3D Printing Today #552
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Three, printing today show member five fifty two, impact of updates, printing speed, shelf curling.

Welcome back to three d printing today, the podcast about all aspects of three d printing, hobby, professional, industrial, IT doesn't matter. We covered all. My name is andy corner, mister witty, and I am pretty good. I'm not feel very hungry.

This is article. Take what you have.

fear, anger. I look at this and i'm thinking, no, this does not work. This does not work for me. Rival foods is announcing that they are in a partnership with this company called .

polio to .

make O L O O lio, to make three d printed cement or right.

see. Now the problem with this, I look at him like, well, i'm not going to be the first one to eat IT you you got to go first but that sounds like eating. I'll never get to try to try IT, but I don't .

want to be the first one.

No you're the one that mr. Vegetable I know I very much much um but yeah it's a it's interesting. This is another one of those things like .

the um what is that the impossible .

burger or not bad not that bad, right? They're taking elements of they are taking like hem protein, which is Normally found in meat, and putting IT in massive quantities in a otherwise plant based product and telling us that this is somehow an improvement over something that we've been eating for hundreds of thousands of years. And now we ve got .

something that's rather novel, a multiple impossible burgers. And i've had many times multiple impossible sausage. sure. And actually it's really good yeah in the reason why it's really good is because they put the bad stuff in IT, the stuff that you're supposed to be avoiding in the first place.

So we'll see when when the salmon comes out. It'll it'll be interesting. Um I don't I can't say I really see this is a great advantage, although A A farm salon is is certainly a very substantial environmental impact.

I don't think .

you're it's very different.

but I don't think you're getting the advantages of eating salmon by eating this really printed salmon.

Well, yeah, that's that's a good question. Um and and if you if you look at some of the pictures in the article, kind of like you know if you like sausage, you don't want to know how the sausage is made, right so it's like I told my kids, oh, if you like hot dogs you really don't learn know how they are made you know my wife would always say, oh oh are those hot dogs fully cooked, right?

If I was serving some entries that I make sure the hot dogs are fully good sweet, all hot dogs are fully cooked or all hot dog is a liquid ood so waste a well, they call IT meat Better so yeah, it's kind of it's a paste. okay. So now we're basically doing that with Simon. Um but it's um well, you know the one thing I can say for IT is IT won't have any bones, that's sure. So there's an improvement.

okay? Well, maybe they'll put the bones in just .

to make IT more.

And so what's coming up on our show this week with me.

let's see, showed number five, fifty two. We're starting I start up with the impact of up. We're going to discuss printing speed and then take a look at shelf curling.

Let's get into IT.

OK, we're going to fall into the the trap of one side versus another. H, no, we're not talking about politics, but anyway.

this is politics. Okay.

so I use a mac for just about everything I do. And and i've i've had i've had a map in one thousand nine hundred and eighty four, the first mac, and i've loved max. And for quite a while I use the max at at work as well.

And then I moved up north and I got my wouldn't be my first PC, but I bought a PC and I never updated the man and I lived in the windows world for years and years and years developing in the windows world working for hp. Um and then when hp can sold often, we split off. I went back and got a new mac and I went back to the mac and I kind of a have both underneath my desk.

I have a very powerful PC with A A nice GPU and IT pretty potent. And on my my desk above my desk, i've got a mac pro, the trash conversion. Now it's now it's eleven years old.

I think it's ready for the trash.

Well, IT runs brilliantly. We're recording on IT right now.

right.

seven years old, seven years old. And IT runs like a chapter. No reason to look at IT and think it's about to die. It's never really die or anything serious happened to IT. We had our trials, tribulations with logic .

every now is run is going to yeah.

it's got a half a terror by D. S. D. In IT.

