TWiT 1007: All the Hotdogs in the World - China's 'Salt Typhoon' Hack, Google on the Chopping Block, Recall AI
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It's dia trate this week in tech. I have a great panel, all daddy. Actually, it's kind of interesting.

Petric baja is here. Westly fucker. And alex wilhelm will talk about what summer calling the worst act in our nation's history. There has have been a lot of press coverage.

And I think that's because it's not a lot we can do about IT the supreme courts going to decide the fate of america's low income broadband fund, spirit airlines files for bankrupcy. And then we'll talk about mark zuker berg plan to make the APP stores do the age verification, get some good parenting advice. Along with that, it's all coming up next on twin. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is to IT.

This is to IT this week next episode, one thousand seven, recorded sunday, november twenty forth, twenty twenty four, all the hot dogs in the world. It's time for twenty this week can tech the show we over the weeks tech news and it's a it's it's daddy time on the show. Every single one of is has Young children except me, I I adult children.

But we're daddies here. So nice, alex wilhelm, now, with two cottom, two babies, one girl, one boy, what? Two girls, two girls. Two girls. Sir, how is that?

In a, you know, everyone told me, two, one and two is a lot. Good luck. And I said, we got this in the bag.

No, he did not. Two hundred two was a lot. It's a lot is .

more twice as much. I will say that IT is once at the dies, life gets a little bit Better. You just accept .

that clocklike on to zero. You know, like when you have a new baby, everything that you earned with the proceedings, child, like the ability to sit up, just god are over.

And when they are both crank at the same time.

I, so right before this was I I went inside, does say how to the spouse and say, have record now, you know and then I went in the house and just both babies were going at IT. I was like, all right, well.

have he says he feels alex was very guilty doing this show? But it's also a thinking of IT is a respect you don't do IT that often once in westly fotch is also here. Your kids are a little bit older now. They when we just started working, they were pretty Young.

Yeah, twelve and eight now yeah.

And that's got to be interesting.

And so hi, all over high value.

Are they watching?

no. But blast, son, they're like, do you ever like shout us out when you like? Like so I take a .

asking the names because I I don't know how people feel about outing there their kids. It's not exactly national television. I think I don't know how you feel. So I just we just no.

but this is the audience that can dock you like .

these guys have the skills that for sure, that is Patrick baja, who we've had on many, many years. For many, many years. You're probable the longest running to IT regular on the show.

You were in finland. You are now back in france. I am back in france.

yes. And my superhero wife is taking care of of the two kids. This show, we shouldn't say .

that I show. This is show where the wives are doing all the work and we get to play, although alex would rather be playing Victoria.

Look, I didn't want to make IT see that. I don't want to be here. I looking .

forward to see playing with my brother be playing legal legends. Other than that, are you do you play legal legislative rec or watch?

yes. So I play a little bit um I mostly play the ipad version, which will get me like looks from the actual PC. I I did play that a little bit, but it's a little bit more.

It's easier to get into the games are shoulder. Um so I play that to relax. And putting legal legends and relaxed in the same sentence isn't really possible. But IT is .

possible with wild rifts. nice. I like wild rift. Is that is that what the .

is the name of that? That game? They had two ambitions when they first launched IT IT seems there.

They didn't reach the goals they set for themselves. And it's mostly popular in asia. But I I am, I keep IT going here. So you don't know I might be playing IT right now.

It's possible I might be a viking in the other, on the other screen right now, building my little house in westly foker. What game do you play? We now have all of us.

i've been noted, ginny impact most .

the time of nice.

kind of a classic. Yes, it's, I ve gotten into IT recently, and so I can started all .

over nice and I think you can get a bunch of people together and just ask what game you are you playing these days yeah just like, you know what what TV showed you like and isla and everyone.

look, you reading .

yeah exactly what are those?

I'm i'm really a good book right now.

What are you going?

I'm point out my order table account to .

to tell you i'm reading accidence by Peter f. Hamilton, which is a thousand pages of hard size I fifty thousand years in the future. So it's very different. I like good.

I made an empire dust a series by ana Smith Spark my first will dive into the Green dark. John and I need the .

right time for that.

Alex is already grim, dark out here, but he gets why escape ism is great? Because that's escape is grim, dark.

It's just sad. It's about it's not an addi essentially doing bad things and i'm like, this is just my life. Like a body is why I do this. Who bout that?

I was me. I bought IT.

Yeah right. Reading slow, which explains a lot about the world. Yeah really good.

Very timely I think. Um how about U S.

Yard book? I'm reading the half built garden.

Oh.

what's that about .

I that yeah it's a safe novel I am writing on my own book and you are rested to me by my A A O podcast host that I do another show with, uh, that they read at first and they said that I should read IT because it's nice, similar to what i'm writing.

All congratulations is this.

the book about the aliens come and the planets being healed by the local community groups and then how they interact?

Okay, yeah, again, timely.

That book is so country. That book makes the cobles origin look look like hard core right wing IT is such a happy environmental ref is great. But .

that's the, well, congratulations on the incipient book that's great westling see, that's what happens in your kids get old enough to they can go to the it's probably two.

three years out. It's it's really no hurry.

I don't want to rush you, but I guess we should get into the news after all. I'll start my timer now we that part can be just just a settling in portion of the show. So nice to see. Bush, yes, our most bush. I like IT, I like the chef, is prepared a little something about .

gaming and books to begin your twenty eight course .

meal because there's a lot this is it's so funny how sometimes there's a lot of news and sometimes there's nothing in this week, there's a lot of this effect. I want to cover what what is, I think, maybe a very uncovered story that's now being called the worst hack in our nation's history.

China has been taking advantage of the fact that our infrastructure is our phone infrastructure is adequate, plus thanks to our law enforcement officials who decided about almost twenty years ago now that how we're going on digital, we Better have a way to tap digital phones. They put a back door in the phones in the in the telecom infrastructure so that they could tap pet. Unfortunately, when you put a back door and something, I think we now learned that, uh, that is hard to keep that a secret.

And now the chinese are in, I don't know how we get out or get them out. Salt thai hoon is what the western intelligence agencies are calling the hackers, first reported in october. I don't think we have really talked about IT for a while.

Mark Warner talked with the post and the times this week to say is the worst telecom hack in our nation's history. He is the chairman of the U. S. Senate intelligence committee, and I didn't realize this, but the Warner's background that he was a telecomm executive in the eighties and nineties, my hair is on fire, he told the washington post.

Not a problem if you using signal, but this is a problem if you're just sending regular tax and and encysted over text between apple devices and android devices, for instance. Until recently until our actually no is still not equipment because apple is a support encysted with R C S. So those text are acceptable.

Um the hackers breached the system, he said, not ough for the election, but months earlier, in many cases as long as a year ago. So they've been sitting in there and listening now. The post says fewer than one hundred and fifty people have been identified as having their text messages or phone calls monitored. But let me tell you, it's the right hundred fifty. They're all in the dc area and they're very much involved in our national politics and our intelligence agencies and our long enforcement agencies.

This is I feel .

like maybe is IT too complicated or maybe law enforcement is a little bit embarrassed that they ask for this back door until the communications and now it's been hacked.

You know, I think the lack of response is a little bit like climate change and that it's little hard to pend on how this impacts any individual person. Like, if I go to my friends, hear in town and OK, you know, because still calm back in american history, they're gonna blink at me twice and go like.

okay, cool. But yeah and what now we do yeah.

right? So I think this too far removed from the average person to have the kind of like coverage little that I think you think he deserves. But I do think that we should stop giving foreign hacking Operations such awesome names. Salt phone, absolutely brilliant. Why we call them like, you know.

the idiot .

circus they should call IT very short back up what they.

So all of this run wide pointed this out h last month, and I mentioned IT, but we didn't really, you know, maybe alexa, right? That is just hard to kind of dig into this story. So back in one thousand, nine and ninety four, see then FBI ratter.

Li free asked for backlogs and wiretaps to digital tech communications. He says we can't. We can't get in and clear was past the communications assistance for a law enforcement net.

That's that's now twenty years ago. Of course, this is really an important I really maybe this is the biggest take away from this. Back doors inevitably get hacked. You can't back door encryption safely, period and we're still long .

enforcement is always going to like push for access no matter what, even if IT does compromise security. Um I think we're talking about the iphone rebooting story later. But this one of those things where if they see a change or they see that I could like influencer dominance in the space, they they are onna fight back because that they're written Better that tell they survive by just stopping up as much information .

possible yeah and that's that's their role. I mean, that's what you have. You should have a baLance of power in. In most things, the law enforcement wants to get access to more information to do their job more effectively. And you need to have other people who are like, well, way to second.

i'm not blame you, but you are in the country that arrested pavel door because he wasn't giving french laender cement back door in the telegraph tell no.

that's not what he wasn't giving. He wasn't giving the information that he was being that was being requested. It's not like they were asking, you know we should be able to have access to all of the communication of telegram. Um they wanted information, most likely meta data that he had access to and he has no um infrastructure to comply with regulation like this. You're pretty sure that .

they weren't sane break and and encryption I didn't have to with telegram because encryption is terrible.

We just learned uh, last week actually that um there has been a series of arrests, uh something like twenty people that we're participating in A A A child explosion ring just you know a week ago and and IT would be surprising if those who warrant related since do often his team ended up CoOperating. IT wasn't like I don't think like the principle of IT.

I can understand that people will be a little bit like cautious about what this means, but I don't think what the authorities were asking for was unreasonable and he certainly wasn't, you know, full back or even though, of course, european authorities, just like they do in the U. S. And everywhere will push for that.

Although now with salt typhoon, I think that gives uh uh, fuel to the people who say, see, maybe not. And just to be clear, it's only text messages that are intercept, right? Like I messages is safe. Uh, what's happen and end to end encysted messaging that is presumed .

fun calls. Presume for all the who makes fun calls.

well, I mean, the hundred and fifty people who were targeted, I will be in an age racket where they do on on the first is not like, you know, it's trivial certainly it's it's a big deal um but it's not everything on your phone it's it's surprising though that I didn't even know about that law and the fact that they had a computer with the best word going like, okay, I log into the system and I can see everything in the all of the time communication infrastructure in amErica that's like crazy.

It's at the time promise there be no back door. We will protect this. It'll be safe.

Don't worry about IT and you know maybe maybe took twenty years. So maybe IT was sort of right. I leo.

can I can I equipped about something that we're saying here with one hundred and fifty people think because I just pulled up between from draft organ is a post contributor and he said the senator rounds said that china's salt atran have gave the chinese coming his party the um the ability to read your text and listen to your conversations. So to me, that puts us a little more on the .

on the the phone network. And if it's not an encrypted, they got IT. Ah and our phone systems because of kolia are wide open you know because there's a back door .

my is coming even the encysted messages of their text messages, they could .

even .

see where the sort and the even if who's .

have the chairman joint she's .

to staff is is talking to you know john I don't know who he's talking to. He's talking to somebody then you know you know who's they are talking to.

But then that also also to foreign in points, right? So if I got off the network into another network, if they had access to those networks as well, there's multiple layers in which that 哦。

so essentially the the chinese communist party now is Better intelligence on tolls.

I gather, than we do here that that's the example of given if tosi gabbles calling flattery putin or Donald trump is talking in vami putin, or, you know, elon mosques talking in vitamin putin presumable and see .

who that person calls next, right? Yeah, yeah, and yeah, maybe matched those things up.

wow. Ah yeah. You get, you get the idea.

You see where is the problem? According to the executive director of U. S. Cyber command, who not bar and truck. That's that's next year Morgana a damn ski. Um said that the chinese linked cyber Operations are aimed gaining an advantage in case of a major conflict with the us. They've .

compromised.

And by the way, this is not just so typhoon. They've i've compromised our grid. They have compromised a lot of our infrastructure and IT networks so that they can, according to adapt to Carry out disruptive attacks in the event of a conflict.

They're just sit in there. They have access to heating, valuation and air condition systems and server rooms. They have access to the grid, the power gate, to water controls.

This is all from U. S. Officials saying they have this access.

So what what do they do now? I mean, what does, what does? Does the american infrastructure do? Do they just change the password use, like a password manager? Like what, what happens next?

Do they repeal the law? Do they remove the back door? And sure, a lot of law enforcement and agencies rely on IT to to well.

according to the new york times, they're concerned.

I'm sure. I'm sure they're evaluating.

deciding what to do the promise. Of course, you need to know where they aren't, how deeply and grain they are. And yeah, sure, they're trying to do something about IT.

We are telecoms that they they have infrastructure that they don't want to replace. They are IT. Security is expensive and that's hardware and software and the expertise of staff.

And in the madness, they try to do these capital, expend datur res, build up these networks and then just right them until they explode, patch them. And the modern security needs modern equipment. And to be able to replace all that equipment and make sure it's up to date is not something that they have ve been insignificant to do. They, meanwhile, as much money off the top as I can.

thanks. Are you saying tiktok? That's all I can say is about that's what we're doing. We're banning tiktok.

They'll fix IT. But westly, do you think they're just they don't have the like ability to fix IT, like they're just leaving IT as is and the chinese have access to IT and .

and that's IT. I think if you can see what are the negative consequences that is imposed on them as of now, you can see that there is no incentives to fix IT. They're not losing their license.

There's no threatening of anything. It's just like business as usual. And so there's no incentive to change IT.

Am I insane that it's weird they were doing business with china as a nation like the trade and rules and chips and planes, while they pretentiously undermine our national .

security day to what instead?

Well, we could collapse the economy overnight by .

stopping imports. You collapse yours at the same time.

So I think we might find I I find out I think that's on the table.

I'm not trying to say that I, Alice, about him and have the solution here. I is very strange that was here going china going to attacked I one by two and twenty seven. And I think .

you go the other way. Personally, I think your best bet is to its strengthens and to get more economic cleaner twined so that there's less incentive for china to break to be a bow in the china shop, right, make IT show that it's date more dangerous for them and this is I mean.

this is the weight works since the end of world war two, right, intertwined economically all the economies you can so that no one hasn't incentive to send bombs, uh, on one another. And we've seen time and time again that when the economies are not working together, then that's when the real issues started happening yeah I mean, I think work .

russia feels free to Operate, uh, because they are kind of already A A they were they're been a para. So they have less to risk and sanctions haven't slowed them down .

much because I guess, starting to how it's starting to know. yeah.

And then the second, I mean like like I mean the the other side of the coin here, the people that were talking about being bad actors have a breaks off off in the global intern and become technology islands. I just find IT very strange that this is not just because there's not bullett, leo. We don't tend to treat this stuff the same way like if if no.

agree, it's aggression. But the chinese have been doing this with everybody. He's been saying this with IP for at least fifty years. As soon as something is releasing states.

I remember going going in beijing, going into the basement of of shopping mall and every DVD, every book, every bit of, uh, content that was created in the united states was illegally. You was pirated there. And a nice pirate.

