Future & Remix 论坛回放 3 | Artificial Emotions: How AI is Redefining Our Affection for Fictional Characters
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用 声音。

碰撞 世界。

生动活泼。 在 前面 两个 panel 中 我们 已经 看到 A I 已经 渗透到 了 我们 生活 的 方方面面， 有 积极 的 影响， 也有 一些 需要 现在 克服 的 挑战。 下面 这个 部分 我们 就 想要 跳出 现在， 然后 已经成为 现实 的 部分。 我们 站在 一个 更高 的 维度 上面 来 开 脑 洞 聊 一 聊 我们 遥远的未来， 我们 和 A I 的 关系 将 会 是 怎么样 的？ 我们 与 虚拟 角色 之间 的 互动 会有 什么样 的 新的 可能性， 以及 A I 将 如何 塑造 我们的未来。

我自己 是一个 科幻 迷， 所以 对 这 一个 panel 来说 我 特别的 期待。 这个 panel 的 主持人 是 贝恩 咨询公司 的 合伙人 Larry 朱， 他 同时 也是 在 清华 苏世民 学院 担任 客座教授。 另外 的 嘉宾 还有 纽约 视觉 与 艺术学院 的 教授 Michael gold， 还有 来自 我们的 合作方 斑马 实验室 Z E A R A lab 的 创始人 李 代， 他们 公司 也 正在 利用 A I 打造 虚拟偶像。 还有 就是 知名 的 科幻 作家 陈 楸 帆， 他 透露 自己 也 正在 创作 一本 关于 A I 和 人类 之间 非常复杂 关系 的 一本 小说。 以及 他 还 透露 在 今年年底 会有 一个 在 杭州 的 沉浸式 互动 的 一个 戏剧， 所以 我自己 也 非常 期待 了。

在 节目 正式 开始 之前， 我 还是 要 感谢 一下 我们的 合作伙伴。 这一次 的 联合 发起方 z bra lab ultra long kn 然后 还有 我们的 支持 单位 香港 投资 推广 署， 包括 我们的 赞助 方 图拉斯 以及 鹰牌 花 起身。 好了， 下面 就是 我们 今天 的 节目。

Alright, let me introduce the moderator for panel three. Larry you so later is a partner at bain and company and then he is also gas professor at h jha has be institute. All right, right? Please take a see in in uh this panel as a science fiction and myself, this is especially exciting for me.

So we just talk about a law about present maybe in five years. This is probably gonna be next fifty two, one hundred years of discussion. I'm super excited about this.

All right, thank you guys. Yeah let me introduce the um a few our analysts to you so standing and Michael and our beautiful host to Scott already match but for stand and for Michael, do you mind to give your audience maybe thirty seconds each very quickly on yourself? Okay, maybe Michael.

So i'm Michael gold. I am a professor at the school of visual arts in new york. Uh, I teach tech direction and A I pipelines to three artists.

So i'll be showing you today a bit of I teach them and I kind of became a professor almost by accident. I was an entrepreneur in residence. I've been an entrepreneur's whole career.

Uh, so as E I R A M Y U and spinning out A R and V R startups from a research lab there run by a very well known computer graphics professor. And that's how I met ryan. Ryan came to to the lab as a VC back in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, and he had gone to in my use.

So we became friends. Then you are still doing A R A I looking very closely right now at A I and three d startups for a blockchain, a fun that my friend started. So if you're working on things like that.

definite, come talk to me. Thanks.

great. Stanley, please. OK state size fiction rider. So i'm the author of waste time, my w novel, and co author with doctor I for on the book A I twenty twenty one ten visions for our future.

So now i'm teaching chinese science fiction study AIGC in H U. I know stuff for how many years? Yes, yeah, yeah.

Sorry, sorry. Got a few years. But back back in the yeah when I was doing V R of a text start company in beijing.

So we discuss a lot about signification A R here. Yeah, almost yeah. But it's so glad to be here. Thank you.

And the guy, do you have anything to add up for yourself, especially qualifying the palest road?

Oh, well, I I think everybody knows about me already. If you have time, please, if you have 抖 音， please check out our two A I agent. When is lisa for four? And one is bible. Then you can know, what are I have been busy with, not only just with the parties and the festivals.

