206. Digital eye-rolls, loud living and Pride Month silence. PLUS! Should we regulate management?
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Coming up this week in work. What do you do when your team has gone all passive aggressive, but it's all happening online? From eye roll emojis to snarky emails, digital communication is changing how conflict shows up at work.

So how should leaders handle it? And our hot take this week is from someone you know very, very well. One of the leading psychologists in her field and also the co-host of the Truth, Lies and Work podcast. Yes, it's our very own Leanne. For the first time ever, hot take.

And in the workplace surgery, what do you do if you're managing somebody difficult? What if they even told you to do the work yourself? We discuss how to balance being a great boss without being taken for a mug. This is Truth, Lies and Work. The award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.

And my name is Al and I'm a business owner. And together we help organizations build amazing workplace cultures. So let's get in today's episode right after this quick word from our sponsors. HubSpot's Inbound Event 2025 is bringing together the brightest minds in business, AI and entrepreneurship. We're talking Amy Poehler, the genius behind ChatGPT, Dario Morode and Sean Evans from Hot Ones because apparently even hot sauce interviews

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No, we're not. I am. I'm manifesting. Oh, okay. Yeah, you can come and meet us there. That's the reason to go and book your ticket today. VIP experience will no doubt include us. I'd imagine they'd invite us to the VIP area. So go and visit inbound.com slash register to get your ticket today.

Welcome back. Right, okay. So, you know our continuing drama. We're now in Bulgaria. Regular listeners know that we live in Herzegovina, near Mostar. We're now in Bulgaria. We're here for about eight weeks. It's a beautiful place, but taking our studio on the road has been a little challenging. So if you hear maybe a bit of an echo or something, it's just not the... We're not in our studio, is what we're saying. Or a puppy dog in the background. Yes, well, yes. Yes, so if you're

spending your summer somewhere else maybe you're working on the road as well let us know get in touch all the links are as always here in the show notes but enough of that yes leigh-anne enough of that it is your favorite time of the week it is what what time is it lee it is time for the newsman but cue the jingle jingle's being cutified i did remember to bring it i did oh that's good that's good you managed to pack in time so lee what have you seen this week i have any words yes go on

Digital incivility. Do I have a guess? Yes. Incivility. Well, you always talk about civility in the workplace and you always say that's basically just being civil, being nice, not being an arsehole. So digital incivility would be someone who's being a bit of a knob over digital means, so like Slack or something. Yeah. Yeah, is that it? Bang on, 10 points. Ding, ding, ding. Excellent. You get a prize. What's my prize? I will find some sort of...

Sweet treat. I'm going to get an apple, aren't I? Yes. Anyway. Tell me more about this digital incivility. So yes, digital incivility, it means subtle rudeness or disrespect that happens through digital channels. So things like emails, messages, Slack, video calls, that type of thing. And it goes against the basic norms of mutual respect at work.

That's the definition. So we're not talking full-blown bullying. It's the quieter stuff. You know, the stuff you were talking about last week, like the eight ways to tell someone to do one. Yes. So it is those things like, as per my last email, or just messages being ignored, eye rolls on Zoom, bet, I

I think was one that we had an example of someone from our YouTube channel on the YouTube. Got in touch with a Gen Z kind of pet peeve. So yes, that is cyber incivility. So I came across this in a post by occupational psychologist Nicole Fletcher.

williams who like nicole we love nicole we love nicole so she was referencing a new systematic review by jew and pack 2025 so hot off the press and i thought she described it really perfectly she said it's not the overt stuff but those little moments that stick with people silence that feels cold a message that lands a bit too blunt video called body language that makes you second guess yourself

So yeah, she shared this study and it's a really interesting piece of research. So the review looked at 31 studies, the results of all of those, and then drew some conclusions from it and found that cyber incivility is especially common, perhaps unsurprisingly, in remote and hybrid teams. And it's doing real damage. So it's been linked to emotional exhaustion and burnout.

poor motivation and performance, higher staff turnover and even physical symptoms like sleep disruption and stress-related illness.

I'm right this is gonna you're probably gonna kick me I'm gonna get cancelled for this but I'm like if someone just says I just posted my last email and you are suffering from sleep deprivation or stress I'm like maybe you need to have more important things in your life I don't know teach me school me leave say that but work is pretty important and if you're getting it constantly particularly maybe from somebody who has more authority than you and more senior position with you it can start to cause some real anxiety around your own job security perhaps

But I think what's really striking about the research, and I thought was a really interesting conclusion that they found, is that people don't often feel angry about this digital incivility. They feel sad. Oh. I know. And I think what the researchers pointed out is that that can actually make it harder to spot. If someone's kicking off, then it's fairly easy to see that. But it is much harder to talk about if somebody's just feeling a little bit sad about it.

It's a bit blue making to just have some passive aggressive comments and emojis and reactions from colleagues. So, yeah, easy for leaders to miss entirely. Al, thoughts? Well, tell me, if I sent like I sent you, hey, Leanne, I've just done this project. It took me a few hours to do it. I'm really pleased with it, but I'd really love your opinion on it. And you just did a thumbs up. Would that be a digital incivility?

