S6E03 硅谷徐老师｜对话 Lane Bess：坐火箭就像坐 Uber
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用 声音。

碰撞 世界。

生动活泼。 Hello 大家好， 我是 丁 叫， 欢迎 收听 全 新一集 what next 科技 早知道。

嗨 大家好， 我是 哈维 徐浩。 大家 可能 对 世界首富 贝佐斯 的 蓝色 起源 这家 公司 都不 陌生， 我的好朋友 labus 就是 去年 12月 搭乘 蓝色 起源 火箭 的 六个 乘客 之一。 Lbs 是我的 顾问， 也是 我 之前 创建 的 trust pass 的 投资人 之一。 今天 是 我在 虎年 的 第一期 节目， 就和 labus 这位 白手起家 的 亿万富翁 聊聊 他 太空旅行 背后的故事， 我们 也 聊 了 他的 人生观、 工作 观， 希望 对 我们 大家 在 生活、 职场 或者 创业投资 的 态度 有所 启发。

首先 我 的确 很 好奇 m bus 是 怎么 衡量 这次 搭乘 火箭 背后 的 风险， 毕竟 蓝色 起源 至今， 发射 火箭 的 次数 并不 那么 多。 对话 中 他 有一个 让 我 印象 深刻 的 看法， 就是 他 觉得 搭乘 火箭 要 承担 的 风险 和 打车、 坐 uber 差不多。 还有 为什么 他 带着 儿子 一起 参加 那 趟 太空旅行， 使得 他俩 成为 历史上 第一 对 父子 宇航员 n bas 衡量 风险 的 态度 也 贯穿 了 他的 职业生涯。 他 之前 在 A T N T 等 几个 大型企业 做销售 管理。 之后 作为 C E O 在 08年 金融危机 的 背景 下， 把 palada networks 从 一家 初创 公司 做到 网络安全 赛道 的 头部 企业， 之后 又 加盟 z ala 再一次 颠覆 安全 行业。 他 这一路走来， 对于 绝大多数 人 来说 肯定 是 不断 冒险， 不断 过山车。 但 他 自己 对 所谓 的 风险 有 蛮 独特 的 理解。 聊 完 以后 我 其实 并不 觉得 他的 这些 职场 决定 是在 做 冒险， 而是 扎扎实实 的 在 走 每一步。

最后 我问 到 他 现在 作为 一个 亿万富翁 做 投资 有什么 目标 时， 他说 投资 为了 享受， 为了 学习， 为了 帮助 下一代 企业家， 这个 我 蛮 认同 的。 虽然 财务 回报 仍然 应该 是一个 重要 的 指标， 但是 对 所有 投资人 个人 来说， 享受 这个 过程 很 重要。 我们 今天 的 话题 有 不少 有趣 的 内容， 搭乘 火箭 前 有 哪些 必要 的 训练 呢？ 他 这 趟 太空 旅程 俯视 地球 看到 什么？ 一个 不一样的 地球 有没有 改变 他的 人生观？ 他 又是 如何 评价 贝佐斯 的 航天事业？ 当年 palada networks 和 这 一代 的 该 走向 成功 的 背后 故事， 他 眼中 的 早期 风投 和 成长期 投资 的 区别。 好了， 接下去 就是我 和 lb 的 对话。

Hey, lin, how are you doing?

I am wonderful. It's good to be talking with you again, Harry.

So you on your boat.

I am a selling in the bahamas. Reflecting on life.

Okay, speak of reflecting on life. You just made a big move last december. The blue origin obvious. I'm so proud that I have a friend who actually went to the space.

To me, it's a big deal because, you know, you are only the world blue origins official flight like the third flight, right? And then so tell me more about IT in particular. I was wondering, right? You know, you are very accomplished.

The person you have done a lot of things. You know you are taking a risk a little bit in some ways. You know why taking the risk?

Well, I think the idea of going to space was something that was in my mind from childhood. And i've always been a bit of a risk taker, you know me both as a an entrepreneur r somebody whose looked to innovate technology for many years. And so it's a some degree. Taking risk was in my blood and fulfilling a childhood dream aligned with the risk taking aspect, and the, and that LED to my, take this wonderful adventure.

So you are risk ker. I know that for a long time, but how do you see the risk? Because to me, this is the third time someone, you know flew this spaceship. Like to me, there is a lot of risk, or maybe you don't see IT that way.

somebody who doesn't calculate risk. And I think this is somewhat inherent. People who get involved in startups, you have a desire, vision, a motivation.

And you don't factor in fear, you factor the vision in your minds eye, what you see. And ah in my case, I think I only really worry about this after what happens in terms of getting hurt. I never really feared the thought of going to space or what might happen during the process.

I thought of the chAllenge, the adventure, the sense of accomplishment. And again, this is, I think, very similar to those people that you've met in silicon valley who start companies like yourself. So maybe IT doesn't compute for people like us. Maybe we just look at the vision, the goal and and we're willing to take that. And maybe if we do get hurt, well, then we figure out how to deal with that afterward.

I think you actually had a Better risk of calculation that you just articulated. You mentioned that, hey, this is you know, even though IT sounds a risky, there are were four thousand people working for you to make to the risky. Tell me more about IT to.

yes, yes. So again, whenever you step into anything, you're doing some kind of a complex calculation. The factors you know and perhaps there are some factors you don't fully know, but through the calculus should come out with a risk factor that you can live with.

