Immaculate Revelations
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G'day and welcome back to Need to Know. I'm one of your co-hosts, Ross Coulter. And without further ado, let me bring in my co-host from across the ditch, Bryce Zabel, who's swanning it somewhere in northern Los Angeles. G'day, Bryce. Welcome back. Hey, it's great to be back on the show. And by the way, damn, a lot can happen a month, you know. It's been so busy.

And yet I keep hearing people, I keep having people say to me, you know, when's something really going to happen? And I'm like, well, I don't know. It's happening as far as I'm concerned. I mean, in the last, since we last saw each other, first of all, we could do an entire podcast, Ross, where all we did is talk about what other people do on their podcast.

Because you're breaking news over at Reality Check and then Weaponized with Knapp and Korbel has broken some news. Jesse Michaels has done it. Joe Rogan has done it. I mean, it's unbelievable. And they're all big stories.

They're huge. I mean, I guess my instinct is to start with Jesse Scoop with Harold Mongrem, which I think is enormously significant. Harold Mongrem, who essentially ended in public service as an ambassador level official in the government, a highly respected public official who worked in four White Houses, four presidents, notably under JFK as a young 27-year-old.

I'm good friends with Pippa Malmgren, who's Harold's daughter. And Pippa came out here to Australia last year and gave me a heads up on what Harold was saying. And I suspect Harold in his final months of his life was enjoying giving Pippa mild coronary infarctions because periodically he would put stuff out on Twitter saying,

that would be just like the most amazing teasers about what he knew from his time working in the White House. And it was quite clear that for Pippa, a lot of this was a revelation. And imagine being a dad going through all of your life or pretty much the bulk of your life and not telling your daughter that you knew something about

about UFOs, UAPs. - You know, I tell my kids, I know something about UFOs and they don't care. So I'm glad that Pippa cared. You know what's so incredible about Malmgren, and we'll get to that,

I feel kind of personally vindicated by his story because, you know, in the Dark Skies TV series, we had in our pilot Majestic 12, JFK's involvement with UFOs, Roswell, and even the Cuban Missile Crisis. And I'm four for four with Malmgren. I mean, this guy has sort of confirmed all the stuff that...

Over the years, people have said, well, of course, you were just dramatizing all that. And I said, well, I don't know. But I mean, if you think about what he has said, is he, well, you interviewed, why don't you tell us what he said? Because you interviewed him. Did you interview him directly? No, I never had the opportunity to interview him. I would have loved to have interviewed him. Unfortunately, he got very sick in his final weeks. And thankfully, Jesse Michaels took the show and he's done very, very well with what he recorded.

The key allegation that leaps out to me from what Harold told Jesse literally in the final days of his life

is that he was directly briefed by Richard Bissell, a notorious figure in the CIA who, at the time he spoke to Harold, was, I think, the deputy director of plans for the CIA, essentially running covert operations for the agency, went on to become the director of operations. And Bissell briefed Harold,

into the fact that there was a legacy retrieval and reverse engineering program. He essentially told Harold that Roswell was real, that they'd recovered craft and biologics, alien beings, bodies,

And Harold, to have somebody of Harold's stature going on the record saying this, I know there'll be the usual bleats from the debunkers in the cheap seats basically saying, "Oh, you know, all it is is somebody saying something." This is somebody of great stature, somebody of renown in the US diplomatic establishment.

a person who worked with distinction from multiple governments, including the French government of, I think, Giscard d'Estaing and the Tanaka Japanese government in the years after his service in the White House, a man who was respected on the world stage, not given to inflammatory consequences.

And this is Harold Mongrem basically saying that he was aware from Operation Blue Girl, which is the story you and I have told before and discussed before, which involved the explosion of an X-ray emitting thermonuclear device in the upper atmosphere, which allegedly knocked out.

a UFO, an alien craft. And as my good friend Jeff Cruickshank, an Australian former intelligence official, has explained to me, there is video, film recorded by the Department of Energy, which has been publicly released, which shows this object falling from the thermonuclear mushroom cloud.

It literally was an electromagnetic pulse that knocked out a large part of the Pacific. And as was discovered, apparently many years earlier, they realized that the X-rays from these devices can essentially knock out non-human craft. And that's the technique that the US has been using allegedly to darn craft since. But Harold says he, as a result of him touching actually at

at one stage, touching some of this technology that was recovered from the Bluegill Downing technology, which, by the way, he says, spoke to him inside his head in some way. He felt a connection. He was briefed into the existence of the program by Richard Bissell, who essentially was one of the senior CIA officials. And Bryce, you'll love this. One of the senior CIA officials whom I suspect was

had a hand in the eventual slaying of JFK with Alan Dulles. Let's ignore the ongoing deceit with the somewhat fruitless release of JFK archives. It's quite clear that the archives are never going to reveal what a lot of people suspect and which Harold Mongrem gave some currency to, that there is a link between the UFO issue

And the murder of JFK in a state-sponsored conspiracy. I mean, okay, that's quite a mouthful. The one thing I want to make sure that people understand out of this is Malmgren, in this interview that they can watch on YouTube with Jesse Michaels...

It's him. He's physically there talking to Michaels. I believe Malmgren died in February and this was recorded shortly before he passed. This is the essence of deathbed testimony. In courts of law, deathbed testimony actually matters.

I think when people look at Malmgren talking about this with Jesse Michaels, you have to say to yourself, "Okay, this man doesn't have much time left and he's quite aware of that. And yet he's decided to say all these things." So did he come up with, at whatever age he was, this long list of lies that he was going to tell?

on his deathbed, that's not usually how it works. Usually on their deathbed, people come clean with the things that they've done or that they know. And that's clearly what he's trying to do. He's trying to move this forward and get us off where we were. And in addition, I'm not sure if you mentioned this, but he did say that

That he actually had handled this material, and he also said in his final hours, I believe, that he was shown a video of the, quote, soul-surviving extraterrestrial being, which was from Roswell.

So he handled material, he saw and heard about the biologics, and he also saw a film of an existing living creature at the time. These are pretty profound things to say. And also, again, as I said,

because I based a movie and a TV series on the actual existence of Majestic 12. And for years, people have been saying, well, of course, that was all just you just going with those documents that I hear. You know, they've all been discredited now.

