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Imminent - (Project Book Club)

2025/6/25
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Need To Know with Coulthart and Zabel

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Bryce Zabel
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Chrissy Newton
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Bryce Zabel: 我对这次的节目感到既兴奋又有点担心。我们要讨论Lou Elizondo的《Eminent》,这本书对某些人来说颇具争议。这本书几乎包含了所有关于UFO的内容,包括他家中的球体、遥视训练和对罗斯威尔事件的确认。我认为这本书并不完美,但它很棒,Lou Elizondo为世界做出了巨大的贡献。 Chrissy Newton: 我们应该讨论Lou Elizondo的书,因为它在时间上很合适,而且有很多内容值得探讨。Lou Elizondo是一位优秀的叙述者,听他的有声书很有价值。这本书关注意识、科学和神学,并以通俗易懂的方式解释了高深的科学理论。我也喜欢这本书,我认为Lou Elizondo和出版商都做得很好,对于喜欢UFO的人来说,这是一本重要的读物。这本书有一些不准确的地方,我必须指出来。

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The hosts discuss their recent activities, including attending the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies conference and Contact in the Desert. They also reflect on the contrast between the UFO community and the broader public's interest in the topic.
  • Attended SCU and met Jay Stratton, Jake Barber, and James Fowler.
  • Contrast in interest in UFOs between Contact in the Desert and Newport Beach TV Fest.
  • The hosts' roles as educators in the UFO community.

Shownotes Transcript

Translations:
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Hey, good morning, UFO book friends. I'm Bryce Zabel. Good morning, everybody. I'm Christine Newton, and this is our second episode of Project Book Club. So I imagine we're both extremely excited. I know I am. And also maybe a little bit concerned about how people are going to take this one. Yeah.

You never know, but we're bold. You know, I'm already on, by the way, my second cup of coffee. That probably explains why my atoms are vibrating. Either that or it's because what you just said, that because we're doing the book Eminent by Lou Elizondo, you know, maybe that's why my atoms are vibrating because it's a pretty controversial book to some people and we're going to take it on.

controversial to say the least. I think you're right. We should take it on. I think people would be upset if we didn't. The book is kind of of the time now. Jace Stratton will be coming out with his book soon. So I think we do need to cover Lou Elizondo's book for many reasons, for accuracy, for time. The time period is just right. So I think there's a lot to unpack here.

You bet. Well, it was a huge success. I call it the mothership of UFO books for 24 and 25. I mean, it just blew everything else away. But, you know, since our goal here is to not be a show that's about super hardcore UFO psychodrama and everything and to have a little fun sometimes, let's diverge a little bit. What do you say? I would love that. Let's do that.

So I just wanted to tell you what is literally going on outside my home office right now, Christy. It's unbelievable. Literally on the hill outside my office, there are 200 goats that have been delivered to the hill below my house today.

They're fenced in and they are eating all the brush that's on the hill. We don't hire people to knock it down anymore. We bring the goats in. And I'm, you know, it's because of fire danger. It's a really serious thing. But boy, people stop and look and they honk. And it's, you know, it's kind of a party out there. And I certainly learned one thing beyond any doubt doing this, Chrissy, and that is those goats can eat. And they're also washing it all down with my water from my garden hose. So there's that.

I, when I came to visit, I remember you showed me like the lay of the land for the goats. I didn't think you'd have like a hundred and I hope we clip this and I hope Tyler clips that section in. Cause like I thought it would maybe like six or seven, but it's like at least a hundred. It's so amazing. Literally people pull off on the freeway and they look up and see them and all that. And

You know, it's just something that goes on. But let's talk about what's been going on since we did our first show, which was, of course, The Believer by Ralph Blumenthal. Now we've moved on. What's happened in your own life? I know you were at the SCU, I think. I was at SCU, the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies.

And surprisingly, you never know who's going to show up there. So when I walked through the door, Jay Stratton was our lead speaker. I was able to spend some time with Jay the day before with a group of friends, just chatting with him, getting to know Jay more from a journalist perspective and just as an individual. And then when we walked through the door to my direct right of my table was Jake Barber.

and James Fowler. So if you don't know who that is, they are the leads in Skywatcher that your co-host and need to know Ross Coulthard was to broke that story. And so it was interesting to have Jake on my far right. So I spent some time with the Skywatcher team from all different perspectives, from Jordan to James to Jake,

to everybody and got to know them a little bit better of, you know, where they're going in the future with all of this and what's kind of happened currently. So yeah, when you go to SCU, you never know who you're going to run into and you never know who's there. And then we also do, I do play a game called spot the spook. So I... Did you spy any? Did you spy any spies? Not this time.

Last year, I think I spot the spook and I was wondering if he was trying to infiltrate many different groups. The spook last year was wearing shorts and sandals and looked totally incognito, like he was just some average Joe. And that's when I went, that's the spook.

but not this time around. And I actually haven't seen that guy since. So that even says more. But yeah, it's always good. I love SU. It's like such a great community, but you get to sit with some of the best scientists working in this space and writing papers and learning more about what they're doing. I'm horrible at mathematics. Communications and comm is my lead, but I get to hear it from...

from them when I get to report it myself, if it's not with a debrief or on my own podcast. So yeah, I love SCU. It's, it's home. Well, it sounds like what we call in Hollywood out here, we use the word elevated. It's an elevated gathering. Now I was on the other side of that spectrum, I suppose this month, it's been a pretty wild month because while you were at SCU, um,

Coldheart himself came out here. He stayed overnight at my house. Then we got in a car the next day and we drove out to Indian Wells where Contact in the Desert was happening. And he and I did a live podcast out there, which was a lot of fun. The rest of the time, lots of great speeches, lots of great speakers, of course. I spent some time in the bar talking to some of my thousand UFO friends there, hanging out.

But what was interesting for this last month, though, is immediately after that, days later, I went to Newport Beach where my wife and I are the co-chairs, the honorary co-chairs of the Newport Beach TV Fest. So going from this UFO gathering where it's all UFOs all the time, 24-7, and suddenly I'm down in Newport Beach with the Hollywood crowd. And it was fantastic from that point of view. I mean, literally...

