TWiT 996: The Quiet Office Crackdown - Starlink Backtracks, AI Royalty Heist
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Hello, you watching this week in tech with your temporary host instance, son, along with my gilgan digital no matter technologists and Emily travel bus, who is senior reporter of PC magazine and is an expert in A I electric cars, not surprisingly, with looking A I and the electric cars, but also the U. S. Navy security unique with the styling satellite installed on a neighed warship, and also the latest I ideas, when IT comes to casual working, should you be tracking your employees? Not all to come.

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You're watching this week in tech episode nine, nine, six, recorded on september the eight, twenty twenty four, the quiet office crackdown.

Hello, we welcome to the weekend tech, your chance to hear about the latest news from journalists up and down the field and indeed up and down different countries today they on my name is ian thomson, number reporter with a register standing in folio report, who is coming out and about on his travels. And we have an absolute steller up for you coming from senior reporter on PC mac and I to make sure I get this right. Mid driver lbs per perfect.

Okay, fine. I only time we will have set so far. So we don't want to get that one wrong.

Now you're an electric car mavor by study of new york. Um it's great beat to be on of the last couple of years. I would .

have though it's a one of the changing and I.

Yeah that's very busy indeed and journey from bus ownership places uh mick elgin and who you probably remember as the form the present of technology here on the channel but who is also colomiers author, uh prolific journalist and currently glad traveling the globe trying out different food stuff s and introducing into others our things .

in bus loan fantastic. Um you know we drinking a lot of cover and uh trying all the delicious things has been really, really great. And um we have a doesn't experience the best and experience which starts next week. So um it's gonna a lot of fun.

Have you not put on fifty pounds and you start to because you build a very successful and you're still looking slim? I don't understand.

You do IT that's very kind of you, but it's entirely untrue. No, it's it's tough actually. Um we we're either on on the get you know during experiences we are eating a lot, drinking a lot, stuff like that or not. We fast a bit, we walk a lot. That sort of thing .

been living right some time. So yes, excEllent. right? Let's crack on the show. thanks. We ve got some actually duties of topics as all in specialist areas that you ve been dealing with.

Very sorry that we can't have amy web here, but she's seeing a bit poorly today, but so i'm sure to be back and it's always worth watching. So right, the story, which I think is IT grabbed my attention. IT grabbed lot of people's attention.

The U. S. Navy is going all starling now IT appears.

The iie report states that certain, uh, officers on u. The U. S.

S. Worship decided that using the navy wifi just wasn't good enough. So they installed LED. The stallions ant had a secretly and then hit IT from the captain, uh, who's now I think probably got a fatal blaming h on his record.

IT kind of reminded me of when wifi was first to inro's ced in offices and to consumers. And if you didn't want to use the office wifi, far too many people plugging in sort of unpatched unmonitored routers just to get their own, you know, particular trend. This I mean, like you around, then it's on earth.

This is going on and doesn't IT doesn't look good for the U. S. Navy, certainly. Mike, I think you've build yourself. Sorry about that.

Uh, what's interesting to me is I really don't understand how IT works on a ship, right, that's sort of tossing in the waves and so on.

How does IT to maintain line a set with satellites? Tes, um i've also seen people who maintain the starlight connection on their cars so um but IT is IT is a fantastic cally, this uh story you're referred to of the of the sailors um a it's a fantastically insecure thing to do and there is a lot of uh a lot of U S. Adversity use all kinds of consumer technologies to track troop movements.

Uh if you remember years ago they were able to determine that uh where where the secret um special forces bases were in afghanistan because they saw fit bit data of people running around doing lapse around the around the base and IT was just a matter of hacking that data in this case who knows how secure the stuff is but clearly a horrible, horrible idea and um but I think that the illicit use of um of starlink, whether here anywhere else, is it's going to be a big, big deal. I know that in cuba, for example, then there a few times they there's a uh hidden underground of of putting a satellite dish on the roof. And then you, the person who managed to get that satellite dish charges all the neighbors and they get spanish language, american programing and tele mondo, all that stuff.

And it's just a quite the way the business work is, is just amount of time. So if they can maintain IT without getting caught for a year and a half, then they start turning a profit. They get Better before then they lose money. And and so all over the world where you turn to to to prevent people from um getting access, this is going to be A A big deal in starlings is ideal for this kind of thing in we think IT makes the U. S.

Navy look worse than a little bit of a different way, not as much. Cyber security is just like how do we pay so much in taxes and so much money goes this organza and they can't get secure high speed internet on their ships for their people. I mean, that's just crazy.

I just there's a some disconnect tween solon valley or I don't know musk and puts himself in that camp. And the U. S.

Military and the military used to be the most technologically y advanced. I mean, absolutely twenty, thirty, forty years ago. And now the tech industry has kind of taken over in terms of innovation and speed of that. And I think this just highlights IT is crazy that the meter would be so far behind really well.

That's the other part of the stories that they're, in fact, testing store link as well at for you sufficiently in the navy. So there there sort of punishing some says are doing IT illegally. And meanwhile, they also testing IT to see if it's this is something that the navy can use.

And uh, we'll see. I mean, IT seems this is yet another case where elan and elan mass company, is doing something the government should be doing. If the military wanted this kind of satellite coverage at these kinds of speeds, IT should have deployed IT. I mean.

mean, there was attempted be a radium network, which I think I was eventually bought by, but that's very low band with. And you know, yes, IT does have global coverage with very severe limitations. I mean, yes, you right.

I mean, the U. S. Military, the U. S. Military gave us G, P. S. IT. Gave us a whole bunch of things that you know wouldn't exist otherwise. And now yeah, we've got starling satellites, I think. Didn't I see a report this week and now two thirds of all satellites tes in earth, orbital owned by elon mask.

some easy for amazon, has the project project caper. I'm not sure what proportion are amazon? Look right. Start liking what portion like chinese as we because i've heard there's just a huge amount of just debris out there satellite um so yeah I don't know what the other option is for the the navy. Like what what do you really think is IT just .

it's starting. They have you know specific um satellites that have to be aimed and the very expensive and they are very difficult and you have to know the kind of essentially time share them with other military Operations. And um so so who knows back to your uh question, the the actual the the amazon version is is a fraction of what starlink is in terms of the number of of satellites.

It's you know five percent or something like that. They're trying to catch up. The chinese were working on IT and you may be old enough gh to remember when bill gates had a uh started called television, oh yeah, try to do this and I never went anywhere. It's been a great idea for a long, long time. And elan musk, uh um uh space ex have been the first uh starting taking a division space sex to actually do something that actually works and its high speed and fast and what kind of stuff I mean help .

so if you actually owe the rockets to go up there. But I mean this is also something that jeff piece s is working on and ensure amazon would very much like to use the services. But it's not quite there.

It's also finding just to imagine what they're using that internet for like I think in the article, the example as they streamed the super bowl, yeah quality of life on the ship. There's gotta be some high proportion of time that members of the military are not doing anything and they just want to talk to a loved one, they want to go on netflix, they want to just live kind of that civilian life. And I suspect most mostly IT would be used for that.

Well, that's that's that's exactly right. This, you know you have this division of the navy called surface warfare. That means you're on ships, right? And these big aircraft Carriers, big battle ships, you think out there at sea, you know the sky know they don't see the sky for months.

Most sailors don't go to above deck for most of their deployment. It's miserable. They're it's like being an underground bunker, something like that. And it's difficult than enough to recruit during peacetime during you know a fairly a fairly good economy when when Young people have other a work options. And so trying to d miserable late, the experience of being on a ship is got to be a priority for them.

It's even worse on the submarine. And I met a submariner once, and he was saying that, you know, diary males are actually centered before they get to the to the shape of their way on long deployments. Because if a family member dies or a family member is very sick, it's gonna ad to everyone getting upset.

And so, you know, those kind of things are, course, if you're in a submarine then getting started, even styling is not going to work in those circumstances. But yes, that was so I guess is a case of technology finding the way and you know it's it's the way these systems work. And we actually speaking of selling, we've also got this backwards fords going on in brazil. And mike, if you made IT down there on your travels.

I have a many years ago.

it's an amazing country.

uh beautiful uh place. And um I I I do think this whole thing is been fascinating to see.

Um because just to explain that can use to explain to the to the view is what's going on because basically IT seems like we've had a very fast backtrack from mister moscow.

This one yes, kind of basically what happened was that of a brazilian judge ordered, uh, some accounts that are associated with the former president bulson ero, uh, and spreading this information to the ordered x to remove those accounts in brazil, right to so they wouldn't be visible to brazilian citizens. H mosque refused, and so they did. They went to the next part of the process.

Would you bring a the brazilian representative of ex, a lawyer, usually before the court, so you can score them in all that stuff, learn that there was no such representative, which is against the lot you can Operate in brazil, that you have a legal representative who can appear before courts and and so basic said, you know you in violation this order so we're going to um ban x what does that mean? What is banning x mean? Meaning you tell the telephonically Operators that they can't display x, they have to block IT right and so starlink refuse to do that.

And so they when after start link and said OK, we're going to start taking away your stuff. We're going to know freeze your bank accounts. We're going to take the vehicles in your own and somebody within the telecoms icons a eaucourt racy yeah said we could even go after their base stations of which they have twenty three and that would severely nee capability of this to Operate. And we're and this is the most controversial part. When we seize this stuff from starlink, we're going to use IT to pay off the fines that x owes us three million dollars in fines.

Totally different .

company or is IT. I mean, this is an interesting thing. It's clearly different company with different shareholders.

But you have one company who's trying to write around the law or another company because the CEO of one is the owner of the other and making all the decisions. And so anyway, that's where IT stands. And so starling capitulated and blocked x now x is blocked in brazil, right? OK.

It's IT just seem like the actual regulators that have got some teeth, unlike american ones. I Emily, is hard to imagine american regulators taking such a opposition on this. Even the newly revealed F, T, C or F, C, C.

That's my my first thought is like, well, they did that. I cannot imagine that happening in the U. S.

And is just such a different perspective because I think for them, they're just using the service. It's not no twitter x starling. They're kind of these like darlings of the U S.

Like we could ever turn on our own and in turn IT off. But brazil, like I don't care about this company, I just are people use IT. I mean, there is an issue there.

Is there too much government power of the people are are loving the service and using IT for good. And how can the government just shut IT off? And I think that's the central issue here. That mosque is also reacting to but yeah, just my my first instinct was exactly what you said you know I was just like, wow, all right, that's different. It's a different place there.

Well, the roots of this, the roots of this is very different as well. So in brazil they had A A A january six type event where people stormed the capital on behalf of the present who lost an election. And unlike here, they really went after everybody, including the president.

So here we're all, you know, takes us years and years to do any that stuff. And i've been talking about. This issue of regulating social network, you see governments all over the world, the U.

K, europe, united states, elsewhere, dragging executives of social networks, uh, yelling at them, complaining about things, and then ultimately thrown up the hand. And well, what are you going to do? And exercise is actually doing IT. They're actually saying they specifically said elan must just because you're rich are not above the law and the the judge in the case uh and day more as called elon mask, a super t national entity. And this is interesting .

turn of phrase.

absolutely. And what and so I wrote a piece about this because I think this is an emerging thing that exists in our world that ever exist before I call them super national oligarch uh because basically with a combination of space x and x and tesla, uh, somebody like in billions of dollars, somebody like in a must, doesn't really have to obey the law all the time.

And I pointed out that if there was a space war, for example, of brazil, try to shoot down space and satellite and spaces, decided to shoot back at brazilian satellites in retaliation, this is a war that elon must could win, because elon must personally controls a bigger space program and a Better space program in the nation of brazil. And so you have these people who are rising in power, who have nation state like power and ability. They have um like I said, space programs, other people um the phone to this, for example, if you remember we're talking about this information swing the the social networks. In two thousand sixteen, the biggest threat was from russia, from a company, a privately owned company, all the internet research agency, working behalf of its client, putin, right? And that's the same guy who owns the private army we recall, uh, who attacked russia itself.

Well, he did. No, I mean, he's currently the world record leader on the most less sucessful skydiving Operation. After his plane.

they Normally they followed the windows but um I guess they made IT exception .

yeah that is more traditional for defining ration sudden inly.

But but this is an individual with the with the with with a massive global influence Operation and an is one guy who owned that okay another one is, uh, we're talking about um so so jeff basso is another potential one space program media empire. Uh plus he can he could if he wanted to kind of tweak what kind of books people read, don't read, uh, get exposed to get get uh wanted to and then we're talking i'm sure we're going to talk later in this episode about telegram and C E O.

Next in that cool. Yeah yeah but but here's .

another guy, power der off. He's a 3i super national oligarch。 This is a guy who are citizenship in four or five countries, and he didn't have to go to france.

If he never want to france, he never would have been arrested in all the things we're going to talk about, never what happened. And he in fact, at any time could flee france. Never be caught.

He just go to another country that he's a uh of, including russia. Probably not a great idea. The russians are not fans of telegram. So so we have the rise of these multi hundred billionaire.

