TWiT 1010: The Densest State in the US - TikTok Ban, Drones Over Jersey, GM Quits Robotaxis
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It's time for tweet this week in tech. We have such an exciting panel, smart people all. Mike elgin is here.

Emily for li, our atterley at law, Cathy galas. Of course, one of the biggest topics of the day, the new jersey drone mystery. We will dive into that.

Emily lives in their jersey. He has quite a few thoughts. We will also talk about info wars, apparently the onion isn't gonna get him and the tiktok ban. What are the first amendment implications on that? More coming up next on a great .

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This is to IT. This is twit. This week can take episode one thousand ten, recorded sunday, december 520 four， the dense state in the us.

It's time for twice this week can take the show. We cover the week's tech news and i've got a great as always, i've got a great panel assembled for you, mike organs visiting us from lahk, mexico. Hi, mike. Hey, lio.

Thank you for having me on. I know exactly .

where he is because i've stayed in that house and it's a wonderful place and you're surrounded by great food and just walk out the door and half a block away, there's a nice talk of place and incredible so incredible great to see you. Mike like mike has his own newsletter now machines society that I if you're interested um that's where you're write about the machine society that we all live in the .

cyber punk non fiction. I love IT the world and .

I love IT ah he also still writes for many publications. You'll see his byline. And the reason is in mahok he and his wife familia do wonderful gastro, no mad trips to all over the world.

And you just did what I know what haka, the gastro nom dot net is the website and the experiences you're going to go to sisily next processor and venice, maraca l. Salvador and back to mexico. This is barona and my favorite places in .

the world we've .

ever found, the taste places in the world we like. I everywhere has good food though. That's true. Norway, everywhere.

Button norway.

wow. Is the gate 感 annoying people .

right from the start that that was Emily for leny mocking me and dry belt bus。 So it's great to have you. Well.

thank you coming at you live from jersey. I'm inside a drone.

I'm flying the drones. Hey, I want to ask you about that. The second, but first, let's say, say, I also the Cathy who is joining us, SHE cut rights protector. You have a lot, gator. Their Cathy old cathedral is like at that.

哎， 对， you really there was a sale.

Hydration, very important, especially when you live in a house. Spoke right?

Yes, I too was I also marking you for the the norway quotes. So just to be clear for well.

I don't know, it's just me personally, but there's only so much pickled hearing .

I can eat and I like pick hearing. I've never found that threshold amount of too much quicker hearing.

So Emily, have you seen the drones? I have not. I did write .

a piece about of her PC mag and I was hoping to go out and take a good picture. But it's you never know where they're gonna be and they haven't been over my but I am the county right next to the main county where they were seen. So moist county is where the whole thing kind of started and now it's up and down the east coast. But it's twenty minutes for me. I haven't I haven't seen anything.

but I would love to so there is a certain kind of which is of salem element to this yeah which is I mean, there probably was something really going on over new jersey. I would i'll ask you, Emily. But but I think also now i've seen drones, everybody seeing him because I can light in the sky, whether it's a helicopter in airplane or a drone or whatever you go, there's a drones yeah.

probably people are taking them out and now adding to the mix. And you know, just complicating IT, I bet, because now you get pictures of famine.

i'm tempted to fly my internet night. Now, that's right. Maybe put some Christmas .

lights on how?

Yeah.

I saw one. Yeah, he just texted the group chat drone. I see a drone.

So there uap uni dense fied erie phenomenon, right? Uh, the military is getting into IT. The president elect is gone to look into IT.

What do we have? Any idea what the military denies? Any knowledge of IT, right?

Yeah, the military is is denying IT. And I saw that to see my artist, the department of human security secretary. He did an interview, and he, he totally squashed IT was, I go their planes. And I thought I was a little suspicious. How much discredited .

is just a plain? Don't get is just a plain? yes. So what I tell the arctic plane, I gotto be honest with you.

The one I saw, i'm pretty sure, was a yeah, but I had three lights. That is always the case. yeah.

I saw one over my house in pelissier, california. They are everywhere. Yes, but as I said, it's a certain amount of hysteria that's .

very hogan was basically pointing. There's light to the sky and people said that, ryan, like these the starts that have been over your over your your your heads .

for your entire life of the belt of um .

i've just saying like there is a headline on N B C news chuck humor request drone detection system for new york, new jersey as mysterious devices litter the skies new or governor cafe central urge federal legislators to pass a law that grant states more author to .

directly yes, that's the issue that the states they can. They don't have authority .

to shoot .

them down so they need .

to convince ot down. Why wouldn't .

you shoot me down the ocean?

What do IT .

down shot with .

the option we're entering .

the era AAAA permit .

or not like? We don't know what's going on.

Well, the guy and new jersey said that the coast guard told him that they had like thirteen following a coast guard ship so that when he was like, if you're already ocean, we could shoot down .

yeah but then .

so at the coast guard, but do you guys think we needed a .

nip this in the bud? And like, how else are you going .

to do IT in the but do know that I do think like people deserve answers.

You do you do say and you're peace. A P. C. Magazine is giving off kind of a chinese spy. O and by the way.

we're being very cautious, like I haven't written more pieces than this one because we're not trying to add to historia and i'm not trying to add to right now, it's there's an important kind of like reporting ethics in this situation because you don't know what IT is. But I still think you should shoot you down like off the record, like I I would write that article.

What is your drone expert think? Is that an actual consumer drone?

E, no. So he, that's one of the things we talk about. And this is that if they are very large, that seems like they're not something you couldn't buy IT at best buy. And he talked.

how do we know their large?

I think they're flying a relatively low to the ground. And so people can see with eyes, how do we know .

what they're flying? Load of the ground, this thing.

yet people are hearing that.

people are hearing IT.

So so the thing .

is you have to understand that when they are flying load to the ground, people are seeing like five or six or seven different things. They're seeing stars, they're seeing consumer drones, they're seeing airplanes, they're seeing helicopters, they're seeing lots of different things.

And now it's got aliens in their head and they look, and I know you've see that video where the woman is watering her lawn and he sees a rainbow, and because the son is shining through her long and say, what are they putting on the water? The governments putting something, the water to make him, because because he started with the SHE, started with the conspiracy thinking, and then he had looked at the world. And in the same thing happened with the area of fifty one.

Area of fifty one is an experimental aircraft facility. That's what IT does. IT flies a things that fly that nobody y's ever seen before. So yes, people saw things they never saw before flying around around fifty one. It's really ridiculous. Meanwhile, they almost certainly is china, chinese or russian, uh, drones that are highly capable and very fast buzzing uh, military aircraft, right and and spying through that round. What I understands .

why we don't know .

why no .

jersey well.

the best of china would .

you fly in a jersey to rest? You could just go to germany or I mean IT seems like A A A lot of .

there's a military base near where they can started.

Where where is you can .

military base? It's a global phenomenon. This is not new jersey, is now the hysteria is new jersey, but they're buzzing, uh, airbases in europe, the buzz sand .

in santiago and junior.

yeah, I mean, they they have this kid. Billy is a great technology for spying because if you shoot IT down, they can be like, well.

IT wasn't ours, you know, right? I mean, I think there's a baLance you don't want to be controversial, but also, I watched this hearing on drones because the new jersey thing is starting all this conversation. And IT really does sound like our country is not equipped to handle drones.

Like to figure out what they are to stop them from coming over. Like the fact that we can just diagnose IT. And guys said, nip this whole thing in the bud is actually because our technology and our strategy towards drones is not good enough. And from the hearing eye, ched, everyone in government agreed that that's the case is just like a question of how to handle IT. So I don't think we should dismiss IT just because we don't have the technology to figure that out.

Why if you're a russian spider drone, do you run bright lights in a triangle formation?

I agree, but just we should be able to figure that out. And that's what everyone is saying.

They think there's two things. One is OK drones are a technology that exists that maybe may not pose various vectors of trouble for us. And we seem in equipped both um technically and from a policy standpoint standpoint to be able to deal with IT. Okay, I think we're all on board with that. But I think in terms of leaving to the conclusion that the thing to do when you see the the light and sky is to shoot IT, I don't think we're at that point.

I I don't think it's a leap. I think like this is has been going on for A A month and is like people deserve answers. It's scary if something is flying over your house every night is a failure of government that they can help you.

So are there okay, that's a good question. Are there people who are every night .

drones are .

going over over one. A P IT seems to .

be anywhere from one to like four.

And they they have where they just go over.

They seem to do wear different patterns. But those people are scared and they have families and their like, what is going on with my house. And I think that they deserve to have like any answer and it's ridiculous that they don't.

Yeah but but I think what we're saying is this is literally shoot first, ask questions later like let's .

ask the question over the ocean to no one saying shoot IT down besides me, but one over the ocean.

Well, the one problem is IT like, okay.

is that one of what he .

is with the spy balloon? Just recover IT and see what IT.

I mean, as a methodological remove one, you know, extract a sample that may make sense. And maybe extracting a sample involves shooting IT over the ocean. But I think about the problems is there's so much historia and there's so many lights of so many things. How do you actually know that you've extracted one of the sample that we're concerned about because you may have just gotten somebody's hobby?

Yeah but I mean, you act like shooting something down is is like you so dramatic? It's like we are sending bombs at the push shot.

If you're shooting down some people in a helicopter, that is dramatic. Yeah, I don't think people have a good ability to distinguish between what's us only in lights, drone light. I like other lights, airplane lights.

So yes.

I don't think people are very good at making that distinguish, and I don't want people to start shooting at those. Just in case IT is civilian aircraft or even military ecco ft. That wouldn't we be able to monitor radio transmissions around these drones?

That seems like we can do anything. There may not be. I mean, the state of the art in in military drones that there are A I base, there's an australian company that there are signs tonic, they don't use, they don't use G, P, S, and they don't need a connection with the Operator.

They they can be basically, they can programme A, I to say, go go fly over this ship with this airbase, take lots of high resident on fly back is like no big deal, is no there's no there there in terms of in terms of interrupting radio australia, interestingly, has developed a methodology for and bigger drones, you know like the kind that go great distances, the more like aircraft to navigate by the stars of all things. Because russia in north korea ah right now, or jamming airspaces to defeat uh drones that do rely GPS and other signals. interesting.

Yeah so so that's the day they are. But I think I think it's very likely many of these drones are most of these drones are consumer drone. These are D J, I drone.

There's more than a million of them in the united states. Eight hundred and fifty thousand of them are registered with the government. There are so many of them.

and people are flying around .

in my bottom drawer and are getting more capable, no, at flying at night. So people are flying them at night. And so, you know, again, if russia is flying drones with lights is probably the point of that is to freak everybody out and to understand that russia's flying drones over american air space, right? So, oh, wise, I wouldn't have lights.

What's the point? So I think, you know, we we do need to get on, you know, the pentagon, the darpa does need developed technology to be able to track a drone visually so that you have a telescope that automatically tracks what's in the sky, no matter where IT goes or how fast he goes. And so we could look at IT and see what that is before .

we shoot IT down. Yeah, I think such an unsatisfying answer that they're just saying nothing. It's not that's not a thing.

You know. I think the most likely scenarios is that some sort of military view, that's why it's being seen near military bases. I saw one one person say that we are developing the capability to detect a radiation from atomic weapons and that we're testing these drones to um we would potentially be using in a scenario where there was an atomic bomb somewhere and we could try regulate IT the military base said .

it's not theirs but we yeah but that .

isn't that what they would say, right? What ones what do you know? I mean, they should probably what they should do. They should place a call to somebody and dudes.

How do we get out of this? Because we don't wanted to know what we're doing, but we don't want people to start shoot nana and we don't want people to freak out how what would be the next step. How would you do that? You'd have the somebody, the pennon spokesperson come on, say what those are.

Hs know um nothing. If there's nothing to see here is what they would say. So so here's .

what you need to know. There's what you, the audience needs to know. We are we just entered over the last couple of years, the world of drone warfare. Drones are the most important development. And words that ukraine, the Cherry exactly ukraine itself is like using, you know, a million drones a month.

And the comic crazy drones, we all remember the C E of google, eric hmt, his company makes four hundred dollar come drones that fly using A I and drop bombs on things. That's what he does for living. There is many, many companies .

like that is working by the with palmer lucky ones deficient.

So the background is important to know that the U. S. Military and all of its all the companies that supplied the U. S. Military are scrambling to develop and test military drones and the economic MIT that that's what they are doing or work that that's in the sky that not going to do in itself. So that's one thing that's happening.

That's what's .

happening that the next well and .

also consumer drones and 点 kids are for senator dries up。 But really it's military test.

If that's what's happening, they're actively lying to the american public .

court there and there's doing smoking room.

smoking mirrors because the F, A, A issue don't know fly you can fly over here, which suggests fa and know about IT. So then and if that's what I .

would they tell the F, A, A, that's sure.

What maybe the test is to see if they can be blind, right?

That may be the test. They dramatically failed. F, F, F, F, on that test, like everyone .

inside they are lies on that might stake.

You should do that to comply with the f. They could have flown without lights.

The lights, the biggest puzzle. Yeah, that to me that's the biggest puzzle. But again, I doubt all of them had the same lights, right? So people are seeing all kinds of different things. Sometimes people are seeing light, right? And it's it's like no duper single.

Yes, i'm looking at a picture of IT and it's not like IT IT looks like IT IT could just be atmosphere .

ic friction. The problem is like this. This is a lot of .

things like i'm looking at a picture of something where atmosphere but IT looks like I said I saw .

somebody post the picture of the starling satellites in a line which of course, yeah we know about and saying, oh my god, it's happening but .

this is what i'm worried about now that it's a national story is different. Like when I was showing up on my tiktok feed in my social feed, because i'm in new jersey, the tone of the post were different. IT was kind of like, wow, that's actually really good.

Like there were a lot of them and I was like, this is really weird, like shi be writing about this and now it's national. Now everyone's trying to get their two cents on IT and they're trying to maybe put up their own drones. And now it's like they're there are definitely not going to get the answers because now it's turning into like .

a full blown conspiring things happen all the time. The thing and I think the the age or something where everybody was seeing learns and because you like everybody went outside at night with flash is trying to see learns and every cat and reckon look like a rapid on to everybody like this, that kind of stuff pops up. Everybody's like looking for something specific. And and when they see something, their mind applies. The thing that they were freaking out .

about was the military testing. They continue .

the program as gold.

They put them in a basement now that conflating the drones exact got IT that's IT.

I mean, I think maybe lls the number of policy problems, if we sort of figure out how society could have a little bit more interest in engaging with evidence based policy making and like, let's understand things, let's think about things, and not just sort of react with projection of our stories or narratives that we, I do think would suit us or not suit us or something like that. And this does not seem like a story where evidence is really key here. And I think I would do a some favors in multiple areas of that's why i'm saying should .

to down to get some evidence. But what would you do if there was one of these flying over your house every night? Ouldn't you say this is weird that I would people I .

would do IT everybody is is doing, they're getting their own drones of flaying up there and see if they can see IT. And now everybody, this is like legal .

with the F. A, A. restrictions.

Also don't shoot at them.

I say, just the military, should you down? I not thing in the end that because .

but you you got to be careful these days.

Do you imagine even for a second, nobody is doing that?

okay. But i'm saying you're really two steps ahead. I'm saying take IT down to base level. You're an average citizen. You're in your house. This is not a national news story and there's weird stop flying over your house and your family.