In my case, as you eluded to when I approached the opportunity to go to space, I looked at the fact that this was an industry that is made up of people who are investing heavily behind IT, whether it's jeff bassos or elon mosque or even Richard branson. And there are people who are really qualified engineers designing planning for contingencies, training, as in the case of training us as astronauts. And through that process, you essentially make some kind of body mental calculation.

And I kind of said this to friends of mind that sometimes in the past, when i've said on the tar market in airport, and I see we're delayed for an hour while somebody is is opening up some piece of the engine, I felt a lot less comfortable in those experiences than I did, knowing that I had a company, in this case, blue origin, dedicated and making sure they harder. The best people have the best, best plan, engineering and contingency. So to some degree, I dismissed some aspect of the risk.

And I think it's the same when you're starting a company, you're dealing with people who come to the company with a set of skills and invention capability. You put together a team of people that can execute, and you the risk, the situation. So there are some parallels.

So the way you look at IT is not just the one person taking risk, is actually four thousand people taking a huge risk. Fact, there are four thousand people taking a huge risk. They Better work their ass off and then making the work right. So course, it's not zero risk, but the risk is a lot less than just the one reckless person taking a risk. That's how you look at IT.

That's right. Look, in my mind, it's a lot less risky than stepping into an uber ride when you don't know anything about the driver, you don't know the quality of this car, and you have one data post, I need to get from here to there. And this is the guy who picked me up. That risk when I think a bit right.

right, right. In this case, right? You know, uber proper has a four thousand engineers working for you, right? Writing this platform and then stitch passengers and a stranger driver together.

They Better do a reasonable job. So it's not zero risk, but it's it's a calculate risk. So that's actually very, very interesting. So you have done this a blue origin in december. Do you want to go back again?

All is no question. Anybody who goes to this experience, it's life changing in many ways. Not only your perspective of life in our planet, the thrill that you've experience, something that so few people have been able to experience and in my cases has been documented being able to do this with my son.

So so many of these components of the experience give me great joy when I reflect upon IT and um you know make me feel fortunate that in my lifetime I would have the opportunity to experiences for me personally. I've already started investigating other types of industry related space companies, technologies, experiences I might have. So yes, I would do IT again and I would encourage any anybody to do IT as well.

You know, this is the first time ever, you know, father, son trip, and you kind of took your son over what what happened? Like, how did you like you just called him one day or like, 我我我， what happened?

Anybody whose apparent thinks about the experiences they can have with their children. And that happens from youth all the way to the point in time, which they move out, hopefully after a good college education. In this case, my career was my high focus area during a good portion of my children's youth.

And some lever realized that I had not connected with my children as much as I wanted to. And the reality is I actually offered all of my children if they wanted to go. IT was only my son who raised his hand.

So I was willing to take that, that volunteer. But for me personally, there's not too many times you get to make up for a lost time, and there's a lot of different ways you can try to make up for lost time. In my mind, doing something so powerful with my son was really going to be a memory, kind of a touchstone, that we could reflect upon the rest of our lives.

And this was one of those events that could achieve so much. And I feel blest that we were able to do IT together. And and I didn't at the time of bring can think that there was something so significant that we would be the first parent and child in space, but that was perhaps a cherian on top of the sunday.

Yes, yes. So you know, you kind of a lost sometime during the career building stage of your your lifetime and then you feel like you you made that up now that you you and your son have a far Better relationship.

Yes, yes. And IT was really on multiple levels. We not only made up that time, but as he has been documented, post the flight, my son affiliates himself with the lgbtq community, and he was actually Carrying a message for them and for me to be able to not experience this bonding with my son, but also give him a platform, was also a gift to him at his age, being able to essentially be the Youngest U. S. Astronaut in history, but also Carry a very special message that was a gift to him, which also added to the bonding experience.

because so he took the chance. This is a life changing part of the life changing experience, right for him. 嗯， can you tell me another aspect of the life changing? Like, you know, you you mention the life changing a few times. Can you give me another example, another thought about why this is a life changing experience?

Yeah and a lot of people call IT the overview effect, people who traveled to space. I think so much of our time, whether it's at work in our personal lives, we are in the moment, and we're dealing with issues that can cause stress, that can cause anger, that can cause joy. And I think when you go to this kind of a level of looking at the planet from space, everything seems a little less significant.

On the more earthly front you see the earth, you realize that the layer of protection that we have, which we call our atmosphere, is really so thin. IT was incredible to me to think that in just over two minutes, we were beyond that thin atmosphere in space. And then to look at the earth from space gives you a sense that IT is so frail that life is fragile, that this planet is fragile and you're flex to more so that we see today so much of what's happening politically around the world's most current is the ukrainian crisis with russia.

And you see the chAllenges we have had with covered. These are things that we deal with here on earth. But in the course of history, in the course of this planet, when you look at IT from space, you see peaceful, a peaceful planet, and you realize that this planet has been here for billions of years, may continue for billions of years beyond humankind on IT. And that, to me, is something that I feel privileged to reflect upon. And IT gives me a great sense of perspective in my day to day life today.

Wa, this is actually very powerful.