And in within you know six or seven years we're going to start having trillion air and they're going to have space programs and arms and information networks and so on. And we have to do something. And I think it's interesting that brazil is the first country that's trying to contain one of them.

Well, this is there. I mean, I do you think is going to be action on the U. S.

Front on this government gona get nervous and start, or is is still too much. That smacks of socialism, right? Well.

I think you can have a there's a really interesting discussion here and just the the principle of the issue, which is like, sure, a social media company take something down or any internet company takes something down at the request of a government yeah and if you flip that to the most extreme example, which everyone would agree with, we don't like, is basically if russia asked google to stop showing, you know, real information about the war in ukraine and certain results, or or you know, an account that was trying to to give light to something that putin was doing in russia.

Because, of course, if there is no information like that in russia, nothing is going to change. So russia can ask U. S.

Tech companies to do the same thing that brazil is asking x to do. So I I do think they're different situations, but I mean that I think this is the principle and I do struggle. I do think that russia should not be allowed to do that, yes. But in the brazil situation, do we think I should be allowed? And I think that's what muscular is trying to get out in in his way.

yeah. I mean, I guess the thing is that once you reach a certain level of being almost post that economic, if I were, if any, fine that can be levied on you is, you know and just back of the game stuff, you know so many, amazon, google, microsoft, all of, I mean, when facebook got called out with the cable journalist s scandal, yes, they paid what, five billion that was equivalent of less than three profits.

And they got the money back on the insurance, mostly. anyway. I mean, what is the solution to this to do? One of the ideas that was posted to me a couple of weeks ago was in fin london, some parts of a scandal abia. They actually are actually find, based on, from a company perspective, revenue or profit, or from an in individual perspective, your individual salary.

Now, this LED to earn unfortunate instant with a guy of actually interviewed at nokia, who received europe's largest traffic fine, but going seventy eight miles an hour, fifty million our zone a um because he just cash in a whole traction nokia shares and this was in two thousand and one when they were still a viable company. Um you know we've seen this read more recently in the u where they are talking about with gdpr violations, you get find as a percentage of your revenue. I know you think this would work in you, so would have just people kick up a storm .

about IT finds for for violating things.

Well, foobar finds based on not on set amount on a proportional earnings.

Uh, well, yeah, I think that could that could happen. I'm not sure if that would IT makes logical sense to me. I would it's hard to screw that with should the fine be proportional to the severity of the crime and then and how do you evaluate that? And then people would say they are getting treated unfairly just because they're making money and isn't making money good for the country.

And you know, of course it's the U. S. So in what can happen. But is IT .

one discussion? Yes.

one thing is interesting about the you that the brazil case is that the you know uh elan musk is famous or his controversial stand that he believes that whatever is legal should be allowed and many of the things that people have asked him to moderate a way off of x or legal, they're just defensive or their disinformation or something like that. And his contention was, if it's legal, IT should be allowed in every country.

So every country has its own legal threshold and you obey the law and going to further in terms of censoring and that sort of thing. So the order from the judge to move those was illegal order from a judge, which was then backed up by the supreme quarter of brazil. That's the law of the land in brazil.

But elon must disagree and said, no, this is an illegal order. So his his position was I decide what's lego in brazil and not the brazilian supreme court, which again, uh uh uh super national oligarch would think that way, right? But but make no mistake, the U S companies sensor all the time, uh all around the world, uh especially social that works. But even, uh, companies like apple removes all kinds of apps that that promote democracy in china.

Uh, yeah, I was getting at.

yeah, they do IT because they want the money from those countries. And I like to frame that way because people one way to usually framed by apologists of silicon valley companies is what they have to obey the law in the countries where they are. And my my position is, no, they don't.

They're violating human rights for the money. That's what this is. And so we shouldn't sort of sugar code and give them a pass.

Apple does not have to Operate in china, right? They want to because the tones of money. So you know we're we're just hanging over the area, right? I mean, yeah uh uh of what you sell out for well.

I thinking the in the chinese V P N case family and yourself will referring to one of ash cases, IT IT makes IT such an ethical grey area because yeah apple, well, okay, the rumor was that china, the chinese government basically told that you need to ban these VPN. Apple said, no. Chinese government said, nice factories you've got here. You shame something, what to happen to them and you know, I mean, so that kind of pressure and the pressure that you mention deity is from russia, is also incredibly troublesome. So there just doesn't seem to be a way out of this, which is gone to make everyone legal, everyone happy and everyone satisfied with the results unless this something new that can be seen on that.

Well, I another access of power, which is just the user base in brazil because, you know, mask and twitter and in all, all companies, literally all companies want that money from that emerging and probably emerged already in many ways, country with tons of people who U. S. Companies and they want their money. And so that I wonder if that why must comply the future of the platform in that region?

It's interesting prospect because, I mean, as we've seen, I think part of the problem why we we've seen so many of financial worries and laos within silicon valley firms here is that essentially for things like social media companies and search as well, there really is no more growth to be had domestically and internationally is slowing down massively. So you know, a git nation.

Yeah, struggling financially. I mean, last thing they want is brazil. You saying you .

can't come here to plan? And yes, one of the first is growing, I should imagine.

right? So I like that brazil recognize that power. And I I wonder if that's partially where I came from. Um that being said, I don't think brazil is some kind of shining peak of morality here like there's incredible corruption and in huge issues.

So it's kind of just to two people fighting and I don't know I don't even know who is right because by the way, brazil hasn't released you know the names of the accounts that they didn't like that we're spreading content on x. So we don't even really know what's going on here. Yeah out there.

If IT turns out that spreading leoni content something and it's just like, well, then you should have beat but will see I mean, topic we discussing the only a telegram out out of interesting you both users or no never onest I hardly .

even know what IT is got IT.

Well, I mean very the there's been a lot of misinformation this week about this whole thing. First of its not end to end encrypted for a stop. But if IT was run out russia now, as you say, markets, we have this transnational guy running IT, who was arrested by the french police, held for three days.

And I think the ignorant of that, I think, was something which really came off. And he released a statement today saying, well, okay or same in this week saying, this shouldn't have happened. There are legal ways to go around this.

You didn't need to arrest me. By the way, we are changing our moderation policies little bit. I mean, IT IT does seem like it's these microbes that need to be made to actually rain things in all in just saying, no, let IT all go.

Yeah the um one interesting dimension to this is that i've been having a discuss about this with a friend of mine who's who's got some interesting ideas about IT.

Is that like how do you how to use the government decide to go after a company or go after its C E O personally so you know if if if face, you know meta does something on facebook that objectionable theyll find facebook the company two billion dollars whatever, then the company pays that fine. They don't put mark zuker berg handcuff s and dragged in. Uh and so so that's an interesting choice.

I don't know all the particulars and that I could be that, that the company itself is just stumbling its snows and there's no there there as in brazil, there's no rope to choke. There's no body there to here you have this international thing that just slides in to the internet and uh, you can't really get your hands on the company. So you go after the CEO.

I mean, maybe that's you're thinking we we again, there's a lot of details about this. We don't know essentially what they're doing as they are claiming the french authorities are claiming that telegram is not CoOperating because of the policies of of draff himself because of his leadership with law enforcement. So if there's csm material, there's terrorism going on, they actually didn't list terrorism in their list of crime types, financial irregularities and so on.

And so since he won't CoOperate, their their their accusing him of all not collaborating with the word i'm looking for of basically allowing IT on purpose ah that could be the equivalent of a bargaining position. They have ready got ten concessions and telegram s already changed the enter policies and change the wording on their website and added some features and put a report button to flag illegal content. And they now let people, which they didn't before, report private chats to moderators.

And so it's already had an effect of changing telegram and how IT works. And maybe that was the aim. But but again, like the elon mass case, we don't really have all the particulars.

The french government is not. They talk is an ongoing investigation. So we really don't know all the details.

but it's interesting. Sorry, angry.

I just fired.

That was interesting power l in how the A I industries is developing at the moment because fully you this is something you cover a lot and you know we've now had most of the major players and now N I I saying, yeah okay some kind of regulation is something will accept. Um I should imagine there's been some frantic lobbying going on and and talk behind the scenes that does IT seem like the A I companies themselves are getting behind the idea of, you know, maybe just a bit little bit of overside .

wouldn't hurt uh, for me yeah yeah sorry yeah so I mean, I I wrote about anthropic was like, yeah okay. We should be regulated and this should be the bare minimum just testing before you launch something different protocols to make sure that you know you haven't release some pure evil into the world, basically. And then who else was, I mean, elan mars coming, he tweet about that.

He in support of regulation in the california bill. It's certainly a far less developed opinion. Just a tweet where as anthropic route, a multiply letter laying out all the issues and why regulation was a smart idea. I did think that in that particular case, meta and google and OpenAI were not a fan of the california.

I okay. Well.

I think I might be at a day and I know I don't IT past and you're just waiting for a new some .

to to approve IT or not?

Yeah, yeah, you know who cares if they if they approve of IT as well? Like, no, they don't they're not gonna want to be regulated. no. So there's also dead.

IT is often times, whether comes to reg regulation of the tech industry, everybody says they want regulation. And what they mean is that the giants want something that some regulation is very expensive because IT in limits, uh, startups from getting in the space and startups want regulation that hubbs the pay for the advantage of the of the deep pockets of the larger companies. And so you know if if AI companies, and again, I don't have the details either, but if they were against the california regulation and came around to IT, my guess is that those companies had them tweak k IT. A bit and make and make a make a barrier to entry uh of cost for for upstarts because they like that kind of regulation.

And yeah, I do appreciate that they are supporting this bill because for the past two years since ChatGPT launched, i've basically seen open and all all these AI companies using calls for regulation almost as A P. R stunt. Okay, we're ethical.

We want regulation. We want regulation. And the until headlines were like, but I wants regulation, creates this atmosphere that, oh, there are so ethical and they they want to know to do good and but I don't hear any specific ideas on what to regulator. I didn't see them working to get anything across the line. I just felt like complete hot air and and so to actually have anthropic musk know what sounds like the other big ones supporting a specific bill that has gone through a legislative process and could go into law, I thought was really significant in a breathe of fresh air. Ir, for the past two years of nonsense.

an anthropic. Do you seem to be particularly a forward thinking on this? They they made IT very much a selling point almost from the start, that, you know, this is not wild west stuff that like some people who we used to work for a .

type thing yeah IT seems like that there was A A good guy and I know, what do you .

think like yeah they happen aggressive at, uh, harvesting content without permission you know ask for forgiveness that sort of thing which is um you know a major issue in in the industry that is going grab stuff. And if somebody complaints, maybe they'll hash out a deal. Uh OpenAI was not able to get a deal with the new york times.

The new york times suit them but IT was just basically um you know they didn't like the terms and the negotiations they had. So the new york times turned into a lawsuit. So is that this is a big a big, big deal, which to me is not um ultimately not going to be a big deal about a the copyright of content that's used to train these models because again, the chat by element uh of A I is nice but the real power of the eyes, all these non chatbot things.

Also it's not necessarily large language models. Its small language models, uh, pushed out to the to the edge to to the end user as far as possible and that there's a lot of effort behind in an hard work industry to to be able to facilties that. So the the place when people think of A I, they think of general A I chatbot trained on huge data models.

Well, that's cool. That's nice and all that stuff. But I am looking forward to the cure for parkinson's disease. I'm looking forward to all these other millions of other things that that a is canna bring to us. And I I really think that you know d also like to see legislation in california to Grace the wheels of this thing because A I can have enormous benefits um but we need to be open ied about the risks and the dangers and to attack those I feel like some of the legislation i've seen um not necessarily the california one, is all these sort of prefer issues that in the larger scheme of things is not going to really make a difference.

Does that mean so many of the A I A I systems, which we don't see talked about as much, are new international companies having their own small countries, having their own highly specialized ed ones? I mean, Emily was something like this. Is regulation actually gone to work or our companies didn't say or we just testing? Something is not appropriate system, therefore would not actually libel in anyway.

Of course, IT depends on the enforcement and how seriously they take that what this legislation doesn't do to solve all the issues with A I we we don't have california, you know, White horse saving us from issues like copyright, which might brought up, which I don't believe is addressed in this bill. It's more about safety and testing protocol.

And you're right that anthropic, there's actually a loss you against them for using this one data set that has copyright books in IT. So I mean, all i'm sure all of them are using IT, just anthropic admitted to IT on record. And so they got they got a long suit.

But i'm pretty sure all these companies are just training on all the same data, just gobble up everything is out there. At some point, they'll run out or slow in in what they can get unless it's open eyes getting on these content deals that they're working on, the the york times denied them. But at some point is just gonna.

The differentiators going to be more like how you use the tool, how IT works with smaller models, have compatibility with other aspects of your tech life. So all of this is is very, very much not regularly. There's just one bill in california that saying, you know don't put out something hay ness with the potential to be hay. And if you do, we have the power to say that's hainous stop. That's previous what we're .

getting IT looks like Gavin n usis gona sign IT I mean is thinking presumedly about a presidential run at some point. So and he is very much the consulate politicians. So it's a possibility.