They looked to exactly like the real thing. You know, they had the alamo and all that stuff that's been gone on forever always bugged us. But yes, but what would happen? I'm well, this is not really for this show because this the technology. But well, you have been work with jay.

No, I was going to come .

in and it's understandable.

You also remind the information we have is actimel ical. They are if all of the breaches that they have discovered that we are doing into you have their security, them I exactly i'm guessing that we're working on IT. And this is something that's probably .

you i'm sure there are some things happening, but this is all going spar for the course. And as you were saying, leal, the alternative is I cut off relations like trade relations, and IT absolutely makes things worse. Absolutely like you. No, I to I us this this is from .

the new york times story. U. S. Communication system is built on a mission mass of aging systems, which made IT far easier for the chinese to break into upward of ten count m, ten cattel communications companies.

At the White house meeting, the message delivered by top american intelligence and national security officials was despite the aging technology, the telemundo ation companies need to find, need help, need to help find a permanent way to keep mad of the systems. Doesn't sound like they're trying to do IT. And by the way, making the necessary fixes could create painful network gaddis for customers.

The critical parts of the american telecomm system are too old to upgrade with modern cyber security protections. This is interesting. We've always know we were the first cell network users. The internet started here.

And often when it's old infrastructure, you're a disadvantage to countries that just leapfrogged you know, countries that didn't have a big telecoms icons of big phones system went straight to cell phones and leap frog us. I think that we've seen that again and again. We have a disadvantage by being the first movers.

We have a lot of old stuff. It's kind like windows. We we got a lot of old stuff elt code in there. Some parts of the system date to the late seventies or early eighties when land lines that cellphones dominated in network.

When participant in the meeting again from the new york times said the only solution to the problem was ripping and replacing whole sections of the network. The process the country to investin renting car, who is the inbound chairman of the fcc says. One of the things he wants the federal government to do is provide more economic support for ripping in place.

Take, you know, that's what they did, what they didn't h in europe with the railway equipment. They took IT out. I think that smart.

I mean, bringing car is not gna be my favorite fcc two person. But I do think on china, his hawkish positions at least match my own bringing up tiktok. Gino, he's always been on the no side of that which i've respected. I wonder if we have the national will to spend money on things just given the current political climate because IT would take, I don't know, Wesley back me up here, ten, fifteen, twenty billion to rein replace a big chunk of the U S. Uh, wireless customer.

But is not just that. It's just what's next, right? So it's it's removing old self and putting a new stuff, but it's the ongoing support. The if if you're familiar with all the the the revisions of I O S and android, there are constant security threats and some of those are built into the software, something that's built into hardware. So IT needs to be not just was recent release, but there needs to be something that causes an ongoing vigiLance that made to make sure that not only this is something that is done, but is something that is a focus, meaning that there need to be as r. There needs to be some protocol, there is be some certification there to be inspections there to be some sort of ways to audit these systems.

Has someone be able to prioritize those? And it's gonna cost money either are going to come from the describer or come from the the federal government and I and with uh doge uh being enacted in terms of how we spending our money, um I don't know exactly if there's going to be an appetite to deal than money on these telecoms to to get up to speed. I think it'll be pushed into saying, well, let's just move over to satellite, let's move over to whatever elan does to fix IT and and more abandoning what we have rather than .

actually yeah enforcing. You can bet elon saying right now, you know you know what, they're not in they're not in starling. Um by the way, to answer your question, apparently we have been hacking them similarly.

In fact. There, let's see. This is again for the new york times.

There are limits time for the next states compressed its case with china. So far, the chinese hack appears, involve only surveilLance. Well, yeah, well, i'm sorry. Okay, that's something united states does regularly.

The chinese telecoms icons company, and as a form of espy, I considered fair game as the two superpowers navigate a higher stakes are using spy technology if after spy technology. So in other words, we've done IT two, however, once senior american officials said, told the york times, i'd have to say the chinese have matched or exceeded what we can do. And we didn't see this one coming.

This was a, you may remember the biden sheet en ping of china met and lima, peru last weekend. And this was in fact, one of the first stop of conversation at these high level meetings. I don't know what you, I always wondered, what do you say? Knock IT off.

No, no. Knock IT off. no. Please knock IT up.

no. Think what you do. What you do is that a you, you may be on principles, say that that's not really cool what you did, but really what you should do is upgrade your infrastructure as we've been discussing and it's fair game.

You know, just like I was saying earlier, the, uh, law enforcement authority is GTA push to get uh access to your encrypted data and there is someone that should be saying, no, you can do this because this is that reason in uh the spy agencies are gonna try to exploit every uh uh way they can to do their job. And I think that's expected. I think that's fair game.

And your role is mostly to make sure that their job is really difficult a and to secure your infrastructure. And you can tell china don't even try spying on us like everyone does IT the us. Does IT in europe. Everyone does IT what you do.

You set some limits. You said some a lot. Look, we're going to spine, you're going to spy us, but you can't break the grid or things like that.

Remember that the office of personnel l manager was hacked by the chinese back in, uh, twenty and fifteen and at that time, a president, he promised to abide by a new limits and S P age obama went to him say, hey, man, that's that's not cool and in present he said, okay, fine, okay. For a few months in a court stuck, the volume of the attacks diminished. But by the time obama left office, IT was clear that chinese hacking Operations had shifted from military units to intelligence agencies, which work with greater steff.

Honestly, I think that's part of the problem is that we don't you nail IT westly, we don't know what to do. We've really got to know grand solution. So all we're going to say as well, okay, we'll limit our stuff to surveilLance. If you limit your stuff as surveilLance and getting though.

because it's china today, but IT could be russia tomorrow or the korea, we can't do IT as an on their side.

Well, we should fix stuff. Obviously.

we should just fix that on our side.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the question. Can you really ever is there any such thing as a as a perfect protective net there? Anything, anything? To fact, authorities in the us.

Communications IT can be perfect, but i'm sure can do IT. So there isn't the back door. Know if you have the last work, get access to everything like that. The lesson here, and single .

man or something.

Well, the chinese are working hard on quantum computing. Obviously, the ban administration, again from the new york times, he said very little about the attack. Much of the resistance came from the justice department in the FBI, which is what a surprise, didn't want to up and their own investigations.

You can't close that back door. We need IT same reason we don't have, uh, privacy protections in the united states because intelligence agencies is like IT. The data brokers collect information about them, sell IT to them that saves them .

a lot of time. You've saw that .

wired stories about data tracking and us soldiers being .

tracked around to nuclear relics yeah it's like this is out the open that is so strange um. Yeah, I think I is a big story. I guess maybe there's nothing to say about IT except it's going on. It's not surely .

there they're working on a fix like surely they can't just leave IT and and let the time the chinese like have you know full visibility on the network. I don't know that it's gonna an easy fix, but they're .

gonna try that. You would think you would think. But I but notice we don't have national federal data protection in this in this going.

And this wired story is a perfect example. More than three billion phone call is collected by a single us. Data broker, exposed the detailed moments of U.

S. Military intelligence workers in germany. And the pentagon is powerless to stop IT because it's legal to do this in the next states. And I have to say, I think the only reason is legal to do this in the the united states is so these these data brokers can help our intelligence .

agencies gather information. This is like one of those cartoons where someone goes to help and you like, oh, you like hot dogs, do you? Here's all of a hot dogs in the world. So all who we were finding them, this is giving you too much data. And so they look to find a way to store and process IT o coiled IT.

So we're we're all test now with the burying the chinese and hot dogs.

So you also if we generated fake data and just just like with um the A A I and poisoning the well, if we can just make our own like uh way of just flooding the zone with a whole bunch of just fake coordinate, fake data, fake people like all that stuff, then they would have to do the work of filtering that out as well. That's a the only other way, make our own data broker and just just pollute .

the whole thing. Well.

that management today with this own platform and it's not going so good. But this maybe we were working this case. I mean, to fair, every of that also synthetic gate, something I can be hearing about A I companies and I I don't actually know how good IT is, but I wonder if get use that same system, do IT you're same?

I'll be efficient. Well, the ftc solution, and of course, remember in two months, everybody of the ftc out, but for the next two months, the ftc solution is to file lawsuits to make these data brokers not watch U. S. Military installations.

So this a little of the U. S. Military is really including the secret once that great.

That's a solution. Don't honor that. Don't look. You can't know.

You can't look. Um I don't know. You're right.

I'm sorry, I brought this chinese thing up. There's nothing you can say about IT. We're just we're just kind .

of I mean.

it's a it's a new cold war. It's and I tell you what if sorry, if johna kerrey needs to start running some novels about this because this is the new spy game.

isn't IT. It's not very sexy. It's not very exciting.

It's not very jail bond. It's not very and more. If you can make .

up a bunch of guys playing a or league of legends, interesting bunch of guys sit there, draw down like this one. You can make this interesting .

not until they use IT. They actually have to use IT. They have to like make some some really.

really the two, they're just sitting there, which is I super smart. They're sitting in the grids. And in a way, maybe this is them saying don't start anything with us because we've got our hands around your neck to which I hope we're responding. Guess what? It's like a mexican stand up.

We got our gets around to assure destruction.

Yeah, that kept out of a nuclear war for almost a century. Yeah.

but no one, no average american is going to complain about this until I worked down for a month or that's .

what they yeah yeah yeah a new power .

and juice guys contain IT or something like that that's that's the only thing that's onna cause them to say, oh yeah this is a problem they need it's it's not um it's not the precursor is not prevention that is the attention. It's the uh like the aftermath and the response. And so if there is no incursion, there's no response that is gonna seen as important.

And that's why if you look at cyber security across the board, it's all like that. Um because all of IT is theoretical until something happens and even in a data breach, it's like what they didn't doing that the data or won't come back to us. But most people are like, well, how do I spend the money on preventing something or making our quarterly numbers a and and raising our share Price? Which one is gonna? I am the C E.

O. I'm in charge. Which one of thing is gonna? Act me immediately.

And I think it's also we pay for living in in a free country that will never be as secure as an authoritarian country like china, because we believe in free speech in the and freedom and know we're not gonna lock everything down, that the degree to which you'd have to lock things down. Course, if china can even do IT no.

OK no. But I mean, you can. There is a middle ground. You could you could first of all not have a law that says you back door into your entire telecoms.

I was in a bad start. Nineteen twenty four. I was a bad start.

Yeah and you can um you know invest in your infrastructure and maybe even a legislate to make sure that the infrastructure is more secure than the one that you have.

Now that you can't uh redirect the entirety of your profits uh to your to your a shareholders, you need to spend some of IT to upgrade your infrastructure and meet some cyber security standards at least because when I hear that the infrastructure hasn't been changed inside the seventies, i'm pretty sure there was some opportunity at some point to evolve IT a slowly to make IT a little bit more modern and secure. So I don't think it's just, oh, well, it's either that or you live in communese, china. I think there is a middle which by the way, is probably called europe. But you know .

there IT is well.

that's a very logical argument, Patrick K, I am sure legislature will take that under advisement and do the right thing.

But you know, okay, do do I get on my soul box now? Or do I wait a little bit?

Yes, I want to take a break, save the so box. I will mention when we're talking about seventies technology, there's something called the signaling system seven or ss seven, which is in our phones systems, is how the phones make calls. And IT has been IT is known to have serious flaws for more than twenty years.

And the problem is we can take IT out because everybody use its on your cell phone. It's on every telephonically system everywhere and it's flawed and we can't fix IT. Uh, and that's that.

And we've known about this for a long time. So this is in fact, this may well be how the chinese got in. I don't know how they are got in, but we've been talking about S S.

Seven and security now for almost as long. Security now has been going on and and I imagine there are Better systems. But this is that same problem of you don't want to break everything in order to make IT work Better, more security.

Let's take a little break. I'm sorry about that. I won't bring up anything that we can't fix h anymore.

Know when I read this headline like the worst hack in the nation history and nobody y's disagree with IT um I wonder why we don't talk more about IT. Maybe this is why there's not sorry, too bad, too bad, nothing we can do about dad. Hope you enjoy IT.

Enjoy your, enjoy your freedom.

We ve got a great panel. I think we have a lot to talk about and prepare yourselves because soap box from Patrick baja coming patch biga is here always a welcome guest as our westly falkner and the wonderful alex will help. Great to see you are all daddies, all daddy this week.

And because of IT, there are, in every case, there is some poor woman taking care of the kids right now. So we think we thank the mothers and the wives for making making this more in more ways than one. I think this episode this week, detect, brought you by Melissa, the trusted, a quality experts in one thousand nine hundred eighty five.

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You know you've got A A, A P I. They've got google and microsoft integration. That's it's everywhere.

Melissa. M I S S A docs slash twitter. We thank Melissa so much for supporting our shows for so many years. It's been a great relationship. Now, Patrick, if you want to get on a solo box now, you could, or if you want, I can give you another story that will trigger a apathetic fit, and you can get excited again. We got to build up to what I understand.

No, let's go with the other story. I'm sure .

I will get .

right hand.

So as you know, uh, google was sued by the department of justice, lost the judge, ruled against them in August, saying google illegally monopolized the search market and now it's up to the judge to decide on what remedies he he will rule on that will rule on that in the next when is that, alex? Is a couple of months away.

I think yeah a couple months away. I'm just going to my personal loads of the actual um uh yes so the DJ able file revised proposed final judgment march seventh OK. So expect a lot of back and forth between now and then so .

the dog is at this point lobbying and effect. The judge saying, well, you're honor what what google really should do and and coming up with remedies and of course, the judge, a picks and so forth. Some say this is just an negotiation to kind of head towards a consent decree between google and the dog.

The clock is ticking, I have to say, although it's unknown whether the new administration will be pro google or anti google, if you can go both ways. So so far the D O, J has come up with the most controversial proposal of all, saying google should be forced to sell crime. Oh, and why you're at the android OK, alex, okay, so so what do you .

think .

bloomberg says chromes worth twenty billion dollars? I don't think chromes worth a penny, but go tell us what you think.

So I just want to say on the android point, the proposed final judgment did say that chrome to be divested IT gave android a bit of a pass, but he did say that if google behaves poorly, then so the question that becomes, how much of this do they expect you? And I do think this is a barky in position. Yeah, I don't think chrome is gonna diversity because I think you're dead on IT doesn't have any value outside of being a search delivery and advertising delivery mechanism .

for that's the thing. I mean, I think the D O, J say let's cut off their legs by but every remedy they propose is worse for everybody else. For instance saying, don't pay apple twenty billion dollars .

here anymore so we I I talk to um J P H mez run. brave. Brave has their own brothers and also their own. So based .

on chromium.

wow, I mean, what you can do well.

that part of my part of my question is, isn't chrome open source? Can anybody make a con browser including Opera violle, brave arc and microsoft edge, all based on chrome? Yeah so what happens if google cells? What time is the open source project? What doesn't make any sense to me.

do you? The open source project, chromium dies if crime is divested from google?