I would also add one other thing that I think is very important. The science that going into travelling to space is really going to push our limits in terms of a lot of the technology we deliver and things that can perhaps even benefit the environment and long term prosperity of the plant, the health of the planet. While i've been fortunate enough to have great success in technology, I see my success.

And IT was, as you well, no, is in cyber security. Cyber security is to fix and protect the earth from something we humans have created. We develop this technology, we develop these tools.

But when we think about what we can create to save the planet, that's a bigger vision, a much more complexity. And it's quite fortunate that. People are willing to I mean, private investment is willing to take the effort to invest in technologies that will help us explore space in long term, a planetary uh, safety.

So there is one more thing I cannot help asking because this is a lot of our podcast audience even asked, right, sure, what did you do for the training? Because, you know, in the past we say, hey, you know, to be astronauts, you have to gone through rigorous training. And for you tell us, you know, you can last. You and I talked some, you know, a little bit easier than I thought. I can you share with our audience .

about the training part? Yeah, I don't want to diminish the intensity of the experience. But for me and my son, IT was a sounding that the science was so straightforward in the what they call the flight profile that these rockets take, that mars or training was primarily classroom training.

We did go into simulation, but the simulation was inside a capture where we would go through the motions of securing ourselves, belting ourselves in the seats, listening to the sounds. We would experience the entire time, understand when something might be wrong and what we would do if something went wrong and the impact that would have on us. But there was no physical training required, biggest training, physical training that was required with me to exercise for two months to lose twenty pounds to make weight.

But, you know, people might imagine astronauts having wires to their chest and monitoring their heart beats. That was a requirement for this type of a flight. IT was just the understanding and expections along each second of the flight. They broke the flight down for us, told us what we would expect to each point. We took quiz tests to see that we understood all the proper procedure.

literally. crisis. wow. yes. So other than the two months of the losing twenty pounds, like a how much time of the training for this lunch, how many weeks or how many .

days believe IT IT was a four days of training. Of course, I took advantage of some other things to prepare. Me went on what the zero gravity flights there is, A A company that offers a zero gravity experience.

And I wanted to have an appreciation of that, but I did that on my own. A blue origin had encouraged us, if we wanted to experience that beforehand, to try IT. But IT was a essentially, we arrived in texas four days before the launch. They treated us with great hospitality. First day we suited up and they tailored the suits.

We had ear pieces customize to be able to reduce and eliminate the high disable sounds that we would experience during the flight, uh, particularly the ignition of the engine and and some of the a other aspects of IT after the first day of getting fitted for the suits and ear pieces, we then went into classroom training for three days with the final tests. Well, we had tests each day, but final exam h at the end of the four days. So people might be astounded at the fact that IT is that quote, simple, but I think that's the purpose of this because the goal by blue origin as well as all of the other companies are looking to offer civilian space travel is to essentially make IT achievable for the average person. And let's face IT to will you ve shatner went before me and he's ninety years old.

Yeah, that's true. So after the trip, you actually went on to see jeff beats secret projects. Do you mind talk a little bit before we move on to other interesting topics?

Well, I won't speak briefly because IT is indeed a secret project of his and and i'm sure I will be well documented and shared with the broader public at some point. But jeff is A A visionary and he is not bashful about the fact that he is privileged himself to have the resources to things such as blue origin.

Jeff has been in the process of trying to create a time piece that will chronicle time on earth and um this project is something that he's working on and I probably won't say much more about this only because again, we had the opportunity to travel with him to his team to take a look at this project. As I said, I think there will be more set about this but I think the bigger part of this is that jeff who had much admire is somebody who is recognizes that private enterprise and uh, willingness to go beyond the Normal focus of investment and experimenting is something that he's willing to do unapologetic to do IT. So so I look forward to when he'll share more of the vision of this project with people, and i'll probably lead IT to that for now. right?

You know, building something that's going to be relevant for many, many years to come, not just for the current generation, right? You know, we have served gray wall, you know, of china pyramid of egypt, you know, things like that, you know, would be passed on to thousand of years from now. Sounds like he is doing something interesting, perhaps a digital transformation version of the grey .

wall of that.

But you know.

this is to leave something behind, in many ways, similar to the great pyramid we have experienced, and word that had great foresight from the ancient egyptian. So jeff s. Project to, which is a time piece, chronically, mankind is something that I will be a gift that he'll leave behind too many, I think.

right? My last question from on the space topic, you know, from the space and I, you see the earth obviously and the anything recognizable from the space yeah .

it's quite interesting. Uh, when you are flying on an airplane, maybe at thirty six to forty thousand, you can see a small portion of the country or that you're flying over and is very hard to really identify because you don't know whether you're over one state or one country. You might see some recognizable, uh, landMarks exactly. But but in this case, at the height of our flight, we were able to see from california to floria, essentially the entire continental .

u is alive.

Nia, oh yes. yeah. Because the c errors, the mountain ranges of california. And then you can see the blue of the ocean. And then to the other side you can see what is, uh, florida and the gulf coast. So you can really make this out.

And it's interesting perhaps on this one day, I was relatively clear day across the country, ironically, there was one set of disasters in the form of tornado s that had gone through a portion of the us. But when you look at the entire country, you really can distinguish a so much of IT the outline of the gulf of mexico to texas clearly see floria, and of course, the arizona desert areas, canyons. So IT was a lot to take in and somewhat surreal, because again, when you look at things from an airplane, you see just a very small part of the landscape. And eath you but to see such a broad amount of IT was, in my mind, amazing that only way to describe this.

yep, I have to say jealous. So now, of course, you didn't get to this point by doing nothing, right. You know, IT took it's amazing journey for you, you know from career wise, you know very successful career building in the high tech company's C E.