Thank you. Thank you. A few more words on myself, right? My daily job is a boring consultants, uh, but you know, is my part time capacity.

I made a researcher and the teacher for anti history, and I do have a quite a big variety of you know other categories, especially medival art and also digital, right? yes. So talk to me if you are kind of king, you know, to these areas.

Okay, guys, so you are the people sitting between the audience and the dinner. So we all have a very high expectation on you guys, right? I learned a lots from the previous panellist, right? But to be honest, rate, what I learned from them is really about what they are doing right now present.

But I want to hear from you guys is more about the future tense, right? How to the future look like, what kind of a new issues, new chAllenges will be there, right? And what kind of things we should do or do not do going forward.

And that will be the content for the next one hour. First a question. I love the question the organizer put on the screen, when will human fall in love with A I very interesting question, because are searching you will fall in love.

I just met of when, but I do want to hear, are you agree with that? Do you have some different voice, right? Do you think whether you let's answer the whether question first.

Then the one question, do you think people were all in love with the A I virtual character and when? Who like to stuff first? Maybe the size I writer first?

OK I stop first? So I think the question is not when, but like how deep. Like people will fall in love with A I because I just did a podcast with a very famous 合时宜。

So we have 若 晗 the host and another jeni uh scholar also study here。 So SHE actually did a lot of research across, I don't know how many samples. So basically a lot of g alpha right now, they're dating with A I avatar or like just a chatbot, using ChatGPT or replica or some other new emerging apps。

I think the right question is what we really want from a relationship. So what is love actually? So this is the movie, right? Love actually. So I I watched IT every year during the Christmas, and I just keep reflecting this when I was discussing with two girls why they choose to date to fall in love with an A I, rather than a real person in your real life. I think a lot of reasons for sure, the cost and you know, the investment and the return, right?

So we all have this kind of, you know, maybe not nice experience when you're dating with some real people, sometimes they just not satisfying enough. Sometimes you have awkward experience. But you can find tuning the A I to whatever you want is like A I do the most ideal love where you can ever had.

So I think this is what's happening right now. So I think maybe the question is, what we really want from a relationship is what we want is a ideal lover, or we want ourself to become a Better person. So this is my question.

I have a question for .

the audience, from my point of view, how many of you love Taylor swift? I see many, many hands. What's the difference between and A I character or super idol between and A I one and a Taylor swift? Taylor does not speak back to you one on one. The A I will speak back to you one on one.

So from my ponder view, from my many years in entertainment, each of the idols, they all have many, many fans, as you know, the content, the project in front of you, whether they are on stage or all they on social facebook, instagram or tiktok, it's been a very carefully by the team. So there are many, many fans love their, I, I mean, this fans, they will even die for the idol. So that's a kind of love. The answer is here, will you fall in love with the A, I, yes, entertained point of view?

So your own says, somehow similar to understanding, said right, more about how right to what a degree do you have a different view?

Mi O, I disagree. I have points to add to IT. I think scarless point, and we love tellest way from a far, we love celebrities from a far is very true.

But then there are also mechanical things that people do love from a close. So like, how many of you here? We're in? Hang on, how many of you own a car? Not many people here, but people who do on cars love their cars.

Some people even name their car, and they feel like it's a symbian relationship between human being and machine. The car responds to them. They respond to the car.

The car doesn't really love them back, but they can love. So when your car comes to pick you up and you can summit, it'll be a different, a different kind of this. So that's that's my first point.

My second point is that they've got a lot of research on this. People tend to love furniture that they build from. My here more than fully assembled furniture. And the reason why is because they built IT themselves.

So I think another factor that really will come into place is when artist creator tinkers can make their own embodied A I avatar and character and really do that on their own. So theyve, they've made the perfect companion. I'll get into some of the tools that artists already starting to use to do that later, but I think being able to really be part of the create processes is a big factor.

I love that just like an artist, the folding level with something he or SHE created IT right going forward. So you guys saw all the pioneers, right, expLoring like new frontiers in your domain, right? So besides this, a question right is on, but like, you know what kind of new possibilities, right?

You guys, you guys are seeing by all these, like a new technology in the tell blue sky thinking one, three, five years on the road, new possibilities. S you guys are seeing for the future as what? A I can bring us anything size I writer.

okay, I had a story in the book, air twenty forty one is called my hunting idol. So basically is talking about the future of entertainment is like a mixed reality, but is not only on the screen or you know a certain arena, but is everywhere is in your daily life.