Got to meet people like Billy Bob Thornton and talk to him and Patrick Schwarzenegger of White Lotus and people like Adam Brody and Kate Hudson and folks like that. Now, what's interesting about that, besides not here to just drop names or anything, but it was a great event. But

we forget sometimes how we are in our own echo chamber, because it's easy to think everybody cares about UFOs like we care about UFOs. So I went from contact in the desert, where in fact, everybody did care about UFOs, to where I went to Newport Beach and nobody cared about them, or at least nobody talked about them. There was no conversation about that whatsoever. And that made me think that we have to be

We have to acknowledge that we are still in a niche and we like to think that it's going broad spectrum. And certainly today's book by Lou Elizondo Eminent being a number one bestseller on the New York Times list would lead you to believe that the whole world's talking about it, but they're not. They're not talking about it. No, I wish they were. When I find myself in other different groups or communities, I'm

If people know my work, then I usually get pulled aside and you probably get this too. Like, hey, can you tell me more? Or my favorite is when I hang out with specific friends. They're really close to a best friend of mine, Marie Nicola. I went to a cottage once and we're all hanging out and it was so picturesque where I was like storytelling and everyone was kind of out on the patio and they're like, Chrissy, can you tell us about UFOs? Yeah.

And so I find myself being like, well, let me tell you, you know, it's so funny because then you become, even though I'm not, I know so many more people that are doing such amazing work, but you become that, that person because you realize they don't, they're not following it the way that we follow it. And that's okay. That's why we're, that's why we're here. Yeah.

That's why I give people copies of books because when you're in a social setting and somebody goes, well, what's going on with UFOs? What's that all about? I mean, that is a pretty big topic to just lay down casually in a three minute conversation. So sometimes I will try to give them the highlights, but sometimes I'll give them a book too and say, you ought to read that thing. But anyway, I just wanted to say something else kind of strange opened my month of June. On June 2nd,

Both Lou Elizondo and myself were the guests on Dr. Phil Primetime, which was kind of an out-of-body experience on its own because we all know a little bit about Dr. Phil. It was like a trip and a half to be on his show and to certainly be sharing the stage with Lou Elizondo. But I believe it was the first show ever that Dr. Phil had ever done on UFOs. So if that's any kind of barometer of where things are going, there you go.

Did he try to analyze you and lose childhood? Yeah, that's well, thankfully, no, because I would have probably been more than I could take or even the audience could take. Although it'd be interesting. You know, we do know something about loose childhood and we're going to get to that in a minute. But I was honestly impressed that Dr. Phil seemed to be willing to take the subject seriously.

you know, on. And he was talking about USOs and he was talking about UAP and he's a pilot and a diver and he was willing to talk about those things. So while he was willing to take it seriously, and I have to give him points for that, I also have to say candidly, he didn't seem to do his homework very well. He opened the show, like, what's the name of the author we're going to be talking about today? Just give me your pronunciation. And what's his long form name?

Luis. L-U-I, Luis Elizondo. Okay. Dr. Phil opened the show and called him Louie.

The entire show. He called him Louie. And a couple of times, I thought that was so strange. So a couple of times, I would sort of say, well, Dr. Phil, as Lou just said, thinking he might pick up on it. But no, he called him Louie till the bitter end. And I thought that was kind of weird in its own way, but kind of charming. Doesn't he have a producer in his ear? Yeah.

I would imagine he would, but it's countdown, right? Going to countdown the show. And sometimes you have a producer in your ear. I guess there's one way that this happened. We originally taped it

But as a podcast and they liked it so much, they decided to put it on the primetime TV show. So probably on the primetime TV show, there probably is a producer in his ear all the time, but maybe not so much for the podcast, you know. But anyway, I thought that was interesting. And it was certainly a great way to start a month where I knew you and I were going to get together and and talk about Lou and his book. I didn't mention that to him because, you know, he didn't tell me like.

Philly, we've got a book club. Philly, I should have called it Philly. Hey, Philly, you and Louie. Anyway, before we get into this book, and I know we have to do it, but we got a lot of comments from our last show. And I thought we'd read a few of them. Why don't you give it a shot with the first one? Okay. This is from Rodney Curtis. Okay.

Thank you, Rodney, for leaving a comment. It says, hey, what a great idea, a UAP book club for deep diving into this wild and wonderful topic. You two keep me company as I charge my EV. That's interesting. Good job on electric. In a lonely suburban Detroit parking lot in the middle of the night.

Oh, we need to give you company. I'm glad we're keeping you company during that. I almost felt like I was there sipping a warm mug with you. Oh, hey, there's an idea. What about a contest to win one of those mugs? That's a great idea, Rodney. A trivia quiz like NPR. And I highly agree with that. We should do that. We may get to that someday, but I'll tell you something, Chrissy. It creeps me out. That's beautiful. And I'll show mine off too. There you go. It creeps me out a little bit because I'm

I don't even want to be a little responsible for distracting a man who's charging his EV in the middle of Detroit

in a parking lot at night. That just makes me feel a little too responsible for his wellbeing. I don't want him distracted by our show. I want him paying attention. - Well, okay. Okay, here's the thing though, when you're charging electric car, I've done this before. So Rodney, I know that pain. I don't have an electric car, but I did one as a media trip. And I won't say who, because it was supposed to take me five hours to get there to Montreal from Toronto. It took us 10.

And yeah, and we were charging in an EV parking lot, which is an hour and you have nothing to do. I wasn't driving a Tesla. I was driving another electric brand and there was nothing to do. Like you literally, like I was just staring at Canadian tire, which is like a store here. So, and we were laughing. And at one point I just said to Marie, cause we were driving a huge SUV. I was like, we got to go plug in the bus again. I was so upset because it was just like trying to plug in this massive little car.

It felt like a big... If anyone drives an electric car, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You're like, it's like a big outlet plug. Absolutely. I know. All right. Well, I got another comment for us. This comes from Robert Hood 4260 who writes...

Thanks for putting together a missing link on the broad UFO subject. Very enjoyable and informative. Have also read, listened, and watched a ton of info. There's way too much fake or self-deluded material around. Good to have more discerning and informed reviews. But that also scared me, Chrissy, because I thought that puts the pressure on. We have to be discerning and informed.

And, you know, that's like a Rorschach test, because I have to tell you, in the UFO podcast business, as you know, sometimes when you think I'm being so informative and discerning, everyone else is listening, going, what a fool. How dare they say that? So, you know, we're doing our best. We can only try. Yeah, I agree with you. I just...

