TWiT 1006: Underwater Alien Civilizations - Bluesky Growth, Tyson Vs. Paul, AI Granny
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It's time for twice this week in tech. Alex capture is here from the big technology podcast anio bo, from windows central in thomson, from the registered we're gona talk about aliens. Yes, we are the congressional testimony about the identified arial phenomenon. We'll also talk about microsoft was IT criminal that they offered the government one year of security services free.

Why did netflix stumble when IT streamed jack paul versus mike tyson? And will they stumble again come Christmas eve and the onion in a fight with elan musk over alex Jones info wars, who will win? I'll talk about all that and .

a lot more. Next on to IT podcasts you love from people .

you trust.

This is quiet.

This is to IT this weekend, episode one thousand six, recorded sunday in november seventeen s twenty twenty four, underwater alien civilizations.

It's time for twice this week to tech the show. We covered the latest tech news with the round table of a steam distinguished, good looking and mighty smart panel sts always love to get alex counter waits on from the big technology podcast.

Great to see you, alex.

You I always ask alex who is to for the show because you get the best guess you get in the guy who was the first neural link patient.

Yeah, I can't wait for that. I'm flying out to phoenix and a couple of weeks and I minister down milland arba, the first patient of nurlan key can control computers with his mind. So we're going to talk all about that and whether he wanted to merge .

with A I eventually. 哇哦， that be cool. awesome. Also here, Daniel rubino, editor in chief of windows central. Daniel, greatest for you.

I mean, Chris.

you got to always a pleasure and a frendon thomson from the registered at com.

Hi ann. Hey has a going .

our local brit. We had our braxy moment last a couple weeks ago. Now we're right altogether now.

Yeah yes, that that has yet to be determined .

all together. Now you asked for your blue sky handle up there. This seems to be the thing now is moving to blue sky with neck.

Times, of course, is on IT with kind of a sarky story. Have blue sky alternative ecs and faced because handling expensive growth IT hasn't all been easy. My guys at Wrights only say they've dealt with IT .

fantastically. I mean, I think so if you're dealing with a million new users a day, you know in terms of the the the difficulty of scaling, this is a classic use case. And in six months time, i'm going back to these people and saying, right, how did you handle IT? Because this is really quite something.

I mean, remember, the first five years of twitter, the fail well was more common than anything else.

right? exactly. yes. You know, it's like, yes, we've been up and down.

The service is gone out. Services, you stayed up for a while. But I think that dealing with adorably .

maybe jay grabbers experience at twitter helped. I mean, the blue sky was was funded by jack dorsey early on. He put up fifteen million dollars because he wanted to do a federated kind of version of twitter smart.

He was actually thinking ahead. I think he is no longer associated with blue sky. Blue sky has seemed to be a threads, is also grown considerably since exist .

to the right threats. I mean, it's the worst kind of matter you know, plant for it's instagram followers and an other madly chAllenged platform to put IT politely. I don't know how the rest of the crew found IT.

It's like tiktok and twitter how a baby I don't mind IT in some ways after .

bad one night .

stand my feet I go on to IT is literally just like happy stuff is .

just s your blue sky now .

yeah and so it's just like videos. It's tiktok video so like a week ago but just all like cats, a dog doing fun things so at least one growing through a little like just laughing and kind of enjoying a social network for once so that then it's not bad. Uh, there are a lot of people that I follow when vice first on IT.

So that does have that going for but do a great thing. And that, like the algorithm, is a very different network. And they stated purpose ply IT was gonna be a different network.

So this isn't the network for breaking news, right, or delay this stuff. In fact, the algorithm is hilariously like surface. You like information from my two days ago post now and that's kind of joke and theyve purposely downplayed news and politics, all that stuff which I respect.

They're trying to do something, not twitter. Two point now create their own network. So I think that's cool.

But i'm also buys here. I'm kind of against all social networks, so little big and know what's happened last two years. I just don't kind of care anymore, but I still use them. And I want blue sky as well. So it's .

interesting to watch blu sky because as a people move from twitter to blue sky, IT started to look more and more like twitter, which is both good and pei guess.

But that's probably an illusion. And I don't think they want to pour the cold water on, but i'll just do IT. But blue sky reminds me of a clubhouse, and we all remember in the middle of pandemic, people ran to clubhouse.

IT was the place where all the interesting people were, and people put a ton of effort into IT. And this is what happens in the beginning of every new social network is there is a Spike activity as people try to be super active to grab as many followers as they can. And then only then after a couple months, they decide whether it's worthwhile or whether they go back to the standard platforms.

And clubhouse people have millions of followers. They don't log on anymore because the activity is just not there anymore. And that's because after most of the middle of clubs, you know, they scratch hed in claude and they saw doesn't get them very much, they left. And I just get the sense of this gone to happen to blue sky as well, and it's certainly gonna happen to threads because what you're seeing is this enthusiasm is a lot of users that have just not found a place on twitter anymore and there's energy.

But I think but most users on threads and most users on blue sky are going to find is that is just not the mass network that they use that were used to in in with when I was coming to twitter and x and I don't think there is onna be worth for most people. And then you go to users and users are going to say OK, well, we're not finding as good information. We're having less of these influencers posting on these networks that we did on x and they're gonna leave.

So this is what happens with these social networks. There's a Spike of activity in the beginning and then they tend to go in a death spiral. And I think that's deffand going to happen. A blue sky and metal will prop up threads into this boring kind of benie social that works like IT is. IT seems like it's just a place for people to complain about threads, at least that with my feet is and IT will IT will be this sort of example social network that will Operate along side the two of them. But I twitter x is not yeah with x our twitter is not going .

x actually I don't sorry, know the .

twitter I know .

I call twitter all the time. Also.

if people call IT x now, but they still call a post tweet, the tweet has not gone away. You're tweet on expert confusing. But ultimately IT has the massive unusable and IT has the influential users.

And when you wanted know what's going on in your life, you go there. And I had a brunch. And royo, who comes on big technology podcast with me on fridays, he said, is something really interesting this past week where there was the top of a building that went on fire in manhattan.

He's not looking yeah exactly not looking at threads. He's not looking at blue sky fort. He knows the place where he's going to find information for IT is going to be x and mark Robert said that x was or when I was twitter IT was a they drove a clown car into a gold mine.

And what he's saying is basically they built the experience. There was a lot of brains behind IT, and he just became the internet standard for people. And that's what IT is, is an internet standard.

It's changed a little bit, I think, degrade IT under mosque to an extent. But ultimately, x is x twitter, twitter, whatever you want to call IT. And it's going to be very, very hard to to but .

have you seen this sorry, please.

up to you with x that a the the issue is that fewer people are definite using IT, you know as running windows talk can tell you it's influence in terms of sharing articles is all but disappeared. But they're .

naturally they are degrading links there. So you might not be seeing the same traffic from links, but that's a platform decision they've made just as facebook made .

the same decision. We I see a lot of people say I I don't have any not on any of those one mess, but I see a lot of people saying that they get more engagement from blue sky personally get more engagement from blu sky than they do for max. Is that you think that that's because of something x is up to? alex? Well, look.

access more users and this is the thing like, no.

what i'm saying. Yes, bex, as more users and many these people have more followers than x, but they still get more engagement elsewhere. And I guess the implication is that a lot of the engagement on axis phony, it's bots.

It's not no, I don't think so. Here's sort of what the progression that a social network usually goes through, which is that IT has this fuel of blue sky, like blue sky has right now. And then so many more people come on and start posting, and then every single social network you hear the same complaint from, which is that organic reach has gone down.

And why has organic reach gone down? now? A lot of people say it's because the social networks to add the reach so they can put advertisers on.

And if you want to reach people, you have to advertise. But the truth is that the feet is making a decision of how to rank every post within the network. And as the network grows, it's going to get um A A uh much more difficult for content to be ring tie.

So your your views goes down. And IT doesn't mean that there's less people using IT. IT just means that like you have more competition in the feed. And that is of course, when power laws start to take over where you're going to have a handful of users that will get a tremendous amount of engagement and the rest will have to call for whatever left. And that's especially true in the case of ex, where eland us has rig the feed to give themselves more reach.

Yeah the engagement you're getting on ex is it's not purely algorithmic show.

We say the summer ys in is a polite term on on this in all social networks go through or up. Up until now, i've gone through the same cycle, rapid rise and then fall away. Had friends are without myspace.

We've got facebook who had got to scale. The question is whether blue scope can do that? I don't know. It's still working progress.

I think there's also the question of do we even need because .

I was like doesn't need to replace twitter, right? Like the way these networks are going, as far as I can tell, federation. And I think this is a Better system.

You know there is open vibe now that APP that connects to master on threads. And blue sky all at once. So you get one single feed and you can cross post to all three at the same time.

Like this might actually be sort of the future, and that might exclude a lot of so Normal people that used to go on to these networks because there are barriers mastered on is definitely tRicky to get onto these guys. Easier thread is the easier, I would say. But you know this maybe kind of the way things are going.

I think that's actually fine. I don't really use actually, possibly because my own personal account and the people I follow don't post anymore when I do post my engagement as follow, so there is no real reason to follow. As far as breaking news, dredge reports to work just fine for most things.

And now I must miss the memo. When did we right the place to go on fire .

during the election? And yes, some the funniest front page stuff here. He was trolling trumps so hard. Uh but like I showed that most like breaking news from that and I was was fine. Like I don't know.

Like I get my breaking news from yahoo news, google news, like yeah sources .

and I .

do for for tech news right?

So so am I the only one here that gets their news from max.

I think so. Yes, that's what you're saying. Yeah.

I do. And I think that one thing that we should you go to.

so do you go to access every every hour, every five hours.

every night, every hour. But i'm on probably to health ale on a time and you specifically .

to see what's going on on you.

exactly. I think it's really good to follow. Breaking news, sorry.

I can. Terms like went news, like national news.

Local news is a test company. Where did you go last night to find out who won the test? J pol, five.

I managed to watch that.

I did. I stayed up to past midnight watching this. But but I just want to make a one point. The thing about twitter is that IT has a sense of urgency. And because there is news there, you can follow the news there.

And so IT doesn't follow the pattern of most social networks like twitter should be dead if you think about the management, but it's remains relevant the same way the new york times remains relevant because IT has the urgency of breaking news. And just to go full circle with your your thought about blue kin, that's why i'm barrah on IT is because I just won't have the urgency unless the news APP raus moves there. I just don't seat up.

I think think one of the trigger ing events of this past week was the guardian announcing .

is no longer to post, oh my god, yes, sorry, by the ones the guardian was like. We're going to still have our reporters on twitter. We want are you to share our reporting on twitter? Is just that the official account is not going to be on twitter.

So think IT helped people.

Thirty, count one. And there's a lot of like sub guardian things, but they said their reporters can post. Not that they are required to post.

They're just that they're not forbidding the reporters from posting. If they want to. I'll say I use that there's a cool tool up there now um that bridges twitter to blue sky.

So what he does is that looks at who you you're following and match. Is that a blue sky one click? Do IT all every major news institution I follow on twitter is now on blue sky.

yes. So whether an affair attack, it's really cool. A blue sky is the custom feeds that you can do.

So I have one just called tech. And if I click that feed, it's literally just a stream like an access speed of just tech news. Real time as IT happening.

There's also like regular news there. Is there? The default view course is chron logical, which is what everybody wants. Yes, exactly.

Isn't that funny? People don't want the algorithmic feed. No.

no, actually.

Except they say that, except that what gets the sticky st is the algorithm feed right there .

is why this company a new real preference. And everybody's revealed .

preference is to .

be .

an algorithmic feet, right, as I you know, as a good news. But IT used to be when I was just A A firestorm of data came out in real time at the moment. It's so algorithm ally twisted that yeah you know, if i'm writing a new story, i'll check out what people are saying on twitter. I would not necessarily believe IT entirely because the whole thing is so for the both exactly exactly. But I don't know blue guy could become that IT all depends whether or not they catch the ball or they fumble IT.

Yeah and i'll just say i'm not saying this as uh, somebody making the case for x or a fan of x. I'm just saying there's real utility there. And as a sort of psychology user, a lot of what I do is on lists.

So I have list of different reporters for different topics. And then finally, the thing that really keeps me back there, and leo, I think you point to IT, is sports. Like every sports reporter, every sports publication is on twitter. I'm kind of a nut following sports. And so if I want to get up the information analysis of how teams are doing, that's what i'm going to find IT.

So IT seems like the consensus is yeah we do kind of need something like twitter ah and your contention, alex, and I think you're write, I think we forget this kind of you the sudden burst of interest isn't going to last that people you get tired of IT. It's kind of like the gardener hypes cycle where you get really excited .

that I get one more pressure ies about the bloody gotta magic quant.