It's one of the things that we're gonna to go into, but is more a lot more to cover. Uh but coming back on on the copyright thing, the internet arc live will be come up shortly. But in the meantime, leo will be let tending and letting you know what's new on the club tweets on channel.

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Back slip and hope you are enjoy enjoying your trip over to the east coast at the moment. Now we were talking about companies regulating and trying to and trying to crush out the competition a couple of minutes ago. And we have the disturbing news that the inter net archive has lost its lawsuit, being sued by a bunch of publishers.

And if you are not familiar with the inside really missing out on something rather nice, basically, they are kind of books, music for short term loans. I mean, in the case of books, maybe one hour a time um but they were taken by book publishers to court. They lost their appeal and now he looks like fifty five hundred thousands uh books.

Many scripts, documents that would otherwise not be available as are good not be available, are now basically going offline for the duration ation. Um IT comes back, I guess, to what are saying about regulation? Yes, copyright yes is important.

But you know when something like this, which was providing a very low cost, very a free free service in mineral guards, is now basically having to shuttle its its books. A question for both of you. I mean, kind of something about the incident. I can survive in the modern environment or should IT?

Yes, yes, I may.

Was very straight forward.

yeah. I mean, it's it's this case actually may help the financials of the internet archive because now in the news people who support IT may be more inclined to support IT with donations and and financial things, but which the whole issue of books and libraries and in this case the open library, which is the the thing, uh the part of the internet archive that is under, you know, the loss that case is where my sisters, a librarian, they, you know, librarians are radical free speech people.

They want to get all the information out to everybody who wants IT period. That's what they want to do. But when they when they loan electronic books, they have this pretend scarcity thing.

So you you go to one the, you know, one of the big library, subscribe to different types of services that that offers the electronics books. And you go there and a popular book. You might have to wait three months or four months because they don't have certain number of copies.

It's this pretend scarcity that protects the corporate holders. And it's weird IT doesn't make sense, but that also doesn't necessarily make sense to make all books free because then nobody would write them because they're be no money involved. The internet archive is like a is doing something that even your public library can do and doesn't do, which is just unlimited, that they don't pretend to have scarcity in digital books.

They just say, you want to check out this book and borrows this book, then go for IT you there there are no limitations and that's what they are being sued for. So old thing is kind of weird. I really, you know I really don't know what did I really don't know how to um in the perfect world, all libraries would have unlimited books or unlimited amount of loan. Know a million people could borrow a book and also others would make a living. But i'm not sure how those things go together .

yeah I I don't know why I feel like I might be trendy to support the internet archive, but I I feel like what they're doing is a little bit questionable. Um I don't know why. Like it's maybe this is like you know a bad stance or something, but I think i'm just going to run with IT and it's just like why are they able to just put out copyright books for free?

I mean, there are not profit, which is good. So that means they have less of a motive to do something bad with IT. Or like accelerate that behavior in oil that spirals out of control, which is different than for examples in A I system which is consuming CoOperated books and just tanking the publishing industry and the making all the profit so that I think that's probably the difference between the two.

But I mean, yeah, what's the incentive to right books if there is no value on IT in society more widely, what's the incentive to create quality information if their society doesn't put a dollar sign on IT and IT? Just the whole internet has kind of like brought us down on the infant quality. And I maybe this is an a way to start putting IT IT back up. And that's that how I feel about IT now I .

me know you may be think about IT in the um we know you work at P C mac now I used to work at P C mac when I was a print publication and in the U K. We charged what three, I think, about three or three or four pounds for reach months issue. And people paid the and IT funded, you know, the P.

C. Mac labs, which were internationally recognized as being downed to what they did. So if people are giving the stuff away for free, then where's the funding onna come for for that?

exactly. And I mean, I have some familiar influences to my dad is a publisher his whole life, and I just I grew up learning about the history of the whole industry and just seeing a kind of go down. And there is some something weird going on where we have access to more information, but we don't feel smarter. So what's going on?

Have some interesting psychological research saying the stuff that you read online you retain for much less long. And IT said of in and out is supposed to if you shut down and read through a textbook or a novel or something like that, I would get more entangled in the brain patterns um unto you know you take you more seriously you think about IT more I mean, mike, I take your point about librarians because i've known a few and they are absolutely bad asses when IT comes to free of information. But and then I ve said is a non profit is run on a tiny shoes and IT does have an outflow books that you couldn't get elsewhere, you couldn't even buy. But at the same time, to the point ams, which I kind of agree, what is a journalist myself, if people are willing to pay for content, then was the incentive.

I think that my gut feeling tells me that they should at least follow something, uh, similar to with the libraries have to follow. There should be some kind of of international bestseller that just hit the market is a hot new book um you know maybe you do what libraries have to do where you set up a system where you have to wait for that one, but that book is out of print that was printed one hundred years ago.

This precious black, the three people who want to read that, read that you know, in an unlimited way. I think there's a there's a happy medium. And ultimately, as I understand the internet archive, a big part of what the their mission is, is to retain things and and basically not allow like the way back machine, for example, to not allow us to lose stuff that was put on the internet.

Okay, well, so unlimited a loan of hot new books that just hit the market doesn't seem directly in line with that particular part of the I could be wrong about that, but IT seems like IT is important for them to digitize all the books that they can and also to make them available. But the limited part I think is the part that is um I would personally like to see that. But it's I think if libraries are limited, they should also be similarly limited.

Yeah yeah. I mean.

it's it's problematic.

But I mean, it's as you point out, we are losing collops amounts of data, close month of content simply because if he goes out of print and it's not online, a family right of who I can't name because he kill me used to work at abbey road studios.

And therefore, example, they have a beetles bootleg, or beetles mastering stuff which can only be played once because they've only got the hardware and the heads on the time machine to actually play at once at any kind of like decent quality. Now those kind of circumstances of obtain what they did was ripped the best quality copy they could, but then they are not going to put that out because, you know it's until I know the remaining beetles decide to let them. But we are losing a cost alone of content. There is talk that all the stuff that was stored on microfiber pe, for example, is going to be lost within the next twenty, thirty, fifty years maybe um that's gonna a color lost to humanity. But yeah, letting a letting a library do in a sensible way seems to be, you know, the way forward on this.

Yeah I so I majored in history and underground. I want to at columbia. And I remember they took us all into the library one day, and we met with the columbia rare manuscripts librarians.

We saw incredible chives, and they brought us into this room. And they relate, by the way, a huge amount of history is being lost because it's not being recorded on the internet in all of us. You know, the history nerd students were just a gas like the history is being lost. And so I yeah the internet arch eive where they are going to solve that problem and know the best we have right now is that I just wonder, like thought experiment would would be Better if the libraries were funded to do that or is that this private effort? And it's just it's like the same question on everything, right?

What is interesting way you I mean what they actually in the process of digitizing the stuff when you were there? I mean, IT seems like some organizations are now they ve I mean, the british museum is now given permission for some of their areas and most valuable documents to be scanned and put online. Um is that kind of voluntary thing the way forward?

Yeah, they do. They do make a lot of efforts, and i'm sure there are tons of efforts going on around the country and in the world to do that as well. And it's not just the interact.

I mean, they ve been doing this forms of documentation in different types of technology, you know, way before this. There's other forms of public public sizing, things that are not on the internet that I would have gone lost that you know libraries and others are are keeping going so they'll keep doing their thing. I mean, I just suspect they don't have the technology or, you know, that means in a lot of ways to do what the internet archive is doing, or they might focus on something special.

So like the cumbia archives, they have tons of stuff about new york city, you know, during world war two. Or just would IT specifically what was happening in new york clink throughout history, and that's kind of like their focus? Or if they have some rich alarm, who has no this that connection to abb roads studios like you and you wanted donate that one thing to like the colombian chives.

So they have these these treasures. Um so it's different it's different than than the internet archive and the international archive spends just a huge reach. So I think that's why we talk about in these .

discussions indeed indeed um well, if we're talking about actually paying for copyright and in those sort of things, we had another story this week where I got to say part of me was kind of impressed with this person. In part of me, the more you read into IT, the more just lying. He sounds like a bit of a scum back but still um the FBI has gusted a museum and I think the musician is south CarOlina um who has been using A I to create start to create music in conjunction with a couple of other people then putting up on spotify when he first tried IT with his own music, he couldn't make enough to live on um so that he got this automatic ticket generated music, put IT on, released a bot army to start downloading IT and streaming IT from spotify in other services and by some reports was pulling in one point two million a year from this by by the time he was finally called IT. Is this future paying for content actually going to people like this?

The wrinkle in this story is that he was he had set up bots to botton, listen to IT. So the downloads were his own bots. That's the the most shady part of what he was doing. I mean, if he was uh, putting up music to people are enjoying and and download because they liked IT so much, I think you know that would be great, right? He was a he was doing six hundred and sixty one thousand streams per day ah and um and he how many how many songs city make, he was just like thousands of hundreds of thousands of songs and if they were good enough songs that people would， you know they put him in their players and and stuff like that, great but he was just mostly bots so was just a he is he was the producer, the consumer, everything and just extracting money and .

nobody goes up, begins to record labels and wins.

But yeah, I mean, this guy is crazy. This guy is that absolutely nuts?

You really .

yeah what a crazy guy. And I mean, just obviously became a criminal. He seems like he wanted to seems like he wanted to the beginning be an artist.

He's trying to put his own money up on spotify didn't make any money. Probably was like screw this, screw this whole industry and to take IT down, i'm going to play, I am going to beat them at their own game. And IT sounds like for the past seven years he has been generating A I music.

So this is before ChatGPT, before now we talk about A I so he's just been cranking out tunes on the computer for a while and listing IT on spotify. And I don't know, he was just mad that he couldn't make money like that. So he was I mean just wild story .

is to context realize this snoop dog um recently talked about how much money he makes from spotify streaming and he said, uh for a billion streams, a billion downloads he makes forty five thousand dollars .

to grave would even cover his family that's right.

So that's why I mean that's one of the know he makes his money from concerns from heavy appearances and all the other stuff. But it's not streaming. No, if if snook talks not making any money from streaming.

nobody is right. Yeah, maybe then we wouldn't have to watch him the olympics.

He can just go away. What would you there.

jack? They won't go away.

See, though, he was popping up over the olympics, who was about yacht.

is had a deal? Pcs.

really like this. Don't watch the x and he .

was on high school tracking. I mean, this very strange. Yeah, yeah. I mean.

spotify is definitely okay. I wouldn't. Spotify is definitely, definitely ripping off artists, but I went to see an old at all. We got, he is not good these days.

He seventy, called me you who used to be lead singer vult a box um and he was saying, you know, one of the things he really misses about the past was real ties because if you are a band member, you know you could have like four or five smash albums. And that would basically cover your pension fund just in terms of realty payments. But with the advent streaming, there's a lot of all bums out on tour again. If lakes have noticed during iran has been around Morris y is still touring of all things uh, new order have been turing. But I have to say we went to see one of their gigs and the voice isn't there anymore.

But this is a similar issue or it's like now we have access to all this. Music is so amazing, we love we pay eight dollars a month for IT if the music industry is in shambles. So it's we're getting access to more low quality music. So it's the same type of thing I was saying with just books and information on the internet, we're getting access to so much of IT, but now we all complain about how it's low quality.

And this bento, hi, this is like a actually a subject that is near and dear to my heart there. This is something that I talk about a lot with legal and like spotify as a company has there are the ones kind of responsible them in the record companies are the ones responsible for really flexing um artists at this point. Um and spotify is also .

starting to do the starting to get a little city with the A I music of of their own creation like they're starting to make their own putting IT out.

And now that cuts out the record labels and that cuts out artist. So all the money is spotify is money. Now yeah that sort of of the part to me that really starts looking like, okay, trying to cut out musicians and the regular levels .

he talks doing the same thing yeah .

I mean also the the thing that just kind of grow my gear but I mean back when I in the in the other room doing the video cause I got a bunch of cds behind me because when i'm working, it's nice as simple you to start C, D. And player, and you work to music and there is, what if you sort with all the cds so that, well, I like to own music. I don't like to borrow IT and spotify. And I think tiktok, an apple of all, said, basically, if you snuff IT and your relations don't have your password, then you no longer have that music. You know, this idea of passing down records and books and rest of IT to the next generation could be a thing of the past yeah .

and and the other weird thing that um I think uh a lot of people don't realize is that you were talking about how back in the day, uh you know artist could you know any bands could make real money from the from their actual, you know recording music. And back in those days, they didn't make money. They often lose money on concerts.

So the concerts were promotion for the albums. People buy the albums and people don't realize this. But in the nineties, A C D, uh, with the one song you like and the twelve song you don't care about, cost eighteen dollars.

In the nineties, I just the for inflation. I don't know what that is, but that's how much money people would pay to own music, as you say, the super expensive. And that's why artists, one of the reasons why artists we're making so much money nowadays.