And I got a whole series of hard drive connected to IT kay. And it's always worked fairly well. I hear .

for quite .

a while, I think we started this podcast with IT. This is related to three d printing because at some point yesterday, I got a call from a person on working with, on developing a specific item. And I load up fusion three sixty, and I get a little banner at the top of the window, in the banner at the top of the window on fusion three sixty. IT says coming in march, fusion said three sixty will only run on the latest macintosh s and one step down from the latest macintosh. Well, unfortunately, my trash cam mac pro um stopped updating quite a while ago because it's eleven years old yeah they the apple test set states quite blatantly that they will only support their products depending on the product for a car asset amount of time and and the mac it's um I recall five to seven years and fusion .

of three sixty just um for the record does that with windows two that I have some older older machines that I tried to run fusion for sixty on IT. I forget what how many versions they support. It's more than more than two, but it's but there does come a day when you when they will no longer support you, which is like, so why couldn't you just know? Let me run the old version of IT, which works brilliantly.

I be cool with the tube or when you went through the cloud, when you Operate to the cloud, is going to interface with .

some aspect of IT in the if there was any a commercial incentives for them to do that, they could I mean, they could make a version run on older machines because IT runs out. All machines already are just matter of having something. Look at what machine you're running and then give you the right version. But they have no commercial intent of to do that. So they're not .

going to well, i'm going to take their side um because I was in that camp when I worked at hp to support the product that's in the field is an expense is not a cheap expense. It's the the budget is almost as large as the R N T budget, not as large as the R N T budget, though. I'm hearing at my old place that worked that that marketing support budgets been killed.

But when I worked there, um IT was almost as high a budget as R N D. And that's that's a lot of money. So what machines can you support? You can support your products that are older and and I have been replaced because at some point you're not making any money.

I mean, IT was IT was not cheap to make something in in united states to begin with. As I recall, this is probably a different number today. But when I was there in the world of cubicles and networked computers and meetings and powerpoint, you had to sell something for at least sixteen thousand dollars to make a dollar.

It's probably higher today, I imagine. And so you can't support every product that's ever gone out your door. At some point, you have to say i'm going to support the product i'm selling or have sold last year.

There was a difference supporting i'm i'm just saying IT here IT is I mean, I have old versions of adobe products that I that pre cloud that run just fine on my laptop. They don't have all the latest features and everything, but I have old versions of of microsoft products, old versions of office that actually I like Better because don't have all the new crap. I don't A I popping up telling me that me with whatever um but is like they work.

they work but they're .

unsupported. Yeah but but now it's like it's like IT may work, but you can have IT because of the yeah and I think I think that we're losing something and that of course, I mean, the company is gaining in something that because basically they can turn off your product, right? But with any of cloud based products like, well, like you can't just have a legacy machine that runs this old version of IT and do that for the next two decades. Now we turn IT off and you have to buy a new one that .

makes me wonder. I know that sounds like i'm going off topic, but i'm not. He makes me wonder, does D, J, I still support their older trans?

A good question.

Because if they don't, then you can bet they .

could just turn them off. Yeah.

they. But you can bet that bamboo labs is gonna low the same. And I know when you think about IT also, you know even a company like purse, they could easily just like maker botton ultimately er did say, hey, we're not supporting the replicator and you longer. We're not going to support the mark one.

That's fine. That means that means we don't want to get your emails and your phone calls about IT OK. I understand, but but not supporting the same. Okay, your hardware .

now the there .

is a different, there is a different and it's like, I know what what would windows do to itself if it's said, okay. So we are now on windows thirteen. You have six months to upgrade or else your machine is a brick, you know. I mean, I mean, they would never get away context .

in which they do get away with IT. And let me give you a big one, really.

really, really big one. Quick books. Okay.

quick books is in so many businesses IT. IT was in my business. I got sucked into quick books.

Oh, it's so inexpensive. Hundred and fifty box. Start with quicking. That's your that's like .

the the drug that way way drug.

Start with quick and then you build up to quick books. And then every two years you have to call up I back I think was like five hundred, six hundred bucks to update your quick books. And guess what, just like everything else in our world, quick books has to go on the latest machines because they're not going to support them on the older machines. So every four, five years, I had update all my IT, all my pcs. They all had to be brand new ones with the latest Operating systems.

And what if you didn't update quick books?

Um um I mean.

you would be out of date with tax codes.

Yes, I be out of date with tax codes. I have problems making. I mean, the I could not run my business.

I just simply could not run my business. I was over a barrel. I was stuck. Same thing that happened in the 3d printing world OK。

The exact same thing bring IT.

