What About Vietnam– S5- E20 – Saigon Unseen: The Sights You Didn’t Know You Were Missing
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What about Vietnam?

A podcast with Carrie Newsome. The series where Carrie talks with travellers about their experiences and adventures. Find out more about Vietnam from the people who have actually been there. What about Vietnam? Whether it's adventure, exploring the culture and cuisine, shopping or just soaking up the sun. Let Carrie and her travellers pave the way for a magical holiday in Vietnam. What about Vietnam? What about Vietnam?

Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Well, people, here we are six weeks away from Christmas. I don't know about you, but I'm wondering where did the year go?

It's been a terrific year. It's been a big year. It's been a busy year. I hope you've enjoyed the programs that we've been able to put on. I really want to extend a big thank you to everyone that follows the show, that sends me your feedback. I hope

you gain some information to help you in your trip planning. As you know, I also offer the services of trip planning and I really do love putting those trips together for people. And please reach out at whataboutvietnam.com for those services. Today, we've got a really great program. I did something really different in this program. I took the risk

of recording in an outside location, which is a restaurant in Saigon called The Refinery.

While for, you know, 90% of the recording was good, there is a little bit of background noise. And just as a bit of a heads up, I wanted to just ask for your forgiveness for a couple of spots towards the end of the show that aren't so great. I've done my best to edit those out, but if you'll just forgive those

tiny little pieces there that aren't at my normal 100% perfect level that I would normally want to give. However, it hasn't taken anything away from the show.

Just on the show schedule now for 24, we have this one and then one more before we wrap up for the end of the year. I will be taking an extensive break. The first show back for 25 will be at the end of June.

January. So, you know, this show to go, one more, which is another great show to finish up the year. So hang in there. We've still got lots to tell you about Vietnam before we wrap up for 24.

Now, launching into today's show, it was a really great opportunity, as I said, to try something different, to record outside. I got to meet this person who I've been following for quite a long time, and I'd like to tell you about my guest, Matt Cohen.

Matt is the founder of The Bureau Asia, a media channel based in Saigon that he's been creating travel, F&B and lifestyle content since 2018. You can find his content all over the web on YouTube, social media, podcast platforms and his website, thebureauasia.com.

Prior to becoming a media mogul, he was, I'm sure, a comedian in his past life and

Matt was the managing editor of Saigon-based English language magazine, Word Vietnam, for a couple of years after he threw in his career as an educator at RMIT Vietnam, an Australian university with a campus in Saigon. He's also moonlighted for a number of magazines over the years, including Travel Plus Leisure Asia, Silver Chris, and that's your Singapore Airlines in-flight magazine, and

and others. And he still remains a pen for hire. If you wanted to reach out to him for his insights, his knowledge in the travel sector, F&B and lifestyle content, he would be your go-to guy.

He's originally from Australia, from the Murray Valley region, which is just on the border of New South Wales and Victoria for Australians. So you can imagine, and these are his words, he can be bought off very easily with a good cheese.

Matt's been living in Saigon since 2010 and in that time has witnessed and reported on Vietnam's dynamic growth over the past 15 years. I got to meet him and his wife and we

It was very easy to tell that they really love Vietnam. In talking about his Vietnamese language skills, he's as bad as I am. It's an ongoing process. He says his knowledge of Vietnamese history and culture is getting better, however, not great at remembering names, dates and significant events. I told him that's okay. That's what Google's for.

Matt loves Vietnam. He loves its people, and I think you're going to get a lot out of this show. We kind of really clicked. I loved my time with him. He's got some great insights to some parts of the city which, you know, don't normally fit on your traditional schedule.

visit map so you know don't worry about trying to keep up with the show there's lots of links to take you to this information so you're going to be able to access it easily when it comes to your visit and i just think you're just going to love the show let's welcome him to what about vietnam

So here we are at the refinery in downtown Saigon and I'm very, very lucky this afternoon because I'm sitting here with a gentleman by the name of Matt Cowan. Matt, say hello. Yeah, hi. Hi, Kerry. Thanks for having me. It's an honour to be on your very special podcast that I've been listening to for a long time, by the way. I do tune in, as you say.