You can't know everything. And our job is to, and even I know from my side and your side in journalism as well, and now you do this, is that we try to present facts. We try to have a discerning conversation. And then, hey, if we're wrong, I will always report that. I think that that's the point of being human and being alive. You know, we can't know. And the best thing is that at least we're having these conversations. We're actually doing this rather than staying away from it because we're

you know, why let stigma get in the way, right? Sure. Absolutely. I have one of my favorite comments I want to read to you. This comes from Robbie Jackson. And Robbie Jackson comments, pretty decent episode, but Bryce keeps butting in. And it's pretty annoying, to be honest. I had to laugh. And I also have to say Robbie has a point. I can be very annoying. Just ask my family.

I wouldn't say that. That's not true. I've met Jackie. She would not call you annoying. I'm not going to butt in. There, I did it again. I butted in. There you go. No, no. I have a good one, though, too. This is me butting in. I have a good one. This comes from Jimmy Chowosky. I'm sorry, Jimmy, if I said your name wrong. Great introduction episode. Looking forward to the upcoming episodes, including some of Diana Pasoka's books.

And that is a book that we are doing. Actually, yes. We're going to be doing Encounters, which is her second book after American Cosmic. It's her second book. And we're going to be doing that next episode. So if you want to read that one, folks, you can do that. And we'll be talking about that next week. Okay, I'm going to wrap this thing up. Got final comment. And this one I thought was very interesting. It comes from someone named Hex Nottingham. And he writes this.

I gave a copy of Eminent to one of the former members of the Black Aces, a man who will never forget the looks on the faces of Commander Fravor, Lieutenant Commander Alex Dietrich, and Commander Chad Underwood, and noted their abnormal demeanor

when they came back from the Tic Tac encounter. He believed it to be otherworldly. He was excited to get the book, but still hasn't read it. LOL. Which I thought, wow, that's a really great firsthand experience. I don't know why this guy hasn't read the book though. But Hex, at least you can tell them now to watch this show because we're going to spend the rest of the show talking about that book. And, you know, I've read it

I can't really tell you, Chrissy, how many times I've read it because it doesn't... It seems strange because I've got it and was listening to it on audiobook and I was jumping around in Kindle and I also have this hardcover of it. So I feel like I...

probably have read everything almost twice, but not in the right order. So we'll see how that goes. But let's get the party started. What do you say? I agree. I've actually listened to it twice because, again, we spoke about this in the first podcast.

Lou Elizondo is a really great narrator. Yes. So if anybody, I would say, do what Bryce is doing. Read it if you love to read, but please maybe listen to an episode. Episode 17 was, or sorry, chapter 17 was one of my favorites too from him. But I just, I think it's worth it because you get to hear it, lose perspective, and it's his life through his voice. And I always think that's,

So important, you know, and Bryce, when you do your book and when you should be narrating your own life book, I think you should narrate it as well. Here's why I think that I want to just validate what Chrissy just said, Chrissy, because it's so interesting. He is a good narrator.

You know, Lou is a persona and he feels very authentic in his reading of it. And what's interesting about it, what makes that reading even better as a, and by the way, please read it however you want to read it, but just commenting only on how it sounded. He's, he's very talented at reading, but what's interesting is last month when we did, uh, the believer by Ralph Blumenthal, uh,

It was about the life of John Mack. So if you think about it, that was a biography. Ralph wrote a biography of John Mack. This is an autobiography, right? This is a memoir. And it isn't just your classic UFO book, which attempts to prove UFOs are real. This is someone's life story. So you start and you're listening to Lou talk about...

His life growing up and how he was bullied as a kid repeatedly, you know, and how his father was, you know, involved in all the Cuban politics back, you know, during the time when Cuba fell to Castro.

and started out on Castro's side, ended up anti-Castro. And Lou, if I'm not mistaken, let me see here. Yeah, he was trained by his... This cracked me up. I mean, I was like, come on. He was trained by his father to hotwire a car, to fire a weapon, to disassemble a gun, to drive a car when he was eight years old, and to fly a small plane as a kid with pillows underneath his ass while he's driving. I'm flying, and I thought,

I don't recall my father doing any of those things with me. I think my father said, why don't you get on your bike and go see your friends? I got things to do. So, wow. Yeah. I was hanging out on a dirt road, probably like, you know, in the middle of Ontario and Southwestern rural Ontario, you know, being a, like kind of a farm, well adjacent to kids farms, but playing with kittens and running around, you know, I was not learning how to hotwire a car and,

No, hardly. Hey, you know, one thing that struck me reading it, though, and I'm curious what your take was.

It feels like it's in a lineage of books that takes us back all the way to the beginning. If you think about it, I'm holding up a book by Donald Kehoe here, right? And Donald Kehoe was the retired Air Force major who, in the 50s up until the early 60s, wrote a succession of books. I think they were called Flying Saucers Are Real was the first one. Flying Saucers Top Secret. That's what this one is called. The Flying Saucer Conspiracy. Flying Saucers From Outer Space.

And they were all him after he had left the service talking about his time in the service, but also using the people he knew in the service to try to tell the larger story of UAP, which again, were flying saucers at the time. We have elevated that genre, which was its own genre to something entirely different with Lou's book, because here we have a guy who's literally on the inside.

Yes. Literally on the inside running programs and talking to people classified. So he's not on the outside looking in like Donald Kehoe was. He's on the inside coming out. And it's a whole different way to look at things. And I found that whole context very fascinating for this book.

Yeah. And I think the programming, you know, Donald Kehoe might've had some of that, you know, nationalist military kind of programming that's there, but we know that Lou did have that, right. He worked within government, you know, the nation was first and he still does honor that. And we see that.

You know, here's a funny story that I have with Lou that I don't think I've ever told before on camera. But I was lucky enough. I've spent time with Lou Elizondo in Los Angeles. I felt like I was doing a Rolling Stones piece where I was kind of following him around for two days, getting to know Lou even better. Right. From a journalist perspective and objective perspective, too. Right. And I was with him and Sean Cahill.

And I was in Los Angeles and I was in the back of a car and Sean Cahill was in, Lou was driving or Sean Cahill? I think Lou was driving, Sean Cahill was in the passenger seat. And they just started talking about their lives and what it was like serving and what it was like being part of this military industrial complex. And saying, I remember Sean Cahill saying to Lou Elizondo, you know, I looked at you so differently. Like you were my superior and I looked up to you and the way that I would speak to you is so different now.

But like, now you're my friend. And it's so different in how I see you in their relationship. And I remember sitting back and I was like, I wished I recorded it for myself because I was like, wow, these two men, I kept thinking to myself, these two men are like connecting and they're sharing and they've been through the same type of like struggles and programming that's happened through the industrial military complex.

