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This is Need to Know. Real talk about unidentified anomalous phenomena. From Australia, Ross Coulthart. From the US, Bryce Zabel. I cannot believe what has been happening since I got back from Egypt. The volume of sightings of anomalous objects, weird objects in the sky. Let's call it that. Let's not even call them UAPs.
It's off the charts. I am besieged, overwhelmed, flooded, swamped by people sending me videos from all over the world. And it's not just in Bedminster, New Jersey, where people are seeing all these weird drones, so-called.
It's not just in the United Kingdom. It's India, Greenland, Russia, Kazakhstan, China, Japan. I cannot believe the volume of sightings that are going on at the moment. Something is showing itself in our skies. And I'm told...
I can go into this in more detail when we talk in detail, but I'm told we should defer to the official line that these are drones. But I find that hard to swallow. A lot of people are seeing very weird things in the sky right now. They may not be displaying the so-called five observables, but the sheer frequency, the brazenness, and the way that they're able to operate with impunity at the moment...
It just baffles me that after, I think it's what, 16, 17 straight days in the United Kingdom of drone sightings over sensitive Royal Air Force bases, none of these objects have been reported to have been brought down. This is really strange.
It's really strange. And by the way, let's just talk about drones right now. Let's go full Monty into the drone zone. But I do want to come back later because you've just come back from Egypt, which is not something people do casually usually. So I'd like to hear what your story is. And I've just come back from the Seoul Foundation Second Symposium, and that had a lot of interesting things in it. But let's go back to drones. I find it highly hard to believe that
things are going on as sort of calmly as they are in that we're not, we're not actually talking about the fact that these things, whatever they are, call them drones, call them UAP, but they're operating without anybody trying to shoot them down. We shot down a Chinese weather balloon, uh, in 2023. Now, if these things are going on 15, 17 days over, uh, military sites, where's the shoot downs. And also, uh,
These things have lights on them and they're big. One of them was the size of a house. They've got a lot of car-sized drones out there. Okay, let's ask ourselves, most plausible explanation, Russia, China. Okay, those are adversaries. If they were flying drones over our military installations, that by itself is...
I think it is a declaration of war, practically, because you're not supposed to be on the other guy's territory doing things like that. That traditionally is a very bad thing. And if you were Russia or China and you were flying these things over us, why would you put lights on them? I don't understand that, which would leave sort of a more anomalous explanation, in which case I'd say, all right, let's go forward.
full ET and say, it's a NHI of some kind that is increasing some kind of oversight or interdiction or whatever you want to call it,
Why are they doing it right now? Why is everything up in what we call flat zone, where it seems like, as you pointed out, Ross, and by the way, you've got the emails to back it up. These things are being reported all over the world at once. So if they were Russia or China, for example, why are they flying drones in all the places you just mentioned?
made, made mention of. I just, none of this, this is a math equation right now with too many variables in it. And I'm a little confused, but maybe you'll straighten me out.
Well, mate, I truly, I don't think we're getting a straight answer from the US Air Force, the Pentagon, the people investigating this phenomenon. I think you're right. I think that certainly if it is foreign adversaries, they wouldn't want to say that China or Russia or whoever it is, is operating drones over some of the most sensitive military airspace in the world. Places that have got, we know, very certain there's very likely to be nuclear weapons
If I was Britain or the US, I'd be pulling back on making a declaration that it is China or Russia, because the moment you do that, you're basically preempting. You're essentially assuming that it's them and you're running the risk of being accused of escalating to a confrontation.
But I think you should add to the fact that just a few weeks ago, there was that Chinese registered vessel, which is almost certainly a Chinese PLA army vessel, which was caught snagging its anchor on Internet cables in the sea off Scandinavia. And it severed Internet connections across Scandinavia momentarily.
And the circumstances under which I understand the forces, the ship has been detained, but they haven't yet boarded the ship is again because of the sensitivities about being directly confrontational with China and or Russia, because there was a Russian national on board as well.
There's something going on, and clearly the intelligence services and the defence communities do not want it to be reported to be anything other than drones. And that's what I've been repeatedly told by my intelligence community sources, that these are drones.
And moreover, the claim was made that these are Russian organized crime gangs operating drones at the behest of the Russian government to spook the British and the Americans. And I mean, I take your point. Why would they do that? Why would they put drones which...
can be shot down. I mean, there's a company that's just relocated itself here to Australia with a subsidiary called Anduril Technologies, and they do really clever anti-drone technology. They can do high-speed engagements with UASs over sensitive military airspace, and they can knock objects out very, very quickly. And as you rightly say, that hasn't happened. So,
So my concern is we're being fed a line yet again by the intelligence community. It's a consistent line. And in many ways, the aggressiveness with which it is being pushed is starting to make me suspicious that there's something more going on. Add to that the fact that literally, I mean, as I've been talking to you, I received an email from somebody in India who's telling me they're seeing these things over Indian facilities as well.
Something is happening. Something is showing itself over sensitive military facilities, especially facilities where there are more likely than not nuclear weapons. And, you know, I'm not saying it's UAP. I'm not saying it's non-human intelligence or aliens.
But I think we do deserve an explanation. And as you rightly say, the fact that in February 2023, the whole country of the United States went into hysterics when one Chinese balloon floated into US airspace and they sent F-22 fighters with sidewinders to shoot it down. And then there were the three other engagements in ensuing days. It became a major national security flight safety issue.