I think it all depends on the social norms of the group. So it could be that if you ask me to do that and I did a thumbs up, you're probably like, oh, that's just Leanne kind of...

showing that she's seen the message and she'll get onto it if you were doing that to maybe a manager or a colleague that you were really hoping to get a more detailed reaction from them maybe i think you mentioned it in terms of some of the um generational differences sometimes like you'll write a long message and then just get like okay um it's it's all just kind of what is kind of agreed and expected within the within the norm so perhaps maybe if you're

if I you're used to me sending that of course I'll look at that um after lunch I'll come back to you by five that's usually how I reply and I just a thumbs up you might be like oh

is that shift in behavior isn't it that that normally comes back to is that change that we're not expected to can feel as being a bit bruised up a bit alert to something going on because you could be digitally incivil no incivil uncivil that's the word you could be digitally uncivil without knowing it just by using the wrong emoji but the good news is the research should also point out what helps in these scenarios i guess some of these are kind of of um

kind of preemptive you could do beforehand, but also potentially reactive if you're starting to see some digital instability. So the first one is set clear digital norms. That's what we were kind of saying about things to avoid in terms of email, tone, use of emojis, what to avoid. And that might be a really simple thing. Just not use emojis as much that people might misinterpret. Train your team in digital etiquette and emotional awareness. And I think that's a big one, isn't it? Where

You know, you said this before, you know, people need to get more important things in their life if they're feeling a bit sad because they've just had a bit of a turn on email. And it's like, yeah, but if that impacts me emotionally, if I take that to heart and that kind of helps me or it means I question my competence at work, my self-efficacy.

then that can have a real impact on, as we've seen, my mental health. It's maybe that awareness that it might be no thing to you, but having that emotional awareness that it might be a thing to somebody else. And then finally, to make space to check in and clear the air when something lands wrong. And I think that's really important, is just keeping that...

that communication open in the same way in terms of am I being a bit too sensitive when you sent that probably yes but having that having that conversation um yeah because I think that's the thing isn't it these behaviors are digital but they are still very much behaviors I mean no behaviors um shape workplace culture so if you don't talk about this stuff it can fester and start to have an impact

Thought it was really interesting. Thank you again to Nicole for bringing that study to my attention. I will leave a link to her post and the study in the show notes. Al, what have you seen this week? I

I saw something in Fast Company. Well, actually, to be fair, I saw it on LinkedIn, but the actual article was in Fast Company by Ali Kushner. Look at you. You're on LinkedIn this week. You're on Insta last week. You finally get into socials. I'm just old and I'm tired and I've seen it all before on Facebook and on MySpace and on Bebo. And I'm like, do you know what? I don't need to learn another platform. But anyway...

Grumps aside, Ali Kushner, that's what I'm talking about, not me, Ali Kushner, Ali Kushner, she wrote an article in Fast Company called Forget Quiet Quitting, Now I Am Living Loud Living. I know. I've got a new word. I've got a new word. What do you think loud living means, Lee? I don't know. I guess doing you unapologetically and very loudly. Okay.

Prioritising life over work? Yeah, exactly. It's the last one. It's pretty much all of those things, but it's mainly the last one. This is what Ali says she lives. So basically her idea is that instead of going, if let's say that someone says, oh, can you get this project done by the end of the day? And you go, well, I've got to go and pick the kids up.

some people would be like, yeah, no problem. And I think, well, I'm gonna have to work until 11 o'clock at night. Whereas she says, no, set your boundaries. Go. I'm afraid that's not possible. And this is the wording I think she used in the article. That's not possible. And you can say, in fact, I think she says you should say because I'm picking my kids up. Not the whole point is not, that's not possible. I can't do it. And, and,

She's bringing her life to work by going, I have other things in place. Also, she says, rather than blocking out busy, which we do all the time, don't we? But rather than blocking out busy because...

I'll tell you in a second what made me chuckle. Busy. Then put something like going to the dentist because then you're like living life out loud. You're going, I'm going to the dentist. So it's not a question I can't do. It's a question of I've got other stuff on. The reason it made me chuckle was that I saw this a little while ago on Twitter and it was something like...

I only realized today that my calendar was public when my boss emailed me and said, I'd like to meet you today at three o'clock. You've got a diary entry called get a chicken. Is that something that can be moved? Which really made me chuckle and also made me think, does he mean go and get a chicken, a live chicken to go and squeeze eggs out of it or go and buy a roast chicken? I don't know. Anyway, so back to Ali. Basically, she's saying don't hide. Don't pretend that you haven't got a life outside work.

Just turn off and go, yeah, look, I can do that, but I have to take the kids. Or I can't come into work before 9am any days. Those are my dead, my hard boundaries. Can't come in. But absolutely, I can stay till six o'clock on Tuesday, Thursday, and I can perhaps do Saturday morning or something like that. Thoughts, Leigh? I enjoy the transparency. I enjoy being upfront that you have other responsibilities that need building into your day. Yeah.

I worry that some organisations would use this as a way to discriminate against parents or carers or people with a disability or people with a health condition that need more appointments, that type of thing. Um...

But in the spirit of this being used for good, yeah, I think it's good. Because I think as well when you see someone who's just busy, like, oh, they're always busy, they're always this. But if you see it's actually for decent reasons and it's at times of the day that aren't called work hours or even after work, I think it's good. I think any transparency, anything that shows that we can bring ourselves to work that whole person, it will help to build relationships, it will help to...

breed empathy because we're seeing that somebody is human. I think often we can forget that with our co-workers, particularly those in leadership positions. So I applaud it. I would approach with caution depending on the culture of your organisation. I might think there might be some cultures, not healthy cultures, but some cultures that might use that as a way of

of potentially picking people out. But that's just my cynical side speaking. And Ali didn't mention that, I don't think, in the article. And I'm sure that she would if you pushed her further because Fast Company's only give you like a thousand words or something to talk about. I think if it was left up to me...