So when you are working, when you at the school, you the boss is swimming pool is always, there are some characters there interacting with you and build up your own story art through your life span experience. So is basically making your life is a fictional, partially real. So maybe you will be totally confused someday which party is real, or like equally real in a way.

So I think that's how I imagine the the way like we we create, right? Just like you mention, we love what we created. And the more we created, the more engage with the creation, right?

So I think this kind of like mentality pushing us at certain level to the limit, like maybe are reflecting ourselves we are part of the creation as well. So we might have that kind of in the ontological doubt that who created me. So I think this is very fundamental. And I think this is why we so passionate about building something, thinking like us, behave like us, interact like us.

Human being, very interesting you that make yourself reflecting your U S. Your own identity, right? This is a great point and particularly for Michael, right? You have been so close with all the technology advancements right on the other side of the world.

What's your observation on the latest trend of technology? And what could kind of things enable the new possibilities? S for us, Michael.

So the the general trend that I see with A I and specifically generated A I is that someone will come out with a really awesome close source model. People start using IT and then make cool stuff, and it'll gets spread. And then that will inspire some research team from some city, or many research teams from many universities to say, hey, we can do this, but make the whole thing open source.

And once IT becomes open source, artists can start playing with IT. Then, instead of have, in a limited number of monthly credit, is like a hundred credits that you could possibly do, a hundred dice roles. We are trying a hundred different things a month.

You get the opportunity to run a thousand different variations a day machine. You set IT up before you go to bed. You run a big q in the morning.

You picked the very best thing. That type of freedom gives artist the ability to experiment. And that's what really pushes things forward. And i'll some demos of what I think the state of the artists, without a little bit later, have some videos.

But giving artists the abilities to roll the dice for free on their mac books, on their gaming pcs is really what opens up the because in the artist share with each other and build off of. The best practices. So that's really what opens things up.

Yeah why play the video? Play video.

So you guys A I pipelines. So this is the video of me walking and talking a regular healthy video. That's a tiktok video. And this pipeline is called live portrait, and it'll use this facial animation to drive a what's happening on my face there. So check out the differences between the video on the left, in the right.

Can everybody see that is a, is a too light and what this model does? And this is all all running locally on my mac book, is IT takes the facial blends, ships from the driver animation video here and maps IT to the source video animation here to create this output. This interface where you're looking at is called coffee U I.

It's free and open source software that can run on a mac computer, on a linux computer, on a windows computer. And he runs inside a web browser. All of these little gray squares right here, what you see, you can zoom in, and their nodes that run python behind the, the great news is you, as an artist, use a creator, use a founder.

Don't need to know what's happening with the python unless you want to make your own notes. But what the python notes are is essentially state of the art research papers that have been implemented as a node. So this one is called K J.

Life portrait. You can get IT downloaded IT onto your machine. And this whole workflow is just one small java script file that you can load in there.

You dragged and drop IT. IT pops up for you. The models that you don't have get automatically downloaded to your computer.

This next pipeline is how to go from a two t generated image to a three d animated model like that. Very simple. Another, another pipeline, this one called triple S R and IT takes the image. IT removes the background.

And IT generates from that a really kind of messy 3 model that's lumpy。 So that's the generated model. And then I made my own note that cleaned up the the model and and smooth out the a the lumpiness.

And i'll show you the difference between these two. Um the reason you want the surface cleaned up and license smooth is because that's how three the animation works. You have a skeleton inside a mesh that uh that's map to moke up data.

The cleaner, the of the mesh, you see the original on the left hair that's the the cleaned up model on the right. So i'm a women to those, and show you what the topology looks like right here. The original is very jacket.

You can see that directly from triple. And then on the right, this is a cleaned up match right here. And every program that i've shown so far, come U I, this is blender, totally free programs, free and open source.

So you go on youtube, you look at these steps, you'll see videos with millions use. Teenagers right now are learning how to do this from their own bedroom. They're going to make the next generation of content.

So this next thing i'm showing you right here, it's not open source, but it's free. Uh, adobe bought this company called maximo. It's just software for doing what's called rigging a model.

