Interview: Diversity and entrepreneurship with Jill Tang
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That's R A D I I china dot com. Welcome to this latest episode of digital china. With us. We have jail the cofounder of ladies would take. And today you're gonna talk about both ladies who take entrepreneurship and also foreign brands. Welcome china.

a podcast about the .

fascine chinese induction created together with the radio Jacob and i'm tom.

So a point to various studies, china's gaming in the street is now in fact the largest in the may know their messaging out called .

me chess chinese outside the M. A. For international.

It's state.

it's claim the apples major deal over .

in china, your chinese tech giant ten ent leading at eight point six billion dollar opposition to buy a major stake is super cell.

forty two point three billion dollars in sales clock by a chinese e commerce site in one wild day.

Ladies who tech was started to and half years ago, but exact is on international women stay in two thousand seventeen. The concept was actually from my co founder shelling no SHE went to a massive thousand one tech conference in silicon valley. And then he was amazed, ed, as herself, she's a electric engineer background and SHE.

He has never seen a thousand women tech in the room who actually build cars, you know, build, playing and in, do cool stuff, right? And then he was like, well, why we don't have this in china? Then he came back to china and say, joe, let's do this together and then make this as a movement at that time.

how was the topics about female entrepreneurship in china?

I think overall, because i'm chinese myself, I move back from overseas to china for almost seven years. So I I can see um basically the changes. I would say, uh, now it's really friendly to do something here in china and the cost of setting up your own business is also not too expensive.

And then for the female part, I would say chinas will be different compared to outside the western world or the the rest of world because of the acceptance of women in the workplace is a very high. So in terms job placemen is fine. But then again, I think overall is a universal problem about the diversity.

We said diversity, right, doesn't matter it's in workplace or in a start up world. Um you often can see in a lot of conference always the page of the lisa speakers ninety person are mall, but then the whole world has fifty percent population women can we get more women contribute to you know like workplace, but also being an entrepreneur. And then to bring out the diversity in anything that we create for a more baLanced environment overall, we need to have more role models in a fema entrepreneur ship as well as in the workplace.

So actually in silicon I A few years ago, there has been a lot of discussion about you know sexism and except from being like from a Normal human perspective, if it's not been good enough, is also that you've seen that our VC have missed huge opportunities for products targeting. Know the other fifty percent? Yes, no, yes. Of the target audience. So are you seeing the same type of discussions within the investor community .

hearing china? I think that will type back into the still type or unconscious, as those are the two things that we actually need to slowly developing or changing the mindset of people on men is Better than women. A women is going to not be able to deliver certain things when they may be married, have a kid, they should stay at home. So I think in that perspective, yes, still have a lot of, uh, I was a disadvantage when women comes into become um you know entrepreneurs, even the leader in a company.

Yeah I mean, like one thing that I really love with ladies take and the content to produce, whether IT is conferences or just digital content, is that at least for me as a male, is educated me very much and Brown my eyes about a totally new set of different products and brands are out on the market. So i'm naturally not a consumer of these industries.

So therefore, of course, I them when browsing team all or whatever, right? And and that actually for me just have educated me quite a lot about these different business opportunities out there. Do you get that a lot that type of comments?

Oh yeah, I thank you so much. Firstly, tom, but our soga is tech has no enda. So for us, 可是 our mission is to improve the gender diversity inclusion in a stem industry in china， right? But that means we need to create, firstly, uh, inclusive and diversity environment, which means we need to include men to be part of the but in order to do this, our content doesn't matter is online offline events or online content IT needs to be more neutral in terms of content is we rather show off what women has been creating or building to show benefits.

Having a gender diversity in design product or doing a business instead of, oh, we are women, so we are so good look at us it's more about we show what they do and settled to influence. People say, hey, it's at a really good to have a diversity in my start up company or in a multi national companies, right? To have more diversified .

team entrepreneur. You do a lot of different things working with m and such. How did you get into that?

I think timing in china, we say timing, location, people. So I guess timing is perfect now for us to promote gender diversity in in the stem industry here right now in china to be onest that women in tech movement, we are five years behind the U. S.

Or europe, right? So for the multination companies, they already have awareness to increase enda diversity in order to have act growth for business, right, not only making money, but also making a social impact. Which two things can be done in one go right through different strategy? Which one of them is gender diversity?

So for us is a great timing because they've done IT overseas for five years ago. And then now it's just a strategy coming over to china. It's just matter of how that get implement well or not in china, right? That really giving us a very easy way to knock the door and talk to the M N C, which they already know the strategies in place globally, but it's more localized, the content, how they can work with us in china to be able to you know achieve the the result outcome they want to achieve. So so far we have been very lucky working with I mean, the tech companies such as google S A P or bear ha, you know, all of those large companies being very supportive by them as well as the government as well.