Why is this issue being so played down in the media when clearly people are gravely concerned? Bedminster, New Jersey is a hotspot news nation, the network I'm working with. They've secured quite extraordinary vision of these objects over New Jersey, and nobody has an explanation. Why is this question not being asked at Pentagon press conferences? I find it bewildering.
It is bewildering. I don't profess to know as much as I don't get, you know, I don't get 30,000 emails when drones are out there and don't send them to me now, but I know that you get them and that's odd because let's face it, I don't care what you call them and let's stipulate their drones. Okay.
They're drones. Fine. Get rid of the nomenclature there. They are drones and they appear to be all over the world right now. All right. The thing about a drone is a drone doesn't spontaneously come into the universe. A drone is used by somebody.
somebody has to be making and using these drones in the way they're being used. And for the life of me, just sitting there pondering this and thinking, all right, well, what would explain it? It's sort of like where I just went before, and I won't repeat that, but there just aren't a lot of good explanations for doing it the way it's being done. So I tend to
Even though it seems more logical that probably there's a bunch of drones being made by Russia, China, and us, and other people, there's drones everywhere. Everybody's got drones, but not quite like the drones that have been described, and also
not as visible as the ones that are being photographed and everything. And so you kind of get into that territory. It's almost like a movie. You watch Independence Day. They say, well, it's going to come with giant motherships over every city, and then they're going to blow up the White House. Maybe. But maybe there's another way that you announce your presence. I mean, somebody...
If all these drone sightings are indeed happening at the time they're happening, that you're getting emails about and that we're reading about in coverage from all around the world, then they're being deployed by somebody with some agenda. And
I would at least like my government, which I've armed with my tax dollars to build up a military, to respond to this and say, what's their best guess? What is really going on? I mean, shouldn't they level with us in some way? Why do we have to be on a podcast saying this is happening everywhere and not getting those
I don't know. It's frustrating because once again, it's that same old, same old where there's something semi-mysterious going on and they're not telling us what they know. They're not sharing their work. Now, I understand there's national security and obviously there is national security involved in drones over your military bases.
But they didn't have any problem showing us the shoot downs of the Chinese balloon. That was in every news report. We can throw the picture up right now. It's not a problem. Where are the pictures of these taken by our jets that have been scrambled?
More than a few people have intimated to me, Bryce, their suspicion, and it's only a suspicion, that this might be perhaps the gatekeepers, somebody who is in possession of technology trying to make a point before an inauguration of a certain president in the end of January. I mean, if you had a dark secret, if there really is a deep state that's hiding the existence of a retrieval program...
Wouldn't one of the best ways of spooking an incoming president that's determined to reveal it be to show how these objects can operate with impunity over sensitive military facilities? I'm just wondering whether there's not a double-double game going on here. Am I being too Machiavellian or too conspiratorial? You're actually not doing that, Ross, except that
Then you go, then your mind really does explode because I can just hear there's a certain group that thinks there's a big false flag going on, right? So somebody...
would have to be instigating this false flag of drones across the world. And for what purpose? Well, I don't think you put drones across the world to get people all ginned up about China, for example, or Russia or even us. You would only put them around the world with some other agenda. And that might be the one that you're talking about. But I don't know. We don't know.
Because I see the other thing that the implication that lies behind all of this is whoever it is that's operating these supposed drones, let's just use the nomenclature preferred by the Pentagon PR people. You know, let's say it's drones, whoever it is, if it is a foreign adversary, that's far worse news than if it's non-human intelligences or aliens.
Because the simple fact is, whoever it is, if it's Russia, if it's China, they are able to deploy these objects over sensitive airspace. And clearly, we're failing to bring them down. And I don't understand why that's not a big issue, why all of a sudden the Congress isn't calling. I mean, maybe there's a reason for the special hearing that's taking place tomorrow before the election.
the Oversight Committee. I know Dr John Kozlowski of ARO has asked to have a confidential briefing of the House Oversight Committee Friday. And so it's going to be very interesting to see, if anything, what comes out of that meeting, what was really being discussed.
Because if I was a congressman, I'd be basically demanding answers about why it is for all the trillions of dollars we've spent on national security defence, why we seem unable to defend ourselves against what even the Pentagon calls drones. Why is it good news that some of the most sensitive military facilities in the world are being buzzed by drones and we don't seem able to bring them down? I find it absolutely incredible.
Have you seen any information that would suggest that these drones are showing off any capabilities that seem particularly anomalous?
No, and that's the point, is that none of them are displaying the so-called five observables. Correct. What they are doing, I've spoken to somebody in New Jersey who told me that they had what looked like a 737, so a twin-engine 737 flying low over their house. But it was absurd for it to be a 737, one, because the lighting bear no resemblance at all to the navigation lights for a standard 737.
And two, when you looked closely, it was only about 150, 200 feet above this guy's house. If it was a 737, it would be screaming. It would be absolutely screaming. And you didn't hear any kind of jet turbine that was operating, whatever this object was. If there's a 737 above my house, I'm the guy that's going to be screaming. Exactly. I'm wondering if it's...
I know George Knapper, a good friend and colleague from the Weaponized podcast with Jeremy Corbill. I know George has copped a bit of flack for this, but he speculated that these might in fact be NHI posing as drones or pretending to look like aircraft.