Well, according to Malmgren, they sure weren't discredited. He said that they had tracked him from a very young age. In other words, which, by the way, is exactly what happened in Dark Skies. There's a young guy who was tracked by Majestic 12 and ends up getting recruited into the organization. But this is the first time, in my understanding, that anybody of that caliber has ever talked about it. Now, Stanton Friedman, the researcher who we both know,

He took the position very strongly that the Majestic 12 documents were real. And he also took the position that it had actively worked for a number of years. But again, he was a researcher. Malmgren, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he the first researcher

Big guy to say Majestic 12 out loud. Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I'm shocked that he said that. It was like in his final weeks he just basically did a word vomit of everything that he knew. I'm more fascinated with the fact that Pippa, who's a good friend,

uh didn't know any of this and that her dad was increasingly dropping these truth bombs on social media he discovered twitter as an elderly man in his dotage and uh enjoyed dropping all these truth bombs on social media and good on good on jesse for getting him in time and and and compassionately as possible uh securing the interview that allowed harold's words to be left um after his death

It is tragic that he died when he did because wouldn't it have been lovely to get him to give evidence as one of the witnesses in the recent hearing that came up before Congress, before the House Oversight Committee hearing just last week? I mean, wouldn't it have been wonderful to see him cross-examined by Burleson or Anna Paulina Luna? A great tragedy and I think, frankly, also...

Harold was reflective, I think, of an era of American foreign policy and public service that, frankly, is gone. Non-politicized, deeply, deeply intellectual human being.

When you look at his credentials and you look at what he said, it's impossible to reach any other conclusion than this is a man who was speaking honorably, revealing what he knew as quickly as he possibly could in the final weeks of his life. And I noticed the debunkers, the usual people who throw the insults from the cheap seats, you know, they've tried. They've tried to suggest, oh, you know, this is just Harold Monger saying this. This is just his claims.

The simple fact is they haven't been able to lay a dent in what he's asserted. And they do what they normally do, which is to essentially choose to ignore what I think is some of the most powerful and persuasive evidence that has to date been released. Crucially, what Harold revealed was that a lot of this is buried and was buried in the Department of Energy. Harold had a few clearance because he'd worked around the issue of nuclear weapons.

And it was through the fact that he had acute clearance that he became aware of the Bluegill test in the Pacific at near Johnson Atoll. And as a result of that, the alleged recovery of the craft during the Bluegill operation.

And for me, it's also a vindication for my Australian colleague, Jeff Cruikshank, who I know spoke directly with Harold last year when he was doing his research, when he was talking to me about what he pieced together about Bluegill. It's fascinating, you know, Bryce, because you've got one arm of the government that released the video. I think it came from Los Alamos National Laboratories.

And you've got the other arm now claiming, and they've said this to Jeff, that they can't find their copy of a film where the object was seen to fall from the thermonuclear blast. It really does stretch credibility that the Department of Energy can maintain a line like that. They've somehow lost a crucial piece of evidence that reported the downing of what we now know from Harold Milgram to be the downing of an alien spacecraft.

Losing evidence is nothing new. Remember when the government announced it was going to go look into Roswell for a report in the '90s, they found out that all the files for two years during the period of Roswell and after it were, oh, they were missing. Oh, well, nothing to see here.

Evidence doesn't go missing just by accident, usually. The other couple of quick thoughts. His interview is gold and nothing Ross and I can say here. We'll be able to lay it out as much as hearing him. So we do encourage you to listen to the whole darn thing with Jesse Kornbush.

because it's really profound. And also you get a chance to look at the guy's eyes. You can evaluate for yourself whether you think he's telling the truth. I've looked at it a couple of times now, and boy, it sure seems authentic to me, but

It does also make me think about something. For years, I worked with Stanton Friedman and Don Schmidt on... I had optioned both their books about Roswell and I was developing a film. And the one thing that Don Schmidt said over and over that really applies here is he always felt like they were racing The Undertaker with Roswell. That the idea was there were

men and women who knew things and they were aging out and that every day that you didn't get them, you know, on tape or on the record or whatever was a loss. And the gold standard of that, of course, as you know, Ross, is to get audio and video. Yeah.

that you can actually understand that's clean and simple. And that's exactly what Jesse has done. So, you know, I commend him for doing that. And it was really fantastic. But it does raise one question for me. We talk about Bluegill. And I believe in 1962, that's when they did the atomic test. And as you said, they knocked a UFO out of the sky.

And they said, apparently, oh, that's an interesting thing. So apparently if we do this, we'll knock UFOs out of the sky. So let's keep doing that, which would lead to some of the crash retrieval stories we've heard. But my only question is, is that risky? I mean...

Did they know something that would have caused them to say, let's knock as many of these out of the sky as we can? Or was it a calculated risk to say, well, let's get as much technology in-house as we can so we can reverse engineer it? I mean, it just sounds like an incredible... I mean, we know that people back in the 60s were, you know, this is Cuban missile time. So there's a lot of people taking a lot of risk with the security of the world. But that seems like as big a risk to me. What about you?

I agree. I mean, we're talking here about 63 years now since that test where the object was brought down by the X-ray spallation, as apparently it's called. And if the United States has known that capability to down non-human craft in the past 60 years,

Imagine what the number of craft must be that have been recovered. I mean, we know from my interview with Jake Barber that Jake Barber acknowledged that electromagnetic pulse weapons have been used to down these craft. You know, what we're talking about here is the United States acting offensively against a non-human intelligence for first contact.

And where is the public debate about that? I mean, that's the implication to me from all of this is, is it possible that the very first thing that we barbaric, primitive, slightly developed apes have done in our efforts to connect with a non-human intelligence, the very first thing we've done is discover that we can actually down their craft and secure their technology to

What does it do? What are the implications of that ethically, legally, politically?

And in terms of policy for the human race, if it turns out that we have in fact acted offensively against a non-human intelligence, this is what's not being discussed. And I think this is one of the things that lies at the deep, dark, sordid, corrupt heart of the legacy retrieval program. They don't want to have to admit the things that have been done in the name of national security.

