From warzones to boardrooms: José Andrés on leadership learned in the kitchen
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We humans, we've been building in the last post-World War II a good world. A good world that in America is full of imperfections and that we need to work together to fix them. Of course, but you don't fix them burning everything down. You fix them by...

Coming together to the table, realizing that problems never will be solved by finger pointing. Problems will always be solved sitting down at the table and coming together in how we find common ground. That's the way we build good intent, good empathy, good policy, that then becomes good politics because it's on behalf of all Americans. That's the way we should be doing it. So that's why, in a way, I'm hopeful.

That's Jose Andres, chef, restaurateur, author, and founder of World Central Kitchen. Jose has a new book out, Change the Recipe, filled with lessons from Jose's life in the kitchen that can be applied to leadership and everyday life. We use the book as a jumping off point to discuss everything from what rules are worth breaking to the benefits of unplugging to why everyone has the potential, in Jose's words, to be superhuman.

We also cover the ongoing hurdles that World Central Kitchen faces in multiple war zones around the world, the messy state of Trump's tariffs, and more. Above it all, Jose's enduring optimism shines through. I don't know about you, but I need to hear some of that right now. So let's dive in. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response. ♪

I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Jose Andres, renowned chef and restaurateur, TV host, author, father, husband, and founder of World Central Kitchen. Jose, it's great to see you again. Thanks for being here. Happy to be back, Bob. Yeah. So you have a new book out called Change the Recipe. Yes. It is not a cookbook.

It's a book about building a better world. Or as the subtitle puts it, you can't build a better world without breaking some eggs. The book's filled with personal stories and advice. Why this book? Why now? Well, I don't even think it's a book. It's a few thoughts, a few ideas of my life since I was a little boy all the way until now and things I learned.

Things I learned from the right decision, things we learned maybe from the wrong decision, but that they help you to become better. Random stories that I wanted to share with my daughters, I wanted to share with anybody maybe interested in finding out

maybe, you know, answers to problems they face themselves. There's this theme in it that lessons from the kitchen are kind of applicable everywhere, you know, from the boardroom to everyday life, right? That's been your experience? Cooking for me has never been a job. It's been something I enjoy. Since I was a young boy going to work early in the morning to the kitchens,

I remember I would get there early because for me, arriving to the kitchen early before anybody else got there was, I don't know, was...

It was so special. I used to see a kitchen come to life every single morning. From the moment you go there, like looking like a cave, dark. From the moment you turn on the first lights that you turn the ovens and everything began getting warmer and then everybody began arriving. It's like every day is spring, things coming up. So I spent a lot of time obviously in kitchens and not only in professional kitchens, but also in the kitchen in my house.

And I realized that there's a lot of moments and lessons that even at the time were not maybe meaningful to me because I was young. Or there are stories that kind of stay with me in my memory line of the past. And all of a sudden, as I was growing up, I began giving them making sense of the moment.

even reimagining what my father wanted to tell me, what he told me, you need to control the fire. Sometimes I kind of romanticize the moment, maybe his words in his brain were not so deep. He only was telling me, control the fire or you cannot cook, literally. But then I began trying to imagine and then maybe behind the words of wisdom,

were deeper and deeper and deeper stories. And what does the phrase "mind the fire" mean to you now? Well, you know, this came out of a story is me helping my dad. I will help my mama in the kitchen. Everybody in my house help in the kitchen. My three brothers, myself, my father. But my mom was Monday through Friday. My father was more the weekend cook when more people probably will arrive. Gatherings we will do.

in a near forest or in a park. And my father would cook very often the big pot, the big paella, and I would be always in charge of the fire. One day I got upset because I wanted to do the cooking. I wanted to cook with him. I was

I don't even remember the exact age, but it happened anywhere between my 11, 12, 13 years old. And my father didn't let me do the cooking because it was a very big one. The fire required a lot of support. And no, I need you to concentrate on the fire. I got upset. He sent me away. And then my father told me, you must control the fire. If you don't learn how to control the fire, there's no cooking you can do.

