very much driven by opportunity and money. And I didn't mind checking in some long hours if that's what it took.

And what the millennials were telling me and my team is that, well, time is a currency. And so being able to have, as I mentioned before, those culture carriers to tell me in the field of like, wait a sec, Eric, this doesn't work right now. Help does design what we ended up calling a scheduling with precision exercise with all our management team, which were at that time heavy millennials.

And so it was understanding perspectives, understanding what they were looking for and trying to come up with a way to maybe if we schedule to our employee and customer needs, it might be a little bit easier to execute some of these things. But what's important for Gen Z today, and this is what's really important,

is not going to be important in five years because they might begin to raise a family. They might start moving out on the road. And so sometimes there's a bit of a shift, which again is why you always have to have a really good presence or find ways to be omnipresent as a leader. A lot of your work talks about removing obstacles to be able to do a great job. And I think you said something like adding is easy, but subtraction is smart in leadership. What do you mean and why is it important for leaders to remove

opposite goals rather than add pressure. There's this fallacy. It's literally it's called complexity bias. And we tend to think the more complex a solution is, the better the result is going to be. And if you remember, one of the early things about this ability to buffer or avoid the noise is great organizations know when to kind of take a little pressure out of the ball. It doesn't mean compromise your standards necessarily.

But there's a great story. Have you ever heard the Lego story? I think so. So, well, in case the audience has, this is an example of complexity bias is they gave a building, I believe, to a set of engineers and they said, make it better.

And of course, what did they do? They added to the Lego set because they thought that was needed. They did the same, but with literature students and a poem. They said, hey, make this poem better. And of course, everyone tried to add a sonnet or paragraph to it. I've always felt that you have to avoid some of the noise. Sometimes you've got to look at that first principle theory, thinking on your policies and procedures and figure out a way to

to potentially make it just a bit easier to digest. I'll give you an example. My son right now, I won't say which one, but they're technically both kind of in the workplace. He's really struggling from a standpoint of they continue to put pressure about all these reports that are needed and end of day shells you've got to submit. And in his situation, he's barely surviving because he doesn't have enough people.

And he's got to manage his employees hours and still provide time in the marketplace and one on one settings and doing all this. And and it is really unrealistic. And the reason I know this is because this particular son works at a company I particularly know a lot about. And so I see this side of what happens when it gets too muddied. And sometimes you do got to take a little off the plate. I'm not saying all the time.

But clarity is key. You got to have those three to five key. We call them big rocks. What are the three to five big rock items that we need to worry about? And let some of the sand, we used to call it, some of those administrative tasks at times, that's not urgent. And so I think those really good organizations find a way to make it easier. I'll give you another small example. I was victim of it. We had all these ranking reports for our team.

But there were too many categories. And with too many categories, you have no one can pay attention and it gets a little muddied. And so we looked at these 10 things and condensed them to five that match the competencies of what we hire for.

And all of a sudden it was, OK, now I understand where I can and I feel I can move the numbers even more. And I'm really honed in on. So these are just a few scenarios and situations of trying to, by listening, trying to find ways to do that. And sometimes you can.

Don't you dare go anywhere because after this very short break we'll be back with Eric and Leanne as they dive into the truth about bad leadership and why great organizations sometimes need less not more. Plus Eric reveals why fear might actually be useful in the workplace if you channel it correctly. Welcome back let's rejoin the interview where Leanne is quizzing Eric on the practicalities of actually implementing this leadership stuff. What I love about that Eric is that you've connected leadership to operations you've connected it to people and culture to HR and I think there's not

I don't hear many conversations about leadership and culture that actually also bring in

operations. Is that something that leaders are just not seeing? You know, I think with everything, it's what you decide to put as a priority. And so the great organizations just find this easy ability to have not only their values, but their behaviors and action follow suit to the training initiatives and the support that matches the priorities. And with everything in alignment, it's just a little easier to digest. So

I think some leaders lose a little bit of touch throughout the way, which is why we've shared a few times, you know, there's a story about, was it Starbucks? Who, who, uh, the prior CEO would spend time in the field listening and learning from their people about opportunities and challenges side by side with a barista. You know, that, that's a statement that,

That says, listen, we've all got to contribute and find ways to continue to balance everything that we're trying to do. It's such a powerful thing, isn't it? I worked for a company. I had a phenomenal director who would do that. I would sit down every single member of the team every quarter, every single member of the team, whether they were a manager, whether they were a part-time administrator.