O. In the recent years. In the as an investor, you've been tremendous amount of the interesting work.

So let's just go back to your early days of the career, right? So if I would say, hey, you know, there's one chapter. You would say that's my defining chapter of my career. Which chapter would you talk about?

Perhaps not anyone. chapter. A good book has a compilation of many chapters. But I think so much of the foundation for what made me successful actually began as a youth, uh, working for my grandfather and my uncle very Young age.

I learned how to sell and at the time I was selling kitchen products. But the foundation of having the passion behind something and representing IT and understanding there is a problem and you're selling a solution. These are foundational pieces that, of course, in my youth, I wouldn't understood them to be so fundamental.

But throughout my career, which LED me to national cash register following my colleges, my college graduation, I once again found myself in the early days of a technology, in this case, PC base technology, which coincided about with the time I graduated from college, and found myself selling this technology. And IT, once again, was no different than selling kitchen products is a youth. There was a problem, and here is a new technology which had a solution.

So though these common threads that I experienced, I had a good fortune of, at the time, working in a large CoOperation and cr CoOperation, which was then acquired by and t and I got to see how these solutions became part of a broader company goal or mission, and had a scale, a company, and how large companies worked. So when you combine that set of selling, go to market is probably the way I characterises the go to market experiences of my early career with the scalability of a large CoOperation. This became a nice combination of experiences that when I ultimately decided that I wanted to be a part of creating something disruptive and innovative, I was able to take these skills and Carry them forward to the companies. And I had an opportunity to lead and ultimately taken to the public markets.

So you started your kind of the sales person during when you were very Young, and then you continue that in your career. What happened in terms of becoming the management, you know, or rising to the top of the management? What did you take?

Well, I think that fundamentally, I was a quick learner, and this is not unique to me. I think it's A A skill set that many successful people have. As we talked about during my conversation about the rocket where risk takers, we are not afraid or feared getting hurt because we believe that there's always a way to fix what doesn't work right.

And um with this really I think IT combined with the larger experience of working in a company to bring me to a point where I realized that this could be applied in so many different ways to work and build companies. In my case, I was fortunate enough, and maybe this was by, again, my quick learning and study of being able to select the right technologies, the right spaces, the right people, founders, inventors to come alongside. And I think generally, that I believe that if you could find something that fit a need in the market, you can probably take that and build that into something significant.

So this is probably maybe not so much of a revelation to many people, but the combination of being able to spot these opportunities, bring the right people and resources around them, understand the scaling, necessity and capability of how to bring a company forward. It's an interesting if I can use the term cocktail of experiences that rarely do they all come together in such a perfect way. But in my case. I found that cocktail and applied IT to the right set of companies.

So that's a very good right, because, you know, you were a very good sales person and then you worked in the larger organization, right? You know, back in the days, A T N T was one of the best that the largest technology companies need work there. You kind of saw the top tier management.

You learn that and then you are able to put together um a lot of things together, but still and you kind of a rose um to the top at the china micro, which at the time was one of the largest subsets ity companies. You are the executive vice president but then boom, right you went to pilato networks at that time. I was a startup, right as far I know you didn't work for a starter before, right in a big company, big shots.

Now you go to a start up, even though you were the C E O, but how many people when you joined as A C E O? So what's your thought process? Because you know it's a not a risk, but how did you think about the risk?

Well, I will just add one important ingredient to this cocktail I spoke to before. I did actually do two startups before ending up a train micro. And you know, I have to be humble and saying that they were not good outcomes and experiences, which again, I think adds to the component of quick learning and being able to correct OK.

So even Better, you you had a two start of experience. Both of them didn't have good outcome. And then you were at a try micro, a big company, and then you were the exactly vice president.

And then boon, you go to your third start. why? Why bother? You were not scared off. Well.

first of I is, we've talked already. I never had the fear, but IT was kind of a when, as a youth, I played baseball. And the coach would say, you're up, you're at bad.

It's your time at the play. And I think palot really coincided with the level of experience maturity. I went to palo alto, a CEO and was forty six years old.

So already I had A A very long career worth of experience, some twenty five years of selling, working in management, having had good and bad started experiences, having worked for large companies and understanding scale. So IT was probably the best way to say is IT was my time. And so long as I put my skill set against the right opportunity.

And this is an important point here. When I came to palo alto networks, IT was under the belief that I was ready to be a CEO. And of course, I had been when yet, but I felt I was ready. I looked at the number of company before taking the assignment in palo alto networks. And through the process, I realized that my wedding process of selecting the right company there, could we all know that they're hundreds of companies and cyber, there are thousands, thousands of startups.

Well, at that time, probably five hundred, and now it's three thousand.

But i'd worked in the cyber space that trend microsys recognized. I had all of these skills and an understanding, and I understood problem solution. So when I met with palo to founders and the board, and the opportunity was described to me, quite Frankly, IT seemed almost as clear to me as I was when I was selling a map to a housewife to clean up a mess on the floor.