Which one are you in the the says.

I don't care how much money you stopping about about IT.

I think they go on my span bucket and I don't think I ever see that right. Well, you know, I mean, it's not a huge story. The truth is most of the world couldn't care less. Isn't spending the amount of time we are spending thinking about blue sky versus threads versus but in are a little circle of of tech journalist is there was a lot of conversation this week about blue sky .

exploding knowing at seventeen million now or eighty million.

which is yeah the group .

is impressive because of you know the percentage change, but obviously IT towards you know everything else out there.

It's it's so far behind the important for a site like this, right? The network effect is huge.

It's the whole certain extent, but will say that like less in communities are where people talking about and join themselves, right? And so IT doesn't this is always, I always bring this up with the problem of capital of this idea, like whatever like network of product create has to have infinite growth to be successful. We're typically that's not possible for a lot of things.

And because of that, we get into this idea that IT needs to be like one dominant social network. We're clearly, I think we are going to this world where is very broken up and divided. And that might be OK think because you back in the days, I tell the internet was and a lot of people enjoy IT.

I mean, were all and after to remember the internet when I first came out, there were not a lot of people on IT, but I was still cool. And blue guy has that feeling, which is why I think a lot of people are positive about IT. But you know, IT has a lot of possibility that twitter doesn't have, like I said, what the custom feed has, the start packs, which are really kind call. We have went for windows central. It's just a if you click the link, IT shows you all the authors on windows .

central like you yeah .

we done the same for the register as well. I mean, it's but I mean, this is the way the internet goes. I mean, red, I only got started because dig drop ball. No, I mean.

可以。

It's it's just same with facebook. My face count doll. I don't know it's it's going to be interesting, but I think you're write. The federated future is the way to go. And instead, we are going to have a third party plot, which will allow you to cover all of these things rather than just going to twitter or just getting to facebook.

And as ironic that you would think elon mosque would have actually been for that model, which is like argues against centralized .

power control, right?

It's like that's the way IT should be. Instead, he is arguing for the the centralized system where one person patrols the algorithm. And like, remember, the whole idea is like our twitters left wing is bias and needs to be equal baLanced. And now the guy is like on to supporting the president and it's just like, it's just like all over the place, right? So IT is a weird situation, but I don't know what's what what happens. I don't think blue y needs to be no IT doesn't the past whether to be successful IT could still be the only thing where people on the laugh, nerds, a media people hang out and talk and that might be just enough for a lot of people know yeah.

could be a discord server, right? The question is, is blue guy going na be a discord server or social network with the size to replace x because everybody has complaints about x and I think it's I think you're right Daniel's program up as a discord server, but you actually will be Better than clubhouse, which I compared IT too earlier. So yeah, if does that, then I guess that some sort of win, but just not what the founders of blue sky intended. A K jack dorsey, well.

I will always be thankful, jack, he gave us one of the smart est headlands in regis history. But, but still, okay.

you can't drop. IT, no, you can't stop there. What was the headline?

What is when dick left twitter?

Okay, that's fine. I get IT.

yeah, no. So IT was big. Dick pulls out jacks in the hot seat. But no.

you god, you guys.

well.

so did you watch the so you watch the fight, alex, because your sports fan, Daniel, because I spectacular IT is I mean, that's not sport is IT when you get what is the twenty something fighting a sixty or late .

fifty and fifty .

eight yeah that doesn't seem quite fair.

Do you think .

that everybody, including netflix, where was really hoping the mike tyson, which is when jake paul knocked about the first around everybody? I was.

I want, I want to say beaten like a reda step child. I mean, I was just kind of like then I logged onto the next netflix feed and all I got was my tysons us. And that was the site, right? OK.

I just that was IT frozen there or well.

now he was so of chat at one point, which I he walked .

IT away from an interview, and I was just as very as I come that I barely watched IT. So just like a lot of us just like barely watch this thing. And that's like we all saw that. Well.

apparently netflix had a lot of technical issues, but that's probably because what do they say? Sixty five million people at one point.

which that makes IT the biggest, a event outside of the super bowl, the olympics and maybe some cricket. So IT was massive hash.

take netflix, netflix crash and hashtag unwatchable. Where to the trending topics? A A litter mommy.

that episode of silicon valley, where they are trying to stream the ultimate ghu championship and IT just stream falls over IT was just.

I think, was an image.

my head of govern bells. And show me this is, I can say .

that otherwise, spoilers, if you haven't seen IT, we are going to tell you who won. I guess you've learned now there wasn't a KO in the first round. That's all. You know, I did not watch IT. We saw one of the undercard fights.

And IT was so brutal. You see, female.

apparently that was even worse. No.

I saw the first god that was I mean, I also agree boxing is brutal, but IT is I am trying to find the words to talk about how unbelievable that woman's fight was because they landed and through so many punches yeah and the fact that they were able to get through the match was just incredible. I ve never seen any, any boxing like that, male or female. IT was an amazing fight.

This is why women sports are really something to watch. I mean, when he comes to football, except, for example, you know, they they play harder than the blocks and I played women hockey teams, and I still have a little broken bone on my left, left down from that. But you know, I mean, it's it's an interesting area of where sport is going. It's becoming much more diverse. This feel like I was IT .

was a money grab on nefer x this part I was like, peer spectacle, right? No, of course.

Yes, that was sport.

was at sport, really.

The first was were sport. But the ties and paul match was spectacle. That was, you know what that is a win for netflix created MC T V. This was their first big scale live production.

And even though the streaming didn't work, it's all anybody can talk about, right? And it's like IT takes a certain amount of brilliance to put jake, paul and mike tyson in a ring together, put them at geria world in dallas, and he puts some really good fights in the undercard and stream IT life. And they did IT.

And I think this is netflix has to make this this vivid to life. They're doing this. They're doing the they're doing some one, I believed, and they're also doing two nfl games on Christmas, a good nfl games. And this is the way they are going to grow.

Why is this necessary for them to grow? I think that kind of if you read, however, did you talk to.

i'm sorry, that's really a hastings hoff's coming on a january o but I think they have to grow because they are saturating. They had a moment where they had negative subscribe described, uh, contraction and then they started growing again because they crack down on passwords and created this idea. But ultimately, what basically all the engagement data shows, they're not really growing the pie.

They're just making money off the pie. So they are effectively doing the fact of rate increases by password sheering and all this stuff and not allow you to turn. So they are maxing out.

And the only way to create new audiences is to have MC TV live events. And no matter what you say about IT, and I watched and I was disappointment with the political fight, IT was a spectacle. And this is type of thing that only, I don't know if only netflix can do, but network is certainly the only streamer that can do IT. And is is.

is in sport is is one of the innards of streaming, which is really at the moment.

And I has to be alive.

You can't do sport. I don't know. I know, I know. I mean, I mean, you know, you mentioned with formula juan alex, now netflix has grown formula wa in the us. Yeah, with you would drive enormously.

When I came over here in two thousand eight seven from this o former one club was a couple of dozens of D K. People sitting in the park sunday. Nine I am watching a room.

Last time I tried to go to actual live race in in the city, IT was rammed. Two entire hubs rammed out. Netflix has enormous power on this, and sports are one of the few areas on streaming which are actively growing. So I think wise move.

yes. And they did in the run up to the test and polished. They did like a documentary, three part documentary, following the two fighters, also following the women fighters.

And I caught like one half episode before the happened, and they were really well done. They brought mike tyson back to Brown's villain, broin. And you see him like taking a shirt off on the street and chAllenging old guys to fights. And that was, that was real. I know IT was compelling television.

absolutely not to survive. Compile television. I make stuff. But at the same time, it's brought a lot of new fans into the sport and has made netflix of awful lot of money.

Presumably netflix is doing these also to learn. I mean, they started. They're alive.

Chris rock comedy spending was alive and then they did the tomb. Brady rose. They've been slowly, incrementally trying live streaming to see where the flaws are.

But this was obviously the biggest test of their of their physical plant. And they the test they failed. But presumably they're learn from .

that and and solve IT. I A lot of engineers are going be going over the data and saying, right, where do we fall over here? Where do we fall over there? What can we do you?

There is a risk, of course, if IT really looks terrible, it's unwatchable. People may not come back, right? And just a couple of weeks, what's the next thing .

they're ongoing to do Christmas, Christmas with the end. And by the way, we are an incredibly forgiving species and there's something that everybody's watching. We're going to want to watch IT. And I do think .

they bought the monday night raw from W W. E. So that's going to be alive every monday night. Yeah, they'll solve this. You're and I think you're right.

The point that E N made is spotted on which is that 是不是 test？ I don't think they realized how big IT was gonna IT just sort of snowboard, but they will learn from this and they will have to get the nfl right in december. And if they don't get like it's one thing to buffer r on the undercard of a gall my fight, it's another thing to buffer in the fourth quarter when the stealer are driving down down that yeah take delete yeah cannot buffer. Then I remember you are the only show in town. Nobody else to can have those games.

You know I was really think I thought the nf felt might have stumbled when they let amazon have the exclusive rights to thursday night football. That has proven to be a huge success, is now beating monday night football .

on the networks. The production value on amazon's there is the .

night broadcast is amazing.

I yes, they have great anounced great day post me. But IT also IT feels to me like they're using Better cameras. I don't know what they are. You actually Better work. When we were Green bay .

for their game, alex linsey got me into the amazon truck. They spent phenomenal amount money to have the best technology capable of four k. They don't stream and fork yet, but but the capability is there.

And they're doing graphics packages that are far ahead of what the networks you've done. They amazon clearly saw this is an important and they were right. I thought, man, you guys are crazy, threw on all that money into this. Our nfl fans going to going to subscribe amazon prime just so they can watch thirsted night football. Yeah, turns that they are a.

well, youtube is really heavily pushing the sports angle as well. You know, I think this is something that they recognize is something that people will pay for. They they want IT on sport and that something the news sorted, he wants to cash in on this market. Yeah by the way.

the dirty secret about there's denied footballers. You don't really need to be an amazon prime subscriber to watch. I'm not a prime member and amazon and .

place interesting, although i'm still not sold on american football is armored rugby nothing more or nothing less?

Then got for the armor? That's all I can say. Yeah, it's interesting because they also show what IT tells me is that over the top broadcasting is here, like this is IT for cable television, for broadcast television if people are completely willing to watch a streaming version of an an fell football game or eight IT was sixty five million watching that fight the other the night yeah that that shows you it's it's made IT.

It's in, it's done. Well, I were a cable company. I would started to I be worried right now. They have been worried for a while. I think.

I mean, hasn't this just been like a terrible two weeks for a broadcast news where you look at the election and the primacy of podcasts and now use the netflix pull, you know, at a thin air, a spectacle that rivals .

super able? The writing is on the wall, that's for sure. Hi.

i've got a quite question.

This is indo. Indo is always our technical CER another booker, the guy does IT all hello benee. So so my question .

is like I think the one issue I see with streaming services doing sports is that not everybody is synchronised watching IT, which is not true .

with a they are alive but you .

know everybody's little because .

when i'm down stairs in the gym and lisa watching upstairs. So is that .

a problem? I can feel like that's a little bit of problem .

that's interesting.

You got on, do not disturb. I mean, yeah, I was washing in football a day and texting with a friend. And I was lake, I was watching on with my bunny er antenna and he was watching on streaming. And I was like twenty seconds ahead. And I really made a mad because I was exact.

So talking about is with one I M and that's always .

a the night for us in america.

right? Well, I mean, if well, OK, we've just had me we've got last focus coming up and we've know we ve just had races in our times, but I will watch that and beyond the four talking to people and they like they're like, you know, that corner was passed ten seconds ago. In on this is important .

words really .

gonna be an issue. Pani do is betting sports bedding because the change bets come in. And if not.

everybodys on the same new push sports and think it's thanks to that british bookie company is to do real time betting props in the middle of games is you're going to make that field goal.

But we've seen this with flash trading in the stock exchange. And I think we going to see the same thing in sense of sport, sports betting, if you can get that millisecond advantage, could clean up.

That was the premise of Michael Lewis flash boys. That was actually fascinating because they were trying to build a fiber optic network from the chicago board of trade in the new york stock exchange. And IT was extremely important. That would be straight that that would be the shortest possible line because nano sex could make the difference between getting that trade ahead of time or not.

which is why you got shipping containers parked next to know the nearest exchanges with the whole bunch of service. And they made enormous amount of money. But yeah, the Michael book is really worth a read.