What do you do? It's only weird because we don't know what IT is, but yeah, you don't do anything.

I know you're not is the little it's like there is not enough empathy. And for people who are experiencing this and it's it's real to them.

i'm also not quite sure what the this is because there seems to be so many things. I mean, if if my neighbors flying drowns over my house, that's gonna really annoying, I might want to call some authorities because that seems like they shouldn't be doing that because it's really annoying. But if it's something else and it's bigger or brighter, higher, father, than am I being affected? Well.

it's freezing. And then what you do, you could you talk to your local government of local representative and now it's bubbled up and that's it's that and now the new jersey officials are trying to get support because they don't have the power to answer the question.

So but but Emily, just a quick thing. Empathy for what? Who has been injured? What property has been damaged? Nothing has happened. People look at the the at the vapors from jets in the sky, and they think the government is poisoning everybody with the entre else.

right?

There's no need to be like to support that kind of people know, yeah, the people are looking up in the sky, which they Normally don't do and they're noticing that they're satellites and stars and things flying around and it's like, okay, stop doing that till until a single person has gotten so much as a rh from this, nobody's in danger.

That's not how modern warfare works like the reason that drones are scaries because they can drop things .

on your house.

That's why. Yeah but there are restrictions of I flying them over stadium and things because they pose a threat. So everyone agrees they pose a threats. So I don't think it's ridiculous. Said, if there are over your house, you might be like, what is this and is this a threat to me?

Well, they they do pose a threat and they don't pose a threat. Lots of drone. That's why it's a trick. It's a treaty is but I think what mike saying is like has IT actually done something that caused an injury or we just worry that IT might cause an injury? And I think you're saying the possibility that one theoretically could is sending us around the band and might is kind of like we probation go around the band unless it's actually causing an actual problem that the the threat of the danger is that little more powful.

And they seem to be they seem to be a tend lately of people worried about what might happen, like for everything like, well, what could happen? What could happen if tiktok was used by chinese to steal our laundry? What could happen? And you know, that strikes me as a popular there's a little jumpy, and I understand why people are jumpy. But yeah, I think .

until you see IT .

with your own eyes and experience that yourself, there's a lot of piece of mind and writing something off. But if it's happening to people and like I see your news casters, they go out, they say, well, I saw myself that was crazy so so is so lovely to raise something off. But i'm saying that this is .

affecting people, happen to them nothing.

However, the chinese people, what happened from that? Yeah, I mean.

I guess it's also what are we writing off IT doesn't seem like what are there's some confusion about what are we writing on that? This doesn't seem like a very tangible well, air space is .

there's free rate in our air space. We've now had an issue that popped up. There's something in the air space, and we are do not have a way to answer that question. And that's highlighting, okay.

whether or not you would be sure about these people.

new jersey.

I look, care about them. They need to understand that those things were flying before, but they didn't look up because there was new story about all the stuff.

So we found a story .

who would be the appropriate authorities say.

well, it's gone to the local officials. So the injera y governor is on IT there.

The morals county is that's .

encouraging the local FBI. And now it's up to the department of political security national FBI. The highest levels of government are are trying to handle IT. And what we ve found out is that they can handle IT. And if new jersey aside, sereno aside and everything that comes as saying new jersey that we have, our countries is not prepared for drones, and that is an issue in the modern age. And that is, I guess, what we've learned .

from the situation. I mean, that maybe true as the you know, it's worth workshopping the minds, but we're trying to workshop the might what we really should have very clear head as we approach. What are the possibilities. And our heads are not very clear right now because there's a lot of .

panic and parent, I did not have this any agenda for the show at all.

I would just like to state for direct um because I feel like i'm being accused of indifference to new jersey. I am from new jersey .

and my dad there yes yes.

So team new jersey? No, we told, I mean, of all the states that you, i'm gonna care about, that is high on my list of states, the states that I will care about.

I think we need to get space force involved. You have a space force.

They, they must have something they need something to do so so as in a california, I would point out that there's very well documented cases of very strange drone activity around military bases in california in last two years that very well documented with zealots of like reports and people interviewed everybody.

IT didn't quite become a massive theory kind of thing, but IT IT happened and it's like it's happened in other places too, and it's happened in europe as well. There's a lots of stories. And so people need understand a lot of drones flying around. Some are military, most consumer drones. There's a million consumer drones out there and people are testing f toes, which where this coming year, this can be the first year, whether can be commercial left told flights, probably starting dubai and then the year after that, it's going to be become a finality. You're going to .

turn up with your uber electronic vertical take off .

and landing so they .

do .

your name. But I .

agree .

with Emily, if we're going to shoot one down, what you do a quick because pretty soon these things are going to be flying around and know this can be four people inside. So that's going to be an interesting don't shoot .

down of these people and I think that's a good that's probably good.

Yeah, there's also another thing.

What about I stand on my case for the second.

Yeah, everybody is lobbying hard for the military to take these drones out.

yeah. But I, I, I, I would demonstrate my empathy for people in new jerk who were really, really worried that by saying, stop, wear ring, it's probably nothing. He really is probably nothing.

So please not worry. Feature IT out. I think the government .

could also do people solid by publishing high quality pictures of IT. And being like any level of clarity would show respect to the people of the country who are paying taxes, to like, to the military, to the government electing these officials, like any level of respect to help clarify the situation would be much appreciated, wouldn't be having this discussion.

And can you file a freedom of information act request for those pictures?

I I tried to take them. My guy talked to PC mag. I identified equipment I like. I posted on a reddit.

Where can I see drones at night? And people a lot of people responded where they are seeing them, and they are seeing them in the same place every night. But then when the weather is bad, you can see them as well. And I don't know. So yeah, I just think like any the lack of seriousness they're engaging with this issue is creating more conspiracy theories and is the whole situations kind of a disaster?

So you are the journalists done the story? seriously? This is yours.

Yeah yeah. I kind of had a feeling that is mine. I think it's .

mine yeah four .

years a good quiet or a good note .

you the good of this.

I always wanted to file .

a four yeah here .

is from fox news actual footage and is blank now well no it's all like cellphone cameras .

and blurry stuff and ah it's not it's not none of its sufficient thought one .

of the news crew SE had its own cameras out there is certainly going to happen. You know the only thing if I would say is florida. You're let new jersey take all the all the you know story here. You've got ta get out there and start look at for drones in the sky in florida and and then we can really, they will have something to .

new jersey are like we got to get back in this park.

I think that's what IT is.

Honestly.

jery sure isn't been on air. The man at lunch, we need to get out here and find some I mean.

these Jones are flying over very wealthy areas. I don't know if people know, but there's a huge amount of money that flows out of york city and internet jersey like large homes.

There's yeah .

there's a lot of like serious people and that they're flying over. This part is not like the jersey shore. So if if you're thinking it's like snoopy is taking IT .

doesn't take go, of course.

has i'm just setting the stage is I think .

that's what is kind the back of my mind IT doesn't make the story more incredible because like why are you going over mars? Tony jersey? What could the russians hope to get from map? I mean.

money is and i'm saying actually they're really smart because this is a very wealthy area with a military being so .

stop the people and rob the houses when they see them drive away like water. And I I just don't see the play here.

So IT doesn't actually I think what is IT called the pick lily air force space to piketon .

ini piketon ini arsenal.

okay. Is there an air force baser and arsenal?

I haven't looked into what I detail them to interview them.

and I did not hear response. I think it's there more of let them let them worry about IT, right? I mean that if you're an arsenal IT seems like you would have ways to handle this well.

I mean, the thing is that at the .

consumer drones, it's a powder deam. It's where the last of devices to take them down. It's not an air fore space .

where they store gun powder press.

okay. And what used to be the pick tiny powder deep? Yes, that's also harm to the U. S. I, M. Explosive ordinance disposal technology director.

well, what if, what if it's just the case that IT is the U. S. Military and the government is just .

lying to us like that? what? Well, the C.

I A has secret, has a lot of secret bases inside of airports abroad, and who knows, maybe the us. As well. So you .

never know this. I think we need to, as the same people, we need to recognize this. A false denial sounds exactly like a true denial. And it's sort of like what we've denied IT uh huh but they've also deny IT, maybe that because .

it's deniable, it's like they need pictures. We need to see there's a brand .

name on the high quality picture like actually like not go a hot too easily to actually become a measured and figure out how the teas out, what is ever. And that's .

what .

i'm proposing, taking some pictures, like what type of wing format are they written on them? What color are the lights? What arrangements are they in? I just feel like any level of seriousness would be so far beyond the dialogue. We now and we're just not getting that. And people are looking to their electricity officials to get that, and it's not coming and that's a failure.

You seen our elected officials, lady, here. There is little failure.

It's not that these people are idiots, it's that the government is not answering their questions and they are paying taxes and they are looking for help and they're not getting in.

But I think the the officials may be the historia as opposed to actually responding uh commonly to the historia, which what do I mean? All these people are .

going to work every day. They're taking their kids to soccer practice. They're live in their lives.

They are eating dinner. No one is running around. There is no hystErica that's tangible is just like people want to know what's going on.

Well, then Larry hogan discovers ryan.

So I mean, corner and and the defense department has acknowledged that they are hard drones flying over, pick tiny and enable weapons .

station confirmed .

sightings. And they are not.

Yes.

yes.

The D, O, D, read my article. I could see in our english s platform, but the D, O, D read my article, and then they looked to my bio page. If if you get any strange phone call.

know if you see is drawn above your house.

you'll know that your article is a success. Oh, I know. Oh.

I see people in china reading my articles. And of you, i'm on so many less, but I was like, do they are they reading because they want to know what the media is putting out about IT? Or are they reading IT because they .

wanted actually figure IT they they figured Emily for Ellen is figured IT out. Let's find out if it's any idea is interesting.

I don't think we should accept just we shouldn't just accept that there is no answer. That's ridiculous.

This is in the sky.

The answer. There might be multiple .

answers yeah and probably multiple answers.

And I wouldn't just because the federal government denies something doesn't mean IT doesn't exist. That's I mean they that you know Normal right?

So get to get a little fight in us so you can interest be like, oh, it's nothing because they say it's nothing.

So I think we need to get Better as a country at being a little bit less, uh, fast to forget about things. So these sightings have a occurred in new jersey, new york connective, maryland, massachusetts ana. And we've been over the start international important new york air base in the U K.

Uh the three in the U K. Um some of these are described as six feet in diameter. Um many of these are um reportedly have their lights off, which makes more sense spire.

So so this is a worldwide phenomenon short of right so it's so they know europe and in the us. So far I would be really surprised the U S. Isn't flying things over for an um you know we have been doing this since cold war.

Uh and so this is this is a bigger issue of seeming a spy aircraft. Uh, then just new jersey, new jersey in the news. So I I think we really do need to get to the bottom of IT and not just the us is also europe.

I think your ear explanation is probably correct, mike, which is the drone warfare is suddenly the hot topic thanks to the ukraine, russia war and that the military everywhere are working on their drunk capabilities. They shouldn't be like them up though that just .

making people that but I think some of IT as atmosphere or reflection .

from that yeah of course, the problem.

which we haven't directly touched, but we've touched on, is that posting something on social media that's a reaction sation image at this point can make you rich because you get yeah likes, you get followers. And so we have a real incentive to get this information out there. And that that does stress me out. And that almost adds to my urgency that if we're gonna regulate those technologies, if we're going to continue to poor billions of dollars into this ability for people to do this, we also have to have the ability to answer questions and stop conspiring theories like just the whole things to fail.

So if our government communications are living in a different error.

great. It's total mismatch and it's yeah it's just a lot falling through the cracks.

And and and I would like to add one additional thing, which is that if you're testing a military aircraft, there is no reason not to put lights on IT and you don't want lights in the final product. But like if you're testing IT, just a civil will fly or whatever you wanted be able to see in the sky for your own. It's a pretty .

crowded air space that you're put in your stuff in like, you know, mostly time we tested their craft over the desert where there was nobody. New jersey is not really like.

too. Yeah, nobody hit jersey.

The dense of state in the U. S. Yes.

in all sorts of ways.

Really going .

to i'm allow.

i'm allowed. I'm a jersey or I can totally go into jersey under the bus. My people.

all right, IT wasn't on the agenda, but i'm glad we covered IT because IT is a story that people are worried about and there is a tech angle to IT. And thank you only for lying for bringing this up and and making us aware. And the the police folks leave the shooting down to the law enforcement in the military.

I am sorry that I .

accidentally incited violence. Do do not start shooting in the sky is dangerous for everybody. Bullets go up, but they also come down.

We're going take a break and talk about other technical and just a little bit, I put I, Emily, in all honesty. Thank you for bringing IT up and thank you for fighting the good fight. We ought to know what this is and and cash turn IT the story .

on the story.

Stay, if I may.

close where .

they swiftly on security. Speed the skis situation. There are sixty five unknown, drown in the sky.

ridiculous. I need to go investigate this myself Better than my situation. There are now sixty. It's an X, K, C.

D carton in in real life. Alright, we'll take a break, will come back also with this. Cathedral's is great to have you.

We will talk about what's going on. A supreme court looks like that tiktok cases is going all the way, waiting for a word from scotus. Mike algan is also hero.

Great to have you machine society that A I is a news liner. We will be right back with more and just a little bit, our show today brought to you by t mobile. I have my mint mobile phone every time I get my mint mobile bill.

And I compared to the bill from other Carriers, I think, why would anybody go anywhere else? Look, I mean, I love a great deal as much as anybody else, right? But i'm not onna call through a bit of hot calls to save a few box.

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He meant mobile for details, and mobile dot comes slash. What we thank you so much for supporting our show, and we thank you for supporting the show by doing that address is that way they know, oh yes, they sound on to IT mint mobile that come slash to IT. Thank you. Mint mobile, as long as are in the silly season in for wards. The sale to the onion has now been overturned by the bankrupcy court.

Bobo .

exact it's .

been delayed. I don't know. We know exactly yeah though the deal that was going to happen is not happening, but it's not quick clear what will happen next, whether it's starting over or whether things will sort of pick up somewhere along the line.

Yeah the the bankrupt court judge Christopher a lop is in houston, said, okay, yes, there was a deal and and the onion one but no, we're gonna go back he instructed the point to point of trusty to come up with an alternative solution. I don't know what the alternative would be. Part of the problem is that the onions offer had less cash in IT.

Then the offer from the other interested party, which is really just, let's be honest, the front for info wars and the sand hook parents, remember they they won the lawsuit against alex Jones and info wars because he kept saying that IT was a fake shooting and Sandy hook and so forth, one one point four billion dollar judgment forcing alex ones into bankrupcy selling off his assets uh and then the families talked to the onion and said, okay, we we would prefer for information to go to a satire site then to first united american companies, which is essentially a bitter affiloir with alex Jones. We don't want to see info worst day on the air. So we're willing to take less cash up front, uh, because we think this is a Better owner.

The total value of the onions between seven million dollars, including one in three quarters million dollars in cash put up by the global tetrahedron, the company that owns that owns the onion. And it's funny, some of the cash coming from the families, they essentially opted to put a portion of their earnings from a defamation judgement towards the onions bit. So there they're sending a very clear single.