You have a mess, you get the right mop. You clean IT up, and the job is done. Now again, that's oversimplified when IT comes to building technology such as a firework.

But to me, there is a need that needed to be filled. They had the right assembly of technology. Engineers know how experience from previous companies.

I had the leadership as well as the management experience. And when you put them all together, IT really gave me the opportunity to perform. And IT wasn't an individual performance.

Of course, it's about the team. It's about the collection of people. But that was my time at bad.

So it's your time. No fear. Twenty five years experience. You know, you were ready for that, but that was two thousand and the eight, right, middle of the two thousand and eight, of course, only a few months later it's the financial crisis, right? The sky was falling.

What was in your mind? right? No fear was survived. Or tell me the truth.

Well, I still didn't have fear. I think I was more fearful for the fear I saw around me. And again, not to be critical of the investors we had or others that believe that this was really the end of an error of venture capitalism in silicon valley.

I just thought back to another experience I had, and IT was one of those failed startups in the year two thousand. Two, as I shared with you, wasn't at my first radio. I happened to land in silicon valley in two thousand, wanting to chase that dream of a start up. And IT turned out that I landed in silicon valley, right, the dot com crash. So I actually went through that and had to close down, started up.

So so the sky was falling. But he didn't register with you.

didn't register with the kind of, uh, level of concern, fear. I went right back to what my fundamentals were. I know what failure looks like.

I know what a bad economy downturn can be. I know how to build a company. I know this company has good technology. Let's press on. And so that was kind of the thoughts that I had.

Now that was a little bit jx opposed to some of the investors and some of the sentiment in the market about what you do at the time of crisis in an early stage company. But i'd actually say that my willows call IT confidence, no fear, actually worked counter to the situation. For example, while so many companies were laying off some really great talent, whether IT was engineering our sales are other management we were pressing forward. So even though we were the small startup underdog, there was a tremendous amount of talent that was coming available in the market, and we had that privilege of picking some real great talent to get the company where we needed to be. We also had a one of the things it's little known from the early days at palo alto flex on ics, which was doing the manufacturing, the firewalls had a all but shut down its uh sand who is a factory because cisco and june or in the other larger competitors, sensually, we're going to work down their inventories during this downturn.

So because no one can sell anything.

I was able to use this capacity that they needed to keep fields in silicon valley that sanaa plan to negotiate tremendous manufacturing terms, bringing the build of materials to these firewalls to a much lower rate. And eye as a start up could have done if those factories were at full capacity developing the larger companies product. So we went counter to what people thought we should do and IT might, in fact, be, in that case, the thing that really made the company thrive during a downturn. So again, these are survivalists experiences that culminated from a lot of years of experience.

I think, of the flash on ics moment is almost like a tesla did right back in the days of the financial crisis. They acquired the factory from, I think, toyota, right? So it's almost like the tesla moment. So the company thrived because of the the overall crisis. You know, the rest of the industry experience, ed.

that's right. I think you're going say it's when you think different, that you different tie yourself.

right? You always have to I mean, if you have to be successful, you have to think differently. So true. So pilato network is the company. You know, I had a tremendous respect over the years, right, because i've been in the cyber security industry for many years and the company has been pretty successful, right?

Very successful. And I feel proud to have been you humbly, i'd say I was a small part of its success may be an important part in the early phase, but certainly proud.

right? I always told you know, people in my own teams, this gated today that a look, you know, look at a pilot networks in the last decade, it's probably the most successful sub security company, right? Independent sub security company and anyone who you know came off palo network, we say, wow, this is a talent, right? And at the same time, but you know, i'm telling my own team members say, hey, next ten years it's your time, right? This scale, right? You know, x many years from now, people would say, hey, you came from the scale, right? And this is the next generation company after pilot networks.

So tell me more about IT, right? So you are the sea of pilato networks. And then, you know, in around around two thousand eleven you join A Z.

Of course, today this idea is roughly a forty million dollar company, depending on the day of the month. But at that time, no one or very few people understood IT. right? I clearly remember I had a conversation with my own friends.

They were the visionary in the sub security world. And then we were talking about the scale. And you know, two of us, suddenly I didn't anticipate A Z scale won't be where is today. So you joined A Z scale. What kind of risk did you think you you took?

I didn't think about the risk aspect of the scale. First of all, because of the success of paleo, I was well position to take any risk. And if you equate risk to a financial stability, I knew that palette was on the verge of going public.

But I will share that these scales filled an important gap in the product solution that I discussed early days with the product team at palo to. So in some sense, it's recognizing that one company, one product doesn't solve all customer problems. And the vision.

And I again, I don't take credit for the vision that jay child we had. The vision was a very bold vision and IT was, as people would characterize, predicting where the puck would go with regard to cloud development and the eventual evolution of a hardware based security infrastructure so to something that would be cloud native. And so um I believed that dead was a future.

And this is again a perfect example of when, like minds come together to solve a problem that have a very good set of complimentary skills. J being an excEllent product, product marketing, product visionary, even pretty good in engineering standpoint as well in terms of understanding technology. And me with the go to market, the people management, the the scaling aspect and understanding of the company, this was really quite unique combination.