For a cook, a young cook in the making, controlling the fire is everything. I think we all need to find our fire. We need to control it. We need to master it. And then in a way, you can do anything you want with your life. You can do any cooking you want with your life. So I think we are all in this search, obviously, that what is our fire? What keeps us going? And are we able to master that so we can achieve anything we want? In a way, this is the story of controlling the fire.

I was curious, as a cook, you think about individual dishes and you think about the meal, how it all comes together. And I'm wondering, in your other businesses at World Central Kitchen, all your ventures, like how do you balance the focus between dishes and meals, you know, between projects and mission? Or are they not separate for you?

Well, I'm 55 and I'm still a little bit confused of what my role in life is. Like the rest of us. And I think it's okay because if you recognize you are confused sometimes, you keep searching. Maybe it's one of the reasons I turn everybody crazy around me because I try to do so many things. But it's not the number of things I do, it's

It's how diversified the world is in the amount of things you want to be part of. Because I think it's good that you are involved. By being involved doesn't make you an expert, but at the very least you are learning in real time with boots on the ground what happens. When I was a younger cook and I began being the chef of my restaurant and then partner and owner of my own restaurant company, I wish I knew more about business back then. I didn't go to business school.

But then applies to everything else. I am a cook that feeds the few. I always had the interest to be part of it in the many. We all have a talent.

within us that goes beyond what we think of ourselves. In a way, I think everybody is a superhuman. They need to believe it. And they need to see the talents they have. And even talents they have and they don't pride themselves for it can't be a very powerful tool for them.

to make people around them even better. So it's okay to move away from my business domain and began volunteering in a local soup kitchen, which is also food and it's also business in a way. The business of giving opportunity to people that I had known. In the process, they become cooks. Like when I began joining DC Central Kitchen, which is my favorite place.

in America, that they do something as simple as giving people the chance to belong, training them to be cooks, feeding the homeless population, fighting food waste. Oh my God, it's like we need more of this type of NGO that they have the mentality of for-profit. In the process of all of that, uniting the dots, I become better at understanding how

What are the solutions to the problems we face versus blaming and finger pointing to everybody for everything is wrong is involving yourself in everyday life that surrounds you to make obviously your business or your workplace better, to make your street better, to make your neighborhood better.

obviously your family, your friends. In the process, everybody contributing. In order to do that, we don't have to do it, but I see that everybody has that

feeling of doing something, being the coach on your children's game. That's an amazing way to create. It's a lot of ways everybody contributes. Only we need to make sure that all of that is multiplied in such a ways that then the problems stop being problems and become amazing opportunities to keep moving forward. Your fire is as a cook. But as you talk about all this,

I mean, you've got Fyre as a business person, as someone who's trying to sort of use levers to amplify, even though you may not define yourself that way. Well, probably one of the... My company is in a good moment. Still, we are not out of the water completely after COVID. Many, many companies in America, especially in the area I know a little bit more, which is the restaurant company, we went through...

a lot of hardships and you keep looking at the future to make sure that the decisions you keep making today

You make them learning from decisions maybe you made in the past and that you regret you made them before COVID came, for example. So it's all always learning. And that's what I keep doing every day of my life. Along with the book, you also have a new TV show premiering shortly called Yes Chef, right? Co-host is Martha Stewart. It sounds like you two had fun together.

Well, Martha is an amazing human being. My God, it's like so full of energy, so full of wisdom. And was it fun? Oh, it was very fun. And I put my phone away. I'm dedicating myself just to do the show and have time to meet the people. Sometimes I'm realizing that I'm not even having the time. Mm.

to do it right now even with my restaurants because it becomes a very big mountain of more people you have to meet, more people, which is necessary. But this one moment, you are only one person. And I realized that especially this last year, everything is very overwhelmed. So for me, doing the show was a way used to say, I'm going to do the show and I'm going to have fun. And I tried to meet every one of the cameramen. We shot in Toronto, amazing people.