Yeah, flash boys, yeah. Is that what IT is? Flash boys, I think IT is.

I think so. Yeah, yeah.

Let's take a little break. We've got some flashy boys here right now. We've got to the eighteen is here in thomson from the registered that com. Always a pleasure to have you in your bookshelf which looks like like at any moment it's onta taught her and fall .

into your head but and I live an earthquakes one so I know .

just i'm nervous for you that's all I can say. I'm nervous for you also with a Daniel rubino for massachusets editor in chief of windows central. Great to have you, Daniel.

And where are you, alex? I forgot new york. In new york, we we got the content. The left in the right coast covered.

Alex canter is hosted the big technology podcast and newsletter big technology thought com great of all three of you. I am in the northern cela, in the wine country, northern california and and burke would not let me build this addix studio. He said that bookshop was gonna kill you. Until we had IT like it's bolted onto the wall, it's more it's more solid than the wall itself. So but on the other hand, the lights could kill me so I don't .

know and patalolo, i'm you said sorry, pattern is the button and chicken the chicken .

and egg of the world? Thank yes. But IT IT is the beginning of the wine country of cinema, cinema county.

So I count the wine as well. alright. Ladies gentlemen, our show today brought you by express VPN is kind of fun.

We are talking about netflix because express VPN is one of the ways I watched netflix all around the world. That gives me geographical of flexibility, shall we say? There are three reasons you do use of VPN.

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I recommend the only one I use, express VPN dc on flash to IT. Let's talk a little bit cyber security. Actually, this, this is an interesting microsoft story for you, Daniel, from prop. ica.

Do you see this story? Apparently, president biden, in summer twenty twenty one, you you may actually remembers this, brought ceos of the big tech companies to the White house. This is after a series of cyber tax linked to russia, china in iran had left the government feelings as republica.

The administration asked microsoft CEO such an adela amazon ceos, apple, google and others to make concrete commitments to bolster us defense. Microsoft said, oh yeah, we got some for you. Such an adella pledge to give the government a one hundred fifty million dollars in technical services to help up greatest digital security. Good idea, right? A big win for the vine administration and a win for microsoft, a major win .

for microsoft. Well.

IT turns out maybe yes, because IT was a limited time deal the White house offer. This is for public writing, as IT was known inside microsoft dispatch microsoft consultants across the federal government to install the compass cybersecurity security products, which were free for a limited time.

Once the consultants install the upgrades, federal customers would be effectively locked in because shifting to a competitor after the free trial would be cumbersome and costly. At that point, the customer would have little choice but to pay the higher subscription fees. Republica quotes a couple of former microsoft employee sales leaders involved in the effort, they said, is like a drug dealer hooking users with free samples.

And he thoughts about that.

Daniel, this is your beat.

I mean, business is going to a business, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I think we are going to go back to do a trial where or you anytime we're going to try, you know a new service for thirty days, but the auto renews after thirty days.

right? right? We do. We have two weeks free for club to IT after what you pay. I mean, it's only seven. No, I not.

I mean, i'm not, microsoft said, quote, the company's so gold during this period was to support and urgent request by the ministration to enhance cure the security posture. Federal agencies were continuously being targeted by sophisticated nation state threat actors. This is from the Steve fail, who is a security leader for microsoft federal business. There was no guarantee the agencies would purchase these licenses, and they were free to engage with other vendors to support their security needs.

Yeah, rip out and replace. So it's it's an easy thing to do.

The White house disputed that characterization, including a tim wu who was a former presidential adviser, who told republican he discuss the offer with the company a short formal chat part of the summer but did not sign off, he said. If they're saying that signed off, they're misrepresenting what happened on the phone call, your business going to business. But on the other hand, it's a little unseemly for the business. Say, say we're helping america. We're helping the federal government with this lovely free trial offer is a little disingenuous.

Oh yeah, no. I mean, I guess I should tell the government for .

once to read the fine friend.

Yes, you know, like this is one of those things where it's i'm not got justified. You like what mark did, but this is just common practice for anything. If you are business securing government contracts is the gold mine, right? That's why right knows you know into that defense industry and everything is it's a lot of money in asia makes the tone of cash for microsoft continually grows as one of their best business, uh, divisions.

So IT doesn't surprise me. It's a unfortunate that this happens, but it's also interesting network actually going to kind of transparently on this. Where's a lot of other contracts? I would say that .

party happened actually yeah yeah.

With the defense department especially, we don't get any kind of reporting of this or that same kind of coverage because this is microsoft. But when you look at how like jets are made and so like that, it's you know, it's way more severe. I mean, the dollars, you know, so it's like this is a thing and he maybe dog will solve this. But think .

with the department .

of governmental efficiency.

yes.

really is ask even is asking for higher q individuals come on work at our weeks on doge for no pay.

You know, like you like you to have .

a blue check yeah yeah to use his .

this is oracles entire .

business model when they comes to get on track. You know it's like get them locked in, I mean, palettes ing. Same thing as well. yeah.

I don't blame microsoft for this, but they really managed to turn, you know, a tragedy, which was, you know, bare accounts had lead government data to all kinds of foreign actors. And they were like, OK well, will invest hundred and fifty million and we're going to get billions in return. I don't know who the business, he also came up with that, but I imagine they are getting fairly healthy rise.

I also think that this republican ticket is pretty responsible, at least the framing of IT. And they say by the microsoft to raise the bar on cyber security, he may have ped create an illegal monopoly. And so I was like, our outlets read the story and see how many times that many monopoly IT mentions IT only once where the issue here is procurement.

And i'm not defending microsoft. I do think this is like typical sketchy tex tex cells. But there's a they cite this professor of uh who says that um what microsoft did is exclusive conduct opening the door for an illegal monopoly. I no way that this is a monopolistic a behavior is never hold up in court. In a professor who is calling IT an illegal manape should have known Better than to do IT.

So I guess the real question is how hard IT would be to once the one year free trial war off? To switch to something else, you can switch. I mean.

it's up to the competitors. You are right, like the way that governments go through this as they do in ARP process or request for proposals and then every company that wants the government money. And there's a lot of them they bid.

And so if you let's say you're amazon, right, are you going to tell me that you cannot outbid microsoft like it's the company that wants IT most is the one that gets IT. And that's why microsoft got IT because I wanted at the most. And so I mean, won't be cumbersome.

yes. I mean, switching from gmail to hay is cumbersome. Switching from twitter to blue sky is cumbersome. But I just think that we can have such low expectations of our government that when something is difficult and cover some for them, that theyll never do IT, and that therefore, the company that sold them the soft in the first place is a monopoly just doesn't stand up to me just on the basis of facts. I mean.

we've seen this before with A I contract, for example, where know the government was saying, basically when IT comes to the matter, you want a single source provider in the rest of IT, which was a dumb idea from a start, but you know and microsoft wanted, you know, governments like easy get IT in place. Who cares if we have to pay a more for IT later on because the taxpayers to pay. So I don't know the cost of shifting your system is such that I know. I think microsoft played a blinder on this .

one microsoft dinner for a public that was very aware, having been through a little fight with the department of justice a few years earlier, of the antitrust issues, tim woods, that microsoft layers were overly paranoid about antitrust concerns.

Sounds like microsoft.

yeah, I made IT clear, says there was no ability in the White house to sign off on any trust. We can't say you're indemnified for any anti trust actions on basis of this. He wants that.

I'm not smart ough to say all yeah, that's fine with me. I'm not crazy. So there was an awareness anyway on the part of microsoft that this this offer could be seen as kind of a little bit. See, they didn't want to be accused of any trust and they wanted tim wu to say, no, no, you're okay.

Micro soft has been playing this game for evidence is invested in apple just to keep you know an alternative Operating system going. The very, very aware of this and they should be particularly after the ie case.

the sales teams, according to our public a, they new customers who accepted the White house of are unlikely to undo the intensive work of installing the upgrades. Maybe, Daniel, you can explain this Better, that there are different tears of security for microsoft products. Most of the federal government was g three.

At this point, microsoft said, will upgrade you to g five free for the first year. But moving back to g three seemed unlikely. They knew that once they were in to g five, that they would continue to pay for IT. That what I just said make any sense at all, Daniel?

yeah. No, I think it's anyone has that what I did before, even that knows all scale, knows how difficult IT can be to all out something.

So if you have moved to g five, this is by the wake in the wake of the solar. And so I an attack. If you move to g five, you're protected for year and then you say, okay, good job done and you go back to g three and suddenly you're attacked again.

That is a reflect badly on microsoft that reflects badly on the organization. So there's also some pressure not to downgrade your security, even though it's not going to cost you money. Sales people pitched the White house offer again, republican head sources in the microsoft sales organization for the sales paper pitched the White house offer us the easy button.

Our argument was we have this whole sweet of goodness, said a former microsoft employee, work to the department defense. You should up great because it'll take care of everything rather than have a bunch of vendors will do one of the twenty things at the g five can do yeah I mean, this is probably a nonstory. It's more about government procurement. Microsoft did what any company would do, say, hey, first you're free, go give you a shot.

That's really the question, right? Like if any other company got in this position and have the same thing, would they behaved any differently?

right? no.

And nausea. Government procurement assume that companies are somehow no longer in IT for .

the money and part, they say. Some lawmakers like rap, chin line, eva road island, accused the company of unfairly up charging customers for what they consider to be basic security. Quote, is this a profit center for microsoft on port? He ask red Smith during the hearing.

Smith replied, um and putting me up in there. We are a four profit company. Everything that we do is designed to generate a return in our philanthropy c work. yeah. Like.

is there we pain for this? Yes, congressman is called buying things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if anything, maybe we should congress should look at the procured process more than, I mean, microsoft just doing, as you say, what microsoft does. Well.

we have seen claims, particularly judy, where you know, government comment officers will offer jobs at tech firms after they retire. And this revolving door is just a recipe for disaster .

that should be illegal, but not about companies that make government a good offer and government taking the offer that day deems to be the best. Microsoft.

by the way, three years later, offered the nation's hospitals A G five level upgrade at no cost for the first year.

Yeah, the first one's breath, sorry.

but like, do the procuring people in these government offices and in these hospitals not look at the pricing for year two? Can they not do like an analysis of what is because if you're not if you're legitimately not looking at year two Prices, uh, then what are you doing in your job?

Yeah, you suck at your job. No, me is that you got a look at long term cause .

but also you have to ask your people, your I T people, okay, we're going to be g for you. How hard is IT to go back to g three? Or are we stuck? Are we going to have to be g five forever after .

especially when you sign up for this, you are agreed that you're going on with the assumption for the first year?

Yeah yeah.

you got like right. Well, going hopefully locked this and for a couple years because it's doing the thing we're told IT to post to do. So it's like it's weird not to like plan this out of the assumption that you're going to get charged. You know I don't know that that works.

So um I was say the hospital .

thing now is really important. I used to work at a hospital. My her partner, few works at a hospital and they actually be scared and nerves about the security systems in the computer system out there.

awful. There are so many years behind they start the I T departments. It's just everything is just we see how hospital is run this because the four profit ones um you know it's it's a horrible, horrible thing is going out.

right? And that's why when you're ever feeling sick, you should just type your symptoms into judge. Yeah OK.

So do you go? Cancer is the same problem with the british health. Some of the computers are still running X, P, like the pink Marks off through the nose for election support and in microphases es as well.

But yeah, you're right. The basic infrastructure of government is running on software that should not be running. This needs to get up graded and yet to go to pay for IT. But yeah, look at the year two, year three, year five costs.

Is there a petition going around in the eu to force the eu to use linux?

Um yes, yeah, that's been a movement around that. In particular, the german government was very big on open source. They've now shifted slightly back to commercial software.

But the still large open source, I pushed that way. But okay, i'm from britain on bricks island. So you know know know .

get affected by that.

unfortunately. no. But I mean.

this is a position leaving apple and google support the future of our freedoms. Sign the petition for an eu linux Operating system in public administrations.

This could be the of lyrics and government.

Hard would that be? I mean, yeah, I wonder, is IT shouldn't the government Foster support? Open source?

I don't know how much I know. Open source is just that buzz phrase that people like to say that automatically sounds good. It's like cancer free like right? And I feel I get out of sources.

But from what I know, I was working in hospital, um we was working in a sleep center. And one of the reasons we didn't upgrade our Operating system was not because microsoft was close source or because linux was unavailable. Les, because the programmes reran to do to sleep diagnostic is custom software by a tiny little firm.