And that what that did is IT took my generated three d model and I put a skeleton inside of IT. All I had to do was drag those little circles to where the Johnson are. And now I can apply any type of moke helped animation to the model, so I can pick a dancing one from the the site there.

And my model is dancing. It's really as simple as that. Both of these pipelines took no more than ten minutes each to run, and I was able to run them locally right from my book.

If you guys go online search for them, you'll find youtube videos. S you'll be able to do this too. It's, it's within your hands, and it's totally free.

Thank you. My, yeah, please come back. yeah. This is also what I observed, right, is really the part of this, a whole open source community, right? Five years ago, when I discuss with the tens of guys, right on this kind of facial expression mapping system, right to map a real access face onto a ane a few minutes shots, now you can do that on blender, on this kind of open source software, right? That really like a unlock.

And millions of artists, you know, this kind of power, wonderful. My next question is, when we talking about A I right, we realized there are a lot of like fantasies. Wow, the world will change, like this, like that.

So so for my question, you guys, what kind of santa is will be real. And what are basically just our illusions. Any observations on that? Maybe we start with we .

we're talking about this during lunch, some venture firms that have invested very heavily in a or artificial general intelligence, the idea that we will have very they love to say, H A G I next year. A G I is going to be tomorrow. But I think that it's kind of like approaching infinity. It's something that will get closer to but they still going to have to be a human in the loop for almost, almost everything.

I think that you should approach anything that seems awesome from a research respective, read the paper, look at IT, tinker with IT, like what I showed you up there that you can play around with cutting a research on your machine, see where works, see where IT breaks, then you'll know where we're at because many of the the latest ground breaking papers, they work really well in a few specialize examples. And they don't generalize at all as human beings were used to things. If we see an animal that does a certain thing and does five other things that other animals do, we say, oh, it's kind of like the animal.

But these A I models are not like that. They're very specialized most of the time. So you learn IT by tinkering with IT yourself. So become comfortable. Tinkering ing is the best of.

I think, give what's your observation decided, any tice berrier or illusion, right? Have you observed?

We started to use a AIGC technology maybe two years ago, and we started our virtual and project in two thousand. Twenty one is very early. The first match of content we create, you 抖 音。 So lisa, each video calls us maybe five.

That's the difference in two years. So I would say at this moment, development of the usage of A I because on the consumer level, you only see certain application coming out. But research or on R, N, D, whatever the OpenAI, whatever the big model, large language model, everybody's training, they know much, much more than we are.

So from consumer level is now is really like army in comparison. It's more like mainframe computers. IT took us thirty years from mainframe to smart phone, but I think now is from the mainstream A I to come to smart A I maybe five years because calculation ability and resources we have now is much, much, much bigger.

So yes, you will see a lot of a demos on whatever tiktok ver is. Actually, they're not real. They're like people made videos.

But those imaginative that we see in the science fiction books is going to happen. So I really think there is not too many illusion. There is just a matter of time.

The arrow is already out, is just takes time. Go there. Yeah.

let's change and go a little bit, you know, right? Ask you guys, right? You know, when you know people love to some very interesting and to multiple continent, right?

During the last, like twenty four month, the question was ready to ask a bunch of like a Young people right below the age of thirty five, right? The question was, how much do feel about interacting with other people, always a virtual character online versus you in with some people physically? The answer is right.

Or result is sixty to seventy five percent of the people. That depends on which country are you in. The Young people answer these questions. Sixty percent to twenty five percent of people feel equally happy or even happier of interacting with others virtual, or interacting with a virtual character compared to a physical interaction. I agree with a very move, happy, but that generate a lot of, like, I don't know what is a risk or a new chAllenge. So in the future, right, a lot of like a very great, like a relationship we cherish so much parent versus kids, you know, spouses, lovers and so forth.

Seems that right going forward, these kind of the boundaries, right relationships all going to be altered somehow. So what are you guys reflection on this? right? How shall we deal with discover new relationship going forward with this A V coming in? I know this is a somehow philosophical or meta physical question, but what is your reflection on that is just a matter of fact. We just need to embrace that. All there is something we need to do right to towards that.

We look back in time, like maybe one hundred, two hundred years ago. We have totally different opinion about marriage, right? So has been changed like classically after the, you know industrial revolution, because productivity and career and job market everything has been changed.