That's the tragedy. And I think that's why it's so important to acknowledge what Harold Mongren raised and the implications of that have ramifications today that are still being explored because the allegation from Jake Barber is that there is this range where the United States is and has long been retrieving non-human information.

What non-humans are going to the same location over and over if they're getting shot down, though? This is where some of the logic of it, I just go, I want to understand this and I don't quite, I would get if they're being seen globally that we figure out how to do this on a global basis and we're getting lucky once in a while, but actually go to the range. Now, you talked to Barbara, so obviously you discussed that. Why, we

We know why Barbara goes to the range. He's got the opportunity to retrieve and that kind of thing. But why would non-human intelligence go to the same place?

Great question. I mean, why do they show up when Skywatcher does its dog whistle and its psionic summoning? We know, actually, that's another thing that's developed in the weeks since you and I Laugh spoke is Skywatcher released its second video, and they revealed that they have obtained images of a jellyfish and a manta ray and tic-tacs and eagles.

So they are getting multiple different types of craft. I think they've said that they've got nine different types of craft that they have identified. And one of the things that Baba made very clear in an interview with me was that they have no intention of acting offensively against these craft, these objects. If they do manage to encourage one to land, they would do it peacefully.

And in fact, he's been at pains to distinguish what they're doing from anything that the U.S. government and private aerospace have been doing in the black. I'm curious, though, did he say how they were

giving that information to this NHI that they were trying a different approach in the government and they wanted to act in peace, whereas the government was shooting them down? Did that come up? Very good question. One thing they do do is they meditate and they have a sort of an oath that they do before each event.

He told me that there's literally a kind of, I think he said it was a 500 word oath that they do where they essentially undertake to operate morally and with a degree of ethical behavior. I think that's because they've actually recognized that they have to be perceived by the phenomenon in a way that is positive. Have you seen this oath yourself?

I haven't seen the oath. No, I've only had it described to me and I'm hoping to get more details on it in the coming weeks. You know how we read the Wilson Davis memo that one time? I think if you ever get your hands on that oath, we should do a dramatic interp of it because I'd love to be curious. I'd love to. You know, I'm interested. How do you talk to someone who's not like you?

and convey, you know, how do you get your head in that space? Listen, just to wrap Malmgren up very quickly, I just was going through my notes here. He was 89 when he gave that interview. So let's face it, at 89, when you're not in the world's greatest health and you feel

you know, the grim reaper around the door, you're, you're not usually making up grand plans, um, of fabrication. You're usually trying to get good with your creator if you believe in that. So I, I don't, I, I, I'd really think that you got to give him that deathbed confession credit. Also something that I thought was fascinating is, and again, you, you said you were friends with Pip, it's Pippa, right? Uh, Pippa, mom, the daughter. Um,

I believe that she's the one that said that. She said that Bissell, who you were talking about Richard Bissell, had told her dad, and this is back in early 60s when he was like some 27-year-old bright, shining, rising star in the Kennedy administration, a guy who was literally in the situation room during the Cuban Missile Crisis. And Bissell told him, and this is the quote that I saw,

He was telling him a lot of what he told him that you've already gone over. He said, because you'll need to pass it along in the future at the right time. And that meant that that Malmgren kept that in his head until he perceived the right time was 2025.

24 and 25, uh, when he knew that his life force was a spent thing. And, uh, I take him very credibly. I hope people will listen to that, but you know, listen, Ross, there is one other story though. Well, there's several, there's so many things you just threw out the, um,

You know, the Jake Barber update. I mean, there's updates every time you turn around these days, there's an update. The one that really got my attention in the last week, and I know that you've also been reporting on this, was the one that came out of Weaponized with George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell when they interviewed Matthew Brown. And for people who...

don't think that rings a bell as a name. He was the once anonymous whistleblower, right behind the report, uh, that was detailing immaculate constellation, uh, which was an unacknowledged special access program task with, uh,

tracking advanced craft to both human and non-human origin and he came forward publicly on their show on tape for the first time and you know he had said he had been driven by a sense of duty and a desire to encourage others to come forward and and do the same and he you know i i think um

What he had to say was fascinating. But since you had covered him, I believe you covered this on your reality check podcast on News Nation. So I'll let you take that one and run with it if you want. This episode is brought to you by Indeed.

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Sure. Well, Matthew Brown is, I think he's most recently been a State Department employee. And that explains what I told you a few months ago. I'd actually been in touch with Mr. Brown last year. And I was aware that he was in

to get his DOPSA, his Defence Office Pre-Publication Security Review, through the State Department. And a lot of people were wondering why the Immaculate Constellation document, when it was tendered into the Congress, was talking about somebody having a State Department DOPSA approval. And I don't think they realised the significance of that. That explains why Matthew Brown was where he was at the time.

But what he's saying is that when he was working for defence in years previously, he became privy to the videos and other data, other documents that were on the JWIC's highly secure, highly classified and compartmentalised secure communication system inside the Pentagon.

And he was working, my understanding is on nuclear nonproliferation issues, WMD, weapons of mass destruction issues in his role with state. And I might have also been in the Defense Department. But in the course of that work, he became aware of the videos that were on the J-WIC system. And there's one in particular that he describes.

which I find quite fascinating. And I think its significance has been underplayed by people to date. He describes seeing what appears to be a surface, ocean surface level video of a giant black triangular craft with no visible means of propulsion hovering over what is clearly a Russian military naval vessel.

And it's striking to him, as he observed it, that the Russians do not appear to be surprised at all by the object overhead.

And it's interesting because that underlines what I'm being told by people privately in the legacy program, that there is a really grave concern right now that we are being left behind, that the United States and its Five Eyes allies, including Australia, where I live, are being left behind by advancements with non-human technology by the Russians and

and the Chinese, and that maybe this photo is indicative of that. If the Russians were not surprised by that craft overhead, did it imply some kind of collusion or cooperation between the Russians and whoever was piloting that craft?

On the basis of what he saw in the documents in the Defense Department and the videos, Mr. Brown was able to form the view that formed the basis essentially for the Immaculate Constellation document that he put to the Congress.