And a lot of people have given them stick about it. But I think, frankly, there's possibly something to that because we do know that there are recorded incidents where objects have morphed, where UFOs have morphed into supposed helicopters or helicopters have morphed into UFOs.
I think the Cash Landrum incident is one of them where, you know, probably three or four decades ago, two women and a young boy witnessed what they thought were dozens of helicopters escorting an orb.
And to this day, the U.S. Air Force maintains that there were no helicopters of that quantity in that area at that time. Could it be that whatever these objects are, they're portraying themselves to us? They're altering their perception to us in a way that means that we see them as drones, but they're not perhaps what we think of as drones. I don't know. I'm just speculating. Right.
These are great questions, but I've outstripped my knowledge on this topic at this point. All I got is speculation and a sense that this is what governments are supposed to do. They're supposed to tell you what the threats are. I mean, that's why we have military, so I'd like to know. By the way, have you had any of these in Australia?
Yes, I've had people report to me that there have been objects seen over Pine Gap, the most sensitive base that the US occupies in the world outside of the continental USA. Pine Gap is one of the receiving stations for data from outer space.
Listen, I don't think we should go much further without also noting for the purposes of the historical record, and this is not, this is not an endorsement. It is an observation. I don't think we should escape noting the historical fact that in the last few weeks since he was elected president, since we did our last show, Donald Trump, the incumbent new president to be elected in on 20th of January, has appointed as deputy
DNI Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard,
He's also appointed John Ratcliffe as the CIA. And you've also got Nash Patel as the head of the FBI. And as you would know, Bryce, if there's one thing that distinguishes each of those people, it's a statement that they have all made that they are determined to get to the bottom of what is the deep state, who are the people behind the so-called deep state.
And a number of them have expressed interest in uncovering the UFO mystery. And you left out only one big name, which is Marco Rubio. Absolutely. Because here's Marco Rubio, senator from Florida. He was on the Senate Intelligence Committee. He still is until he's confirmed for this new job. But he's the guy that said, you know, I actually kind of hope that they might be...
in HI, because if they're China or Russia, then they have so much better tech than us. I'd be very scared. So he's really his mind is open to this issue. He is, of course, nominated to be secretary of state. And as opposed to some of the other nominees, which may face some confirmation troubles, Marco Rubio is going to get that job. I mean, I do think one
Yeah, yeah. I just want to make one point because what you just said then really emphasizes something that I've been meaning to say.
The implications of this are quite right. If Marco Rubio is right, if the Chinese or the Russians have developed technology that is far in advance of what we have to the point where they're now feeling that they can demonstrate that they can put drones over sensitive military bases with impunity, I just wonder where that technology came from, Bryce. Wouldn't it be an irony if they developed it from, say, NHI technology?
And wouldn't it be a terrible irony if the reason for the secrecy, the reason that the United States government has lied for so many decades to the American public and to Congress and to successive presidents was to keep the secret so that they could develop this technology in the black? What if that's all blown up in their face? And what if what we're actually seeing over these bases at the moment is lies?
And they're saying that this is Russian or Chinese. They're saying that these are foreign adversary drones. So the implications of that are we can't shoot them down. Whatever this technology is, we're not able to engage with it. We don't seem to be able to interdict them. There's amazing vision of an F-16 jet over, I think, Raff Lakenheath in the United Kingdom trying to engage one of these Orb Cs.
shaped spheres and it takes off at high speed
in front of a pursuing F-16 jet, which I presume is moving near subsonic supersonic speed. Is that tape that you just mentioned, is it available? Can we look at it? Yes, it is. I think we could probably find it and put it up in this story. I mean, I just think- It'd be great if we could cover that. Yeah. I just think it's outrageous that this story is not foremost in the minds of every national security correspondent on the planet.
I just do not understand how these journalists... Wow, this house is cute. Can I really get in the game in this economy? I do have savings and I am responsible-ish. I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild, though? Could I actually score a...
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And it's funny, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the beginning, I made a statement like I thought it was an act of war. Just let's just deal with that for a moment. All right. You're the United States. Drones from somebody else that aren't yours go over your military bases and linger over a multi-day situation. If they truly were from a foreign power, isn't that an act of war to invade the skies of another country? Yeah.
So, so this couldn't get more serious in terms of the stakes. So it is completely ridiculous for the government to not be briefing us on a
more intense level. And it's completely wrong for the journalists not to be up in arms. At least you are. I like that. But I agree. Let's move on from drones. I want to talk about why you were traipsing around Egypt. Let me what are you auditioning for ancient astronaut, ancient aliens or something? Ancient alien theorists like Ross Coulthard believe. I mean, no, I'm just wondering, what were you doing there? Talk to me.
I've always wanted to go to Egypt and see it for myself rather than seeing it through the eyes of the antiquities department of Egypt, which is the way I've seen it previously. I've done the 60 Minutes journalist story where I've gone with Zahi Hawass, the head of the antiquities department. And he's assured me that this was the brilliant Egyptian civilization that created these beautiful pyramids and these beautiful statues and these beautiful stone vases. And you just glibly accept it when you're told that as a journalist.
But I had an opportunity. There's a good friend of mine, J.P. Haig, who's very interested in the esoteric, done a lot of research, spent a lot of time in Egypt. And he invited me to join a tour, not as somebody who knows anything about Egypt, but as somebody who could speak about UFOs to the team, the group that came along. And we had a ball.