No, right now, go head westerly. You probably know more about this than I do.

You cover a open source. So the new owner would be responsible for .

that open source and mostly google engineers, not all, but mostly google engineers.

And so the once again, if it's they need to know if if it's going be properly for them, it's depending on what their goals are, what they value. And you mentioned the other browsers that are based off chromium, including edge um that if if IT is sold off, crimea could could go close force um because IT does take maintenance .

to keep IT up the day but the second before they go close store westly doesn't somebody just fork IT fact people .

talking IT right now saying something yeah the the fork is going to be all the old stuff ah and are they going to do whether they want, but the number one browser will still be crown. And so the when they diverge in terms of the underlying make things and how things work, then the force themselves within render pages and not work the way that they are expecting the browser. And not only is chromium both based on these other um uh these other browsers, but chromium is used for testing a lot of like uh automation platforms that do web testing use chromium under or chrome to test websites, the capability to make sure that these are all automated.

let's say google cells from TM, whatever that thing is. And chromium is forked. Microsoft edge still gonna chrome go to be on the fork, right?

In fact, google the only the only hardware that google installed by default on crime, new chrome would be installed by default on, well, there wouldn't be any because well, who fences, who buys IT, right? Does microsoft buy IT then maybe IT is the number one brothers still because it's edge. If apple buys IT, maybe IT stays a dominant broster .

because is safari one preston by someone else I an that's not gonna en the all of these people are free download and already .

yeah you're okay. So it's how do google get to be dominant that's actually interesting.

Yeah you your acting like like there wasn't a different time when chrome wasn't the dominant browse first to be first of all, i'm not sure that this solution at this remedy is the smartest one, but let's set that aside for a second. Um the problem is not the dominance of chrome in this specific case, it's the link between chrome google.

So even if chrome stays dominant a without the links, the direct links to google, then you've achieve the thing you wanted to achieve which is uh reduce the dump that you know the uh uh cinna gy between the two, which gives google more power. And uh if IT doesn't, you know if IT becomes less relevant and somehow after a few years um it's not as powerful as IT is today, then IT gives the opportunity ity there's a vacuum and IT gives the opportunity is for another actor to take its place. Or maybe you have a more fragmented browser market, which has its own chAllenges of you see if you have different rendering engines.

It's so like we've seen this situation in the past, um IT is more chaotic for for websites, but it's not the end of the world. And again, the goal here is to server or to remove the uh advantage that google has by also own in rome. So all of this that your discussing is not untrue, but it's in this discussion.

It's a little bit besides the point. If you want to reduce google power, you have to find ways to do that. If you think google doesn't have too much power, you know that time they can keep IT everything they have.

But if you think they do, then you have to find ways to get them to collect less data, to have less a uh, different levels to influence the way the web works at SATA. And I think maybe a forcing them to divest chrome could lead to that outcome. If it's you have .

to think about the harm that will cause regular consumers, not just because what chrome right now is being used and all the benefits is going to go, I think we can agree on that. Um so they are running from me as a loss leader to get the data in this access. If this is sold to another company, another player, their incentive is not to just keep IT.

The wait is the incentive is now to find out how they can make that A S profit center for them. IT needs to be worth IT for them, which means that they are gonna to monodist that data. To other people other than google. So instead of all the information on to google bad, right, it's onna be like higher bitter.

How can we make the most use of the data and who can we now sell IT to? So it's either they'll the data or they're gonna find ways to make IT uh chrome plus now uh in order to like actually have secure browsing or to be able to turn off cookies. Uh you the regular crime, you can choose how much visibility, but now coron plus is the only one but that you can get these options to. So it's just the the consumer itself could be harmed by the the profit making that they don't need to make to make this uh, something that they continue.

First of all, I think there would be the solutions to those issues, which you are not going to like because you're american and you don't want the government to get involved in anything. The first step to my so box, leo um and secondly, um those are are uh uh again kind of uh besides the point but what you what can happen there is that crime because becomes less strong without the backing of google. I believe that is one of the outcomes.

And so you reinject a little bit of competition in the browser market market. I think that is not all everything you're all saying is true and not saying it's not true, obviously, you know but you're only seeing the downsides of those changes and there would be some upsides, not the least of which is Fostering competition, which is a basic tenant of uh you know capitalism and a healthy uh, free market currently is very difficult to compete with chrome, not because it's rome and it's everywhere. We've seen situations where there was one dominant browser before, but because google is pushing in so much. I I think how .

did I actually now that we're talking about IT, you can understand how the but the turny is default. People who use apple products or using safari, they're using web by IT. Is the engine safer until microsoft abandoned internet explored that was dominant because that's what everybody used windows was using.

If how did crime not? I mean, nearly. They have android. Are we counting android in the .

total install that that so no.

I yeah I mean, we are that certainly a big that you know half of the cell phone market in the U. S. And more than half eighty percent the rest the world, I don't understand.

So you're selling what are you selling? You're selling the name and the current code base. And perhaps you're .

selling the the installed that what you're the installed is your project.

You can't sell chromium. How do you sell chromium?

No one is thinking about chromium. You're talking code base.

You sell the .

installed base.

You sell the the installed base. You're saying, okay, so now you rome on counter, you're going to keep getting from, let's say, OpenAI by IT. Now it's gonna open a eyes chrome and you just assume because of the tourney that default in russia and anyway that nobody's going to say, I don't want to use OpenAI rome and what we will .

go to firefox. Es, no, I mean, some people might say that.

So damant is IT Better than anything else.

IT was much Better. Think IT still. Is that sorry, alex? you?

No, no, I was so much Better. People forget this. When chrome came out, they pitched as the fastest broker.

I know why google search is dominant because I was Better than any other search. So chrome also IT.

was Better. And then I got worse, much like google search, which you to be imaging cancer service now a way to shove more ads into my life um but I just the search of the proposed final judgment from the d uh, from the D O J, in this case zero meu m 8 s chrome。

Yeah, I almost wondered, do they know that there is a they is open what they're after, okay. So they're selling the now that helps petrick. So they're selling the installed base basically .

in the name but also the code. I mean, if they aren't selling the code as well, then they could say, oh yeah, we'll sell premium or chrome to open eye. Now we have chrome too and you can still get that um that a they would have to be banned for making browsers.

which that one of the concerns that they could be been, but only for a limited time so that google would ten years seat again.

The problem is not that google is making a browser. The the problem is that google's browser is dominant. So if you tell them, okay, you start again from scratch. And if you become dominant again, we'll address that at that point right?

So the P F J sus very specifically that um following its divestiture chrome google may not reach the browser market for five years. Five years is banned from owning or requiring any investment or interesting any searcher search sex provider that might do that. So so they have that written in, but IT doesn't solve any the issues we have about cho itself. But at least google couldn't just dive back .

in with for five years.

The recruiting in five .

years comes fast. The other issue a really is the search, right? Because so the promise that they are, they're too dominant search and IT seems like what the dog is trying to do is cut off the things that channel people in the search.

But what if instead they've talked about this too? There's y've force google the license search to say, okay, here's the, here's the index. A doctor go you a full access to this.

let's see much that seems like like a much more severe attack into the the core of what google business is. And I think that so much more serious concern if you do that currently, the the the the things that are being talked about, including, you know, let's say they can't pay apple to be the default, uh, search engine on IOS. I mean, obviously apple is not happy about not getting twenty billion euro h dollars.

but we put firefox at a business because the hundreds of millions of dollars they get yearly from google right now.

The only thinketh ping mozilla foundation maybe. IT. Well, possibly.

So that would, by the way, be the counter effect. That would be a negative consequence of this.

right? Well, maybe someone else would pay firefox to be the default or changing. Maybe the new crown owners, no, maybe being maybe microsoft are hugely off.

They don't have money.

Yeah, they didn't lay off people from the most from the firefox side. They laid off the mozilla foundation people, but still IT is they're on the edge and and their shares shrinking. And to me, that's terrible because the worst thing we could have is a browser monoculture like bananas.

but is not the search or even the browser, it's the ads, right? So if if the money is still coming into google through ads, the matter if other people have the may .

be google to sell ads that's causing them .

to have the chest full of money to be able for the people, that is, google.

if you take away the search out, take away most. And then what's like youtube and cloud? And youtube .

is just as I think you be force to sell youtube .

because I think that's a real conflict of interest. But OK more a pending. I feel a remedy to .

the my well, yeah, I don't i'm not judge, but my opinion the problem with google is that it's compromised its search results by having all these other sidelines like ad sales IT. IT is both the buyer at the seller in the markets ker in every bit of that. Owning youtube is another huge conflict of interest because their add results are inevitably gonna be full of youtube ads.

So their effect search results are promoting youtube. I mean, there's all sorts of conflicts of interest. Google started with a very pure excEllent search engine, which has gone downhill as IT slowly allowed these other interests to change its search results. Aren't think?

Yes, he does anyone deny that nothing.

but it's become very profitable as a result. This is the classic .

corridor.

Oh, please go head. I X, I. I just wanted to .

bring up one element from the proposed judged that we might all like, which is that I might require google to, quote, make its search index available. A marginal cost and on an ongoing basis, arrivals of potential rivals. So would that a late enough of the search advantage to make the ads point? Let's silent.

No.

I just you just said that that kills google because that's what that's google, right? There is the search results yeah well.

search index available.

a .

marginal cost design IT train on verse.

I I think the problem we're .

seeing here .

is that yeah, google is gotten too big and and and there's definitely any trust action here. It's almost impossible to know what the remedy is. Isn't that the case that there really is no fix for? This is just like the chinese acting is just basically it's like the microsoft doj case, the end of the nineties there .

I don't think there no I I don't think there's no remedy. Yeah there is no perfect remedy, but um there are I mean, google is a gargantuan business with a lot of different activities that all feed into one. And if you want to say, you know, I feel youtube is a slightly different issue of a different beast and maybe you could break them up. It's not impossible, but it's not IT doesn't address the same uh uh problem I feel but I not in google books, but I feel like chrome probably gives them a significant advantage as a search engine in because .

and or less than andre oh.

I don't know but ener IT as well. That's why they're both. You know even if and IT is less mention, it's it's also the same kind of thing. Um I don't think divesting google of chrome is as a ludicrous idea as people are saying IT is currently again, i'm not think it's perfect, but I think I could chip away a little bit at that power and uh and I don't think it's a ridiculous to .

considerate should any trust regulators consider the cost to users of a punishment to the company?

Yes, but not the not only the direct cost, as westly pointed out, there are obviously uh issues that this creates for the consumer. But I think the uh uh the the main problem of a monopoly and of anti competitive behavior is that a lot of the time IT does not all the time, but a lot of the time IT does benefit uh, the consumer to an extent.

But then IT also mother is competition, which would benefit the consumer hopefully, but in a less certain way, hopefully down the line. This is what this is what the united states was built on, competition, the free market, uh, freedom of enterprise know. And the problem of uh uh monopoly that we've seen in in the tech industry is that they make this a lot more difficult. So down the line, a more healthy competitive browser market could benefit the the consumer at one point. Um I think that's dead on.

but I think it's much easier to point out the near term uh, concrete harms versus understanding the long term benefits. This back to our climate change point about the hack story. The here's the thing that I wondering to your point of can be doing thing about this now that we've let these companies, the magnificent seven, as they're often called, to get so big and become so large and in meshed. I wonder if we've missed the boat on on, on reasonable antitrust activity, apart from fines.

And certainly, IT would have been Better to stop facebook from buying instagram. And what's would have been Better to stop google from buying youtube? I mean, I had. But the problem is we were in the the post regan era where any trust action was anemic and government wasn't willing to do that. Honestly.

I also think it's it's very easy to rewrite history now. You know instagram, yes, IT was probably a play to buy out to competitor the potential future .

competition to buy a snape chat they could. Instagram.

yeah. But you see the success now of that move. IT wasn't to give him back that I don't think there were a lot of competitors to instagram ment. Of course, with the power facebook IT grew, and in the know how, a facebook IT grew .

more courtly since regan. We haven't really done much to stop mergers right .

until lindon yeah until .

until lindon. And maybe I have a feeling this link icon interregnum is brief and we're going to go back to an era where companies are allowed to grow. So I I think of a possible .

solution for this discussion about rome and google. What if google is no longer allowed to have exclusive contracts with anyone, international or externally, which means that google crime could stay with google, but anything that has offered in crime, that advantages google crime, needs to offer IT to everyone else like that.

That's a good that's a good .

structural solution. Google needs to pay for whatever that they're doing for search results or but they have to make IT open and they have to be competitive to other other actors who want me and go in the search part of chrome. Also, you can brother .

baLance Green type west.

you know, in terms of the business, the pro needs Operate as a business internally to google, meaning that, uh, they can't just have their only client b google. They have to now be able to say, oh, you want the search box, who wants to buy IT? And how often do you want to show up? I just like the apple chose google to be the exclusive search box. Gool needed charts like pay crime to have that.

But that's the same as divesting, divesting IT, but making IT more difficult because they still have the offices inside goole, right? If he could Operate a separate identity.

IT changes the economics of why they do why they do chrome. If they're doing IT for the data, then they needed also then sell the data to all the other people who are interested in that data stream. If they're interested in placements that needs to be available for everyone else to be able to put IT in there. So IT changes the economics for running the browser to the point where if this is the best browser, IT still continue to continue do so. But the advantages of having the best browser in terms of the way that IT sends the text mentally back to someone, you have to be able to sell that and make that open if there's something that says, well, um we don't really want anyone else to have a delimitation, that means google can have IT either right? So it's either opening IT up to everyone or making IT so that no one else can have IT.

I think that would work. But it's the same as as making IT a separate entity, but making IT much more difficult to make sure they're doing that fairly because it's still inside. There's a Price and that's .

what microsoft that's why there was an omen zen inside microsoft after the consent decree with the dog. What is IT now twenty years ago um for a long time, these numbers they're watching and making sure that microsoft was a few deer. And I think you can look back at the doj action against microsoft and say that, that had actually the browser ballot aside, that had a positive outcome and microsoft became much less repetitious in the marketplace.

And IT did allow, Frankly, lab, google and other companies to rise up. So maybe that is that is a solution and maybe that's where they're headed. I've heard people say this is just all negotiation prior to a concert.

Cy, the real problem is this is going to go on for years. The new administration going to come in with different priorities that not that they like google. Um it's kind of hard to predict what the new ministration is going to do because A D J. Vance is a big fan of linea.

My .

favor. D, J.

J, D.

I want con. D, J, but anyway, fans, yeah, the V, P, P, V, I don't know, I don't know what his role being administration .

as IT is. Seems like .

he's fading fast to no.