And since neither of us was uh had a big ego about being the boss, of course I respected him as the founder and CEO, but he respected me as being somewhat of A A partner in figuring out had to navigate through a very competitive. At that time, proxy market IT was a great combination. And it's no you know, people will ask me, how do you do this? How do you pick to the biggest, most impact for cyber companies? Right back to back again, I refer back to what we've discussed earlier.

There's there's an accumulation of experience IT LED to that. The first time founder may not necessarily, you know, hit IT that much right on the head of the nail. But in my case, IT was thirty plus years by this time after palo alto. And I could see again, and I see IT in so many companies that I get involved with as an investor and advisor. So cyber comply.

I think at the base on my observation of your own career, you took a lot of the risk along the way. But you know based on your which you articulated today, it's very much calculated risk first, all right, and secondary or more importantly, I would say you don't see yourself take risks in those cases. The experiences were there.

It's the right time in right? You know look at things from multiple dimensions, not just from one angle. IT may be very risky, but you know, looking things from multiple angles and then looking at things holistically.

So it's not so much a risk in the end, right? It's not a risk. King, well, IT is a risking, but you know, in your mind it's a way more thoughtful .

is taking that's right. And I believe that I firmly believe now that, that is a unique combination of skills and experiences that you know or somewhat the rare I don't reflect too much upon my approach towards things because I don't think i'm that arrogant or ncs stic. But you know, when I step back from a toner on the h, how do I get here? What lessons can I share with others? What coaching might I give to other founders? CEO?

I realized that perhaps there is an accumulation here that is, in fact, a bit of a rare combination. And I like to teach and share. So see myself as the founders s best friend. I may not be the guy who does IT all, but I can certainly help people who have great visions.

It's really a segway. To the next topic we want to discuss in the last few years, right? So you left the Operational kind of the job now you have been an invest for the last one approximate seven years also, right?

It's a very different ball game. And do you see making investment as again, a retaking business? Or you view IT differently, right?

As a matter of fact, you know, we are good friends because you actually invested in trust class, the company I found IT a few years back, and we started this relationship from there. And then, you know, ever since. And so but clearly, when you invested in interest path, we had a powerpoint.

So from my point of view, you took a lot of risk, hopefully worked out for you. But you know no matter what, if you know just in general, how do you look at a venture investing? Is that investing or maybe in your view, is not so much resting?

Yes, very interesting question. Because most people invest because they want to make money. I have to say that I don't invest because I want to make money anymore. I've done well enough that my investing really is, to me, my problem solving, my puzzle. A lot of people like to read a good book or do a good crossword puzzle.

To me, my investing is the stimulation to me and my mind in terms of taking all of this experience and figuring out how I can do IT again and help others do IT again. For example, the selection of the companies that i've invested in. Simple lesson is, stick to what you know, most of the companies i've invested in, including your previous company, where in the cyber space, i've done some investments that have been outside of that space, but my calculus might not be a sharp in doing something.

So there's that process of selecting the company, and then there is the process of the product market fit, and that's very much understanding the company, the technology and there is the human aspect. So much of the success i've had has been because of the right founders, the right leaders, the right team, write employees, right culture. And if you see these things and they mire or look similar to what you've experiences in the past, in the most successful companies you've seen and be a part of that's a good checkmark, and then you go from there, then it's okay.

How do we take this and how do we make this compelling for the customer? IT goes back to my early days of selling kitchen gadgets. We've got a solution.

Do we have a real clear understanding of how it's solves the problem that an enterprise, a company or consumer might have? So these are all, to me, fun puzzles to solve. And and so investing to me, of course, the outcome might be a nice return on an investment.

But I do IT primarily as I don't want to say my hobby, but my enjoyment. It's very different than venture investors who do. This is a job they have to perform at a certain level and they have to be print in the way they deploy limited partner capital.

Of course, this is my own money when I best, and it's a lot simpler situation in terms of dealing with partners and and other people that have a say in the decision. So I view IT not as a risk. And if IT became risky, then I would probably, I think, depart from my Normal way of doing things and perhaps just pass on that, because, in my mind, risk isn't fun.

I just came back from a trip to new york city, where one of the earlier stage companies I invested in was having a live sales kick koff. I was so thrilled to see companies actually getting together live again. Of course, we need to be conscious of the health concerns in the new environment of coffee, but to get in front of the team in this early stage once again and be able to participate to me is enjoyable to me in different ways than getting in a rocky and going to space.

Do you think a financial rewarding is not necessarily deal, but has IT been financial rewarding as well?

There is no question about that. There is a few companies that are involved and invested in today that made themselves become the next great cyber IPO. There are others that will likely be acquired.

So there's certainly more money to be made in this stage of my career as an investor. But the money that I might make is an investor may pale by comparison to the success in some of the previous companies that i've helped lead and take to the public markets. Nonetheless, IT becomes more money for me to give to charity and philanthropic interests in the coming years, and that gives me great joy as well.

Now so as you said, right, the you the way you look at investment is different from the more professional kind of V, C, but you work with a lot of V, C, right? You know you and I actually talked about a few companies together that you person invested in early stage V, C, right? The top tier, said A V, C, you also invest in some top tier, P, E, lay stage, growth stage, the investor.

So I actually curious, right, because you kind of invested in see the in a very early stage company yourself and investing some of the big company in a growth stage company yourself. And you have so much visibility into early stage and growth stage investment. So can you share your your perspective like the early stage investment versus the growth, the P E stage kind of the investment because you have money in both. How should the people think about IT?