They want the union first in an american offered three and a half million of cash, twice as much cash. The expert who advised the trustee said the combined bid with the families was a Better. Choice and initially that's what happened, but now the bankrupcy judge says is, no, he didn't like that news. Me send you back which sounds to me I agree with you, Cathy. He's not saying no, the onion can't have IT but IT sounds to me like he's putting his sum on the scale for.

uh, united first. Think there's a question of whether he's allowed to that the trust, the trust, these choice. There were two. One, there are two things that kind of catch some attention. One is the way that the deal was put together because there's a concession is supposed to pure cash, right?

Um but the second thing is that I was I guess they did a sealed auction and they did IT with a single bit and nobody I got to go back and stuff but IT sounds like talking to some experts that that is not unusual, that is not a typical and that none of these things really um that the trusty didn't act in a way that prompts the second guessing and they keep referring to um something either called or a kin to the business judgment rule where you got a give IT up to the best judgment of the person running this and give them some little way or also never be able to accomplish anything and that there's no a lot of observers or like I don't see what the trusty did that would prompt the second guessing. I mean, you want there to be second guessing if the trusty does something really terrible and you really kind of does disadvantages the parties, but nobody y's suggesting that. And um I think a lot of observers are really kind of surprised because I don't see why there was an avenue for complaint and having complaint affect us in. Anyway.

I think the solution is obvious. They should a launch a kick starter. I personally would add hundred .

box and I think I think raise they can raise more.

just have an open auction and have be the highest bitter and there would be no controversy.

Yeah but then who would .

that be that would own IT on?

No, yeah.

yeah. What everybody wants this?

You run into some problems, I think, with securities issues, with how you finance a purchase like that, like donations to the Young, like like, yes, functionally, that sounds bad. I think legally that may be a hard thing to achieve. But you know maybe that next.

I just there are so many shady deals that go down in this country. I don't see why this one. I mean, it's the bar and the standards are so all over the place. Um that's a huge bomber. I mean, I would love to see this go through and i'm so sad.

I think I told like get the same audience right they get they have the list right of the audience they would be serving so that there would be gold I mean.

that was speaking, yeah. I mean, I think we need more humor writing in general. And I don't think maybe the judge feels like as a biased case or something, but I should just be considered as two neutral parties like I know these parties are cute characters and themselves, like the info wars on the end are just massive personal alist far as media companies. But you should be considered neutral. And I don't if there's any reason the judges is reacting based on the content on either side, I don't think that's fair.

I mean, let's think of the think of the lying sociopaths have to be protected.

yes. Think of the city paths, yes. Well, I think the issue with this one is john himself isn't happy and Jones is also trying to sell his supplements.

And then there seems to be shell company. Us were like why word we taken seriously and then there's the allegations, the shell companies that are really just him like alter functionality, although he goes. So it's messy. And then there's a question of whether the judge is treating everybody is neutral and maybe they shouldn't be treated as neutral, which is also a thing. Well.

he's Jones, as I watched a little bit of the live streaming he did right after he was announced that the onion one, the bid he was on, he was claiming IT was a deep state conspiracy to limit the free press. I know, of course, so that his perspective.

and so in the judge and any bankrupt judge should be doing, is looking for the best deal that returns the most money for the the creditors that the sanny hok families should he consider the sanny hook family's expressed interest I don't know. He there was a two day hearing and he was fairly I rate that IT was not a transparent bidding process, whatever that means, right?

He didn't like the sealed bid, IT sounds like, but i'm not entirely sure and not a bank proxy expert. But from the commentary I was reading um people seem to think that like there was no reason that that was not a reasonable way to go forward. 对 ah IT .

also because of this hearing， we ve got the opportunity to car from lawyers for x that come here on musk uh twitter replacement a saying you can't you're on they can't sell the x accounts owned by alex Jones and info wars because x owns them which I think for many of us was just a reminder that you do not own your social media accounts. The social media company who runs the platform seems at least to think they own the accounts and certainly probably do I don't know what do you think Cathy does x own as alex Jones former twitter account.

So it's one of these things where um the motivations behind excess choices may be suspect, but the they may be right anyway. Um I think any social media platform is reasonable concerned that there could be contribute like a property right and anything that they are offering right. And I think they are concerned with the way the bankrupcy was processing that was that he was being treated as an asset that was um that in some ways had a property right context to IT.

So I we have to IT to tweet account on x got com and I own the trade d mark to twit um but IT is that the assertion that if I decided, I don't know, to sell the twitter account that I couldn't, this happens all the time. Alex will have bought at alex well.

so I think a couple of things are happening. Um one is I know you'd have to look at the terms of service um but the terms of service generally seem to the terms of service generally seem assignable that the contract is assignable so that if you started the account and you want to the cell, your media empire to somebody else that whoever bought IT who obviously is interested in continuing the media empire um would want all the things that kind of come with that and why wouldn't maybe able to essentially step in your shoes to now be the contracting party with ex?

I suspect that if I announced and I might announce this, I would like to sell our at twitter account for a dollar fifty so um and I did that actually would not stop me. And so you know we know that you can't sell IT for a doll fifty IT feels like this is then waiting in on the entire process.

Well, I think both .

me remember X, X kept in for wars on the air when he was kicked off tube.

Both things, I think, are true. I think x reasonably wants to make sure that there is not a property right construed in a handle, because word things can happen where they start ending up obligated in ways is that are going be very uncomfortable for them.

And let's say, not just them, but you know any social media platform or any platform, what's ever no, wait, you've offered somebody a handle and now that person has a property right in the handle, that is a big deal, but they are generally thought to be assignable. And there is a thing of do they have any business stepping in and um in pinching on that assign ability? I don't know.

We'd have to look at the terms of service, and that's the thing where maybe the motivations are less than you. Pure thing. If they take IT back, can they assign IT to somebody else? And that's .

the kind of thing, Jones, right?

That would be a strange thing because somebody has trademark rights and info wars that is, I think, an illegal act discharge. The couple .

couldn't x couldn't reason take at IT and give IT to Cathy glass because I have a trademark and so that I have some interest in that. It's a little more complicated than nap.

But and he's done that he's taken handles the people have had from decades and and taken the way and really and redone IT but maybe there's not like .

findable trademark rites gets many of these people. It's always rules for the not me is there .

a way to think about this that in my head i'm trying to think is it's similar to like if i'm a commercial property owner, so i'm x and I own like a physical commercial building and a business uses my space in in that business, sublets the space to someone else and like brokers a deal, but still the building owner sell owns the building because that a fair analogy like you're because you're kind of using you're using their platform at to me, they kind of own IT because it's on their servers. They can take IT down at any time, ultimately their fingers on the trigger in your legal renter on the platform.

I'm of saying yes because I don't want that analogy to accidentally communicate too much. But that is kind of what I was saying in terms of the terms of service that there's a contract and the contract would be assignable. And in the scenario, you're describing their some assignable ly of rights, but the landor's stolen the building.

And what you have is a contractual relationship slightly different than your example because I was a sublessor. But you can actually sometimes like oh, you want to move out, you can sometimes assign your rates as the tenant. You assign your least you assign the contract .

yeah even a commercial situation also, you you're leasing the space, but you still own the business as a trademark so you could move to a new space and IT would follow you. But ultimately, if your business is a restaurant and it's taking place in this physical space, that is a very important part of the business. I guess you could relocate like maybe you could go to blue sky, you know anything. But I think x is a very serious ownership stake in anyone in all of our content on that platform. I think it's a almost a private exercise to thank .

you own IT you don't?

yes. yeah. Well, they don't own our tweet feels .

like they do I me that fears like they do.

But I don't I think I haven't look at the time service in a while. I look at the terms of service in a while. But most of the time of the terms of service, as I understand them, are written in a way that says you own members.

you. Given us a really expensive license because they obviously need to hold back enough rights that they can actually like continue to publish your stuff and not run into the ay problems. But they don't tend to own them. I don't think they want to owe them, although now they kind of want to own them because they want to train for uh, the A I but that's a whole other argument about whether you actually need to one IT to have that happened anyway.

But um yeah and he's also making IT up as they go along like we had the entire industry that made IT up as we went along as as like social media became a thing and internet becomes a thing and we had to kind of learn stuff, but we kind ended up settling some stuff and then kind of must shows up and pretends that nobody is ever figured out anything before him and does things are fresh and uh you know so it's one of these things. He's wrong. He's probably poorly motivated but accidentally somewhat right yeah exactly.

And I I also think that you know elon mosque hates IT when there's a new story problem, new story that is not about him. So well, he's going to have .

to fight with Donald j over that one. That's gonna a tough one. yeah.

Rumor has their fight is we call IT.

The show last time was on twit we call IT that they were gonna a falling out and we were like taking .

over and they have a falling out I said, june, it's all there's .

leaks that .

there's .

leaks about suffers .

and you well, i'm on the books for june well yeah ah the difference coming .

from his wife as well.

So I had a weird brush with ex recently that might be worth discussing I might right article about i'm not sure. But so a couple of months ago I noticed that actually responded to journalist emails for one time. I was .

about like a so now they're .

responding. That was a couple months ago, and in last week I was feeling gatzi and PC mag now is go owned with sea. And there is a bunch of publications under if Davis, so we're having a big party. C, S, I invited twitter as well.

You can all come on. Thank you. I know, no.

he's going to be there because who wants to go but if you're going, you can have some free drinks but I emailed x, just like press at X I was like, hey, you guys want to come and .

what have .

I got a response. And the head of media strategy wants to come. And he also wants to coffee with me in new york this week.

That's an admission that they read the emailed before .

they set up the also, he said he was hired recently. So IT seems like x recently hired the head of media strategy, who is now actually engaging with the media.

But I leave. You invite him to a party.

Emily Y, I invited to a party. He invite him. Me to coffee. I feel like me, how i'm china is out. What's going on because of go to coffee .

before you write an article about this? Okay.

the coffee. Yeah, exactly. I email him and remind him about the coffee because I don't like a date final. I don't know if that means of elan has been eating about how the presses useless know the mainstream press garbage twitters and new press citizen journalists are.

The new press has been his mo for last two years, but now they are kind of having some user issues potentially. Maybe they realized they do need the press, but there is definitely a difference. And why i'm seeing in my inbox versus what elon is projecting.

So I don't know. Very interesting.

So there's they might be warming up to the Price because I realized I need the press, I don't know.

but all the coffee in .

the toilet .

and they are just tanking. So I think he'd like to continue to to toe that line. Well, some mutinously trying to do something to turn around the use.

I mean, usually when you hire someone is to solve a problem or accelerate progress in a certain area. So suggest to me they think this needs attention.

Is is he easily about the citizen journalism .

thousand years because .

he keeps advocating for policy that would be really bad for like, really bad for his business.

Well, as mike said, he wants press up, but about him. So if it's about him .

and it's positive like that.

if it's not about him and it's not positive ever, if it's about him and not positive, IT doesn't like.

well, i'm looking like the section to thirty stuff like he should be like i'm not really happy of this role in government, but I should be like like a breathing a side every leaf at OK. We've got the best day we can Better ever have for section to thirty like with the year of the White house. And that's not the way is turning out at all.

He advocates against the E. V. Legislation too. I think we're foolish to think he's really thinking straight like thinking like someone who needs more money. He really doesn't. It's different game for him.

Yeah no, I looking at this and regarding him as an economically rational actor is not the frame like what he does.

legacy opinions of him that need to be seriously.

It's a good, very nice way to put IT, very nice way to put IT right. We're going take a little break when we come back. The federal appeals court has declined to block the ban on tiktok.

Uh, they did that on friday, so now it's up to the supreme court or nothing. January nineteen, the day before inauguration day, tiktok will either be sold or somehow magically shut down. We've talked about that when we come back with Kathy gillis, as you might have gathered, an attorney. Cg cancelled that commons, her website and Chrissy, right detector and for the copia foundation and is admitted to to what do you call IT uh advocate before the supreme court you could member .

of the supreme court bar but um and also the bars of hope in other court. That means i'm allowed to file stuff .

there perfect. So we're we're going to lobby you to file something about drones just a second. Also with the seventy .

four and who is definitely not cleared, justified by the supreme court and therefore is sparring with gadi.

No， no, don't spr. It's okay. You can disagree. This isn't spiring. This is conversation .

bound over new jersey.

Yeah, i'd like lands with most recent x post. Where is the new jersey guide to aircraft identification? Show that to us?

Oh, see you guys, i'll agree with him. Joke is on you.

Basically, it's a picture of variety of airline aircraft as solo ez, all of which are labelled thrown from the seven sixty seven to the iranian mothership.

Drone was embarrassing for you guys. So sorry.

Yes, we're on the same side as elan musk. I never thought i'd say that also with a mike algan of machine society.

And like coffee, I am admitted to most of the a yes. I mean.

I tell you, I remember going into the pool bar. I don't remember coming out though.

Ology of the word bar really is the same. Yes, oh yes, yeah, yes. You stand before .

the court bar, right? yeah. There literally was a bar .

and a whole bunch of these context, and the context of just evolved in their own sort of realm.

judge ripping at a bar. Yes, show today brought you by those great folks at sharp fy. And I have to say, right up front, I have, I have a dog in this unit because my son solve, hank uses sharp fy to sell assaults.

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Um take does that mean apple and google pull em off the stores? Is that sufficient moist lives tiktok on my device? I'm sure a lot of people will.

Do you block traffic from the tiktok I P address? Is, what do you do? Sport court, will they? So first, all they haven't wait in, but will they offer? So you think will they give give this hearing?

Well, the first thing that states uh coming to for is timeline control. So um they they .

have to step in on an emergency basis at the right one.

So tiktok when and ask the dc circuit like couldn't it's a little confused what they ask for but they basically said, could you call a time out um and give us a chance to you get our petitions together and figure out our next steps they .

said to the appealed court, if you don't block IT, the supreme courts can have to put on their shadow docket .

right .

and respect for the supreme court's vital role this court regreted interm injection that labels a more deliberate Normally process they just trying to stop the clock and and the lower court said, no but the lower .

court well and let so so not forget the lower court is the appeals court when this law was written, IT was written in a way that bypass the district court and said, if hearing, if any, there's any issue over this law. IT has to go straight to the D. C. circuit. And you know, on the one hand, there's something to handy with saying what the with this whose jurisdiction the dispute would be in because of the we didn't want this to go to texas and said in the fifth circuit where everything is very crazy down there um but we got a crazy result that was the dc circuit too. They said the most person minute .

this is kind of surprising to me, a lay person. They said, there's no fifth element. I'm a first amendment issue at all.

And a lot of our contributors here have argued, what are you talking about? Don't the people post on tiktok? American citizens opposed on tiktok have a right a first moment right to post on tiktok.

There's a variety of first amenden interest at the court overlooked um one of them is that tiktok itself would appear to have a first amendment right um certainly the U S. Subset um and possibly also even the foreign entity and what is the lens by which um the court should how quickly and easily should the action display SE any first amount claims that tiktok has but meanwhile um users of tiktok have their own first amendment interest in being able to communicate through IT and also to consume content through IT that there's right to read issues i've talked about right to read in other context on the show before.

And here's one instance, where is relevant do uh users of tiktok have the right to receive information via tiktok? Because IT in pines on their ability to consume information if tiktok goes away um you know goes away yet the compulsion of the government uh and so in the court was overlooking those first semma interest and also the ones that users like to speak through IT. And what happens to that speech shift? Tiktok goes away.