This is why I can't work in an organization because I'd be like, okay, right. I'm going to try each week and see if I could put the more and more ridiculous things in my diary and just see at what point do I get called into HR to go, um, you've said plan a revolution for Tuesday morning at 10 a.m. And you've actually invited three of our ex-employees. Is that something, uh, is that, is that?

That would be amazing. And actually, you know what? It's humour like that that is actually a really effective way of building relationships. Again, depending on the type of organisation you're working in. But yeah, I'm sure things like that do really well. I'm always kind of remembering things like that. Usually my experience, I've worked really well in jobs that have high emotional labour, that are quite dark. I mean, like at Samaritans, there used to be a lot of that type of,

chat going around because you need that that lightness that levity um so yeah i don't know i would enjoy that in fact i would very much like you over next week to put those things in the diary and i'll report back next week as to what my favorite one was

If I dared, I'd put my diary public online so listeners can go and subscribe to it. But the amount of rubbish I put in there, no. I'll often put in there things like, oh, don't forget to put the kettle on or give the dog its flea jabs or something like that on a work calendar. So yeah, maybe I am living out loud. There you go. I think you are. That's what I'm doing. I'm living out loud in our organisation of

two people and two hounds. Lee, what else you see, my love? Do you know what? It's more what I haven't really seen. It's Pride Month, June. Don't know about you, but it feels a bit different this year. It feels like everything's been a bit quieter. I've not seen as much online. I've not seen as much in my news feed of organisations kind of

kind of celebrating this and yeah the only thing I've seen I've seen a couple of things from organisations that work specifically within diversity both

posts as well saying that it's been quieter and also some posts from people who are part of the community who are saying they don't really feel safe to celebrate Pride this year which is really sad worrying so when I did see this article it kind of made it all click for me so this was the Times it reported that loads of big brands have actually poured out a sponsoring Pride event

in the UK so we're talking people like Sony, Durex, Costa, HSBC, Deloitte massive companies they've either gone completely in terms of events or they're doing something much much smaller and what the article actually went on to highlight was that three quarters of pride organizers have said they've lost corporate sponsors in the last year really three quarters man wow I

It's a lot. Sorry, is this because of the cancellation of DEI stuff over the pond? Yeah, and I think it's still, it's that sentiment breeding in the UK as well, isn't it, with Reform and Nigel Farage and all that stuff.

So yeah, so we're saying that a quarter of them have lost more than half of their funding. So it's no surprise that these events aren't happening. They're not as visible. So we're not seeing them online or on socials. As I said, a big part of this is fear.

especially from global brands who don't want to be targeted by Trump's anti-DI agenda or the tariffs and all that kind of stuff. So there's a growing pressure to stay neutral. And Sophie Wood mentioned this when we spoke to her about trans inclusion a few weeks ago. It's not that organisations have gone hostile. They've just hesitated. They've stopped talking about it. And that's as damaging because this support that people are used to feeling and experiencing isn't there anymore.

And with that, what does it feel like for people who are actually in the LGBTQ plus community? Well, it says that there's a quote there that said it was like being told we supported you when it was easy. And now it's not. We're not going to put ourselves in a position where we might, you know, experience some negative backlash, which is kind of so sad.

frustrating because that's the point, isn't it? We're supporting minorities who are used to living just their day-to-day life, experiencing negative consequences and opinions for no good reason. So for organisations not to have the authenticity to go, no, we'll stand up with you when it's hard, it kind of makes you wonder whether they've been in it at all or whether it has just been for good press, for, you know, for...

yeah, nice stories in the media that makes people think they're the nice guys when really they don't really care. So yeah, I think if you are there, out there and you are seeing this as well, I'm sure you're feeling a bit angry. I'm sure you're feeling a bit disappointed. And I'd love to hear from people in the community about how their organisation might be celebrating Pride this year or supporting them during this time because Pride

Yeah, my anecdotal experiences seems to be that things are dialing down massively and this article in The Times seems to support that as well. Al, thoughts? Yeah, it's all very sad, isn't it? I think we...

I mean, I can, I, from a commercial point of view, I can see why particularly large companies would go, Oh, well, we won't support it this year because we want to see where, where the chips fall or whatever. Um, it is, it is potentially, you know, if they make a decision that there's the wrong decision, then yes, I can see they won't be scared of that. I mean, it's not, they shouldn't be, but I can definitely see their point of view. Um,

Maybe we're going to transition to more of a... Is it grassroots? Is that the right term? Where, like you say, where individual organisations celebrate it and there's no... So maybe it is that...

HSBC just threw some money at it. It was just a rounding error at the bottom of their promotion budget and they didn't think about it at all. And so now everyone's like, well, this is not right. Last year was like, as in this year, next year, they say last year was a washout. So we'll do something properly within the organization. It might just promote people or encourage people to do something proper in their organization, which isn't just for show, isn't just a, oh, well, of course, we'll throw a couple of mil at that and we ticked our DEI thing. I don't know. I hope I'm looking on the positive side.