I person, no, it's up two thousand twenty eight. I think they want to put advanced for eight. So I think that starts the liver here. Did anyone regard GLE response, by the way, to the D. O.

J? They said they're putting their thumb on the scale. Does anybody know what that means? Am I the only one old and love to know?

No, i've used, i've used actual physical scales, but I just like that. They said the D, O J had a chance to propose remedy related to the issue in this case. Instead, D O J chose to put a radical intervention ous agenda.

Vera, are americans and unlike you going to feel the corporate spittle of flying other mouths, they type this hate memory. You come for us. We are google bit.

I'm not, do you, that you will leave alone. We shall make your brother even your overtime. Ha ha.

That's why still have butchers who weigh your meat when you get that instead of just going in free rapped. That's what is that what you're doing? me?

yes. I what i'm saying is the the the scales have been found.

They are thumbing on the scales. Go head. I'm sorry.

there was a time not so long ago where when the conversation about we call them in france uh ga um which is google, apple, facebook, amazon and microsoft.

we call saying .

here yes, it's the equivalent the conversation was do they have so much power that they are unstoppable? You know, they have more power than governments and we cannot do anything about IT. That was maybe five years ago um and since then things like you know A R uh r GPT what's the GDP gdpr sorry.

yes.

I am using the french check on him and the D S A N D M A came .

in that's why I called D J VS. I was using the french initial solution.

Um so they they came into effect and they are far from perfect. I will be the first one to to a agree with everyone on that but IT did change the conversation IT did a show that if you have the political will to uh break up or not break up, but curb what is if essentially a series of monopoly um that are harmful to the the tenants of capitalism you know capitalism is that one of the the the main elements of IT is a fair market.

If you can't compete, if you can't, if you can't be an entrepreneur and have enterprise, you're not in a in in a proper capitalistic market and the entity that is supposed to help when one of the private enterprises a masses too much power is the government. There is no one else. There is no one else to um help out there.

And I feel like a lot of the conversation in the U. S. Is A A lot of people going like, oh, somebody, you should do something and then you're like, yes, there's someone that is there to do something oh, but not you. It's like, you know that story, this is my sol box, you know.

story that story .

of the guy, the religious person whose stuck on the roof in a flood. Yes, and there is a boat that chose up and um he's you all know the story, right? The boat chose up and he's like all you can come with us is like, no, no, no, the lord will save me and the boat goes away and then there's a helicopter and like, no, no, no.

In the end, he rounds and he goes to the party gate and he means god, and he's like, what did you were support to take me got is like, I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter. what? What the help? And, and and so I feel like a lot of this is that and there is an entity which is whose role is to do that and when they try to its a cell fulfilling profit, you say no, you shouldn't do IT. No, you're not able to do IT because you focus on the issues of what the remedies are proposals are, which of course there are uh but the alternative is that these monopolists monopolistic companies are a massing more power and nothing is stopping them and the market is not fair. Um so as an active description.

yes but this is why .

I I wrote an essay back and early to twenty three entitled if you like startups, you should love the anti trust .

because I the point orts innovation.

the free market that is not ruled by three people will be more competitive dynamic over the long term, even back our short term launch m economy there will be in aie in in the near term. So pat, I I had to say hard degree didn't expect to hear that from our resident frenchman today coming from the E.

U. Everybody know from so it's okay.

No, i'm very i'm considered a horrible capital alist in in france.

I'm sure you are.

but I sense a deep friendship growing, alex. We agree on a lot of things. I know.

I know a deep capital in france means that you're only slightly left in the next states.

probably far to the left in the but you know I mean, this situation currently that we have with these uh, big monopoly is advantages to a lot of us. I'm not saying you I do love having the ease of use of IOS. I think having a uh, forced opening of the U S.

So that you can install a lot of different third party apps or even APP stores makes the experience worse. I think the user experience is worse. And I understand that I will not happy about IT. But the the the flip side of that is that you force a little bit of competition into that dominant platform is IT going to succeed? I don't know. Maybe not maybe it's just going to in in chat fy everything even more, but you need to try and force IT by legislation when the market is is not working because one company was too successful and they were very successful because they offered superior product in some uh uh ways that some customers wanted. Um IT doesn't mean that it's not a problem now that they've achieved, uh someone should do something .

that we can do is IT is the um the the the econic economics of enforcement. So the downside of doing the wrong thing needs to override the the the upside of doing the wrong thing. And so even though that we have these laws, since they are not enforced equally or the downside does not override the upside meeting, that they can still be massively profitable or they can still take the money off the top and just pay the fine as attacks until that system in terms of really enforcing um in making the downside economics uh a motivator for not doing the wrong thing, no matter what legislation sed, as long as the penalties don't await the advantages .

that will still continue. Well in in u the penalties do over. They are companions are like seven percent of global income maximum. Of course, no one's ever going to enforce IT that much. But IT scares them because IT is a lot of money.

And the main part, the most important part is they can't afford to not Operate in the u because IT doesn't make them a lot of money, right? It's four hundred and fifty million customers or potential customers. So they have to Operate in the, so they have to follow E.

U. rules. And I love that they're making a lot of money. Again, capitalism is awesome.

It's given us a lot of goal, soft and a lot of uh, uh, uh, productivity and and well being. But at some point, you need to protect capitalism. Yes.

but I think is really interesting the way you set that up at IT because you're essentially saying that a europe will show a different way to approach digital regulation, antitrust and innovation because they're so important economically, they can have their own enorme that are they kind of like force onto us tech companies to some degree.

What's interesting about that is it's essential argument for a more dynamic europe because the stronger economic europe is, the more influence will have. Go how much you can help us with our antitrust ort because we don't pass legislation in this country anymore so we can't really do anything. So I think of what i'm saying this, can you fix the european economy, bring less chaos?

We have been relying on GDP r on europe for at least for privacy regulations. Maybe just you know, there is also a case to be made that is a certain amount of stagnation that happens in europe a because IT doesn't have the go go mentality, the free feral capitalism the united states has. You don't have as many startups, you don't have as much innovation, um you don't have the vegetable capital infrastructure that we have in the united states.

right? absolutely. And I would even go, father, I would say that if we did have as dynamic started ethos as you guys do in the U S, maybe there would be too much lobbying for us to, uh, pass those laws that I just talked about.

Maybe IT wouldn't be possible. So you know, the world is what IT is. IT is, you know, we have to do the best we can with what we have. And the fact that we are so crappy making billion dollar uh, uh, companies or thousands of millions of dollar companies means that we can enact those laws. And maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Job or throw stuff up against the walls, your jo B2Clean.

I don't think that. I don't think that is being fair to europe. So i'm going to go and to get on my .

american support here, you got to a work and you gotto charge your jewel. So hold on, we got to take a break. But I do want to give you a plug.

Mister alex will home, because you did write this article in your newsletter, which everyone should subscribe to cautious optimism dtt news, if you like a as starves, you should love any trust. This is your bread and butter now, right? This this is you've left tech runge you you're now on your own.

Uh, yes. So I run, this is my blog. I had now have a corporation with a friend of, mind you.

s corp. It's an L L, C O.

We have corporate bank accounts now. So good fuel. It's, you know what you don't have when you work for yourself for a one k metric. Patric, that's like social .

insurance over I know we do that for loye, but we don't .

do for ourselves.

No, just can I advise you something Anthony Nelson, who has filling in for any do guiles toy's or technical director and uh, producer, cover your ears. You don't want .

any taking and yet .

don't want employees, alex, whatever you do, no employees. okay. I'm just saying .

i've been a manager enough time to not want to do that again. And the whole idea is to do more independent work verses forced corporate works.

Look, journalism is struggling right now and where we're all trying to find new ways to succeed in a market that is completely disintegrating. So yeah, I I hour you for doing that. That's great very much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well.

you know it's pretty much whose on these shows these days, you guys are all independent and and and I think that that's really the future. But the problem is you ve got to eat you to faith a rent and IT could be very chAllenging. IT be very difficult. So keep up the good work out and everybody support. Alex is a great writer and IT has lots of insight, causes optimism.

Dot news, there you go, little heart go charge dual there at this episode of this week in tech brought you, he thought, i'm not joke my here he goes, my shop fight okay, you put your headphones back on and and actually in all serious things, I love our employees. I really do. And starting a small business is actually a great thing.

It's been twenty years now, are twenty th anniversary next year in April, and it's been an amazing ride. When you think about starting a business, small business, you might think, where does the infrastructure come from? You you want to build IT all yourself.

Maybe not when you think about the businesses who started small, but who sales like all birds and more in them right now or in ticket, I wear on tickets all the time. If you think about an innovative product, a progressive brand, great marketing, right? But the key, and take IT, for me, the often overlook secret to any small business, is the businesses behind the business.

For instance, I think about my son saw hank, who has a business right selling salt, soon to be selling pickles. Um how do you get started when you're just some guy on tiktok on instagram, you're doing some cooking shop? Fy, that's the secret for shoppers.

The secret is making IT easy to buy. It's it's making buying simple for millions of businesses that businesses sharp. Fy, yeah, love that sound.

Nobody does sales Better than shop ify home of the number one check out on the planet. And yes, soul hank outcome, use the shop. Fy, shop is amazing and not so secret.

Secret was shopping that boosts conversions up to fifty percent. That's incredible. That means far fewer cards going abandoned, way more sales being made. Love that sound.

So if you're growing your business, your commerce platform Better be ready to sell wherever your customers are, whether they're scrolling or strolling on the web in your store in their feet and everywhere in between businesses that sell more cell on shop fy, by the way, sell. Hank is opening his first brick modesty in new york city early next year. And again, thank you shop fy, for making that possible.

Upgrade your business, get the same. Check out that all birds uses sign up for your one dollar per month, one dollar per month trial period. That's awesome. At shop fy dog comes slashed with IT that's all lower case S H O P I F Y shop fight that com slash to IT to upgrade you shop fied that comes like twit one more time yeah that's that's the sound of money come in in um it's really both my kids you shop fy for their online stores. It's really yeah it's and someday your kids will too yeah you guys if if you're lucky.

I would also of an economy by the time my kids are. Yeah, I know how .

that feels. I know, I know it's little good. You know, science fiction always talks about so much transition, talks about a future where corporations run the world, right?

Where conglomerate the world. And IT feels like maybe those sipi authors had an insight that we're kind ahead in that direction. Is that a bad thing? A good thing? I feel like democracy start to is IT worse. yeah. He feels like democracy is starting to feel a little bit, though I don't know what we do.

Westly you not hear my my sobs segment?

Oh yeah, you all right. Okay, let's sit. Moving on windows three sixty five link.

Microsoft is now selling a three hundred fifty dollar computer that streams windows from the cloud. That's put an interesting solution to a security and endless security nightmare, right? Microsoft keeps IT up to date.

It's sand boxed. You're not running when three, two locally. It's all run in a protected environment in the cloud.

Friendless compact. And here's the interesting thing, and I don't know exactly how is everything these are copilot pcs as well. So microsoft has been selling this concept of copilot plus.

You're seeing the ads for IT now smarter, the running a snapdragon, not until recall is coming out. Now it's finally available to the windows insiders in beta. A I is everywhere.

Copy is everywhere. Is this is this an interesting movie? Is this mean the the the test up PC ea really is dead and that everything will be streaming in the future?

Um how old is that born on the show today? Who is? Who is the a oldest persons?

You will know that I think you know that .

look at here, I not, I once got trouble for age, so I learned my lesson little. How many times have we have the thin client conversation?

Oh yeah, it's funny. Because our good friend gene Smith ran was CEO of a company that Larry ellison of oracle had founded. Think he was called, think IT was exactly that.

I was client, thin PC client. The problem was the network isn't wasn't advanced enough. This is thirty years ago. IT is now isn't IT.

yeah. And the difference because you mean I think earlier than client, a potential moments and now is the fact that a lot of A I processing just can be done, I think, on device. And I know that the copy plus P S have a snapp jack and chips and they can do some on device air processing, but even apples, blaze, iphone, send some of their air quies to the secure computing vironment. So my thought is that made me, actually, is the time for a linux on the dusk shop. But the window is equivalent, which is then clients becoming mainstream.

I surprised that this doesn't happen sooner. It's still gonna a problem because microsoft charges a little too much. I think for the windows in the cloud, it's pretty expensive. I can't remember what I was, but IT was IT was over one hundred dollars a month. IT was a very expensive light proposition.

That's crazy. What are they on a well.

I mean, I think everybody would .

run IT if you could get a three and fifty dollar computer that's specially a crime book isn't and have all the work be done in the cloud.

One issue is that a chrome you can run off line um this one and you start you store things locally. And this has like somewhat uh like some processors, some some storage and uh IT also has RAM, but it's really busy. But IT also is not doesn't see my it's optimize .

decide to be a desktop. It's really designed to be a it's .

almost just in old hardware to be able to do this, but there's no specific acceleration hardware compression would expect. But for the transmission though, to make those package go, the hardwork celerity in terms of the compression of the the packets doesn't feel like IT to built into this. So that's one thing that I like.

Why is IT why why do you need eight gigs around for this? Um I just a rest very pipe the radically could could run they're asking for. So i'm guessing the the three forty nine is to cover the cost of maintenance and replacement, also should cost three sixty five.

That's a oh yeah, it's microsoft three sixty five and their charges three ninety five good lord, they need to hire us. Yes, it's so.

But the cost is what is this for in in terms of what makes this harder are unique and that they're charging so much for IT, they they're not releasing too much of the spects.

But if if this is also be cloud connected, they really should talk more about security, talk more about the, the, the type of O S that's built into at the type of secure connections that I can establish, but the the oppositions to make sure those connections stable um or that the compression is highly optimize for talking to the server specifically so that when it's connected that I can get an advantage even on a slower connection. Is there heartbeat that's created so that even if the O S is not local still, they can do some things in terms of the a ecri zone that the death. So you're also keep setting all in from some a bit.

You used to work and I bem in you.

Now I A thing. Now I remember that's what they should be talking about, why to buy this box and and why this would be the best thing because it's hardware wise made to work on the service side to make sure that you get the optimal experience.

You know, the problem I have is i'm answering all those questions in my head like this is what I would say this is what I would do. And you're right, microsoft has dropped the ball on this since they started offering windows in the cloud. They have IT almost as if they don't want to IT feels like to me this should be the future of windows yeah should be.

It's A A path of moving into A A hundred percent subscription for windows. Never buy IT.

just subscribe. They want. No, that's what they want. That's what they've always wanted.

right? I think that the concept of cloud streaming isn't ready for main.

We do IT for gaming. Don't well.

not as the main device. I think some people use IT, some people use IT, uh, a lot. But they're also avid gamers that have local system as well. Um I I mean there are some stadium fan people who are gonna get on .

my case as is the system yeah .

luna luna works well. Um but I think for computer work, as for video games at this point and for the foreseeable val future, it's a technology that is a side thing for heavy users. And I don't see someone betting all of their or or you know committing entirely to only uh, a cloud system.