So in good old Chrissy fashion style, I stuck my head in the middle of the console and said, well, if we're fighting about UFOs, why aren't we fighting about changing the programming? And they both scream, exactly. I was like, you know, you could feel like you could feel

feel that moment for them where I was like, I get it. Like, I understand what you're going through. I've never maybe experienced that from a military perspective, but I can imagine what you're going through and I can hear that. And it's so important that that mindset is changed within any military industrial complex. So that really showed this side of Lou and Sean Cahill that not everybody gets to see all the time of being real people that have gone through some pretty, you

extreme situations that most people will never see themselves ever in, ever. And maybe thankfully for that. I love your story, Chrissy. And the only note I have is next time that happens, sort of surreptitiously turn your iPhone on to record because we would need it for this show. It'd be fantastic. Okay.

Listen, something, you know, people say, ask me, they say, well, what is this book about? And it's almost like it's about the kitchen sink of UFOs in its own way, because it's got everything UFO in it. But from a fairly personal point of view, it's got orbs that have come inside his house. It's got remote viewing because he was trained as a remote viewer while he was in the military.

It's got a confirmation that Roswell was a two crash field situation. What? Lou's confirmation. Lou's confirmation. Of what? Roswell. Well, he's confirming it. He's confirming it. He's saying that he was told by Hal Puthoff that it was the real thing. And...

We can debate that later. What's that? Okay, well, we will. We should. He's also talking about crash wreckage bodies, autopsies, retrievals,

For good measures, there's Socorro, New Mexico in 64 and Colores, Brazil and the 1952 DC oversights. I mean, it's amazing. And I thought to myself, well, wait a second. If he was on the inside, we do know one thing. He had to take the manuscript for this book and he had to submit it to the defense office of pre-publication and security review, which is known as DOPSER. And they took an entire year looking at it.

And my feeling was, wait, we're supposed to believe there's a big UFO coverup and they let him go say this.

I mean, what's going on with that? So then I was reading the book and it says, before it even gets started, just so you know, it says, the views expressed in this publication are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Department of Defense or the U.S. government. The public release clearance of this publication by the Department of Defense does not imply Department of Defense endorsement or factual accuracy whatsoever.

of the material. So he's got the, you know, he's able to say, well, it's, you know, the government's not behind it, but honestly, if, if the government is as all pervasive and, you know, willing to, as we've heard stories, willing to kill people to keep this secret,

Somebody could have easily gotten their hands on this manuscript and somebody could have certainly talked to Lou Elizondo and said, Lou, don't do that. But the choice was, let this thing go out. And I'm not saying that I formed an opinion one way or the other, but that would be pretty much the definition of soft disclosure, to let something go out like this, where it raises all these issues from a good, incredible source like Lou Elizondo. And, you know,

Tell him, well, you better put out the disclaimer. But, you know, the government let him say this. He constantly says, I am under an NDA. I can't tell you this or I can't tell you that. Or I'm classified and I know things that I can't tell you the rest of. And yet he told us all these things in his book. And he said these things countless times in the interviews promoting this book. So all I'm suggesting, Chrissy, is something interesting.

Something's going on here with the publication of this book. I agree. That doesn't mean that Lou is lying and that, and I would hope he's not right. I think we've seen a lot of evidence. There's a lot of history in it. You know, the book really focuses on things like consciousness. It talks about science. It has theology. It has a really good breakdown of layman's terms of really high, hard scientific theories that he explains very well. And I, I,

I appreciate Lou. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that for the average person that wants to be able to understand science and be able to really get it from a layman's perspective, because sometimes let's be honest, it's hard. There was a couple of things I think that most people would have been shocked when they read it. And interloper was that for me.

First of all, if you haven't read the book, this is a spoiler, but I imagine that if you follow the UFO topic, you probably have heard of this classified program name called Interloper. And Interloper, it was operations interloper is what it's called, but it was a program that was designed by Jay Stratton and Lou Elizondo and ATIP.

where they were looking to then plan a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier to be in the middle of the ocean that had nuclear explosives on it so that it could attract a potential UAP. Because from what we know around UFOs and the data that we collected, we know that they like nuclear sites and they love water.

So this was a plan that Lou Elizondo and his team were putting together to potentially trap a UFO. And the Pentagon said no to it and didn't put it forward. And I'm not exactly sure why they said no. I believe it was just, they just said no to it. And I think it's unbelievable. We have never heard anything like that from a military strategy, tactical perspective. And, um,

I would love to know and I would love to ask Lou to be able to break down that tactical plan if he could, because I think it's very interesting. This is the first time I believe I've ever heard anybody from a government perspective talk about an actual plan and how they would go about trapping a UFO.

It's wild. It's crazy. I mean, it's a hell of a plan. Just so people know what we're talking about, there's one paragraph that he writes about what it actually is. I'm going to read that for everybody. He says, the plan for Interloper was to use one of our nuclear-powered carrier strike groups as bait.

We would pick a designated spot in the Atlantic and drop in a huge nuclear footprint, one irresistible to our friends from out of town, which is what he calls the others, as they were later called. Nuclear-powered carriers, nuclear-powered destroyers, nuclear-capable assets, nuclear-powered submarines, all in the same vicinity within a huge body of water. The trap would now be set. Nukes and water, irresistible. I mean...

You have to, you know, I don't know exactly who said what about what, when, but it's a bold plan. You know, it didn't get the go ahead, but it was audacious. And in fact, to be honest with you, I just want to option the movie rights to it. I mean, that's, that's a crazy idea, but kind of good.

It's smart. It's so smart. And it said that the plan was, it was fully planned and it went to the joint staff. So it went into the Pentagon's joint staff. That's how far it went up. And then it was canceled. I just read here because of last minute, because of unknown reasons. So yeah, it's an amazing movie. So you should write that right now. Well, actually the truth is I didn't do exactly that, but in my official denial movie on the sci-fi channel, the idea was to use Whitley Strieber as bait.

to capture one of them. Oh, poor Whitley. Poor Whitley. I turned him into bait. Didn't Whitley just have a birthday too? He did. And happy birthday, happy 80th to Whitley Streber. Happy birthday, Whitley. You know, who, listen, has been such an influential person in all of this. So we wish you a happy birthday, Whitley. Love and UFOs to you.