Yeah, fair. It might be that organisations are re-diverting funds into initiatives that are more on an individual level, potentially. Yeah, that's fair. I've got no basis for that. Well, yeah, I'd hope that'd be the case, but equally I'm sure these organisations would still be shouting about that if they thought it was publicly a good thing to do. It's really sad-making and I think it brings into question...

what is going on in the world and how organizations are showing up because it's this lack of authenticity, particularly millennials and Gen Z won't get on board with. You know, they're going to remember that HSBC dropped this or Deloitte did that. It really is. So I think if you are a small business, and again, it's usually small businesses that we don't see this type of behavior from because what

you might think oh it doesn't really matter they're just not having an event they're not having a party so what it's about more than that if you've been to a pride event it's about much more than that and even if you want to say it's just a party it's representation it's that visibility in the world that is so important so people who see it who may be are afraid of being their authentic self or younger people who don't know how to have that conversation

you know, just having this representation in the media and TV shows, it's much easier, you know, for people to come out now than it was 30 years ago because it's just much more, much more common and people see it and empathize with it. And yeah, TV is actually a really powerful way of doing that. So anyway, as if you are a small business, I think it's, it's important to maybe just check in with your people at the moment, see what,

what support they might need, how you can help them make Pride a worthwhile month, whether it be around educational interventions, awareness, just checking in and seeing if they're OK. Because I think right now it's going to be a lot of people feeling very stressed

scared, very anxious, very let down by politics, by leadership. And as we know, if all these organisations are doing something that is this spineless and this inauthentic, what an amazing opportunity for you to stand up and actually show your values and show your people that you really care. Yeah, well said, well said.

Okay, so we're going to go to a break. But just before we do, a little thought for you. And use Roundup. We tend to be looking for articles. But if you've got something newsworthy going on in your organization, or perhaps you've done some research and you want us to talk about it,

Well, if it's any good, we will absolutely check out the show notes. You can send an email to Leanne. Um, maybe Leanne, it's truth, lies and work to be honest, but you can check out the show notes. Um, and, um, yeah, let us know. We might be featuring it next week. So after this very short break, we're going to be talking to the UK, no, the world's leading psychologist, um, in our workplace culture. Um, and her hot take. Yes, it is the amazing Leanne Elliott. See you in just a second.

Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back. Yes, it's time for our hot take with our very own Leanne Elliott. She's a chartered occupational psychologist. She is a work culture expert. I should be able to say that by now. We've been doing this for about five years. She's also my wife and my co-host, so I'm a little bit biased, but I want to know, Leanne,

First time ever. Are you nervous, by the way, on this hot take? Are you nervous? First time we're doing it. Do you want me to say yes? Yes. Very nervous, Al. Very nervous. I'll take it easy. Don't worry, Leanne. So what grinds your gears, Leanne Elliott? My hot take, I believe that people management should be a regulated profession. As in doctors? As in like that sort of regulated? Talk more about that because that sounds, that genuinely is a hot take. So talk more about that.

I'm a psychologist. I am governed by at least three codes of ethics, five if you bring in the fact that I'm also a coach, countless laws. If I do something in an organization or with an individual that is harmful to them psychologically, emotionally, that causes them trauma, that causes them stress, mental health challenges, that

that individual and or organization has channels to go through, whether it be the British Psychological Society, the HCPC, that they can make a formal complaint, they will get me struck off and I will never work as a psychologist ever again. As a psychologist, not a patient psychologist, I will never have as much impact on somebody's mental health as their direct line manager. I just can't.

Because a line manager has so much influence and at times control and power over people's emotion and psychological health. We know from the data that managers have more of an impact on mental health than somebody's therapist. We know that 65% of the variance in employee engagement is down to a line manager. We heard from last week about how serious trauma can be caused by direct line managers and leaders.

So to me, it seems really strange that we have these people in organizational life with absolute power and control, positive or negative, over somebody's mental wellness, their career, their development, their potential way of living if they lose their job through this person.

We have these people in organizational life who aren't trained, who aren't governed, who aren't regulated, who aren't monitored. And I think that is a significant problem in organizational life that we haven't even begun to think about, let alone solve.

So if we're going to make it so that a manager has to be like, you know, has to go through this training, has to go through a certification, I'm guessing, that kind of thing, that's going to restrict the number of managers we can quickly spin up. So does that not mean we're going to start with fewer managers? And that's going to cause big problems for organizations who want to grow quickly. There will be a transition period where it'd be painful, of course, but...

Ultimately, no. I think we'll be left with fewer bad managers. I think that process alone will identify the people who really want to manage people, not just get a pay bump. I think that process will also...

train people up on what it means to be a manager and make sure that they don't accidentally or unintentionally do harm. I don't think the majority of people would want to do harm to an individual. There are some people that are, the narcissists, the people who are psychopathic, sociopathic. So I think ultimately, yes, it would be a transition that would be painful, but I think one that would completely transform the

the performance levels of an organization the productivity levels of an organization and the overall mental and physical health of the entire nation i should mention there are organizations that that do work in in this way i think it's the institute of chartered

is it? Is that what it is? The IMC? I forget the way it is, but chartered management is a qualification you can do, but it's not one that's mandated. It's not one that's specifically asked for in a lot of roles. You look at people like CIPD, it's a really good comparison. If you work in HR,

you too have that impact potentially over the human experience. So therefore you are trained, you are monitored, you are part of a professional organization that sets a standard for how people in this profession should be working. Again, lots of codes of ethics around that. And again, the HR managers, leaders, you're the ones that are left to pick up the pieces after a bad manager has done their worst. So again, it kind of makes me think that

All the people that are further down the chain, the occ psychs, the business psychologists, the HR professionals, we have to be trained and heavily regulated, yet the people with direct impact don't.