And I met everybody I could. And we played darts. And I kind of went two, three times to amazing restaurants in Toronto. I cook a lot at home because it was cold and snowy every day. And there was raccoons all over the house. And I loved all of that. But this long story was to tell you that I really enjoyed the moment. But the message I realized is that sometimes in the last few years, I've been in the grumpy side more times than I like.

And I realized that has a lot to do with being overwhelmed sometimes, pressure on your shoulders of a lot of things you are living. That is not the fault of anyone. They are all mine because I'm the one that gets into so many things that maybe I don't have to get into so many things. Even I have great people that manage them. I'm only just very lucky that when I open my mouth, things happen or they start happening.

But I realized that sometimes you just breathe in, breathe out, do one thing and put everything you got into the one thing allows you to fulfill and enjoy the moment so much more than when you keep always trying to do a hundred things at once. And this is the big learning from this show. So yeah, I hope the show will do great. I got to know Martha even more. I think we are now even closer.

you need to ask her, but even more friends, we keep texting each other now, was very, very, very special, very emotional because these real people, real 12 chefs that they're going through

their own life issues and restaurant issues. And they go into this competition that is a competition, but it's a quarter million dollar on the line. And in the process, they need to fulfill who they are as a chef, as a person, as a mother, as a father, as a boyfriend. Wow. All these things are going to be part of the show. So yeah, NBC, 28th of April, 10 p.m. After the Boys, 10 episodes. Yes, chef.

When we last talked, it was probably two plus years ago for this show, and you were focused on Ukraine. It was six months after Russia invaded Ukraine. World Central Kitchen was feeding millions of people. You just come back from talking to Zelensky. You were kind of struggling to maintain balance in your life. You felt sort of this weight of others' troubles on you.

Do you feel any lighter today? No. No. No. The last two years and a half, if anything, they've been more brutal, right? You know, it's been more than a year. I didn't go back to Ukraine now, but again, one thing is World Central Kitchen, another thing is Jose Andres. And it's a good thing. Even obviously, I'm very involved with World Central Kitchen. In the last days, we've been able to be delivering

I don't know, up to 100 we are trying to do, but big generators because many of the rural farmers and especially cow milk producers were in lack of electricity.

All the electricity grid has been damaged enormously. Many parts, they have zero electricity and probably will be years before they're repaired. We've been able to deliver those massive generators that will simplify the lives of mill producers. We're doing other things of that sort. We built a kitchen in the north.

in Chernihiv. And so we helped build one kitchen that is feeding, I don't know, up to 10 schools out of that central kitchen. Not close to the front lines, but close enough. I've been supporting an organization that is trying to bring the thousands and thousands of Ukrainian children that they've been taken by Russia. And obviously the efforts of World Central Kitchen, we are not doing the numbers we used to do, but with over 300 million meals, we had

Without a doubt, we were the biggest humanitarian organization in Ukraine, especially the first year and a half. We took over in the first year in ways nobody else was able to do. But it's not good or bad. It's the space we occupy. We are the quick, faster, and we can become very massive if we get the support of the people. Myself, personally, as one more volunteer, I've been in Ukraine. I was in Turkey, in Syria, on the...

On the huge earthquake, everybody told me, you shouldn't go Syria. And probably I was supposed to listen. But it was important for me that I saw with boots on the ground what was going on in Syria. We were able to put a lot of hundreds of thousands of meals every single day to help the people in northern Syria. Between a war, they're forgotten. Imagine. Wars of the wars when you already were in a hole even deeper. So for me, it was important we were there. And there we were.

I've been in other scenarios. I was in Asheville in North Carolina in the mountains every day in a helicopter joining Bulls and Druggies and team and delivering food. I was the same in Valencia where more than 230 people also died in a big flooding that nobody saw coming, where thousands and thousands of homes disappear. Tens of thousands, thousands of businesses were underwater.