It was fascinating. We literally went from Cairo down the length of the Nile all the way to Aswan, looking at the technologies that are revealed, not only in the pyramids, but just, I mean,
Bryce, there is no way that the civilization that we know existed at the time, 4,000 or 5,000 years ago, that is credited with building the pyramids or carving statues, 35-meter statues out of solid wood.
granite. There is no way that the civilization that we know from the archaeological record was only just making the transition from stone tools, stone and flint adzes to copper, very early copper chisels.
Copper is a very soft metal. Diorite is harder than steel. If we want to cut diorite granite, we have to use diamond-tipped saws. It's an incredibly difficult thing to cut. But whatever the civilization was that crafted these incredibly beautiful technologies, and you only realize this when you see them close up,
It was an incredibly advanced civilization. There's a statue in one part of the Nile, and you literally get off the boat, you walk into this temple, and you're looking at this face of a statue that's probably 30 meters off the ground. It's gigantic. And it's only when you actually look at the face and do the analysis that some scientists have done that you realize it is gigantic.
It is rendered out of diorite granite, but it is perfectly cut to within fractions of a millimetre. Now, it's actually symmetrical. How did any civilisation with stone, soft copper tools 5,000 years ago carve statues that are perfect?
And then you have a look at the pyramids. You're standing by the pyramids and all of the ratios that are expressed by the pyramids, for example, I think one of the links of one of the sides of the pyramids is proportional to the speed of light when you measure it next to the height of the pyramid. The placement of the three pyramids is very accurate to the position of Orion, I think, 10,000 years ago. There's so many of these mysteries here.
that are not explained by the contemporary record. And we saw this all the way through Egypt. And we were in the company of a very well-known and very respected Egyptologist who's trained with the main universities in Egypt. And each time when we came to these points where we were looking at these baffling pieces of technology, I'd say,
How did that civilization make that? And he'd just laugh and he'd shake his head and he'd go, well, a lot of us think that there was a much earlier civilization. A lot of us think that the Sphinx is much, much older than we give it credit for, that it's possibly hundreds of thousands of years old, that the pyramids are the same. And God forbid me for saying this, but it's highly controversial because, of course, it's
It's part of Egyptian archaeology to claim that the pyramids are part of the ancient pharaonic civilization. I think it's entirely possible that what happened was a human civilization 5,500 years ago came across these objects, literally wrote their names on them and essentially assumed them to be their own.
But there is no satisfactory explanation. I mean, I've done an interview with one expert who told me that there was a body found in a grave that dated back 14,000 years. And in that grave was a carved diorite granite stone vase. And that vase is so perfect, it's almost symmetrical. We would have trouble doing that today because these vases have got lugs on them.
And you can't use a lathe on something that has lugs, otherwise the lathe hits the lug. How did they render such a beautiful, perfect, symmetrical, micrometer-accurate object with such accuracy beyond 14,000 years ago? Human civilization was only meant to have started officially 12,000 years ago, my friend.
So the thing about Egypt that leaps out at you is that there is a mystery in plain sight. And I'm sorry if I sound like I'm plugging my book, but it really is. It's a conundrum that slaps you in the face. Well, I mean, clearly the one thing we can say is just even if somebody built these things long before we think they were built currently, um, it
It doesn't have to be NHI. It could literally be a human civilization that didn't make it to the next round. And we don't know. These mysteries are so incredible. But as you were talking, the one thing I thought I should at least as a baseline, because I think other people at home may be saying this, don't we carbon date these things? Can't we go carbon date a pyramid and figure out when it was built?
You can only carbon date organic matter. So you can carbon date the organic matter in the pyramids, but it doesn't mean that that organic matter was there when the pyramids were built.
And so what's interesting is what we do know is that the archaeological record, and you can see these tools in the Cairo Museum, the archaeological record shows the kind of tools that they had 4,500, 5,500 years ago when these objects were supposedly built. And we really did only have, at best, soft copper chisels. Soft copper chisels would melt. They would just fracture under the steel-like material
rigidity of diorite granite. There is no explanation for how those objects were built by the known human civilization of 5,000 years ago. You're saying all these things, Ross. I got to just ask you, what do you believe now? Are you telling me that you literally now think
Maybe you've always believed this, but are you saying these were not built when we are telling ourselves they were built, that they were built possibly many thousands of years earlier by somebody? Yeah.
Yeah, but I do think the evidence is overwhelming. And it's not just in Egypt. For a prior civilization that perhaps got wiped out, as people like Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock have said, the evidence is overwhelming that there was what's called the Younger Dryas Cataclysm, I think 12,800 years ago. And it's really interesting because even in Egypt, there's a place called Elephantine Island where people,
there's the most incredible incongruous object. There's a box carved out of solid, dark black diorite granite.
which is lying on its side. And it's in a quarry that looks like it's been exploded. And there are broken bits of rock everywhere. And in the middle of this quarry, there's this overturned box, which is beautifully sharply rendered in absolutely perfect 90-degree angle cuts into the granite. And inside the box are equally sharp 90-degree angle cuts. I
I mean, the only way we could do that today would be using a circular diamond-tipped saw and, I don't know, maybe some kind of water-cutting technology. I don't know how we would cut it to the accuracy that this box shows. But...