I've tried to understand where my focus should be in why its theirs. For example, investing in early stage companies, there's a lot more risk because we all know the amount of work that has to go into an early stage to get IT to some financial value is a lot long a road. The later stage, obviously, we know that it's a lot to risk.

What I really kind of assessed is that i'm somewhat stage agnostic as much as I am captivated by the quality of the vision a company might have or the innovation or the disruption that, that might create in the market. So if that is the dimension that I most look at, the disruptive potential that could present itself in any phase. So for example, um if i'm privileged enough to be exposed to a cyber company, as we've talked about before in its early phase and I understand the disruptive nature of that, i'll best early.

I'll take the four year journey you or whatever IT takes for you to go from early stage to IPO. If I encounter a company that you know is already well established, but yet the company has something that is going to be meaningful and impactful in terms of a market at my entry in that to me, is worthy of an investment. So I don't think so much in terms of the multiple of the return on my investment, and I think that's mostly because i'm unencouraged by the fact that I need to show a high return.

You know, as we know a lot of venture firms, one of the metrics they might have is we need to find a company that has the potential of being a tennis for us to invest. I don't really think of IT in terms of that. There are many companies i've invested in late stage that might only bring a three x return, and that's just quite fine with me. So not focused on the arai specifically, i'm focused on the disruptive and innovative aspect. That's what excites me the most.

You know you mention the right, you know our I is not your number one metrics. And then you are not kind of a dragged down by the fact that other professional invest, you have to go back to the their limited partners every one quarter, every half a year to report their progress. The fact you don't have that burden, do you think in the end, IT helps you to actually potentially have a more financially rewarding experience for that part? Or you fall like, you know that's also gono things.

Yeah, that's a good question. Um of course, I fully respect venture or private equity investors that have specific return targets mean this is their business. You know the fact that I don't really view my investments with that is the number one dimension I think actually freeze me to look at a broader set of things.

As we know, many venture firms will not look at something if it's past saying A, R, B stage because they wanted do later stage tested, already tested, improving companies and other firms are, especially these days, seem to be taking a bit more risk and getting their early stage because they want to find that one jam. And they'll just focus much more on the factors that they believe will take that early stage company and and make the massive outcome. I feel privileged to not have that kind of measuring stick.

Or in many people might say that burden. And I think IT actually has allowed me to listen Better to founders or listen deeper to company value propositions, as we know. And again, I don't in any way disrespect investors that have to do this, but there is a simple checklist that you know in two or three early questions as they review a deck of a potential pitch deck, so to speak.

They'll just turn on or turn off real quickly. But i'll go deeper, i'll listen longer. I'll think about what they might be missing or what skills that they may need to get there. And perhaps maybe i'm willing to take a little bit more risk.

And again, it's the thread that goes through this whole talk today, how we who gets on a rocket after only three launches doesn't really you calculate or or calculates through some complex calculus that this is worthy of doing. So I think IT leaves me on encumbers. Now i'm not gonna. I'm the best investor and I get the greatest returns. But I will say one thing, i'm having a damn good time doing what .

i'm doing that's super important. Hey, this is actually so good to have you talk about your you know space experience, your kind of the panado networks, these scattered experience and then you know most recently as the investor, right? You know it's kind of a different chapters.

And before you and I talked, I was thinking, hey, you know, I know lame for quite a few years. You know, I know him pretty well. One of my observation is, you know, he's a rise taker. But you know, even though I thought, I know, I know you a lot, but from this conversation that might take away as you know, yes, maybe as a from an outsider, land is a riker, but you you actually took a very calculated risk and in to a degree that it's actually not risky cause you know whatever you do uh, let's look at the recent experience. Yes, you do venture investment very early stage a lot of times.

But most of the companies you invest is in cybersecurity, the space you know them well or Alice, you know how to sell uh into cybersecurity space probably Better than nine nine point nine nine nine percent of the people out there. So it's risky. But you know it's something you actually really, really know very well. So I thought, you know it's actually very thoughtful, are risking even though you're doing risky, so called risky venture investment.

Well, IT is interesting i'll share with you, and I won't mention the specific company, but i'm the chairman of the board of a company, which I believe that will eventually be in public company in cyber. And I put together as the chairman aboard and reached out to some very capable executives.

And in the early stage of this company, one of the board members, who is somebody I really respect a lot, said to me, lane, what did you get me into here? This excessive makes sense. And I sent to this board member, you really need to trust me. There's this calculus I have, and I know that all of the things that are concerning you and don't seem to match up, they're come in line. And I was really pleased perhaps about three weeks ago after we had a board meeting, this board member crawled me up and said they have you call the shot right again?

So tell me more about IT for this company. And what did you see that others do not see?

Well, again, this was ber. I understood that there was this a deficit in cyber. And again, i'll stay away from mentioning specific company names because I don't want this to be viewed as a meat pumping the opportunity as a future success.

But the in cyber, one thing is still has been lacking, and that has been the ability to predict and prevent. There is so much technology that can identify and remediate and address afterward. And so IT was a gap. So I fundamentally saw that there was a product marketing opportunity that was being underserved, if not not being served at all.