So, interloper, I almost am left speechless, which is rare for me, but I'm not quite sure. I'd like to know more. I'd like to know exactly. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall on those Pentagon briefings and decisions. I like to see it happen. And I, you know...

People might complain, be like, why are we paying tax dollars to do that? We obviously have a conflict right now that's happening around the world, multiple different conflicts that we need to focus on. But I hope at some point in time, we are able to do this kind of tactical plan. But again, I would love just to know how it was planned because it's fully written out. It's somewhere in the Pentagon in a tactical little file that says interloper somewhere that talks about how they would have done it step by step.

It's in there. Somebody has it. It's somewhere. And I would love to read that document. I'm assuming they decided not to do it because at the end of the day, somebody said, oh, that may be a clever idea, ladies and gentlemen, but it's pretty freaking dangerous.

Oh, it's super dangerous. Set a trap. And here's the other part about it. If we presume that for 80 years, various people have known a lot more about this topic than they've led on, which is what I certainly believe, I'm sure you believe it as well, then presumably somebody doesn't need interloper. They already know what these things are and what they mean. So what was the purpose of interloper itself? Yeah.

Well, the purpose was to trap a UFO, but it also means that it hasn't happened yet. But we've got UFOs, don't we? I mean, don't we have crash records? Like actually trap it, like trap it, a trap of a particular UFO so that we could research it and find out who was in it if they don't already know or what it's about or reverse engineer it, which we already are doing. But the other part is that maybe it has already happened. We just don't know. It doesn't just because they said that there's an unknown reason of why it

was canceled. But we don't know yet. Jay and Lou, they're not working for government. And maybe they do know that this possible plan could have happened or will happen at one point in time. And it also doesn't mean that other countries haven't done this as well.

Just one thing that Lou talks about doing is during the DOPSER review, certain things were asked to be taken out. And rather than take them out and rewrite them, he just blacked them out and left that in the book for people. So, for example, in the part that's talking about interloper, there's a number of blacked out things about the names of people. So there's some person involved in interloper that says,

Lou knows who it is, wrote about that person, and Dobser took it out. Don't know what that means, but there you go. All right, let's talk about... Let me say one... I will say one thing, though, is that with Dobser, Dobser is not a fact checker, right? So they'll let any...

mistake or anything kind of fly by. They're not fact-checking a book. They're only looking at it if anything classified or sensitive is maybe put in the book that could lead to national security issues, right? That's what Dobster does, but it does not fact-check.

So just so people know that if they're like, oh, okay, well, DOPS are fact-checked that everything must be accurate. No, they didn't fact-check it. No, it's not a fact-checker. It's to make sure that nothing from national security is there. They classified checked it, you know, and that's what took a year. They wanted to make sure that, yeah. Although it's still astonishing how much did get released through that process. Yeah.

I will say this. Some of this is, you know, maybe hasn't been fully vetted, right? Like we look at, you know, even with Roswell, don't get me wrong. Gosh, I was in a show related to Roswell. You've written books around Roswell. You know, it's not saying that something for sure happened there, but I wouldn't say that this confirmation, it was wild. I was actually shocked that Lou went there, to be honest, at least with Roswell. The other ones, not as much, but Roswell for sure. Because there's just...

There's so many questions around it. And I do think that he's giving some form of confirmation, but we need a government confirmation around Roswell more than anything, I would say, in my perspective, because there's so many theories out there of what potentially could have happened. And I've heard multiple of them. Right. And some are really bad. Sure.

Sure. If we're holding our breath for the government to confirm Roswell, remember, they've changed their story four times. I personally think they told the truth by accident when they released that press release in 1947 that said that it was really a flying disc that had been recovered on this ranch.

Look, I'm big on Roswell. I believe Roswell is the real deal. It's always been the real deal. The government has tried its best to make...

attempts to dissuade us from believing that. But I was very good friends with Stanton Friedman, and I'm friends with Don Schmidt, two men that actually competed to break the Roswell story. I've spent many dozens of hours with those two guys talking about Roswell and the people they talked to. I am 100% convinced that Roswell was something anomalous. Having said that,

One thing did trouble me about reading the book. And believe me, as you point out, I'm an author. I've made mistakes in my own books. And I'll probably make some in the book that I'm writing because that's sort of the nature of the beast. It's so much work and you're cross-referencing things and whatever. But I was kind of troubled by one thing because I know it's not right. In the book, Imminent, where Lou is talking about Roswell,

There is a fact there. He's talking about how that press release was put out. And then days later, some days later, I believe is how he put it. It was reversed. And the government said it was this Mylar weather balloon. That's actually not exactly what happened. And this is not open for interpretation.

On day one, they did talk about how it was the crash of a disc and sort of tied it into the flying saucer thing. And then it was hours later, it was just hours later, where they reversed position and said, never mind, it was one of these weather balloons. And that's where, of course, they posed Jesse Marcel, I believe,

in Fort Worth with, you know, he's on his knees looking at sorting through all this stuff. And he looks up and you can just see in his eyes that he's haunted by the lies he's having to tell. But it was hours, not days. And that seems like a big, you know, it's a small thing, but maybe it's a big thing too, because it means that somehow,

somewhere that didn't get fact checked in his book. And that actually is a fact, you know, the rest of it we can argue is conjecture or whatever, but that was a fact. So, you know, that's an issue that, so I'm not,

look, is this book perfect? It is not perfect, but is it great? I think it's great. I think it's a great book. And, and I know that I'm going to get mail and people are going to write me off and, and I don't care. I mean, I'm of a certain age now where I just don't care. If you don't like my interpretations, you won't watch the show and you won't listen to me, but I think he's done the world a big service. And, and I,

I stand in acknowledgement of that service.

Well said. You know, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon a little bit for critiques as well. As you should. I will start off by saying that I love this book as well, too. And I think Lou did a fabulous job. And I think the publishers did a fabulous job. And I think it's an important listen or read for anybody who likes UFOs. And you know what? Then they can fact check themselves and look into this. But it's a good place to start because he does a really great job

There are some areas though that are not as accurate. And we know in the UFO comedian space, when you do something that's not accurate, people will tell you, which is great. It's self-governing and that's the way it should be, right? That's how it works. Exactly. It's how it works. And that's, you don't take it as a criticism. You take it as feedback and you move on and do better. And so with that said, in that case, we look at, I'll do four things that were not the most accurate in this book. And I have to say it because I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't.