Every single person with the same amount of time. And what it bred was this, as you say, this trust that's so important in terms of if I give you feedback, it's going to be taken seriously. It's going to be actioned where possible. It's going to explain to me why it can't be right now. And it creates this adult to adult relationship. I remember being in our head offices in London once.

And another contract manager was there with a couple of members of her team and they had a different director. They walked in and there was fear in their eyes. They all stiffened up. They all went wide-eyed. They didn't say anything. My director comes in and he's like, oh, hi, guys, you all right? And everyone just breathes out and feels able to contribute. Is that something that leaders maybe...

underestimate? Is it actually if you're approachable and likable? Such an important question. Yes. So I learned so many lessons to this day of one thing I tried to do, to your point, was whether it was a new hire lunch where I would get to learn about specific hobbies or a little bit more about whatever they were willing to share and then participating in training classes. So I have a touch point of our initiatives and learning more about them. And

And then along the way to making sure the reviews aligned to what we're preaching. And my HR manager was amazing with it. What people would open up to because she was willing to do these stay interviews, you know, why we why we want you to stay. And she probably did maybe 15 a month that she would she became very approachable. They believed in what she would say, because when it was important, we did address it. And you'll be amazed.

And I'm sure I was guilty of where I I still think there's the fear of managers above you because you don't want to appear as a complainer with someone who's blaming something, especially early on in your career. It's like someone who interviews a great interviewer has a way to pull the curtain down and really get what this employee is all future employees all about. And same with a great leader who is working with a variety of employees. They have this trustability.

Because they're responsive, because they're super empathetic and truly are listening actively, and then they respond when it needs to be responded to.

such a critical component. And I will tell you a huge opportunity for so many people because they feel they have this quote unquote presence, but they're just not going to open up. And again, 11 nieces and nephews, three kids and the people I advise still, they tell me they don't communicate everything in fear of something. Bringing that back to how that leadership behavior then impacts

the culture? I mean, some of the world's biggest companies talk a lot about innovation and progress, particularly in the age of AI that, you know, we've all been, it's been an onslaught the last six or 12 months. Are there any companies you're seeing where actually their cultures are starting to get

starting to step backwards the technology innovation is moving forward in terms of products but as a culture things seem to be getting a bit more archaic well i mean i think the people who aren't going to adapt i think are always going to face issues and opportunities and whether it's in the open ai world and being able to get data or a large set of data to help you with some of your decisions and they're a little concerned with what that brings i think there are a lot of companies that

who continually will have to. It's kind of like that innovation adoption curve, but with leadership. You'll have those who kind of get it. You're going to have those who don't, those laggards. And I think what's just critically important

is you have those in leadership who, when you get antiquated or outdated or if it's innovation and progress and you feel it's not working, that someone feels willing to speak up, those people in leadership, I mentioned culture carriers, that are willing to say, hey, this isn't right. We're not adapting to the times. Here's what I think we need to do. And they supply some solutions. And I think that's just...

cross-sector, wherever. Those are some things that I just think are critical. You mentioned that when it comes to the remote in-office debate, and a lot of what you said, really, it requires that adaptability, it requires that consultation, it requires that individualization where we can. And yet we're seeing organizations like JP Morgan, like Tesla, what Musk is now doing with Doge, we're seeing that strict return to office mandates, mass layoffs. We're seeing that

open letters from employees expressing their concerns. And yet the reaction from these leaders is very much control. How do you see that playing out?