But nobody knows anything about why this cataclysm occurred. But what is interesting is that there are, at different points in the archaeological record, you find, and we were talking to people about this there, you find that there was clearly a layer of soot. I mean, it might have been a meteor or a comet or something like that that obliterated life or made it very difficult to live on the planet for quite a few years.
But whatever it was, you know, I wonder whether there was an earlier civilization that existed that got wiped out. Maybe there were a few survivors and then maybe the humans that emerged from the dark tunnels underneath. And that's the other thing, too, is one of the places that we visited was a place called the Serapium.
And again, it's been misreported that this is some kind of burial chamber. But what you see in there are these boxes, beautiful diorite granite boxes underground. And there is no explanation for how these gigantic granite boxes were put into this site.
And we actually know that they were put in after the tunnels were dug because one of the boxes is stuck in the middle of one of the tunnels. And there's just no explanation. Nobody has any knowledge of how these tunnels were built, how these boxes were put into this site. It's just a huge hole in the archaeological record. And what modern archaeology does is take the piss with people like Graham Hancock, who say that they suspect that there was a cataclysm. They suspect that there was a prior eruption.
civilization, but they actually have no answer themselves. They weakly assert that this building must have been done with stone adzes or copper tools. There is absolutely no way you could do what's being done across Egypt with these beautiful sites, these remnants of this glorious civilization. There is no way that that was rendered with just copper tools at best.
Well, I would just like to state for the record that my wife and I wrote the first draft of Disney's Atlantis, The Lost Empire. So I'm already on record about ancient civilizations and all that possibility. And they were living underwater, too. So that's interesting. Listen, let's move on. That's pretty cool, though. I mean, it makes me say we're still facing mysteries. Those mysteries...
have existed during my entire lifetime. Now we've got drones that we can't explain. It's, it's, you know, that's what we live with. And we don't get a lot of help sometimes from people that ought to be helping us.
I have a positive piece, though. While you were gallivanting through Egypt in a pith helmet, I can only imagine. There were plenty of gin and tonics. I don't know about pith helmets, but certainly plenty of gin and tonics and cold beers. Well, I'm sure it was fun. I mean, listen, there's probably a lot of people that are going, wow, I hope Ross does that again. I'd like to go on that tour with him because I'm sure it was fun.
a lot of fun. While you were doing that anyway, I drove up to San Francisco in the middle of literally an atmospheric river and a bomb cyclone and drove into that instead of away from it in order to attend the Soul Foundation Symposium. This was the second year.
Ross, uh, of course attended the first year. So this is the second one it's put on by, um, Gary Nolan and, uh, uh, Peter Scafish and, um, and others who have come together to sort of create this, um, safe space for people who are involved in this issue to talk about it. I just wanted to give a few of my highlights from that Ross. Um, first off, um,
It's not your typical UFO conference. There's nobody selling books or trinkets in the back room. There's no experience or sessions or anything like that. It's just invite only. There are about 200 people, I think, maybe in the audience and a Friday and a Saturday where they put on the conference. And it is.
Last year, it was at Stanford. This year, it was at the Fort Mason Center in San Francisco, down by Fisherman's Wharf. The high concept for me is that it seems like the Soul Foundation is like basically a, I don't know, a
an exclusive UAP debating society, 'cause it was very interesting. A lot of panels and speeches, but all with a different kind of take on them. And boy, was it jam packed. I wrote this down just so I could remember it.
The speakers included Gary Nolan, Peter Scafish, Ryan Graves, Leslie Kane, Tim Galadit, Eric Davis, Kirk McConnell, Jeffrey Kripal, Avi Loeb, Beatriz Villareal, I think, Rizvan Virk, Jonathan Burt, Eric Schrock, and Carl Nell.
people in the audience included Whitley Strieber, Deep Prasad, Chrissy Newton, Dan McClure, James Fox, Matt Ford, Jordan Flowers, and, uh, Marieke von Rennenkamp. So it was like, it was wild. I mean, sometimes the breaks were more interesting than even what had just preceded it because you had all these kinds of people downloading their thoughts about it. And, um,
I thought it was very interesting because a lot of people have been that I made contact with and they were all wonderful people. I mean, I didn't mention half the people that I had the opportunity to speak to were all wonderful. And it was it was so great. But I asked a lot of them. I said, if you're if you know me from need to know, what are you listening to the podcast or what are you doing? And they said, no, we're watching the YouTube. The vast majority were watching the YouTube. I bring this up only to say that yesterday, two days ago, while I was in
going to a coffee shop with my daughter. And I was explaining that they're all watching on YouTube. We went into the coffee shop and this is what we saw waiting for us. So I take that as complete serendipity. And I will be eating this during the rest of the podcast to, to Lord it over you, Ross. But here's the thing. I just thought this was so fascinating. Let me just tell you how they started it.
They sit down to start this thing. This is Friday morning. And it starts with a discussion between Leslie Kane and Ryan Graves about the possibility of mid-air collisions between commercial aircraft or military aircraft and UAP, which is, as you know, after my own heart, because along with former UAP
Sony president and CBS president Jeff Sikanski, I've developed and have been writing the scripts for a scripted podcast called Undeniable, which begins with a midair collision between a commercial jet and a UAP. So this is on my mind all the time right now. And this was so fascinating to hear them sort of talk about it. And what I realized, by the way, was that
I started out with good intent. I thought, "I'm just going to sit here and I'm going to take all these notes." I was exhausted after this first session. I stopped taking notes. But during that session, I did make some and I thought it was kind of interesting. Brian told a story about a 737 pilot in South Africa who encountered a small black triangle at 500 feet distance.