First, we look at AATIP's role. It was possibly overstated. The scope and the formality was a little bit overstated. We know that AATIP wasn't a formal program. It was like a nickname or a name that was used. And so that is kind of not explained properly. Alessandro's role, which we know if anybody was on UFO Twitter or anywhere else has known has been disputed.

about his actual position within that and his leadership position and what was his leadership position. We know that he has obviously worked with the American government and he was working adjacent to most of these programs, but it was very unclear. When we look at biologics,

There's photos put up there, but there's really no hard evidence that we can look, myself or any other journalist can look into to be able to find out more and be able to fact check. And so that's a little bit challenging with the biologic logic showing like, you know, what this might look like. And I know that he did this with on News Nation and what that image might look like. So that's a little bit hard to...

you know, to justify. But in the past, we know that allegedly biologics have, or chips or other things potentially have been taken out of people. And we've heard those stories, but we don't have any hard evidence or data to really back it in scientific data to back that. If I'm wrong, please somebody tell me in the comments or tell me in a DM on Twitter or at

And then we look at this kind of anomalous testimony. There's, and we know that Dobser for sure is a big hand in this, that they had to change the name or take out the name. So for my position to be able to fact check these things, it's really hard because I don't have the names. So myself or anybody else that's looking to be able to find out more information would have a troubling time to do that. But I'm not going to,

hold that against Lou. That's because of Dobster and many other reasons why he wasn't able to do it. But I'm happy that he still told the stories adjacent to it so that when those names do come out, we have Lou's book to be able to fall back on and then be able to dig in more as well. So those are really my critiques to the book. But overall, I think it's fabulous. I enjoyed it immensely. And I think that people are...

Outside of the things that have happened to Lou in most recent weeks and months, if we're just looking at the book, and this is just the book at all right now, what we're talking about, I think it's well done. And I'm glad Lou did it. Well, at the risk of being a Lou Elizondo apologist, which I'm sure I'll be accused of, but just one thought, it just occurred to me how...

Some factors remain in a book like this. Okay, what do we know? We know that Lou got to write a book. And so he was told by his publisher and his agents, write like the wind, you know, get this thing done. So he wrote like the wind. Then he had to get it approved in the DOPSER process, which took a year. When he got the book back,

He couldn't make changes in that or it would go back into the DOPSER process. They weren't going to say, oh, we're just going to review that change you want to make on page 29.

If he changed anything about it, it went back in the process. So he may, I haven't spoken to him about it, but he may have had a situation where he had to suck up a couple of things that any other writer would want to fix, but he might not have been able to, or else it would have been another year later.

going through it. I don't know that for a fact that I'm just saying it is possible. I just wanted to throw one other thing out though, that I thought was so interesting. I learned something that kind of blew my mind and I think it needs to be out there and it has nothing to do with blowing my mind metaphysically. When Ross and I started Need to Know several years ago, one of our first shows was about how Harry Reid had passed away.

And one of the things that I did at that time in that show is I read every obituary I could get my hands on about Harry Reid.

And I couldn't find but one, and it was in a marginal publication, where they actually mentioned that Harry Reid was involved in UAP disclosure and spent the last three years of his life kind of obsessed about it. It didn't somehow become an important thing that the world should know about. So Harry Reid got covered in his death in UAP.

obituary after obituary for being a boxer as a kid. That came up over and over again. But the idea that he was interested in UAP wasn't in those obituaries. Okay, that's just a fact. That was what our thing was about. So I've always been interested in that. I'm reading Lou's book, and he points out

That Harry Reid was very ill, obviously, fighting, I believe, pancreatic cancer. And at the end of his life, he was hanging on because the NDAA, the National Defense Appropriations Act, the first one that had that language in about UAP had been passed by the House and passed by the Senate and was going to Biden for signature.

And he hung on and hung on and hung on. And guess when Harry Reid died? One day after the bill was signed into law. Now,

And just as a journalist, that is a great hook for a guy that was the majority leader who spent three years obsessed on this topic and for no one to mention it, for no one to even know it existed. I find it really is a good and searing indictment of how mainstream media has covered this. It's just human interest. Even if Harry Reid was...

insane to think that UAP were real, it would still be a journalistic thing to report his interest and the fact that he literally fought to hang on to dear life. And that's no exaggeration. He hung on to dear life until he could say that that legislation that he supported so vigorously was finally passed. So that's something I learned from Lou's book that I'll never forget.

Oh, yeah. And right there, doesn't that tell you, hey, something's going on? If you have a man of that stature and that caliber, you know, before he passes wanting this to, you know, be released around the world or at least to the American people, you know, that tells you that something's going on. You know, Chrissy, if...

I suppose if we were a proper book club, which we, of course, aspire to be, folks, you have to talk a little bit about how the book is structured and how it's written and everything. And we have. We've said it's a memoir and we've said that, you know, it was interesting to hear him read it because he's telling his own story.

I did have one nitpicky kind of thing about it, just because I'm struggling with this in this latest book that I'm writing where, you know, I got a lot of chapters and I'm trying to balance them out and make sure they make sense and blah, blah, blah. The stuff any writer does. And I was a little...

at the cadence of the book. There are a couple of chapters in there that are like three pages long, and then there are a couple that are 30 pages long. It just seemed strange to me that some of them were so short and others were so long. It just, it seemed a little rushed in that regard. Like, you know,

you know, his agent or publishers or whatever, didn't have time to give him any notes on it because it was so rushed into the, the dopser process. That's just my take, but I don't know. Did, did you even notice that when you were reading it? No, I didn't even notice that to be honest. I think that maybe the reason why they did it particularly was maybe to, because they wanted to make sure that subject matter was covered, but they thought that there was more importance to maybe use life story than maybe to maybe other scientific,

studies, um, in historical studies. The one thing I always notice consistently, which is not a bad thing is a good thing is that there is always a history rundown in any of these books, but sometimes you hear history repeating itself. When you've read one book, you've, you've read it all right. And how they're telling history. So if the shorter, um,

potentially some of those shorter elements of the chapters could have just been about history where they're doing more of a rundown so that there's a back end information that the person knows who doesn't know anything about UFOs maybe. Sure, but also don't get me wrong. I thought

in terms of the historical record tilling the same soil and in 1952 there's the overflights and in this year there's sakura and all that i thought he did a pretty good job with that because he doesn't actually tell the chronological history of the world of ufos he tells the story of when he learned things right so yeah he learned things outside of the chronology he learned them at different times and i thought that worked pretty well the one thing i would say though um

I wish there was more detail on a couple of things. And I know why there isn't more detail, but I'm just going to say I noticed it. I wish there was more detail about his falling out with Tom DeLonge and TTSA, the two of the Stars Academy.

because it's really, you know, like I said, you got a 30 page chapter on something else and you got three sentences saying why he left TTSA, right? And it doesn't really, you know, if it's a memoir, you're supposed to dig in deep and tell the hard personal truths too. And I think he was probably just trying to keep relations good, but it struck me as a little odd. And the other thing is,

We also know he's had a falling out with his former manager, Dan Farah, the director of Age of Disclosure. And I don't even recall that coming up in this thing. I don't remember anything about that. And that's less relevant. I don't care about that. But the Tom DeLonge TTSA thing is important in the telling of the story of how UAP began to get discussed from 2017 on. And some of the key details are missing there.