Why is this important for encies? Like from my china.

I think there top three on needs. What I can see, one is from recruit perspective, they wanted to create basically a employment branding to show to the talents. Hey, you know we are company really care about deficit inclusion. So to basic building up the employment pending, it's already a battle to find the best tech talents.

Why not think about another channel and another genders, right? Because actually china, there are lot of uh people are just studying in in computer science and engineering, right? But you know why not giving them one more option to looking at another enda, right? Also because it's Better for the product and design because if the pda is fit for agenda than to have more diversified team in a product team, tech team that will design A, I will say, more baLance product, which is more welcome by another gender, which means you will lead to Better cells in for your pl, why not? And third one is, of course, the impact. So you you basic combine recruitment, social impact and also economically return in one goal by promoting genotype y. So they all know is a good investment and is a smart investment.

So actually in this podcast before, we've talking a quite a lot about work culture. So either nine, nine, six or the very famous wolf culture of 华为 that did the episode about， and me h growing up abroad, uh, sometimes I get the very distinct feeling that, uh, some of these world cultures are, let's say, less mature when IT comes to maybe respecting people's private time, personal time, all that's up. Do you see a big difference between domestic tech companies and lets when he comes .

to diversity? Oh, and totally, I think you can see the M N sees the names that are we mentioned, which now we know china has more fortune five hundred companies than U. S.

Right now, right ranking, which is reason however, all of the masses we are working with for the odiously, the all foreign anties, we haven't worked with any chinese set comment though we are having conversation with them OK right. But seems like IT takes relatively longer for um to make that our same movement with those companies. So I think for chinese tech companies, IT will take a little bit longer.

I want to say education, peer time for them to realize for long term this is good for them. But again, if we can come up with a matrix that short term they can see the benefits, i'm sure they're willing to do IT. You know, if short term they can get benefit and what that will lead to the long term benefits, it's just we need to work out that, that formula first.

But I I think they're open to IT is just more about I was a different goal. You know, sometimes it's the pressure of timing, right? Yes, we wanna have diversity, but I really need someone to do this job right now to fulfill this director role, whether I should go for wait for diversity or actually I feel someone right now who is good enough, you know mean like this kind .

of conflict yeah well like I mean in these type of conversations when we talk about commanded or or western time companies that have the same type of arguments right um that a lot of C E S are saying, you know yeah of course I I want diversity but I have to survive or not and then there's two sides of that augmentation right once that is that no, you're just lazy because you should be able to do long term and short time at the same time on the other like their argument.

So for us, I know for some of the woman who you know getting the leadership role, sometimes they feel ohh my male counterparty think I got this role is because I woman, there's a quote within and still looking at me is because i'm capable for that role, right? But then I think because the male counterparties, they didn't realize the pool for that, that role is not baLanced.

You often get nine candidate from mail and one from women until we have five women and five men to apply for that that position. Then that's a point we can talk about. I only choose a candidate who is good for the job, not because of gender, yes. But until then, you still need to do the extra work to baLance that poor, right?

Because there's also a lot of other conversations regarding diversity, not only gender, and especially when I see is about mixing people with different backgrounds. Are these famous stories about, you know what not gal was as its largest the entire team management team were finish people, but the largest market with the chinese market. You yeah yeah and and maybe that's one of the reasons they failed.

We don't know. It's it's easy to judge them have their field right. But when he comes to this topic role about diversity, chinese tech companies versus d amens, do you feel that chinese take companies are more see .

or not china, in terms doing the device inclusion, are not, as would say, the scale or even awareness as ams? But once they realize that they might not need five or ten years to do IT, they are probably just gonna make a policy and make that happen. That's ener.

We call the china speed, yes, right? But no one knows when that gonna en IT can be in two years, IT can be in another five years. But no matter the timely, we still need to continue to work on this movement, which I think IT make sense for china to adapt this movement because it's line with the strategy for the country overall anyway.

So it's all benefits more than just, you know, like the downsides. And I really hope the chinese tech company will start at least having conversation. Try to look inwards about the the diversity pot yeah so thanks .

to your your kind of leadership within the community and you been involved with a lot of very large companies and their overall innovation efforts that would call IT more than only in a diversity. You are actually launching a brand accelerator and and the investment unit called cosmic ventures looking at new brands. And so tell me, what are the large friends you see in the B2C mar ket her e in .

chi na rig ht now? Um I think for the consumer here now, they became relatively more than than before. And because they're getting more um traveled one people getting education from overseas. So I think the personalize cosme experience is weighted more valuable than just you have money and you buy expensive lucky goods, right?

So to create a personal experience, more cosmic experience, for those people who really wanted to show what they wear, what they use to show their personal identity, is become one more important, especially the malaysians, right? So not only recruit, we need to understand about millan, but as a consumer, as a brands, you need to understand the chinese millenium, what they like. And in work on channel, they get information, right? That's why I think to launching cosmic accelerator ventures is very important for us to work with brands together.