And I went there too, because obviously it's the country I come from and I had to be there. Even moments I say, I don't want to do it anymore. I don't have to. I've been doing this 15 years now. And it's a volunteer job. That's a matter. But I have a hard time staying away. I went to Gaza. I went to Lebanon. I went to Egypt. I went to Israel. This last year has been hard, the last almost two years. So you mentioned...

you know, is any more weight? Well, I mean, we began feeding in Israel when Israel was attacked by Hamas. At the same time, we were in Gaza because we had to be in Gaza. Obviously, Gaza became much more massive for us. We reached close to half a million meals a day. We opened almost, we helped support almost 196 kitchens, which was the right thing to do. Putting aside the wars, putting aside the invasions, putting aside

And that's what I've been doing, making sure that the least food gives opportunity and hope to people. This all comes with weight. Obviously, this last year, we lost seven members of Wilson Draghi Chen in a strike by the IDF. And obviously, we're trying to still search for answers. We got some answers, but still, you want more answers on behalf of everybody. And with a very simple idea that

The future of anybody that is fighting with each other is used to live in peace. It can be Russians with Ukrainians, Israelis and Palestinians. It's the same questions from a lot of people. Why? You hear people from Israel that wanted to go to help feed in Palestine, people in Palestine that wanted to go help feed in Israel. I believe it's the silent majority that usually want goodness.

that wants to live in peace. And that's what I obviously try to do personally, building longer tables, seeing people that maybe they were not meant to know each other or that they seem they are at odds with each other, to see that there's much more humanity within every one of them. And that the vast majority of the people, I put my hand on the fire, that that's what they want. What is good for me must be good for you too.

Jose's openness to varied communities runs counter to the what's in it for me vibe these days. So how can turning to others help us thrive as individuals, businesses and countries, especially in a time of increasing volatility? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us. Meet Romeo Regali, a Capital One business customer and chef and CEO of Roz, a plant-based restaurant with two locations in New York.

We started talking about our own restaurant. I don't know if she thought I was serious, but she said, you know, let's just do it. Let's just start our own brand from scratch. Romeo's recalling the moment when he and his wife and co-founder Milka Regali decided to take a leap of faith. I started working as a server at Milka's mom's restaurant. I fell in love so much with the industry, and that's what sparked it.

Romeo and Milka weren't certain how they would bring their dream to fruition. But they were certain of one thing, their passion. We knew we had a vision and we found a space. We had to gut the entire space and build everything from scratch. The kitchen, gas piping, and the restroom, the sound system, everything. We really believed every detail matters.

As they broke ground on their first ROS location, Romeo and Milka soon faced the financial reality of building something from scratch. They looked to Capital One Business to help navigate the fiscal burden of making their dreams come true. We used a Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One. The no preset spending limit really had a big role in helping us finish the project. We're very happy with what we have accomplished. We want to expand more.

To learn more, go to CapitalOne.com slash business cards. Hey, folks. It's no secret that we're living through a time of historic disruption. And in moments of uncertainty, we look to the boldest leaders, the ones who are charting real paths to progress. That's exactly who's taking the stage at this year's Masters of Scale Summit.

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Before the break, chef and World Central Kitchen founder, Jose Andres, previewed his new book, Change the Recipe, and talked about why longer tables, not higher walls, are critical to solving the world's biggest problems. Now he shares lessons about what rules are worth breaking, where he finds hope in the face of crisis, and more. Let's jump back in.

One of the book's key themes is adaptability, right? And for many people, especially today, very volatile. There can be panic. There can be paralysis. How do you center yourself in those moments? And how much do you think adaptability is about sort of temperament versus something we can learn? I think the human DNA of who we are, we are a species that we are highly adaptable.