Well, like that in itself is an amazing feat. I just hope I don't bore your listeners today. That's all. No, we decided before this you were the funny one. Remember, I was the serious one. You are very kind. No, you just have to be funny. Yeah, well, you're putting the pressure on. Yeah, yeah. Hey, guys, I just want you to, I don't know, get a better feel for Saigon and

in the sense that you have to dig a bit deeper to kind of get to the nitty-gritty, interesting kind of places. And interestingly enough, Mr Funny here tends to do that, scratch the surface. Scratch deeper. You've got to be careful, though, when you scratch here in this country. I've learnt that over the years.

Yeah, it may end up a trip to the doctor if you scratch a little too hard. Yes, yes. No, be careful. So we're sitting in this beautiful, it's actually a French restaurant called The Refinery. Yeah, it is. It's so nice. And I've been here several times. It was Matt's decision to come here, so I said yes to that very quickly. Yeah, a little bit of history. A little bit of history. And I'm going to let Matt talk kind of about the bit of the history stuff because he's fucked.

cleverer than me. I'm actually not a historian at all. No. And I'm not actually very good with details. No, but you're interesting. See, so that's okay. You can stay. Well, that's two points already. I don't care. You can come back. It's my show. The next piece. You're on my show. Remember?

Yeah, no, over to you to talk a bit about this area. Well, okay, thanks for dropping that on me. We're in the refinery, as you said, and just to give a little bit of background to the refinery, the refinery these days, if you say to people who live here, if you say, oh, we're going to go to the refinery,

It's a restaurant and bar. It's like a French brasserie, I think you would call it. Yeah. It's like a French bistro kind of place. And I believe it's been open since about 2006. So it's coming up on the 20 years, nearly as long as I've been here, I think. No, 15. I've been here 15 years. Amazing. Yeah. And this was, this precinct was really where all the expats at that time would hang out. Okay. Yeah.

This building here that we're sitting in, I think it was actually part of the actual... Well, it's called the refinery because it was an opium refinery back in the day. So I believe in the late 1800s it was where the French...

Government began refining opium and did whatever they did to it for consumption. So I think they imported most of it from India at the time. I think there was a little bit of opium grown here and hence that's why the name Refinery. And just for your listeners, if they do decide, if you guys do decide to come and eat here in this little precinct,

There's a gate at the front on Haibachung Street. It's at 74 Haibachung, opposite the park higher. And if you look up at the top of the gate, there's still the opium motif that was made out of, I don't know what, cast iron back in the day, I guess. And that's been there ever since this place has been open. So what are we talking about?

How's your maths, Kerry? Oh, what are you talking about? 120, 160 years or something like that. So, yeah. Because it's off the street. That's what people need to understand. Yeah, there's a gate. There's an archway and you have to walk down this little alley and there's quite a collection of restaurants here and it's kind of the first on your left. It's a very typical sort of gate area.

of that period. So if you can imagine back in the day when everything was horse and cart and that sort of thing. So, you know, they had to bring the horses and carts in here to pick up stuff. And when you're walking around town in the older parts of town, you still see a lot of gates like this. But this one in particular is quite unique.

because it was part of the opium refinery and as I said the cast iron motif at the top still has the opium poppies which is quite intricate and quite beautiful and I think that you can see it there Kerry but I'm just pointing out to Kerry here there's a

What do you call those? A blind and the logo for the refinery is actually an opium poppy. And... If these walls could talk. Oh, yeah. And...

A little bit further down, there's another restaurant, a Vietnamese restaurant there that your listeners might want to check out one day. Yes, I've been to that. And it's called Hoa Thuc, which basically means flowers. And there's a nice little barmy stand just next door. It looks like a little caravan that they lift up the doors and make barmy from. I love the decor here too. Oh, it's a great little spot. It's really cute. I actually came here for lunch a few months ago because with –

we'll probably get to it eventually, you know, the development of Vietnam and Saigon over the last decade or so has meant that I haven't come to these places so much. And now that I've been here a long time, I'm sort of,

looking to get a little bit more nostalgic. So I came back here for lunch and I walked in and I just went, wow, this is sort of a step back in time. You know, you get a little bit of that French feel. Just before we move on, I was going to mention that back in the day, Mal and I, my wife's here, you know, taking photos of us and that. Upstairs was a nightclub.

So we used to go up there. It was called Vasco's Nightclub and that was the place where all the expats used to get together on whatever night of the week it was. And there weren't too many places to go.