So this discussion that we're about to do was in um as a function of the posts um started by a user on our forum whose handle is rise with rest who asked about increasing his print speed .

OK um and .

um when he posted that I ask, well, you is IT because you want your products faster if IT is just get another prior, is IT because you need to print a single object much faster well then are you just .

doing that for fund .

these know are you doing this for fun? And I asked, in any case, the next person who I really want to give credit to for this, for this one, is, let's see, where is IT mill? Come on, where are you due? His handle is new mill rail and new mill rail posted about how he increased the speed of his ender three um using sonic pad with clipper and I took issue with that um and I tried to be diplomatic about IT clip is great.

I'm not going to say anything bad about clipper. I mean clipper's great where performer is great, self visuals great. I mean these people made some great products with these these open source firm where um activities and they deserve the credit um they deserve um whatever support we can give them um there's no argument about that.

Um however, I can argue with him saying that clipper is a reason for increase speed. Clipper is a reason for clip enables increased speed up when you are using an eight bit board or more importantly, here this is what a lot of people don't realize aboard that doesn't that uses a thirty two bit and a thirty two bit processor, full database. I say that because there are inexpensive chinese boards that say they're thirty two bit and they don't necessarily go with a full thirty two bit data path.

Again, a thirty tupid data path gives you a thirty two bid word into your processor at that cycle, right on that cycle that gets a full thirty two bid word. That's where you get the truly enhanced through, but you'll get enhances through. But when it's a sixteen bit word or in a bit word, but not truly enhanced as with you get with clipper. But what clipper does is IT makes that irrelevant and IT takes your a bit board and IT does all the work and just sends you a bit board in the bit processor with the apid database, the bare minimum that is going to do so IT right only does the print doesn't have to do any other data processing.

Yeah because all the the controlling the steer motors doesn't take that much control and doesn't take that much power because there's only so many cycles you can send per second to the step motors to actually have them work the way you want them to, right? right?

So my point is, is that clipper or a full thirty two bid board like a do IT, if you want to go with one that I know as a full thirty two pid, none. We will enable you to go away faster by virtue of generating the tool path commands um with much more precision and much, much, much, much faster. Our old ipid boards would slow the penner down because the APP ID would simply couldn't keep up.

So that's where you get your speed boost your speed enabling with either a thirty stupid bath or clip, which both really cool. Way to go. Don't go. Wait bit me more. It's not worth IT.

But keep in mind that if you buy a thirty two a full thirty two bit board like a do IT and you put clipper on IT, okay, but you're not going to get any enhanced speed. You'll get some enhancements for sure that are worth IT. But that s not where your speed increase is onna come from? Where is your speed increase? Come from on.

on.

on the printer, on the printer. Yeah, come on in your country. Okay, your country, right. So before we had cox, why you couldn't go that quick when you had linear barring on on those cylindrical rails and .

a lot of moving mass.

a lot of moving mass, we're talking the fastest we could go before we saw effects were maybe one hundred millimetres a second. Usually all of my printers that have that kind of a GTI are eighty millimeters a second average, average.

Now when we talk about a mental where the bed is moving and why all of the mass of the bed is moving in and your print, all that material, all that mass is moving and why and typically moving and why on dollar on wheels, you're not onna get stability. The lack of you're not going to get backlash control because that's not with core X Y. You've got the push in the pull happening. Simple tane ously. So IT eliminates almost all of the backlash you get with .

the gt two belt.

right? Gt two belt have have a little little teeth and there's gaps in those teeth. And when you stop and go back and forth, those gaps give you backlash. The way to get around that is you create a path for the, for the belt where IT cancels that out. Core X, Y gives us that so corny, a core X, Y gantry and A Z height control that uses super good quality lead screws and dr. Linda guides and or or this is or not and or um a bulkers quality bolsters and you'll get that up and down security, you will not get backlash up and down. But in terms of speed.

your U Z access is the last thing you need to worry about because it's you're not moving IT very fast.

We have well, if you use the hopping well true can really affect you yeah .

but you're you're not moving IT very far yeah but the accuracy is certain ly important but .

yeah but the kind of speed that I think we're talking about our accent, why gotto have a correct y gentry system and you've got to use in your guides. So the lending your guides in the correct why will let you go above a hundred millimetres per second and how fast can you then legitimately um well before we get into legitimated, let's assume that we can really make IT go that fast and we'll tell you the all of the complications about noting what that speed actually is later.