It's like saying, oh, we won't regulate GPs, but we will definitely regulate the surgeons because they do the really important work, you know? Yeah. So imagine that you came into power and you put this in place and you're like, well, okay, everyone needs to be certified. What's the sort of minimum training you'd want to see people have? I would want to see some training around what we call psychosocial risk factors at work.

So these are things that are actually mandated by HSE in the UK in terms of organisations should be doing an audit essentially on these levers of stress essentially within organisations. Should be legally doing every 12 months, very few organisations do. Therein lies another problem. But it's going to be things like understanding that as a manager, the sense of

control and autonomy my people feel, how they experience relationships in the workplace, how I approach change in the workplace. It's very practical, transactional things as well as things that might be more core skills around leadership, emotional intelligence, self-awareness, that type of thing. Of course, listening is going to be a big one as well. So I think those would be the kind of the two broad topics I'd turn it

turned some kind of training into is around the psychosocial risk factors. So managers just educated on how they influence and impact organisational life. And on the other side, some work around self-awareness, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, that type of thing. Yeah, I think those two things together would have

such a transformative impact on the experience of people in work. That makes a lot of sense. And I know that you've, I mean, if we had merch, then on the cap would be if you did one thing, because the analyst says if you do one thing, just train your managers. Let me ask you a weird question. Do you really want this to happen? Or do you think that that will be fantastic if it did happen, but you think practically it couldn't? I think practically organizations would make a way that it couldn't.

Because if you have good managers, then you have more equity in organization. You have more fairness. You have equal pay. You don't have people on power trips that will lay off 15,000 people and then put out 5,000 adverts the next day just to lower pay. I think that was Microsoft we saw recently. Oh, no, Intel. Intel. Sorry, Microsoft. Well, Microsoft is just about to do it. Yeah, yeah.

So no, I would love to see it happen. I think it would absolutely transform not even organisational life, but I think it would change, it would drive change at a societal level in terms of our relationships, in terms of our levels of anger, in terms of our health, our fulfilment, our ability to find meaningful work, making sure that we're being paid fairly. It would have an impact on so many things.

I don't think it'll happen because I think organizations will never champion this. And ultimately, you're going to need organizational buy-in, at least initially, unless it came into law. It would be so disruptive that I don't think there's a government or an organization that would voluntarily choose to do it.

But just because something's hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Yeah, bravo, bravo. If people want to hear more about you, where would they go? Where would they go, Leanne? Well, you can listen to my podcast. I'm the co-host of the UK's number one management podcast, Truth, Lies and Work. You've got a little podcast. That's cute. Thank you. Available wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. OblongHQ.com is our organization. You'll find me on LinkedIn. I say it every week, but I believe all the links will be in the show notes. I believe they will be.

Thank you so, so much, Lee. It is now, now you're swapping to hosting Lee now. Yeah. Hosting Lee. Lee is my favorite time of the week. It is your favorite time of the week. What time is it? It is time for the World Famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. You already know who Leanne is because she just, I normally I give you a little sort of like 10 second with who Leanne is. You already know, unless you've skipped to this bit. Go back and listen to what Leanne said because she gets a little ranty and it's kind of cool. Okay.

Okay. So the first question we've got in here, why is it so hard to get back in a routine after time off? I've had, we've had a really weird time. Don't, don't ask. We talked about it two weeks ago, really weird time over the last couple of weeks. I found it really difficult to get back into it. So I'm with you here, caller. Um, hi,

Hi, Alan Leanne. I've noticed a weird pattern in myself and I'm wondering if it's just me. Every time I take a short break, even just a weekend or a couple of days off, I completely lose my rhythm. Before the break, I'm in a good routine, getting stuff done, sticking to habits. But when I come back, I feel off, like mentally foggy, unmotivated, and everything just takes longer. It's frustrating because the break was supposed to give me a break from work, but I end up feeling worse. Is there a better way?

to ease back in without losing all my momentum. This is so common isn't it? I'm sure everyone listening will be like, I've totally had a break like that. There are things that you can do and it's things that you can do before you go away and while you're away that are going to improve the quality of your time off. Your time off is to help you rest and recover. We build that resilience there.

We actually looked at a study on this from the BPS a few months ago, the holiday effect. Basically, research showed how people take paid leave makes a difference of how energized they feel on their return. So it's things like completely detaching. So no checking emails, no going on LinkedIn, no going on any socials where you follow lots of work-related content.

Absolutely not accepting any messages or phone calls from your colleagues, completely detaching from work, not engaging with it in any way, meant that when we returned to work, that well-being boost lasted longer. Activities was an interesting one. So what they found is that physical activities on holiday actually help us more in terms of that relaxation.

recovery time and the impact of that. So things like if you went on lots of walks, you went on a skiing holiday, or if you're somewhere sunny, go swimming every day. Having that type of physical activity has a much better impact in terms of how effective the time off is and how much our well-being is boosted for longer on our return. It was something like two, three times longer if we had a more active holiday. Right.

lounging around didn't really have any positive impact on on our boost in well-being when we returned which seems counterintuitive it seems what we want to do um but not so much and my my theory on that would be that potentially when we're lounging around we might still be thinking about work things we might be reading something that will trigger something around work whereas actually when we're out about doing stuff it's harder to it's easier to distract ourselves from that

And also what I thought was interesting is if you go on holidays with strong levels of social connection. So if you went on a holiday with some friends or you brought in some family members along or you go somewhere with lots of people similar age to you, where are you going to get on with? That also boosts our well-being on our return. And I think finally the thing is