Typically, back in those days, possibly the place to go would have been above the Caravelle, the rooftop bar there. That was pretty the hot spot to go for a nightlife and a lot of expats, etc. But yeah, keep going. Yeah, definitely anywhere that's a five-star hotel back in the day. You know, like when I first came here,

So, yeah, 2010, the beginning of 2010, there wasn't a hell of a lot of things to do. Even then, you know, we're talking 2010, you know, a weekend sort of staycation was all you could really do and it was...

go to, say, the Park Hyatt or the Sheraton or the Caravelle, have their buffet lunch and then hang by the pool for the rest of the day. There wasn't too much to do, but there's a lot of things that have changed, lots of things to do now. And I think maybe there was a preconception that, you know, you fly into Saigon and really it was the stepping point to other places in Vietnam. It was just too city-fied. People were...

with its busyness, et cetera, and there really wasn't enough info out there. As you said, 2010, it wasn't as civilised and as cosmopolitan, would you say, this year? Yeah, for sure. Something happened around 2014, I think it was, I think, yeah,

the Vietnamese government became signatories to a number of, you know, international trade agreements. So that sort of opened things up a bit. And then we saw the craft beer boom sort of around then. 2014 was when Pasture Street first came onto the scene. Some of your listeners might be some of your listeners who were beer drinkers.

I'm sure there's a few. They're probably familiar with Pastor Street and also the restaurants and that that came as well. And it just built and built and built until the pandemic. But we won't talk too much about that. Well, we'll have to at some point. But I think the evolution of Saigon has been an interesting one.

as when even now when I'm talking to people and I'm building it into an itinerary and I'm suggesting to stay extra days, there is a little bit of pushback by everyone saying, oh, do we really need to stay there? And I go, just give it a chance. But as you say, it's not on the surface. I mean, you're going to get a list of the, you know, what are the top five things to do that are going to be in, you know, the Unification Palace and blah, blah, blah, blah.

blah, but there's a lot more to that. And pretty much that's why you're here, Matt, because I've been following you and how you've been, as you say, scratching below the surface to uncover the really cute, natty places. And that's what I want my listeners to get about this place. So knock yourself out with those places. Well, I think you hit the nail on the head.

To a large extent, Ho Chi Minh City is still seen as that city where you either fly into or fly out of. I get that. And as a long-term resident here, I totally understand, you know.

There's motorbikes everywhere. The foot baths are overtaken by motorbikes and street sellers. And if you happen to survive that, you'll roll your ankle. You know, the air quality is not so great. Take your mask off, Karen. No, she hasn't got a mask on. But this time of year moves into, even though it's the best time of the year weather-wise, moving into December,

It's also the build-up to Tet, the Tet holiday, and sometimes the air quality gets pretty bad. So January sort of into February it can't because the factories are

Really, the manufacturing places nearby really whip into gear before Tet. So that can be an issue and I get that. But having said all that, I still believe Saigon, Ho Chi Minh City is the best city in Vietnam. Wow, big statement. I'm a little bit biased but...

I've had an opportunity to scratch beneath the surface and find out a little bit more. And so I was thinking about this on the way in and it may be nothing new, but it's all about the people.

Saigon is about the people. If you can in some way connect with the people, your stay is just going to be so much better. How do you do that? Well, I suppose come with an open mind and try things. And I think what I like most about what you've been doing with your YouTube and with your podcast is

is talking to people about the history of this place but in finding it in places like cafes and architecture and kind of the ambience. The sort of the Indochina kind of thing. Lost in translation kind of guy thing. Well, I mean that how do I say this? Vietnam was colonised by the French.

And so these days to sort of glorify the colonial days is perhaps not the thing to do. You know, it wouldn't be happening in Australia probably or in other sort of Western countries around the world. But we've got a – we're up to Generation Z now, I think it is, or Generation whatever they are. I get lost in the alphabet. And that –

you know, that was a million years ago for those guys. And so what we, a little bit of a trend we're seeing at the moment is new cafes and bars opening up cocktail. There's a lot of cocktail bars here, by the way. If you love cocktails, I mean, you've come to the right town. Yeah, I've just spent two weeks here, so I think I can vouch for that. Oh, that's why you've got the bloodshot eyes. Oh, thanks. Thanks, Matt. Now you know why I stick to audio and I don't do visual. So tell your wife to turn that camera off.