One is to do a basically marketing tests or the validation in the china market, I would say, over china asia to basically minimia cost of a test instead of a big chunk of investment in beginning before even you understand your market to test your product and then leads towards to a more smart investment. This market, which is of course, is one point four billion people, is great market for for all the brands, right? But I just need to be smart about IT how to run IT right with the right china and right people.

So I think for us, we hope to work with brand who is sustainable. Sustainable not only in terms of money is but also environment wise. Or we always talk about the Green products, that kind of mindset as well as is scalable and then um basically ready to go here. So we really hope that we can find like minded brands that we can work together and grow together in, in china. So that's why firstly, china is not why market.

So the product you selling shanghai, the language or the social media channel use might be completely different when you are trying to sell in 青 hai or 成都， write that cities completely different channel, different language use to market product, or different key opinion leaders you are going to use. So the complexity of the market here in china, it's not easy. It's really hard.

I used to have the mindset with oversea brands. You know, I wanted to have a proper market research, come up with strategy and then have a whole picture, and then I will go for IT, right? But then as entrepreneur r both of us, right, we have that mindset is okay.

We put IT as we go, which I work out really well here in china. Sometimes you just need to be open minded. You don't need to wait until the perfect strategy is ready.

You go, but be smart about IT take a small budget on testing the market, come up with your minimal viable product strategy and then you can pave IT as you go instead of using a against the traditional big company's mindset. But i'm not saying to forget about what they used to do adapting the china way only. I think again, the right baLance. So I think they need to be a combination of of this.

So I think is about trees. You're in the intersection between multinationals, domestic entrepreneurs, foreign entrepreneurs. And then there is a complexity, which is as a category of chinese entrepreneurs, they are both foreign and domestic. Do you started abroad but come back? Do you see any distinct differences between them?

I think i'm category in one path, which is I still think i'm not very 接地气。 I don't know if I can be translate properly into shes even me as local chinese who were born to grow up here. I'm still not that localize in a way, so you can see a huge difference between the local local chinese interpreter urs compare to the international chinese entrepreneur.

An international is not even someone who were born and grew up overseas. I mean, someone who are to study overseas and coming back, right, even those two category are can be very different in terms of mindset and the way how they approach things IT will be reflect on even how the organize events, what kind of term they use right during that kind of environment. Um so it's it's very, very different.

I think the local chinese entrepreneurs, definitely with that wolf a gene right and and six, I would even joking say zero, zero, seven days you don't have time to rest for me. I know that you you need to be working really hard to get the result, but I still really care about the baLance. And then especially the spirit ality or the mythical ness pot for me to really figuring out what I want to do in long term, instead of, oh, I work zero zero seven IT compromise my health, my family or my time 啊。

Because to me, life is not only about your stuff, but overall picture. So I think that's the difference I see to me is like think building a take herself um it's still a mainstream here, right I I building this hot coat doesn't matter is a hot ware or it's software. Whatever the platform made is the mainstream is still where what's what's popular, getting investment.

But I slowly can see a trend of the one who already achieved safe. For example, I think the C E O of sogo, I remember when to conference and hear what he was talking, is now he's really start slowing paying attention to at the mythical is part because he realized being always so busy on building stuff is actually now when he achieve where he is, is blocking the creativity to go even bigger. yeah.

Well, after fifteen, twenty years of building this, what's next now? right? So now he's slowly actually stop thinking about what can unblock his creativity and which is gonna the past, right?

So when you building in tech itself is not only for its cool, it's going to raise money. Is gonna me a billion your IPO in three, five years time and he was next? So I think the people like them, they start already thinking about IT. Is just when is gonna reflect on their work? We don't know.

But that raises very interesting question. Is IT possible to build a tech company in china in the current climate, in the current type of competition, without being that very local type of entrepreneurs? No ready to work. Zero.

zero seven, I think not IT. For me, the god feeling is maybe will taken out of five years, the leadership that i've seen here for the entrepreneur s is a lot of them still a very good at building stuff, but lot of them not really apply themself. And looking ff, the beauty in the bigger picture. Yes, they are successful. IT works in china, but if you look at a global, the I, I still can see the difference between the vision between the chinese entrepreneurs, and then actually the big one from from the world.

They still very different. So would that be okay to summarize that the very successful chinese entrepreneurs now for director will probably including pony, my jack mouth, so so let's see, just generation below would IT be fair to someone as to say they are really strong at Operation execution? Well, maybe the western treatment r is more about vision and product strategy.

Yeah, I think even not only in entrepreneur r is is even the employee wise like to tell in wise yes you can see um the chinese are very good at excuse person but um and then I think a lot of the creative side， either we import, I would say from overseas or chinese at studied overseas.