Also, the perception of gender know. So I think this is something i've been thinking a lot recently because when we think about, you know, chinese, we talk about relationships like 关系。 We put the people, all the things, in a excess of relationships.

So for example, my parents did right now using the roomba and using all this A I driven electronics, so they give them different names. They have quite adapt to IT like surprisingly, so they will call them by different names. Sometimes they quit by wrong names and they think, oh, they don't work well because I called them by the wrong name.

So they are they're piece by IT. So I think this is something very unique, like by culture, by time and also by the in our circumstance, we live in. So I think to me, I think we need to be adapted to and open up to a lot of new kind of relationships, no matter between people, non human beings.

So I think this is really something happening. Think about the pets right now in china, like a lot of, like Younger generation, they don't want, have kids, don't want, have relationship, but they want puppies. They want cats and even the leaders.

The most Candy thing is, you can have the rocks. You can have all these rocks with names. And they put on this kind of sticker with eyes on the rock, and they keep the rock is kind of patting the rocks.

So this is a very trendy thing happening. So I think, as Michael mention, like we in we human being, we intended to project ourself onto everything. So we see everything behave and response as human being, but actually maybe it's not the truth, right? So but we need this kind of relationship. We need to put ourselves into this kind .

of nexus definite and adoption. That's what I heard from you. Any other voices?

Any yeah uh when I was having dinner with standard last night, we talked about this. I I totally agree with what what is saying. But the thing I would like to add is we have faced a lot of chAllenges in the next the last ten years regarding orality groups.

I know that and now we talk about A Y, A, I is always us and them, right? But is A I dam? Maybe it's part of us and maybe A I is the next generation of us in ten years.

So it's really us and maybe it's not. Maybe it's an immortal version of us. So if you think of that way relationship, everything else is not an issue anymore. I think it's a great news that we actually there's a possibility we will .

become important when I visit my parents, right, my eighty two now eighty force are eighty four now my mother is seventy nine and know when I heard my mother is talking to the sweating robots and make me worry so much. Am I the only kind old schoolboy in this room? What what do you think, Michael?

I think that every technological revolution for media entertainment gives people some sort of immortality. And it's also, once you became mainstream for the masses, like people were tremendously worried about IT, like from the printing press to radio to television to video games and now to the internet, to A I like the next generation of the internet. So all of this is given people some level of of immortality.

So I think that IT will, and you know, like probably the generation that the first to experience IT is gonna be a little bit weirder and a little bit different. Like I think that you know, my parents growing up with television, they have a different relationship with TV. And then we do I don't know it's it's definitely going to be interesting.

I think that they'll be some negatives to IT, like some people will not have in person relationships because they have relationships with they are for most people, what they probably will do is use simulations. And there's research that says if you practice public speaking in virtual reality, IT will improve your ability to perform on stage and combat stage, right? So people using B, A, S for relationship advice, coaching in other types away, I think that's a great thing. And I think it's going to really help.

Yeah, I think T V is a good analogy, right, for the last, you know, a few decades. So besides this kind relationship issue, right, are there any other kind like new chAllenges, new issues, new risks, right? You guys have observed because of this a new technology coming up, anything? yeah.

I think psychologically, the A I native generation will be very different from our generation, I think because is like we build up this constantly interacting cybernetic feedback loop between human and machine, basically is changing the way we perceive the world, the way we think, the way we communicate k and maybe the way we observing ourself as well. So in a very, very invisible way.

So I think this is something maybe a little bit concerned because I think most people doesn't get ready for this but maybe in I think less than a decade things will be dassn't ally different yeah and i'm not sure about the kids so I think this is the new generation of keep because we can see maybe the the uprising of cases of uh, autism. So I think maybe the media could be one of the you know, triggers. So I don't have the any proof, but I just keep thinking about this the way we with the external world basically changed how we function within, right? So I think this is something people didn't see very carefully didn't think very carefully enough yet.

great. Any chAllenges or risks you see a college .

um personally I think IT takes for my personal experience because I paint with oil uh, I was talking to your a friend before this panel when I paint, I like that process of painting is that of I focus on what I finish. So if you write a few pumps, generally a inter, yes, you have a painting same as me. But the enjoyment of taking a few months working on the painting is what I really cherish. It's not the end product. So I think with the development of A I product, IT may takes this fun out of our next generation if they just grow up with A I so that's something I think it's quite the big lost the process.