The dc circuit said that that IT satisfies a legal standard known as strict scrutiny that has to be met for government restrictions. Speech to stand, quote, the act was the combination of extensive bypasses, and actually by congress and by successive presidents, I guess, successive means. Trump and biden, yes. IT was carefully crafted to deal only with control by a foreign adversary, and IT was part of a broader effort to counter a, by the way, there is some question on this next statement, a well substantiated national security threat, as far as I know, that court was not offered any of the secret information that the intelligence services gave congress in the president. So I don't know what they're talking about. They basically said are, well, you say there's a substantial national security threats, so we're just going to take IT is written posed by the people's of china under again quoting under these circumstances the provisions of the actor before withstand the most searching review where is no first member protection in all well, the supreme court, you think do the same thing, Cathy.

I think the stand .

standard for, uh you know national security there, there's a precedent for that in national in the case of national security limiting what foreign nationals could do in the us. That doesn't.

That's not how hidden scrutiny is supposed to work. This isn't how hide and scrutiny is supposed to work. This is a problem, irrespective of tiktok itself, that the way the court reached extremely trade analysis is we do not want this president on the books.

If I were going to be china and I wanted to really stick IT to america, I would get to this point and abandoned the appeal because we have just broken first amendment law in the united states of this is what what's that is the the court didn't actually decide that strict curt applied. But I decided that hypothetically, you know, if we could if this could pass a script screen ate test, then we won't worry about IT. So they used IT more as kind of the hypothetical o like worse a scenario, if I can pass ict scrutiny, then is definitely okay.

As opposed to us arguing about what was the appropriate level and then thinking, well, I pass intermediate scrutiny, but I didn't pass strict scrutiny. So do we get the result wrong? So here they're we are going to decide that the ban is okay and we're going to give IT a test under the most um strict of uh way of looking at this and doing IT with the way that has the most the least left for the government.

We've decided that the government is totally fine and IT did IT by basically IT calling into analysis tricks certainly, but IT really reads like a rational basis test. And rational basis is like the easiest test for the government to clear of know that the government have uh, good you know something reasonable I want to do accomplish to this reasonably come. And we're close to a lot accomplishing IT. That's not the official.

And to be clear, they're not ruling in favor of or against tiktok. You're saying we're not gonna posit that this is the congress has been clear that they wanted the step by january or and nineteen and we're not gona posit the supreme court has two ways to an effect ban and tiktok one is just not to accept IT right? They could just say, yeah we're not onna answer you re we don't need to rule on this the the appeals court stands, although doesn't sound like what this appeals court was really thinking.

Well, it's also the cell. People say bank is is more dramatic, but there's also the cell.

Well, dance is said we're not onna cell. Yes.

the chinese government has .

said even if fight dance sold, we're not going to allow them to solve the algorithm which means if somebody like Frank Moore k comes along, he launched a twenty billion dollar bid, dubai tiktok for america. I just even if you want, he wouldn't get the algorithm. So what do you get?

Get the uses. I have decided that old, it's it's not a ban. It's not a for sale.

It's just a or totally find nothing to see here. No, that's totally something to see here. This is a real constitutional. This is a really aggressive thing that the government has done that the the court is looking at looks like fine. They're incredibly different title to the a to the government and a judgment about what the national security problem was.

But it's also being extremely deferential, even that even the one of the stated purposes of the government is to control the content of speech that people end of interacting with. Like I understood this, maybe I still hated IT and think it's on constitutional. When I was just about the data slippage of what you know tiktok is, tiktok is probably everything that is being accused of in terms of IT gets user data.

and that sends that user data to people .

who shouldn't have the user. All right?

China can buy that data from data brokers in the U. S. Just like anybody else, right?

So but if that's the way the law was just then I think its still doesn't pass constitutional scrutiny because um you know that's not nearly tailor to solving a data problem by forcing the entire platform to be divesting. Um but that's not the only thing that they're trying to do. They don't like that china is covertly affecting what information people can interact with. They don't like the information that people are interacting with. They are trying to go up the content of information of.

then shut down C, C, T, V or R, T, which are propaganda. Ms, for .

rush says A, B, B, and there really, no.

no, what doesn't because it's .

not a foregone adversary. Yes, IT is well .

on one small step, one small step that, yeah, you know, our president collect needs to do when he's an office and suddenly burden is an adversarial we don't get c anymore there yeah .

that's that's a little I mean.

no, there's no limiting principle .

that was clear.

Who are adversity?

Are there's a superpower conflict brewing between the united states in china, in taiwan, they're going to invade taiwan and we are going to defend iwan. There they are like us. It's it's a superpower adversaries that's going to involve information warfare.

yes. And for the chinese communist party to just determine A U. S. Public opinion on this issue is unacceptable. And so so it's it's still in the realm of potentiality assume we can assume I mean, personally, I would favor keeping tik talk around but having like a kill switch on IT because the ability to track the location of special no military people who are using tiktok and whatever else who knows as I haven't thought about that that deeply but clearly there's a capability.

It's already banned um uh for military government and IT as I should .

but we talked about assembly c information warfare where all of the U. S. Social networks are banned in china.

The chinese people have, that's the difference between us in china. Don't want to be .

more like I can't .

allow foreign adversary to to just freely spread propaganda. The united states.

yeah IT doesn't to because there is no limiting principle to say what is the difference and who's going to decide the first amenda doesn't have uh, national security exemption to IT. This is something that's been invented.

But even if we think that national security exemption could time pass strip scrutiny, um this is so brought in the way that they did IT that they're deciding that the this government has decided IT doesn't like certain content. And so it's trying to look for leverage to control the content that american citizens get to interact with. Its very thing that is trying to do the first amendment has make no law and they're trying to make a law that does exactly what the first amendment make no law for.

If we do compare why we're not, you know at the same on both both countries, it's because china doesn't have the first AManda restraining its government from doing things like this. We do. And this was so tightly analyze to figure how the government could just get this little way to go do this to tiktok. There is no limiting principle that would keep IT from being able to do this to any other content produced by anybody else. And there's also a right that americans have to be able to get access information from abroad, including people who may not necessarily .

that's a kin to the to to to the um you know the people's republic uh the the the the chinese army having a first amendment right to all the passwords of all the military companies in the united states or something like that. It's like if there there's a point of they don't speech.

I don't even that's not an allegest anything going on here.

My point is that, that things change. You have different relationships with uh in terms of information with adversaries then you do with with everybody else. And so in you know the question, question is what is an what is an adversarial relationship and how do you define that and what are the rules around that? It's certainly it's got to be uh within the realm of the first amendment, uh for for there to be some controls on adversaries, at least during times of warfare, war, right with those adversaries, for them to spread propaganda, actually gather. There has to be the history doing .

that in the united states. Right after the first a member was passed, they passed the alien and tradition x and seventy eighty eight, which forbade falls, some malicious statements about the federal government .

from alliances. Yeah.

I and that always done this.

We did IT, but we didn't. I mean, that happened and I never actually went off the books. But IT was so massively unpopular at sank john Adams's presidency, he was a political nowaday at that point. This isn't something that certainly, and we've got a hundred plus years of modern first experimenters prudence. And this is completely out of step with that juries protest and the test that they did itself with how they analyze strict scrutiny of whether IT was uh, compelling purpose and narrowly tailored even if you wanted to credit for the compelling purpose, IT was not narrowly .

but is there no allowance for the fact that social media and A I based algorithms designed to know that that can be tweet secretly without any to the algorithm is different. It's not rely.

It's IT is not different. The only thing that first amendment prudence says we've we've been penned on foreign actors when IT come to spectrum and and that falls into the because veterum is different because it's finite, the idea. Otherwise, there are cases that actually make clear that americans have their own interest in their own right to be able to consume information, including information that's not produced from america. And IT is too easy to declare .

anybody an enemy. Let me I M at there is a point of saying we trust americans. They should be able to read anything from anybody, and we trust them to make the right decisions. And who is that? We certainly don't trust our government to make the decision about what we can and cannot see, right, mike, we don't want that.

And that's been .

very clear with the yeah .

so so when I say the social media algorithms, especially a super algorithm, the one on tiktok is different from allowing the japanese to distribute pf lets in the united states in war or two or something like that. It's obviously different, clearly different. And the problem is that the laws don't reflect that difference, where still ramazan around in the dusty old laws to try to govern something that's critically different from what understand .

what you're saying. And this is a larger issue, which is that somehow social media has weaponed speech, and that suddenly, in every respect, that suddenly, and this kind of leads to things like the australian law forbidding people under sixteen from participating social media, or or in fact, we have laws like that. And I think can tucky in texas IT seems to me that it's appropriate for us to draw bright line that says government shouldn't decide what we guess not so.

So I think the solution to all the social media algorithm problems is very, very obvious and clear. Like, are they like a newspaper? Like, are they like the telephone? Well, I think they should be both.

I think there should be a clearly defined feed that required by law for all of them to say, okay, here's the algorithms yna ally sorted or human sorted content, which is here's kind of sense where newspaper and here's the feed, wait here, me out, and here's the feed of the people you followed. You get every single thing that you, that they post in order with nothing removed and nothing added. All right? And those two things need to be separate right now. People just blindly open the thing and and they receive the opinion that comes at them from whoever determine the algorithm. And this is a real problem.

No, I actually seems fair. What about that? what? That wouldn't be a restriction of speech.

You would just merely be a solution to .

the problem you at all.

And he was people mike would choose the algorithm .

for you understand.

probably even .

be a clear training, a choice right? Not made.

What about that, Cathy?

Absolutely not hard. no. And even this supreme court would say no first. Well, it's already come close to analogize ing IT to the newspaper IT has a new Thomas and the leader in gorsedd. A little not on board with that.

But but is getting there A C, L, U versus reno? Made to clear that internet counted as the first amendment protected media space, h communication space as anything offline we had. And what you're talking about is just one small thing would basically disrupt everything that happens online and offers the medical perspective we have on IT.

This is not a small thing you are describing. You are talking about basically making the internet and in a first amendment, freezing for the government to regulate as A T fit. And good luck having any free speech, any complaint about any powerful people, any government, any democratic organization.

If that was the rule, there's a reason that we make the government big style of what content is consumed by people and what they can express and what they can assume and they can be associated with, and how they can see IT and how other people can present IT. The reason the first amendment says no is because that's a good way to make sure that you don't have any democracy anymore. So no, that's not a small thing.

Everything my muted, my are muted. Mike.

you talking, but nothing's coming.

right? Sorry.

I won't been a great time for a meter talk.

I go here then you, Emily, must .

act .

as an extreme .

example. Is anything but the open free internet? Is the elon musk showed one four seven, he is his first amendment rights that's being a protected and should be right.

But that's an example. Like these world gardens are not the open en internet. Those are two different things. And if somebody y's publish, if somebody y's determining what opinions are being published, right? That's just like the opped section in the new york times and and it's it's nothing like just like the open internet.

And that's why I think there should be one feed that's like the elon must show and the other feed that's the open internet. You were, you select what you hear from and who you want to hear IT from. This is these things are different and and the whole algorithm make problem.

I think like you got a problem because now you have the government telling you on mosque, a private individual, what to do with his company, a private company. And I think, I think that what I don't want to put words in Kathy's mouth, no one needs to, but it's a .

slippery slope. You do. But of course, he can allow the publication of child abuse material. He can't .

allow this in germany.

He can't even show a swaths a we're .

i'm i'm not defending german law going to take issue with the fact that german, he doesn't have the first to men and we get some, you know, they can arrest opposition leaders for having said the wrong things. So no.

i'm is the I I agree with you that is one of our most valuable strengths in this country is is free speech. And I understand that IT sounds like in your opinion in any abridge ment of of absolute freedom of speech. Is a slippery slope that's problematic.

What do you mean to me? I mean, yeah, yes, I generally do. The reason we have strict scrutiny is for the very select things where that maybe the world needs to be different. You, the government is, has a thread, a very tiny middle .

in order to do IT. No, no. I mean.

that's no security might be a compelling reason, but IT doesn't answer the question until itself. And then IT also to be alert. So for instance, in the example I was just brought up, um he must must and twitter have some obligation to uh police for season but even that is a more complex or policy argument and legal requirement like they only have the police what they know about.

They don't have the police prospectively and there's a reason why you wouldn't want them to anyway. We essentially relitigating the last thirty years of internet law, which has found that the first amendment applies online and has to apply IT online in a ratio vely badd way. And that the fact that occasionally we might have thread the needle for regulation that can survive strict scrutiny does not mean that the government gets to help itself to any .

sort of content I gets to get OK. I really appreciate .

catches perspective as well as mix. My god feeling is that this is the right thing to do, the what is being happening to tiktok, because this is the only thing that I have seen, be bipartisan, had bipartisan support in this extremely divided country that we have. I think that if both sides agree, this is the way there is really something there.

And it's a true shame that most americans don't have education on cybersecurity. Don't know why china is a threat, why everything is behind smoking mirrors. But I think there is enough here that there is a real important thread and to me, it's less of a free speech issue and more of a cybersecurity, national security issue. And um I think that I see a lot of people on my tiktok feed who are making a lot of money off of tiktok like creators who who are advocating .

agains the son wouldn't have A I don't .

think that's a reason to keep some thing. I'm sorry, like it's I know we like IT, but readings, because you are making money.

has nothing to do with .

the making money. And this is the that why I appreciate .

your perspective cathos. What I see, the conversation among Young people is completely elon formed and why china is a threat and why these types of things do have my partition support. And I think that .

is a real tiktok, super pro, china and and the chinese version of tiktok, by the way, and cattle, I know this is irrelevant. They are not, they don't have a verse men, but the chinese version of tiktok is like super constructive.

And h exactly. They're feeding. They are pumping our stuff to. They know, I don't know, maybe they don't know this, but IT is affecting our mental help.

That is shaping how people we can speak, we can speak, how we need to speak and discover new ways and teach ourselves new things because we have the first department protecting our ability to protect .

the platforms to give us the other of detail.

things that free protecting, free speech is protecting. Tiktok speeches is .

talking about that.

It's not about a company. It's about the first amendment law in order to stick IT to tiktok. And the court was agreed with you that the whole quimby's of democrats, republicans who actually Green necessarily for the same reason, some of them just didn't like IT because they don't like the kids today are on tiktok.

And some of them those kids were talking about ways that didn't like their politics. It's a really convenient way of sticking IT to the kids who are speaking out against their politics. If you take away the platform that they were speaking on.

many.

many, many platforms you .

can speak on, you don't want.

I think all of had a chance to say our point of view. And I pretty clear there's no it's difficult, let's put IT that way. It's also it's also clear .

that we don't .

know how the supreme court's gna rule on this because it's kind of a wild guard these days.

It's also clear that we're not even talking about why they planed and why international security. I don't know know .

why that's the part of the problem. The drones .

having been really .

give they're thinking that merely said, well, we know IT is you just have to trust us. What if but I agree, I think Kathy is a really strong point, which is that the first amendment is a very, very important part of our politics and and needs to be protected. But I think we've all made our points. I don't think we've come to a resolution and I don't know we will I will be very interesting, does sound like this is something the supreme court .

should rule on IT. Should I mean, I let me I am frustrate about the policy decision in this argument because I think the policy is, yes, this is bad, but let me just frame IT this way. IT changed fundamentally the way first members credence behaved.

And IT changed IT in a way that if we're going to be able to say no to the government trying to set content policy for us, our ability to do so as much weaker. So even if you think that, okay, tiktok, fine, let's say everybody agrees and they're bad and they they should feel bad to go away. Um clearly, that's not gonna the case on all other types of internet expression that we're going to have going for.