He was able to show that Immaculate Constellation was a highly classified special access program code name that was brought in after Lou Elizondo publicly revealed the OSAP AATIP code name program for the investigation of UAPs.

And I think what is most striking from Mr. Brown's revelations is the fact that on the JWIC's communication servers, it was very commonly and openly discussed that there were these sightings of UAPs that the people were aware of. And there were numerous incidents that were basically being recorded by the United States and stored on military computers for essentially a large number of people with top secret SCI clearances to see.

And it really does beg the question, what more does Mr. Brown know? Because this first of the weaponized interviews was more of a sort of a general assertions interview. I'm really more interested now to know what Matthew's going to be saying in his second interview that George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell will be airing, hopefully with him in coming weeks. And hopefully then we'll get some of the specifics of what he alleges.

I'm looking forward to that very much myself. It's very interesting. I just want to clarify something.

He apparently called this a chance discovery that he had made, that he was, I guess, he found this misfiled document under something called 2018 Schriever War Games. And of course, Schriever is the base that got turned into a space base back in, I think, 2018, the Space Force base. And he was on the Pentagon shared server, and he saw this phrase, immaculate constellation, and he...

It had 12 to 15 slides on it, as at least as I think I'm piecing this together. And rather than a video that showed what you were talking about, I believe it was a photo that looked like it had been taken from water level. So submarine, probably ours, right? And that's where it showed what you described, the black triangle, the Russians. And they had a description that went with one of those slides, that slide rather, that showed that, that said they must have been

obviously watching, gathering intelligence for a while. I'm talking about the Americans. And they came to the conclusion that the Russians weren't seeming to act in any way, which raises the question,

If they were expecting it, was it theirs? Was the black triangle their black triangle? Or are they in cahoots with somebody else who has black triangles and flies them around the world? I wasn't clear on that. Nobody is. No, you're quite right. And that's why I'm saying I think it is possible that what this is,

is evidence that leads to the suggestion that the United States is, as I'm being told it is, being overtaken by China and Russia in the development of this technology because of the ridiculous over-secrecy, over-compartimentalisation.

So we're going to get like 14 more slides discussed by somebody. Somebody soon is going to be on the other side of Matthew saying, okay, slide three, slide four. I mean, I can't wait. A couple of quotes I just want to put out that I sort of pulled out of some of these interviews.

When he was asked about, you know, is it a global monetary cabal, which, by the way, cabal is actually a phrase that Lou Elizondo has used. He used it on our show to say that what he thought was behind this cover up. But he said this. This is Matthew talking now and Matthew Brown. He said, I think we have to go above that, too, to start to explain the level of deception and the level of commitment they've had to maintaining that deception.

It's above just monetary gain and power. And here's the part that I reacted to. It's two words. Well, actually, it's three if you count the contraction. He said, they're afraid. Okay. Afraid. Well, I get afraid sometimes. To be honest with you, knowing a little bit about what we know about makes me afraid sometimes. But these guys know even more, and they were afraid. I think they're afraid of disclosure. I think they're frightened of being caught.

And what's interesting here is his admission in that statement that this is an internationalist cabal. It's above the nation state. And that's what I've been told. This is the problem, that the United States has actually lost control of something that apparently was handed across to private aerospace companies at the very latest, I think, in the 1970s by Nixon.

And that essentially these companies take the view that in the last 50 years, they've spent many, many, many millions, perhaps billions of dollars on trying to reverse engineer this technology and that it's none of the US's or the public's business to know what they've done with it.

And so you've got this ridiculous situation where you have highly advanced technology gifted to private corporations that are now operating outside the nation state, outside the priorities of the National Security Alliance that you and I are part of, the Five Eyes Alliance.

Is it compromised? Are there compromises along the way? Have there deals being done with the Russians and the Chinese? Are these aerospace companies that have been given this technology in some way prejudicing the interests of the rest of the planet?

I mean, we are actually now at a really interesting point in human history where, I mean, as usual, the lamestream mainstream media continues to ignore this story. It's almost had no coverage anywhere apart from on News Nation, the Daily Mail, Chris Sharpe's Liberation Times and George Knapp's own network, which is part of the News Nation network.

Frankly, the issue is not being covered by most of the media and it blooming well should be. I mean, this is really serious stuff. You've got Harold Mongrum alleging a conspiracy that goes back 63 years to 1962. You've got Matthew Brown coming forward and essentially confirming that what he saw in the JWIC servers was a document that verified the existence of a special access program called Immaculate Constellation.

and verified photographs and videos of imagery of UAPs that are known about by the United States.

You've got the continuing lies and deceit by the former members of Arrow, Tim Phillips and Sean Kirkpatrick, who are doing their level best to put down poison to try and discourage the public from taking this seriously. And full marks, by the way, Bryce, I just want to acknowledge here Dr. John Kozlowski, the serving head of Arrow. He did an interview, I noticed, I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but he did an interview this week with PBS.com.

the public broadcasting service, which I think is your publicly funded broadcaster in the United States.

Yeah, well, for a few more weeks at least. And he basically conceded that there are genuine, authentic, anomalous mysteries there that are worthy of investigation. And I think that's a huge step forward. And all credit to Dr. John Kozlowski for having the guts to actually do that in light of what I'm sure is a determined pushback from inside the Pentagon. Hear, hear. I mean, we criticize when criticism is necessary, right?

And we should also applaud when people are doing the right thing. It sure sounded like he was doing the right thing there and I hope he keeps doing more of it. Just a couple of quick other things on Matthew Brown. He was talking about what you were just talking about and he said, "The secrecy that has been defended is at the cost of, in my mind, human dignity, freedom, and progress. It is no longer permissible or acceptable in my mind to continue this course.

to deprive another generation, not just of Americans, but of humanity, of their birthright to know who they are, where they came from, and what's with us. Boy, I mean, I really loved hearing that from him. And I just wanted to also throw one other thing on the fire here because

Ross, you were the guy that broke the David Grush story two years ago. And it's never, you know, it was the, I don't know, other than, say, Lou Elizondo in 2017, this was the fire that started burning. And it was very interesting because Brown talked about it.