So I would say back to the question that you actually and ask me before, right, whether the chinese actually are able or is going to transit building attack, but also without that kind of nine and six zero, I think possible. But the possibility of those entrepreneurs s probably will be someone like us, right? We were born and grew up here.

We understand both votes. We just need to find the right product and right baLance. And then that will happen because I think the big companies working really well here IT, doesn't mean they working well when they go overseas, right? It's just big name.

We all need in china, of course, are huge. But when you actually go overseas, when you look at them in that country is not as what they say here, right? So yeah so I still think, uh, you know they need to learn from each other.

Yeah i'm actually very conflict about that. That's an entrepreneur, ina, about this topic because just give you a concrete example. The way we work with product development is that where they are driving.

So we find a few problems to solve. Let's say conversion is bad in this certain user scenario. Let's fix the conversion, right? And then there are two ways for you to fix IT.

I was in a very local domestic way, which is the that the manager or the CEO just says, okay, these five solutions execute on them, make sure they are online, my end of day. So we, so I get data right? And then there is the more western way to do IT, which is that I has a team. alright.

Can you just please think about and be creative? Look at other apps, what they do by a blad. So we find one solution we believe in and then we execute on that one solution instead, make sense.

And before doing any company in china, there are only that solution that you focus on one solution, then you try to fix IT, right? But now when i've seen the likes of D, D, having twenty different product teams everyday doing stuff, but the only one gets approved, that's a totally different minds, a totally a different way to run product development in an innovative space, you would call IT. Have you seen any concrete examples of what work worth what doesn't? Or is this just a value decision?

You I think is also depends on who is the person does execution? Um if they are less creative or with critical mindset, I would say we'll giving them direction with five solutions, get them to do and and see whatever it's working or not and then slowly developing them along way and say, hey, here's a five solution that give to you and then maybe you can also come up with certain solutions you think is work because you are local here you are the client from facing person.

You know bad the client then we do as management team and then let's even come up with more creative solution on top of the five we give to you. But yeah, I think still need a direction first and then still encouraging them to come up with a solution which is more suitable for the local market. Couple of solutions in parallel.

We wrap up today. I want to cover a new topic. You move to china about seven years ago. Right around that time, we saw this huge hype and optic in entrepreneurship.

You know you have these classic stories about venture capitalists hanging out around by those officers for allied officers, just trying to get people to quick and give the money to start the companies, right? So my instant reaction around that time is that I saw a new generation of people that actually were not entrepreneurs that quit their job just because they got, you know, VC money to do something. But not really underline how different the real life is. How have you seen the development of entrepreneurs and especially take entrepreneurs are in china?

Well, firstly, the entrepreneurship is a lifestyle. It's not just defined by, oh, you start a company, your entrepreneur is whether you actually enjoy beyond treating neun in the life style that you are sign up for, right? So I think now the investors or VS that become smarter, smarter on what kind of project or people the money they are going to invest to um for a lot of take company obviously rely on the capital to scale.

But now it's more about okay, whether you are sustainable yourself, whether you will have a cash floor profitable instead of rely on burning investors money, right? So that's why we say it's a winter for investment market here for projects. But I think if your product and projects great, there's no winter for you.

I mean, you know if you can prove that you are sustainable, you are good product like then i'm sure you can get the money easily yeah to me is people are so into the concept being entrepreneur. But I always say there's a lot of room being entrepreneurs, right, to stop their companies, but they not doing anything. They fail in a year or two.

And then maybe enjoying the concept of being entrepreneurs. I'm in zone. Be entrepreneurs s like there will be a lot of companies registered or every year, but how active they are, right? So to me is all about, I know for sure I entrepreneurs is not by the value.

How much I create right now for the company is more about, I like to constantly create and I enjoyed entrepreneur or start up. Let's stop very much if you ask me to go back to CoOperate. I not imagine a day sitting in the company unless maybe in the more innovation department probably I can do because some of my entrepreneurship end they they decide to to go about corporate but more innovative environment.

So yeah so I I I think more and more people more rational now about to start something themselves. But I still can see the passion from the millennium s as well and millions us are so smart um I learned a lot from those people. And I think overall in china, the entrepreneur ship ecosystem, I think still a lot of people passionate about IT, which is great.

So i've learned a lot today jail. And thank you so much for being here with us. So tell our listings where can they find you online?

Oh follow me on instant gram um so you can find me a linking by searching joe 堂 um or you can find me on the other social media instagram with jo eight one zero。 I am pretty much across all of the social media so you can easily find me online.

So if you are curious about anything we've talked about today, you feel free to reach out to jail directly. And as always, thank you for listening to digit china. And we are available on linked in and facebook and twitter and almost everywhere as well.

Thank you with me. Thank you.