And so I think the idea of the link what is the windows three sixty five link is appealing until you get into the new tiggity and find all the cases where IT will create issues for you at which once you're like, oh, well, I would at least need IT like a lap also and if you have a laptop and you don't need that thing, I think we're not in in the situation. Maybe IT welcome, maybe IT want. But I think at this point, not viable as your only, uh, solution.

Would you guys related to this? They've announced that you can now install recall, which was microsoft solution, was widely exploration by by security experts that records every few seconds a shot of your screen, saves IT index, is that using a variety of different AI models, so does OCR on the analysis, the images, and then makes IT searchable. Experts said, good, that's great.

You're onna create a march ball of information on everybody's computer that hackers who just can't wait to get a hold of microsoft responsible. Well, we get all this security, and I think they probably reach short a lot of people. They are rolling IT out now to windows insiders, uh, westly, are you going to install at the minute you is available?

A hundred percent. I mean, if someone has local access system, thank you.

Thank you. At last, someone tell us the truth. I mean, initially, when they first rolled IT out or testing IT, the security was a isma, which was the database was unencrypted. IT was like horrendous. But if it's it's uh uh uh secured properly, then anything that I can give away if someone can get to IT, you're in trouble anyways.

China has IT already right? I think please.

we are from the first part of the show.

So um you like the idea of having like searching everything you've ever done.

I have a horribly memory. And if this can help me, what yes, I why won't I do this? I was on the computer when I found the information.

The information is cash somewhere in a browser sort in the directory. It's, it's, it's already there. The is, like I said, if if someone had local access, they would be able to find this originally anyway. So this makes IT easy for me to find. So yes, yeah, i'm sure like china is able to, like, give me a copy of my backup, if as where that be great but you're an advocate.

I don't think i'm saying a thinking out of school, but I say you're an advocate for neurodiversity um and this that somebody I think would be very interested in these people who have A D D issues or are this lexical or can't remember things or or see .

into the quarter. And you have to do your own review and you have to say, like, what do I do .

like like galaxy, his own boss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did I do? What was that received? Was a lot of Victoria that, yes.

finally, that's not that's not lucrative yet. I paid no money from Victoria, but I will say fact made by this offer, which is polish, I believe, which is in europe. So shot on european treasurers. O .

violin is a swedish, yes.

and spotify is is .

swedish. They are sub, there are myfanwy .

ah yes which is a very good it's very.

very, I think, common now amongst .

you say me. Isn't the isn't that the wind that drove and go crazy?

no. Well.

maybe I think there are simple things that you have to go crazy.

but it's kind of wind in the south of france. Yes, sorry. I'm just saying .

that people I grew up in the toby heath post to nine eleven amErica of freedom fries and the french are are Jacobs and he was wrong and it's wrong. wrong. Now, yes, I think you should get them more credit for trying something different other than let's get elon mask all the money and hope IT works.

How do we get friends? Wait a minute. I'm sorry, i'm confused .

because before the last ad brick, I was going to advocate for european computer in the division.

said, no break and I and we didn't.

oh sorry, you go. I was .

gna say, with the people leaving x now they have a lot of competition with blue sky threads and magan. It's hard to find where you posted something or where you saw something. So if I had to I so now to bring you .

back around.

And and even though we do have a lot of uh, theoretical and academic expertise and excEllence, we do not have you know we're not the the continent that birthed any of the fans or you know any of those. But recall, I would install in a heart beat as well. I think this is a really interesting use of A I because you know chat bots are cute.

But the really interesting a implementations are when you put these. Technologies to work for the consumer, for the user, and taking a photo of a screen shot of your a computer every few seconds so you can then feed IT to A I N R G your, your, uh, you know, your system into being useful for you is a really clever idea. And there are none of those um but I think ultimately and there are gonna be edge cases where you know someone else use your computer to do something and information is gone to come out in those searches and is going to be like all security uh uh, flaw in that thing. If your co worker types es something on your computer, yes, that is going to exist. But I think the benefits for user usability are gonna far outweighs .

those issues ahead.

Alex.

are you going to .

use recall are in, are you in favor?

Oh yeah, told. I I just think I think I think it's worth. I I want .

something a lot more. You know, that's what I was going to say. It's not enough. IT should be on all .

my devices because I be looking to other time. Yeah syrian alex a should index everything you say all the time.

Gordon bell, who was one of the original digital equipment genius a his wife Green bell got a severe alzheimer. She's passed if actually he's just passed a couple of months ago um and he was very keenly aware of losing memories and he wore when I met him, he wars wear in a camera around is next many three years ago recording steals from his life he had this whole concept of you want to record everything that happens to you this was so far ahead of time. There was no way to analyze and no way to get.

We have A I like we have today, we don't have as didn't have as much storage and all, all of that. But now we can do that. And I want to do that. I think it's a great idea I would record every moment because I know at some point I will lose my mind, and then I will be able to relive those moments. I'll be able to ask questions of that data, uh, one of my children's name names, again, things like that, that would be very useful, especially through time, is some sort of, yeah do that, T J. Guy, you believe I think you're dead on and the .

thing that I want more than anything else is a AI that's maybe this is instance of a model person that's .

it's going to happen isn't IT yes.

because it's can be trained on your life, yes, but but I needed to be on my IOS device and my gaming P, C. And my imac. And this, you know, over this is back. And I am just terrified that we're going to end up with O S segregated personal A I agents to which all company .

everything .

total recall yeah or either .

one company buys everything or you force open the platforms and allow access deeper access to the OS, including IOS uh so that competitors can offer services like these and have those um services on every device circles.

Round of the google problem. This is how you solve IT. You make everybody license their knowledge. But how do we solve the security problem?

No, that's so everyone has everything. There is no security that's IT. We're done.

That's what I know. I mean, what's wrong with tiktok? So what if china knows where I am, right?

Oh, do you serious question or rtp ical question?

serious?

okay. So my my take on tiktok is that we should not allow a different country to steer our less informed population.

And I are doing anything on facebook. And ex, what are you talking? They are doing that.

Russia has a propaganda channel that's on cable called R. T. What are you talking about?

You know, it's not a, the answer is not. What are you talking about? The answer is you do something about those two and rt has been banned. I don't know what happened in the us, but IT has been banned in europe because IT is a propaganda machine from a state that we are kind of actively at all with and that is viewing this information.

Um the case of x is kind of a little bit peculiar because it's been used in certain ways, but IT is still uh, controlled by an american citizen, right? So that does change things. And I do understand I don't think now tiktok is probably not to be done, but the concern that the algorithm is so powerful and could be altered or directed by a foreign entity, not even adversary, like you've said on this show multiple times, traditional media does have rules for those specific cases. Uh, foreign h citizens cannot own uh, some of the traditional media.

why? Because the power of information is great and you don't want that influence to be possible. I don't understand why people say, oh, but for tiktok is different. I think the same argument can be made and it's valid.

I agree with that. And I think the point that were making about R T on another platform, so for example, R T on youtube, I think that's very different because one is the application layer of digital media and one is the root layer. So the algorithm is what I think steers the whole ship.

And having that, having the rudder of what most people think because I want you to tiktok, except for me in the hands of a company that is co owned literally by the chinese company party, is a mistake and I just I find a very odd that uh uh people that I talk to on the business side kind of fomenting, complaining about capitalism and so forth. But I like, now this is, this is international politics. This is, this is geopolitics. This is different, not just the profit motive that matters here.

right? Let's take a break. Good stuff. You guys are changing my mind as we speak. I'm gonna get recall on all my devices. I'm going to send the information to china, but I am not gonna use tiktok.

H, I used stick tok.

I used stick tok. Yeah, I like to do. I love.

you know, the theoretical problem.

Does I like you, miss, and something great, you should just try tiktok. No.

my my friend iron.

So that's really the best thing about took to like the algorithm super good. And IT knows what you see and IT when will look at. But my son got his business started on tiktok.

All hands, you know, has done very two and half million followers of tiktok, moved most of them. The instagram is doing youtube shorts. Just put out, I shown you as cookbook lately.

Just put out a cookbook is the best selling cookbook in the world. For one week, we hit the york times best selling yeah and now he's opened and soul hanks delhi in in, in new york city. So I thank you.

Tiktok, I know, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe i'm going to find out that my son is a chinese spy. I don't know. But for now, well, actually what they the real .

connection here, lio, is because your son used sick tok and help me grit further into the american psyche. IT boosted the company's business, which means that bite dance is worth more, which means that jeff, yes, had more money as a bite dance c investor to give the trump campaign getting back in the office. So essentially .

it's that was a roller .

coaster right from one. So don't buy salt him.

No, no.

that's no, no. He's back on instagram now and youtube.

He's back on good .

american right now.

We are streaming literally right now on tiktok. I hope you don't mind that. Did you know that? Never see that.

Should I have told you? We stream now in eight different platforms. We stream in discord for our club members.

Hello, club members. Thank you for your support. We stream on youtube.

Thank you google for your support. We stream on twitch, thank you, amazon for your support. We stream on linked in, thank you.

Read for your support. Microsoft, I guess. So that's that.

But we're the fangs here. We stream on facebook, there's meta. Thank you facebook.

We stream on a tiktok, we stream on eggs. Thank you, elon, and we stream on kick. I don't know who to thank for that.

Yeah, that one i'm not sure. Is .

there .

one team? Kick smart?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Arrive Normal. Anyway, thank you to all of our streaming partners. Thank you mostly to our club members who make make all of that possible if you're not a member of the club and you want some of the exclusion access to exclusive h shows mike is ted is craft in corner of got Stacy book club coming up our photo segment with Chris k quarters going to do an hour with is talking about photography, reviewing viewer photos as well. Lots of stuff coming up.

I hope you will join the clu B2Be par t of tha t, to enter the club to distort and to get add three versions of all the shows effect. If you're not watching this live, if you're watching this recorded, you're not seeing this ad. If you're club excuse if you're club member, seven bucks a month, that's all IT costs a doesn't go into my pocket IT goes to support our many wonderful employees like Anthony uh and uh honestly, it's what's keeps us a float.

So uh, please consider a tweet that TV slash club to join a club to IT. There are some other benefits. By the way, this is a lot of people who take the adventure of the two week free trial offer, which is great.

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Thank you. Club to IT members to with that TV slash club twitter hello dog in is watching on x hello, there's somebody watching on cake kick right now. Casino hi casino um I can see all the people watching on all the platforms.

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There is no reason, there is no reason for people to pay millions of dollars to brand somewhere hackers. When then we'll protect your thing that com. Ah oh, his roman in his hands together. Are you excited about something you want to dig into a story? Alex wilhelm, is there's something you see that you go I can't wait to shout down on this fine news story or no.

I was so excited to be here. I do. I just like to this .

shows some love. Yeah you podcast are like.

you know, stressed and stuff, but twit is just like that feels like hanging on the backyard.

You do you still do this.

We can start up. Yeah yeah cost.

That's a great show. And you talk to really important people on that show.

Yeah, it's been interesting to be Jason's khost as american politics has changed. I wonder.

yeah as he disappear .

a lot uh, no. I mean, he he, I I have only so much visibility into his schedule and so forth because we just can do the show together. But i've never had a coworker who had friends who .

were so old run into the country. No kidding. Well, he does the all in the cast with David sex .

I do not approve of.

Well, Jason's politics, I suspect, of swan a little. Of course he he's best buddy to the president's elects best, right? yeah.

Mask Jason into his credit while his other, all in all, fear into the trumps.

Dle.

o yeah, so I I would give an actual blow points for pushing off pressure room with friends, I would think, for staying independent.

Magine, yeah, you know.

politics and technology do seem to be right now and extricate liked, which is unfortunate .

because I honestly don't want to talk about politics at all anymore, feel like that that show is over. But maybe not because you're right. I mean, they half the things that you talked about .

here have a political element. Well.

the fcc is political, the, the, the hacks are political. Everything is in policy because this policy is, I got here.

you know, I read a brand in cars chapter in the twenty twenty five projects, twenty twenty five document. And actually I had to agree with like a lot of the things he said was really frustrated me. Um I didn't want to agree, but let me give you some of the things that a Brandon car who will be the chairman of the fcc, he's bit a commissioner for a long time.

Um he is one of a number of project twenty twenty five contributions joining the trumpet administration. Um he wants to reign big tech. He says that the meta alphabet use content moderation techniques, including shadow banning and the motivation to sensor conservatives on their platforms without offering detailed reasoning for their motives.

Now I understand that that is a stocking horse for the right wing. However, like you know, I kind of like his his idea of saying that there should be a transparent appeals process so that if users accounts are being demobilized or band, they can ask why and they can appeal IT. I think that's not a bad idea. You agree.

depend hasn't on the level of information of the party, like for instance, if they harassing someone.

yes.

so doing that, this person reported .

you are that potentially problem .

or endanger? So there there should be some level of transparency, some level of appeal, right? But there's also we've seen um with open comments or uh writing concious people that that itself, like the appeals process can be spammed as well.

So there's there's there's there's other problems related to that Mandatory that they can and is one thing Mandatory how they do IT is another. So I I agree that there should be one, but the heavy hand of how they can do IT and what data is shared with them is the the sticky point where in some cases, that makes sense and some IT doesn't. So a blanket Mandate maybe even though on its face sounds great, but a if IT may not make sense in all cases and just the the one size, it's all all kind of approach. This is something that doesn't sound like maybe a strong recommendation, but a Mandate is different.

Fcc has no, by the way, I don't think has any a Mandate to deal with this at all. This would have to come from congress.

right? Especially after the several difference and .

writing overcome yeah, the fcc doesn't regulate internet traffic at all. So but he does think section to thirty needs to be modified. I disagree with him on that point. Yeah no, I think that's .

the that's the issue even with what he's saying, what you are managing ing earlier about the information for people who are uh uh you don't band or moderated, which taken an isolation I believe is a good you know uh uh seems like a good policy.

It's good intent like you should have more transparency on why like we've all had some experience with a platform that has imposed penalty on us and like why what happened? How do I get in touch with a real human about something like that? So in isolation, that's good.

The problem is this, uh, uh, declaration of intent from him is aligned with uh, uh, uh, desire from the political, from the right, to essentially be allowed to not be moderated, which is related to the section to thirty thing, which I think is a problem. Uh, the reason, and we've seen you know, uh, academic studies on this multiple times, the reason the right is more moderated then, uh, the left is that they say things that are more subject to moderation. And the left in in, you know and i'm not going going to go in to specifics because the people who are for IT understanding, the people who are against this or on the right don't wanted hear IT. But the the the the reality of IT is that the right is now on a war path to say you are not allowed to moderate anything. We say you are not allowed to label uh this information or misinformation uh and and I think that's detrimental to uh the democratic process, which requires the the citizens to be well informed and I think that's a big problem.