There was a set of engineers and founders to this company that had a unique set of skills that I had seen in any of the companies i've been involved with today, so that the product they had developed and the people they had assembled was a unique collection of individuals that, again, I felt could really deliver together relatively new CEO to be taking on an experience like this. And some might have perhaps had concern over the ceo's experience. But I also saw within the individual tremendous capacity and commitment to the technology, the company, the people that i've felt would bring the level of maturity and his leadership.

So just all of these calculations that if anybody took anyone view of either the technology or a crowded markets in in cyber, the experience and success track record of the founder at any one of those factors, you might you know, put up the red flag, but I could see beneath and lower to appreciate deeper the potential error. And again, I don't want to say that i'm unique in my capability of doing that, but maybe to some degree, I am. And maybe that's why some of my outcomes have been Better than most.

Well, you know, when you are taking risk, you you kind of have to have confidence in seeing something that other people don't see right in. In that particular case, with the technology, the people, the product, some investors may see a lot of broken ness of IT, but you saw some pieces that just unique potential and then jumping into that opportunity. And I worked out for you that's so great.

So from that point of view, right, you know, we are talking about taking risk, but you are talking about, hey, this is actually more than taking risk. This is actually use my experience, right, looking at things from multiple dimensions, analyzed IT, having my own insight, and then also be pretty selected, right? Not like, you know, hey, just spread your your bet, you know you still do you know, very thoughtful thing, so it's actually so good to hear, right?

You know, a lot of times when we do our own company, do our own investment, right? Don't think about just asking yeah sure, taking risk, be fearless, that's important part. But also what are the things in your mind to the risk things, right? You know when you take this blueing right, you know in your mind four thousand people you know working so hard to the rescue, right? So that's a comforting thing, something with entrepreneur s you can me today you know the dedication, the commitment they have that you know how important this is to you.

I'm so glad to um have this good retaking thing because you know originally I was trying to you know get your secret recipe about how do you look at the risk but what I learned today is you know yes, it's about risk but it's also about the non risk part right and we are not doing later y you you know your success, right? Multiple companies in the role. Uh those and them from Operational side, from investment side, it's not a lottery. It's actually the risk to kind of the journey for you in many ways yeah you say that .

you have kind of put that together well, and and even through my own conversation today, I think you put a nice summer around that. Now, I just reemphasize one point to made in the words you use before, no fear. I think so many people are encumber red in their life, let along their careers by by fear, fear of an outcome.

Whether it's making a mistake at work in their boss, giving them a downgrade in terms of their performance, whether you, as an investor, are afraid of making a wrong call on a company and your partners is in the investment firm diminishing in terms of their respect for you, when you have no fear and you're not encumber red by that, and you can live the decisions you make. And I I think this is true about so many of the for nurse i've worked with. They don't fear losing their job.

They don't fear if their company fails because they have a certain set of skills and they'll go back and work for another company or they'll try another company. It's almost as if there is a certain part of the brain that never actually was able to register the outcome, the negative outcome of fear. And if you are child and you touch a hot stove, you learn that that's gonna hurt, and you probably won't touch that stove again. I think a lot of people who go forward in technology companies and founding companies with no fear, they'll touch the stove. And if their hand gets burned, they'll figure out how to wear and glove next time they touch the stove and and not get burned, they don't decide that they're never going to go near the stove again.

Right, right, right. Just the one last question. You actually went to china in a few years back, right?

You know, after you came back from china, you actually give this video, you know, wow, this is amazing. And we all know that, you know, U. S.

China has gone through a lot in the last few years. And then you know the it's an interesting time to say the is right, you know not just the U. S. China, but also other parts of the world. For this podcast, we actually have quite some friends from china given that you had a in a wonderful experiencing china, you observed you know, a lot of the policies going on, any thoughts, any words you wanted to share with, you know, our audience, uh, in china, listening to you.

I was so encouraged by the time that I visited china and other parts of the far east. In the last three to five years, there is an innovative passion and appetite there, not different, I should say. And what we see here in the united states, and i'm encouraged that there's talent that exists not only in the U.

S, not only in europe, but also in the forest in china. I'm hopeful, and this is where I I have a little bit of concern. I won't say fear because I believe in the end, the right thing will happen.

But i'm hopeful that the change is that we've seen in terms of us china relationships, even leadership changes that have taken place in the recent year in china don't upset the creativity, the passion for entrepreneurs. M that we've seen over the last decade in china. And so i'm hopeful and quite Frankly, I would encourage people to continue the invite because IT doesn't matter where you're from. IT begins with that passion for innovation, taking on chAllenges. And I think that spirit is alive and well in china and other parts in the forest.

That's so true and that you still believe the rising will happen.

I do.

That's the typical name um being optimistic that's great to feel.

Always hope they happen sooner than later.

Yes, hopefully sooner than later. Hey, then thank you for your time. right?

You know this, uh, you know you have not just been my investor from my trust pass day, you know not just my great investor, but also good friend. And the most important. In the last few years, agreement tour from all aspects. You know, a lot of the people actually also came to me these days about, hey, you know, I wanted to grow my career. I wanted do entrepreneurship, and I thought I wanted to have, you know have a conversation with someone so that people can actually, uh, learn a lot, get a lot and you are the best person I can think of for this kind of the talk about know the innovation, about the entrepreneurship, about the growth. So thank you so much for your time.

Thank you for lung me. The opportunity to share with others I really appreciate. Thank you.

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