You get a spotify account, you streaming unlimited, but then you go to a Taylor swift concert. And IT costs, how much the cost to go to the concert? It's very crazy expensive. Well.

in the U. K, we've just title oasis reforming. And I gathered oasis weren't quite so big over here. But in the mimic late nineties, they are absolutely huge.

In the U. K, you never. You.

yeah. Oh, really okay, fine. I mean, they were just I don't I IT seems like one or two tracks are known, but it's they're just announced their reforming because well, unofficially, ally, because one of them is just had to pay to twenty million dollars and dettingen officially, it's because I was time and it's time to bring the music back to the people.

And plus a lot of our fans back then are now thirties or forty. They're got a bit of disposable income that see if we can harvest little bit of that. So of course, they went to ticket master, which applied what what the disruptive pricing is, the polite way it's it's kind like eyes don't get IT wrong.

They just pollution onate. Uh, disruptive pricing isn't gouging people for every pending. You think that pay is a dynamic way of more ensuring more policies in the market. But yeah, tickets for that standing room tickets were going from eighty four hundred quid as so over five hundred books. And it's just it's luter surely continues.

It's good, interesting. But you're gonna put that together for me because I remember IT the way you said IT like tories, they didn't make money. And now if something has happened where they only make money on tour, so I ve been kind of like moving that over. So thank you for for pointing that out. Um I just thought about all this because I just throughout my childhood C D collection no oh two days ago.

I am sorry. I just OK and start .

a final collection .

then right I I have .

um it's just so crazy if you think about even in my lifetime, just how radical the music consumption has changed like I looked at my cds and the reason I throw them out, like all of the now city, you know my coveted eval of van city, you know, all these things that are just now, they are just like tattooed my heart. I don't have them, but it's like I can even play those cds anymore. Like I don't no, I don't have A C D drive in my computer.

I don't have a would even called a boom box. Like I don't let us even exist in my brain anymore. So it's like just in just couple decades, like just my entire consumption has changed and that has got to be like one of the fastest swiftest just change.

And in how we Operate to the point where I just just rew IT out there, no other option really. What am I going to do a frame at on my wall? That be weird. What I do.

I know it's although to be honest, there has been a slight uptake in vital sales and then is not because people actually playing vital because he say no one's got a kid anymore. Um they know not a slight optic in is the greatest optick since like the seventies and well, Young know but people actually playing because I don't know again, this this guy, the recording studio was the site.

You wouldn't believe the amount of people who are buying frame L P S. At the moment sticking on the war. It's become a huge industry for the of.

People are playing and people are playing and I will say like I yet but you know I like kind of try to get into a is a huge trend right now. Um but I just like I just that stops too quickly.

It's like a lot of other things. Yeah yeah it's like a lot of other things. You know owning and playing final records used to be the mainstream.

Think that literally everybody did IT was just what you did. And then now it's for enthusiast hobby ists um missile enius hipsters. Let me think about, for example, horse riding. A horse used to be that how you got around.

If you have everybody had a farm, he had horses, horses where everywhere now you have to be kind of a horse person and invest a lot of money boats, uh, is another examples. In the future, cars that you drive will be in the same category, but they're still exist in thirty years. Most everybody will take self driving cars and and sort of like passenger drones. You uh but people will still drive the road for around because they you know it'll be an expensive hobby for for super enthusiasts. And that's essentially we are at with val.

Yep, I mean, it's there was light up to in vinal i'm a begin my electronic music and raving so that you knew you with a good D, D, J. They are actually spinning wheels and actually, you know mixing records right there on on track nowadays is far too often, not with all bands, but with some of them, which just somebody comes in, pits a button on the laptop and fiddles around with the sound levels of the feeling, especially, especially good at IT.

But yeah, it's, I would say, just point U S B C D drives an absolute bonus because I like you, I know grade my computer regularly and there is no, there are very few computers where you can get with A C D, D V D driver on. And mike, imagine as you now digital, no, mad, you're got rid of most of the music playing equipment, if not all. Or is the summer story .

completely all, I mean, everything is my laptop. Uh, when we watch T, V movies all on the laptop. Um that's that's all we got so i'm happy to induce a fortune in the laptop uh which is to say that I have an apple laptop but .

everything I was affordable and some of them compared to .

other friends yeah that's true but but is basically yeah I don't have the luxury of any anything like that at all um and and i'm pretty happy with that. It's I think it's great. It's it's a valuable trade de off for me. I'm willing to make that trade .

off yeah yeah I mean, it's there's that flexibility certainly but it's just every now then i'll just you know I mean, middle of A A rush job. I don't have the time to muk about with spotify and various other things sticky ity in the thing and and and go along with IT. But yes, I mean, it's wait of none of you kept a big folder full of M.

P. Trees 啊。 Well, when I moved over here, I laboriously ripped most of my C.

D. Collection and left IT, left IT. Well, yeah, very nice.

But I didn't back up the portable hard drive. I ripped up on tube. I had like about some music and just gone.

Luckily, I mean, the cities was still in storage, but IT was some, let's just say my then girlfriend, now wife, needs some interesting british sare woods that time. yeah. I mean, this is something well as to say we are gonna to deal with though because you know patterns are changing. But I don't just don't say you to be to your point, Emily, you know, people aren't happy with the quality music they are getting by buying large and musicians just can't make IT pay IT. Seems you know it's unless you selling selling these mega stadium tools and I agree, I don't understand how they turn from being well how they turn from being lost making into actually actual profitable adventures though I um but yeah, I mean, we could be out of the golden nature music .

yeah I mean all I think it's all in life support right now, a little bit at the arts just just got to keep going right, right. The A I wave and anyone who can, can support IT shot. Is canada where we are?

I can help, I think that that h technology, which is cause this problem entirely, is also the solution because, uh, there's got to be some a broad based movement towards something like spotify, not spotify. And sorry, sub stack for for musicians and artists. Are you to to basically mix zero or hire people? H collaborate with two or three people to put together music and publish IT directly with whatever, publishing and getting a small cut instead the other way around where the artist is a small cut.

You know uh love to see some sort of uh, thing by a company like apple course that will never happen because they are onna want way too much of the money, but i've love to see somebody build a platform that um is not wear the music itself is um not controlled by studios by by the rest and it's directly controlled by by people and not like a company like spotify where they can publish things. Keep ninety percent of IT ninety five percent of the of the income um does anything like that exist? Yeah it's called but I would .

work on that front. Um yeah it's I didn't know I just a you keep on hearing from bank campus from patro and and others that some people are making ten thousand a months from this but it's that it's kind of like youtube s or in score influences you know it's like, yes, there might be half a dozen and a dozen people who are pulling in mega box but there's an immensely long tail of people who dislike what do I in this month of three dollars twenty and .

how the problem is that basically, you know, people just use spotify or something like spotify, that the vast majority of music listeners just do that because is easy. Same reason amazon because they have a credit and coming tomorrow. So just do that. But but i'd love to see a broad based uh embrace of of like away from spotify because this is really I think that's the that's a problem in a mission of my life. But it's like impossible because everybody loves IT and it's so cheap I use spotify.

I mean, i'm saying all these things. I used spotify. I will one interesting thing in the music world I have done as I have started guitar lessons. So that's been like sixty eight months of that and that's school because I actually directly supporting the musician he who teaches me. So he kind of uses me to make money to fuel his you tours and things. So I don't know what really compelled me under if all of this stuff kind of fits into IT, like wanting to get back to like something real, get back to something off offline, something unique. You know, you can't hear something just not so perfect and available on the internet.

probably to death and run through focus s to see who like this is used to be what making music was about. But on the concept thing I did, I was attending a Billy black concept things a couple of years back. And he makes an awful of money with C.

D. Sales simply because he comes on at the end of the showing us. By the way, i'll be signing at the back and you can sign you know a digital file, not in any way that you could show anyone else. You know, a good luck on the guitar stuff. What kind kind of material I can't.

I mean, when IT comes a guitar, I like, like rock or folk.

okay, and like, well, folk, i'm sure your neighbors would appreciate the folk, maybe. No, not so much.

Give me a lot of create. I really not. I do not like jam in on the cords. I don't have that confidence just yet. I would love to this is IT.

I mean, Michael, currently in the land where almost everyone seems like a guitar and enjoys playing IT, playing and playing IT, often very lovely and badly. So on boston, a subway, my last trip there was something to go .

back yeah yesterday with my wife and I will walk across town. And there was a sort of open park where they had a concert to stand set up and all itself and they were playing and uh, men, they were good. The guitar playing, there's like three people playing a the guitar and beat IT was really phenomenal. And yes, just part of culture here. Um it's a it's just really incredible what they do with guitars around here.

excEllent. Well, I wonder what listen to in new york probably well, I achieve new york to go by somebody screaming at him on the bus, the subway. But we will see how to have a quick word from now.

Thank you. In this episode of this week in tech brought you by look out today, every company is in the business of managing data. That means every company is an increased risk of data exposure and laws and cyber threats, breaches, leaks, cyber criminals grow more sophisticated every day, and modern breaches now happen in minutes, not months.

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i'm glad you mentioned .

hybrid working because that's something we're gonna talking about now in the U K. Price water house Coopers, who are one of the top four or big four accounting firms as they know um given the extended market consolidation has announced it's gna start using location data on its staff to um check on everyone's hybrid work performance to make sure they are in the office or out with clients when they say they're supposed to be. What were the aim of enforcing a three day in the office work week now I don't know there for three days in the office is complete complete an authentic you but um I made Emily. Do you still go into the office or you completely work from home work depending how these days?

So we are pretty much remote organization but I am H I guess. Positive boomer or something because I like going to the office so I elect to go in a couple times a week and kind of wish others were .

too posted boom. I think we just just got a titles for the show there. But yes, it's I don't know, I feel like animal as well that I mean the office usually four or five days a way. Um I kind of like IT because journals m is a very social .

profession. You I think talking .

about ideas, like ideas back to the of the new and sort of thing I I don't know about I mean, i'm sure my you're gona disagree with me on this, but I would say that if the covered, locked down taught me anything, it's that I am in video are a very poor substitute for actually being there in person apart from the fact that you actually have to be there in person, which imposes certain geographical restraint but you seem to make IT work so what's your secret?

Um well is my uh second grade teacher will tell you I don't play well with others so I like to do my own thing and I do but but I think that um so remote work has been one of my beats for for about twelve years or so and um I formed a theory which is that we talk a lot about remote work and digital nomadic m and what that's mostly about is flex work. And what flex work is mostly about is not about where you work, but when you work.

And I think what what employees really want is the ability to stop work in middle the day and deal with their child or and you know, deal with the person who comes over the house to fix the washing machine, whatever. Uh, modern life is too stress that the time constraints on us or are too stress. And I fully support the idea of people like the two of you who want to go in the office like like you are saying.

And the problem is that if you can the offer spy yourself, it's kind of like working from home except at home um but I think people should be able to work you back back up. I think companies will benefit if they they embrace the technologies and the management styles that enable people to work when they want. So you have much more athinking ernst rely much less on real time interaction and um also people gonna where they want.

I mean, I think there are a lot of people would like to leave uh, the house, uh, get dressed, you know, sort to have this mental transition into their work life, helps with work life baLance, all kind of stuff. The problem with these kind of index is what we're reading a lot about is that they are essentially sentiment driven by people who have old kind of thinking about this. Uh, a lot of people who are leaders and organizations became leaders because they're good at working in an office, working with people, managing people directly, one on one.

That's what they're good at. That's why they're succeeding in their in their jobs, why they are in charge. That's why their leaders.

And so they just intuitively feel like I really want to see people. I want to interact with people. And what that essentially is is, is what I would call a collaboration bias.

So you can have a two extremes, you can have a collaboration, but this is driving things like open offices. Facebooks office in mental park is the world's largest open office. If that to cramp is zille lions of people into this one room separated by a little little, you know, sort of like, uh, barriers, like the cubicle type things.

I've been there with a brush 的 tecture as well。 IT looks very, very bizer.

yeah. But what's left behind is that what I would call a deep work bias saw a huge fan of the new ports work and talking about deep work. And those are two separate things.

Many of us need both of those. Some of us need only in one or the other. You're in sales marketing something like that.

You really going to have a collaboration. Buy you your a social creature. That's why you got into that realm of work. I've seen people in sales organizations the way they like four, five people are all thinking like the the group thing thing is like very important to that kind of work. Where's the kind of work I do writing opinion columns?

I really don't want to talk anybody unless i'm interviewing them and and then I just want I want hours of uninterrupted ted silence to do deep work. And in fact, the deep work hype of work is monetarily more valuable than the collaborative, a collaboration type of work. And so when company say, okay, everybody in the organza has to work uh in the office five days week or three days a week, pretty much the same thing as a digital no mad, by the way.

Making somebody work one day a week in the office means they have to live within range of of the office, right? It's it's a tether. It's a kind of way to keep people physically close, whether if you say, hey, where where a remote ganzen you can you can work where, if you want, we'll pay for coworking space if you want to work around other people, but if you want to work from home, you can and if you can work from home, you can work from rome or you can work from anywhere.