But for the moment, let's assume we've controlled at all if you're going above about my my my research years ago was one hundred and two hundred and twenty millimeters per second and I control my acceleration and I have all the features of the slicer turned on to one hundred and twenty million second. Um I get effects from the momentum of the liquid material in between the novel and the print itself. That little tiny point two millimeter height of liquid material has its own .

flying around certain point.

And you start to see overshoots, you start to see layers that we know, one layers a bit off than the other layer. You start to see these little effects. And its slowly builds up to create what becomes a rather mediocre inchi or i'm not that creative, a bencher not super clean, go faster IT gets worse. Um how do I fix that? Well, the only way I can get IT to stop doing that because there's no way to control the momentum of the liquid stuff that's in there unless you .

make your layer heights smaller and less out.

right? And then I was able to control the the that but then I would take longer to print. And so the speed, the advantages of the speed were negated. Well, well, the advantage of speed .

is still there. You're got a higher quality print in less time.

Yeah, yes, yes. And that was the advantage. And that's what we saw with the clone r one years ago.

So there are these complications in in saying what speed you're going at. So be careful when you say, oh, I can print to one hundred and fifty millimetres per second. How do you know that? Well, if you're using process a slice as you dial .

IT into the firm, where are you dial that into the slice? Whatever you saw that one fifty there, you assume that that actually is happening on the not it's not.

So let's talk about process slicer because that's the one I use these days. But this is the case with current as well. And to some degree, it's the case even as early as simplify three day. And that's the features of the tool ath, such as, 对 the tightness of the curve， the straightness of the line, the length of the line.

how fast you're accelerating.

Let's hold off on acceleration for a moment. This is just the features of the tool picture on Bruce slice is like a dozen different speeds that you said. So there's no one speed.

It's like a dozen speed with an average, and there's no calculation of that average because IT changes on the yes. So how would you know if you're printing at that speed? Well, you'd have to set every feature of that tool path control to that speed.

okay. So then you get close to what we had back in twenty eleven. Remember that when we have the original slices before simplify 3d， the gino maker bot slices where IT was just here's your speed.

Here's your travel speed, here's your print speed, here's acceleration OK. Then we monkey with acceleration as the means of governing what's happening while you're in tight spaces and small parts. Well, you need to get what what is acceleration?

I'll let you take them like you.

Well, it's how how fast you get up to maximum speed, basically when when you're initiating movement in a certain direction, right? And so if you don't have a sufficiently high acceleration value set and if you're doing short little tool paths, then you never get up to your high speed, right? And so raising your your maximum speed doesn't have any effect on the time your print takes because you're never going to achieve your maximum to be.

And the thing is just sitting there looking at how fast your printer is going, you ve got no idea how fast is going. You you can't tell legist with your eye how fast the pressure is going. You may feel that, well, I turned IT up to two hundred and fifty millimeters per second and now it's really flying um but if you are not actually measuring that in some meaningful way, you got no idea. If you're actually achieving those things with a very large printer, this becomes very apparent. Yes, because you can see IT because you've got i've got almost a meter over which my printer can accelerate and you definitely you can see and you can hear the acceleration process.

And by the way, you left this out, it's not just how fast at that time IT takes to get up to speed, is the time IT takes .

to break well deserves another factor.

yes. So it's going. And if you listen to our song at the beginning, in the end of this podcast, you hear IT on my old rep. two.

You can hear the acceleration because back then, the vote, the current being used on these stepper motors, but you can control, yeah, where is high enough so that IT made a noise, and hear the motor's these days, old school drivers in that, yeah, these days they're nice and silent. You don't hear IT as much, but it's still a way that these printers es work. And if we didn't have IT, you know what would happen to an end?