Maybe Lou didn't want a lawsuit. You know, potentially, I agree too. That wasn't DOPSER. That wasn't the Defense Department. That's like the publisher going, no, no, no, don't put that in there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is just managing relationships. I, from a PR perspective, would even say that that's what it was. It was managing that and feeling that that wasn't the most important.

most important. But for us, I think who follow this story, we want to know what has kind of happened, you know, with TTSA and then like where it is now and are they still in contact? And yeah. And how did that happen? I think the

Big parts that Lou did discuss, though, was his commitment to be able to being out in California and making the decisions to work with this company when he's not used to working in the private sector whatsoever. So I think he does a great job explaining that and the mechanics around it and the struggle that he had and how challenging it was with him and his wife, Jennifer. And when they had to take off then at some point during COVID and live in their trailer. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Like, I think we forget sometimes, we do this all the time, you know, so many humans do. We forget where we hear people's story and then we're so quick to cut them up. And I'm not saying you and I, I'm just saying in general, if we put ourselves in that position, most people wouldn't do what Lou did whatsoever. They wouldn't go live in a trailer with their wife and be able to travel around to, you know, and dig their own septic tank and all those other things.

stand up for truth and transparency. So what Lou did, you

Outside of maybe what he's doing now, what he did there is so important. And I hope we do look back and we say thank you to him for doing that. And we hope that the rest of this information that he's given us in this book stays accurate or there might be new additions to it, but it stays in history. Hopefully it will stay as something being semi-accurate to him being able to point a finger at, hey, go follow these leads so that the next generations can understand

follow more. Right. And I hope that's what this is. And I hope I'm not wrong. I hope we're, someone doesn't watch this podcast from 20 years from now. And it's like, wow, none of that book was true. And I hope that's not the case. I don't think that's going to be the case. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be a historically important book. One other thought though, as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, in our last and first episode, the one about the believer, which was the story of John Mack,

I recall most that you and I both kind of at the end of it said, look, John Mack's an important guy and he was an intelligent guy and he did some important things, but I didn't like him very much from the book. I didn't like him. Right. I just he was cheating on his wife, cheating on his girlfriends. We didn't like him. Yeah. I like the guy in this book.

I like the guy rolling up his sleeves with the septic tank. I like the guy overcoming the sort of negative programming that his parents threw on top of him. I rooted for him to not only survive and thrive personally, but I rooted for him to figure out how to get this information out.

you know, he's, he's on the inside and he's full of there. There's the, the, the issue has been covered up basically for 80 some years. And here's a guy who's audacious enough to say, I'd like to do something about that. So I came, I came away just thinking to myself, he's a, he's a pretty good dude. You know, I mean that I, and, and, and the one thing I just kind of want to get in before we close, cause I know we have to close, but

You know, I started my career as a journalist. You know, I was a TV reporter in a couple of, in Oregon and Arizona. Then I became a CNN correspondent for a while. And I'd say conservatively, Chrissy, in all those years doing that, I must admit two, 3,000 people, you know, either on the best day of their lives or the worst day of their lives, where you look them in the eyes and you have to make an instant snap judgment. You have to say, is this person telling me the truth or are they,

you know, telling me a self-serving lie. So for example, I've interviewed murderers on death row who profess their innocence and you know for a fact they're not innocent, but they're going to go to the death, to the electric chair professing it, right? And you start to get a pretty good sense about human nature. I'm not saying that that

Trump's facts or anything. I'm just saying, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of whether the essence of a person is good or bad, you know, or, or reasonable or unreasonable. And everything I know from my experience in life tells me that Lou Elizondo is one of the good guys. And, you know, that's how I, that's the boat I'm on. You know, I just feel like

He if you're talking about the future, when this book might be looked at in the context of the other 10,000 UFO books out there, I think this will be a very important one. There may be an asterisk or two on it where people say this didn't turn out to be exactly correct or whatever. But overall, it's a hugely important book about a hugely important guy who at the end of the day seems like a pretty nice guy.

Well, I agree with you on that. I've spent time with Lou. He's wondered, he's so lovely to spend time with. He's a wonderful man, you know, as a woman, I can say for sure, you know, spending time with people like this in many different spaces, you, your female instincts of good or bad, especially with the opposite gender does come up. And then I never came up with Lou. I felt very safe with Lou. But outside of myself, I think we do have to remember though, that

John Mack's book was written from somebody else, Ralph Blumenthal. And so this is written by Lou Elizondo himself. So he might not show all the bad things, right? No, of course not. Right. So when somebody else writes a book about Lou, there might be, I shouldn't say bad things, but things that he decides not to tell that somebody might write another book on that and show light into other aspects of his life too. We're not perfect. All of us have our own challenges, including Lou. But I will say that

I know Lou is trying to do his best and that's how I should say it. I don't know and say, I know that he, I know he is in context of what I see he's doing his best and we make mistakes and we should all be accountable for those mistakes. But you do see a man that's been trying for a very long time and he's,

We know within this book, if this is fully accurate, everybody from Jay Stratton, along with Christopher Mellon and Senator Harry Reid, they all knew that Lou was going to go forward. That was the strategy. That was the tactic. He was going to be the forward-facing person in this form of disclosure. And if that is accurate, we'll see when Jay Stratton's book comes out.

you know, with, with his side of the perspective, but that's what was agreed upon. And Lou did do that and he's done it, you know, man, with what he had and little ammo, he did it. And I'm, um, and I'm happy he did. You know, um,

Concluding thought here, my first concluding thought is your image is frozen. So I don't know if we lost you or they're still with us. You are. Okay, good. There you go. You're back. Okay. Whether the opposition is organized or homegrown, Lou Elizondo has been attacked from almost the beginning as if he's some kind of disinformation agent, right? Right.