And that is something that's very valuable to some people, people like me, who who really like to to travel and move around the world. And so i'm in favor of all the type of workstand les. What i'm not in favor of is blanket edicts which help some people and harm other people in terms of their quality of life. And the the problem is that they are going to lose some good employees.

Well, this has happened already when apple to get them back and still then he lost, which is an incredibly important position. I mean, it's well but .

but there you go that the truth is that companies like apple uh and and others who who have these edicts are also advertising for remote work jobs because they're certain types of jobs like that when they should have done IT on this one where the person is so valuable, uh, and there are so difficult to higher and they're so you know the competition want them.

You see there's a lot in A I that they'll basically just say, hey, this is we know you gna want to work uh remotely so this is a remote position um that they do that in private on the job boards in public. They have this edict because the ranking file employees they want in the office. So even even the the most strident uh uh back to work uh edict uh issue was are actually somewhat hypocritical on this point for the really valuable rare positions was going to say oracle .

were very keen on this and that Larry is spending an all full of time hawaii at the moments. So no, it's one role for one of wonderful, the other at same. But I mean, Emily, we were talking earlier about there is an advantage of collaboration. Working for a journalistic specs can tell these these words um I mean using any indication front on your side on the east coast that this is actually gaining some ground because certainly california, which was very late back about such things, he's really, really seeing a serious crackdown now yeah.

i'm not I haven't heard of too many crackdowns like this. This P, W, C story almost feels like a year old to me, or something like, like a year ago. Was I going there, cracking and down? Everyone's coming back to the office.

Now is like this quiet crackdown where you just hear more and more friends being like, go. I am in three times a week, go am in four times a week and go wow, really and i'm still doing very pretty much. I'm a remote employee, although I guess that I go in.

I think you're right, mike, that IT is really beautiful that now we have a ability to for different workstand les. And there are certainly situations and types of people who really thrive, not going in five days a week off top my head personality types, like you're saying, non collaborative fields where it's just really more productive to just put your head down and go, software engineers comes to mind. And also, if you have a medical issue or if you are raising children and need your or your own care of an elderly parent and you need to be on call, any any on call at home, that you have to be really thrives.

I do think that there is something sad that we don't, as people aren't seeing the value of congregating together in an office, like there's something really off with that. I mean, that was supposed to be the whole thing that why we made cities, why we come together, why we have friends, why we have families, why was the point of getting together? Because there's some kind of social intellectual capital that we can get from each other.

And there is just something off to me that does not happening in an office environment. And I don't know if it's a mismatch. Everyone just hates their job.

And now who are learning IT or the way offices are set up are just not supporting that human behavior. I to me, there is just something wrong that like it's a huge outcry. Words like all I have to congregate with other people that I work with like, I hate that. Like what why? Why do people feel that way?

Yeah, I think there's also a sort of a silly wider point with the growth, the impetus, electronic communication, a lot of people just don't feel feel seem to feel comfortable, particularly post coped with that kind of level of personal interaction.

I mean, I was over seeing family on the coast couple of weeks ago and the extent to which my niece uses her phone to actually make phone calls compared to everything else he does on IT, it's it's gotta down third, fourth, maybe the fifth most common thing SHE SHE uses IT for um and this just seem to be a generational thing. I don't think this is just a copy thing out IT. There must be something some technological reason .

by ended yeah well, I mean, I so somebody thought, first of all, Emily quiet cracked and I love that phrase so much um is a counter to quit quitting against this um but the but but the thing is that you know we um here in the united states over there in the united states of spain, uh which is a culture of of extreme walcott.

Sm essentially and we I know so many people well, i'll give I give an example, some of the people that we meet when we are abroad who join our gas onate experiences, uh, a few of them haven't traveled much because their whole career theyve had two week vacation. We had this couple of tremendous who owned some small retail shops and hadn't taken a vacation in twenty five years or something like that. And there and so we've been condition, I feel like, to certain extent, to get our social life from work in addition to our health care and all the rest.

Um I think that would be much healthier for us to have a professional, a relationship with the people we work with for the most part and have a social life outside of that uh with our neighbors and all that kind of stuff. But again, as E N pointed out, since covet people have become introverts and and sort of like socially uncomfortable and all that self and that that could be helped by people going back to the office. I I don't know, I I just think that I just think that we should we should pursue relationships outside the office.

We need to do something about our working holism culture um and and many the people who like you are pointing out who may be taking somebody or they have responsibility lies during the day. Most of those people are willing to work late at night through the week, whatever IT takes, as long as they can be there for the person they have, do the things they have to do um and again, this is part of that work on holism culture um but there's got to be a way where we can. We're not relying on our companies for social life uh and meeting our future spouses and all list of most people meet their uh used to meet their spouses at work. Now it's I don't know, it's basically .

apps at this point as far as I can sell. You know, if you breach strangers on the door and on the next fbr or something that you likely to get very .

short shift yeah i've worked .

in for much of .

my career of worked the newsroom type environments and um you know it's it's great like the certain aspects of the social part of that is great. I I distinctly remember you know a bunch of people that I loved working with and a few people that I hate IT working with. And and and you you take the the good with the bad in those kind of circumstances.

You figure out how to navigate IT. But I just feel like we're sort of in this between space right now where I think technology will give us ninety percent of we what we used to get. And by technology, am in spain computing holographic representatives of employees sounds ridiculous.

But I think at some point that's going to psychologically feel uh a lot closer to uh in person contact with coworkers, uh, then video conference and all the stuff we do now. And the other point that has been made is that the way that that are work for most people have been internationalized. Even if you go to the office, the idea that your team is all there in the office is very rare. Usually we're interacting with people over the country, all over the world, uh, even when we're in the office. And so so the idea that we're interacting with people remotely is here to stay no matter where we are.

Yes, here to stay. I think it's I think you make a good point and would like the holograms and stuff that would, I think, maybe be Better than where we are now because I feel like you had spent three, four years since the pandemic. And I would say that video chats are not the same as being in person.

I think maybe we can all just agree on that. And in the beginning I was like, it's the same as the same. This meeting is the same.

We have saying everything's same, right? These discussions the same when when emails Better. And I was like this aggressive, like effusive, everything is nothing changed is actually, and I think IT is not the same.

And there has to be a time in a place for all these tools that we have. And now video calls are just one more tool in our toolbox. But I I feel like there is absolutely a place for in persons though our brains .

hate video conference because when we are on a meeting with twenty five people throughout the entire two hour meeting, no matter who's talking twenty four, those people are looking at me and i'm looking at myself and so it's like it's our brains just flip out because it's so natural wear with holographic spatial computing uh meetings uh you you know you have a White board over there and all the holograph are looking at the White board and when that person talking, they are all looking at that person in your brain even though there's nobody physically present. Yeah uh, your brains happy with that because that makes sense IT IT like IT slots into what we understand, uh, in terms of how reality works.

Did a holograph thing at ca last year. He was like, up into a box and IT, you know you you go behind the camera and I can scanned you and like, create basically your hologram and then IT appeared in A A box and that box could be anywhere. Is that what you're talking about, mike?

Uh, that that's the kind of technology we can have lots and lots of IT. But I think the the the the the thing that I have in mind as apple vision pro and there they are new uh, personas. The way the personas worked, there are no longer in a box.

You now you have a torso, essentially are of chest up. I have a person and you can all look at the same content. Uh, you can position them around the room that can be roughly uh, live size.

And we are clearly moving to a world in spain computing where we're going to make what we're going to be able to do what you can do in easily and video comforting, which is make eye contact, will be able to make eye contact with the hologram. Hologram person will be making eye contact with a high gram. And you will feel like an in person conversation with real time, uh, gestures, facial expression, spiders, language, all the things that are not conveyed in written or audio.

right? So I I think that we we are sort of past the world where we all work together in an office and we're not yet to the world where everybody's a hologram can contract uh, these ghosts of living people all of all the time and have uh physical 3d conversations with them。 We're in the between period and I don't think we should be giving up on on IT yet.

I think we need to blow forward with the technology and get there fast. We can unfortunately, if you buy an apple vision pro, it's going to cost you more than four thousand dollars by the time you actually on your credit card. And that is just that's not gonna lie for, you know, mass adoption .

and even sure, the technology had to to use that is gonna fly though, because, I mean, I tried out the called metaverse when I first came out, and I IT was just like, this is, you know, a slight second life, but not as good, you know, with all of these hoog holograms, I get the eye contact thing and body language. I think he's also going to be incredibly important. I mean, ever when you got this, was this a fool body thing? You could interact Normally and move around Normally.

I don't know what this thing was if you really think about that kind of just like a camera feed, like in can I was like video of me on place and then I would appearing very life like in another place. So that's pretty much what I was. The reason the reason .

your hologram is in the boxes that they were uh achieving three dimensionality without the viewers using glasses or anything like that. What where we're headed is uh augmented reality glasses that look more or less like regular glasses where unlike apple vision pro, we see the real world through clear glass, not as a video feed of the real world.

What what apple is really doing is there giving us augment reality using virtual reality gear and high and virtual reality gear. So its video pass through and uh but again, as soon as everybody has the the the right uh kit on their eyes, we don't need the boxes and we don't need VR goals. What we need is a reduction in the Price of manufacturing for high quality augment reality glasses.

And were three, four, five years away from that, which is not to say that this year and next year, we're not going to see a lot of interesting products that are not quite ready for prime time. In terms of social acceptability, in terms of the look of the glasses, they are too bulky that look weird. A couple of companies, they're coming very close. But mark my words, the thing that's going to replace the smart phone is augmented reality glasses. They're going to go wildly mainstream and they will give us holographic um based time basically.

Yeah I just don't feel the hardware. I mean, yeah and I read your piece and i've i've been looking around on this, but two big limiting factors I can see. First of his battery life um because you have gotten have a functional about you can't be lugging these things things in every five minutes or an hour or two hours.

You've got to get a full working day battery out of them. It's kind of about when laptop really became accepted as business tools was when he didn't have to have the same thing pd in b to others SE IT would die on you within if you're doing anything remotely difficult with IT. Um I think the elvie things, as he say, is social because, you know, are we gonna get to a point where if if you're not using this technology, it's going to be a career drag IT were maybe .

I think you .

I don't know. That is an interesting question. I think that I think what's really the the most important thing, I think in the short term about glasses, goggles of any kind, whether it's apple vision pro or rather medical lasses, is with access to AI chap hots and information. And what we really need is some we need a gentle AI, which is A I that's kind of like a chatbot. This actually has is more governed by its own um goals and objectives, its own the ones you gave IT, right?

What look out for me, look around the world, see the opportunities, you know the stuff I like, you know the stuff I want to avoid, you know what i'm doing, you know what i'm going, help me out, give me turn by turn directions without me asking you to give them to me. Um you know that sort that sort of the gentle ai is going so valuable because it's basically empowers the individual person and so I love the cliche that's now, I think, something of a class which is to say that you know most people will not be replaced by A I and their jobs. It'll be replaced by a person partner with A I and I think so I I think that there will be a huge disadvantage for people who don't use this kind of technology or absolutely.

there is a journalist. I use an air system at least once today. I don't trust IT particularly, and I use IT for, you know, get ideas, get, do research .

that sort of thing. I had so much time that checking.

yes.

Perplexity now got the same problem. Is, is this something you've found as well? Em.

oh yeah, absolutely. I think journalism is one feed where everyone keeps saying it's gonna group place us. And I just feel it's actually particularly ill suit to our field for that reason. And also because we're trying to create new stuff, it's not on the internet. So it's just a different, different thing, yes. So sometimes I don't music is almost slows me down so if I have like a clear vision in my head, I just go and I don't want any chat but nonsense to to mess me up but maybe in the beginning it's helpful again the juices .

flowing yeah I mean, it's I did try when you know the first when OpenAI first came out, I was just thinking maybe I could use this because what's the most boring stuff we have to write financial results releases without a shadow over dout. It's built around, you know, analyzing series of numbers. This should be easier pie.

And of course, I felt at the first time I was so no, I hang on. They've got the netting come wrong. The revenue users taken from last year's revenue and you spend more time editing and then you do, then you'd save from writing yourself.

The most working thing I have to do is like writing press releases and we get those, you know I gone N D A. So it's like before it's even released, so i'm still stuck and is like boring projector because the chatbot doesn't know about IT yet.

So it's not not helping me. Is that keep my .

journalist is finding out what somebody doesn't already know and doesn't want IT. But I would I would recommend .

a perplexity or fine for that sort of thing because it'll do real time stuff. It'll you can say, only get this from youtube or only look at content that's been publish the last twenty four hours or um you know here's A P D F and summarized that form. I don't use any other source and just look at this and and give me the you know explain the scientific paper like i'm a sixth greater it'll do all that kind of stuff, which is really nice.