Three at eighty.

eighty millimeter, let's say forty millimeters. So that off the table, go write, off the table would go out, out, out of, out of register. Really easy.

right? yeah. I think the only way to really know if you're affecting the speed of your print is to choose a standard print in a test cube or even a bench or whatever whatever you decide your hundred is. And then print IT and time, how long IT takes to print IT, and then change your speed and print another one and time, how long that takes that one to print. And you may find that you've turned your your prince speed from you from one hundred to one hundred and fifty and IT didn't change the overall client takes to print right the thing at all because you're never getting to your maximum speed. Um so that's just to think about .

yeah so some suggestions. If you really want to increase your print speed, you're using a mental you've got dolin wheel. Here's where you can imprint your increase your principle, be and not effect quality as much, not at all probably. And that's by increasing your travel speed. Now that's a function not necessarily of your print quality will not necessary think your print celi would will affect is the reliability of staying in register .

right at at some point you will just drive things so fast that you start dying steps, what that IT looks like shifting layers actually right.

So your z height will be um not optimal. You'll see shifting in your za height if if it's really bad, it'll shift all the way and little room in the printing right away so you can experiment with that to get IT as fast as you can before you start to see those effects by just putting up a print test, you know, thing where it's printing two, two columns and jumping from one to the other, that one e one layer, one wall, do IT really quick and get to see how fast you can go before whatever print you using starts to have trouble with IT. Again, it's not a function of your form where it's a function of your gentry and how everything works together.

We've talked about this before. This is A A three printing defect that happens um I should give credit where credits do on our on our forum. Um someone brought this up um in a jeff seventeen seventeen eighty three rainer jeff seventeen eighty three and thank you for posting on there to bring up the the issue. We we though we have talked about IT before and that's when you have and i'm i'm going to give IT a name because nobody's named IT so i'm going to named IT. I'm going to call IT shelf curling.

okay. So what do you mean by that?

So you have a good example is if you have like a sphere and you're printing the sphere, you've got a flat on the bottom of the sphere so you can print IT without worrying about IT at the sides of the sphere and a sloping upward in a diagonal. And the wall of your sphere stands by itself. And it's it's kind of a shallow shelf that comes out sideways, right? So underneath that, there is quite a bit of an overhang, but you don't need support because the printers kind of taking care of that IT IT goes of bridges that are of does a little IT little bit of vertical lines to spread IT out a little bit and smears IT out and he gets IT out there and it's got this nice thin shelf that's coming out. And then because of the stinky is slowly bends up, curling up.

it's curling upwards.

So you have a shelf that sit out in the air and in the shrinkage gets IT and IT slowly crows upward and then your nose l crashes into right parts road. How do you deal with that?

Good question.

And that was the question raised on our form. So there's a couple ways of doing IT. Um some folks came in and suggested this right ways to increase downtown.

calling that could help or that could make IT worse.

Well, I tried that and sometimes that works. I will most the time and i'm putting P L A on that one hundred percent anyway.

But when I get these kind of problems, um I have opened up the containment is usually in in the race 3d and I put in an an additional fan。 I've got IT kind of sitting on my shelf over versy that that fan right it's a small fan that fits on the bed or or near the bed can hang IT from the gentry aiming IT right at the object that i'm printing and that increases IT decreases the hardening time for the multon depend, but IT also decreases the temperature at the novel. So you have to then increase your nozzle temp kind of baLance IT from one to another as .

you're now printing in a hurricane's ctia.

Li, yes, ideally you want to fun of the wind into a tuban aimed right at the print, but no matter what you do, you're at the hot end. You're going to get some blow blow out on the hot end and you're going to have that complication .

why you need your little need a they're a little silver ck on IT well, yeah.

but it's the the nazi itself and yeah, you'd have to cover up the sides of the nazi and but IT also changes the temperature of liquid material. So to get the same fusion of the material, you're going to have to be careful how hot IT is and how much how much when you're putting in there. So he doesn't a little complicated on another approach is to change the orientation of your object.

If it's possible so that, that overhanging shelf is not there, rotate IT slightly, then you may have the problem of not having a flat to print on or a proper use of um overhangs and then you may be at stuck with support structures. Okay, oh, i've got the perfect solution. What's the perfect absolutely .

perfect solution?

Has worked one hundred percent for me every time since I started using IT, so I no longer worry about this issue.

Culture sphere in half and print IT with the cutt side down.