And think about that, you run your own method on server. You don't allow everyone to do, every person that you don't allow or get cooked off. What if they wanted to do in a process, right? If it's like.

no, I shut down the .

server exactly right? So it's prohibitive for you. So that's why the one one size fits all for everyone doesn't necessarily work and could be detrimental to you even being able to continue.

I wonder how elan would feel about this because IT cuts both ways. Uh, you know, elan may not want to reveal why he's shadow band. Quite a few people actually on on x, so cuts both ways.

All right, let's throw that one out. How about this one car takes a hard line against chinese tech companies, he says, as we know, they're filling ated with a ccp. They are threats to national security support spanning tiktok because IT provides beijing with an opportunity to run a foreign fluence campaign in the us. He supports, as we mentioned earlier, increased federal funding to a rip and replace program for network infrastructure containing and secure chinese technologies, and he's in favor of closing loopholes and further regulating chinese tech firms to prevent them from accessing and american markets.

Yeah, I know the administration has been yelling for more regulation, right?

That's been is that I ironic that used to be brag's republicans wanted government out everything.

This is quite the opposite. Chinese technology is not specific .

note um point and I also have to .

define iwan as china and think about the implications there. Um so if if that that means that I would have to be funded, right, you would have to pay for all of this. And this is our we sending money to private companies to find to buy chips here that don't exist to replace these chips that they want to replace. There's there's no step two that makes sense. You get rid of this, you stop IT then right?

What about this one? Okay, you're right. I don't like this guy anymore. He says he wants a series of moves to allow the private sector to develop network infrastructure. He specifically mentions the on starlink, which, by the way, we use this back up here last week because of the heavy rains in northern california. Comcast went out, and I was using starling for show on wednesday, I for this week, and google, so I got, elon is on my roof right now, aiming, aiming the satellite. He does say the fcc should increase th Epace o f r eviews a nd a pprove s atellite l aunch a pplications f or b oth s tarlink a nd a mazon's v acant c aper, which is I don't even think out yet.

but the thing is that we have have been slowing IT down. You they supply that work, get reviewed. How many of those starlink satellite are in orbit right now, right? IT hasn't been is they haven't been held up by regulations, is just making sure they're safe.

They can do orbit all that stuff. There is a lot to do. How do you make that faster unless you skip all the safety checks? What that sounds like an an elan thing to do.

If you can pinpoint why they have been going so low. Do we need more staff? Do we need Better ways of handling and modeling the data to make sure it's safe? There's all of that can be done without, uh, a Mandate externally in terms of getting rid ful regulations.

IT is pretty ironic that he believes federal government to take a more hands off approach to allow the private sector to innovate and compete in the communication sector. Except for you guys that are shadow banning conservatives, know you guys we're going put ends on you.

Speaking of ironies, that fears a free speech argument to be made, that corporations being allowed to moderate as they want their own platforms is a form of speech. And so by telling them what they can't do, there is speech in fringe is essentially so people can post but but had nac means on your on X, I mean it's just blows on mind.

I I would argue I mean, I think um this would not I have no idea, but I think he would not pass the supreme court test because companies have a right to speech as well according to right first.

That's right.

Yeah I would suspect IT wouldn't work out, but they've been trying you know states have been trying to uh put this into into place and I suspect it's going that were gonna see IT happening. Um I mean the the legislation might go uh um might be voted in and we'll see if IT serves chAllenges.

Supreme court's first decision speaking, the supreme court came out on friday dismissing facebook's appeal. A lower court had revived a shareholder lawsuit. Shareholders upset that cambridge jan aletha got facebook user data and sued, supreme court said did not give them searching so they said, basically, we're not going, no, we're not going to get involved.

Uh, the decision the lower court made was accurate a, the U. S. Court of appeals for the night circuit ruled in favor of a class action .

lawsuit from facebook.

Sure, for this case, IT makes sense to me. That met is right. Actually looking at this, what they said is that the cambridge on liberal like release was, let's say, A A previous year than three years later.

That's when I was used for the trump campaign and that hurt the shareholders. The release was public information at the time where IT was then used and then politicized and IT was in the news during the trump win. So they disclose that data.

What they didn't say. They give a forecasts of saying how could be used in the future to be detrimental. There's no way that have a Christmas.

And if they were trying, if they needed to say every different way that things could go in the future, that could hurt them. That doesn't really make sense. That doesn't really help with uh, shareholders making adequate judged about what they invest in, what problems can happen in the future. So being able to predict the future should not be a crime.

especially if you do IT right. Um spring court also getting involved in the fate of america's low income broadband fund. They said the fcc, this is a since chavez ah the chavez run ruling the fcc overstepped its a bounds in creating this sub badman subway program, the universal service fund which probably noticed on your phone bill little dying for that that money has been going to provide.

Internet connectivity to a low income of people in rural areas that are underserved. I don't know. I like this fun, but I think that maybe this is up. They're that this is something congress should have done, not the fcc. Of course, the people going are the phone companies who don't want to be responsible, and I want to take them, you know, I have to pay this fund. What do you think?

I think we don't understand how much of the U. S. Is going to change.

Now this just the beginning. yes.

So as first, because of the do administration coming in, I presume the'd have less interesting keeping up certain things that might now be a suspect. I just think it's pretty sad that as a nation, we pay a tiny tax to help other people access the internet. And the moment we can tear that down, IT appears that we're going to I sometimes I I bemoin the fact that we don't seem to have a lot of productive will help one another, even though motta, I am a capitalist. I just, I don't know why capitals and can't have a heart.

This has been going on for decades. This universal service fund.

I could talk about tales care I won't um but it's not even about having a heart. I think obviously that's that's part of the uh the question but it's about infrastructure. You need a decent infrastructure in your country, in the entire country uh, in order for you to run properly or you actually this in franchise part of IT. And there have been a programs infrastructure programs in the us.

That were you know ambitious and they weren't incompatible with the spirit of enterprise and capitalism you know this is uh um I wouldn't go so far to say perversion, but a new idea that you can do anything that uh uh is in the realm of gathering resources from everyone to do something that individual actors can do on their own. Um I don't know if in this case you know maybe IT wasn't the fcc's role, maybe IT should have been congress or but it's a general IT seems to be a general uh, trend that you know that goes in that direction. And I think it's not just detrimental or you know you could argue about the morals of IT, but I think infrastructure in the country is important.

You can talk about transform. You could talk about uh, electricity. The internet is part of that. Uh, and you need good internet for the economy. For the economy.

It's not just about, you know google doing this and apple doing that and silicon valley doing startups. It's about you being able to uh get netflix in your backwater, you know play part of your county in that state. It's about your a business being able to charge with this new tool from whatever company uh uh does with the cash register connected to the internet. It's about important self.

Yeah so what but what if we stopped trying to put wires in the ground when we have sad ly? Internet is now faster because you started that rif with it's about infrastructure. And I think that's up until starlit, a very solar point.

We had to go and put wires on the ground. Lao made a point that is the show on starting that's all good at now nixon caper from amazon and hopefully one more from a non thing company um that would be lovely. But to me, if we can just take this money to buy one starling terminals and just turn them on, yes, that would fun of money to someone that I think we all have interesting views on, but a lot faster, atx. So why not just do that? And because .

there's not enough competition there yet again, capitalism, free market, you can put all of this power into the hand of one entity. And IT doesn't matter if fis, you know elon mosque, anyone else. And I think there is nothing as reliable as fiber in the ground.

Uh, and you need that in order for the country. You know pretty soon we're not going to have full lines. We're not going to have, uh, T, V signal, uh.

over the all over the internet. Yeah.

yeah.

I should point out that the supreme court has not ruled. This is just a there are a giving cert to a pair of cases so that they they can rule. They may very well say, no, no, no. This is good. The universal service is a good thing.

I doubt this is not a good thing or bad thing. I think we're talking about whether we should be investing in people getting international access.

That's something that a good thing. But maybe this is the .

question is a legal is a legal. So so that's what they're going to determine, whether the cases .

according to the verge center around whether congress inappropriately dedicated lawmaking function. Again, this goes to shaver in difference to the fcc by letting its set contribution rates for telecoms icons companies to pay into the non profit us a, the universal service administration company, which manages the usf. IT also asked whether fcc delegated too much authority to a Price identity. Maybe they did by letting U S A, C. Manage the subsidy program.

I think we all will be grateful for this case. You should go to trial IT should be uh a judicatory. Hopefully we can now understand more uh and have more clarity about these agencies and what power they should have um this with tossing out the sever on difference IT made IT like what's what everything is A A giant question mark.

We've seen this way. I feel Better, Better at west if we had a effective congress.

yes, but the thing is what what are the lines? And they're still fussy. It's like free speech. What is considered fair use?

I think you should be congress is job, not the fcc's job.

But so yeah, I mean, Jerry men has turned congress into literally a circus. So we don't have a functioning way to actually pass laws in this country.

let alone big, ambitious laws and forti the judge in. Maybe deregulation is in a bad thing, but congress has to then step up and make regulations if they are going to the.

I don't know the the makeup of the U. S. Congress or the what they do and don't do obviously as well. No, Patrick, but I do have a feeling that every country has like every citizen of every country have a you know mixed viewings, very legislative bodies um and I wonder how much of IT is again kind of a little bit self fulfilling like surely there are people in congress .

who are wanting to do .

the right thing and it's not helping that everyone, including the people who are progressive uh, are like, oh but no congress can do anything. It's like again, this somewhere he should do something but then you refuse that somebody is doing something. I don't know that outside.

I agree. I agree. I don't know. The answer though is, I mean, this is why to me, I in effect, that we have an ineffective congress. They passed fewer laws last session than I think, and ever in history the al, let's fix IT.

just how I fixed IT. Yeah.

this is a .

china hack all over again, right? Unless something bad breaks the people to say we need to fix that and that includes democracy itself and um and so if there if if if you remove these regulations because regulation equal bad and then we have all these and people like why are things so bad oh whether the regulation and then it'll come back. And so it's it's cynically we're going to go through this phase where we go to things that are broken.

things maybe the epa shouldn't regulate water safety, but somebody Better.

Yeah exactly. We i'm sure .

they'll a new old obviously in charge of that. But this is, this is the battle of our gala court is all this is how before will happen again? right? right? OK.

So science fiction is predictive of our future. I just I worry that in this new cycle of deregulation leading to to regular, I just, I work people onna die like to think about regulations, blood, especially industrial terms. So it's gonna really hard than the people like you would have range in their hands.

Well said yes. I take a great that .

the consequences elections have consequences and elections .

have consequences. That's exactly right. Um let's take a break. We will have more with our wonderful panel. Westly fokker is here. What's the plug? Go to westly eighty three that come and look at all the things he's up to yeah .

my plug is to say hi to darn cohen uh I said I would give him a shout out um on blue sky he said that um he watches the show and so I want to say nice ah are you all .

over the blue sky these days? Is that like you're new new twitter .

around i'm a little social sliding right now?

Yeah yes, same .

socially sludge. You're a massed on threads blue sky, you ve got all this is that you're westly eighty three dot link. Get to give up. I gotto get hub.

You know, my my thing lately is I moved my blog to micro dot blog, and it's the whole ideas possy post once and then syndicate everywhere. So post there, go to mass and on and threats and a blue sky, not twitter. Because erp, I isn't open, but I like that idea that way you am everywhere in conversations and all those platforms to get looped back into the blog. And I think that's to me that's the right way to do IT.

but that's just me yeah just don't want to pay them me. I guess i'm cheap yeah. What is is the prohibited for me is like, well, I do this often enough to make IT make sense. It's a great i've looked into .

IT five books a month.

I'm unemployed right now.

Okay, oh, okay, sorry, i'll send you some money. Would get to set up on micro b.

Yeah, that's what I should be plugged .

and you go fund me. Get him on microblog, are you? You are looking for work. Yeah, always. So jobs.

This guy, if you don't hire him, this is the one of great guys out there. It's a mistake. It's just is awesome, mostly folks and westly the three outcome hiring our show today. I'll give you a plug in a bit, pet. Rick, i'm working my way through.

My shoes are in french. I don't think.

you know, do you know, do the english one anymore?

No, I had to stop. I had too much work. And then the kids, but get back to.

I can't wait to AI sk enough to translate this into french. And then at some so much sexy here and so much more intelligent, be something Better. French are sure that time for little capitalism are sure they brought you by look out today, every company, every company is in the business of managing data.

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Now this week, detect, we thank you for supporting us by going to look at that comment. If they ask you, say, I heard on to IT heart on tweet. So this is boy I mark sucker berg, clever.

He he says, you know, we shouldn't have to worry about verifying. Ages on instagram and facebook. That should be the job of the APP stores. They should verify the ages. They have all the data.

why? Why are you lawmakers trying to get us to do IT? This is a big campaign to get federal and state lawmakers to tell the APP stores, hey, you guys, you know how old these people are you to? You want to make them do IT.

Two congressional republicans preparing a new age verification bill that will do exactly that. Likely of you to john James of michigan should be introducing the legislation, according the washington post. Any day now, IT would be the first of its kind of capital hill.

Lawmakers have called for expanding guard rails for children and can end about the risk of social media. The measure would give parents the right to sue an APP store if the child is exposed to certain content. It's not facebooks fall as stand to grants fault, is not even tiktok fault, it's apple's fault.

The biggest flaw with this that I see immediately is that I can go to facebook dot com and that's not mediately through an APP store. And Sparking me a little tRicky to tell where a person signed up for a service right like crazy.

Also, you can sit load apps now, especially on apple and android devices. And so centralizing IT in the APP store to do that check means that people can set the absent still get around IT, not just using the website. And what IT also does this make the asteroid the Albert of truth for these store, for these um services? exactly. But the thing is .

the absence .

should allow this. But IT should be a service IT the the google place store should be able should do this, but that should be a service you should the people all should be able to opt internet service that i'll be something that should supply to. But they should be able to use another service if that is not all possible. So pushing the blame on the upstarts in one way make sense. But like what alex was saying, there's other ways to get to this site into this content.

Age verification is, of course, a huge problem because it's a privacy issue. I mean, not only do kids have to verify, but adults do. Everybody does right prove the year in adult. I guess the argument is, well, the APP store has more ways of knowing that they might have your credit card, for instance, they might be there might be other information.

Apple, they know the person, but if the apparent hands a phone to their kid, you can already lock down apps. If you can say they don't, they don't get to installed any apps without my I agree.

I think you should always be the parent. That fiction, right?

There are limits to that. I think yes, therefore ally, yes, but you also can a give the the parents need tools in order to be able to to implement those uh, choices and moderation. But this is isn't even about that. And you your points all of your points are well taken, alex and westly.