Is this just a fundamental shift? Is it a pocket of leaders? How does this fit into everything you said before? Because it seems in so much contrast to the beautiful human led leadership you've spoken about up to this point. Well, I mean, again, I think you can balance it. I used to call it the velvet hammer. I write about it in the book. You can still have a tremendously high expectation of

And and make sure you don't lower standards, but you can still treat people right by by pulling and using terms of, hey, tell me your thought process that went behind it. I think what we're seeing, whether it was Jamie Dimon, Elon Musk, you, in my opinion, again, in my humble opinion, you can still get to where they might want to go because step one.

If you're declaring your values are where to work in person, as long as you declare what you're about, I don't think that's wrong. If that's what you believe in, you're bet you better hire and you're going to limit your applicant pool, but you better stay true to your values. And I think that's what they're trying to do. The problem is they deliver it so quickly.

You know, again, that email. I mean, can you can you get it any worse than that? I mean, you can still get to challenging people and making difficult decisions and layoffs would be difficult decisions. I've had many family members and friends who have recently been laid off. And as long as it's done in a humane centric way, I don't think I think people understand that times will change. So I think they have to find ways to shift a little bit. The problem is they're they're so complex.

Good at their what they do. I mean, it's hard to say Jamie Dimon or Elon Musk. They're not brilliant. The problem is, is because they always have got there from their style that way. And I think they just have to find ways to potentially make adjustments in a bit of an empathetic way.

approach, have a little bit of empathy throughout it. They're used to pushing boundaries and that's what's made them great. But you can have a high character and a high standard. You just got to throw in the perfect mix of training and trust. And I wouldn't deal with them, my team that way. I'm also not nearly as successful as either of them. But God, I wonder how great they'd be

if they had a little bit more empathy. Is that the case? Because what I'm wondering is whether listeners, well, not listeners, sorry, listener, you're listening to this, though, not you, but some people might think,

That all sounds great, Eric. But actually, from what you said, I'm summarizing then that the harder leader I am, the tougher I am, the more, whatever way you want to mask it, however they're talking about it now, the more successful I'm going to be. Actually, if I'm nice, then it's going to take me longer. I won't be as successful. If I want to get to the heights of that level, I need to put

put fear into my people. I need to control them. Yeah, no, I mean, I completely, again, like I would disagree with that. You have to do that. You can even go in the sports world. So you don't even have to use Elon Musk or Jamie Dimon. And what happens and people need to take note, history tends to repeat itself. You'll have a coach who is high intensity, high pressure, and you'll get away with that for a period of time.

You can. You can get away with it. But what happens is that eventually there's a bit of a revolt. You know, I don't know if the audience are huge New England Patriot fans, but there was a coach named Bill Belichick who was extremely involved, not too flexible, and was it was great for extended period of time. And then he left his organization in turmoil because he didn't adapt. And so, no, I don't think you need to do

just high standard. If you have a high standard with that mix of training and trust and you're really giving them, the more I trained, the more I coached, the more my team developed, the more I could challenge. There's nothing wrong with that. It just can't be unrealistically there. But sometimes the most unrealistic leaders do find ways to achieve greatness.

And so they need to polish up a little bit for my my own opinion. What unsettles me about the leadership behaviors that that we're seeing is that the danger that they are normalized.

that the regular entrepreneur sat in Manchester or London or in Connecticut will go, do you know what? I'm going to subscribe to those leadership behaviors. I'm more coercive, bullying type. This is what we need to do. This is the way I want it. Everyone back in the office. Am I overreacting as a psychologist because I'm hypersensitive to it? Do you think there's a danger of these types of coercive behaviors, leadership behaviors being normalized at a scale that could be really impactful to corporate, to business world?

That there's no doubt. And I'll give you, I'll share an example, but, but this also will go back to my point. So, so there was a point with someone like a Jack Welch who his leadership style was get rid of the bottom 10. And, and he was high, high pressure for sure. And I'm sorry, I'm just using him. There's many out there. And I think people, the concern, whether it's with leadership, who's running the country, whoever the organization is,

My fear was always, and people will think that's okay. And that is very dangerous. And so I think that's also what makes the world amazing is you have all these different approaches and people can choose not to go there. They can choose not to do things. So.