And he said that David Grush was considered radioactive. That was in quotes within these classified chat rooms of the intelligence community's secure network. And he said, and this is his quote about it. He said his, David Grush's name was absolutely from firsthand experience, sort of radioactive in the chat rooms. And suddenly all these people that never participate are really slamming him and slamming the people talking about him.

The more people like that slam a guy, the more I believe him. I always believed David Grush. I think he's a man of honor and decency. And I think if they're trying to diminish him, there's obviously a reason behind it. But I have another one of these questions for us. If all this is going down...

And the United States, you have to... I know you don't live in the United States, but you read all the papers and everything. And again, people don't send me email and comments about we're trashing anybody. I'm just acknowledging reality. Things are in the air in the United States. And that involves how we deal with a lot of things, whether it's classified information or taxes or anything. There's just a lot in...

being decided right now. And one of the things that Richard Dolan always said when he and I were writing After Disclosure is he said, when things are more chaotic in the public sphere, that that's the kind of energy that sort of favors disclosure.

And so I'm kind of wondering whether Trump intends it or not. The conditions are being created where, and again, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anybody, but it's very clear that a lot of America's allies and our adversaries are having a lot of thoughts about America, what with the tariffs and talking about,

You know, Canada is the 51st state and taking Greenland and think all the there's just the stuff. There's a milieu of things that people are talking about. Is it possible that one of these spurned allies or even a spurned adversary says this is the time?

And instead of letting America do it, we all know America led the secrecy for 80 years, but that doesn't mean they get to be the disclosure king. Is it possible somebody else is looking at these conditions, Ross, and saying, yeah, let's go first?

What better way to undermine the credibility of an America that has grounded itself as a nation of freedom, democracy, openness and transparency than for, say, Vladimir Putin in Russia or President Xi in China?

to actually go public and say, ladies and gentlemen, it is China, it is Russia that is going to tell you the truth. We have been slurred by America and accused of being the authoritarian regime, but it is America that has been hiding these dark secrets for all of these years, spending public money on a massive project that it has concealed illegally from the Congress.

You know, it would be an enormous propaganda coup for either Putin or Xi to do that. And I'm surprised they haven't today because I am assured that the Russians and the Chinese have their own equivalent program. And the large part of the reason why it's been kept secret for the last 60 years is because they've all been competing for the retrieval of technologies. I'm told

There have been overseas retrievals by US military teams.

And I think that that is very significant because at times those have been done in competition with rival foreign adversary nations. That's the significance of what is going on here. And if you remember, Bryce, David Grush spoke to me in 2023 about a secret cold war going on over the retrieval of non-human technology.

And so now we've got David in the office of Representative Eric Burleson, who is taking, as you would have noticed, an extremely aggressive role in asking some very hard questions. It was Representative Burleson, commendably, who this week when Dr. Eric Davis was sitting in the chair under cross-examination by the Oversight Committee,

It was Eric Burleson who extracted from Eric Davis the quite incredible series of assertions when he was asking him about what kind of alien species are involved in these craft. And Eric Davis, without batting an eyelid, he talked about greys, he talked about Nordics, and he talked about reptilians and insectoids.

bang, four alleged alien species named in the Congress. I mean, it's quite extraordinary. And I think a lot is happening behind the scenes in Eric Burleson's office. I can tell you, I know a lot more than I'm able to reveal publicly. David Grush is having a lot of fun and there is much, much more to come. By the way, first of all,

I'm your friend. I'm your partner. I'm on your side there. But I will say the comments always, every time you say something like that, there's a bunch of comments under the YouTube anyway, where people are like, well, if he knows all these things, why doesn't he just tell us now? Now, I know the answer to that, but I kind of want, I think it always bears repeating. There are two things that bear repeating in our show. The first is we are analysts and commentators and we are not trying to be, you know, political experts.

hit squads for anybody. That's just not our obsession here. We are really just trying to say, if we talked about Biden, it was about what was his policy. If we're talking about Trump, we're saying, what's his policy? So there's that always needs to be said. But the second part is, why don't journalists just tell everybody everything they know as soon as they know it? Which I don't think is a good policy, but you're a commendable journalist. What's your story?

Okay. Well, a large part of it is because we don't want to compromise things that ought not to be compromised. I mean, a lot of people see the UFO, UAP issue as just entertainment.

And they think that you and I here are here just to entertain them and to give them all the information. And they'll be the judge about what they're allowed to know and not allowed to know. And I take my obligations as a journalist very, very seriously. If somebody tells me, look, Ross, you can safely talk about this, but if you actually reveal...

times, dates, locations and places, you could actually compromise the safety of US military or intelligence personnel. I'm going to listen to that. I'm not about to do anything that's going to jeopardise the safety of good men and women who are serving their country, even if they're serving their country in a program that is covert.

There are a lot of people who seem to take the view that we have an obligation just to basically spew out all and be reckless in how we do it. That's not how I operate. And if you don't like that, go somewhere else. The bottom line is I'm not here to entertain you. I'm here to responsibly report on the issue as carefully as I possibly can do.

The other thing, the other reason too, is because at times I'm aware because I talk to a wide range of people of ongoing investigations into allegations pertaining to UAPs and I don't want to compromise those ongoing investigations. It is my hope that witnesses will soon be brought before the Congress. There is, by the way, talk of a new witness coming before the Congress. That's exciting. And let's hope that that happens very, very soon.

While we're on the subject of new witnesses, Bryce, and seeing we're following this theme at the moment, just recently there's been interesting revelations from a former very senior NASA flight surgeon called Dr. Gregory Rogers, who was the chief flight surgeon and Air Force major with NASA.

And he's given some quite extraordinary evidence, obviously still very much hearsay, but basically claiming that he was taken into a room by an officer colleague. And he was essentially shown video, shown security footage by another Air Force major in 1992, which was essentially, he believes, closed circuit TV of an exotic craft with obviously no visible means of propulsion.

levitating in a hangar that had U.S. Air Force markings on the side. And it's frustrating because his evidence isn't corroborated. He can't remember the name of the major that showed him. He's pretty vague on some of the details. And I think that does tend to undermine to some degree the effectiveness of his story.