But I think for journalist is the best use of A I is is the um IT IT helps us with blind spots like you see initially when you started and think about an idea you like, oh, i'm going to write about these big tech companies that do xyz and you can tell the AI will let you know here's a company, here's a company, here's a company. Here's a company. What other companies uh, fall into this category, they'll give you two more and you're like, oh yeah yeah OK, you know and so it's a very good way to get to get your list of ideas fleshed out with a couple of things .

you hadn't thought of. No, I mean, I agree. I'm i'm working to feature on the cyber insurance industry at the moment, and it's not an area and new master amount about I was very helpful in identifying some companies that I hadn't actually identified. But I think IT fundamentally, it's gna come down to and you say not going to people, not necessarily going to be replaced by A I, it's going to be people using A I tools that are going to going to get the Better jobs in that regard. But yeah, we're going have to see how that works because I get the feeling we're in the midst of an industrial revolution type shifts so and all to talk about how it's going to be a wonderful AI future where we have tons of later time and we usual this stuff for free. Good on that front, and I don't think of being overly sync on that.

Yeah, be great for the companies. Oh yeah.

I A work out of .

us for the same money. But in the meantime.

we ve got other things to discuss. We've got big review of the electric coin dusters, which will will be leaving on you, Emily, for Emily, because we had some moods this week, but first we had some words from the a, fresh from his, his voice over the other side of the country this .

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We're dealing with enormous monetary costs in terms of running these very large models and in researching the smaller ones, there's also out, to be Frank, about of the the environmental cost a we've just had to report out this week showing the data centres actually, you know, vastly increasing their carbon outputs. Google and microsoft both had to admit they're not gonna IT carbon targets based on this.

Is there a smart a way to do that? What i'll be likely to find a smarter way to do this or is still going to be throwing huge amounts of data in? Yeah, I written about .

the carbon issue too. And IT basically seems agree to have more efficient computing, we need to have more efficient calculations. We need to have A I that's more selective in the types of information IT sift through for each inquiry IT.

Basically, the process of getting the information to the page needs to be a lot more efficient because right now it's taking huge amounts of data centers and electricity to generate you know an image you're stupid little image request oh plenty post playing hockey is like going all around the world and taking like huge amounts of data and it's absolutely absurd. So what we need is um instead vize these companies to make you know cheaper than more efficient computations. I don't worth their while. It's what we did.

I feel like I feel like there is a lot of progress being made and likely to be progressing in future for the things that we're doing now. They're super wasteful, uh, in generating, you know um these models that we use right now. But i'm sure that silicon valley will come up with all kinds of uh, resource hugging technologies to to replace that.

And that seems to be the trend lately. One thing that comes to mind is in video, which has a vested interest in lots and lots and lots and lots of invidia chips, uh, working around the clock in massive data centers, turning away at stuff. And they have this amazing concept, uh called a uh physically I digital twin, essentially the the the idea is that you you take a robot, for example, that's going to be working in a factory.

And the way you do IT now is a lot of trial and area. You you get a big robot ARM to like, you know, pick up wages and move them somewhere, do something like that, and you know, they they they train and train and train and train and train this robot six months, and then they finally get IT. And then the robot can do IT with in videos uh, system.

They basically build the robot in a virtual digital twin of that robot, and the factory and the building, and the temperature and everything is physically at as temperature, uh, inertia, gravity, all these things are in this virtual model. And then you can do this training of the robots, uh, at ten thousand times the speed. You they can practice something, you know, ten thousand times in, like, you know, couple hours.

And then once you've trained IT with a software, just take the software from the digital two. You put them in the physical robot and knows how to do the task. This is computationally gigantic. I mean, this is this, this whole idea of every factory, you know, every car factory, every widget factory, every sort of thing, having a digital twin that continues to live in perpetuity, side by side with a physical thing, where you can model all these things in the factory with individual parts, that if you replace a part of on the robot, you replace a digital part in the viral rt al twin. This is computationally massive. And if this really takes off and everything becomes as robotic, is in video, things that will, and using the system to train IT, I mean, IT doesn't matter how many uh efficiency, uh how much efficiency we can get up for generating chat T G P T and chap t like that because there's just so much more computation to be done with these things.

Well, we would obviously any renewable energy. I yeah that goes without saying yeah yeah.

So it's although data central Operators don't seem to be that good at that sort of thing. I mean, we had a number of data centres open up in arizona of all places. Now I understand the tax benefits are great for the companies in the short term, but little thing of water that you tend to eating large quantities.

But I think IT was facebook of one of the large tech companies also just announced plans to build a data center. Um but to to do to do that they were going have to receive guarantees from the local power company who get certain amount of supplies. And IT just seems like a very intensive process in which people are thinking through at the .

moment right now. I also just want to say, I don't know about you guys. What you just said about digital twin is incredible, but the phrase digital twin is like my pet peeve.

Get like you heard about this concept of like ix, like when you're dating, like, oh, when SHE choose her mouth open, like that's my ic lake. I think that turns me off her immediately like that's the consequence in IT like a thing on tiktok, just like the phrase digital twin is like my tech industry. Ik IT is so jargoning and like this drives me crazy, but I I agree that it's very cool so I just rename IT my it's it's .

used in different ways like the the the one the usage that annoyed me is when you're referring to a digital point of a person, uh that bugs me a lot um a digital twin of like a factory doesn't bother me so much. But yeah, I will change IT because that bugs you.

Thank you. I just I just imagine all these people sitting around the board room being like it's like a digital like a digital twin and they like think it's like really cool term. It's OK down.

We've all got a bug beds with mates. Halo snake, I have a helsa. I gets IT wrong. It's like if I if i'm sitting exam and I I, I get a question right very sorry, I illustrated that answer and you have more questions than you really want as well. Just like your fluctuating in the exam is to thomson, right? Let's have a talk about your but yes, I mean, we've all got this little bug best on sure might you got .

you you know it's yeah mike, do you have on yeah well.

well, I we probably don't have time for IT before the next ad. We can ask me to about that. But like the thing that i've been on a um serious a series of diatribe about is the humanizing of robots and A I which really, really bothers me.

Uh for example, there is a huge uh industry of humanity robots that is coming online and actually being used in factories um from tesla to know there's a bunch of there. There are some companies like tesla that are using their own. So I think there's a couple of tesla robots who are .

like moving batteries.

They are super inefficient. And I do not buy the justification that the the value of humanity robots, the fact that they can Operate in spaces that are designed for human beings, they can sit in chairs, they can get in cars, they can open doors, they can do all if know our spaces are designed for humans, and therefore a human shaped a robot that bends with elbows and his fingers and all that stuff can Operate those human environments.

This is such baloney, uh, especially for factories. Factories are designed for machinery mainly, but also people. They have flat cement floors that where wheel uh can roll and and a robot that is on wheels is vastly more efficient than one that's like walking or using a supercomputer that like actually do by petal motion. So we're designing these factory robots after the bodies of of paleolithic caveman, basically, uh, which makes no sense unless the makers have a kind of god complex. There are so much effort both in software for A I so look at the chat uh GPT four o as you know, they envisions college hanson like talking to us like a regular person, like their friend and and and a email mask himself said that the tesla robot is going to be like your friend and he wants to build twenty million of them or twenty billion of whatever is he said, crazy thing he said.

And i'm just like, why, why, why do you want us to why do you want to hi jack, the mental hardware that we're all born with that that favors other human beings for empathy for all these things? Why do you hi jack, that for your machine? I I really don't trust IT at all and I think we should there should be a movement uh to to oppose uh personality chap pots and personality A I and also humanoid robots because at the end of the day, that's all they are.

They're just they're just designed to manipulate us into treating IT differently from what IT is, which is either software or hardware both, right? So so I really that kind of stuff really bugs me when in apple tomorrow, probably in may, rule out their their new uh genova I personality replacement for theory. Yes, and I want nothing to do with IT.

I I think that the personality and the voice and the international of A I chap hot should be specifically designed to not trigger any false, delusional thinking about the agency or the thought process of the A I IT has none right? And we we need to preserve that intuition. I mean.

we're going precisely in the opposite direction. This I mean, you mention theory, but it's endemic across the space. When you are asking one of these devices to do something for you, it's inevitably responding with a female voice.

Now I understand the reasons behind that because you know, vary psychological reasons. We we are more likely to follow their instructions, which is why you, when the U. S. I fall, started doing cockpit no in cock pit warnings, they used a female voice. Because if they figured out they tested and found the male pilots were more likely to accept IT.

But A A friend of man has two daughters and he said he, this makes him really quite, I can say, angry, but he gets really quite verbose on this, particularly after, you know, and when he gets late, enter the evening that he doesn't want his daughter's thinking that that's exactly what you know you it's it's a woman it's A A woman's job to do these things. Um and then as you say, we don't really want totally human robots anyway because they're vastly inefficient, you know so we are evolved to be a bipedal running species on the save is just why how that works in the common factory setting? I don't know.

I mean, I mean, what are your thoughts on this? Is just that seems like we are going in variety of different ways in all of them. good.

So many thoughts. So many thoughts. Do we have to take an ad break?

Yes, do we .

have to? I feel like we need to, like, dig deep into this. Yeah, I want .

to break and in .

over my head, throw down apple intelligence.

That's far enough. And also we took we should took to the electric vehicle. Talk up to the break as well. But yes, we will do with A I first but but yeah, I mean, it's lot of a lot of unruly stuff to talk about. I mean, it's i've been we've seen by various presentations on this.

We're going to see one on mondays you say that with apple um and once again, the hype is going to be completely over the top I mean, speaking over the top, you saw the tesler robot when they first announce IT some block of shiny shy yeah what presume was about IT was just I couldn't understand the thinking behind that. I mean, was IT just like, do you honestly expecting us to think right? Okay, what's blow know if someone you know shiny suit but well.

i'll tell you, i'll tell you my my, my belief. My belief is that there are multiple motivations for human old robot. Uh, one of them is that so much of what happens in technology is just people trying to actualized the stuff they read in science fiction books when they are kids. That's why all the billionaire have to their own space program and play with the rockets and kind .

of stuff and they also learn the wrong lessons from these books.

Exactly right exactly. The metaverse is a dystopian people um but the um but I think the darkest and uh uh the dark reason if is if you make something that's kind like a human, your kind like a god.

of course I yes in motivates. I mean there's so much money in IT and this is all this got complex and that A I is feeding IT so much it's like the productivity of the you know the boss is all just a big god complex that does happen to be very convenient for the people who are using IT. So it's just like, yes, they're kind .

of like people, but they're .

be me exactly yes.

never right. Yeah one thing on the the at the female voice that bothers me is that for some reason people wanted say, if he female voices are shrill or this, and that they don't like a female voice in the White house. They don't like a female voices the CEO they don't like, don't like a female voice in certain places, but they do like a female voice as like an AI assistance.

And that's just there's something really just perverse about that. And they make no mistake that is not power for women that is like just a further ignored in of women as as kind of like weird, subservient thing. And so I am all out on that. I don't you like that. I don't think female voices should become like A I voice is just yeah yes.

why? My, my, my son has a company that makes a called chat box and makes a smart speaker, the voice interactive as a button on IT to. So it's not listening all the time. IT only listens when you press the button. And he deliberately created uses a robot voice that sounds like a kind of like a child, and you can tell the gender.

And I think that sort of thing you want, you can understand everything IT said this chat box says, but it's not like, oh, this is a boy, this is a girl, this is a man, is a woman uh, it's just a clearly in american, has an american accent. But uh U S is has its own voice and IT has no gender and at all that stuff. So I think IT can be done and um my son Kevin has done IT and and I think that's a way to go.

Yeah yeah I like your idea to about making the A S like kind of intentionally unlikeable or not having a personality .

IT should be unnoticeable you you shouldn't stop and think, wow, I just feel very good about this. I don't know if if you use pie that ai no.

no.

But it's it's a chatbot. You talk to an is extremely personality focus in IT. You asked the question, it'll go this on this long we did answer and then I will ask you a question and IT tries to engage in this conversation and it's always like kissing your butt.

Oh, that's so and smart, you know, funny, like I was always, you know, and that is bug me. Uh, there should be a whole science. There should be whole a uh, major and in universities to design voice interactions that you don't notice any of that stuff. IT doesn't seem like a robot voice IT doesn't seem like a person that IT goes right down the middle and just is clear you understand IT IT answers your question and then shut up when it's done answering a question that's where's the where's the effort to to have that be the goal for these for these agents that will be dominating our .

world yeah think that the effort is going into the almost making them addictive and that's where people are. They want to be making jokes. You're going to be falling in love with them and that's what people want.

Cheese, which is microsoft in and develop by researchers in china, I had I don't know that I think is over seven hundred and something million users. They had IT in the U. S.

For while i'd discontinued out in three countries, but something like a quarter of the users of show ice told IT that said, I love you to the chat art. And this is model left. This is model left.

A teenage girl, the whole thing is just completely creepy. And and I consider that a massive failure. Like they would consider that a success like they were. So uh sort of you know that sort of you guarantee that there are number of people who are substituting choice for an actual human relationship, right, that they're preferring that, uh, this is very that this is very unhealthy and I think that rapped a chap hot that does that to people is a big fail in my book.