We are not adaptable with our bodies, meaning evolution happens over hundreds of thousands, millions of years. But our brain can, and our heart can. Our heart, in ways of things that you didn't care, forever. They didn't make you a bad person, but once you find out what something is like, your heart adapts. And we change.

You talk in the book about breaking rules and that you need to break rules to make progress. Yeah. Obviously, that one can be used in many ways. Yeah. Because you could argue that our rules breaking being broken right now in our government. I want to ask you, because you're in favor of rule breaking sometimes to get certain things done. But let me tell you what rule breaking is. What are different kinds of rules? Let me tell you what rule breaking is. It's like when...

You show up somewhere and somebody comes and tells you that you are not needed here. And you're looking around and you are only seeing hunger, destruction. I'm sorry, but, you know, I want to be respectful. But if I see that there's need, we're going to stay here because our...

Our mission is not going to be following your guidance. It's going to be following what the people are telling us. And so this is a way of breaking rules. We were told sometimes in some hurricanes in America that some schools, we couldn't use the kitchens. And the school kitchen was the best kitchen in many kilometers around America.

And it was complicated to navigate through roads and destruction. And even we were told we couldn't use a kitchen. We used a kitchen. We got in trouble. We got in trouble until, oh, you're feeding 2,000 people every day? I think that's a rule that...

I will not even know mine to pay a penalty or even be sent jail. Right, you're okay if you pay a penalty for breaking those rules because the goal is important enough. That's what this breaking the rules means. Sometimes the rules are in your own brain. It's breaking the chains of the own rules that you set on your own.

that don't allow you to do the extra step to make something happen. - Sometimes they're rules then, they're not really rules, you've just taken them as rules. I want to ask you, there's something else you write about in the book, the difference between thinking like software and thinking like hardware. Can you explain what that is? - Obviously, this is one that in emergencies I learned a long time ago. Very often in emergencies, you can hear precedents,

We are positioning military or helicopters or boats or food or MREs or water or ambulances. All of that is hardware. The hardware are tools, things that will allow you to have a good response. Everybody's going to be working on bringing the hardware to ground zero.

A week later, two weeks later, you are still in the business of being a transportation company that you are trying to move hardware from point A to ground zero. All of a sudden, you forgot who you were. Who you were? A feeding organization. Software will allow you to respond to your main mission, which is feeding people on day one. What software is? What do you have around to feed people? Mm-hmm.

what is at your finger points today. Ain't gonna be perfect, ain't gonna be pretty, you're not gonna have logos, it's not gonna be the perfect, clean basket, container to go, maybe tamales in a banana leaf. Because it's the only thing we have. We don't even have forks or knife that allows you to give to somebody a piece of food that actually you can be holding in your hands and you are feeding day one in the heart of Puerto Rico with nothing. So that's the hardware versus software.

Never forget your mission. Never forget what you're there for. For any organization, every organization has to be having very clearly what your mission is to the most simplistic, smaller phrase possible. And never let anybody forget that. If not, your mission becomes something else.

Concentrating on the software will always allow you to be faster and quicker. - As you're talking about technology, I recently did an episode with Mark Lorry, the founder of Wunder. - More Lorry, yeah. - Yes, you know, the food delivery app. I know you've collaborated with Wunder. And Mark talked about how he uses AI to pick all of his meals, like every meal. And he thinks it's one day everybody's gonna do that, and you're even gonna use it at a restaurant to pick your meals for you.

Has he talked to you about this? Have you tried it? Do you think this is a good thing? Anything Mark says, I will support because Mark is one of those amazing brains. I believe he's working on taxis that will lift up in the middle of the cities, planes that will fly us away. I think you've bought the Minnesota, the timber lowers, and so many other things. And obviously, Wander, I know very well. I'm on their board.

The big thing for me in AI is when I tell AI what are the food problems and food solutions that America and planet Earth have.