And if we want to upgrade the Operating system, they were going to have to do a lot of testing and a lot more validation for the software that go through a whole process and caused sort of commotion. So they would rather just keep the Operating system with your customer software running and just be as is instead investing to guide IT all up to date. And that's what you see with a lot of hospice, is just as custom software that is just difficult, sometimes means the companies may not even be around anymore .

or IT could take every company, this not just the public sector, every company has this. We have this problem. We added a Young guy and here who wrote us of a sales system and he left. You know, he was was just kind of lost in intern left after a year. And we said, what are you going to support the system?

He wrote, you know, exactly.

And so and you know, we're running we've been running on IT ever since has a few little glitters. He wasn't a professional developer. Two people can't use IT at the same time where the whole thing crashes.

We've had to hire a developed to come in and try to figure out how to make IT work, but that companies do that. We did that. I was a sensible thing at the time.

yes.

Well, though you seen the bilboes around something to go in the bay area about paying for open source over the last couple of weeks, really. Yeah, there's a movement going, I hope, bunch of startups that basically trying to get companies to commit to paying a couple of grand a year to fund an open source project. And this is actually really .

crucial because they use IT for free and they don't.

Yeah yeah. But I mean, we did a story, you of the the great X K C D cartoon about how the tire Operations stem was run by wang o. From amazon.

Yeah, we found him. The the G P G P R S S. Protocol is run by one guy in over. And he supports the entirely on his own. And these people need funding, otherwise you go to commercial and that because you know you're actually you gona get support. And that's the central thing that because of the open source has to cross.

This is the the cartoon in a modern digital infrastructure, which is a very complicated structure of bricks, all supported by one little thing to block at the bottom of project, some random person in the bracket. But thankless ly slim, I do that three is funny. But it's also actually really true in many, many.

K, yes, I mean, this, this is the kind of thing if you, if you gonna build a proper, if you gonna rely on open source, you've gotta fund the open source developers that keep IT running. And that having the industry hasn't found out a way to do that. Yeah, yeah.

Let's take a little break so we can fund this Operation. I'm in IT for the money. I admit that i'm like brad smith. Yeah, it's a profit deal here, but we are very happy to have a great panel in working with this year for no cost at all, right? I think alex can Daniel notting never did get paid for this. Daniel vo, editor in chief windows central alex canterwith z from the big technology podcast and of course, the wonderful ian Thompson, who was a reporter at the register, duck a happily, happily returning to his roots as a reporter, getting all right again.

It's the fun part. You know.

I I I believe that do you do do you end up doing a lot of investigative stuff like you dig for stories?

Oh yeah, no. I i've got i've got some major stuff coming, coming down. The one IT is one of the things that when you move away from medical, you've a lot more time to dig around. And it's weird how these things come off. I'm speaking some people at NASA well, NASA is still alive about some really interesting technology .

that developing. Do you want to give .

up like your signal handle or anything? Haven't gone handle, but my phone, twitter room, blue sky, OK people.

paris smart know from the information as this. Every once in her twitter show, SHE gives up her signal handle. And he also says, and don't use your workplace one to send me the tip. Yeah, that's another tip.

Also set self deleting messages. This is something that come up in the lawsuits over F, B, I, investigation time and time again, people think old signals and to end encrypted and IT is is the best message system out there. But if you don't send messages, delete and someone gets success to your phone.

game over like IT. Yeah, good. I am report that twenty four, I you know you and if you just go to your signal, it'll show your phone number than below .

IT IT will show you that, yeah, but I don't putting around, to be honest. If you find me.

they can find me. Okay, there you go. I like that. Make him work. Make IT work .

for IT stops spammers. I tried IT. I got a ahead of lot .

of spams oda regret just saying when .

I just well, maybe I mean.

to signal me and say, how would you pass .

this on the in bcs? The fundamentally signal is the one to trust. I don't trust what's up entirely. I don't trust lot other missing services at all. So yeah.

don't you email that is notoriously problematic for privacy?

Wow, I mean, email you as well. Leave a trail of crumbs all the way through the forest.

Yes, right. We take a little break. Mac, with more. You're watching this week in tech brought to you this week.

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This, of course, of paid advertisement fund rise that come slash twin. Thank you so much for supporting this week in tech. It's interesting. I think the consensus is, although it's kind maybe not really, really clear that the incoming trumpet administration will be a little less likely to go after any trust actions, ftc actions, linea will be gone and so forth.

But then there's also the issue of there are some big tech companies that president that does not like it's not a clear it's not a clear sale for anybody right now. For instance, the c fpb, the the the is that was a bureaux. Guess it's a the consumer financial protection bureau has taken place is steps to place google under federal supervision, which is an extraordinary move.

This is from the washington post that could subject the technology giant to the regular inspections and rigorous modern the government imposes on major banks. C fpb, of course, is is governing banking. IT wants direct oversight.

This is a major move. Google has resisted the final months of the by administration. I think some companies are hoping that maybe they can hold out until january twenty. Is on the other hand, if you're google, I don't think president like trump is a big fan. What what should google do at this point?

I can .

try be a little bit worried IT, just because mean, the thing with trump is, like he says a lot of stuff. And I get people you like believe in what he says, yes, but he also lies a lot and he says a lot of things that he never does. Uh and so I got I forest even of the tech talk thing right, which was .

he was so A T. Tiktok, according to the law passed by congress, has to january nineteen to divest the american subsidiary and get get that chinese government his hands out of a tiktok. January seventh is not an accident. Date is the day before inauguration.

yeah.

Congress knew that things might change on january twenty years.

And he said that I am never being on this podcast is .

one of the companies .

trying to get in.

tried to bite you and now .

it's like the reverse right now. It's like, go to talk great. And just like, but how you gonna connel that with china and this redick on china, I don't know, you know? So like he said publicly, like member with google, the search results, and he said he was favorite ing camera.

And as all less, they need to be investigated. But I don't know how much is actually going to matter. Do you get what these companies have also kind of rolled over lately? You know bezos to this, of course, of the washington .

post all tim cook, andy, Jesse and of course. So arpa, I all congratulated the president elect ork. Let's get going on innovation and ah and I have to think that the future for the c fpb .

is not bright under right right no everyone hates it's kind of .

I mean linea cn is out although .

events likes her.

the events .

like yes, he he does and that gates so matra .

yes yes thank and he's apparently .

also fun. So that's what's so .

interesting about this is is how unpredictable IT is now if i'm google, i'm thinking, well, at the very least, let's push you, let's appeal. Let's push this stuff up till the january twenties and and let's do everything we can to get on the good side of the new administration .

and not as google. It's also master watching post story. The C, F, P, B is also worked to finalize a broader other rules that could allow IT to impose supervision on others, including amazon, apple, paypal on vmu. All of these .

companies are kind of in quasi banking. Apple pay, google pay, a republican ministration .

is gone to want that much government involvement in private. That's just my guess.

IT also feels like, I don't know how much power elon musk is. Gonna have a dog is gna have a lot.

you think? Well.

he called has no first power?

No, but he's called .

the first body and he's gona be authorized by the .

first one is to defend these companies. Is he not depends .

which one he likes in which one he doesn't like. He doesn't like matter. For instance, I think he doesn't like meta truck, doesn't like meta. Meta has a lot of business that could be in by the government and a lot of so you know well.

they're all kissing up to him. Yeah and that's just a given. There's a great peace, I think, in the new york times about how tim have successfully tim cook has managed to this tim has managed relationship um with the president elect and we'll probably continue to actually it's a bloomberg. The story is from probably from mark german yeah I mean.

never forget the trump talking about jAiling mark zuck books you know not a few months ago. It's all about who sucks up the most. And of the moment we're into chronic capitalism territory.

Well, if you have the air of the president, you can do very well. If you have the air of mosque, gonna do very well. But i've got the feeling that must can trump er gonna fall out at some point and that's gonna really .

interesting to watch was the zc berga fence making the get little remix with a tea pain.

My book. Yes, i'm sorry .

when you hear mox ock berg talking about the sweat on.

My IT was just .

kind of really actually I played the clip .

not knowing what I said. I just heard IT and .

is more know .

how to translate I went, oh, i'm so sir.

I still haven't created I feel .

good yeah my show. We're not fans of the the low remix by za pain as an tea pain are called together.

I ve IT played IT.

and I did get a text message from the listener being like listening. You hated IT so much, and you played at the end and sound of good, quite Melody. So I don't want to end up getting the counter effect here, but wow, I don't know. I would not have made that song put IT that way yeah.

Absolutely for his wife, right? As a gift for brazil la. And then I think .

he filmed her in and put IT on instagram. All of this combined is is certainly IT must violate some federal .

status something where is going on your that he had commission.

Ed, yeah, I was happy. And then he was dull vehicles.

There's something we are going on.

How long before we as a nation tire of billionaires and their fly ables? We will we the great .

voted for just voted for one of them yeah with a massive endorsement by another one. And I think Peter, till me this point, they're not just billion's that you don't know these are like the ideal of billionaire. You think of billionaire, you think of elan and you think of trump and the nation. Just pretty clear he was like we're still on the billion or train. So I think .

as .

a general, still in all those, zuckerberg might be out if he keeps releasing songs.

What would you do right now if you were such an adela and arpanet him go.

you find the money to the causes that mega wants.

Not too late to do to have that.

I don't know, sorry.

how we bring to and .

being .

to bite, please Carry on.

I have to arbitrate now, unfortunately, Daniel ahead.

So say, I think I just think this is how it's it's going to work that like these companies can offer support. They can not be the trump one point of thing was yet a lot of companies kind of resisting fighting back. I think when they start to any money or they start supporting openly or even just not, uh, attacking.

I think is enough to treat, isn't enough to say, hey, congratulations, good job, let's get to .

work is certainly wouldn't .

hurt to start.

They all did IT and I think be good side .

beyon donating. I don't know donating will happen, but their companies were seen a sort of like a bastion of the resistance during the twenty sixteen era and have been a lot less political here since. And I think that, like I don't know, i'm not gna be prescriptive here.

It's going is a tough leadership choice that's above my pig red. But I think that what you're going to see from these leaders is um to be descriptive, they're going to crack down on internal chatter. And you saw that happened a lot in the first term.

And one of the interesting things that government points out in the story about tim cook and apple is that apple didn't have slack in twenty sixteen, and they have slack now, and people put the company on blast on slack for decisions that they don't agree with. Although it's sort of wild thinking that apple has slacked, like the most secretive company. Has this chat, uh group.

But anyway, may be that's why girl gets all these scooped. But I would say that I would not be surprised to see apples shut down slack. I would not be surprised to see more employees fired for speaking out. Um and it's going to be a very interesting baLance within these companies to sort of try to figure out how to manage the fact that, that every employee is that very much does not agree with trump and trump who is quite important to their future fortunes.

Yeah I mean, we saw this project maven google you know employees rebelled against IT and OK. Well, okay, they rebelled. As in they took an hour off during the lunch hour to protest outside the site. And at the same time, they did win.

Google and a bunch of other .

companies moved in and took over that business. And with the current you when you've got trump and the republicans controlling the presidency, congress and really the judicial system, then it's in company's best interest to play ball and they go to say donate. They're going to um what's a polite way to put this kissed the imperial ring and yeah they are gone to make money from IT.

That's the end goal. In fact, german points out that apple probably he wanted team to win because they've had problems with biden. They were hoping the joe biden would save the apple watch from the mass mos.

He he had the power to do so did not uh, he he was apple issued by the justice department. They're currently fighting in the envy trust case. It's interesting there isn't necessarily a lot of love for the by administration in apple. And now there is also a very complicated road here because apple obviously makes the vast majority of its products in china spot on.

Yeah, I mean, U. S. China relations are the most important thing for apple. Remember apples, twenty percent of apple's business comes from china. Large part of the supply chain comes from china.

And if apple thinks, okay, let's you know, we can have a similar run as we had a trump in twenty sixteen where he listens to what we need and give us the exemption from terrace so we can make the iphone, the imac, the apple watch and airports without terrace as they did in the first term. That's great. But the risk is, is always a liar. Risk with trump is that we do end up in some sort of trade war with china or worse. And that impacts apples ability to Operate.

And well, in fact, president truck ran on raising tarifa to china has the legal authority to do so with executive order, because china is an adversary y he says sixty percent tariff on goods imported from china, which would be sixty percent increase in expenses.

Yeah, we know if you're if you're united buyer at the moment or if you just looking to get your laptop get IT done now because if those terrors kick in, it's we're already hearing from a major IT buyers, which is like we're stocking up our inventory now because if he does go to trade war, we're looking at increasing cost.

Of course, apple has increased production. Foxconn got a plant india in brazil and there working there. Part of the reason they have such a presence in brazil is because the brazil has huge, terrifying on phones manufactured outside brazil.