And it so strange to him out because he felt he came so close to hitting it that when he came back, he self-administered his own drug test just to make sure that he hadn't somehow been turned onto a drug or something that would cause him to do that. That's an amazing story. I haven't heard that. That's incredible. And I just find, I mean, that's the kind of stuff where you go, well, that
That's interesting. And I have to admit, um, I'd almost want to do that to myself if I saw something so extraordinary as what people see just real quickly on that first one. Um,
Ryan Graves also said something that made me laugh. He said, you know, pilots' instinct is to, you know, want to talk to people about it. And there's no good place for them, or at least historically hasn't been a good place for them to report. They're told to report to civilian UFO organizations or whatever, or as he put it, your local law enforcement. And as he asked, who is your local law enforcement at 40,000 feet? Which I just thought was like...
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Because we've set up this bizarre system, right? Now, I just want to tell everybody that all this good stuff that we may or may not even talk about in this episode will eventually end up on the Soul Foundation YouTube site. Last year, it took them forever to get it up, but I understand that they have overcome the technology problems and are about to do more.
The only other thing I wanted to say about what their thing is, they said, Ryan said over 50% of pilots have seen something unexplainable. I mean, 50%. Okay. So that kind of goes in line with what we're talking about. And even a commercial airline pilot who Leslie Kane was trying to interview,
would talk to her, but he would not say the name of his airline because the stigma is still such that he felt that if he identified his airline, that would be the end of his career there. And she mentioned something else. Remember, she broke that. Well, I don't know if she broke it, but she wrote about it in her book, the 2006 O'Hare Airport sighting. And apparently there were 13 witnesses and none of them would go on the record.
Right? That's part of the problem we have.
I mean, I think what we need to acknowledge here, Bryce, is, and I've only really realized this by talking to people myself, is the level of intimidation. I mean, pilots do get intimidated. Ground crew at Chicago O'Hare Airport were intimidated not to talk about that incident. Leslie's absolutely right, because when I was writing my book, I was trying to make contact with some of those people as well, and I spoke to people on background,
And they testified that, yes, I saw a gigantic craft hovering over that particular gate. And I said, will you go on the record and talk about it? And they laughed and they said, no, no, it's not worth my job. And that's the issue is I think there's a duplicity going on at the moment. And it's not just happening in the public arena. It's happening in Congress as well. I'm aware of Congress people basically being told to pull their head in.
that there are people from the legacy program basically going around reminding congressional representatives where their bread and butter comes from and telling them to sort of stop asking sharp questions about the UAP issue. There is a close down going on. People are trying to shut this issue down. And I really do think whatever you think of Trump, and again, this is not an endorsement, he is avowedly determined to get to the bottom of the national security state's deep state proclivities.
And if there is a UAP secret to be revealed, I have a funny feeling we'll find out pretty quickly after January the 20th, whatever the hell it is. Well, I mean, it's a possibility. Certainly, he's got a lot of people surrounding him who may go off message and start talking about it. And certainly he might do that himself. Listen, just a real quick...
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One of the highlights that struck me, and this has nothing to do with UFOs, but Gary Nolan is kind of the guy in charge of it. So at the very first Q&A, some guy tries to ask one of those questions that's really a statement. And God bless Gary Nolan, he gets up and he says, turn off that microphone. And I mean, he...
This guy doesn't take shit from anybody, right? He's just like, turn off the microphone. Was that Jack Safati, an elderly man? Yes, it was. I believe it was. Yeah, I heard that story. I heard Jack got shut down. Jack's a very forceful personality. He's put me on an email list, which I cannot get off. It's like being invited to a party that you can't refuse to attend. I think that there is a little bit of that, and I believe it was
Jack doing that. But, you know, Gary just want, you know, he's a, he's businesslike here. He's just saying, look, we're not here to,
to all make a statement. We're here to learn from each other, but there's a way to do this. Anyway, I just thought, well, kudos to you. It reminded me back in 1980 when Reagan was running for president in the primaries, he had paid for some debate that they had. And it ended up with him saying to the people running it, I paid for this microphone, you know, and that made, and that was, and it's sort of like Gary Nolan was, I paid for this microphone. You will not abuse it, which I like.
The other thing that was a highlight...
And that's what I really like is that ultimately, I think we've all realized the only way we're ever going to get any kind of forced revelation of what's really going on is if we do the science. And if we prove what the government has its head up its bottom about continuing to deny the existence of a non-human intelligence engaging with this planet.
And the thing I love about Gary, and I think what Sol represents, is an attempt to genuinely engage scientifically on the data to prove what we all know is the case. Yeah. Well, he certainly showed he was...
going to stand up for not wasting people's time. And for that, I really appreciated it. On the second day, though, Ross, one of the things that I thought was very interesting about all the things they were talking about is it seemed to be that they were saying venture capitalists are already preparing for the golden age of reverse engineering, that there is money flowing into companies on the idea that soon some of this technology is going to be kicked out into the mainstream.