As I said, before you go, how do you handle that? How do you wind everything down so you can switch off? So who's handling that client? Who's picking up your emails? How is that all going to be managed while you're away, which we talked in detail a few episodes ago. So I will leave a link to that to go and listen. It's really about making sure that you completely manage

wind down your work hand over feel comfortable that somebody is gonna pick it pick it up for you whilst you're away doing all these things on holiday being active being social uh completely detaching and then when you come back having that handover from that person rather than 10 000 emails to come back to that's kind of the tips around how to take holiday my only other thought would be are you taking long enough at one time having kind of a couple of days off here and there

oh it's hard to it's hard to switch off enough and then and then go back into that world so my advice would be if you're just taking these short breaks maybe try a little longer holiday and see if that has an impact as well in

integrating all the things that we just talked about. Yeah, from a personal point of view, when we took some time off, we went to Spain about a month ago, came back and I genuinely forgot my password to get into my computer. I was almost going to get locked out. And I'm like, I'm sure it's double character in the middle, but it wasn't. So yeah, I can totally see that. I think...

Like Leanne says, detaching is definitely going to help, but perhaps just preparing for your return might also help. So just clear off the first day that you're back and put in your calendar, like we said before, put in your calendar, okay, from 10 to 11, I'm doing my emails. From 11 till 12, I'm writing out my tasks for the week. From 12 to 1, I'm doing so-and-so.

Then when you come back, you sound, looking at your letter, it says, how old am I? Look at your email. It says, I'm in a good routine getting stuff done, sticking to habits. Well, clearly you have habits. And what seems to happen is when you're coming back, you're like, what are my habits? So actually plan out your first three or four days. Make sure your habits are in your calendar or iPhone reminder or Android or other phones are available. And that might help you just to get back into the swing of things. As Leanne said,

A weekend three days away, probably for someone who's into habits, is probably not enough because you're probably going to spend all your time thinking about it and then come back and you're like, you might feel foggy because you go, I feel like I've not really had any time off. That was a waste of time because all I did was think about work. So you're a bit tired about that. But yeah, I mean, those are some of our thoughts. Lee, anything else that might help? No, I thought that was some really, really good tips there. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, so we're on to question number two. Why is hiring so hard?

I'm right at the beginning of launching my business and honestly, hiring has been brutal. Out of seven interviews I lined up last week, only two people showed up. Eesh.

No replies, no cancellation, just ghosting. This week is going the same way. First interview today, another no show. The business isn't even open yet. We're going to talk about that in a second. The business isn't even open yet. So I get that I don't have much of a reputation to attract people, but also I can't run the whole thing on my own. I'm offering decent pay. I'm guessing I can't run the whole thing on my own, meaning that that's where they need to recruit someone. I'm guessing.

I'm offering decent pay flexibility and I'm clear that I need people who can multitask a bit, but still it feels like tumbleweeds. Is this just what hiring looks like in the early startup phase? Leigh, thoughts? Yes and no. Right. If you have an organization that's brand new, untested,

Yes, people might be reluctant in terms of job security, in terms of what they're walking into. It's a different startup world, it's a different organizational vibe and that's going to attract some people and not so much others. That said, my question to you would be how much effort have you put into your recruitment process? And my feeling is you're getting applications from people who are maybe

kind of scattergun applying because they're really in need of finding work, either because they want to leave their job or find one.

And when something better comes along, they're ghosting you. And we know from recent research is that ghosting is big amongst the Gen Z in terms of how they manage a recruitment process. So that's not unusual. That is just sadly something that is trending at the minute. I would say there is possibly something in your job advert, your job description that isn't landing in the right way. Maybe it is a bit too vague in terms of this multitasking thing.

I would focus on, because you're in startup, I would focus on the vision you have for your organization. What's the reason people are going to get out of work every day to put everything, the effort into your organization, into your dreams and goals?

How is that going to align with their values? How is that going to make them feel in terms of contributing something positive? How does that make meaningful work for them in terms of the specific role that you're recruiting them to do? And then in terms of the third part of that is a recognition. If you've got good pay, some decent benefits, then that's going to kind of be the final bit of glue. I would focus on that aspect first.

um initially whilst you're building your reputation the other thing i'd say as well is that if your first stage is interview i'm not really surprised that people aren't really showing up because that is again on an unknown limited information out there about you and your company

a fairly big ask for somebody to take time out of their day and go to wherever it is that you meet them or even do a Zoom call if they've got other priorities or other recruitment processes they're engaged with. And maybe look at having a quick telephone conversation. Maybe look at, you know, their first, making the application a little bit more complex. So, for example, we used to do a work sample test would be the first stage of our recruitment process for a company I worked with that was really well because it helped you really understand

Maybe other candidates select themselves out of the process before you even start thinking about interviews. So a work sample can be really helpful. I think it's maybe looking at your recruitment process first.