It's never been the case in the past and there's certainly no reason to suspect we're gonna IT. Now I mean, we're not going to get that much by ye shout of what's going on with you know the politics that we're heading into and this hurt the ability for people to say something other than what the government likes. That is a problem. And to itself, IT really broke a lot of president and to broke the the strict straining test and .

will be IT will be bad. Tried you tried to change subject of value and effort but I just want say that that that um are what you're saying that you wouldn't mind so much or you would find IT in supported first to have a law that essentially accomplished the same thing but did IT in a different way that that that protected the uh future uh unintended consequences or just the outcome is the problem.

I not internally sure I understand the question.

I think don't have a free speech issue, but still get rid .

of tiktok .

with such a way as IT opens up the door to all kinds of horrible but but IT is there way to write a lot for the outcome of tiktok going away that could be done in such a way that would protect um uh the first moment in the future.

So I I don't want to say IT in terms of twitter tiktok going away. But there were two things that the government wanted. There were two concerns that the government had. One was the data slippage, and one was the covertly manipulating the content that were exposed to the second one. I don't think in anyway, ship perform can survive first amens scrutiny because IT inherently was trying to interact with what the content policy well.

So I think that to doing from the outset in the first part, I think it's doomed when the way they wrote the law had just such a catastrophic effect to IT. Like basically you ban tiktok and and that's going to have speech harms. But the data slippage, there's you know I think some legitimate policy issues, they are, as we were just discussing .

a lot of time hiding some the algorithms with the other .

partner in terms of the data slippage answer makes question yeah, I think there's things that the U. S. Government could do to address the data sort page, like actually having a comprehensive uh, you know, data protection policy. Now you can write them really badly, which have first among and impacts. But I think that is a needle you could thread IT would justify IT and will take care of a lot of the concerns that people have with what the problem is that yeah.

talk is chinese. Unfortunately, even though that the public may be more concerned about the data solar page, from a national security perspective, ninety five percent of the national security threat is the other one is the like.

China and russia both use extra com to do the same thing. They use facebook to do the same thing. They can help in facebook .

as a result, if they don't have control. The algorithms of chinese law says that basically, if if we want to, we can go into any chinese company, and we can look at all the data, see what's happening and make changes. And like this.

let's say, elon musk sides that he's going to favorite chinese content or russian content on his side. What would we do about that?

Well, I mean, I don't I think that that's another that's another issue that we would have to figure out what h what's happening there.

But I think it's is protected right to do so well.

what if banning tiktok is the right thing, like we haven't even explored that. We're just tiktok apologists. I mean.

we there's both of the I don't think that .

this deal is the right thing. Why why do we have no support for that?

H, I mean, not everybody support did I mean, some many people are very common because people like tiktok.

they like, I watched so much tiktok, it's like, I need to get up tiktok. I like IT. But people, you know, their sons are making money on tiktok. Like everyone here is so enchanted with tiktok. What if there is .

a problem not enchanted with tiktok?

I don't care.

I never defending IT to the death. I am defending. I'm defending the first moment because IT isn't just tiktok that will fall. There is no limit in principal to what they do to tiktok in this legislation and what the court and any other platform and speech that any that the government wants to turn to next IT IT will look a little but different, but not in any mean full wake. This greece, the kids.

including on like even the point .

of N N that to get a foreign adversary. And there's nothing about what the way they defined here that makes me think this one.

Emily, isn't IT conceivable .

that south korea will become a foreign adversary and north korea become our under a president trip. And if that were the case.

you wouldn't be able to .

buy samsung tvs. I feel then, yes, we may feel like the to talk to against IT is that you .

have to give us evidence that IT is.

say, the government needs to give us the evidence. That's what they always the problem is they think it's probably a national security issue to release IT. But I mean, I have reported on so many shady things from china is out rage's. China is an absolute threat and I feel like we are losing that thread.

That is true. So the thing is. I think, you know, that's what I meant about a long play, that if china can cause us to give up a first amendment. Tes, because I was using them in a way that I think wasn't good.

That is an interesting long play.

but that's kind of where the decision left us.

So here we see I can shift IT.

Just so first, i'd like to say that salt hang doesn't need tiktok y's killing on the instagram. The other thing the other point I want to make is that is that I think I think all our points of view are clear. But I would I would love to know, Kathy, what you think the supreme court is actually going to do.

I I mean who who who knows with these particular judges, but I think they i'm hoping they will, at least by time. And so if we have to do this, we have the shadow docket. I'm hoping they will, at least by time, because this is there are principles in law. And granted, this court hasn't did all that supportive .

of the interesting is, if they buy one day, exactly present, triple be present the next day.

even if even if they rule on the nineteen trumpets, you do some executive order that i'll have to go through the courts on the stuff. He's already his already announced that he's going to be more tiktok. And he was when he tried to ban IT when he .

was president.

So let me let me go .

back to Emily's point because it's kind of like one of the things i'm trying to argue. The government can be arbitrary with what he likes one day, what IT doesn't like another day. And if we allow the government to ever show up and say, well, based on the way we feel right now, we're going to control online speech, that's a problem .

because .

of the constitution. The constitution says stay out .

of IT because you're gonna change your of how the per I agree and I I agree .

when I appreciated. I just think I am suspicious that there is such it's such a popular opinion to hate the tiktok ban or there's too much consensus .

OK compared to the .

consensus in the government. There's a real gap. And i'm i'm uncomfortable why everyone wants to keep IT that and then the government on both sides is like actually is like one of the biggest national security issues. So where how .

do you bit to Emily? The government on the right doesn't like IT because the sensor conservative say consents or conservative speech.

Yeah I mean, kids today we're like organizing .

and the left doesn't like IT because I I forgot why the left doesn't like IT, but they don't agree and why they want to take talk. They agree they to talk that right there should tell you something .

a one of the things to be aware of is pretext um IT is very easy for sensorial government to use pretext and national security is a really is a little good man that's very easy to deploy.

It's protect the women, protect the children and protect our national borders.

I mean, I think an answer to well, I think in the entertainment point is like I could believe I I mean, i'm not arguing with you unnecessarily of is tiktok good? Tiktok may be bad and maybe an overall bad thing. Um I can accept that, but the government doesn't get to do this in response to the right thing. I have one of things .

or people post about how dumb the tiktok band is and that gets them were .

Operating highlevel. And I know but I just .

i'm really suspicious of the current dialogue I am seeing like this is a good dialogue, but just the fact that saying the tiktok ban is dumb makes people like you and therefore it's going in that direction is highly suspicious.

Platform is good on any platform in .

tiktok is a company that's making way more money than you. And I feel like people are bending the need of tiktok and there's there's tons of issues there.

There's a legal dimension and then there's the the public dimension. The constitution exists, uh, for the people of the united states like U. S.

citizens. And I am pretty sure that almost you know the vast majority of U. S. Citizens believe that the bill of rights and the first amendment, uh, exist to protect american citizens that that's one of the benefits and perks of american citizenship. The idea that IT IT protects sheet en paying, I don't think most .

people realize like .

which there's reason .

to this isn't it's a black and White or representing IT is black .

and White people wanted to be black and White issue, it's not sure. But in terms of yeah.

she's not defending tiktok for tik toxic. Let me ask you a question during world war two where their limits on nai propaganda, the united states.

I don't know, know.

sure there .

was absolutely a.

well, I mean, one of the things is that our line of president goes back to the world war one when you weren't allow to protest against the draft because they thought that that would destabilize america. So the law at that point was, of course, the can, uh, jail your gene debs because he was organizing against the draft and we needed the .

draft so that .

the country will come together and fight the exercising .

is free right to to assembly and all that stuff is different from a doll. Hitler exercising his constitutional right to spread prop .

area in the U. S.

They are not different.

I don't think that was a scenario that necessarily got treated by law. But but one of the things is that, um oh sorry, what you've got .

a great job.

I'm just saying we probably have a president of a violating the first moment in times of war. I would imagine that the case, I don't think.

understand that it's a line of cases that started from moral bore, one that have moved now and they've moved very steadily and very instantly away from the government gets to do something oh, this is what the point I was gonna. The idea that the the below rate to protects only americans is not actually necessarily the case. Um it's not this is only the case in that all all of the laws are neumatic only applied to american citizens.

And some of the reason for that is because there's no way to actually have to apply to american citizens only and not other people. Because if you had to do the test of R U S. Citizen or not, IT would already compromise the views of the the rights of .

we do have the committee on foreign investment, united states, which has a legal right to prevent foreign nationals from investing in .

us proper right? And it's not seen in the speech context. In the speech context, americans do and this has been um recognize by a case that I can think of the name of hand um americans have the right to consume information and consume in including information produced by non americans.

So if you're gonna again, when you look at this, american users have their own rides that this in pines upon. So yes, it's in pinching upon tiktok rides. But IT also pinches on americans rights because it's affecting the information ecosystem they get to participate. And that is where the rubber, the road of shopping in with the counter.

The argument like we do to other other people that in the legal space are in your spirit, in your world that disagree with you.

I mean, there's a lot of people that keep trying to play, pull out text section to thirty and and .

ban the internet in terms of .

the people who I like and respect. There is deep alarm over the decision and the basis of the alarm, again, really has very little to do a tiktok itself and has entirely to do with the framework of what the court did, how to applied its strict scrutiny and what that would mean for anything else that's not tiktok that comes up next and were in the trouble .

who we who like the tiktok ban is associated with, like who raise the bill, who president .

trump started IT, right? And then the U. S. Congress voted in in last, in this current session and by inside the .

law oh and I believe also and you know the court is like, oh, and it's a steam judgment and wisdom. Congress decided to have passes law IT wasn't getting passed directly and I got passed, I believe, as part of a getting glue to a mass pass bill, which is really I I believe that is the case. And I got the escape velocity that way, like these laws, like the court is like the considered you a team of the bar person and in congress.

And that really ignored the evolution of the bill and the fact that common cause to pass IT was made by people who, yes, some are genuinely concerned about the national security impact with some really didn't like what kids today were saying on tiktok. I wanted to shut them up. And there was a big part of the motivation that pushed the bill.

And eventually, the question that we were talking about, restrictions during world war two of in one thousand thirty eight, congress passed the foreign agent registration act, which meant that everybody who's disseminating the propaganda behalf of foreign government had to register with the state department. So to what extent does does algorithm make tweak that favor the chinese position? Or any other sort of propaganda fall under the under the one hundred and thirty eight far A?

I don't think that was litigated. The second thing is I would need to do something called shari zing, which anybody who sites an earlier president should do. And aai zing is you look up to see, is that decision still good law? Or have the courts moved away from IT? So I don't know what the status of that sort of registration would be, but that's also again, something much more narrow.

And it's not like that rather still applies or not there. There's a strong precedent for, uh, uh, something that at least the king to what we're talking about now, which is foreign adversary disseminating propaganda with the united states IT, can be shut down by the congress. And uh that that that has happened. You know.

i'm saying i'm saying that may not be good law at all. IT doesn't count as a strong president. If have moved away.

that matters. IT was enforced.

And now we have we may have repudiated IT and repudiated in a way where it's well, if we, we, with the congress.

ney congress, nor the courts, nor the lawyers, know the supreme court are infallible in any degree. I think that that the fact that is common sense that we ouldn't allow foreign, our series of spread pop propaganda with in the united states, if depending on the level of conflict, it's common sense I I think it's common sense that IT does not mean that the the first amenity is no avoid .

or or common sense that this is a dangerous, uh.

road to go down and may .

be both are true and maybe maybe both maybe both are true.

And I actually believe the american people are smart enough to hear all points of view, even ever.

Points of you OK. But even even movies are labelled P, G, thirteen and was close to label content.

For example, the label en, because congress was trying to sensor the movies, which would have had a first amendment. But I want to reality. The industry decided to self regulate and that's why they do that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with with laws that that that are designed to to uh inform the public will think .

you really the public any attention to .

movie ratings and no, not really well .

think that's really .

if you actually so I could ask the question of what could the law have done that is .

going to suspend this because as as good as this conversation as we spent in an hour on IT. And I think all the points have been well stated. And I think at this point, we're just kind of reiterating too much free speech, too much free speech and I as a dictator i'm going to end IT right here .

but I great right to do IT .

that's two thirty protects me for any suits .

against me for doing that um but I think it's a great cover. I'm really glad we had this conversation and I think I would hope people listen and think about IT. It's an important question. I suspect that in fact, tiktok will be shut down generations but and .

then reopen on the twenty no.

no. I don't think trump is not number one and is a duty.

I it's .

gonna ut down. That's part of the reason i'm bullish, ed, just saying what .

an apple and google will be forced they are going to be forced to stop offering IT in their store and they will comply and that will be that um it'll be people who have occupied k tok on my phone and i'll still be able to see tiktok and I imagine a lot of us creators, you to use tiktok.

So the irony is how much of a cyber security vulnerability is to have unsupported on people's personal devices. But um I think an open question is, yeah this may not be the, let's say this litigation hit a wall O.

K, we .

are and where .

well.

no people and apple comply, that will be the next .

story they have to with .

russia and china for similar request.

I think look apply with the U. S. government.

I don't know. I think that I .

think it's a sad day.

If they do, i'd like to see if y've fight IT.

This could be interesting. Maybe we will be talking about this in a couple of weeks, well, next week. So we will be a best of, not a best of A A look back at the year, so to speak.

We do this every year, which is kind of fun. We look at the top stories of twenty twenty four. We put together panel, I think, to be a lot of fun of our own people.

It'll be microsurgery the Robert baLance here, which you're campus going to join us. He listens to twit on a regular basis. I always seem in our jet, I Richard and the paris mart know next week on to IT the year and and then the best of on ember twenty nine nine, excuse me.

And then we'll get back together and and start to show january fifth. And who knows, maybe by then we'll have some some supreme court stuff to report. You're watching this week in tech with our great guests, very smart people.

This is the problem you gets smart people on with with a lot of opinions, they may not agree. And then fireworks. And i'm enjoying IT. Mick algan is here from machine society that i'm sure you've written about this on your newsletter.

Oh, I think so. Yes.

more than one. And you may and you may again, four lines. Have you covered .

this in PC mag? Just the preferred news.

but not not in that.

no. Now all the time to I see that learns and that's why I just had a bad, good feeling about IT from what I I see about how we engage with them, but also a why I appreciate cats these perspective. And just SHE SHE looks out of her a completely different .

lanes when in the reason we love having cathodes, elon SHE is an advocate and you can tell contributor cg cancelled that com and as a avid reader of text or um I think I know how mike magnic feels about this as well.

I don't think there's a lot of day light .

between my opinion and I think he feels pretty much the same way. That's a great place to go. Text or to com if you want to read.

Cat is writing mike mathias, a car boat. So many great people writing there are about these issues. It's great to have all three of you on the show today. I would like to point out that Normally we would have an ad here, but we don't. This is one of the issues that facing many podcast.

I saw the other day that fifty percent of all ad sales in the united days go to the top ten shows need us to say we are we're not in the top ten. We might be the longest running we've been around for almost twenty years or twenty anniversary in April. But that doesn't mean your number one, and that doesn't mean advertisers affect advertisers like anybody else ago.

Yeah, I knew about that show, but yeah, yeah, we want to get color, daddy, let's get her on. She's hot right now. Which means we need to come to you to make up the difference, uh, even though we have cut back as much as we can, shutting down the studios, cancelling shows, laying off, uh, some of most beloved team members.