But, yeah, a lot of, you know, when you come here, you'll discover a lot of characteristics

cafes and bars that are fairly new and they're harking back to that Indochina vibe, which to me I love. Quite American. Yeah, dark places, all that lovely, you know, the interior, the French vibes, you know. So there's a whole lot to discover here in that sense. And despite what you hear, yeah,

probably on social media and in the media that, you know, so many of the French buildings are getting torn down and all that sort of stuff. There are actually still a lot of the big apartment blocks that were French built. They're looking a bit

tired and weary and stuff like that and a bit smelly. But if you take the time to go in off the street, don't mind. Remember we were in Chinatown the other day and you said, oh, I feel like I'm prying into their personal life. Into a neighbourhood, into a collective. Yeah, don't worry about that. Head in and get up the stairs and have a look around because what you'll find is, you know, sort of three to four level levels

apartment blocks that essentially hold communities and I'm talking hundreds of people, maybe even thousands and where young people have come in, the latest generation has come in and they've either travelled or they're better educated, they've come back to their hometown, they're like, okay, I'm going to open up a coffee shop or I'm going to open up a cocktail bar

And they do it. Yeah. And one of the most typical ones which, you know, is like Instagram fave is the cafe building. Right. Now, if you saw that building in the US or Australia or whatever, it would be demolished. Right. Even to get into it and go up the stairs.

There were rumours that they were going to pull that down back in the day. But guess what? They haven't. And you know why? Yeah. Is because it's turned into a major tourist attraction. Right. But what I think I want to stress with just something that Matt's talking about some of these places, they are kind of down dingy alley. Yeah.

I don't know where you hang out, Kerry. Yes, you actually do because you and I nodded to a lot of the places that we knew in the last few days. I know nothing. So don't give me that. Anyway, but apart from that also, you're not going to see a tourist bus with 40 people parked.

while out in front of it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, good point. It's for the people who really hang around and spend some time to delve in that. Now, you can still be in that group with the bus of people or the 25 people or whatever and you'll see the stock standard, tick, tick, tick, tick, the boxes, et cetera. But that's only a

a poof-dink of what there is. And I think that's what Matt's trying to say in that. Just on that apartment, apartment 42, isn't it, on Wynway Street, interesting that you raised that because...

About two years ago, I did a video with a local architect. He's a little bit older than me, not too much older than me, but lived here all his life, actually lived in District 1 in this neighbourhood. And we did a video together about the Continental Hotel, which is quite famous and a lot of your listeners will be aware of

The Quiet American, the novel, and of course the movies, and Graham Green, who was the author of that, and he famously stayed in room 214, which Mel and I, Mel, my wife, we stayed in that room a couple of years ago, and I did a video in there, and

Did a bit of a walk around, but I also invited my friend who's the architect to come and talk about the building and talk about the area. Anyway, we've just been in touch and we're going to have lunch next week because we're going to do a video on that very building you're talking about, apartment 42. He's got...

a lot of knowledge about that and history about that particular building. And it's a funky building in the sense that, you know, you keep climbing the stairs and, you know, you don't know what you're going to do. You can pay for the lift for anyone who needs a lift. Have you seen that lift, Matt, recently? It's one of those old French style. It's a cage, isn't it? It's a glorified cage. And then if it got stuck, I'd just, you know, I'd do the stairs. I'll tell you another building is the Cat Nat building.

right next to the new playground. Right. Have you been in there? It's got a Kong Cafe right on the corner and it's another mysterious, wild, up, round stairs. That's the one where the old... I just said HM. Yeah, the old, I don't know. I get this wrong all the time. The old CIA building.

You may see at the beginning of the show notes in the podcast channel that you're listening from some words that say text me a message. It's a great idea. Don't get me wrong. I love hearing from you and, you know, whether that's your thoughts on the episodes, some questions, messages of appreciation, you know, I just love the feedback. It's really great. However, I feel it remiss of me not

to A, not thank you for them, but to B, not be able to respond directly to you. So if you have sent me a question and I've got lots and you haven't heard from me, there's a really good reason why I actually don't have the ability in the technology to respond to you. They kind of expect...

that you would or I would answer the questions in the form of a show. And there's just kind of too many and I just think it's just too personal not to do it that way. So I wanted to alert you to the fact that if you do send me a message through that connection option, I'm not going to be able to respond to you directly.

So if you do have a question and it is time sensitive or you want to send me any kind of message, can I suggest the following two ways? One, send me an email to whataboutvietnamatgmail.com. That is the email address that I have the most constant access to and I will aim to get back to you ASAP.

