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cover of episode The Cost of Whistleblowing, and Balancing Privacy with National Security

The Cost of Whistleblowing, and Balancing Privacy with National Security

2025/6/11
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The Brave Technologist

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John Kiriakou
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John Kiriakou: 我认为国家安全不应以牺牲个人隐私为代价。Tom Drake的案例表明,即使遵循内部流程举报非法行为,也会受到惩罚。9·11事件后,美国国家安全局(NSA)实施的“星风”计划非法收集了所有人的通信信息,违反了NSA的章程。尽管如此,由于缺乏公众的强烈反对,《爱国者法案》迅速通过,赋予了情报部门更大的权力。我没有通过指挥系统或国会监督委员会进行举报,因为我的指挥系统创建了中央情报局的酷刑计划,并且监督委员会秘密批准并拨款用于酷刑计划和秘密监狱计划,所以我只能向媒体求助。为了保护国家,并不需要收集所有这些数据。在德勤工作时,我们通过人力情报收集来正确地完成工作,例如在酒吧和男厕所里收集情报,或者从竞争对手公司的会议室里获取机密文件。在没有大规模互联网监控的情况下,我们通过绘制与Abu Zubaydah有联系的人员的电话号码、电子邮件地址和实际地址,最终缩小了他的位置范围。FBI不通过法院申请搜查令,而是直接从互联网提供商处购买数据,这使得法律保护变得无效。

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Chapters
This chapter explores the false dilemma of sacrificing privacy for national security. Using the example of Tom Drake, a whistleblower who faced severe repercussions for objecting to illegal mass surveillance, it argues that targeted intelligence can be effective without compromising individual privacy. The chapter highlights the misuse of power and lack of accountability in government agencies.
  • Targeted intelligence can succeed without mass surveillance.
  • The Patriot Act remains in effect despite its controversial nature.
  • Whistleblowers face severe consequences for reporting unethical practices.

Shownotes Transcript

John Kiriakou, former CIA officer and whistleblower against the agency’s  torture program, discusses his extensive background in intelligence, the evolving role of technology and AI in intelligence operations, and the balance between privacy and national security. John details his experience with the CIA’s torture program post-9/11, and the consequences he’s faced for exposing these practices. Key Takeaways:

How targeted intelligence can succeed without mass surveillance, and how national security doesn’t need to mean sacrificing individual privacy

The evolution of drone warfare in military options, and how its crossed moral lines

The dangers posed by AI in intelligence, and the need for ethical considerations in the application of AI

The current state of the US Patriot Act, and the implications of technology in media

Guest Bio: John Kiriakou) is a former CIA officer, former senior investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and former counterterrorism consultant for ABC News. He was responsible for the capture in Pakistan in 2002 of Abu Zubaydah, believed to be the third-ranking official in al-Qaeda. In 2007, Kiriakou exposed the CIA’s torture program, saying that the CIA tortured prisoners, had become official U.S. government policy, and that this policy had been approved by then-President George W. Bush. He became the sixth whistleblower indicted by the Obama administration under the Espionage Act—a law designed to punish spies—and served 23 months in prison as a result. Kiriakou is the author of eight books, including The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA’s War on Terror; Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison; and The Convenient Terrorist: Abu Zubaydah and the Weird Wonderland of America’s Secret Wars.

About this Show: The Brave Technologist is here to shed light on the opportunities and challenges of emerging tech. To make it digestible, less scary, and more approachable for all! Join us as we embark on a mission to demystify artificial intelligence, challenge the status quo, and empower everyday people to embrace the digital revolution. Whether you're a tech enthusiast, a curious mind, or an industry professional, this podcast invites you to join the conversation and explore the future of AI together. The Brave Technologist Podcast) is hosted by Luke Mulks, VP Business Operations at Brave Software—makers of the privacy-respecting Brave browser and Search engine, and now powering AI everywhere with the Brave Search API. Music by: Ari Dvorin)

Produced by: Sam Laliberte)