I don't know that's more than I know about. I don't know that that's happening, but they seem to be saying money is chasing that. And I thought that was pretty interesting. I only got to ask one question, by the way, and it was of a Japanese parliament gentleman. He had just lost reelection, but he was in the Japanese Diet. And he was talking, and it was hard to understand him and everything, but
He was there showing the flag for Japan. And I asked him a question that he wasn't able to answer, but I still think it's kind of a relevant one. I said, "Okay, we have all these cases where UAP have been cited over military bases, many with nuclear weapons. And given Japan's... First of all, do you agree that that's happening? And if so,
Do you think that Japan's rather unfortunate history with nuclear weapons gives it some kind of moral authority to lead on the UAP issue? I didn't get what I was looking for, which was an I don't think he understood the question or maybe I didn't ask it right. I don't know. But that was the first time it really coalesced for me. It's like.
There is a reason for Japan, for example, to be involved in this. More than anybody else, they appreciate that a nuclear exchange is nothing to have happen. And if these others are interested in our nukes, that's unfortunate. So I do think that's kind of interesting. And finally, the way the conference ended, it began with the bang and it ended with a bang. Another great two-person discussion at the end between Gary Nolan and Carl Nell.
And, you know, that was just fascinating to hear these two guys talk about defining a way forward because they're sort of taking on that, you know, the issue of what's going to happen. Is it going to be controlled disclosure, catastrophic disclosure, whatever? What's going to happen next? And how do we be a part of that? So it seems like their discussion has moved very much in the way that you and I have moved this discussion, which is we have moved beyond saying,
Are UFOs real? I get asked that all the time still and I go, well, of course UFOs are real. They're unidentified, they're flying and they're objects. So we already have our government at least admitting that there are UAP out there, that that's real. So it's a real phenomenon. And so now it's beyond trying to just prove that they happen.
But it's more like, what are we going to do about it? What do we know about it? And our conversation about these drones at the very beginning of this program illustrate we're not there yet. We're not there yet. So there's room for a sole three, four, and five in my view. But it was really, and I know you had your own experience. It was very useful. I enjoyed it a lot. And I met so many great people. You know, I think just want to come back to one point you made that there's big money coming into this field.
I'm not going to go into specifics, but I can tell you that there is. If the government thinks it can continue to hold the monopoly on investigating the phenomenon, that time is well and truly over because the science of investigation is now making it possible for
well-resourced private groups to do the same kind of work. And I think that's what we're going to see. Governments are in danger of making themselves irrelevant. And indeed, if they want to capture the narrative back and have any control over what is revealed, I think it's time for them to be on the front foot.
And I think that's why it's opportune that we're going into a period in the next month or two where, frankly, I think we are going to see potentially real change. Disclosure is a real possibility in a government where there is a determination to engage with the so-called deep state.
I have to admit, Bryce, when I first got into this story, I thought it was paranoid nonsense to talk about a deep state, to talk about a cabal of people that regard themselves as unaccountable to Congress and or to the president. But I now am very, very sure that there are a cadre of people who believe deludedly that they are able to operate under the authorization of a presidential executive order that
which puts them above accountability to Congress. And they believe on this flimsy legality that they are able to continue to do what they're doing with billions, if not trillions of dollars of US taxpayers' money. And I think a reckoning is coming, my friend. It's not going away.
We can only hope. And I guess we're getting ready to take this thing on home. So I put out one thing out there. On Friday night, they showed a special screening of James Fox's new film that comes out December 16th, The Program. And by the way, we started talking about Tom DeLonge, who is a real rock star. But James Fox is like a rock star of ufology. I mean, the guy, everybody wants to talk to him. And he's got... He's also a lovely bloke. He's a nice, he's a great guy.
Yeah, I really like James. Anyway, so we've both seen this thing now. I think you saw a version earlier than mine. What's your take?
I love the Hal Puthoff stuff, the enigmatic Hal Puthoff, who I think knows more than anyone about this whole UAP mystery. He plays a very key role. The Jay Sands story also gets a go. And I don't know what to make of Jay Sands because certainly I know he worked at Area 51. He was in the Nevada test range.
And he was involved in a counter-espionage role, basically monitoring the communications of people at the base, making sure that there weren't any secrets being leaked.
But he tells an incredible story about meeting literally a blue alien being by the side of the road and seeing the craft. And I guess, look, my only very gentle criticism would be that I guess I would have wanted to have known more from the people that were with Jay that day. I would have tried, and I'm sure James tried to do this. I would have tried to get corroboration to be able to corroborate more. Because it's an extraordinary allegation.
Yeah, it's a sensational story. James Fox told me that in the version you saw, Sands, his identity was disguised. That was not true in the final film that I saw, where you get to see Jay Sands and decide for yourself if you are buying what he's saying.
But it doesn't make what he says any less...
I mean, on one level, it sounds crazy, but he doesn't sound completely crazy. No, he doesn't. I mean, I can tell you I've spoken to people who say that Sands is a credible person. Yeah. I mean, he has said some pretty incredible things since, but I just don't know. And I look, frankly, I applaud anyone like James Fox, who's doing ufology documents, documentaries. It's blasphemous.
bloody hard. It's a really hard gig to persuade people to go on the record. And James is a hero in this field. He's done sterling work going back decades, often pushing himself close to bankruptcy to try and achieve it. And it's because he's passionate about the subject. And that's what we need right now. We need people with passion to come forward and start doing the digging. And
and full marks to James for making the film. And what was your take on the program? - Well, I would just temper people's expectations. The phenomenon was a phenomenon. I mean, it was a film, a documentary that really, I felt like referring all my friends who thought they were skeptics or didn't know anything, or I even made my family watch it 'cause it was that kind of thing. You wanted to say, look,
Don't just take my word for it. Watch this and tell me what you think. So the phenomenon actually does take you on that journey. I don't have a criticism of his latest film, "The Program." I simply have an observation.