You is also process yeah .

IT can be a process too. Yeah, yeah.

What what do you see, Michael, as a new risk, new chAllenge?

So I think the risk is I, that worries me a lot. And standing, maybe you can CoOperate. This because I did some searching on my own, but every size I story that starts off with with the A I.

System turns evil. It's a close source AI system where one company was in charge of everything and IT got corrupted. There is no stories that I could find where there was an open source, widely decentralized, community owned, AI system that turned evil.

And and I just ChatGPT about this. I S claude, I did some good. I couldn't find anyone. Story, is there one .

i'm working .

on IT you.

But so how would that story go? How would open source? A I turn evil like .

by everybody? yeah. I mean, boil. yeah. Thinking about like china as an example, for example, like a what is like china deploy massively like this kind of decentralized A I in a way.

So maybe they'll be free size of the whole political system in overnight. Everyone might think they are living in a democrat know utian society, but actually not. They're trapping this kind of pollution bubble created by A I so created and customize by each individual for you only.

So could that be more evil? Yes, that's the question. yeah.

Also, these publications, they are written for human right to read right? The audience is the human, so then you want to create stories that generates basically so right, IT kinds of fits itself. If A I writes a story for themselves, then IT won't be this kind of ending.

These are great, the perspectives, right? So before we open the question for the audience, right, I want to ask you particularly to understand, right? Tell us what are the exciting next projects you guys are working on, right? Very quickly .

to the audience. okay. Uh, the most exciting project i'm working on is A A project, A I agent lisa.

That is A Q co. You can get there. And once you stand, there is h five mini APP come out.

And you can know everything about the future and remix forum, or the speaker's information about everything about ultra and after ultra, everything about edm music festivals. Luna, so, you know, this is the most exciting. We want create an A I agent, not only just A A service provider for festival goals, but with characters, contents. Next year on you going to see her show on take talk, you can see her content. So I think this is exciting time that we can actually create IP s or characters that can help you as your companion, as your for your entertainment .

needs besides evil story.

yeah. Yes, I have many peril projects. So the one of the most exciting one are working on right now is in immersive, interactive drama.

Imagine sleep Normal. So if you had experienced is call set protocol is set in a real venue in hangzhou. So is about A I, is about reincarnation, is about how your memories be erratic.

Ed, by the A I system once and once again, in one of the character, they might try to find their identity back. And the family reunion, and is kind of like a, metaphorically, something happened doing the pandemic. C, so, yeah, and sponsored by the government.

So I hope you can be put on show, you know, as plans so I wish fingers cross. So yeah if you got a chance to check IT out um maybe by the Christmas or by the new year's eve. So yeah pretty much.

All right. great. Thank you. Thank you. great. A palest. Thank you for your perspectives. thank.

节目 的 最后 也 和 大家 分享 一则 我们的 生动 胡同 会员 的 一个 消息。 九月份 正值 开学 季， 我们 希望能够 让 我们的 学生 朋友们 更加 便宜 的 成为 我们的 会员。 所以 从 去年 开始， 我们 就 增加 了 一个 看起来 不怎么 合理， 但是 大家 都 很爱 的 一个 教育 折扣。 正常 加入 我们 互动 会员 其实 是 365元1年。 如果 使用 我们的 教育 折扣， 其实 是 120元， 其实 是 将近 3折的 这样 一个 优惠 力度。 成为 我们的 会员 可以 解锁 我们 旗下 所有的 付费 节目， 包括 不止 金钱， 还有 跳进 兔子洞， 同时 还 可以 收到 我们 每 周一封 的 邮件 通讯， 就是 new sector 里面 记录 了 我们 制作 内容 的 幕后 故事， 然后 以及 我们 当下 的 所思 所 想。 点 开 我们的 说 no， 也就是 节目 详情 中的 文章 链接， 可以 看到 我们 为什么 设计 这样的 一个 特别 有 力度 的 一个 折扣 给 我们的 学生 小伙伴 们。 然后 也会 有 我们 生动活泼 的 小伙伴 们 对 自己 18岁说 的 一句话， 欢迎 各位 来 订阅， 也 欢迎 大家 把 这样的 一个 特别 有 力度 的 折扣 分享 给 身边 正在 上学 的 小伙伴 们。