IT hasn't been enough to to baLance the books, if you will. And we're looking at a fairly bleak twenty twenty five. I appreciate all of you were members of club twitter.

And if you're not, I would love to invite you to join the club. Now we try to keep IT affordable, seven bucks a month. We try to give you good benefits, like add three versions of all of our shows, video for shows that are just audio to the public.

Of course, our great club to discord the events we do in the discard. We have a Stacy book club is coming up on thursday. Really good book.

Uh, the new book from the the guys who wrote the expense James as a cory um they have a new book, a new series coming out. Mercy of the gods is the first, and IT is really good. I just finished and i'm just I can't wait for the next, uh, volume of this.

So we'll be talking about that on thursday. J is not recommended. I desperately tried to get j in the joints for the book club micros crafting corners also coming up this week.

Chances, sit down to some crafts with my god city's building a tiny kitchen last time. I, we did an A M A last week with a family for a if if you remember the club, you can hear the they ask me anything on the tweet plus feed. So we try to give you extra content, extra stuff to make IT worthwhile.

But the real reason to join the club is to keep this kind of programing on the air. IT isn't very lucrative, but I think it's very important. And we really believe in what what we're doing.

So we'd like to invite you to help us out twitter TV flash club twit and thanks in advance. Ah let's see times almost up on holiday shopping and so are amazing deals at amazon. You so much on holiday have a like bikes, tense and outdoor gear. You have money left over for a premium yoga mat so you can try to touch .

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I could talk about costa and that's gone. Just just gna get another big argument.

I'm going to talk about the first, you know.

I know, how about this one? This was a surprise. Remember, there was a little tussle between that mollen waye CEO and a creator of wordpress CEO of automatic with a another company that puts word the puts people's wordpress sites online called wp engine.

A mac got upset with wp engine and and actually pulled their access to word press out. Our resources interfere with its plugging. The judge has now ruled that he must stop. On tuesday, california district judge ordered automatic to stop blocking W P engines access to word press dot org. This is kind of a shock.

I A moon wag, had waged businesses from the verge wage to public campaign against wp in september, accusing them of misusing the wordpress trademark, knocked rating back to the wordpress community and then blocking wp engine from their servers, plus taking control in effect of their pluggin wp engines plug in. Judge era silly Martina's oaken found merit in wp agency claims at automatics actions harmed business relationships, saying mulling wegg's conduct is design n to induce or induce breach or disruption. Uh, kind of a shock, I guess. I guess I should ask you, Cathy, what you think of this decision is IT married?

Um it's been hard to sort of completely follows. So I put an astors when I think the answers is probably yes, I did seem like IT was a measured decision and the judge seem to understand what was getting complained about. And it's really a decision that like in theory, the mulan weg view could still prevail. But it's really, I think, sort of an injunction to sort of one of the points I was making earlier is that the law like status quo until we really until we are all sure that it's OK a little .

speed bump to keep yeah and and .

sometimes we don't like that because sometimes it's like go head and break things because money will fix IT. So we'll sort IT out later, but especially for things where money can't fix or you know too much harmful crew um then the government wants to like you know this step back, present of things how they are and like .

that's what happened because this is just maintaining the statue. There still will be a trial. There will be discovery, its word presses contention that they're protecting in the open source ecosystem in general, that this is often the case that a third commercial third parties take advances of open source without contributing back to the original open source. That was what that felt was happening.

IT may also be so, one of the things in the standard for planner and junction staus quo. And like, you know, what are the balancing the arms or we've gonna harm, more of we changed stuff now, or more of lay over change and then turn out that was wrong. And then also likelihood of prevAiling on the merits and this decision does seem to telegraph that the judge found a but not meal and websites to be um have a persuasive argument what IT isn't fully dispositive this is not the end of the case if they want to keep the gating IT, the judge might get to a different point eventually but we've left things out they are for now uh but IT does seem to if he was really on board with the argument he would probably think, yes, there's a harm and we need to stop that harm right now. And IT doesn't sounds like he was particularly convinced that there was that sort of .

harming crawling will watch with the interest. I think this will develop and IT does really impact open source, the open .

source community. I was just a mess like it's hard to it's it's unfortunate. This is not who mommy and daddy are fighting, and this is not good.

Yeah.

something is episode.

No, no, nobody y's a mommy here and nobody y's a daddy here.

I was just about finding, I .

really like, know, sometimes you can look at the dispute and you have more of a sense of who's the bad guy is in the other thing and um you know even if you are not sweet by millon burgs millon wag uh actions here, he's been a good guy in the space for a long time so so that would be unfortunate if this is not consistent with that.

That's exactly my feeling. I have we've interviewed i've been interviewed many times. You on our shows, I have the highest regard for him in a support for open source. So I kind of lean in his favor without really knowing what the case is. I think that that the trials, probably the best solution to all of this.

Let me talk about an interesting piece in the r atlantic h this week by charlie wards, or who I often quote on these shows because he's a very provocative and interesting thinker about technology. He, like me, admits that for years he's thought of crypto is really more of a problem than a solution to anything with fts and crypto o being used. Bitcoin, particularly for rand's somewhere payments.

The end, of course, the world burning consequences of generating this group to currency. He says, i've real pick White papers for web three startups and decentralized finance ance protocols. But i've never found a killer APP.

He says, maybe now, after the presidential election, we have found the killer APP. And this is the paragraph i'd love to get your comments on, mike and Emily and Cathy. This is the quote from a charly washed in the atlantic.

Crypto is a technology whose transformative powers is not a particular service, but a culture. A culture, one is one that is, by nature, distrustful of institutions and sympathetic to people who wanted this metal them or toll them. The election results were, at least in part, of repudiation of institutional authorities and cyp to help deliver them.

We know this, that not just elon must, but the generally the crypto to industry put hundreds of millions of dollars into the election to support crypt to friendly politicians, and they won big time. The new jsc chairman is pro crypto, replacing gary against lor, who wanted to regulate cyp to as securities. And the crypto in a students like that, they kind of i've even seen them goes so far as to say, you know, there shouldn't any capital gains tax for money.

We make an speculating on cyphered, and that's the case in some countries. I don't IT will be the case here. Trump has said he wants the united states to be the big crypto to power. He wants us to have a giant crypto um fort knocks always uses like the .

most dramatic image possible.

Well, actually I chose the four knox.

Now he used to two. yeah.

Try to pledge deregulation to help, quote, ensure that the united states will be the crypto capital of the planet and the bitcoin superpower .

of the world.

Take that, elva, by the way, people who criticize president vocalise decision put the l salvor. currency. And you would know a little bit about this, but i'd like to know what you think on a ecri pto basis. His investment in in bitcoin has proven a four hundred million dollar windfall for ourself the door. What what do you you think was that the right thing to do?

Well if he cashes out, I mean if clipped those supposed be a currency um for buying things, he tried to make that happen IT doesn't really happen and how so no, they still doll chief U S dollar. And but but but it's also investment. So like if you you can invest in the winner of the stock market or this or that or you you could buy bitcoin, right? So it's mainly a way to make money.

You you buy as long as it's going up, you make money. If he doesn't go up, you would lose money. Problem I have with with cyp to currencies is not tied. The values is not tied anything, at least of the stock. It's sort of tied to the results of the company or a real estate sort of tied to the market.

In the last couple of decades, we've accepted the idea that the making tons of money for its own sake is is a, is an acceptable thing to do. I A little fashion, and I tend to think that the reason you invest in a company is because that company makes things that people or want and and is part of how you contribute to society, is part of how you, uh, make things Better.

Like I am a capitalist and I think that despite so many abuses, capitalism and generally has lifted people out of poverty. Because you basically you build the company, you can have a small business. All these things are positive.

And here IT comes along a thing that's an investment just like that in terms of you buy, what is the equivalent of stock and you sell what is the equivalent of stock. But no clothing has been made. No food has been produced or distributed.

No benefit. Humanity has happened at all. Just the dudes making money and attended sort of think that we've lost the plot.

Here's the problem. Those dudes who did make a lot of money then invested IT in buying the best government money. goodbye. And the problem with arc politics in this country is, is so based on money that they now have immense power .

and IT hurt. With that being said, to rain on that parade. But I think they are confusing speculation with investment. And I think to makes point, investment is something that you know there's some value in doing IT for, for the sake of what IT is that your your you're hope to get a uh, return on your investment, but something is going to get built with that investment. And so there's other reasons to do IT.

This is just sort of rent screen and it's just run seeking based on how can I turn my one dollar into two. And there's reasons why we have regulation. We may not have enough regulation, but we are what they keep agitating for is no regulation. So we relearn why we have any regulation.

The first point, arn.

because so best in a lot of two.

Yeah right? Elan says, delete the consumer finance protection board, the C, F, P, B, because it's just get in the way. Yeah, just get away.

Charlie talked to mollie White, who's been on a show we love mollie White. SHE, of course, created the website. Web three is going just great and covers the crypto currency industry.

He said bitcoin, into some degree, the other cypher assets have this anti government and anti censorship ethos, he said, but it's but the original crypto ideology was built around the notion that large financial institutions in the government shouldn't be part of this new paradise defied decentralized finance, SHE says. But many crypto advocates have established a great deal of power through the wealth we've managed accumulate using these assets. And over the time, there's been a shift from we don't want these institutions to have the power to we want the power. And I have to kind of agree with her at this point. Emily, are you all .

in a big no? I didn't experiment where I invested a thousand dollars in bitcoin in two thousand twenty one. Not bid coins specifically, but other coins. I wanted to track the market and see how IT went. And I picked coins that were more environmental friendly .

and that anything something exactly.

exactly I was ingredient enough and also enable smart contracts, which I thought was the interesting part about bitcoin or just script because it's it's a technology. And what I could do is we could enable kind of like a digital handshake. And when you release funds.

So maybe when you place pizon ordered to dominus, when the pizza put in your hands, then the funds are automatically released digitally. So that's like a smart contract. And I was like.

That could change the way that we work, that could add something to the country. So I invested in coin's that enabled that. And I don't think the the promise of that has really come to fruition.

And it's certainly not enter the dialogue, but just because of the research I did for that, I got interested in maybe maybe there is A A specific technology component here that could be interesting in terms of the rich getting richer, which is what down time is currently after. I think he's that narrative is going. It's gona leave lusty. I just same old crap, you know.

I mean, the problem is right now, there's a lot of people with a lot of money and everyone's like face Price stuff against the glass and wants that too.

But there's a reason lost vegas always shows ads for the winners, never shows ads for the losers, which far outnumber the winner.

But this is all air. There is no there there .

what people argue, like the beginning of the stocks market though.

like maybe know there, but there would be some equity like in very own the tiny bit of .

the company and you shares in the british east india company money that was a good investment because they were sending ships out. And you know final three under what's under .

appreciate or or under disgust is so there's this ethos and philosophy by by advocates of the coin and other crito currencies. But there's not enough discussion because I write a lot about cyber security and the ransom war world wouldn't be what IT is today without the time I close. It's great for money launder ing .

member in the early days of ransome, where they said, go down to seven eleven and buy some money cards and mail them to me yeah as soon as ripped.

as soon as big coin use. That is way Better for crime and criminals IT or all the all the uh all the sort of uh ethical mumbo jumbo that the crypto uh enthusiasm spout. And so I think I think on baLance has been a has had a quite a Alicia influence. I think all the think about the health care organizations in schools and other other um uh institutions that are important to society that have been grounded to a halt because of ransom where it's abled by bitcoin, that surely there has to be factor in. Yes, nice to have no regulation in the oversight, but that there's a dark side to that clearly.

So the funny thing is for me, like as a civil varian, I kind of like that there is ways of having currency that may have some button privacy protections. But I take your point like on IT is IT is very easy and it's being exploited for that ease. But again, like all these people, there's it's just air.

And there the people who are already in crack to make more money when more people come into crypto o because all the valuation is what the demand is, but there's still no inherent valuation to anything that's own. So it's kind of a the scheme because they need to get more, more people to come in. But I more, if more people had are .

making money on crypt out now, I think people would like IT more. I think people just like what benefits them right now, corporations and people who, you know, commit crimes are making my encrypt. Or so they like IT and we are not making money and crept. So we don't like IT.

No one's losing money right now at .

an all time high. But the tiens.

you've made some money right .

after me and you tried to get environment .

friendly one you bought the wrong coins of. I have seven point eight five bitcoins, which I only have because I lost the password to the wallet, because I would have sold IT when they were worth a thousand six. Now there were one hundred, five thousand books, and that at seven point and five bitcoins, almost a million books, I think you will probably get to a lot more. Thank god I couldn't .

sell IT.

Yes.

I mean, any reason I made money? Emily has me pegged half like, yeah, i'm kind of annoyed. I don't have any bit I think I am principled enough to say that my bigger concern is that this is air and there's a bubble and that bubble is going to pop and is gonna pop disastrously and for the people who least can afford IT. And I think based on all the dynamics and the physics of what is going into this, where to speculation on how much demand they can do at a certain point, they will run out of demand and they will pop and that will be bad. And I think I think the concern is really rooted not .

purely in the second corporations .

are making money on cypher, not it's annoying that the incoming president is advocating for people who are already incredibly wealthy and have incredible tax advantages to make more money. And that is also a part of .

no but what's knowing to me though, it's not that any anybody else making money, I don't care for the people make money. I want everybody makes as much money as they can. And I think that's great.

What's annoying to me is that, that nobody cares that this investment is is both facilitating crime and and providing no material benefit to society. And that would be so much Better if people did. They are investing into companies that we're doing something positive, building something, creating something.

Tried he tried to buy the way but you know .

but that's right by ah something that's going to contribute back to society doesn't doesn't do that. It's pure .

speculation.

What s is?

They want a gun for the regulatory state. So to the regulatory state may be good, bad or otherwise, but a kind of exists, sort of not have bubbles. And if they do pop, they don't pop so disastrous, sly. And so at least like what would be a more construct investment well and invest in a company in a Normal way. And they're not happy with the S C C because the S C C is kind of like looking at their stuff and saying, like I think you fall under what we're regulating because you kind of need the regulation here so they want to do away with the S.

C, C, so they can away with IT.

Then we've lost a lot of the protection that protects all of us and helps guy to make sure that we can have sounder investments and that the public can invest more soundness.

Ly, so I bet you that the vast majority of our listeners right now have been thinking about getting into bitcoin, right? They see it's going up. Seems like it's going to go up forever. My wife said I should buy some bitcoin.

They've made IT easy because most of the um you know the stocker broken just sell bitcoin ets so it's easy now to buy a fractional bitcoin and you know just cross your fingers said that continues to go up charly writes crypto s future is uncertain but its legacy, at least in the short term, seems clear than I did before november fifth. IT turns out crypto currencies do have a very concrete use case. They are a technology that has latched onto and then helped build a culture that celebrates greed and speculation as virtues just as IT embraces voluntier ity. The only predictable thing about crypto o seems to be its penchant for attracting and enriching a patchwork of individuals with qualities including, but not limited to, an appetite for risk and overwhelming optimism about the benefits of technology or a healthy distrust of institutions. In these ways, crypt to was a perfect fit for the turbulence and distrust of the twenty twenties.

And well said, and I think we're gna miss those institutions when they are gone.

Yes, I think you're right.

I would much rather have a strong central financial institution and be what a country and the people that realized on the crypto like. That's a very poor outcome.