I just got my my new apple mac mini, and I was main vietnam. I was surprised to see and let's not forget the mac pro, where which has always been made notin texes. And remember the the photo up of a president trump and tim cook in the Austin, texas factory showing off the mac probe made in amErica from parts almost exclusively from china.

Yeah, teves on them. So yeah.

unless there is .

gonna carve bouts yeah exactly.

I think I think this is gonna IT. It's like if you're a friend of the administration, you get a cub out. Uh, if you're note, then you're down with the dogs.

It's been really interesting though, how yet nam is really try to take on some of the manufacturing load from china. They don't have the ability to scale as yet. But I was speaking some White house folks and they are like, yeah, vietnam is the new china when IT comes to manufacturing.

interesting. The reason china is so important to apple and many other companies right now is the and this is tim cooks, you great creation. Is the supply the way the supply chain works within china? All these smaller manufacturer who feed fox on on the assembly, they're all nearby.

There is a natural synergy there that would disappear if you moved assembly somewhere else. And IT might not just be assembly, you might have to also get all those manufacturing little manufacturing entities to make their devices somewhere else as well. So so that .

like .

one of the ways that apple and love these companies can on the good side of administration is simply by giving them those pr wins, right? We know that they can.

yes, so they can get know .

apple and the truck ministration to, you know announce something publicly. We're opening your new factory in america. We're going be doing this. You know that makes trump worker that's how you get on his good side and next time out could maybe happen, you know. So I I think a lot these companies will be smart and that way um another analysis is will be of course, if the administration is like what the left says, which is going to like a fash, just one. This is gonna a very bad thing.

Well, it's also complicated because, well, I think trump likes to apple and likes apple a lot. Elon must does not he working relationship .

with them, he does. But he.

according to a girl and he shafted apples and willingness to buy tesla ten years ago, has complained about APP store commissions, and he has called the apple's business on unfair. No elan is like anybody else, you know, he's to be. It's going to be a transactional relationship, not a 也 that's pretty benign .

when he comes to elan。 And yeah, you remember that he did complain about them stop apple stopping to advertise on T E. Tim cook back in the same way that they were. But he's definitely able to do business with them.

Yeah well and that's another thing that's probably very good for x. We haven't seen yet, but I imagine advertisers going to suddenly discover that x is really a great place.

But oh yes, it's looking like the boy cot is building faster than a wet tissue. You know, did they coming back in because they recognize that he has the president here and this will be very useful to them quite how long that last will see. But yeah, there's an awful lot of caving going on. Yeah we're not talking about the one you with the submarine and the Peter guy.

It's going to be it's going to one thing is obviously be very interesting time and every one of these cees at this point must have a war room where they're trying to figure out what the heck to do yeah to make sure that they do well in the coming four years. But silicon valley is also way .

more plugged in with the trump administration that they were the first time around.

Well, because of the peel and elon musk and jack Evans .

and the all in podcast, guys like David sax is David thing yeah it's it's been .

beauty interesting this election saying how the tech industry has basically, if they can, well, we will spend millions on lobbying, but we're publicly non political and that changed significant in the selection.

Yeah.

I have a question. I have a quick question.

yes.

So if the companies like he is an upper management start cutting people off, firing people for .

political views.

Like do you think that leaves the door open for finally unionizing?

We've seen IT. I mean, we've seen certainly the journalism industry and they're been attempts in .

the tech industry. But warehouse.

I think the reason the google project made in boycott is because engineers, although small and number, are vital to these companies. And I think engineers at that after that said, you know, we've got a lot of power here, not we don't need to unionize. We've got a lot of power as long as we exert IT. And so that would be very interesting to see. I don't I don't think engineering talent is so politically motivated that they will do something that's bad for the company, for political for their own political interests.

And I will not forget that when they protested in twenty sixteen, those were in the years of plenty. And yes, I I admit that they all these companies have the highest market caps in the world and are much more valuable now than they were before. But there is a different philosophy that has hit them since twenty twenty two in the year of efficiency era. Now that year is over, but I do think there's been such wholesale cuts within the tech giants that there's a lot more paranoia than there ever was. Folks are much less willing to break up yeah.

these engineers, most of their compensation comes in the former stocks option. So IT is in there very much in their interest to make sure that the company continues to perform well.

I was going say, I mean, I am guessing, but i'm probably the only person on the on .

the panel has been a union member I haven for end i've been .

after for thirty .

or forty years .

you so wo I was most feed but blues yeah. And the first the matter .

is if you've got to set up. Union, that is a sign of fantastically bad management because i've been in those discussions. And if you have to go through all the pain in the backside stuff to actually get a union going, that's a sign that management has really .

I think that's things yeah, i'm a union guy and union supporters, but I think you're exactly right.

So I mean, I don't think it's going to work in the tech industry. I really don't there are .

they're going to end up voting their pocket book yeah.

but which is traditionally the way you civilizations have gone throughout the years. But yeah.

we'll even in in you with .

like a pretty substantial immigration. That's going to be that's going to be the big thing.

He starts supporting, he starts supporting google and apple engineers, then all bets are off. I don't know what's gonna happen at that point.

What I mean, i'm a legal immigrant and I have thought about, you know, becoming A U. S. Citizen just to cover my back IT doesn't mean that the I R S is going to audit my tax returns for the rest of my bloody life and i'm not keen on that.

But you know, it's and also a break my mum's heart. But you know, I mean, it's it's one of those things to take industry, realize on immigrants and in a good way and in a bad way. One of the things I agreed with trump on was cracking down on h one b because a lot of companies are hiring very low skill tech workers on h one b visas and using those to replace U.

S. workers. And that needs to be crack down on. But in terms of mass potations, that can be a disaster for this country.

All we can say, let's wait and see. I mean, I know, yeah, I don't think anybody knows this going to happen.

No, that's why we honestly .

don't any has any idea.

I mean, speak, you have not. What did you see the braking news? What the us, U K, france have allowed long range strikes into russia?

Yeah, yeah, that's really to happen. Yeah finally really held the line on that for a long time because that's kind of a war like move um IT sounds like these countries are hoping to win the war before january twenty years .

yeah and this is the last the last sort of go at IT before they have they decide that trump is in .

and they have to know they're going to have to basically give up lodge on the territory um to the east um because amErica is by father largest supplier of weapons to the ukraine.

I guess though that the american people would not support this move, that this is this is moved from a lame duck administration that would not have done this if before the election .

they didn't well, I mean, I don't .

think americans want to support a, however, just an honorable to ukraine people.

And I mean, ukraine was a massively corrupt institution from the start, but at the same time, IT allowed you to bleed out the russian army with no cost.

American life, russian invading suffering nations. You can have to draw line at some point.

I was.

But the same time, and i'll think americans feel that strongly about IT, what many americans mind, but not.

this is a very of one thousand nine hundred and thirty eight field about this. I was talking to my mom. No, I do the weekly phone call back to the U. K. Fox, europe gets IT when you've got to.

You remember those days.

my m, my mom was born in the set of before the second. He grew up in rationing. SHE didn't on till he was seventeen.

But no, but the message is clear. Putting in georgia in a and in ukraine is on the rise. And next up is the belt states.

And if he gets ukraine, we've got, you know, russian forces right up against nature territory. It's not looking good. And so they are fighting back against IT.

But if the U. S. Abandon is the fine. Yeah, ukraine gone. Taiwan is the really, really worrying one.

Yes, i'm sure people are watching closely to see what our commitment that our commitment to taiwan would probably be a lot more aggressive. I think I.

I wonder, you know, under the neuro gime, if if china didn't invade, I wanna just blocked IT, what would the U. S.

Do you?

And also you have north korea involved now yeah in russia and ukraine. So you end up having this like very clear division within the world of like russia, china, north korea and iran against the world. Baby, kind of a nerving IT.

Is that really? Why were your mama?

I would have sense of day show 是不是？ Let's take a break. I don't want to get too great.

That optimistic?

No, that, yes, exactly.

We're all zoom cut .

my attitude basically when we just have to wait, see, we increasingly not doing stories that are what might happen because we just don't know, just .

right smoothly .

know.

fun and worthwhile to speculate and I just.

you know, we have a little poor going and invite you to join us. How long before elon get thrown out of the administration?

once? The best idea I heard was time magazine making elon go of the year. And that would irritate from other devils. Trumps always .

want to be the man of the year. He that would really be all over, I think june first as my as the date i'm putting in there. But who knows you know, these guys seemed to really like each other.

I'll take out the over on that and I will you think .

he's gonna four years?

No, but he's you not in the administration. No, almost like he's .

going to .

be this sort of leader. I an CEO on wednesday on big technology podcast and I was like, how do you feel that your number one competitor is now the first buddy in the White house? So it's kind of weird.

you know, that is that is where because I remember when elan bott twitter that Jason cAllan is and David sex became eland's first buddies in that same exact sick optic tic kind of court gesture role and have them chatting.

Jason didn't kill himself with glory at that moment. But you know, it's all of those things. No.

but we did get his text message, elan, that he would on a grand day for him. And that, I think is .

worth everything I am watching .

with great interest. I wish I had some pop ground right now, thanks to having is so great to have all three of you here. Thank you.

Will continue on in the moment. Refers to word from our sponsor, one password. And one password has A, I think, a rtw ical question because I think you know the answer.

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Apple, by the way, just I don't know if this is an example of how you can expect apple to Operate in the new world, but they just removed the radio free europe APP, at the request of ross calm nod, saw the russian media regulator, and let's see the nearly removed arif I R L. APP is that of the russian service for radio free europe, which hosts the websites of its regional product, liberia realities in north thought realities. Apple had removed other r API apps prior to this, including their curious service in current time, which is the russian language TV digital network run by radio free europe. Rust come non sor says the russian service APP contains materials from an organization that whose activities in russia and declared undesirable. You can sell, download here, in fact, everywhere but russia.

Little rush has done this. I sorry, apple has been caving to russia on this quite some time. I did a story about this, uh last month they've pulled over sixty V P N apps uh from russian users um simply on the request of the russian government which makes me always slightly okay a slight right chuckle whenever you see apple advertising themselves in the us as yeah where privacy focused on it's all about your privacy of may not apply in china and russia.

They also removed or hit several russian language podcast today by independent journalists you know apple will say, well, we have to bey the laws of the countries we Operate in, and this is the law of russia.

Indeed they do. And that is, I think, what is saying is spotted on, which is that these companies may put this like we are a and evolve you entity face on in front of U. S.

Audiences and european audiences, but in the day you'll just do what ever a company tells them doing, like we've multiple times in this episode. Their job is to make money. Absolutely do what to is clear.

You got you. I mean, anybody think otherwise is not paying attention. That's really all you know. That's what the company is designed .

to do over that congressman being like. So are we being charged for this?

Yeah, I love that the brad Smith feels like i'm going to tell you the truth. So yet we're profit making an entity here go on bread for not kind of trying to VISA word his way out of that one. Well, I mean.

they they still publicly try wise a word out of IT. But when he comes to congressional arrand, I go through a lot of those that perfect honey about IT we to make money. It's say, I don't .

agree with this, Daniel, because you cover the but I feel like bread Smith always been pretty but straight shooter maybe to to the extreme do great.

He's he's a very good communicator and he's always he knows how P, R. Works and how to get ahead of the story. They did this pretty wealth. A, I pretty inside the the copilot from the vasas there.

Yeah, I feel like that that was one where he somebody was asleep at the switch.

Yeah, I also go with this gold. But yeah, I mean, he knows how washington works, so he knows is how to negotiate. Imagine this before that they have they had a permanent presence in washington a long, long time ago because their strategy is to try to self regulate and publicly mention that in broadcast, that to prevent government from coming into regulate dam, because they feel like in decades, once can be all too bad for business.

But also they play get a lot wrong because we know how tech is and how government doesn't necessarily understand things like the earlier story. Um and so he's been very good with trying to you know look like the good steward for technology um and to set standards. Uh so I don't know, he is definitely as a job and good communicator.

Yeah yes one of the best uh I think league speeches members i've ever seen where people are asking him like why are you donating the politicians and he goes but we don't need to politicians to get invited to parties and dinner and so we can influence them to make policies.

That benefit is that you can love somebody just we know that everybody knows that. Is that right?

Still, america's legalize bribing called the campaign contributions. But I have to say he's also good send the headline writers because mister Smith goes to washington is just gold but I mean, yeah, amErica is basically decided you okay, we're against bribery, but we will fund political ads, you know, in other areas in order get influence and that's the way IT works.