I think obviously, there are as in everything h instances where IT doesn't work um and setting aside the uh interest of zuker berg himself and the the the interest of the APP stores, i'm wondering if there isn't some something there that indeed the the the stores or the platforms, really that's what we're talking about. Have could have a easier way uh, implementing those age verification, which are increasingly dibble difficult to do because you are talking about credit cards to the age version is not just are you uh uh you know over eighteen or not or IT IT could be thirteen sixteen is very difficult to do. I don't know that, that would be easy for the APP stores um but that seems to me that maybe they would have more like we are I think maybe especially with apple, but we are more readily we're more ready to give them information, private information than we would be to facebook.

And also you centralize IT. Yes, there are third party apps, res and all of those issues, but you centralize IT and then you just get like a token or something that says, yes, you are that age that you are claiming to be with the service and you don't need to exchange that private information. I don't know how that would work technically, but my gut says IT could be easier for apple or google to verify IT. Then IT would be for facebook and a million and other services that would okay.

but to be want to give them that power. I mean, here's a quote from that post story that the congressman shares the concerns of many parent across michigan. The country believe apple stores are not doing up to protect our kids on social media. What a string .

sentence patriot is weird. Yes.

stores are not doing enough to protect our children .

on social media. That's a shopkeeper and you sell magazines of an adult nature isn't your responsibility to keep the kids from buying IT.

But the issue is that from the up store.

but the the magazine is also available in on the .

street and his friends.

But but the they are shaking the responsibility from where the content lies. They're moving IT further away from the center where the blame is the if that is something where the vendor needs to protect their user base, the vender needs to their user base, right from your same analogy.

What if that shopkeeper was your best friend whose selling daughter or magazines um they could do IT if they are small like vender going the daughter as say, hey, i'm still selling magazines. They're not the big store so just because there are a smaller Operation, do they still not have the same burden to make sure that that's protected? If you centralize where the responsibility lizer only these two APP stores and the content is in the .

playboy know if somebody under the age of twenty one or eighteen is buying the playboy only the people would .

know that there's a place, there's well, but but there is .

no that's how works that kind of how works if every .

APP and every website has you're talking earlier about the the risks and the practicalities of things, if every website has to verify your or every APP has to verify your age, it's a bigger deal. Then if you can centralize IT somehow and give the information only to the entity that you trust, maybe a little bit more than, you know, whatever APP that's developed in whatever country by whoever uh, that you need to send you you know what I D card copy but you're say, OK.

look, here's two cups of poison. One will kill you faster. Don't you want the one that will kill you slower?

I guess obviously, yes, I want to they also .

are .

painful though that's the question.

There's a third cup that empty entitled we don't centralize age verification rules, but we do .

net switz. It's not liz is responsibility to see if you're twenty one or eighteen by my beer. It's the shopkeeper er's responsibility .

but on sure god com, I just have to score the wheel and say.

yes, i'm twenty.

And the other part of that conversation, and maybe it's different in europe, in the U. S, but the other part of that conversation is that we're starting to realize, uh, we need and I hate to say that say like this, but we need to give parents that I would say like that we need to give parents the tools to help the children, to help them, uh uh, moderate what the children can see because isn't IT .

ultimately your job, Patrick, as a father, to say to your child, you're not old enough to install the gram. I'm not to let you have instagram yet. I mean, you know Better than any is not about age.

By the way, some thirteen year old would be old enough. Some it's really about the maturity, the chAllenge. Only the parent knows that I think the parent really is the ultimate gatekeeper and should be yes. And I agree with you tools, what whatever tools you d need, if you need a tool to tell how old your kid is, okay, but whatever tools you need, but really the tool is you have the phones should have parental controls, which they do right? And the parent has the ultimate responsibility deciding whether even to give the kid of phone or not.

Yes, I agree, I agree, but I think there are limits to that. Not every parent is super taxi. I and that builds into other things as well, I know.

but kids and kids are also gonna go in and get a beer sometimes at .

the being you .

can not perfect, but I think parents are the are really the ones who should make these decisions. And and i'm not, again, giving them tools. Yes, that's controls are tools.

I think we agree, but I think currently in our in our a world of tech and internet, the tools are maybe a little bit lacking. And like a matter.

what do you what do you think, west, because you have got to twelve your old so you're right in the middle this right now.

So the funds locked down, they can use IT outside of our our view. And so IT says home they can't take IT doesn't leave the house. Um and the we we have the printed control. So I know what apps on there and they can insulate new apps without uh, talking to us first. There they have no social media access.

And what is a reaction to, especially the twelve year old.

it's they don't know they're missing because they don't know because they are .

not taking anything away from them. It's Normal. This is your job. You also don't know.

Let them have a beer. I mean.

it's just is your job great?

There's a big conversation happening here about porn site, I guess, all over the world about porn sites. And I think we are A A little bit and we don't realize the damages this is making.

And I wouldn't realize if I hadn't been educated about IT a little bit by people who are saying um you know doctors and and experts who are saying IT is changing the the the the relationship kids very Young teenagers sometimes have with uh uh sexuality and sexual partners and so the idea that you need to lock down porn sites and to have them uh uh do age verification properly is not as ridiculous as we would think that would be because westly, you're saying the the phones are locked down. Do they not have access to the internet? Maybe they don't and maybe that's the way.

brother, but no problem. The cry of like these companies aren't doing the same thing coming from the same party that says we can't teach six sex education in schools. You can't you can't shrug your responsibility. You can't to say on one hand, they can't be exposed, but on other hand, we can give them the tool so that they can even understand what can I cannot be done absolutely removing something and just saying let's just act like IT doesn't exist is not a solution.

I know I think no one to argue. Well, no one of this panel would argue with that. That's obviously something you have to do.

I do. I mean, goss h, you've got my kids old enough that I didn't really have to worry about this when they were that age. It's it's a tough thing to do.

I think you were smart to draw the line when you did. You're right. Some parents won't. But I don't want the government or facebook or any company to tell me what my kids can. I can do.

That's my job. I know the government .

tells your kids what to do all the time about a lot of things. And IT is a very slippery slope to be saying, oh, I don't want the government to tell me about this or that because then you you generalize IT, and you again, go to someone should do something, but not the government. When that someone is the government, the government tells your kids what to do all the time about a lot of things. A I don't think the internet, I mean, obviously there are things that would not make sense, but I don't think the internet is completely a IT should have nothing to do about the internet just because it's the internet and we know IT then where um you know a comfortable in IT.

I just find IT very strange that right now we'd discussing earlier on the show the idea that the republican party wants to do away with action to thirty to limit corporations ability to filter trash from their platforms, and the intent, the same party is saying, we must protect the children and we must have age gated verification for lude content. Good luck sorting out what that means.

So my thought here is that I think that having this land on the government psychiatrically in an american context means handing over control of what we can say and see in here and read to people who are very socially conservative. To the point in which we're onna end up with the oma internet and a lot, a lot of people were less technology. The point is it's just it's just mad name training nuts. How we talk about to both sides of their mth, that's a point. Sorry.

want to shout, but we can talk out of one side of our mouth so we can say we can, at least on this show, say what should happen and and whether we get IT or not. I think the government, the government says things like you to wear seat belts, you have to wear a helmet if you're under eighteen, things like that. Those I think reasonable laws. Is IT a public safety issue? Maybe IT is patric, maybe he really .

is a public safety issue. Think we don't see as much because of our age and our our comfort with the internet. Um the the the real issues that IT can create.

Pornography is one, but social mea is another end. But but i'm i'm curious i'll ask this question to sort of recenter the question about text tuff like pure text tuff. Let's say there was away and maybe there isn't.

Let's say there was a way to determine someone's age, uh, without compromising private data. Um would that be OK to implement in various steps? Would you be okay with that?

I don't want to get to go. I don't forget .

about the government like each. Let's say.

let's say, let's say there is a new technique, a facial recognition technique, that with absolute accuracy, the camera on your phone can say how old you are and then give you access to the age appropriate stuff. Would that be OK that OK Patrick.

is that yeah that's I think that's the way I would face IT Better .

as long as i'm the one deciding what is what is not okay, then i'm fine with that.

Yes, the government, you can drink for snooze for a certain age.

I, I.

oh.

okay.

So I mean, i've heard that if .

you give your kids wine, sometimes water down .

a little bit. I've heard that well.

westly makes really good pointing. I I want to go back to west point about sex al education in the united states because it's might sound od to our foregone audiences. But in the U. S, what councils lude has various interpretations across the political spectrum based on religion.

mostly in different states states.

And so what we're saying here is the framing is around parents taking care of children, and I think can be very hard to ark against that. But the way to be implement, I think, Patrick, in the us, in a practical sense, without leos magical machine that knows my age perfectly every time, is that we're going to have people who are very, very posting discussion of human sexuality at all, trying to ban that from anyone over the age of eighteen.

Or let's say you're gay, or you think you might be gay and you want and your twelve you're old, all you want to know what does that mean? What I am I that could be that would very likely .

by de in oklahoma. Ah yeah so but it's really very hypothetical .

because there is no way of of a certain ascertaining someone's age without violating every users privacy. In the U. K. For a while they talked about, oh, you just go into a pub and and people will give you a certificate saying what your age is so they literally floated this is an idea actually in france.

you currently, the law has passed and is in effect, that, uh, porn sites have to verify the age .

of their use. That .

really no .

body. no. Well.

this is a gallery that has new art, is at a point site.

Like, I remember national geography .

when I was a kid, that was my point site. Like, yeah, like, how do you define this so that IT applies to the places that matter?

I think I think maybe you can get someone to make a list.

And IT IT works well enough for have done that. There are states that have done that states and those states most reputable porn companies withdraw .

sort of because .

I think was happening here as well yeah because they don't want responsibility and what .

you get there is there as the non reputable companies but um I I yeah it's complicated, but I see where you are coming from and I understand that that concern it's more yeah it's it's really difficult. And there no matter what you do, there are gonna like negatives to IT, which are serious concern. Pop.

this is the pop of podcasting. Just gonna this to all the other plans. Listening one a bit of advice that I got was that the world is a very large place yeah and your job is not to keep the world out because that's an impossible task.

Your job is to give your kids the tool to take on finger all of the things that they're gona experience because you don't have control about what that well eventually run into. That's so giving them the tools mentally and emotionally and understanding how they can navigate the world, that is none of your control. That is your primary role. Because if your role or you're thinking is that i'm just going to keep the world out, that's not gonna happen binger.

Well said. Well said. Westly.

yes, but and also don't .

call me about.

No, I think that that's that's absolutely truly that's how I raised my kids. I was a very less affair. Parents let them play video games as long as they wanted to, whatever.

But I did what you said, which is I tried, didn't still in them and it's not know as a parent you're really our role model uh try and still in them the values and the judgment to navigate the world that I knew that I couldn't control even went Frankly even when they were Young. Um you know after about ten the peers, the peer group becomes much more important than the parenting group. So you want you want to make sure they are prepared for that. Agree with U S, I think is true. You don't like this though.

guys. It's not no, it's not like you're making IT seem a little the subtext is so laws don't matter and I know that's not what you mean westly, obviously. But but there are still there are still laws and still things that collected laws.

You know, it's a bad word. I think in the us. It's things that we collectively decide, okay, this we should agree all of us kids shouldn't do and so we'll do what we can to make sure they don't do with right.

And and we're OK with IT on in the physical world. And IT seems that when we're talking about IT in the in the uh uh digital world， over sudden IT becomes oh but they wanted do this because of that and they wanted which is not wrong, I understand. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any rule for anything ever because there are issues that are real in the the internet as well.

All right.

we're going to move on. Stand by last segment coming up. Then you all can go have a beer if you're over age, over the age of twenty one.

or repair.

or repair. What is the age? What is the drinking age in france?

eighteen.

Similarly well captures the united states twenty one year old rule.

There is a little of the course. Oh, I I was drinking a little. I never drink a lot. But yes, kids drink and do other things before. There are a teen, of course. You know, there are rules and laws that are there that, you know, there are gonna broken, but it's still important to have them.

Yeah, I had something I learned as my kids became adults, start telling me what they did when they were little, I was dismay, shocked. And when you were doing what you were, oh my god, I had no idea.

And now there are new york times .

best selling authors. yeah. So there, no, I know.

I, I have no idea, had a parent, just as nobody does, right? Nobody does that. You.

nobody does.

You gotto figure IT out on your own. I still remember .

the moment I realized that parenting is not a thing you do. It's just, no, it's not like a specific act is how you interact to the child all all moments. And that scared the pants on.

I thought you could like, go parent and then live. No, a parenting is how you live. You have to be good all time.

And you, right? no. And let me tell you with this, I don't know if that will help or hurt. You are going to traumatize your children.

Actually, my new's daughters, two and half months old, and you're already only that I going .

to do help IT when they are nonverbal, when they're little and you're in the room with them and you leave, they don't know that you're coming back, they they go, oh my god, all on my own. They have no idea. You have traumatized ed them merely by leaving the room. So I think was .

as a pretty good handle on all of this. I want him to be coat.

The goal is, when they go to envy, go to counseling, you want to make sure they talk about your partner more than you.

It's turn SHE did IT let's.

we really .

had to take a break. Last break. This is a great panel, the daddy panel.

I like IT. I like IT. And if you are a new parent, god bless you.

That is a difficult and chAllenging job, and the most important thing will do this week a tech has brought you by bit. Warden, I I look at if there's one thing I told my kids they didn't listen. By the way, you need a password manager.

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All right, quickly, we just do a few more because I know you guys got ta get back to spanking your kids and stuff. Amazon's echo IT was supposed to get A I networking to ae. Apparently part of the problems as IT takes forever, this you go, hey, echo and IT goes, what? What time is? IT, wait a minute.

Wait minute. Let me think fairly high, very high. Lancy with A C. I, which actually, if you think about that makes sense.

Yeah, but it's also a mood teenager later.

hi. yeah. What you want? No, come on in. So, uh, here's a solution.

They say, well, okay, so maybe we are gonna have, you know an AI chatbot in this thing, but what if we partner? This is actually with the rabbit r one did right? We partner with uber and ticket master inter card and so it's not a skill.

Remember, they used to have skills and amazon's echo, it's built in. So the things that you might have turned on skills for in the past is built in. What do you think is a good way to go? Is the uh like does anyone .

actually keep using any other amazon harvard .

devices? Not A I might think you also missing the thing is this enhanced most echo. I'll just say echo is supposedly supposed be a .

description on top of that. Yes, five thousand for a what do they call IT pro, echo pro or something?

Yeah, yeah. So this new version, IT, will not be free. And so it's not just will you still use IT.

but will you pay play for IT know to delete answers ever since they put but they decided to make prime worse by putting ads in the prime shows. I just don't think I need to give amazon any more money. They decided that I mush muck and then I am going to take IT.