Secondly, if you go to the website for the podcast, which is whataboutvietnam.com, if you scroll right to the bottom, there is a chance for you to leave a voice message. Now, in that voice message, I can respond to you directly.

equally with a response in voice. So if you want a quick response, that's your next best way. But I just wanted to get this into the show, make you aware of this as it really is becoming problematic. And I've just got too many

and I can't kind of go naming people and answering each question. That's just a little bit silly. So, if you have sent me a text message before and you're waiting on a message back as a response, I'm so sorry. I cannot do that. But if you want to send the question again, I'd be more than happy to answer. I don't think it was the CIA building. It was the

the residences for CIA staff, I believe. Someone will correct us in the comments. But it's the spot where the famous photo where the chopper

landed on the day. No, not that building. That's not the building. No, that's not. I know that building. Yeah, on Litu Jom, current day Litu Jom Street. I know you're showing off. Like, sit down. It's not too far from here, actually. We probably should have got a chopper to lift us in. Of course. Drop us in and we could have done this podcast there. A little bit of chopper noise in the background just to add more authenticity to it. I don't know if anyone would have heard anyway. Yeah.

Anyway, the Catanat building for everyone else who wants a simplified where is it, it's opposite H&M. You cross over the road and you go through this art dealer's kind of thing and then you walk up the stairs. Yeah, that's the one where the Com Café is on the bottom, on the corner, or the Catanat Café is on the corner and there used to be a Com Café. Com Café in the building. Yeah.

For anyone who's into war history and, you know, the very famous photo that was taken... 1975. April 29, I think it was, the day before the fall of Saigon. They lived in Saigon, yeah.

is still there. I've been up there. There was a time when you could get up there and you could also pay the security guy to get you up there as well. Of course you could, Matt. Yeah. Okay, so moving right along, can we talk a little bit about some of the history that comes through in places like Opera House and some of the shows they put on there? Because I don't think we talk about that enough. I'll start with the one I know, which is the A.O.

Oh, I haven't done that one. I haven't been to that in all these years. You've missed something spectacular. Okay. But the one you have done is the Ta-Da. Yeah, Ta-Da show. So maybe talk to my listeners about the Ta-Da. It was a little while ago, but...

An amazing show. A bit Cirque du Soleil. Yeah, very Cirque du Soleil. And it's done by a troupe of dancers, I suppose you call them a troupe, a troupe of dancers from the Central Highlands, somewhere around near Duclac, I think, or something like that. And it's just a very acrobatic show.

How else can I? Systematic, no, acrobatic. The choreography is amazing. The choreography is amazing. And all the props are made out of bamboo. So they're manoeuvring these massive...

I don't know, artifacts and boats and big circular things and whatever else made out of bamboo. And it's super daring. It's eye-opening. If you get a chance, make sure you go and see it. Yeah, I think it's a definite thing to do, which doesn't get mentioned that much. Yeah, funny that. I mean, there's a massive opera house there that the show is featured on.

For everyone listening, just be careful on the dates because it doesn't play every day of the year. It moves around. Sometimes they go on tour. They go overseas. Yeah, and Hanoi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they are part of the same troupe, which is the AO show. I personally think the AO show is just a –

Oh, right. I need to go and see it. And it's been going a lot longer, but it definitely does move around. And I think the company that runs it is called Lune, L-U-N-E. Yeah, that's it. I'll put a link in the show notes for people to just check your calendars if you're here. You know, I think the whole family would get something out of it. It's really quite special. Really great chance to see the Opera House as well. And inside a tip...

The comfiest seats in town. Oh, that's handy to know because there's not many comfy seats around in this city. There's none. So try and get yourself into the Opera House. Just outside the Hop-On Hop-Off bus.

I've seen it. I haven't done it. So there's a little ticket booth just outside the front of the Opera House. So you can just wander up there and the buses pull up across the street. I never do on-off buses. I know I should but I don't. I want to make it hard for myself obviously. But people say it's a really good summarising opportunity to them to see it and they don't have to walk in the sweaty,

day or whatever. They can sit on the top deck and get a suntan. You've got to pick your time of day, otherwise you'd fry. You've got to sit inside. I think I've done it a couple of times now and I think we chose a roundabout, well, depending on the season. So we're moving into the best season for tourists at the moment. Christmas in Saigon is the best time weather-wise and also a little bit of a festive atmosphere as well. The Vietnamese don't sort of, yeah, they don't,

celebrated in a religious sense so much and so great time for the double-decker bus and to sit up on top. And you kind of got to fit it in, people, because you don't want to miss out on happy hours. So you've really got maybe somewhere about three to four

Or maybe, do you think? It's about an hour trip, is that right? Yeah, it's about, well, actually they've extended it as well. You can go into Chinatown now as well. Oh, fair. So I haven't done that yet. But Mel and I have done it, the original one, and I think we went about 4 o'clock.