And what about allowing pm, me speaking of our legal alizad corruption, we allow our politicians to trade stocks on inside information.

absolutely.

He added me nuts. I think I was listening to ninety polis interview on the interview show with the times the day after the election and just like slammed the table as the democrats, you know being the party for the working class.

And it's trades are so .

seriously on point that people will you know basically mirror all of you treating activity is the second they see IT. You're quite successful at IT.

So that's a good idea. I didn't think of that we should create a new nani policy index.

They have think they have low c etf at this.

And also, what the hell is he doing in congress at this point? He's eighty four and .

finds time served until the day he died.

I think I still sharp. I don't mind like .

that if you share, but you got ta be .

kidding me with the the trading. It's really disgusting.

No, it's it's the ultimate inside of trading. I mean, it's absolutely outrageous. And you they they made Jimmy Carter give up his peanut farm for goods sake. And yet the congress, which are allowed trade on inside information is ridiculous.

Whatever Jimmy Carter did is working for me that do. IT has been an hospital a decade now, and he's still kicking.

I think .

he likes IT.

God blessing. God blessing. The onion .

moveless news.

more less, onion decides to buy info wars. As you know, alex Jones was sued by the Sandy hook families and they won a massive multi think was more than a billion dollar settlement, which required alex Jones to divest his infoworld property in bankrupcy. IT took the Sandy hook family's agreement to take a lesser amount of money for infoworld SE for the onion to buy at.

But it's pretty awesome. The union, of course, is the a satirical news site and says we're going to take info a wars and turn IT into a SAT tire of itself. They're already started by publishing from global tetra heat run why I decided to buy and for wars this is the phony CEO of global tetrahedron brice tetra or um and so if they've already begun, but there might be a fly in the oye because elon musk x corp. Has weight in and is asking for hearing with the bankrupcy court. And while we don't know what the plan is there, claiming the bidding process was unfair, my guess elon wants to buy and forwards himself.

I think that's what everybody was emerging him to do. Once they found out the onion went in their body, right? But there's apparently discretion here that the lawyer for the sand ho family like has, which is that they can accept less money so long as it's more in their interest.

And that's why they're kind of did with the onion was because it's because the onions also agreed to run like anti gun stuff and do stories around that. And they're going to have like a kind of partnership with that program that was the same hood family. So they sort of uh, that reasoning there but yeah looks like that you know elon wants to get in there elbows way and and be again the savior for people on the right say, I didn't realize that the ban Collins, who was a reporter, and you .

see he ronie now yeah.

I like I followed him my twitter and at some point he turned to tim onion, yeah which is like his handle and but yeah, he got together with the butch people. They bought IT when that was that, uh, that all the company he sponged off. And now they went kind of like a private road. And they've been rebooting IT. They do the subscription now with the the proper the paper even know a really good job .

and thanks to Collins for saving the on. You can print a paper now. You can actually get IT back. It's newspaper again.

You know, i'm subscribing .

to the newspaper now.

Just support them. Yeah I used to be when I I first moved some go you get .

IT in great the way.

Yeah exactly. And some of those some of those papers were absolute gold um in front of one still has I think is the two thousand and september eleven edition which was just what the nation needed that time I was holy that I can't say IT but also the little sidebar at the bottom cleaner row, a world trade centres, says the sick day I took ever yeah that's the kind that's the kind of humor that we needed from the onion.

So I do I do hope now the judge seems like he's a little bit in islands, right? Court here. It's a texas judge and he said, no.

Judge Christopher Lopez said no one should feel comfortable with the results of the auction. This is the results of the auction being that the onion had purchased IT. So the x corp. Filing date november fourteenth s does not disclose the purposes of x is appearance other than the state the rights reserved to IT as an interested party and request all relevant documents in the case, I think the argument will be, but you're on that. We want to pay more and that's Better for the bankrupcy despite what the sad hook families say.

the new position to take.

yeah, I mean, they should have a play in this because you they were directly affected by the whole thing. Families have to go into hiding over these lies. So I say bad by term.

There's a lot of I don't think would be out of the prompt suspected ian bought IT.

You'll just give IT back to well remembers that we forward to get stand from every platform they they put him up on x, he streamed on an x but .

if he gets IT back to alex Jones, I think alex Jones will have just like salad back again. So .

again then Collins.

I was watching an interview with ben Collins and he said, not only we get the info wars intellectual property, we've got the variant warehouse, yes, supplements. They got all the supplements. And so he said we're going to melt IT down to make a giant health Candy bar.

Actually, that that was what the fake CEO said he was gonna. Now that he owns IT so will see we'll see what happens. But yeah they they owe not just the right the name to be in for words in the website. They actually own the supplements that alex James was selling that made him a billion and .

a half dollar judgment in that parody. You know why we're requiring the there was a hilarious line or it's like we want to make you as scared as you could possibly be and then sell you supplements so you can live as long as you can to be scared as long as long possible.

Ilan writers, no.

really are good.

really. I know IT IT in captain tes novel, all all of american culture. And yeah, I wish in the best.

If I want to take IT over, that's fine. But I didn't think are going to. I think the annual will fight on this one.

I hope so. He writes Bruce. This is Bruce tetra, or the global tech hidden co. As for the vitamin supplements, were halting their sale immediately. Utility arian logic dict ates, if we can extend even one ceos life by ten minutes. Deluding these miracle, alex, us for public consumption is an unethical waste.

Instead, plan to collect the entire stock of the info wars warehouses into a large vet and boil the contents down into a single Candy bar sized omnivore. That one executive I will not name. Names may eat in order to the decreases power, perhaps become immortal.

That's good. yeah. Sometimes satire should be in the hands of the sort of should not be in the hands of the establishment. no. And so I mean, obviously, like we're talking about musk acquiring and forward, but I just would say be much Better if I was in the end of the satirists dea hell .

of a life funny in the is not very .

shy yeah so worse and I don't think funny. That's what's really bad.

B is not saying because i'm the center, but it's just not funny.

not funny but have .

an on a serious point, we've got ta remember that that I really doesn't change .

the day .

and that money, well, well, I mean, the lovely and alan corn british says, said that, you know, yes, SATA has this role. But you know, germany in nineteen thirty two had some modelers caaba clubs, which we still remember didn't do anything to stop IT. But you know there's only so far that human can do. You know, it's we need to actually it's a bad sorry, a bad ending point.

But you know, I disagree, we're living in a society where, you know, I do think that there needs to be some sort of counter way.

Honestly.

I think I think humor .

is the only defense at this point. And I think charlie chaplin's, the great dictator did a lot to punctured hitlers appeal.

That is a great film. But at the same time, organizing, rather than make up the active .

go and are there for an .

entry point. People need an entry point and .

lived in the Philippines .

market. Philippine.

so good, knows a little bit about this. Yeah, his family are chinos. So he knows a lot about this.

Like what i'm my golden said, I can addon to IT some .

a revolution. absolutely. And yeah.

SHE coming. I think .

he was a call Y O, even Better. No heard biography .

was one the best things i've .

never read really list and also .

the crazy life i've .

ever read that think he was advocating for like twenty, that was just, I don't know, he was so ahead of her time well oh well .

and Better remind that when the communities took over amec s was straight down to the gooley.

So yeah SHE was the first one to um heraldic and a burkman. They came back, he visited right after revolution and they came back to the U. S one on the tour and the first ones to say it's horrible, it's everything and it's like when the worst of leaderships we ever seen, no one believe them, you know but they wrote all about that and they were the first ones. but.

right. Which what's the name of the book? My further disillusions in russia? no.

Oh, that's the one that I was just talking about. That's what you know I did just call live in my life. It's a part.

Yeah, yeah, we like you. No, no, this is you can't win by jack black. I would highly recommend reading that.

There's another one. I get my reading recommendations from twitter. That's awesome. Let's take a little break. I have some other recommendations for you.

We will continue in a moment with our wonderful panel from the big technology, pakistan technology to comment. Alex counter is always a pleasure. Alex love getting you you on and I love show you get such great people.

thanks. Yeah, we're having fun, fun moment right now launching video on on spotify.

So got the nice.

yes. So we're trying to do that with the being we have the spotify coprecipation is just been on. We have revision CEO artist, great.

We have AWS CEO mat garment coming up and of course, no. And arable like we talked about at the beginning of the show. So always great speaking with you and thanks for having .

me on look at you said is that you set your spotify .

set this right here is mine. Although we are going to be tapping some shows that spotify studio at four world trade center.

I like you very nice. I like your webby. And and I was very nice of work with the spotify logo on a wall up there just for is that a webby over your shoulder?

That's their webby, their web. It's a nice studio though. I mean, the real deal .

looks pretty good also with this. Do you have a studio at the register? Ian Thompson.

we do have a studio, but unfortunately the lighting is really bad because we, well, we get great views over the sand to go bay. But unfortunately, the office were in, the lights come on automatically. So close thing though.

So i'm working from home today and I have a large cat with me. Much stuff is sitting has been sitting on my lap for the last hour. So if you see my one of those things, but always have to be on.

nice to have you, of course, and from the wonderful windows central editor in chief, the mig. Man, Daniel romano, always a pleasure to have you as well. Great panel. And I thank you for being here. Our showers is brought you by, I think, a very clever invention.

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yes. So we had a great conversation. Oh, yes. And okay.

So I should say he's not doing those things. We talk a little bit about how he feels about. Creators are doing them.

Spotify y in the AI front is doing some really interesting things like they're allowing users like right up prompt about the type of playlist you want and IT will fill a playlist based off of natural language and what goods of a who came on the show, A C T O, C P O and code present of spotify. Uh, told me was that he wanted you to be in dialogue with your recommendations. So one to people every week, or I got discover weekly, really got me this week, or discover weekly didn't.

And there's no real feedback mechanisms and not spotify has other than you listening or you don't. And what they want to do is put users in dialogue with the APP where they could actually guide the recommendations based off there. Natural language that that was interesting.

But I think you LED with leo was really the most interesting part of the conversation, where I basically press the case, like, do you want your platform to fill with the equivalent of shrip jesus the way that we have on facebook, which is like, we can have A I generated songs, we can have A I generated podcast, they're okay. Do you want those who spotify? And I think like from sono and stuff like that? Ah yeah, we will let off talking with sono and it's getting good.

And so his belief is that you should you, people are going to want to connect with the human behind the music, and therefore A I music will have a limited a appeal. And I don't agree with that. I think that we're gonna to the point where you might be feeling a certain mood or in a certain emotion and you're going to want music to sort of um connect with that mood or emotion and you're going to type in a prompt and you're going to AI generated music.

is that there do risk. So I mean, already creators are kind of not a huge fans of spotify. This is just gona piece create or soft like crazy artist software, like crazy. I mean, that they see AI as competition.

So this is the argument that he made to me, which is that we already have A I baked into songs that human creators are making. So the question is gonna be sort of not should A I be there because A I is already there. It's going to be to what degree of A I you know we're going to be comfortable with.

I think I S is is already there, to be honest. I mean, we've had IT with all out tune for ten years. And yeah but there's .

a difference between that and if fully A I generated. So absolutely.

I mean.

look at as a pod caster, i'm not I already think spotted fy is damaged the industry hugely. I think I blame spotify for what's happened advertising in podcasting. It's honestly.

spotify has LED to a lot more giggs though, from people didn't who no longer have royals. So you be the only .

way you can make music as a musician .

that absolutely formal. But I mean, if you look at the way that A I is is is shifting this market, um you know it's much easier to get AI to do this stuff and the the rights involved are still uncaught. I understand that's .

why I I that's why I spotify loves IT. Spotify lives and dies by the music industry, and I understand they don't like that one cotton. Pick a bit. They would love for there to be some other source of content that they could sell so that they don't have to a, pay royalties of the music industry and b be at the mercy of music industry raising those royalties.

So this kind strong the person, he has a lot of tiles. But but I M president, that's one of the titles. He said they will not create AI music on their own. And my point to ham was like, you might be leaving yourself open to competition if we end up moving to a place where people going to want to listen.

I think that's kind of missing the point though. I'm not worried about spotify doing this but because but everybody else doing IT and yeah putting .

IT on spotify.

we already happening. Guys like this isn't a this is already happening, this a lot, a ton of music.

but already know spotify anymore because you very frequently when you do a spotify search will get something that you didn't want, which is created by some AI or some jerk trying to make money off of search terms.

But I mean, this is hitting us already. I mean, we had a case last week where we didn't jasa blunt security is a great interview with a red team. fantastic.