I learned a lot of what others didn't do. And I would only hope that people are smart enough to say, I think I might have to change a little bit. But you bring up a good point is when you see a coach or a leader just tearing into somebody, it becomes okay. We were joking around before we started. And it's funny, sometimes you'll throw an F-bomb or see that wasn't necessarily my style because if I did it,

I felt that was okay that my team would do it. So I would pick my times wisely to drop an F-bomb or whatever it is. I think people have to not be so robotic where they think just because the leader says it, that is the only style. So there's got to be a bit, as we've used the word many times, adaptability. It is a concern that we have leadership who...

just doesn't seem to get it and they're getting away with it. And as you said, do you think that it's just a matter of time until some of these leaders don't get away with it because it impacts their business more

too much? Or do you think it again comes down to that, the brilliance of the odd one? Are we making a mistake by even talking about somebody like Elon Musk in this context because he is a complete outlier in everything he does? Or is it a ticking time bomb for everybody? I think with everything, they're just going to have different styles and approaches. And you're going to have people who are unbelievably successful being demanding and unrealistic. And they're pushing boundaries all the time.

And then you're going to have others with an empathetic style. The one that is more sustainable would be human centric because there's less churn because they do it the right way. You know, to give Elon Musk recent credit, at least when he was on TV talking about Doge, he at least said, well, when I make a mistake, I'm going to address it. So he was trying to be transparent in his own way. He just has to realize he is such an intellect.

that he misses the emotional side of things. I think it can be dangerous. I do not recommend organizations do that because I think you can balance both and

Some are going to follow and some will not. And there will be continued shifts like there always is in leadership, though there are some timeless principles for sure. The leaders listening, and I know you've mentioned some really great, great aspects already, but what would you think are the real skills or competencies they could invest in now to really level up their leadership over the next 12 months? Oh, that's a big question. If I had to pick...

The biggest thing I think that is helpful is the leadership presence piece that we've talked about a few times, because that allows you to see you have this high standard, most likely leadership.

and high expectation. And you do want to have an ability to make sure there's some reality that goes behind it. And so I think one I would always challenge is that. I think I would really look at your hiring process in any organization. I find people don't even know how to interview the right way to find the right match. And there is a difference between fit and match. And so I think leaders need to make sure their teams are

have that hiring process going. I think leaders need to ensure that with their high standards, those three to five we talked about a lot today, that their training needs to ensure it supports the ability to have that high standard. I think those are really, really important. I think leaders need to reevaluate the not just the values, but

But the behaviors that truly go behind those values, I'll take it one step further. They shouldn't even have the values in the three behaviors under each to continue to define who they are. They might want to consider anti-values. And these are those common sense limiters. So, for example, with something like empathy, every company might have an empathetic type of value. If you're too empathetic,

If you're actively listening and sharing resources, if you're too empathetic at times, you might be afraid to hold people accountable and have that difficult conversation. So I would tell leaders to, other than themselves, understand that little bit of a roadmap.

And I can't stress enough, not only their own training for behavioral training, but making sure their team has behavioral training tucked in throughout, not just how to grow your sales, but what most people struggle about. And it's not necessarily the leader. It's, it's.

your team might not know how to manage their time, have a difficult conversation, understand these hot buttons with different generational perspectives. So there's a wide range of what leaders could do, what they should do within their own organization, what they should support them with their teams to continue to have those, as I phrased it, high character, high standard. I love that you mentioned recruitment. Oh, oh, I just don't. It's not. It's the you know,

I don't understand how any conversation about leadership or culture can be had without a conversation about recruitment and how you bring that talent into your business. The fascinating thing I have is from being on the sidelines and watching a variety of people and having their own success is

is what I find really fascinating is all these job openings. If you ever read the qualifications that go under even an entry-level job opening, I'm not sure I'd qualify for the opening. I mean, it is outrageous of what they're trying to tuck in. Remember we talked about addition by subtraction and they're trying to give this 47 item list of what the individual needs to do. That's a problem. But yeah, hiring, do you ask the right questions? And

And to go a little bit more on match and fit, a lot of people are looking for, so fit would be I'm looking for a size 8 shoe. Only a size 8.