I would suggest having a quick conversation with a recruiter, somebody in HR, somebody like myself, to just kind of talk through what a simple, non-expensive, but effective recruitment process could look like. How that's reflected in the documents you're putting out there, your job descriptions, your job adverts, where you're advertising your job is going to have a massive impact.

difference in terms of the type of candidates you're going to attract. I think that'll make a massive difference to the current success rate you're having. And I would counsel you to go down that route and educate yourself a little bit around the recruitment process and what it looks like rather than going straight to a recruiter.

recruiters typically, unless it's a very, it's a niche role or it's a volume role. And at this point, I'm not sure you're entirely sure what it is in terms of a role. And it's certainly not at the scale that recruiters are, you know, some of the recruiters are used to dealing with. So that would be my advice to educate yourself on the recruitment process. Because I think, I think you'd see some very quick wins doing that. Yeah. And there's a couple of things I'm going to add to that. First of all, having done a few startups myself, what I found was that recruiters

putting adverts in the paper didn't really work, uh, but going out and finding people. Now, if you want to hear how to hunt people, which sounds a little bit weird, but go and listen to the sweaty startup, uh, Nick Huber. Uh, his episode was somewhere about one nine four, something like that. You'll find it. Um, he's, he basically, that's how he gets all his talent is he goes to Starbucks, sees the person running around and fixing problems and solving problems. And he goes, would you like to come and work with me? Yeah. He actually got a much more elegant way of doing it. Um, I think he says something like, um, uh,

if you've got any friends who'd like to explore this. The second part of it is that you're in a startup company

So, like Leanne says, it's all exciting, but also you're not... If you've got people who are maybe my age who are looking for, you know, maybe you've got a family or something and they're like, I can't afford to take a punt on this. And they might apply. You might have given them an interview date and then they go and do some research and go, oh God, I can't go and work. It looks cool, but no, it's not for me. It's not for me. Your no-shows could actually be them just being a bit nice to you, going, well, I don't want to say I don't want it. So they might just...

i'll just not turn up because i might hurt their feelings sounds like it's actually worse than not turning up the third and final thing i would say is if you've ever done any marketing or any advertising and you advertise on something like facebook then generally if you if you run an advert on facebook and say would you like to buy my stuff and they go yes i would you go book a book an appointment here you're gonna you're gonna know show you got a shop rate about 20 because like leanne said one you're advertising facebook that's everybody

So you're going to get people who just go, oh, yeah, yeah, fine. I'll stick me email address in. That's absolutely fine. And then forget about it or just change their mind. Whereas if you were to, if you would did something around, I don't know, if you were looking for a software developer and you advertised a job on Stack Overflow, you're not advertising in the paper, you're advertising it just in front. So you've got much more chance of getting someone who's A, going to be good and B,

is going to see it, the right people are going to see it and C, you're going to turn up. Sorry, I've kind of mixed up all those things. My main key message is where it is. Number one is that every startup I've done, I've gone out and I've never, and I've recruited either. I've run an advert for an intern, which worked really, really well. I've got a fantastic one called Richard Tank, who now runs a digital agency himself. He's run several now, he's off on his own. And my second thing I think is that, yeah, it's look where you're, like the answer, look where you're recruiting.

You can't just put an advert in the paper these days. You need to find a very specific place where people, your people are hanging out. And I'm sure by paper you mean generic ad boards. Because nobody's posting a job in paper now. Not in the print. Another thing, I know you didn't mention what your organisation is or how it works, but a great way is just if you're able to offer the flexibility, offering remote work.

as an optional remote first. I'm sure that will significantly increase your applications and the people that show up as well. And with that, there's remote specific jobs like flexi jobs, that type of thing. But most job boards now have that option post COVID. So that could be a little trick to get more applications. But the fact is you don't want more applications, you want quality applications. So I think there's a little bit of work to be done here. But I love that idea, Al, in terms of, yeah, finding interns going to

Yeah, getting in touch with local colleges, universities around career days, that type of thing could also be really a really good take. And as you say, younger people typically more energetic and optimistic about startup life and perhaps somebody a bit older who has got a few more commitments.

Okay, Lee, question number three. How do you manage someone who keeps pushing it? I've read this before. Push it real good. That's got a different, that's a different pushing, I think. Moving on to this. I manage around 20 people and honestly, I find it hard to get the balance right. I'm either too soft or too harsh. One team member's constantly late or leaving early, always with a personal reason. Been going on for weeks. I finally listed out all the times that she's left early and she just replied, you approved them all. My

I did not. Then yesterday, I asked her to do a report. She told me I should do it myself. Wow. My own manager's avoiding the issue. I'm stuck. How do I handle this without making things worse? Hey, I want to hear this answer. Hmm.

20 people is a lot, actually. So I'm not surprised that you're not getting the balance right with everybody. Yeah, go be easy on yourself. That's a tough one. I'm sure you're engaging in your own training and professional development to help you with this. So I won't even dip my little toe into that side of it. This is, it goes back to that incivility in the workplace, doesn't it? This isn't digital, it's face to face. But it is these types of little behaviours. I mean, I'm not going to lie.

If I had a manager who came, who let this behavior continue for two weeks and then came with me to a long list of things that irritated me about them about me, do you know what I mean? Then I'd probably be a bit like, oh, well, you said I could as well. I think that would probably, yeah, kick in my little, um, yeah, defense response.

I don't think you handled that in the brilliant way. If you notice the behavior, and this is all what it comes down to is having difficult conversations, which is one of the worst and hardest things about being a line manager. The most important thing about having a difficult conversation is to have it really early so it's not that difficult. The longer it goes on, the more difficult it gets. And the more you dread that conversation, I think it was, was it Kat who was on the show probably 50 episodes ago, said the more uncomfortable it is, the more needed that conversation is.

So I think the fact that you left it two weeks hasn't helped. I think by the sounds of it, there is some misunderstanding

around the flexibility this person has in their workplace that might just need to be reiterated to them in terms of why they you know if they do have to leave early how that process is managed whatever your internal process is and if you don't have one then kind of what do you expect if you're not you've not got those boundaries I'm sorry our dogs are as we did say at the beginning of the show are around and starting to get a bit vocal we've ignored them for about 45 minutes now so that might be why

So, yes, I think reiterating what is your policy around flexibility, what is your preference as a manager in terms of how that is requested. Make sure you're flexible as well, because the more rigid you are isn't going to help to rebuild what is now tipping into a difficult relationship. I think finally giving this person again the benefit of the doubt. If you've asked them to do a report and they've said no.