But in what I was able to read and see, he does come across very credibly. And the fact of a NASA flight surgeon, somebody saying, as he's also done, that he was in touch with multiple astronauts who told him what Edgar Mitchell told my friend, the spaceman, which is that they were aware of their craft, their Apollo moon missions or some of their shuttle missions being followed in space during their time in orbit.

And it's really interesting to hear this counter story from somebody who's been at a pretty high level in NASA saying what Dr. Gregory Rogers is saying. And all credit to him for having the courage and the motives to come out as he's done, because he's basically saying he hopes that his coming out will encourage others to come forward.

You know, the truth of the matter is there's probably dozens, if not hundreds, of former and current NASA employees that would like to talk about this. And someday those floodgates will open. Back when I was running the TV Academy, I got invited to a party at Buzz Aldrin's penthouse.

here in Los Angeles. And I remember standing in the kitchen with Buzz Aldrin and I thought, okay, you know, I could just tell him now when I was a kid, I loved seeing the moon landing and all that. But instead I said, so this UFO thing. And, you know, he didn't confirm or deny anything, but he just had that kind of

that kind of look on his face where it's like, you know, I can't go there. They're not going to let me go there. And I think he said, can I get you another drink or something? You know, but we just know that there's a lot of them and you know, this new witness, I can't wait for a new witness. I'm sure Grush has probably been all over that one as well. And, you know, in just the last few minutes, we sort of jumped through my list at the beginning, which is a good thing. Um,

Because, yes, there were congressional hearings during this last month as well that had a lot of fireworks in them. Lou Elizondo got himself in a bit of a hot seat because he showed a photo, as I understand it, that looked like that he had been given by a pilot, I believe, that very morning. And he showed it as if it was something that obviously should be looked into. And it turned out to be something that was just a crop photo.

circle, not a crop circle, but a circle of crops in the countryside. Do you know any more about...

And rather than just back down, Lou, it seems like has said on X that, hey, I got nothing to apologize for. My point that I'm trying to make to people is there's no good place to go report anything. So this pilot that gave me this photo in the morning, he has no place to go. So he gives it to me. I shouldn't be getting it. Some official group should be getting it. So basically, it sounds like he's calling for a new blue book or something where at least...

If my next door neighbor sees a UFO while they're on vacation, they don't know who to talk to. They're going to come over to my house and go, well, you got a podcast. Here's what I saw. But that's not a really good way to get to the bottom of things, I don't believe. And so we need a better way to do it. So I guess the question I'm having right now is, let's say...

the average person, they don't have to be in the United States, any place, I guess, but they see something they can't explain, it's certainly anomalous, and they'd like to go on the record with it. Who currently do you think they should be in contact with?

Well, I wouldn't take it to Arrow. I wouldn't take it to the Pentagon's UFO investigation office. And I think Lou has a point that we have a problem at the moment, that the Arrow, I admire Dr. John Kozlowski and I'm hearing good things about him from people on the inside. But he's constrained by those in the Pentagon higher up who frankly don't want this story told. And I think all they're doing at the moment is butt covering. There's no good reason for this story not to be told.

So a lot of people are essentially waiting for leadership from the Trump administration. And one thing I do want to record, Bryce, as it goes through the gate is that just in the last few weeks, you've seen the departure of Mike Waltz's National Security Council advisor. And you've seen the temporary, at least, placement of Marco Rubio, Senator Marco Rubio, Secretary of State.

now wearing the other hat as National Security Advisor to President Trump. It's a huge escalation of the access to secure confidential information that Marco Rubio is going to get.

And if you consider the outspokenness of Nash Patel and the FBI, who I know has sanctioned a secret FBI investigation, which is still ongoing into the concerns of illegality and criminality involving the UAP issue. Watch out gatekeepers, the FBI is on your tail. Then you're talking about Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence. She's been particularly outspoken on getting to the truth of the UAP issue.

And now you've got Senator Marco Rubio as National Security Council advisor to the president. All we're waiting to see now is what Donald Trump chooses to do, because as you and I have discussed before, Donald Trump has conspicuously not issued an executive order for the declassification of UAP files, something that he inferentially suggested he was minded to do during the election campaign.

Has something changed his mind or has he been distracted by other priorities? I'm told it's the latter and I am told to be patient and that we will soon see some changes in policy from the Trump administration on the UAP issue. We'll start seeing some action.

I certainly hope that's the case, but I do think the appointment of Senator Marco Rubio to the very highest levels of security advice to the president is a very important breakthrough because I'm told that whenever a national security advisor is appointed, it is routine for the national security advisor at the very least to be briefed into what the government does secretly know about the UAP program.

So hopefully by now, Marco Rubio is or soon to be read into the program. And at that point, we will then know what he and hopefully President Trump decide to do about it.

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I mean...

Just recall that it was Rubio when he was a senator who was, as you said, so outspoken. And one of his more famous comments was, I actually hope it is Russia or China because at least, you know, I can deal with. Well, no, actually, he said, I actually hope it's non-human intelligence, which was a weird statement.

Because if it's Russia or China, they're so far ahead of us and they're our adversaries. So he does have his head in the right place. And as for, by the way, what's on Trump's mind or whatever...

We are in a time of, I guess, the phrase, the word I would use is volatility. And while that may lead to the conditions that make disclosure more likely than less, from a political point of view, I would assume in any administration, you'd sort of like these first hundred days to die down a little bit before you open up. I mean, let's face it, once you open up the non-human intelligence basket, you know, that's going to pretty much go to the head of the class.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm told, I want to emphasise this, I am told by reasonably senior people in the new administration, the Trump administration, that they are determined to get to the truth of the UAP issue. I don't think they see the Oversight Committee as the vehicle for doing that. I think that what we're seeing is, I mean, I'm told and I'm aware of it because I've spoken to some of the people involved in it. There is this ongoing FBI investigation that's been operating for some time and

And the other thing I think also that we should possibly put on the record, Bryce, if we're essentially trying to keep a chronological narrative of important things that have gone through the gate in the last few weeks,

I think it's very, very important that we acknowledge the CBS 60 Minutes story, which essentially acknowledged the untruth of the claim that the White House put out after the new administration came in, that the drones so-called reported over New Jersey and the East Coast and other parts of the USA were FAA-authorized.