Again, depending on the time of year. So we're in Vietnam, we're moving into winter, so shorter daylight hours. It's usually dark at 6pm anyway, isn't it? Usually around here. Yeah, and you want it to be dark at 6pm. Yeah, so it's not a bad idea to get the bus at about 4.30 if you can, if there's one going at that stage. So then it moves into the twilight and then the lights come on. I think Saigon is a night city.

I think the city comes along. Well, it's a lot easier on the eye. We were in a taxi. In some places it's a lot, lot easier on the eye because some people kind of come out of the woodwork. Yeah. Yeah, there's some characters that come out. Oh, you know about that. Oh, no, I get around. Like seriously. You've just taken one off my list.

I did that the other night with a friend of ours and it turned out to be. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. And I'd never done Bowie Vinn either. So it was a big night. So we did Bowie Vinn. I was like from the start to the finish I'd done that in 15 minutes. That's the one you can hear. Yep. Are your ears ringing? I got in early, out early. But then we did the Japaner. You might have to go to that hospital you keep telling me about to get some new ears. Oh.

It's so loud. Look, I saved that for special occasions, that hospital, to get special work done. We can definitely talk about Japan Street but talk about Chinatown. I loved what we did the other day. Well, this might be where I get to put a little bit of a plug in because actually I took you on a small section of a walk that I've created and so, you know, obviously you'll leave a link to that. Yeah.

But people can access that. That's a self-guided walk that you can do. So you don't need anybody. You just access it through one of my websites or whatever, which is easy, and just follow the prompts along. And there's a few little photos and stuff like that and a few little explanations. And there's a map. Your time is finite and...

Same with your money and stuff like that. And so it's like, I don't really want to miss anything.

We're calling it Japantown because there's a lot of Japanese sort of small restaurants. If you've been to Japan, you'll know izakayas. So there's sort of little snack bars there. There are, well... No, no, no, Matt. You're one of the stars. You're staring me out of your carry. Little sort of massage places and little bars where you can... How would you... No, I don't know how you'd say it, Matt.

How would you say it? You would get a companion to sit with you. A companion, is that what they're calling them now? Not buy a companion. Buy a companion a drink, not buy a companion. Let's get that straight. I've...

I think you buy them for more than just a drink. Well, I don't know. I don't know. I can't comment any further than that. Don't go into the mummy now, Matt. That would be a shame. This is a G-rated show. If you want the X-rated version... I'll just send them to the link on your website. Go to Patreon, haven't you? No, my website isn't like that. Yeah, so...

A lot of the Japanese expats will live there. So Vietnam has a lot of Japanese workers who come who are in construction. They do the engineering on skyscrapers. They build roads and bridges and stuff like that. So they've been responsible for a lot of the infrastructure development in Vietnam over the last couple of decades. And of course...

when you've got groups of people, you want to, generally speaking, kind of hang out with your own to a certain extent and get the food and the drink that you used to and the massages, I suppose, that you used to from back home. And a little bit of care and attention. And over the years, it's developed into a bit of a Japan town. But before that,

We actually used to call it the ghetto because expats new to town would wind up there. That was where there was accommodation. The landlords were used to having foreigners live with them and they sorted out their, you know, their residence stuff, their rental agreements and leases and all that sort of stuff. But over time, over the last decade or so, it's evolved into this sort of

almost like a red light entertainment. Yeah, I was wondering whether those words were going to come out, red and light together. Or if you're Japanese listening to this, pink. It's like a maze, isn't it? It's a rabbit warren of little alleys. It is a rabbit warren. You kind of walk through. We were actually looking for, I think, a famous bar or some guy who was involved in a bar called The Power Bar.

Oh, okay. I saw him on a YouTube channel the other day. And we got there and it was nothing like I expected it.