And I just can't get my brain around that one. What kind of clumsy disinformation campaign could have him say the things he's saying in this book? Why would you, why is that a disinformation campaign? That doesn't make any sense to me. If it's a disinformation campaign, you don't, I don't think you'd want a guy that was working on the inside, writing all these specifics, uh,

that many of them can be checked out right now. So I don't understand that. I don't think that's what it is. That means everybody is a disinformation agent then. If Lou Elizondo means, because everyone attached to AATIP and everyone attached to the UFO task force would all be disinformation agents. That's one massive campaign, if that's the case. And we're all going to get wonderful reparations across North America if that's the case. You know, I don't think that is.

I don't think so at all. But I think he's a counterintelligence agent. Yes, he is. And that has to always be taken into account. So you have to say, all right, well, if that's the case and he's just on the payroll and he's just doing the bidding of higher ups, to what end? How is putting this information out

useful in putting it back in the box. It's not. What it might be useful if somebody was putting this out would be to say, look, this shit's coming down. We're going to have to level with people sooner or later. So here's a little bit to throw out there on the fire and get people talking about it. I realized that the one thing we haven't spoken about, and then we, I guess, do have to wrap this up, but he keeps getting attacked over the threat narrative.

right? People think that he's just like saying it's, it's all bad. We have to be, you know, that, that, and he's promoting a threat narrative. I just don't buy that from this. He seems fairly reasoned and modulated about that. He is simply saying, as I understand it, um, you should have your eyes wide open. If somebody is hanging around your nuclear sites, uh,

Be aware of that. You know, if they're turning off your nukes, you know, yeah, maybe they're doing it to save the world, but they could be doing it for another reason. I think he's just saying we need to get more facts. I don't sense that as disinformation. To me, that feels like that's how I feel. I feel like I'd like to know more of these facts. And I don't know where I first heard him say this. Maybe he said it to me. Maybe he said it to somebody else. But he said he knows I have a daughter. And he said, well, you have a...

He may not have said this to me. I may be conflating that. He said it to somebody, but I remember it in the context of having a daughter. He said, someone, if your daughter calls up Uber and the Uber driver comes over to your house, I mean, to pick her up. And as she's getting in the car, puts his hand on her shoulder and pushes her in the car and closes the door and then drives her to another location besides the one that she thought she was going to.

That's a problem. You know, the first is, you know, a physical attack. You know, it's illegal. And the second is a kidnapping and that's illegal. So I think what all I guess I just want to cut him some slack on the threat narrative. I've heard him speak about it often and he does not come across as a fire breathing guy on that front to me. Oh, and the other reason why they use it as a national security threat.

tagline is for the fact that it wouldn't have been taken seriously if they didn't put it under national security because a is counterintelligence and anyone this brings up their red flags and they go hey this is a national security concern but for anyone to take it seriously through government anywhere even the media it had to be framed like that which it potentially could be

But to push the conversation forward, that's how they had to frame it outside of UFOs. And going back to Helene Cooper's piece with Lou Elizondo and Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie Kane in 2027, the earmark of the 22 million. 2017. Sorry, 2017. My fault. 2017, that earmark of that 22 million was actually what Helene Cooper cared about most. And UFOs just kind of came with it.

And I remember speaking to Christopher Mellon about this because that's what he said she cared about. It wasn't so much as UAP. And he was kind of like, well, UFOs is a little bit bigger here is the lead story. And she was like, no, the 22 million missing is more important for us. And that's really what pushed it through the finish line in 2017 for the New York Times to push it. So...

To move a conversation forward, sometimes in a PR tactic, you do have to bring in other aspects. And that's what they did, but they weren't lying. They were using it from a national security perspective so that people would take this seriously and see that this is actually going on. And we wouldn't be here...

now if they didn't. And this is exactly what we do in Canada too. The Canadian chief science advisors are doing the exact same thing. We're looking at a national security perspective and we're also looking at it as pilot safety. And that's exactly what Ryan Graves and Lou Elizondo and everyone else is doing is saying this is important and we also need to protect our pilots commercially and the ones that are actually fighting for us and our freedoms.

Well, as we round the corner to the end, do you have any concluding comment that you haven't got in to talk about this book or Lou that you want to get in? The only thing I'll say that I love the most and I wish...

We had more evidence on this was Lou Elizondo and his remote viewing abilities that he says. I would like to see him do that. And I'd also like to see some of that other evidence. I follow remote viewing. I think it's fascinating in so many ways. We know that the program actually did happen within the CIA program.

And the question is, and I think Lou is still wondering, is if Hal Puthoff and everybody else was actually looking for him to actually be a remote viewer and stay within any type of program that the government might have had outside of him moving, working in UFOs, right? But overall, I would say get the book. If you haven't, read the book, listen to the book.

Buy a mug. Buy a mug. We are going to have to figure out. We promise you, folks, we're going to figure out how you can get your hands on a mug because everyone's going to want a mug before long, right? I mean, so my final thought would be this. My takeaway is Lou Elizondo is exactly who he says he is.

He's not somebody else. He's not in disguise. He's acknowledged who he is. And because of that authenticity, it's important to remember that this book comes from an authentic place. It's not perfect. Not every fact can be checked out with multiple sources, but it's authentic.

And that's what touched me in the reading of it. And then finally, Chrissy, besides saying we got to get a book club coffee cup in everybody's hand, I just want to tell you folks, next time we're going to be doing encounters. And boy, does this...

have a long title. It's called Experiences with Non-Human Intelligences, Encounters, Explorations with UFOs, Dreams, Angels, AI, and Other Dimensions. What I particularly like about it is it's kind of small. It's got fairly big type with a lot of white space. And I can probably read it at the last second like I used to do in college. So I'm pretty happy with that concept. And I will remind people too, they can go to Project...

bookclub.net remember the .net to be able to buy a mug follow us learn a little bit more about Bryce and I if you've just come across this podcast subscribe obviously and also take a look at the books that we're going to be reading we have John Mack is there we have Eminent there and then we'll have Diana Pasoka's book next and you can purchase those books too in the link so you always want to see what we're reading and what we're talking about you can go to the website and follow along there

It's been fun doing this, Chrissy. I appreciate it to everybody at home. Thanks for reading and thanks for reading with us. We appreciate it. We'll see you next time. See you next time.