We now know definitively they were not FAA-authorized. And we now know from Senator Roger Wecker, who is the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, in his interview of 60 Minutes, that there in fact remains mystification. The Defense Department and the intelligence community, he has been told, are still mystified as to what those drones were. And keep an eye out, by the way, for the disinformation narrative that is beginning to creep in.

I notice it's being peddled by some of the lame debunkers in the cheap seats who are basically, I'm sure, pushing a narrative provided to them by the Pentagon. I wonder if they're paid for that role. We should ask.

But anyway, these people are basically pushing the narrative that essentially the public were all confused, that it was a mass delusion and that essentially what was being seen over New Jersey and large parts of the East Coast were in fact just light planes and the public was getting hysterical.

Anyone, including the Skywatcher team, Jake Barber has said this publicly, knows that this is a completely implausible explanation for the phenomenon that was and is still being seen over New Jersey. I've spoken to people in the last few days who have assured me that they are still seeing these anomalous supposed drone objects flying.

which are hovering for implausibly long periods, sometimes seven or eight hours, far longer than a normal drone operating even on petrol power. These objects are soundless. They're displaying weird light patterns and they are moving anomalously over the areas.

They are not explained by the United States government. And we now know from a hearing that took place in the Congress just a couple of weeks ago that there is no explanation from NORTHCOM, from the Northern Command of the US Air Force, for what these objects are. They are genuinely mystified. This is a national security concern.

So the public has been fed a lie by a statement made, sadly, by the White House, where the White House spokeswoman, Carolyn Leavitt, basically came out with the statement that these objects were FAA authorised.

The FAA has made it abundantly clear they were not authorised. I would like to know where that statement came from and why there was such a clear, obvious attempt to mislead the president and to allow the presidential spokeswoman to be putting out a statement that was so egregiously misleading and wrong.

Hear, hear. I would like to hear that too. You know, this is the story with the greatest power. I was at a dinner party last night and the person who was throwing the party sort of took me aside and said, hey, you know, this drone thing, I mean, it's all...

It's not right. What's going on? They really want to know because they don't buy what they're being told about it. It just seems too nonsensical. And you've laid that out pretty well. So, um, but something else I just wanted to get in before closing here was, um, I was listening to my pal, Richard Dolan's latest episode. Uh, I guess I listened to a lot of podcasts this week. Um,

But he said at the beginning, and this is his quote, the density of new information seems unprecedented. And I kind of agree with that. As I think we've laid out in this episode, we haven't been able to even touch all the stuff that is really coming out. And he said it was unprecedented in terms of the quantity and the quality of what's coming out. And Richard has always been, what would I say, cautious about the information.

the, the inevitability, if you will, of some kind of disclosure about what's going on with the UFO UAP issue. And he now says there's a, an accelerating process. He said, watch out for the pushback, but did think it was accelerating. And again, I will put the, the phrase out that we used in our book. We always thought that disclosure was,

was impossible and yet inevitable. It's just one of those things. It can't happen, and yet it will happen. So I find that to be very interesting, and we do live in interesting times.

I don't think we should go today without recording also the grave concern about the sanitizing of history. The fact that there have been obvious efforts by someone as yet unidentified to delete the Wikipedia entries of Christopher Mellon, the former Under Secretary of Defense.

And Harold Mongren, who we spoke about earlier, and Pippa Mongren. Somebody is trying to sanitise Wikipedia and remove references that might bolster public understanding of the UAP issue.

And it's funny, some of the people online have been speculating that it might have been this self-promoting group known as the guerrilla skeptics. I'm not going to name them by name because I think they get a kind of a purient sexual delight out of being named and being associated with being part of the guerrilla skeptics.

I'm increasingly concerned that their denials are true and that it's not the guerrilla skeptics who are responsible for these deletions, that in fact, it's more likely people from the intelligence community. And I commend to people the great work that's being done by a friend of mine, Rob Heverly, who's been researching the background of who it is that's doing these Wikipedia deletions.

I do know there's an ongoing FBI investigation at the moment. And if there are people from the intelligence community that have been involved in sanitizing Wikipedia, it's two issues here. Firstly, there's a huge problem with digital history. The fact that it is so easy because of the ridiculous status system on Wikipedia to delete other people's entries for no good reason other than the fact that you just don't want those entries to be given priority.

Wikipedia is supposedly a system that has editors that achieve status by the number of years that they've worked doing Wikipedia entries. But the problem with that is that it's corruptible. And it's quite clear from people I'm talking to that there are people in the intelligence community who have garnered seniority on Wikipedia and who are sanitizing Wikipedia entries and trying to stop the public from knowing about things that will properly be known about.

There's also a lot of tampering with Google searching and are the big tech giants. Is Facebook, Google, are these organizations all being entirely honorable with what they're doing? And frankly, it undermines, no matter what you think of them, it undermines the importance of Twitter.

because Elon Musk has vowed to ensure that Twitter remains neutral and transparent and that its algorithms will not be tampered with as they clearly were being before he took over the joint. It was quite clear that there was sanitization going on on Twitter to stop certain things from getting currency, notably the investigations into the source of COVID-19 and whether it came from the

Wuhan laboratory. We now know, ironically, from within the defense and intelligence establishment of the US that the view was and is that it came from the Chinese lab and it was being suppressed by the Biden White House. Now, why the hell were they doing that? And why were they using social media to do that? And how much of that kind of sanitization on social media is happening at the moment with the UAP issue? This is a current issue. Keep your eye on it.