We published the new story. And within a week and A I had basically stand, stole the story, put in hu cino, or mistakes we used to call, put in the wrong photo and published IT. And he came back to us since just like, yeah, we have to crack down on this absolutely because yeah, yeah, it's just it's a new world out there. Bit at the same time is a deeply unpleasant one.

I know i'm a big A I booster. I think A, I has a lot of promise, but the one thing I know want A I do and is being a creator. I think humans should get to write the poetry, make the art and do the music, and let A, I do the other stuff. You know where I will never gs.

A, I will never break a story. You, they will .

place yeah.

that's clastic power territory yeah.

with you all. I just don't think that that's going to be the world that we're living in. I don't know how long it's gonna take, but I think that we need to be ready for IT because A I is going to create music. There's going to be A I artists are people that are prompting with A I that become stars guys.

I I said we're already there. That's kind of future day. That's where we are today. Yes.

yeah but but that .

bothers you been to do because you're a musician.

right? Bothers me the most because also I have a personal crude again, spotify.

But you that and i'm sure you've talked about IT on the show before, but no book a amp is just every time I use IT to generate a podcast, i'm on a way like one of .

the most amazing what I can do. And I don't think it's great quality, but IT is amazing.

What I can do. Exec, this is a journalist, author is know is a great product, but I trust IT. I'll go through and check .

the the court yeah yeah the transcription which for journals .

great but at the same time you have to check IT because IT makes mistake, sorry, hallucinations, whatever the pig is. But you know, I mean, IT IT genuinely screws up times. So yeah, there are tools out there. We should use them, but we should be dominated by them.

for sure. And one of the things that I think is actually a cool use of note ilm, which can generate a podcast with like two AI voices speaking based off of the documents and articles you dropped in there, is you could end up IT with a long tail of podcast. So I don't think they'll be like the main shows.

But if you want to, like, create a podcast episode on something really weird that you are one of the few people that enjoy, maybe, ian, you'd want to like, do IT about f one back in the days when you are the one person in the bar watching IT. Oh, you can do that. You can do that.

And that might be the use case, in which case I think that's kind of good. But I do worry. Like, is IT gna be, is this gonna a format like I ve thought? Like, do I want to make a daily show? And just like plugging in a bunch of articles on reading and have these holes ready and upload IT to .

the public platforms? This is the problem. IT takes that human inventors out of IT. And you know, everyone's big on a eye the rest of IT, but you need that quickly, human brain, to keep things interesting and unique.

And you.

I actually don't think anybody, I don't think .

I know a single person feel like this is an A.

I makes me more ni thing .

ever. Sorry.

no book. Elm makes me more nervous as a podcast yes and i've touched, yeah my god know a single person .

though who's actually enjoy a full episode no.

no, we mediocre garbage. exactly.

This is version one video. And yes, but you pick a tillier .

a progression .

and it's not like it's .

not A I nobody would no AI could create a podcast as as kind of weirdly human with all of its flaws and foibles as the shows .

that we do. I mean.

I know that later yeah.

but enough to give me you like a bit .

of a heart attack yeah I mean, I the thing is, yes, we all say the human element is really important in this um but it's like and then as you just said, people don't particularly want trash. But having seen american T V in, british T V and T V around the world, long K T, V can .

easily be created .

by a god that's.

An absolute thing thing things that we that are just only human, the essence of humanity that is watching yeah.

that's a five point.

Imagine watching you. You can't watch a dating show. We are two A S like, I don't really know. I'm into this A I, but you can watch a dating show. Where is .

news?

No, it's true. I mean, there are certain stories that A I can write very well, like financial news and sports news.

I know we honestly, when A I first kicked in, we did experiment with because nobody likes doing .

uncial result stories.

dullness thing apart and tuesday yeah but they're the do less thing apart for batch tuesday. So we build nation. We tried to make this work.

And again, it's this illustrate problem and what you dealing with financial figures that's really important. So you just can't trust IT at the moment. I think we want the .

robots to do this stuff we don't want to do so that we can have more time to do this stuff we like like .

yeah but trust the rebels. That's the key issue. I mean, i'm a journalist.

I, what I write, I, my word is my bond, and my reputation depends entirely on that. I'm not prepared to hand that over to N. A.

I, so i'm sure this was a marketing plan, but this is something the british of mobile Operator. O.

to a gorgeous story.

Yeah, they created an AI bot called Daisy that keeps scammers on the line to waste their time. You want to now i'm sure this just basically an auto marketing employee.

Oh, absolutely yes. But sometime it's a briled idea.

I mean, if you've ever got one of those calls, where is just like hi someone, the foreign voice who has a ridiculous y english name like hero, the wake of whatever, just like hi i've we've see the time that you're infected and you need to download the software to one of the biggest joys of those calls is keeping them on the line for about twenty to thirty minutes and saying, by the way, what's my I P address know honestly, cut off. But I love perfect thing I to do. I would .

like the AI to do this and not getting involved in podcasts of making music. The A, I told myself, ics, the voice of an elderly woman, because, of course, the alert people like me are, pray for the scammer. Let me play little o two and for.

Seven and ten brits have been targeted by scammers. And it's not just our grandparents. I was one of them .

and feel like this could be crunk. This isn't not understand.

This is about getting even meet my friend Daisy. Hello, scammers, i'm your worst nightmare. I'm an A I created by o to the waste phones scammers time.

So w is than adult three w and then dot. I think your profession is bothering people, right? I'm just trying to have a little chat.

It's easily been an. Hour to a lot of that's very british. Yes, it's showing me a picture of my cat fluffy.

showing you at a picture of your cat fluff.

Y stop. Call me days, stupid. Because while they're busy talking to me, they can't be scamming you. And let's face IT, dear, i've got all the time in the world.

That's what I should be doing. Where can we get this? I want this. I want this on my phone.

I mean, it's a fanta asic public isc exercise. But at the same time and they're spamming this out onto the call list that the the scan is used, but at the same time, they're going to get worse to be fly quickly. Yeah, we should change the voice. We should change the attitude, but I love the idea voting these people's time because back there is .

which .

dreamer who does this for a living yeah.

in fact.

that's yeah really.

So this is so. According to the PC magazine story, multiple AI models were used to create Daisy, which is trained with the help of youtube e scam batter jim Browning. The tool transcribes the college voice detect generates the appropriate responses using a large language model. All of this takes place without input from an Operator. At times, daily keeps frustrate on the line for as long as forty minutes. That's how to yeah, I don't I don't want to spent waste my time talking with these guys, but if I could put something, just hold on the me that give you my grandma and let them talk to a dazed for a while, I honestly have fun with that.

You know, when you get these scammers, have fun with them.

But this is what I should be using for, used for. Yes, I think yes.

But I am sorry to say, I do think the scammer are moving away from phone calls to text messages. What we had all this do not all they're doing, their texting and all this do not call list is gonna for not because of these pick buttering schemes, which you've heard about so much, where instead of calling you, they text you, they make you think that there's somebody they're not you've all .

up with that person.

I haven't gone any big watching, and I think it's because the campaigns have so overwhelmed my phone that the pig buchers decided to take the time off maybe .

even later till there are break because .

there's so there's so many were so many political text. IT was five or six day for me, but I made, by the way.

they bear a lot of resembLance. They tell you they need you and they your money.

Yeah, I said, stopped to every one of them. Well.

I did a story this week, which who's already interesting in, because he went the other way. So now, malware being spread by male in switzerland, the swiss, the swiss security forces, basically, people were getting letters and with physical letters saying, you know, you need to. So do download this APP on the rest of IT. Obviously, very highly targeted is spearfishing, but just step trying anything they can get at the moment. A I may help on this front, and I think it's not to publicly exercise, but at the same time, the thought somebody sitting there for forty minutes brings joy to the heart.

Here's your story. Swiss cheese off. Nicely done. I I see what he did there. Sis had fun swiss cheese off as postal service used to spread. Now where they were mAiling Q R codes.

yeah, literally physically mAiling. And they cost one dollar thirty five to mail this stuff from from an economic perspective, this has to be very highly speed.

That's going against one of my number one, internet security rules, which is never click your mae.

yes. So can you see the Q R code in your mail?

I don't do there.

yeah. I mean, honestly, scanning dote.

this is a kit boga who is, he says, I called scams using their own voices.

This guys doing the lords work .

OK in real time. It's just going really poorly. I won't play. I believe this is exercise for the listener. Kit boga has three point six million subscribers, so you probably already seen IT and this one had a million views scammers. So IT sounds like them they're calling themselves sort of like, well.

he does all kinds of stuff. He plays around .

with all the scammers. So this might not be made in scamming the scammers. Speaking of scammers, did you watch the congressional hearings on alien .

civilizations and hybrid that through the entry? That was an absolute? I can't say that would.

but the little clips I saw were just horrific.

Oh, IT was just okay. Look.

why is congress wasting its time?

They've had to do IT for the last couple of years because the pen taga agreed to release the reports on an identified flying on grads or ups are now known. Okay, look, we've all seen a UFO. We just didn't know what IT was and some of the stuff that was coming up in the heart Lauran blooper was just come like, is this evidence of an alien civilization under the sale?

That and you can like, seriously, you are sitting member of congress on your asking this stuff you know, it's like you i'm a sound struction nerd. I'm authorize. It's impossible that we are alone in the universe.

Do I think that they are actually coming through and a parag on videos? No, you know. So like if you is an advanced ross, the galactic distance ces, to get here, you're gonna a pretty good masking technology.

So I just wanted try me on this because like I don't believe in millions either, but I love following the law in the stories. I think it's like, yeah, it's just so it's just like ghost story is like I just like listening to IT and stop. So there's actually two really good series on netflix s right now.

One just started was called investigation alien with George nap is a guy that broke at every fifty one story like thirty years ago um and there is nothing calenders and they are both really good documentary because they sort of them they proved seriously. They have scientists, song and stuff and they have some kind of counter points here and there. The thing with the oceans was really interesting because the theory goes that um atmospheres are really tough things to to deal with.

They have a lot of different pressure. You have different like temperatures all over the place, but oceans, whenever a liquid water, uh, are very constant. And so it's easier for if you were going to jump from planet to planet, would actually be easier to stay in the oceans and IT would be the atmosphere post their obviously .

good places to high. See now. And Robert was not wrong.

Yeah, in a lot of the U. A, P, are sited near water. They've been side of coming out of water. Or being .

in like a believer, Daniel.

And not. But what I believe in the sense that like in the the basic of U F O, right there are things that we see out there that .

we don't know what is that doesn't alliance. They're just an identified the real phenomenon yeah .

and but it's some stories like you hear them and like them like what's go about data encounter show a netflix IT IT. Let's take IT one by the same team that does the unsolved, the new untold mysteries. IT has the .

same kind of product thing.

is the same style.

All the stories told her.

one I ve never heard before, and these have been pretty big. It's just been kind of cool um it's kind of funny as discussed this with some friends, those like I don't believe in the alien things because it's like what are the odds right you know billion of years but I don't find humans would be that interesting to other species like you could fly through the universe I don't know why we would be or nicked psychotics right? Not that fascinating. But there is the other theory out there which I don't believe, but I find that I had a pic one makes more sense to which is, aren't alien, their humans from the future coming back in time?

what?

Yeah which especially because if you look at the physical of the great aliens right there, yeah, the guys, two arms, two legs, head around.

for what the odds .

like this life in the universe happens to be, what that they can be too. Just all there are not sixty feet told now they're around the same size of humans. They have to arms, to legs, to from fraction eyes like that. Seems weird to me that we were just presumed life would just automatically go out out first is, you know, evolution. But this idea that there is your .

solution of this is is time travellers from the future.

I just saying about a wild ory. I see you all, I don't believe.

saying.

like if I had to pick ellison or this one, I like that .

time I I didn't .

have double less Adams, his idea with the hitch k is go to the galaxy. Y of people called tweeters who are advances, civilizations who will come .

down to a primitive planet.

Oh, A T V bobs .

on the head. Yeah, go. You took you mess .

with this.

There's only one way for us to find out the real truth about U F. S. And that is for the onions purchase of info s to go through. And chives and we aryan I keeping IT away .

from you.

They know, but they are going to tell you. And till you by these supplements, i'm not going to tell you with that.

Everyone, after sea long used to tell a wonderful story where he was asked, we know all the moon on landing fate. He actually spoke somebody senior in the U. S. S. Military, government and the us. Got a military who was just going like, if they've been fake, I would have been Better to the john chief at the moment, because you would have to take a hundred thousand people out of the look completely. And none, not one of them, would actually spill the truth.

the spirits in general that I have, which you people are really bad of keeping secrets. thanks. It's friction out the math. But that said, what the U. F, O stuff, I think what's alarming, or what as people concerned, is what the military is.