Why have they said no? Have they said no because they don't want to do it, they can't be bothered and they think you should do it because that's your job? Or is it because they don't feel comfortable

capable or confident enough to do it is it a stretch activity that you've given them and we know from lots of research around this in terms of this type of delegation is if you delegate in a way that's like I understand that this might sound like a big ask I understand that this is new to you that it's going to really push up your comfort zone I think because of how you handled the

this task previously the level of communication you showed the level of insight the level of analytical thinking you showed I think this is going to be a really great task that's going to push you but in a way it's going to be really great for your development I'll work on it with you or we'll check in as and when

And kind of framing it like that, again, we know from the research that building up somebody's confidence when we delegate a task massively increases the likelihood that they're going to accept that challenge. So I think there's some things that you could be doing here in terms of your management, assuming this person isn't just really awful. It might be that they are. It might be that they're going through something. Why are they having to leave?

early every day what is going on there it sounds like this a little reset conversation is needed in in terms of this person in terms of the policy around leaving work early in terms of why they didn't feel able to take on that extra report and just a little bit of a welfare check in terms of why they're needing that flexibility is everything okay is there something going on that you could be supporting them with

Yeah, excellent answer. And I think I'll just add one last bit to that is saying, is it out of your 20s, is it just a problem with one person? Or are you having this problem with most of your people? Because if it's most of your people, it probably is your management style. If it's just the one person, everyone else is cool as a cucumber, then maybe, I mean, was that one person potentially up for your job as manager at one point?

Leanne says maybe there's something terrible going on in their life. Yeah, if you go back to Christina Hawkit from last week, she was talking about divorce and how that's got a huge impact on work, you know, and so perhaps this person's going through a divorce. I don't know. Maybe they're a bereavement. You don't know. Like Leanne said, in fact, first thing you need to do is email Leanne and have like 20 minutes with Leanne. She will tell you how to fix this. Secondly, it may be you, but

But thirdly, it may only just be that one person and maybe just unlucky that that one person is making your life a little bit hell. Just like a lot of people have got one bad manager in their life making their life hell. If you got rid of that one bad manager, everything would be cool.

Yeah. Yeah. There's some there's some investigation here, isn't there, in terms of whether it is you or whether it is this person or more than likely a small combination of both. But yeah, as Al said, I offer a link to book a call with me direct and I offer a free half an hour advice to anyone who who needs it. I'm not trying to sell you anything, just trying to help. So, yeah, get in touch.

Okay, that's it for this week. If you've enjoyed this episode, then good news for you. There's another one next Tuesday. If you enjoy the interview style surveys, no, what am I talking about? Interview style episodes, there's another one Thursday. And if you have enjoyed it, then can you do us a little favor? Can you jump on whichever platform that you use?

I mean, Apple Podcasts is the perfect one for us, but leave us a review. Just give us five stars if you think it's worth five stars. And just a little sort of like, oh, I like this because that really does genuinely help us. We have been at number one in the management podcasts in the UK for quite a while. Business, I noticed this morning, Leanne, on Apple Podcasts, we're about 25, which is great because we were languishing around at about 50 a couple of weeks ago. And I think that's down to the number of reviews that people have left.

And also just say nice things about us. Genuinely makes our day. Monica Todd. Hello, Monica. Hi, Monica. You're still our favorite.

Still our favourite. She says, really lovely on LinkedIn. We've never met Monica. Don't know who Monica is. And see, our little dog approves. So there's a little thank you from our little dog called Bobby. So yeah, if you just, if there's something, if you like it, then just maybe mention us or we sound a bit needy here, but to be fair, it did make our day. It really did make our day. It really did. You know, it's so much about community and we believe that you're there and we

getting value from this. We love it when people get in touch and tell us how they can get more value from the show. So yeah, everyone needs a little bit of love and appreciation. So we massively, massively appreciate that. But yes, we'll be back on Thursday with another interview. And we're finally going to bring you that interview about Canis at Work that we teased ages ago before our life got turned upside down. We will be speaking to Jeff LeBlanc.

no relation as we know. As we know. I meant to ask him, but I didn't ask him. Yeah, I'll ask before we, yeah, before we put that out. We'll find that out. Jeff is awesome. He's an author, university professor, a proud Bostonian, an expert in kindness and empathy in work and all around just really nice guy. Well, he had to be really. If he's an expert in kindness at work, he couldn't be an asshole.

or could he it would be it would be odd so yes we'll be asking Jeff the question is kindness at work a weakness oof Jeff has spent thousands of hours looking at the impact of kindness at work so we will be finding out do nice guys and girls finish last yeah so we'll see you on Thursday with Jeff we'll see you next Tuesday with Leanne and Al that's us two and hopefully we'll be able to lock our dogs somewhere else for next week

If you want to see what our dogs look like, go on LinkedIn and put a little post on there. Okay. See you soon. Bye. Bye-bye. Coming up this week on work. Got it wrong already. Brought to you by the business. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The business. Oh my God. Why can't I get this out? The audio destination for business. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is the. What's that?

...by now. If you don't, this is your first time listening. Leanne is a business psychologist. Chartered Occupational. Chartered Occupational. See? What on the... That was good there.