Now you've gone and done it, my friend. You brought Elon Musk into this. So let all the comments and the hate mail go to you, my friend, because it's going to be something. Look, it's funny. No matter what you think of Elon Musk, he is doing some good work on keeping Twitter transparent. You just keep digging that hole, Ross. Just keep digging. Listen, on the Wiki thing, just real quick aside, it does need a refresher, at least a very –

open new reevaluation based on some of this stuff about how they should or should not do business. Anyone who's got a Wikipedia page knows it's not right. I mean, I have a Wikipedia page. You can't fix it. I can't pay anybody to fix it. If I try to fix it, I'm told, well, we don't accept you fixing your own page. Mine's so full of inaccuracies. I'd probably welcome the Defense Department

to come in and rewrite it. I mean, it's just, it's not a great source. And of course we, you know, we always tell students don't use Wikipedia as your source. I think now we're starting to understand why, because the truth is I do read some of those pages on some of these people and they do seem very sanitized and they do change. Somebody will. How sinister is it? How sinister is it that the very moment that Harold Baumgroom goes public after his death on Jesse Michael's show, American Alchemy,

How sinister is it that his Wikipedia page that bolsters his credentials as a man who'd given service in four White Houses, four presidents and given noble service post that service. How sinister is it that somebody took it upon themselves to try and denigrate his credibility in the eye of the public? Somebody is playing a dirty game and we need to call them out.

Yes, they are. So listen, this has all been serious stuff. Can we be unserious for a couple of minutes here? Sure. Would that be all right? By the way, I just wanted to point one thing out. See this book, folks, The Last Battle? Yeah.

It is the 80th anniversary today, as we're recording, of the last battle of World War II in Europe. This is a book I have under option. We're shooting the movie this year, and I'm very proud of this. And the author is Stephen Harding, and he did this research on this battle that no one's ever really heard about until he wrote this book. It's going to be a hell of a movie. Okay.

What I do want to say, Ross, is from time to time, I run across people who say, ah, you got a great show. I'd love to make a little contribution here. Well, a guy named Will McGraw, young man named Will McGraw, who I've talked to on the phone, um,

actually put together a little video for us. And I know since I had to see it because he gave it to me, I said, let's at least surprise Coulthard with it. Let's play this for Ross and see what he thinks. So if Tyler, our producer, is ready to let loose with it, let's let loose with this video from Will McGraw.

Thank you, Will. It's 2025. There is this drone story going on. Wayne! As you pointed out, Ross. What are you listening to? Need to know? I would certainly like to, yes. It's the name of a podcast. Oh yeah, I know that one. It's about, like, aliens and stuff. Well, yeah, I mean, they explore contemporary happenings within the world of unidentified aerial phenomena. Wow, thanks for zapping the fun right out of there, Professor. Ha ha ha ha ha.

I like that guy Ross on the show. He's got a cool way of talking. He's Australian. I don't care what he is, his voice is cool. Well, yeah, that's why he talks like that. 'Cause he's Austra- you know what? Never mind. You know what I like about that show? Is that they record it from their respective offices. So it feels like a Zoom call and I'm part of the conversation. Yeah, I'm sure you have a lot to contribute. I do! Sometimes I pause the show to make a point of my own. That's weird. Interesting argument there, Bryce, but I see things a little differently.

You know what, Marcus? That was actually pretty good. He didn't even say anything. Do you guys actually believe in, like, UFOs and that stuff, though? To an extent, yeah. I'm at least curious. Ugh, that's disappointing. You don't? No way. There's never been a single legitimate sighting from a credible source. Says who? Uh, the government. I'm pretty sure we would have heard about one if it happened. Really, dude? You're taking their word for it? What are you saying, the government would lie to its own people?

Okay, I do not want to unpack all that right now, so if you don't mind, I'm gonna go back to- UFOs are real, Brad. I saw one. Really? Mm-hmm. What did it look like?

I'm not gonna tell you. Why? 'Cause you guys are gonna steal my cool story and try to pass it off as your own. I promise you that won't happen. Nope. Nice try, buddy! Aw, rats! See? This is why I don't believe in that stuff. No, look, there are plenty of qualified people who discuss this type of thing in a sophisticated manner. Marcus is not a good example. Exactly.

Wait, what? Speaking of that, I'd like to get back to this podcast. Guys, I really saw one. Oh yeah? Just like how you saw Cillian Murphy at Trader Joe's? I did! I took a picture of him, but his security made me delete it. He was in Europe at the time. We looked it up. Okay, sorry that cool things happen to me more than you. Whoa, look! I just saw something flash through the sky. It's straight down in like a beam. I think it may have crashed. Really? Yeah, it was only like a couple hundred yards away. Well, we gotta go take a look!

You've got to be kidding me. Come on, dude. If there were any time to test your belief, it'd be now. Plus, if we find a crashed UFO, we'd be heroes. Steven Spielberg will make a movie about us. Oh, we could be on the podcast. And we could get a brand deal with like Alienware or Monster. All right, let's go. Yes, Wayne, come on. You guys go ahead. I'm right behind you. Snooze you lose, Wayne.

Oh, we should probably throw on some suits. Why would we do that? It's a sign of respect. That's what the men in black do. Marcus, I don't want to hear any more of your ideas, okay? There's ample reason with witnesses.

I love it. I absolutely love it. Good on him. And thank you so much for sharing that. That gave me a good laugh. I saw that and I just thought, you know, sometimes, listen, it's a very serious subject that we talk about, but sometimes you just got to also have some fun. And I thought that was a really good one. I think it's important to take the piss as often as possible, frankly, Bryce. I think we all take ourselves far too seriously.

Anyway, he likes the way you talk, Ross. So there you go. Yeah.

Next time we'll be doing this, my friend, we'll be at Contact in the Desert in person. Yes. In fact, I'm really looking forward to that. And if you think about it, we've never done it. Well, first of all, everyone needs to know that you and I were literally just Zooming with each other when we decided to do the podcast. And we did like 18 shows or something before we ever met in person. That was back in 22, I think.

And we've seen each other a couple of times since then, notably when David Grush was out here.

But we are now going to, I don't know if you'd call it a road trip, but we are going to probably get in the same vehicle and drive ourselves out to Palm Desert and do a live need to know on May 30th at Contact in the Desert. And I assume if it's live, we'll at least record it live. It'll be up very soon after that. So I'm looking forward to it. Don't know what's going to be on it, though. Anything could happen.

It's all bullshit on the run, mate. We'll make it up as we go along. Listen, my friend, it's been fun. I really enjoyed it. And I'll see you. I'll see you in Palm Desert. Well, I'll see you here and then we'll we'll drive. See you, buddy. See you then. See you, everybody. Take care. Bye bye.