We know in that I think this is something where I we agree. What .

interesting what interesting is .

I like your opinion. I I have absolutely problem with what you said. I trying to figure out how I square on IT and that I don't think I I have no ill will towards you.

have no any prove your championship, the first AMD. And we need more people like you.

And because like, I do like regulation in certain ways, I kind of want a role for government. So then the issue is I fight IT hard for like the civil berties and like the first. And especially because if you're going to endure the government with a lot of power, that's a lot of power that can be abused.

And so one of the fundamental checks on IT is to make sure we've got this free shipping and free path to be able to complaining about IT if IT screws up, especially because we're democracy. So we should be able to discuss how we wanted to steer IT. So that's why I hold on so tight for this because it's the counterbaLance for when we need the government to actually be more strong and centralize to do these helping things where the we're just not going to be able to sort IT out unless we come together to form this more .

perfect union and promote the or welfare.

Just a hug, we do everyone yes.

I very people two hundred years idea you watching this weekend .

got a place hoan you're watch this weekend tech Emily for li who has a thought and we will get to that just a moment from PC magazine. Uh, Cathy geller, who was our attorney at law contributor atteck or and of course mike algan of gr oma, that net and his newsletter machine society that day. It's great to have smart people talking about this stuff. And if smart people all agreed, the world would be a lot easier, but I wouldn't be necessarily a lot Better. Thank you for being here, and thank you all for watching.

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This is an a tiny secrets with you here. Because of our job, we need to be connected. Tony over connects more than us.

It's important .

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And it's easy to forget when you have a big parts of the country still don't have high speed internet.

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election is an interesting article in the new york times, among other things, they talked about how the election was really a boom for silicon valley. Mark and jesson, the guy who wrote netscape navigator when he was a student at the university of illinoi, the n. Csa, is now a venture capitalist in podcast, I might note.

And a big trump fan said he has spent about half of the time since election day working on the presidential transition. He framed a Donald trump s win as a cultural moment for a techno optimist ideology. You may remember about six months ago and recent publishing his techno optimist manifesto, we talked about IT. He said, it's mourning in america. So i'm very happy people are finally poking their heads out of the frozen throne of culture and realizing is actually okay to build things higher on merit, celebrate the success and fundamentally be proud of the country and be patriotic.

I mean.

that sounds good, but but everything is located for following through that attends to not be that.

Well, let's see. I mean, maybe it's really big. Look, I admit I manti trump. I'd never trumper ince the day he rode the gold and escalator or, but maybe i've been wrong all this time. Maybe this is gonna a good time in amErica where we're going to build and get stronger. And maybe we should celebrate silicon valley and the innovation culture.

but let's not forget what we already know. So the first thing we know is dont trumpet, the person doesn't know anything about technology calls at the cyber every time somebody ask them any question about anything, bitcoin AI, whatever he always says, well, my son barren is really good with his laptop um and so and so he personally doesn't and I I have a tendency to think that he's brought in all these um so abp because they have money, they have influenced yeah they help them get elected. I don't think any of the things, I don't think any of the people he's brought on for this transition like .

Anderson or for future David matter for trying out.

that doesn't mean he's gone to let them be in charge. I think what that means is that he's he's a he's a Megan echo narcy st. And he's going to send a mountain empson sah. I think I will allow children to get polio. And so like I don't think any of this, he's just going he's still hasn't decided whether he's going to go with any of this stuff, and there's no reason to believe that he's gonna with any of these people. I certainly does not understand anything about A I crypto or any that stuff.

Peter til Peter till equated liberalism with the ancient regime in france, which of course was overthrown, and promptly headed to the gear team to get their heads chopped off. Ironically, the reason they got their heads chopped up as because they were collecting all of the resources, all of the money and letting a meat cake. Ah and ah IT seems like maybe mark has his history or Peter Peter, I should say has his history a little bit upside down.

Mean, if this wasn't our country and our future and our democracy, this might be kind of want to sit back and watch. But the thing is I I I don't disagree with the character zone of trump and how he will probably come himself. But you know his a little court of people competing for each other.

It's not like there's any of them that i'm rooting for. I don't think they have any Better insight into that interface between technology can do and how IT interfaces with humanity. They don't seem to actually like humanity very much yeah and it's really concerning like what would they actually advocate? To a certain extent trump might actually temper them because a lot of the stuff is really nehalem and programmes humanity off of the earth to just have the sort of technical utopia um i'm deeply worried about what they would want to prescribe if I am only somewhat happy that they make crash to each other and take each other out before they actually get to do any real that .

interesting time. And because we are at a mom, I think perhaps moment where A I is going to suddenly change a lot of what's going on in the world. And IT coincides with this rise of a techno elite. Ite, I don't know that's .

good or not.

I am not sure what is going to be uncertain.

It's not good because a lot of this like techy, I can do some really cool stuff, but we're not really applying what we are in some degree applying to the cool things, but we're also applying IT to a hope bof. Things other like this is a really bad. It's like they don't like people. They don't see the value in humanity. They think like the idea is value in human creation.

And either, to be honest with you, I think he's always looked down on on .

people who think you would be a really odd reaction to tour some of like the post neighbourhood america, like people who are really, really struggling and those those terrible places that all these people never go to think that would be really odd to go through those places and come out of them and say A I as the answer, right, or crypto the answer, that would be a very strange reaction. So I think that what is .

a good point?

The other thing is that there are mutually exclusive things so that there's A A lot of talk about trump ushering in an era of technical utopian thinking. But at the same time he wants to put, you know these massive tarifa other countries in ten percent terf on china. China will retaliate .

sixty percent ta sixty percent fan.

It's very good .

on the off funning. I haven't seen the latest percent. But but the the point is that they'll be retaliation that will seriously damage the technology sector.

likely just so weird because elan mosque is obviously made a good portion of his money out of evs. But trump wants to eliminate the EV any elan supporters eliminate the eva tax credit.

Not clear that any of these people really understand how anything works. They keep arriving at, oh, we have a problem, but they're not understanding the problem. They're not understanding any of the expertise developed from people who have been studying the problem. And therefore, they can't fix IT, but they're all kind of busting in like cool man, like i'm here and I will provide the thing that everybody has .

been missing and is definitely cooler. Man.

yeah, I think the lack of humility is smart people tended be kind of humble about what they know. So when you're not seeing the humility that kind of like a giveaway that you really they really don't know what they're talking about, but they don't understand the problems. Therefore, they can fix IT, which is why, oh, just that. A I seems elling because if you don't know anything about anything making stuff up, why not? So that sounds good.

I mean, I had some hope after the election is a twinge of I do think there's a lot of engagement, like deep engagement with issues in the U. S. And in the issues with politics.

And so there is an underlying sense, like everyone just wants the right to happen. And I I think that people really people seem to really, really, really want this country to succeed on both sides. So I mean, even though all of this is okay, I can continue .

with guy wish you did.

That was the most hold by talent weeks.

There is some hope though. I mean, it's easy to get. We just have to figure out like what is the Better. And I do think there apparently everyone deep, deep in their chest want things to be Better. And it's I think .

there .

is course .

we come on nobody. I do not think anybody who voted voted with the intention of hurting the country. Now everybody's doing what they think is the best for the country.

But I wish more people knew how more stuff work. Yes, because there's reasons like some things that we had leading up to. Everything was okay. We could have done Better, but some things existed for a reason and to just sort of like I ve been before and I have detector post about IT, it's chester son's rule offences.

Where are the idea if you go to a field and nothing is there and you're like, why is this fence here? It's such a waste. And you take out the fence because you haven't seen the tiger hiding in the grass and out the tiger who is free to run around everywhere.

And these people are pulling up enses that have been built for a reason, but because they don't know the reason they're pulling IT out. But okay, that's more than musk, the trump s and stuff. But a lot of people were like, well, that sounds good to me because they didn't know why the they did know what fences were there. They didn't know why the ends were there. We had establish some systems and the systems were kind of working or even the extent they weren't working, you can't fix them necessarily .

by just trucking them out things. And there's a tiger IT makes a lot of sense to give the tiger a million dollars for his inauguration ball so that he'll like you and not eu. And that's in fact, what silicon valley seems to be doing. Million dollar donations for the inaugural from meta, from amazon, from sam altman, sunder patch I sir gay brin, uh tim cook and on and on and on but there's the problem .

of what does that mean that you have to pay the tiger? And what does that mean when the tiger has planned to hurt other people who are not giving him a million dollars?

Well, it's just the self interest era. That's how I see I call of the trumps of just this things used to have to behind closed doors and now it's call to pay people to get what you want and I just .

such the american way yes.

Now it's on full display now that to me i've just seen IT so much more um in recent months and years. It's all about who's paying who who's self interested White and who's just open about IT and that's that's how the world works. I think that's .

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I didn't even get to all of our AI stories. That's how how fun this show was your watching this week in tech. Emily for li, it's great to have you hear PC magazine. You cover a whole lot of stuff on PC magazine. What are you working on right now?

Well, I write about evs. I write about AI.

What should I buy for my next TV? What do you think I ve .

advised a lot of people on this and that I really love doing that is so fun to put people in E. V. So if you wanted serious.

I tell you, I have wed a tesla, a mini Cooper. These are all E V S, A musing mock E E V. Ah, I have won a jervy bold E V. I currently am on A B M W I five, E V O K.

so. I thought we are making money here.

I get a elusive should I get the losses pure? Have you driven that yet?

I I don't think that's worth and to be honest, pensive car has for five hundred .

and chevy equates. I'm seen that looks .

like a pretty nice I couple. Yes, yeah, yeah. okay.

What would you like? IT, good. You have tried everything.

I don't know if you've done all the greatest test.

You know, I love them all, to be honest with you. Each of them have their own. But once you this is, by the way, this seems to be held out by statistics. Once you've to board A V and driven E, V, you very rarely back to a guess.

great. I know. I love.

Thank you. That just tell my wife that would you?

I think .

there needs a tiger.

This sexy as some cool as E.

V. IT is pretty cool. Rain jane, great. But you know, it's still who cares, right? Also with this mike elgin, who is in wa. haka. But you not could be there long where you go on next.

We're going to L, W in january first in interm, but i'm drinking some nice a scale i'm actually drinking um yes, to know that brand moscow, I have a bottle of that.

Yes, you do. So how good you haven't still have .

that you moscow I know it's yeah I don't .

really drink, mike. So I know you don't. I have to work my .

way up to moscow. Let's put IT anyway, it's lovely. We don't sell this. By the way, this isn't.

Do you give why i'm keeping IT save IT? It's like my mini babies. It's gonna my retirement.

But whether whether I come on to IT, you always let me, uh, talk about gas, no, mad. And also my sons start up.

Hello.

Better box. Let's just the holidays. yeah. Like to say that both of these things are great gifts if you want to be a hero to your significant other astronauts.

D, and if you have anybody who is eight years old and up and once a totally secure A I device, I would recommend chat box. And I talked to Kevin before the show, and he said that if anybody plays an order before the eighteen, he can fill up by Christmas. So.

oh my god, so you by now, and have IT by Christmas, what a gift this would be for a smart, i'd say, fifth, greater to its greater like that even in adult.

so many people, including on the show, complained about surveilLance. An example lifed perfectly by amazon and its echo device is harvest information. They have an echo device for kids is very inexpensive because they want to monodist that kid to the end of time.

Or is the chat about to the only is so private as the only a smart speaker allowed in schools, and and its super private for any adult who wants to have access to A I, who wants to building their own system reference war from alpha ChatGPT eeta. But it's tolley private when all users are completely anonymous on the system and cannot be track. So for a gift, I think this is perfect.

If I agree, I agree, it's very cool. Hello, chatter box dot com for your chatter box and a little less cow to go along with IT. Cathy gell's A I don't think i'm speaking out of school because you've written about IT uh, on a text or you recently had a little health .

scare yeah um for people who seen me over the year, in the beginning of march, I got diagnosed with campers and so i've been dealing with that. And H I wrote about IT because I realized if such as I wanted to get something out of like what a student ways there needs to be.

going be some way to shirt I. And so I wanted .

to write about IT partly because IT, well, I wanted value. And so I wrote in about in a couple uh context. One is that around the time that I was diagnosed um prince's kate had also announced that sheet had her cancer.

And now that i'm enamored with the british realty or any or whatever follow that um IT was really helpful because that that moment when i'm sort of like just drowning in the reality of that but I need to tell people and this is a really hard conversation I have because i'm not have to get my own head around IT and i'm going to traumatize the people who care about me by telling them IT was just really nice to be able to start the argument with the argument and i'm a lawyer, everything is an argument IT was really a good to start the conversation with. I have a princess cake problem and that opened the door and then I can follow IT up with with details. And then I also wanted write about IT because my cancer was a varian cancer. So it's a gna ological cancer. And I thought, what I sorry, my grandma had that oh yeah, I I think I want .

the reasons you died.

Yeah yeah it's, I mean, I thought over in cancer was a death sentence. Obviously i'm still here um is violent um IT doesn't IT still doesn't have good um um rates but I my understanding of basically where I was is about a third of the people who get diagnosed would not survive IT. Then they get raised and then of the other two thirds that are left for half your OK and the end that you move on with your life. And for the other half, I can come back and then you have to keep fighting IT, but it's a lot more fights than I used to be and I did really well, kind of her said, are not on all the wood um I refine I didn't have two miserable time with the the therapy and at the moment i'm no evidence of disease so I and boy and all a lot of gonna logical issues have really been brought to before. And i've wanted to write about IT in the context of personal liberty and the republic of freedom that I had, which gave me access to professionals, which is how I happen to .

have found you were going in for I V F.

I was going to try to do I V F. And we were doing a procedure, and the procedure did not work. And this turned out to be why, but that's how they found the masses.

So, but how good that I was able to, like, you know, have access to that reproductive technology and the caregivers, and then also that the caregivers can understand these parts and the science behind these parts, and also come up with cures and remedies and things like that. And we are busy criminalizing the science. So the liberty is getting taken away, and the science is getting taken, and the science will get IT taken away, not just for women.

But IT is such an anti science attitude with the idea that we could understand our parts and provide period of science to understand how they can work Better. That's onna roll towards everybody in any sort of condition that any human body can have and you know, it's the stuff that I write about their own actor, a personal liberty and, uh, innovation. And I thought my experience brought those situations to the four and trying to get something out of that like it's much as you to be public about IT than to ride to keep my secret I mean, after all, like the hair I think kindly gives IT away anyway. Um can there be some value out of IT? Can we reframe some of these issues and so that when people make policy decisions that may seem convenient to them, for whatever reason they can understand that there's greater impacts on that can happen down the road?

Good for you. Women's health is just so hopefully under explore and under appreciated and disconnected from science of technology and for some reason considered in a different fear than any other kind of medicine. And I I think it's it's just a tragedy and it's amazing that you wrote about that like how brave and smart. So thank you.

Yeah and there was a wonderful article and with you do need a lot more science and days look dark ahead for science about women's health and all kinds of things but it's also a has to be said because this is tech podcast, that, uh, we talk a lot about all the risks and dangers of A I but one of the rate things about A I will be its powers of diagnostics s and so anybody with any sort of um disease or anything that could be Better diagnose diagnose with the ee hang on because over the next few years is going to be a revolution in A I based diagnostics s and this is a good thing that we should be celebrating or pretty seeing .