You can't do that if it's a shelf coming up on an object like a statue or something. Every use case it's worked. Every case it's worked worked IT IT works really.

really well. Does involve for contacts.

full contact support provides provides that holding mechanism right on the underneath of the shelf there is a mechanical bond, that is the the shape of the surface of the supports get you print right onto that and there's the kind of melt into that shape that's enough to holda down.

Think of support as being for things that are overhanging, and we want to keep the them up. But support also has the opposite effect and holds things down. And not .

typically for breakaway .

IT depends on .

the density of your .

you might not break IT away very easily. Get here with .

with full contact support. You can hold me down and and you pop IT off when you're all done. problems.

Old boy, wait in another show written to the hard waiting for encoding. Upload a commitment on our feed for all of our very support lists. Thank you out there for your support on patron.

Thank you for all your support on those britain reviews. And thanks. We're listening.

We do IT for fun. We're not heard to make any money. We're not here to sell anything. We're really not here to get you to eat three printed salmon. My partner here wants to continue the discussion on three printer OK.

I just think about.

you know, they make IT .

smell like salmon that really makes me creepy. I mean, there's a smell good sam, or is a smell bad samon that they had .

sitting there for a day.

okay. So so the interesting thing about this, I was thinking about IT after we wrapped up the intro, is that really the the whole three depending element of this is is to make know the differentiation between the muscle bans and a little fat lines. So instead, right? So i'm looking like, why don't we like use the same technology, make IT look like alien sam and .

make IT like sam lon 6， sam, you ever read the the legend of hero? No, a great science fiction book. And in there, there are these.

They're reading this fish called samon. IT tastes like salmon. Turns out it's the the babies of a monster that it's them. Great book, great book. By the way.

you can make IT sample. Yeah, there you go. Three party alien. You've got a thing of the way.

I got a thing of the week. This week, a few, a few episodes back, we talked about three printing a, uh, maybe that was a segment. Was that a segment? Or maybe .

it's coming possibly.

Yeah, we three d printed a replacement clamp for a lamp that is very popular and sold through .

ika and very large pronounce and called the Young lap.

It's a clip on lamp, but that's an L, D, and it's got a flexible neck and it's really cool. I've got two of them right here on my keyboard and .

i've got a lot of them.

They're awesome. They're only like fifteen bucks and their their ac plug in with a little switch that really nicely made the clips. So do break and we will be covering how to replace the clip with in any case.

Um there's a uh shade that you can buy because if you look at its sideways, the glass kind of bulge is out and the light you get that light. So there is a shade that came out quite a while ago on thing averse. And let's see, it's called the the iria. yo. Lampshade.

are you there? Yeah, I am IT. IT comes to us from a user named funerary, although I known as fan clouse nicer from germany.

You are going to be printed a couple of these up. He does mention that you want to in a in decrease the size overall by a couple of percentage points, printing IT at ninety percent because it's slightly in large IT slides on and into the the shape of the lamp itself and it's getting IT got a lot of rave review. So if you've got one of these lamps, this might be for you, this might be a great thing of the week. And if you're interested looking at at its thing number one, eight, zero, eight, nine, two, six from eric, eric, let's if you've got a tip question or candidate thing waiting for a send .

to info at three printing today dot com. That's T H R E E followed by or d fallowed by printing today dot com.

Let's see again, i'd like to invite all if you're interested in becoming part of our community and join our forum. It's free with no advertising. Go to google groups.

Just go to google and type three d printing tips and tricks. And I will take you there. And when you get there, if you want to post, you can read, not do anything, you just go in there and read.

But if you want to say something, which I hope you will, go in there and look at the button that this joint group on the lower right hand side, give them an email. Please don't use your personal email. I don't want people getting span because of this podcast.

Make a gmail account just for talking on that forum, and you can actually use that email to interact with the forum. By the way, it's a Better way to go if you're using your phone for talking with the google group. Um let's see thing, let's see. We did the thing of the week coming attraction shown number five fifty three.

five fifty three.

D V, O, H. That's a new form of .

file for support. We're going to talk about vis cus lithography one.

And then we hearing that autodesk can dump all your fusion three sixty files.

Oh.

h that that would be bad. My guess.

That's IT. great. thanks. We're listening.