There's a lot of product out there in the news. You're doing it on News Nation. It's being done in other organizations trying to cover UAP. And so there's a sense about some of the current stuff, and that's kind of where it picks up. So it's less unique. I mean, it's not quite as unique as the other one was.
and through no fault of its own. So, you know, some people will say, I've seen some of that before, possibly, because the hearings and all that did a good job with, you know, going through that. I just wanted to give a couple of quick highlights. So just so you know, James Foxx,
The program comes out on December 16th. It's on Apple. Dean Alioto has a new documentary called The Alien Perspective that comes out also through Apple on January 8th.
Of course, Investigation Alien with George Knapp is out now on Netflix. That's a great series, by the way. I really enjoy that. It's on Netflix, I think. It's fantastic. Yeah, it is. And it's a lot of fun. I mean, again, people pick it, but in general, it's very good. And Beyond is on MGM, so there's stuff. Darcy Weir has a new documentary out as well. So there's
There's a lot of stuff that's coming out, and I know that you've got stuff cooking at NewsNation that you probably can't even talk to us about. Is that correct? Yeah. Let the record show, for those of you who are listening to this rather than watching it, Ross is making a demure little smile there, and he's not telling us anything. But okay, that's okay with us, Ross. We understand that. So look, what we didn't do is what I thought we were going to do—
But there's just so much damage to talk about, which is you can always look back at 2024. You can look forward to 2025 and ask yourself, you know, what's you know, what those kind of things will be. I guess, though, just to take a quick goodbye to 2024, I would say.
Gosh, Elizondo's book, Eminent, was a big one for me because I really feel like finally he put as much meat on the bones as he was prepared to. So I thought it was a good book. It's like your book. I like your book and his book as the double whammy to give people, maybe throw in a Dolan book too or whatever, but it brings people along. The House hearing and the Senate hearing are a big deal. And by the way, I just wanted to put this out there because I may have
I may need to correct this. The rear admiral who we know, who's been speaking about USOs, Tim,
I sat there at a table and said, everybody pronounce his last name. There were six people. Three went one way, three went the other way. So I went up to Admiral Tim and said, sir, can you, you know, nice to meet you. You know, introduced myself and said, can you just clear this up? How do you pronounce his name? And he said, it's Gallaudet.
Yeah, that's right. And even though he said when his family came over or whatever, it was Gallaudet or closer to that, it's Gallaudet. So now I know. And I was just wondering what you're thinking. As you look back on 24, what do you think stands out as the big story for you? To be honest? Yeah. I think we are going to look back and we are going to say that the –
The autumn of the drones was a turning point because I know there's a lot happening behind the scenes that I can't talk about. I think this consistent sightings of drones over military facilities, I think I've done stories about it. You and I have talked about Langley and Eglin Air Force Base, and this has been going on now for months. The sighting of drones
What we are told are drones over sensitive, super sensitive military facilities. It sounds like nothing at the moment, but I wager it's going to turn out to be enormous. It's a way of pivoting from 2024 to 2025 because this seems to be ongoing. I think 2024 in future will be seen ironically as the calm before the storm.
I think very early in 2025, all hell is going to break loose. Watch. You heard that here first, folks. I mean, to say all hell is going to break loose in early 2025, you don't get a lot of wiggle room on that one, Ross. You know, by March of 2025, I'm going to be holding you accountable saying, okay, you said, let's hear it. I would just say, in addition to everything Ross just said,
These are the things that are moving through the system. You know, there are those kinds of things that just move through and can move this ball forward. But I just want to remind everybody, nothing has changed about the usual wild cards, any of which could change everything. A mass sighting. All right. You have a Phoenix lights today. That's a Phoenix lights.
That's a big deal. A whistleblower that actually shows up with evidence that can be analyzed. That would be a big deal. A midair collision, like we talked about, would change the game. A deathbed confession from...
an ex-president or somebody else would change the game. Some leaked videos or photos that have good provenance where you can actually see that they haven't been messed with, that would make a big difference. So would something from the James Webb telescope. There's just so many things in play right now, Ross, that I look forward to 25 years
Not for all hell breaking loose, because I hope that if all hell breaks loose, we handle it a little better than that may imply. But I think we are close to change. Change is coming. I agree. OK, should we say Merry Christmas and goodbye here?
Yeah, I hope we get an early Christmas present. Merry Christmas to you, Bryce, and to all of our viewers and listeners. And here's hoping that 2025 is a revelatory, disclosing and transparent year.
I think that's a great thing. I'm going to just throw a quick thing. I'm going to be on coast to coast AM with George Knapp on December 22nd, uh, talking about what's coming up for a 25 and what happened in 24, but I do wish you a Merry Christmas Ross from across the, uh, the, uh, sea here and hope that everything gets a little better for all of us. That would be a,
my best wish and I've done the best I could by putting my Christmas lights out here. Let's just hope there's peace on earth and goodwill to men. See you later. I think, I think that's the biggest issue. Peace on earth. I mean, here we are teetering on the edge of world war three right now. Let's hope we make it through to 2025. Cheers. See you on the other side. Merry Christmas. Bye.
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