IT this is one of the stories I had A I is detecting more breast cancer cases a study women in a study women who chose and by the way, you had to pay extra for IT AI powered memory ms were twenty one percent more likely they have cancer detected than those who didn't. This is from a finding presented at the annual meeting of the radiological society of north america.

Um so we've heard before that AI being used in radiology, I have friends were radiologist, not to replace the radiologist but to help the radiologist. And I think that's already in widespread use and very powerful. And they also used, by the way, AI for dictation because he turns out it's very .

good at no IT isn't. No no IT is not. So been multiple study are rote about that some machines society where the where pretty much every single uh package of this table that they analyzed had some fluctuation or another includes in some cases and lot this a deleting brand is based on chat.

B T. But but they're even making up medicine. They are saying no, helped by that's .

why the human needs to stay in the in the loop.

I saw the same thing about diagonal. I wrote that there was A A good quality study that you gave A I diagnostic tools to a bunch of, you know, people who work in the field. And if I did not, IT didn't help.

So I think there's like in the best cases ario. Yes, that works well. But without like training, proper technology, proper usage IT .

doesn't help with ago. But where where where the excitement is, is in the experimental phase where in cases ark's disease that there they're showing promise and and the potential to to detect parkin's these ten years before the first this nation, you know.

which is amazing. But I would love to have more faith in the health care system. I mean, we we didn't even get to mr. li. I but I mean, yeah, I mean.

having I think having IT is a tool to augment the people if is a tool that people can use and IT is carefully tailor to the problem, is trying to solve. I think that's where the really interesting things was. Stuff like A I is um the problem is I think when he tries to replace the human beings and. Presume at this point in its development that they can do Better. I think that we've run into problems because we just sort of um abandon our own.

We've learned that have we with self driving vehicles, don't let the car do all the work you gets some assistance from the AI. But onest ly, you still need to k to keep your when I had the equal X I.

we were talking about, and I had a mark e two in the same week, and both of them had the hands for you self driving. So a little too. yeah. And I felt like I was becoming a worst .

driver like I was have for, don't you know, that was already with GPS maps, like you don't .

want to find a way anywhere. So then I worry, with this case, if we give A I to no radiologists, are they just going to become be kind of default to IT and they actually lose a little bit of critical thinking. So all in the implementation.

Here's another story, huge randomized trial of AI boosts discovery, at least for good scientist, that interest from nature. This is the use of AI in research and IT showed. And maybe, mike, you should speak to this, this is kind of what machine society is all about. But, uh, they followed the deployment of the machine learning tool at an unnamed corporate laboratory with one thousand researchers, teams that were assigned and was by random to use the tool, discovered forty four percent more new materials and file thirty nine percent more patent applications than the ones that didn't use the AI. And this totally .

checks out with our own experience with A I doesn't that I mean, IT can certainly accelerate in the case of the thirty nine percent increase in patent applications IT can sell IT accelerates the ground work no matter what kind of grant work you're you doing. In most cases, for example, software development of writing um and IT also has IT also has a more open mind than human being generally has.

If you can think of five reasons for X, Y, Z, and you put those into into a good A I and say, are there any other reasons it'll come up with other good reasons we can go huh and then you can move on and and it's very quickly you can sort of expand the scope of your thinking and and and and expand the number of things you're considering so that totally checks out. And also we can expect uh the you know AI to keep evolving and uh getting Better and Better. So ah you believe .

we'll get to A G I any time in our lifetime? I don't think so.

I think that I think I think it's A A bit of a yeah delusion that the .

type of yeah .

I I think I think what will discover is is that the human mind as a is is vastly more capable and and amazing than we ever thought.

but not to diminish the value of A I in conjunction with the human mind.

No, but we're not appreciating the we're approaching the policy problem of we appreciating A I and I think the policy problems were not appreciating the human beings. So I mean, one of the things with A G I is the problem. One, the problem we have right now as we keep acting as though we've achieved IT and taking out the people and just replacing IT with the technology as if that were there yet.

not there yet and .

you're not going to get that results. But it's really I think we also suffer in general from the lack of appreciation of the people and how call people's brains actually are and all the interesting things they can do.

And one of the things I think that's cool about the human brains is that I think we actually, deep down, uh, really do care where stuff comes from. For example, uh, you know, there there been articles and say that, you know, A I started writing poetry, but the knowledge that a human being didn't feel these things makes a huge difference in for people. These poetry, they're not. They just want, don't want good words. They, they want to share the experience of another person.

I noticed this in chess, and when you place chest quite seriously in my youth, and machines get Better and Better, pretty soon, you couldn't beat the machine. Pretty soon machines, we're Better than humans. And now machines can solve positions much, much Better than humans.

In fact, probably would easily be the world champion. But that doesn't mean we want to watch a play chess. We want to watch humans play. And bento, who welcome back, by the way, beno and sales are producer, came, came back from from the Philippines in japan. I thought we'd never get him back.

Good to see you, benito, but he's always said and I believe this more more bindo, that really we write poetry, we play chess, we make music because we enjoy the process that that is part of what IT is to be human and seeding these creative test to a machine doesn't solve or satisfy any need um and so you know, we'll always be humans who want to write poetry or play chess or make music. And we will always, as humans, I suspect, prefer the output of those. Now there are places music is used, as in elevators and on podcast, where A I must generated music is probably okay.

It's music, but that's not the music we love, the artist we go to see. Last week, Christine owne was on. We had to let her go a little early because he was going to the very last year as concert by teller swift. I cannot imagine any future where anybody would say, I can't wait to see the last performance of machines, swift performing its latest.

Why would you ever have the last one? The whole point to decide. You can just keep going and going .

and going to to create false scarcity. Gm has called IT quits on their robot taxi. Cruise is dead.

Mary ba, who is the CEO of G. M. 呃， this is her fifty billion dollar robot taxi dream.

Lots of people put money into these cruse taxi. Its business basically disappeared after a dragged to pedestrian. Then G M. Lied about IT. I worry, as a cyclist.

like I don't like self driving taxes because I need to make eye contact.

And there's nothing no yes. Yeah, you do person to see if you've seen you.

And sharing the road is a communicative experience and there's nothing to communicate with where it's going to affect behavior.

Sorry, no, this was big. I listen to the the earnings call for this and mary bar, just captain, they go is not our core business. We're going na focus on passenger.

What we just talked about the the equates level two self driving system, so which I like a lot to you. And that's a noble mission too. It's I guess they're just getting out of the commercial like A A B to b kind of thing. So it's just gonna like passenger tech, weak up experience and kind of Operate point.

One of the things elon mosques pressing for is an elimination of regulation around self trimming vehicles.

Yeah, he said.

you know, we can really get good at this unless you'd let us do whatever we want.

I saw a video today that a mcclean was speeding and got in a car crashed that was so bad that the car split into. And I was like, I don't know. I mean, they say that self driving can solve, you know, all these car crashes and things, but gotto be some weight that the type of person who would be speeding down the highway at one hundred and fifty miles per hour in a two hundred thousand dollar car can abuse that god to be some way that person in an a cell driving car could also abuse that. I got just, I don't feel like we can get rid of IT.

I don't know what I don't know my bmw will not let me drive fast.

but then just do something else like something .

else like what is going .

to in the back seat, all the Carriers and you go.

by the way, this does not mean google are banning way. Mo, of course I think bar applied that look, we are. Do I have the market cap of of a google or an ala bet um to .

talk about not the core business. It's weird that the car company is the one, but it's not doing the car of .

the ico. Soft Price, soft bank all put money into the gm effort. Bara says that they're going to pay the mall back, but it's over for a cruise.

Creese got I mean, they definitely messed up with the lying and the crash that they had, but it's not like way more hasn't had issues like tellers. A lot of them been involved in killing people and there's still teasing that out in court. So I feel like G, M. Got a little bit of harsh a shut down here.

But is IT a big deal, Emily, that you can now buy a car on amazon? Yes.

actually I have personal experience with this. Like what I started at amazon, I used to work there. This was considered the holly grail of products they were trying to get.

So this was in like two and fifteen. And IT was, sir, they were working on IT back then, and I was exposed to that effort and in meetings about IT. And if they just know, car company would do IT. So when I saw that hand, ay is doing this. I was like, wow, I did IT like, so I just, I had a personal experience.

Ideas in amErica aren't credibly powerful. I was not able in some states, you cannot buy a tesla direct from tesla because the the laws of the state say you have to have a dealer's ship in the state. I think texas is one of those states. I had a great experience buying a tesla, california, directly from tesla and have to go through a dealer. And from a lot of people, the idea of not going through the negotiations with the sales person at a dealership is very appealing.

This was one of the things I think musk was very vocal, a when tesla was first coming out, and I think I viewed him as meritorious, and that was used.

This this is big for amazon internally because amazon makes a percentage of the sale Price. So this is such this is a massive ticket item as if now .

you still have to go through a one day deal though, don't you to go get the car or no.

there's I haven't looked into that. But that when I when I was there, that was why they wanted to get cars on to amazon.

Wired says customers can hop on to amazon autos and search for the hand day making model they want, then find dealers at vehicles and nearby dealers. Shoppers can select trim colonial features, get evaluation in their current vehicle. But that must be how .

they worked IT out. But I mean, company is deal this to product on amazon. You you do seeds some percentage of the sales. So there is no there is no way that amazon's is not either doing that now or or working towards that.

You still get amazon reviews. You get you know star ratings. You probably even get an amazon pick.

That's why amazon pay has sellers pay. It's called a qual quote getting. So if you're listings a product you're paying .

amazon's that works now said that you can buy house on amazon's.

So there there .

are hundreds of different brand. I'm looking at one right now and they'll delivered by december nineteen.

You know that's not weird. If you consider that in the eighteen hundred, you can buy a house by yes.

yeah.

the barn that's on, they had to move on the apple campus when they built a big dona thing, uh, that was a, that was like a series robot type kit.

Here's a forty foot luxury house, three bedroom, one living room, one fully equip pattern kitchen, prefabricated container house for adults living. It's falda sixteen thousand dollars free delivery by january nights .

that reviews, honestly, three point three.

Yeah, that's a good, oh, bad review. Oh, see, you're smart. Well, when you work to amazon, what what division did you work in?

I was, I worked in three separate teams and almost six years, but when I was exposed to, this was my very first scene, which was my amazon dog retail.

So why did you leave and become a journalist?

I don't know. They did IT to its flix tent, and I want to miles. And I had, yeah.

do you have a of purpose striving .

bone in my body? And I didn't want to go my whole life without explore.

Not most of the reviews, mike, are not people who bought IT. They're just people looking at the floor plan .

or it's not sweeping the nation. It's not choice.

Seems you could probably .

buy something that would sweep the nation. Amazon.

clean design, no closure.

Ah, maybe we could list, tick up on amazon.

yeah. Oh, let's still tick up on amazon.

You leave the nation.

And this show has gone full circle. Emily, we have so much more we could talk about with all three of you. You guys are great. Um by the way, if you needed that house before Christmas, you could send a gift card for IT and I imagine for that hand, iconic as well, you know so that wouldn't be a nice thing under the .

tree that be nice.

You've got a nice .

rams on if you lost the card.

So so many other .

stories I would have loved to talk about, but we've run at a time. Michael gan, have a wonderful evening in mohaka. I imagine I didn't involve mesa w and some of those delicious. What are those sandwiches on the they make them .

on that on that cruel .

lauda players. Yeah, I live on ay .

with good. I hope .

you dinner before the show.

Now I didn't. We're going to go grab a bite right after the show.

So start my love .

if I .

love to a mira .

and thank you so much for being here. We really appreciated Emily. You're the best we love have you on and i'm sorry to starve you in new jersey where IT is already after eight o'clock in the evening. Oh my god, what's for dinner?

I think when my husband's downtown making .

palenka, I can .

smell. I gotto .

make up the.

but I up, I brought some wine this time. Last time I was on, we got to the end of the shit. Everyone was drinking IT besides me, but nobody talked about how they .

were drinking. It's definite covered cover my Scott, the men's cow. You looks like you have a nice White. I'm drinking coffee, which is probably .

a mistake together.

And we know what Kathy drinking all look a pedley hills mug. You put your gata right in no?

But thank .

you. Cai gl.

what are more interesting or what A A drink?

A C G cancelled that calm. Uh, she's Cathy gallies on blue sky. You said, don't know more mass on you want to promote blue sky?

No masted on forever. But i'm clearly very invested in my blue guy experience, and I made my great master on servers anyways. So for now will go slippit to blue sky because i'm definitely there .

slippit to blue sky. Baby Emily, are you a blue sky? I masted on an x quoter.

I should say that people can, can find me, follow me at A P. C. Mag, and then i'm on blue sky. I'm i'm still on eggs. I'm trying to figure my relationship to IT at this point.

Are you stuff to my bobs or did you move everything to four lani?

I moved to trying to confuse people.

It's a lot of work isn't IT.

Yes, I just submitted my passport for renewal yesterday, which was a big milestone. Um it's it's alright though I think you will talk about IT being like really, really terrible.

but it's just just .

bureaucracy. He get through about changing yes.

yeah, yeah. Mule top.

muscle top. Thank you.

Thank you.

We have a lots .

of mother tops to go around here today. Thank you all for being here. We really appreciate a great, really great, provocative and interesting show.

Thank you. Emily and mike and Cathy. I'll see you soon with that all of you for joining us.

We do to IT every sunday, two pm pacific, five pm eastern time. That's twenty two hundred UTC. I mentioned that because you can watch this life, we stream the show.

And most of the shows we do, we streaming them alive in discord, of course, for our club members, but also on youtube, witch, we do IT on facebook and linked in ext com and tiktok, yes, on tiktok, at least until january nineteenth and kick. So there's eight different ways you can watch live. But of course, the most people watch after the fact it's a podcast.

After all, you can download copies of the show, whether it's audio or video, from our website, twit dot TV. When you get there, you'll also see a link to a youtube channel, which has the video. Great way to share clips if you want to share a clip of our discussion about tiktok with a friend, that would be a great way to promote our show and to show your intelligence.

And of course, you can always subscribe to the show in any podcast client pocket cast overcast apple podcast of all of the above. Just search for twitter. You know, why were I? I think at this point, we must be one, one of, if not the longest running podcasts in the world, nearly twenty years, over a thousand episode, one thousand ten episodes.

Thank you all for your support. Thanks to our club twit members, your support makes a huge difference. And I will see you all next week for a very special year and episode, will look back at twenty twenty four with some of our favorite ite people.

And then, of course, our best of so this is the last Normal twit for the year. Happy new year. Have happy holidays as as I have said for nearly twenty years.

Thanks for joining us. Another tweet is in the can. Do on the .

train.

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Join more than three point five million businesses worldwide that use indeed to hire great talent fast listeners of the show will get a seventy five dollar sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed dot com flash P O D K A T Z twelve that's indeed dot com slash P O D K A T Z twelve. Terms and conditions apply. People are driven by the search for Better. But when IT comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search. Match with indeed the hiring process can be slow and overwhelmed, simplify hiring with with indeed, indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over three hundred and fifty million global monthly visitors according to indeed a and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast dits the busy work use indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. Join more than three point five million businesses worldwide that use indeed to hire great talent fast listeners of the show will get a seventy five dollar sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed dot com slash P O D K A T Z twelve that's indeed dot com slash P O D K A T Z twelve terms and conditions, supply.