And the match is the tie for a, for a gentleman who, you know, now pops with the shirt and the jacket and it goes with the pants and the belt and all that stuff. And, and you better find ways to match your culture. You better find ways to make that applicant process smooth. You better find a way. I was always involved with the third interview process for entry-level positions. I wanted to see who was coming through our door, builds trust relationships begin then. And so, yeah,

hiring and recruitment. I do a lot of talks. It's always about we can't find enough people, which is which is true. So look at your interview process. Look at who you're going after. But how about you start engaging your team? How about you start keeping people? And so they align, you know, in the same conversation.

So if there was a magic wand, just an element, whether it be a behavior, a way of working in the leadership world, in organizational life, that you could just eradicate? I'd probably go to complexity. What happens when some of that complexity is removed? What impact is the leader going to see? What impact is the team going to feel? It is almost step one, they're listening. So there's this, oh my God, they actually, they didn't just...

say they would do it, that they're going to do something. And so I think it breathes an ability to now channel the energy too. And what it starts to do is people believe now they can truly embrace what is in front of them by just, and I'm not saying remove as I call them the big rock. I'm talking about some of the sand that just gets in the way, the extra update, the extra meeting. We ended up coming with a meeting matrix. You talk about things that are culture killers.

And I found we had too many meetings. And so, well, that meant that the team was missing valuable time with their own team and with their customers. And so we created a meeting matrix of, you know, how many meetings do we have? How long are they? How often are they? What is the purpose? Is it getting the right behavior?

And the ones that weren't, we threw them overboard. And all of a sudden, instead of having staff meetings every month, it was twice a year. We just made them count. And that's just one small example. It's an easy one and relatable to use today, but it allows those under you to feel heard and execute to the highest of level.

And I think that's what greatness can be. Do you also think that's how you can, leaders can create that lasting culture that evolves, but fundamentally stays core to its values and what it wants to achieve? Is that part of that evolution is to continuously look at the complexity and try and simplify? I'll give you a very brief version of an approach that keeps culture going and

I wanted to come up with a visual and that was timeless and hence an hourglass. So you can see if you're on video, you can see an hourglass. And these are all about the principles that we've already talked to many of them

about, you know, and so on the top of an hourglass, for those who can't see as you envision, there's this discovery phase. That's the ability to pull from your clients, vendors, stakeholders, whoever may be. And as the hourglass starts to come out, right, you're starting to get all of these plans together. You're starting to orchestrate until it comes down to where the sand goes through. That's that amplify part.

That's where you're going to amplify your message. And as you're amplifying those key ingredients, it bows out again. And that's the reinforcement of things that is through reviews and one on ones and performance impact meetings or whatever you call them.

And so everyone is aware. And as it lands, you better assess. And this is the important part about continuing to be adaptable is you better have some way to assess it, a survey or whatever you're utilizing to check the health of your organization, a simplified hourglass approach. Now, the key, and this goes into some of the conversations prior, is on one side of the hourglass, there is kind of a pillar and that's mission vision values. And on the other pillar of the hourglass is going to be your policies and procedures.

And those are going to help you guide your decisions to ensure you're not tripping up. And somewhere in that cycle, there's probably something you want to be ready for. Technology happens. Something new comes up. There are plenty of distractions that we exist. So there is a way that you want to have these timeless principles that keep things from going. And the point of culture, the reason I was so impassioned, I am passionate about it is the catalyst for

to executing the plan. And it is the shock absorber, the shock absorber when times are tough.