It looks a bit like a gentleman's bar. Let's put it that way. Well, there wasn't even any gentleman there. Right, okay. It was dead as a doornail. What time was that? Probably about nine. Yeah, a little bit early. Probably. A little bit early, yeah, yeah. And you're not really the demographic. No, thankfully. But then you moved on to Boivien Street, which is the backpacker area, Fam Nulau area. And that was just a...

As Matt's saying, you know, that's about ticking a box for me. I literally, from the archway that it begins to the archway, I reckon I hightail that. I did that in about 15 minutes, 20 minutes. And as you say, demographically, it's not for me either. I stood out like the proverbial. It's worth having a look though, isn't it? It is. Look, the food here is so diverse. I get challenged in my...

with my clients in trying to describe the cuisine and the choices available in Saigon. Yeah. Like people say, oh, what happens if I don't like Vietnamese? Yeah.

That won't be a problem because there's Japanese, there's Greek, there's Italian, there's like you name it, it is here in Saigon and good quality and well-priced. Yeah, there's plenty. So, yeah. So I think and the cakes, like I've got a girlfriend who recently had some surgery and as I said, we'll talk about that. But all she could eat was something very delicious.

Soluble and soft. Yeah. So she went for the cake. So I have got some beautiful places to list out for you to explore as far as cake shops. And that's the French history still hanging around, you know. It's a beautiful thing. And other things that are sort of French that you'll find, and especially deep into the outer districts as well, are flans. Oh, I love flans.

Oh, okay. Yeah, there's a long tradition of flan here. So they're like the little custard tarts and stuff like that. Yes. You get the caramel flan or whatever. So you'll be driving around. You don't really see them so much in District 1, District 3, but if you go over the canal to District 4, there's a street there, all the other districts really.

Eventually you'll come across someone who's got a little stand on wheels and they'll be selling flan and little sort of custard tartlets, little pastry on the outside and then the egg tart in the middle. Yeah, and you just whack one of those back and get going. Not a problem. What advice am I going to give people? And probably, as I said at the beginning of the episode, was...

about the people. The people make this country. They make this city. So, okay, you need your guard. As a traveler, you need to take care of your things, take care of your bag, take care of everything else. Make sure you don't get run over crossing the street or whatever. But other than that,

Be open to people approaching you and having a chat. You know, the Vietnamese, I lived in Japan for three years, you know, 25 years ago, and the Japanese are really not into speaking English. They're not great at it, generally speaking. It's very rare to be able to walk up the street and say, hey, can you help me in English, and someone will answer. Whereas here, you know, it might be a lady on the street pushing a trolley

up a sort of a hill, you know, in the midday sun and you stop her and say, hey, can you, you know, show me where this cafe is or whatever and they'll have a go at it, you know, and then...

I'm a bit like you. I really do try to encourage my travellers to engage where they can. And people say, you know, well, how do I do that? And you can start with your reception staff at your hotel. They are your first point of contact. You'll probably find that they have a little bit more English knowledge

at their disposal. I have had the most amazing relationships formed by getting to know the reception staff at various hotels. The other thing I'd encourage you to do is to do something that they will need to speak to you about, like a cooking class.

And sometimes you'll, you know, engage with, I mean, I've got a very, very dear friend that started, she ran that cooking class. We just formed a relationship. The next thing she was sending me a text message at the end of the afternoon said, you know, what are you doing this afternoon? Would you like to meet up for a coffee? Would you like to go for

a glass of wine because I'd obviously shared with her I like a glass of wine and, you know, we went from there. And I was then able to, you know, spend time with her and see Vietnam through her eyes. Yeah. And that was just invaluable. Yeah. And you've just reminded me, one way to feel a part of the city is

And if you're brave enough, get on the back of a motorbike. Absolutely. It's one way that you can really feel like you're part of the crowd. And while we're on it, there's just a couple of motorbike tours left

Can I mention them? Sure. That I'd recommend. One is Vespa Adventures. Definitely. I've done it and it's a great tour. It's really cool. And then Vespas are an interesting bike in itself and it's probably only going to go about 40 k's an hour anyway. They also do a craft beer pub crawl as well. So you can book one of those if you want to do that, if you're into that. Another one, a young guy, he has one called Yes Ride. Yes Ride.

as well. So they're young kids who get around, you know, early 20s or something like that, locals. So that's really cool. Have we got time to just quickly, I've got a little list here of a couple of things. Go for the list, girl. I kind of forgot about it. Okay, so one other thing, if you're into history,

in Saigon. One of the things on my list that I did, the 25 things to do is eat in locations that are historic, just so you can sort of soak it in. And obviously the refinery is one of those. Another one is the Continental Hotel, which we mentioned, the Graham Green Hotel. So if you're a bit of a bookworm and nostalgic and stuff like that, you can sit there. And actually on

Sundays, I think it is. Often on Sundays, the vintage cars will come out and I'll just park there. And the guys who have got these really old vintage cars, they'll want to show off their cars to people and they just park them there. Oh.