So it's IT called in justification. And we've seen we've seen .

this a couple of box. I mean, I don't love the fact that they added ads, but theyve been offering this thing for not for free. But amazon prime .

gives prime in france.

uh, seventy euro. So like A D books.

So it's much more.

Here in the U. S. Is IT how much no .

one know it's one twenty, right? Yes, it's it's overall Price .

so long it's like I literally don't .

know what I buy. Yeah that's that's an example of yes.

But I mean, yeah okay maybe maybe if it's that much you want to get more out of IT, but here it's so cheap. It's like I they give you like the gaming stuff and the music and they just have an .

entire ed europe as as fast as they did.

Oh, it's difc. It's just cheaper.

We know ads. Do you notice not happen for prime that your amazon shipping is slower.

Amazon shipping to me only comes in two varieties. It'll be here this afternoon or it'll be here whenever the hell they decide to see. Yes.

that's the same as if you're prime.

by the way. Yeah no, that that's my point. Like prime used to be defined like the prime on whatever we .

get IT.

Yeah yeah. Also on the point about prime different tie between the two countries in the cost of of just keep mind that in two thousand and twenty three, Frances G D P. Per capital was forty four k and in the U.

S. Is like eighty six so we can afford IT, man. And that's not that's not a this keeps mind earlier I was making the point for european dynamism. I am just say that there is A A P P, P purchasing Price parity differently .

here in my prime mais one hundred thirty nine dollars a year in the U. S. So it's twice with this.

Yeah, in france I want to get go, go.

no. Oh, just what's the f free version cost because there isn't there .

a way to pay more and after a point.

not a .

couple of xx.

I don't know this.

Is how andy Jessie gets away with this.

This is how money here. And just i'll tell you.

the reality is I don't watch amazon primal that much. There was a show about the french big brother like the reality TV thing. The first one, which was really well done actually it's a french show um and and I watched that I was surprised to him out of bed to be honest.

Uh there was a lot but only because i'm used to having no ads anywhere ever. Um but but yeah to me IT seems acceptable. But well, I just I find IT so .

funny .

that we have the european on the show today and I said there was nothing who is arguing in favor of more american style capitals and than I am I feel I feel like I be, by the way, citizenships.

That's what we have.

Patrick on because I will not take that trade. I'm sorry. I'm very fine here.

Go back to finland.

So I think that was the U. K. That invented these super low cost airlines like ryanair, right? Yeah, like five dollars to flight friends.

But if you want to use the toilet, be a couple of weeks more if you want to bring me. So we that inspired something called spirit airlines in the united states. Have any of you ever flown those big, yellow, lemon coloured planes? What do you think westly you like?

Something that was the worst experience ever um because worse is even if you have to have a connection because the connections could be like, I don't know, a day apart um so IT IT is never convened and um yeah and there's very the one and only .

time .

one yeah I did .

the once and I .

totally so we're never .

doing there's a lcr rooms like this so your knees are guarantee you I don't want to have to all sure you are up against the see in front of you. You pay for everything bags you do get to go the bathroom for free, but bags, water, anything you ve gotta give extra money for. Um anyway, they just filed for a reorganising chapter eleven bankruptcy, which is not that much of a surprise. We've lost more than two and a half billion dollars in the last four years.

Do you remember how to make, uh, a hundred million dollars? Leo starts at ten billion dollars and build .

an airline by an airline used to be a liner, but now we've been, now we have an airline.

Can I go back to alexa for just a second? Yes, sure. There is one thing which I think is really interesting that's happening in the A I space uh in the about now, which is um companies are figuring out ways to make the AI do stuff um and and because until now they've basically been the most impressive aspects have been chatbot so they can give you information but they can't really do much and anthropic has been a has unveiled their uh tool that basically uh you install A A program on your computer and then IT takes a screen shot, sends IT up to the entropic servers and then sends back the information to do stuff with your mouse and keyboard and so you can ask you to do stuff and I will actually do IT on your computer. Same thing with alexa. Which with those partnerships potentially with uber and others, IOS is also working on actions apple is working on actions for IOS for apple intelligence.

But whatever I think this is going to OpenAI also .

in us OK it's a rumor and we don't know how it's gonna probably is going to be like entropic um what's is cold? Director, I can't remember the code name that makes me nervous. Operator, it's Operator I think Operator I think yeah um but but I think this is gonna a really interesting shift if IT does work out and it's not like, you know fifteen seconds of delay between each screen shot and action. Uh instruction relay um is really interesting because this is when A I shifts from yeah as I was saying, just giving you information in the form in pictures or chat box or music into actually doing stuff for you, which would be amazing if I can do IT. We talked .

about this on windows weekly. On wednesday, microsoft igi said A I is going to be agenticity that's the phrase they use. It's going to be an agent.

It's going to be your your representative out in the real world, which is i'm okay with his lies. You don't give IT nuclear weapons. 来 then well.

the talk about using echo um to do that for you in in terms of that's .

exactly and right.

But the every that you mentioned is not free, those are cost. They're trying to actually train people to spend money using these device, right? And so it's making people more custom to uh, having this done on behalf with not just, uh, doing a task, but charging you money and making sure that they profit offer that. So I do think it's working .

right society. We've established that .

what we also establish that amazon is losing money on their voice assistance. And this is the way that they are trying to make a more sustainable .

in the future. You know, they can afford that though. I mean, ten billion dollars we are going to look up in on reality lab.

yes. Ha, yeah. So I mean.

maybe it's just worth IT, maybe they just don't care.

Seems like a big baby, but I find a very funny .

the ruling to pit away ten billion blowers on stupid little god's no one really once. But because me two ninety more a months to get prime.

I looked that like some.

Why don't they just stop losing money on echo and give me back my ad free prime?

Do you know something told me? I think this was last week on the show, is that the companies make more money on the advertising than they do on the fee that you might pay to get really the advertising. So they actually want you to do the advertising.

I just want to watch to the expense without insurance commercials. Pipeline going, hi, have you switch .

because the expense was not made for commercial and interruptions, right? Or was IT when you have a show that doesn't cause to problematic?

Also, they're just so disruptive and terrible. And I just want one surface in my life to be add free, and I find very first .

so that I keep having to pay for IT. Three, two. What did we say? Two.

nine alex pay for that's that's it's called, look, we charge people seven books a month not to get ads in our .

shows because your little report, you're legend, we all like you. We're here because we think you're hence, you know you're not you're not the parent company. A A W S also owns whole foods. You know what I mean.

like I don't. So are alex. Are you saying that because amazon is successful, they should give away, but prime video for free？

No, i'm saying that I pay a hundred and parents thirty dollars a year for a service and half for a very long time. I mean, early customer. I'm an early adopter. Maza prime, you're welcome.

seattle. So they should maybe break out, uh, the different services that they offer with amazon prime and let you pay for that one or not if you want to turn out body and unbundling.

So yes, i'll take that. But I I when a corporation says we've had agreement and now i'm going to make IT worse and tough, I just don't think that my role in capital needs to go out down. This is that I can do IT is to forment into complain.

And you, I am you all I forgot. Usually I tell people this ahead of time. Alex wilhelm is a Young man in old men in a Young man's body. And he is, he is just yelled the clouds .

all going out the cloud 的 A W S。 And i'm also not that Young anymore. I'm just old in cranky now, have you know me too long?

And he .

needs .

to pay to get rid of ads. Is that some people should pay alex to not to hear complaint?

No, no, no, no. I would pay the here and complain.

like three, three years well spent shot up. What if people pay the novels?

How much is your .

newsletter?

Ten .

dollars a months. There you go. It's free. It's mostly free, but you feel free. I do very few pay walls. I want possible, everybody.

but you want to make, you've gotta pay the rent. You've got two little mouse to feed.

No.

I married a doctor. Oh yeah, you could live a little house behind the house.

And yeah.

yeah.

His shed, by the way, is where I used to play as a twelve year old people. People know this. I've set IT before, but alex lives in my child at home, which is weird. Is how? And completely comment, yes, but true, yes.

But the next time you come over all the fifty five .

and samsung frame set up so you you can see, cool.

Where's a frame going .

in in study? That was a bad idea. I had a curve.

Yeah, yeah. We ve got for free from my father in law.

and we just kept IT. There's no reason, stringent curve, unless it's so why that IT wraps around you?

I do have an ultrawise gaming moder now from that.

Yes, same thing. I have a good point here.

Back to be friends again.

Good all.

Well.

how wide is forty nine inches? Is that why? No .

thirty four? No thirty four eight.

where he said has a forty nine age predator. The raps are well, but you'd spread sheet on IT. It's like, girl, what you doing?

I have a fifty five OLED. That's what I play. Well, I on I know .

that forty nine is essentially two twenty seven and I think it's the super also again. Yeah so it's two twenty seven, which makes sense because you many people have to monitors anyway.

Yeah, that's what he does. Well, he has a third monitor too. So she's got the fourteen thousand years. That's twenty seven eight.

Now I see where you guys get along.

SHE likes SHE was so mad because I I bought the fifty five injured and then SHE said, I want a giant screen too I said, what? You don't really need IT .

and he was .

so pissed off oh my god, probably rightly so, right? yeah. So where where do we get your your newsletter? Mister alex wilhelm, optimum.

what is IT cautious and mum.

cautious? Optimum, mom, god's optimism. That news? Yes, yes, the robot text is going to my head. I'm sorry to baLance between people who .

think that technology companies are the devil in content and people think that they are going to bring us into a rapturous europa. Instead, I want to be optimistic about business and technology, but reasonable .

schedule as well. Also listen to him on this week in startups every week, and we'd love having you on. Thank you. And thank please, thank you. Lovely wife lies up for letting us have you all evening.

I will indeed, leo. And as always, the next time, year in time, please come over. Well.

I I popped by the a that about two years ago. I was in. Was walk in by his house and he came out the door and I said, alex, and he looked at me IT was like, do I know you as it's me, leo? And so i've never seen you have side the studio and you are wearing one of those .

british like racing driver hats from the and you didn't look like leo report. You look like man visiting child and college environment.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was. Anyway, thank you, alex. Thanks so much.

Thank you. Westly foker westly eighty three dot com is the link tree. What kind of job would you? What would be the perfect .

job for a westly foker um to be a kept man where managers independently wealthy?

I love all. It's great that to be he is labor involved .

yeah it's a weird, weird time and tech to get a job right now because yeah it's especially as we get close to the holidays. Why hire someone when the people who can train them or the work they're going to do is um not going to be super impactful? So the the fourth quarter right now is just like you need them clean in. People are leaning their books to make IT the fourth quarter look good.

So it's really, really hard. Well, never mind them. Don't hire this guy. But in two years, come back, we will talk about you. Novel, mean.

two months, two months. Come back in her, my or hire me now i'll take.

i'll have if you're looking. One of the greatest guys ever is so .

community management or developing relations, that's kind of my jam, but am very flexible. yeah.

Is adorable. Westly eighty three dot com. Thank you, Wesley. Always a pleasure to see we will have you back real soon. Not i'm not waiting two years and power of page has been a year.

I'm glad we've like I don't know how you fell off the list, but i'm glad have you back i'll have you back again soon. Um he's a website is a nuts Patrick dot com that's the home of honey. Would dick .

and .

you find the .

links to everything I do? I need to update IT because there are I see the failure .

club till you should the english where yeah soup out lazer punch.

Is that in french? Yeah, IT isn't french. It's it's a just a side project.

We have fun with IT. We do a marvel stuff. We just reviewed the agata algitha all along. Oh yeah, that was a good, was pretty good.

I was her a lot is .

she's very good.

captain, one of my favorite actors.

good. The .

blizz. Did you celebrate the twenty? This week was the twenty eight anniversary of .

world of warcraft, or one? Well, yes, obviously, thirty years of aircraft, thirty years of world of warcraft, a ten years of hard stone. I was at the company when we launched hard stone IT was fun, weird time.

I did celebrate. I have a kind of a weird relationship with lizard because of all the stuff that come to light in in recent years. And I was watching the celebration.

I don't know anyone at that time me anymore and like there's maybe one person who I had met um but it's it's a bit but you know it's a special game for a lot of people and for me as well that's how I got my start. I I was doing a podcast about world of aircraft in french in two thousand. Six one, yeah.

when you touch an work in a more craft in france, what does that say?

I play in english. Yeah, that's no. Yeah, it's it's translated, but I don't know I in english some of my games.

that's one of that was one of my favorite .

game work solution. But to probably.

Patrick, a pleasure. Also, this is, this is was so fun for me to get together with the three of you. Thank you for being having you.

Thanks to our wonderful audience who puts up with us for three hours every sunday we do to IT two P M pacific, five P M esterton twenty two hundred UTC which means Patricks up late. Uh, bikes. I forgive us two. Yeah, middle the night now you can watch us. Yeah no kid, right?

Which is probably why I haven't been .

for little like it's swell. But we got more often. I love get you on this is great and it's really nice to get the european perspective as well.

I really appreciate that because it's it's easy for us to get very U S. Centric uh, on the show. And I I think it's important. Remember that we have thirty percent of variances outside the us. We've we've got a broader knowledge if you wants to watch live.

As I mentioned, we're on eight different streams, youtube, twitch, tiktok, x 点 com， linked in facebook, kick and of course, for our club members in the club. Twit, this cord, but but most people don't watch live. I mean, who has time to you know settle down every sunday evening for a show? So what you should do is download you going to copy at our website with that TV.

There's audio and video ah you can also if you go to twitter that TV and you go to the this weekend, take page you'll see a link to a youtube channel at all video all the time. Great way to share clips. If you had up you know us like you want to share westley parenting advice, which that was really good.

You can clip that out. Youtube makes IT easy senate to somebody IT helps promote the show to. We appreciate that.

And of course, easiest thing to do, as with all podcast, is get a pocket client subscribe that we'll get IT. We even doing this show for twenty years, our twenty anniversary. We will be in April.

It's kind of an amazing we have cross a thousand showed k, it's kind of an amazing a thing. And it's really attribute to all of you for putting up with us for so very long. Thanks especially to those employees that I mocked earlier.

If you do have employees, alex, have our employees, they're the best. They are really, really great. Anthony Y.

Y. Nelson, stepping in for benito kinsolving for the next few weeks. Thank you. Anthony y, for the job you do. He's amazing editor, producer, technical director. He's technically our creative director, but benedek an salas who is the Normal produce the show. Kevin king, john Ashley, we've got great people in our studio crew whose basically one person now, berk, win.

And of course, the CEO of to at lisa report, my wonderful wife, who is now morning a forney nine, last to her son's favorite team, the Green light packers. thanks. Just a good and steers right now.

Thanks for everything, everybody. We'll see you next week. And as i've said for twenty years, another twitch is in the king.

得了 出。