I love IT. I feel relief hearing you say this, like if if A, I could progress in away. That's like not addictive, like not harmful to women, does not just make a small of people at huge money of money. great. Do IT you shouldn't .

be relieved because nobody in the industries.

and I know, but that ideas refreshing. yeah.

Now I mean, if we if wishes you made IT, so then certainly, but as you say, then there's a lot, lot of money writing on this and lot of executives who don't particularly want to give up control and or revenue for for philosophical points that could be healthier er for their own users. Um I went particular with the on the A I front is as you say, there is this uh um there is this.

There's a definite prepense in people feeling there in some way involved and I but remember when theory came out, people were taking taking the the Mickey out of IT on T V shows that became a comedy point in the rest of IT. But you know this kind of thing is going to spread because there are people like for want of anything Better to consider those relationships to be valid and and in some way almost attractive. It's a very disturbing part .

of human that's right. And you know there's there's a parallel problem with virtual reality where people who may live in circumstances where they feel powerless and they have or they have an ugly environment or they have no social life, will increasingly turn to virtual reality to have all those things. And they're prefer IT to the real world.

And the same thing is happening and will increasingly happen with social chat pots that people will prefer because they felt comfortable with. You know and and I just think I just think it's I just think it's so bad and all wrong and um and I think that it's up to the industry to to to prevent this from happening because they keep going on the path or going in, uh, they that they're going to upset direction. They're trying to like Emily says, they're trying to addict you.

They're trying to get you committed to this thing. I've seen so many studies, uh, working on some of the pieces i've written a lately, uh here's what they doing. Lot of this uh research in italy of all places, but they found that um they tested a human odd you human interaction with the human od robot versus non humanoid robot and human or robot have eyes, and when you make a eye contact with the eyes of human robot, the similar chemical thing happens in your brain is making eye contact with another person yeah and make eye act with the persons is very loaded.

Uh, act IT can I can signal aggression and certain things that can signal affection. IT can IT can make people bond a little bit. There's all these things that happen.

We also have that with our dogs. Dogs evolved to give us the puppy dog guys because because they that bonds us with the dog, is good for the dog survival, good for the human survival. And so this is something that exists.

And now people are feeling this with robots. Well, to me, this indicates that the industry should be preventing this thing from happening. But instead they're go in the other direction, and they gna put bubba guy eyes on all the robots because they want us to be deluded into having a false sense of what the robot is. And that really bugs me and sting.

I me, I reread mbr ing the the first, at least tests of human old robots. And then they specifically wanted human or robots because of the reasons that you were saying they can drive cars, they can navigate through rubble, they can open doors and that of the thing. Now I can see personally, there's a valid I can see a valid argument for that.

But in terms of the digital design on the way that we're doing this, i'm glad you mentioned dogs because those some interesting research that cats evolved me out, because most cats don't. Most feelings don't me out. And they evolved IT around humans sound like a small child, so that what's up with Kitty? And I said, I got one staring at me right now, but we should have to see how that one turns out.

A I cats gona work. But in the past we have had things like clippy, who were actively revived, I mean, when they actually turned off lippy by default. It's the first time in a microsoft press conference i've seen journalists stand up and applause.

You mean IT was, yeah, I was just this terrible, terrible thing. Now why did that fail? Why would A I work instead?

Microsoft bob failed two years before clippy failed h and in both cases they were a uh characters that you are designed to feel to humanize technology but have the opposite affect their always intruding. They would always say this kind of tone def thing. Um so those are both for microsoft, show eyes for microsoft and he was for microsoft.

So in four big ways, micro tried and failed. Have a human or robot, if you remember, was trained on social media and especially twitter and special racist things. You would expect something trained on twitter.

Woods view. Um you have uh chap outs like replica cookie, rose blender, bot, evy bots, sim, simi, I A I, any world A I bliss and the pride. I mentioned before all examples of chat bots or characters that designed to have personality.

And they all failed in the sense that a huge number of people were. Most of them found them annoying, sort of very bizarre in the case of choice, that found them not annoying enough. And that was problematic.

And my belief is that we tend to think that formal writing a writing a research paper, or writing an essay for college, or writing of a business email is a difficult problem for a chapon. And in fact, IT is not. It's very easy.

These things are rule governed. They are they're based on a sort of A A detachment, uh, social detachment. And because you you know you're doing business, you're doing business, right? Business like a tone of voice. Where's a casual chit chat with a friend, I think is vastly beyond the capability of A I and because tone is everything, the response is is very easy to get IT wrong. And you see this with the pile.

The time is just whenever they tried to to instead a personality that was like it's like a wonderful party tric for five minutes and then eventually it's like, oh, this is just so tedious you know just give just give me the information i'm looking for and so I just think that um first of I don't think that we have the technology to have a convincing back and fourth, casual friendly conversation that's meaningful on the one hand. On the other hand, once we do have the key beauty, I don't think we should use IT because I think that's just again, it's all based on deluding the human and I don't know why. And the other thing is these things lie, right? Any sort of, any sort of chap out with the personalities.

So i'm feeling great today. No, you're not. You'd not feeling anything. You're lying to me everything that says they clam experiences they've never had.

They claim thoughts they've never had or they don't claim IT, but they basically interact as if they've had those thoughts, right? They there is a big uh tech uh industry behind uh emotionally intelligent chat pots that read your emotions and so you feeling sad for the to adjust their tone. Well, they don't feel empathy.

They're faking IT. They're lying to you. And and just like I think we I think the public needs to be more aware of this stuff into reject IT or hardly, I don't want to be lie to buy a machine. I don't want to be deluded by software, uh, I just want something that will give me, that will improve, that will magnify my abilities as somebody is trying to get things done.

But fundamentally, I mean, people know what's going on, right? I mean they know that this is either isn't nature feeling IT you think they don't care?

This is even worse. There are all these um C G I influencers that are on instagram and elsewhere ah they have been around for a few years. They're not necessary, you know, they did originally, uh, the word, the product of A I. They were, you know C G I in self like that. And these these influences have modeling gigs.

There's a famous one spacing on the name for now that poses with celebrities and does all this kind of stuff and you know, IT will be like, oh, here's my new outfit and it's A C G I character and then you see ten thousand comments, oh, looking good. You know, all the stuff. Who would they think they're talk to you?

I think most of those people, no, to C G, I, they know there is no there there. They know they're talking to somebody who wasn't there, and they don't care. They want the interaction and they just don't care. That is not a real person, and I think that's worse than not knowing.

This is IT. I do agree that people are just quite happy as long as they get the service that they want.

Well, likely not a lot of people are using all these services yet. So we're kinda at the beginning of IT. Um I think people will like talking to to services that india them unfortunately.

So um the problem of clippy and and the like of likes of living, what other characters there are you mentioned the lot is they weren't personalized to the person. So maybe there's a small set of people that love clippy and just love when he appeared on the screen. And everyone else was like that.

Most of knowing piece of trash seen get that, get that way. So now with the A I is is personalized. Everyone has their own version of clippy and the widest waist version that speaks to some part of their brain. And that's why the AI is successful. And that something people should probably watch out for that if, if you like, get IT knows too much about you.

please find out what's what's next up on the agenda with twitter and who's going to be supporting IT.

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we had an interesting report. Um I know Emily, you've written about this. A bunch of all the people have as well. Swe has given us many wonderful things and some terrible ones. Aba, a wonderful thing, uh, I care, has somewhat mix as IT proves that just because the counting avian aren't viking anymore, they can still mock up your weekend by missing out a couple of crews now in key.

But volvo, who are usually seen as one of the most you know, Green lefty car companies out there, much beloved here in the ebay in berkeley, they're just announced that they are basically scaling back the electric car plans and they're not onna hit twenty thirty deadline, are then alone in this general motors is also said it's good, it's having problems and various others. So Emily, are we facing a stalling in the electric car side? Is is that going to be is going to take a lot longer than we first thought? Or is this just grown pains for the industry to growing pains?

So a lot of these campaigns are still seeing you over your increases. So like the ford f one fifty lightning, for example, is up one hundred and sixty percent year over year. So all hundred is up.

Kia is up. I just an article that the hunt g has been just growing exponentially month over months was released earlier this year. It's now selling more than the musing mock e, the ironic five and all the big, big ones. Of course, teslas and the league its own.

But if we take out so the ones below tesla, the prologue shows there can be new cars that so do really well, although is interesting because it's kind of what I think it's kind of having to confront that is owned by a chinese owner at this point. So with the new tariff, um it's not really profitable to sell a chinese evs in the U S. For vovo vi.

Not know this been .

happening for years. There parent company is gilly just the chinese company. So that is why they didn't release the volvo ex thirty in the us, which is always be a thirty five thousand dollar E.

V. I have friends who place reservations for IT. IT was supposed be a very exciting a new car.

I have thought I was really cool one that I felt I was actually geared towards me. And I was like, yeah, it's exciting. It's coming.

Then the by administration did their types on chinese cars. So that made IT less profitable. Now the evolve elly exerted is not coming to the us until, who knows, when I just saw in europe two weeks ago.

And now it's elsewhere. So I think with vovo, they're kind of realizing like, oh, shoot, like we're producing all these cars with through this chinese manufacturing. Now what is our business model in the U. S.

interesting. So is this down to the hundred percent tera fooks introduced by the current government? yes. And that apply applies to all chinese own companies. Interesting because that's gna start of a few people back. Um I mean, in terms of how the american market is developing, just I mean, yes, you mentioned tesla is to wait above everything else, although I have seen bump er stickers saying I bought this before I knew I was a madman. Um but I mean G F C tesla sales through actually going down or they just the rest of the other manufacturer are catching up.

Tesla sales in q wine were down year year, which created a basically a panic and um elan must has subsequently you fire the whole super charging team if you remember that he's kind of like pivoted the kind I think he's excited. He's kind of board of making cars. He's like, yes.

decision. The super charging network though had such advantage that earth who they shut that down .

um well is very interesting timing because they had just signed deals with all the other car makers to make them compatible super charges. So theoretically, ally, all the other E S. Were supposed to have access to super charges by the end of this year, early next year and has been very delayed since he acts the super charging team.

So he has pivoted more into his A I stuff. So tesla, I mean, it's still doing well. They were down in q one.

I hat either down slightly neutral or up slightly, like not a lot of change in q two, I forget. But no, they still try to sell cars. I mean, age of tons of sales tactics like they still want you to buy cars are not they're not sad, sad.

Um but evs are still are still selling. There is just slower and we really haven't cracked the affordable E V. And that is the problem.

really.

yes. So that was why I was sad that vovo got the cables because that was thirty five of k, and that would have been a bit Better than the forty five, fifty, fifty five. That's kind of standard. yes. And the issue there is all about the battery.

So we have not been able to make cheap er batteries um again because the chinese control the entire battle supplier like ninety ninety five percent of IT and the minerals they go into the batteries, they have minds all around the world. So when IT comes to if you're afford your G M, you want to make a chea batteries like where they have, how have I going do that? You have to buy from someone who's going to sell to you for a Price.

So that's really the central attention in the industry. And its not me just saying that ford when they announced their shift to hybrids recently, they said in the press late releasing, I could not believe this, they said they can keep up with the chinese. They actually wow.

they actually stated that directly.

Yes, they said it's like unreasonable with chinese competitors. And of course, I didn't say we can .

give with the chinese to be impressed imprest impressive honesty for pressor.

But that right, especially for four, they're like clamped down on their resting. They use the word chinese in and competitors in the same sentence in which also talked about IT being an unreasonable .

to keep up with them go IT OK.

And that is just very relevant to the bob thing.

Yeah different. yeah. I mean, what's the situation? Are you am my I mean, you're seeing a lot more reviews on on the road in europe.

Uh, not not like in california. Um no, we're near that. But you see um you see some you know in this part of europe, the ordinary cars are fairly relatively fuel efficient.

You don't see a lot a ton of huge pickup trucks like you do in california. You don't see a lot of SUV or big cars, a lot of very, very small cars that are fairly few efficient already. Um but I think that um I think that the the the problem is the one problem is a kind of a lack of comment by the U.

S. government. Um it's kind of of two minds. So we've learned in the last like twenty years and by we am in day and the politicians have learned that if you want to get your party reelected, you make sure there's um you know the Prices are generally low and the the best liver on the Price of things is the Price of gasoline.

And so in the way you lower the Price of gasoline as you oversupply IT. And so the U S. In the last you know ten, twenty years has really been ramping up oil and gas production, which is kept uh, people complained about gas Prices, but it's actually compared to almost everywhere else in the world, very low in the united states. And this is the problem. If gasoline was as expensive in the, I says, as IT is in europe, I think they're be a lot more interest in buying electric vehicles.

Something that came up when I moved over heroes talking to the taxi driver, literally on the airport, from the airport to the hotel. Say, I are terrible here. Gas Prices are going up to four dollars fifty a gallon.

You would just like, make IT more about thirty or fourteen dollars a gallon in the U. K. And we quite cheap compared to .

so many europe. What's funny, as the americans are in europe, look at gas Prices like h that's not a bad but all that's a leader that that that was a good Price for gas, but that's the Price for a leader. This is really expensive yeah ah and so you know that part of IT uh so I I sort of blame the government.