A lot of these what appeared to be kind of drone like things flying around top restricted areas and airport faces and they don't know what they are. They they try to gain the signals that doesn't work. They don't know where they're coming from. Like at the very least, that's a security risk that do you need to address, you know, whether that you know chinese technology, russian technology or just someone who is just screwing around what things I don't know, but there are I will just say there are weird things. The more you I go through these files and new stories since like that, it's a little like, alright, there's definitely stuff out there we don't understand.

Most of the stuff out there we don't understand yeah that's the truth of IT.

But we didn't understand planets for a while, you know we didn't understand asteroid and comments speed to think they were sign turn that goes yeah that's the .

argument here that a lot of people saying they want to sub brought out not to be like, oh, aliens, but because they want real scientists to finally start addressing this because the problem is. That soon as you if you're an actual scientists, and establish you start talking about this stuff please. Also, if you replies scientific .

rigor to almost any of this stuff at kind of evaporates like the aliens, IT doesn't hold up. IT doesn't stand up to screw.

But this was the troubling thing about about the house of representative hearings was you were hearing some .

really a lot of claims, noisy.

a lot of crazy stuff from elected legislation in this country. And it's just like when you get you know people saying, although you and see aliens, although you know is our government conspiracy y and like, well, first of during government so you should know this stuff and second, ly applies some scientific rigor to IT you it's like make IT .

just try me to tell stories. Let's see some proof.

let's see some even so yeah, I agree how to recite. That's a problem with a lot of this up. It's a lot of really good stories. But I will say also, the government does is not helping a lot ways.

There is the game of a in the senate has secured clearance and there was a whistle blower who was one of these people saying all what sounds like crazy things but love IT he couldn't tell them in person he had that to go into a skf secured uh department and the government saying what he's saying isn't true and there are go can we have the skip so he can brief us and brighten their like now they won't give them access to this gift you know they're saying what he saying isn't true. So it's like, well, why like so there are some weird things that go on here where they are definitely secret. But the question is, are their secrets? Because there there's two theories, right? One is that were running secret programs, and this is a cover for IT.

And they like having a UFO cover story that distracts people from the idea that were actually testing some advanced technologies. This happened with s seven one blackboard. This happened with the b two steel D F one seventeen eight people must stuck at for U F S.

And wear things or the things they are just concerned because this also is um you know during the sixties and I think that russia was also having a lot of U O sightings and they were downplaying both russia new U S. At these were U F O S because they were worried that there were so many reports coming in that was overwhelmed the reporting system and they couldn't tell, because every time they did have A U F. O report, they want to investigate to make sure wasn't russia sending spy planes over with some technology.

But they were getting so many reported that they were worried as something was going to get throw. And like that, they were in a wash, a could actually attack us and we would, you know, would be A L harbor thing. So they purposely sought to bound play the existence of your s so that people would stop reporting them.

Uh, so there's like that a lot of weird stuff that goes on here with the government of yeah and whether the alien thing to me is probably natural. I mind the other S. V asked of the secret programs like I find this little bit more interesting and I think should be answered.

OK 耶， truth is out, but the truth is out there. But at the same time, we're not gone known until those different proof.

And I say, honestly, I thought when trump got elected in twenty sixteen that he would release all the archives, released all that stuff, because aliens. Why didn't he?

Do you guys want to meet aliens? Like, if you could, what do you want to meet them? I know I enough stuff. Give me .

superpowers. I don't care.

Well, I mean, the famous british france fiction authors and banks called IT an outside context problem. It's like basically, when you've got your civilization running pretty good, you know, you got a food surplus, you're building up institutions, and all the sudden this alien species comes in indication of amErica with steam ships and muskets and priests with a very interesting looking their eye.

And that's basically the end of your civilization. Same with aliens. Yeah.

that's with that. The imagine they show up and .

their like key guys, we are from a different planet and we have a shit ton of bitcoin.

You can, you guys, they are aliens here there. There are whales and dolphins, those are intelligent beings.

OK? Yes, yes, yes. But at the same time, the cbs creatures, which means they can't store food, they have no militias. They can .

make fire. That's the problem.

It's do they .

did evolve .

from a land, animals to see creatures. Maybe they come the other way.

True true. I means like, and yeah, they don't have only fans, but you know, I bought thing, I bought city of well songs and then to be a dolt in tribute band called a hay with the Mickey but like.

my god.

but is that a .

real thing? He were the Mickey.

No, those, sadly, we just that up. No, that was a great job by the light, great comedian lindsy h. But I was just, you know, I mean, there are octopuses, an intelligent species, dolphin's whales, killed whales, absolute buggers.

But yeah, they they still managed to survive. We're not alone in the universe. We can't beat mathematically. No, yes.

we can. We can. Mathematically.

we can. I know I I am sorry. I refused to believe that life only exist on this planet that's know. So I think .

the question is it's like I could this moment in time, though this moment in time is the problem. Do you know the billion years old? There's the idea that that's what bothers me. The idea that there's a civilization that just happened to be event enough is at the same time of IT, you know, rise in two hundred thousand years that we've been really as humans and like digital happen to find our place like that. Yes, pretty to and of course you get to really, you know multiple universe theory and you know yeah, different ideas have helped everything structure that maybe but he would require faster .

than travel or teleportation house yeah I mean, on all these are or subspace and hyper space in the various things. Honestly, let's face IT. We're alone in the universe for the moment. Maybe we'll get there at at some point.

But if trump wants that, he was also to release a gfk files. He didn't do that either.

So maybe because there's nothing there. It's just boring. Same boat.

F, K, I think it's just a Normal assassin side. I think there is other stuff around IT, but I don't think it's the grand conspiracy when people like the moon landing was fake like so no.

i'm so that that really grinds my gears because OK, the moon landing was fake. Russia was watching this like a hawk during the cold war.

if they're been any indication. So what now how do you like any different? I mean, get tomorrow we we have reflectors .

up there that you can fire laser off and get A A thing back. You know, it's that kind of logical stupidity is like why didn't know about holcus denied? In which case why did nobody in europe g say this is all fake? It's the same with the moon landing. It's just kind of like.

but but dona has a point that even if IT, we're fake so what I change, how does that change anything, right? I want to take a break. We're going to come back our final words you guys really brought as da and .

rapped rapped hole. I want to dig .

ourselves out and that will have final words and just a bit with a wonderful panel. This actually is more interesting conversation than I thought I would be the the i'm glad I brought up um our show. They brought to you by not an alien, but something you might know called net suite.

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One last story, usually if if there's an a bitch wary, close the show with that. And this one is a name that should be legend everyday everybody who's done in a computer programing. Thomas e. Courts, who was the invention of basic, along with his pal john kemeny, courts in city's basic programing language written at the dark mth, part of the dark mth. Time sharing system in the in one thousand hundred and sixty.

In that time, there was really no simple beginner language, easy to use for undergraduates, courts and commonly developed basic, so that you could be access by students around campus on teller types, and began, I think, the computer revolution, I mean, bill gates use those teletyped programmed to basic. When he was in high school, we had a terminal, I remember was in a look closet. I cooked up to a time share IT had basic on IT IT got a lot of people started one thousand nine hundred and sixty four years, a picture of Thomas courts from the dart math, a college library. He's on the right his partner john comment on the left. The evade of basic passed .

away in IT was my introduction.

Computing because mine too.

almost everybody right yeah in in the U.

K. Computers were hidden.

Less expensive in the city, which was time max and um sick was they didn't bother with you know you couldn't do U I at that at that time but based they gave you basic manual and said, right this is how you learn program you and but every single program of a certain age of spoken to, we started with basic unless they are even .

older .

and started with I learned to code.

My first program was that write in basic on a tarries. That's how bill gates got the microsoft started, was writing basic for the mitts. Altera, I have A A fake mitts out there behind me running basic.

I was good. That's a real one and but it's running .

it's a rasberry pie and it's an outer eighty eight hundred, but it's an exactly took out the front face of IT.

but it's made in made computing.

useful, accessible that's .

yeah it's the same thing that you know Grace hop IT with in terms of translating machine language so incredibly important in a great .

loss nineteen sixty four. Thomas equites, one thousand nine hundred and twenty eight to twenty and twenty four he was an elderly man. He was in his late ninety so lived life yeah and did a lot for the computer revolution.

the original angry birds in basic no kid, well called danger birds. IT wasn't called angry birds.

IT was called gordon ned.

I typed in one hundred programs from compute magazine.

the gorillas on on top of buildings, and they through bananas at each other on.

And you give, you give IT speed. You give a power and an angle, and that's how would throw the bad i'll be doing.

They are .

actually happy birds back then, and then they left.

But now, I mean, you've just remind to me with computer magazines where you just have to type in the code, the magazine. And this is wrong. This, what suit was so important back in the day, because one wrong code and that, and you had to .

save IT to a cassette, and then loaded enough of cassette playing the .

tone control all the time to make sure the computer. Yes, my god, I feel like an old far right sorry guys.

Also the snake also snake.

Snake was first on basic yeah i've written in ten several versions of snake and later language. But ah they .

just start agree, reintroducing a nokia feature phone with psyche and with a week's battery life, which I have to say as a camper is really tempting.

Place snake for yeah ian thomson IT is so great to see you. I'm sorry we don't have a studio for you .

to come visit in any longer but the days yeah and you have the big chair so yes yeah but honestly I .

still love the big chair is over here and I can show, I show a picture the big chair I have have a two shut there IT is, see the doctor evil chair, we call that.

Fta and I will do so.

Thank you and great to see you once again was a pleasure at the register dot com. Thank you. Daniel rubino, always a thrilled to have you want to her and chief of windows central, anything you want to a plug you have, winter is central podcast. Yes.

although we have to done IT for a while.

so never mind. Forget I mentioned, forget I mentioned, you're too busy, right? And great stuff.

We still do that. Please stop on youtube as well.

nice. Thanks for joining us today, dad. appreciated. And thanks to alex counter, which whose big technology podcast is Better than mine. No, but i'll never forgive you for that.

but good job.

He's got, he's got the big names. I'll tell you that we look.

that's always great to speak with you. I love being on the show. I love list I looking .

for to of that's yes.

And he said he might play, gets play a mario car.

Well, yeah, I hope we're gonna .

place a mark if he's got a direct brain connection to mario cart. I think you're in trouble. He does yeah mean, how how can you beat that?

We're going to find out hopefully a couple weeks technology.

Thank you, alex. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you in and a special thanks to all of our club twit members who've make this show and all the shows we do possible without you, there would be no twitter.

And if you're not yet a club twit member, I would love to have you in the club some really great, smart, interesting people. You can hang out with them in the club twit discord that's kind of inside the vivent rope. We do special events in the discord.

We've got to a Stacy books club coming up next month. We've got Chris mark guards photo segment coffee segments just around the cover to a tasting michels is crafting corner. You also get video for a lot of the shows that we do audio only in public, like hands on windows, hands on macintosh this weekend space.

There's so much in the club, but the main reason to join is that keeps us a float. Advertising dollars have shrunk over the years. All of the consumer ads, like the food boxes in the mattresses, they won't disappeared and we have to make up the difference in the club has really helped us, in fact, at least told me the other day the club pays half of our payroll now.

So you're really helping keep people people like benito employed, keeping the lights on. None of IT goes into my pocket IT all goes to keeping the Operations running. We really appreciate IT.

Oh, and it's only seven dollars month. I mean, it's not a lot of money going to tweet that TV slash club to IT a couple of cups of coffee in their yark. You will be supporting us plus we give you two weeks free or two week free trials.

See if you like IT, we also will give you a free months when you refer another member. So when you join up, you'll get a code you could post everywhere, put IT on your x or you, or your facebook or whatever. And everybody who joins using that code gets you a few months.

So there are lots of ways to play the game. Twitter TV slash club twitter. I really appreciate the support.

Thank you very much. We do twitter every sunday, two pmp ivic, five pm easter and twenty two hundred UTC. Thanks to the club, we can stream this now on eight different platforms.

We ve got on discord for the club members, youtube, twitch, tiktok, facebook, linked in extra command kick, eight different ways you can watch live. But honestly, the best way to watch is to download a copy the show, subscribe or go to the website, twitter, TV. You also see a link there to the youtube channel for the video.

If you want to watch the video on youtube, that's a great way to share a little clips. You know, that's a fun way to do that. So lots of ways to watch.

Please do and come back next week. We'll see you then one thousand six episodes and i've been saying IT for everyone of another tweet is in the can. We will see next week. Good bye. it's.

Do on the train, the train .

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