And AI right now at the best can do is giving you a very good glimpse of all the different situations food is a problem and can be a solution. And it's things people don't even imagine. But food is everything. Food is national security. Food is defense. Food is immigration. Food is science. Food is health. Food is the economy. Food is very much in everything. And we don't even realize. We only have food in planet Earth for around...

Six, seven weeks, no more. I think the number is at the most 90 days. It's the total food that we have stored to feed the 8 billion people on planet Earth. If a major thing will happen at once, and it's been glimpses in the past that we had back-to-back hurricanes in high productive food areas of America, Central America, tornadoes, droughts, pests,

wiping out food production, wiping out cattle, wiping out eggs, wiping out chickens. Imagine if the perfect storm happens. We have enough food to eat in planet Earth. Why we are not finding the way to make sure that those people that are really poor, we distribute that excess of food through better distribution, et cetera. That's the problem now. We have enough, but not everybody is receiving the food.

And we should be solving this problem. I believe it's highly solvable. But we have another problem that is brewing in the back. And I don't think anybody is giving enough attention. That's why I'm asking for a national food security advisor to the president. What happens when we wake up and we say, today is not enough food to feed America?

These are the problems that I hope AI will come up with. So obviously, if Mark is saying this is the way, I will listen to Mark because we need more brains like Mark solving problems. And it doesn't seem we have the people or the experts concentrated in what can become potentially a very big problem not too far away from today. So I want to ask you one last question. Are you optimistic today about America? I am optimistic in the way that...

In life, humans, we learn how to adapt. And we seem sometimes we learn the lessons, even it seems we only learn them short term and we have a short memory. And then we need to go back to the mistakes of the past to remind ourselves that this other is always a better way.

The last issues with tariff happened, what, over a hundred years ago? And I guess nobody is alive that went through the great pains that those tariffs created. Therefore, sometimes you have to go through problems to remind every human how good our life is, how much we have to work to keep improving what doesn't work. But my God, I'm asking everybody,

Go out right now. Walk in your cities. Walk in the countryside. Take a look at the trees with the flowers and the butterflies and the children playing in the campgrounds in poor neighborhoods and in rich neighborhoods. Huge people walking alongside, 50 years married, hand by hand, and just smiling that they spend their lives together. The hospitals, the nurses, the doctors doing the best. Take a look around.

airports that they function in a very amazing way that they don't know how. Things actually work. We humans, we've been building in the last post-World War II a good world, a good world that in America is full of imperfections and that we need to work together to fix them. Of course, but you don't fix them burning everything down. You fix them by recycling.

Coming together to the table, realizing that problems never will be solved by finger pointing. Problems will always be solved sitting down at the table and coming together in how we find common ground. That's the way we build good intent, good empathy, good policy, that then becomes good politics because it's on behalf of all Americans. Of everyone. That's the way we should be doing it. So that's why, in a way, I'm hopeful.

Well, thank you so much for doing this. Your energy, your energy, your spirit may be hard, but your energy is great. Change the recipe. The book's out now.

It's hard not to get caught up in the rhythm and whimsy of Jose's mind. I never know quite where he's going to go next, but I'm never disappointed. At a time where finger-pointing and tribalism is on the rise, it's refreshing to hear how Jose still sees the best in people. He's upbeat about what humanity has the power to achieve if we work together to solve problems. Yet his optimism isn't naive. He's pragmatic, leaning into boots-on-the-ground action.

As we all try to navigate today's volatile climate, let's see if we can't inject at least a little bit of Jose's romance for life along the way. It couldn't hurt, and it might just help. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. ♪

The Lobatical is for any employees who have been with us for five years to take a vacation. They get a week of extra PTO. They get to pick anywhere in the world that they want to travel, and we allow that to happen for them. That's Brooke Wright, Capital One business customer and chief people officer at Local, a change marketing company that works with huge corporations in order to facilitate meaningful communication between C-suites and their frontline.

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Rapid Response is a Wait What original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Troh. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli and Brian Pugh. Theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lital Malad. For more, visit rapidresponseshow.com.