It gets people through it. Culture is not all about when things are great that it's so vital. It's actually conversely when things aren't going well and the culture within that organization, somehow people still believe within it and they push through and they find themselves in a great position. I want to go back on one thing that you were talking about with pressure and then there's fear within the workplace. I think one thing that's important is

So it's okay internally that people have fear or pressure. Matter of fact, that's when some people are at their finest. But there's a difference between a management style of fear and creating a sense of urgency. It's kind of the same approach, but it's just perspective. Pressure the same way. It's okay internally.

to have these high standards and unlock people's potential as long as you give a roadmap. And so since that was really, whether it's these companies are innovative and pushing and pushing and pushing and the Elons or Jamie Diamonds or whoever is, sometimes it's just a small tweak of the phrase and it makes it say, no, no, no, that's okay. I bet most of our biggest accomplishments, and Leanne, if we asked you what your biggest accomplishment was, I bet somewhere in that you had a little fear, hopefully the right way, sense of urgency,

And there was some pressure on it. Maybe it's because of your power of five, the five that you hung out with really supported you to try to push yourself through and unlock your own potential. And as you say, it's that environment that turns that negative fear into motivation. And as you say, that sense of urgency. I think this is the power, isn't it, of

of psychology of human behavior are great leaders. It's this, there's a similar principle, but it's channeled for good. Yeah. So, so important. And I want to be really clear that I recently got a, an email from somebody who I used to be in, you know, help lead. And it was interesting because,

Because they said, Eric, you know, but how do I do it at a younger level? And I'm like, the same way. Sometimes it's just not good. And you've got, as we talked about, those things that people can do if they feel it's toxic or not going well. My experiences weren't all beautiful.

I just was able to learn what not to do, as we mentioned before, and to grow with it and try to acquire things on my own that I might be able to get and share. And so a lot of these principles, especially the ones I write about are, yeah, they're for senior leaders and

HR and CHRO and people officers. But if you're young and you're trying to learn, these are initiatives that can be tucked within the organization. It's not always going to be an easy experience. And that's what's so important. As we said, your biggest accomplishments are usually something that required an awful lot of work. Eric, thank you so much. I know our listeners will want to learn more about you, more about your book, more about your work. Where's the best place for them to go?

I think the best place, if there's just one, we talk about addition by subtraction, LinkedIn. If there's one spot, that's where I like to post every once in a while. LinkedIn, though I am on Instagram as well, thanks to my daughter. Not big yet, but LinkedIn's the best way. Well, that was the amazing Eric Stone. Go and buy his book, Jumpstart Your Workplace Culture, right now.

Yes, and also give him a follow on LinkedIn. Tell him that you heard his interview on our pod. You thought it was fabulous. And of course, everything Eric talked about, his books, his links, everything you need to find him is in the show notes. And talking of LinkedIn, if you enjoy what we do and want to help us, one of the best things that you can do is mention us on the old LinkedIn. Something like, just listening to Truth, Lies and Work podcast and I am loving it. Leanne is the best one.

She probably is, actually. No, not really. And if you haven't already, do that subscribe thing, leave a review, tell your mum about us and all the normal stuff that boring podcasters say. Well, not boring every podcaster say, but the boring stuff that podcasters say. Just going back to LinkedIn very briefly, we have a lot of lurkers on LinkedIn. There's many people that I'll end up reaching out to them and have a chat and they'll go like, oh, I love the stuff. And I'm like, well, you don't.

like it on LinkedIn also in terms of our YouTube I saw something shocking like something like 85% of the people that are watching the videos aren't subscribed come on now it would be lovely a lovely little little like oh I didn't like this show that's how we know you know

Enough about me. Come on, break you out. Talking of the show, we're going to see you on Tuesday, hopefully, for our regular Tuesday episode with our weekly news roundup, our spicy hot takes, and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, I think that's all the business concluded. Business concluded. See you next week. Bye. We are here to help you simplify the science of work and make amazing, no, make, create amazing workplace culture. Should I do that again? Baby.

He's doing it live. Don't know. Straight away. Straight away. But wait, there's more.