People come along, take photos and you can have some sex on the beach or a blue lagoon or, you know, those old school cocktails back in the 70s. I mean, I wasn't around then but you might remember. I might remember. Another one, I just mentioned Tandin before where the pink church is. Not too far up the road there's a pho place, pho noodle soup place called Pho Bin.

and it was a Vietcom safe house during the war, and that's where they orchestrated the attack on the U.S. Embassy in 1968 for the Tet Offensive.

And so what you can do is you can go there and have a bowl of fur and then for a small fee you can go upstairs and they've still got the room set up basically how it was back in 1968. And so it was a cover for all the top brass to go up there and have meetings and stuff like that. And there's photos around.

of the father of the sons who still own the place. The sons are, you know, probably in their 70s now or something like that. And there's old photos there. So you can sort of soak it in a bit. And not too far away is a place called Cafe Dolfo.

And it was also a similar sort of place. And, Kerry, I think you'll leave a – I'll send you a – I'll give you a link and map and location and stuff like that. Thank you. And it's quite a cool little spot to go because it was another one of those places that was sort of, you know, during the war, under everybody's noses, you know. The spies were coming in and out. And then allegedly across the street there was a Korean –

you know, soldiers barracks and the soldiers, the Korean soldiers used to go in there and have breakfast. Little did they know that it was actually a VC safe house sending messages and listening in to their conversations. So, and that's still there and it's a national relic. So, and it's free. Yeah.

Okay. To check out. So, yeah, but there's a whole lot of other things and if I think of them, I'll let you know. Well, the great thing about talking with you, Matt, is that you've got a library of –

YouTube videos, bits and bobs. I'm glad because my memory is going. I was actually thinking coming to talk to you, how's he going to remember all that? And then I thought, no, it doesn't matter because, you know, there's that thing called the World Wide Web. Yeah.

And it means that I can send links to you. So don't worry, listeners, if you think, oh, God, I need to keep up with this or I need to read this very, very long transcript, which it's turning out to be. I'm going to put some links in. You're going to be able to go straight to Matt's pages and his YouTube videos. On the odd occasion, I do a podcast as well. Yes. There's a podcast, the Bureau Asia podcast. That's how I found you, Matt, if you remember. Oh, okay.

So anything to wrap up with that we want to leave people with as far as Saigon? I just think if you're coming to Saigon, try not to think of it as a, you know. Leapfrog. Yeah. Spend a bit more time. Spend a few nights here. I think three nights might at least do it. Yeah, three to four nights. Come with an open mind. Do everything in the morning or in the evening. Leave.

The middle of the day. Leave the middle of the day for you back at the hotel and have your nana nap or whatever. Yeah, or by the pool or whatever. I'm big on that because the heat creeps up on you and then next thing you're ready to pass out. And pick a time of year.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And typically I tell people around about Christmas, the end of the year is good for Saigon. Not too sure what it's like in Hanoi. Pretty chilly that time of year, isn't it? Getting December, January, it's starting to cool off dramatically. Yeah. Yeah, it drops because, you know, you're up near the China border and, you know, it's a totally different. But all the storms are pretty much done by then. Yes. It's just cold. You know, this time of year now, Chang tends to cop it a little bit. We get a bit of rain here this time of year, but.

Christmas is done. Saigon is good. Okay, Matt, thanks for being on the show. You're welcome. Anytime. It's been great to have you. I really appreciated Matt coming on the program. As promised, you'll find a lot of the links to Matt's website and his social media platforms, including his podcast.

We mentioned a few different places to visit in Saigon. I'll also include those links. So please go to the website whataboutvietnam.com to find those or check your podcast channel for information and the transcript. Thank you and I look forward to sharing more Vietnam travel stories next episode. Thank you for listening. Music

What about Vietnam?