They should be if they're going to be over producing oil for political reasons, they should be uh they should be more heavily subsidizing electric vehicles and and you know they already doing IT to a certain extent. California do does IT to a certain extent, we need a lot more of that. I think um I also think that more unsurprising that car companies are not following tesla lead.

The genius of tesla back when elon musquet a genius when he came up with all this stuff, was that electric cars were always this boring, sort of guano ahead, sort of like burn stock wearing kind of a thing that's chunk y and slow. And you know, they were super ugly, zero dynamics. And all stuff for the efficiency is like, hey, we're going to make the fastest car in the world and it's going to be electric and it's going be fun.

It's going to have lucas modes, going to have all these buttons, big screen, and is going to be this crazy thing. And where where is that learning in with all these other car companies? These these electric cars are purely based on like, here's here's the deal, here's that much electricity costs and here's all no, make IT fun and make IT, make IT like really exciting to drive in some way. And I think so, I think theyve failed as the government has failed us. And here we are not not accelerating toward electric vehicles more you .

mention the affordability of the cause, but also of the fuel. Now I guess is is increasing the in issue. I didn't what it's like over on the east coast, but P G, E, apparently now change if you're running a smart meter, you will get charged more fuel power of is being used to change at your car, which seems counterproductive in some ways. But I mean, is IT not just a purchase surprise, but also the running costs that are making the difference here?

I don't think they are running costs. I mean, in a lot of places is still cheaper to have an electric vehicle or comparable unless you charge only at like super charges, which are at A A higher rate for the electricity. Um I think the bite administration had a very admirable goal at making evs new Normal. Um I think they should be commented for that and I have faced an enormous amount of backlash .

i'm thinking is about coming. No, I think, baby, I mean.

I just say but because they kind of walk to back a little bit again after like all the back, ash IT wasn't IT wasn't like peer peer. But I mean, I think they did funded billions, dollars and battery research in charges and just got all the states on board, the state seven centimeters, the federal seven thousand five hundred, lars, and actually got Better over the course of the by administration.

You can now get IT at the dealer and IT just reduces the cost of the idea print. That's very successful policy. Instead of having to wait to file with taxes. There has been a lot of wins. There has been push back from the the car companies themselves and the really the Price of the car and the charging situation are the two issues you get yourself in an E V IT is way I or to drive anyone who likes cars can admit that it's like, yeah good. Well.

so so I I have a plugging hybrid. It's A A plugging in prayer and it's the greatest thing ever. I think I don't worry about charging stations, but if I have the time, I just drive IT down the street from where I stay in in california to a starbucks where there's a free charging station and I sit there in starbucks and in four hours, it's completely topped up for free and that gives me twenty four miles, which it's not very much, but it's like free write.

And but .

but again, I think it's a perfect solution. I know whether you know the Price of gas goes weigh up, I charge IT more off. And if if if I does, if if I never charge IT, I still get like fifty three miles to the gallon, uh, through the gender breaking all the other stuff. And I just think that, that I don't see what I don't understand why there is a lot more pluggin hybrids is such a great solution for this intern period where in where resorted between gas and electric vehicles.

And those are very cool. They're a little expensive.

little expensive but massively reliable and very inexpensive to maintain the cost, nothing to maintain. I my previous A A previous which is which is a hybrid but not a pluggin hybrid. I mean the maintenance costs, we're like, you know sixty five box every two years or something like that never broke down.

no problems, you never lost. We run a previous and the battery died on us about halfway down route five, which is not the place to break down, let me tell you. But just yeah I mean, the hybrid also the other thing with the hybrid is you do lose a lot of boots, trunk spaces said especially the .

plug in has a gg battery like almost no time space. So that's a problem.

But the very nature of the cars that being promoted, I mean, ever you mentioned the food was the f one fifty, enormously popular IT was almost enormously popular of perel engine as well. So I can kind of understand why they went for IT, even though having driven what I wouldn't do IT again.

But I mean, why are they they going for the larger cars first? Why is no american manufacturer seriously trying to do something as cheapest as the chinese is? Just the chinese have the batteries on their order to themselves?

Yes, that's IT. I read a lot about this, and one of the things, two things I want to happen with U. S.

Cara lang, I want all peer gas cars to be gone. I want hybrids to be the new Normal. They're still gas cars.

Everyone relax. They're run on the gas. They're just smarter there, an advanced ment in technology. So we need to to have that blanket too. I think there needs to be more variation in U.

S car culture in terms of smaller cars being concerned legitimate or as we can consider these gigantic cars where you pay so much money and you don't get any more value for just bigger. I don't see why we can just let people who want to buy smaller cars just let them be and just have that be an option and can be very efficient. IT just goes down to when IT comes to evs.

The battery, the cost of the battery does not make IT possible to make a twenty five thousand dol E, V. And that is what honda G M, basically partnering to make that happen to. Do you like a small affordable 12 thousand or E V？ They they scrapped the plans after a couple years because they said it's not affordable.

So it's litter, literally just about the cost of the battery. That is everything is in that and even forward, like the moche, the lightning, I was so cool when they did that. Like for the stage, american company just electrified the f one fifty.

Like, I was so cool. I think I was back in two thousand. Two, yeah, now they're walking back because it's too expensive and they can't deliver on IT for the rest of their customers and different Price points.

And that's why the republicans get all. Now there's now you these have so many problem but is like if they were just cheaper, yeah be so much less certainty. So we're just just stuck on like the Price basically. And of course, charging is an issue too, but I I think Price to be a so think .

that we should just let the chinese cars flood the market. I mean, I think there's a i'm serious .

question that's the right .

question because that would be kind of great for the goals of electrifying the the car market IT would in IT. IT would be the way no one intended for all the electrical stations that would make IT more of a mass product and sort of put a lot of pressure on on domestic uh, car makers to figure all out. I just think that we're so uneven in our are blocking of chinese technology, they make all our iphones.

Uh, no, we mark where flooded with chinese goods all the time of its in our food supply. That's all okay somehow. But this thing that would h dramatically improve our environment, which would save lives and improve health and all others kind of stuff reduce level warming, all that we're not going to know. No, not that well.

you ask the right question. The issue is that I don't know that is necessarily environmentally friendly to prop up china, which is producing insane amount of missions. yes.

So really that's just a separate issue. The other thing that makes us more serious than an iphone one and why it's been recognized by the U. S.

Government as a national security issue is that batteries are the future of energy independence. And so it's an energy independence issue. So if you just let them run away with IT, it's different than them running away with iphone production.

I mean, I can can see that. I can see the logic behind that, but the question is, how then do we regain the battery level playing field in the batteries? Because my understanding is that right now, particular weather comes to rare earth materials.

China is holding these, not allowing much in the way of export. They also own most of the minds to do IT, although there have been talks of restarting ones in the U. S. Is IT going to be able to catch up with the chinese actually beat them with their own game on this one.

But we certainly would have to get to started. There are very large litham deposits in the U. S. That are contracts to be mind. And I think the that our past one might be open noon who's listening and an expert time.

But um yeah we basically if we put half as much energy and to like building social media apps or holograms or whatever into like battery technology, and we had more college programs for Better technology. We had kids interested in that who actually know what IT is and want to build the future of that technology. We could have Better cars.

We could have iphones at last four days and days and days without charging. We could just have Better batteries, you know. But if there's no momentum towards that in the U.

S. Or there's really as politics miring that effort because the by administration allocated billions towards domestic baty production. Gave startups that I have spoken to tons of money to keep going and building either traditional litham iron or new chemistries, which are coming down the pipe.

So really, we seem to fund IT and have the interest and then we can do IT if we have with the we have good minds. We have great national lads. We have, yes, everything.

We don't have the appetite. And that's really the U. S. Just is not not doing what he needs .

we doing to the where the car is. So central IT seem seem remarkable that going falling down on that front. But also, you say for energy security, we are going to need a lot of this technology. I mean, people laugh at test as giga factory, but that does seem to be a wise move from what you're saying.

Yeah, I mean, well, test, let me speak. The factories all over the world, including in china. But yeah, you mean just making batteries?

Well, yes, I mean just making backers and improving the technology.

Well, I mean, I get the same thing. I mean, sure you have .

the same problem in the max full full of revolutionary new breakthrough in so and so lab or so so university, which could being in this for ten, fifteen years and really not seeing any progress is is just that it's too difficult to do on scale or you know ah the funding dries up.

Yes, so I kind of wanted to get in my report. I really want to understand the battery technology situation because of my belief, that is the central problem and solution to this whole thing. So there is actually progress in Better technology.

I will say the the issue with a new assault state battery or sodium ion or lithium sofa or graphing, all these other chemistries is just scaling them in the production um and there are people who are getting much closer to that. And the reason you don't see IT now is because they're building the factory is now like they are they're coming. There's multiple like I think of in my head that are like being constructed and then you will start to get more of the scale.

And that's why I think I released handi in a recent press release. They said they think EV demands going to pick up around twenty thirty. Well, what's happening around twenty thirty? All of these battery promises are still be coming around twenty thirty.

So that's a though I mean, you consider IT IT takes about two, three years to get to chip for up and running intel. A discovering the cost at the moment, you know the having to wait until twenty thirty and sure the environment can wait that long. I'm pretty sure the E, U, isn't.

I mean, it's so sending the e be moving on this. And the U K. Is moving the same way, actually ban internal contest engines from being sold in u cars and the dates are changing from twenty thirty to twenty thirty five, whatever. I mean, do you think those kind of straight off bans, no more feel become being sold a workable under the current situation? And we're going to have to wait for the battery manufacturer to actually get their goods on the market before we can change.

I don't think that is would be workable in present day. I do think there is a place for battery or for gasoline. Again, I think I should be hybrid. Um I don't think where we are today that would service everybody.

If you live in a rural area or if you just want to take a we can trip and you don't want to stop to charge all the time, I mean, it's just certain things where IT becomes in practical. And so you would just either need what we're seeing now, which is incremental improve ince in range. So IT will IT goes from two seventy to two eighty to two ninety to three hundred and then kind of Peters off after that have reluctance that like five hundred. But either you keep doing little things to get more range like rewiring the car, or making a Better, Better management system or having heat pump, or just sees little things that can do the car, or you have to just wait couple years and then there should be something that is next .

level .

OK that were a hoping is around twenty thirty. But I mean.

looking at clock right now, six years yeah fun yeah that I mean, the charging network seem to be there or don't seem to be holding things back from what you saying what .

they are they are is just like if you can even get the car, you can .

point yeah as a british guy I follow on youtube and that he did actually manage to drive coast to coast to a couple of years back in a model legs um but IT meant in some cases staying overnight at R V. campus. And using that you can .

do IT this is not fun. Used to be a party trick to say, oh, I took a road ship. It's like in an E V. That you can do IT but you don't .

really need that level of I was in europe. Are you saying charging stations around where you are?

Yeah I mean, here in there you see charging stations. There's there's A A little restaurant we go to in italy is in the little and nowhere and they have a tesla charging station there. I'm like, okay, that's interesting.

I found scotland, you know like in the highlands of scotland and you live this is spread tic first. incredible.

But here's a question for you, Emily. Um what is the impact of self driving cars, which seem a lot more viable with the success of waiter in in I think three markets right now. I've taken a uh I think once taking a twice uh a way more and cement is go and IT is amazing um how well that works.

So if you think about you know you're talking about one thirty, which is a goal, right? So that in reality, the these batteries coming online is going to be later than that, right? If if the battery industry is like every other industry not reading his goal.

Um so lets look at ten years or eight to ten years, uh, before we have like american battery technology really hitting the market in a way that's going to make a begin. Where will self driving cars be then those will be mostly electric, right? And so how does that impact the the the use of combustion engines in general with the with that album decline, to what extent you think that will happen?

I think right now we o and um cruise or cruise is is off. They got footed out as esco after a bunch of controversies. They're Operating more in city environments, which is where evs really shine.

They actually have a higher fuel economy in cities and on the highway, so was flipped from gas cars. And then there are just Operating in these small environments. Um they're also Operating from the perspective of fleet t provider, so which can plant knows exactly how much mileage like a specific vehicles gonna need and and can call IT back to charge.

So it's like a little bit different than these consumers who are just wanted to like push the mallet's constantly to the end to the range consulate to the edge. From a fleet perspective, if IT tends to be easier for buses or taxes and things. So I think that's good is just the the regulatory approval is not is not there and maybe that will also take into ten years.

yeah. I mean, this is that you mention creese and generally parking on top of pedestrian isn't the best address for your product to the same here in some ford cisco. But I mean, i've tried the way most as well.

And fascinating love to drive, love not having to deal with the taxi driver opinions, which you didn't really want to listen to various reasons. But they are very geographically limited. As you say. This is not something which is gonna be rolled across the country. I think we've only got three or four cities now which are allowing them, and those have been heavily mapped out for years. I mean, IT, it's I can't see them working new york, for example, can you I mean that that would be to at least two, three years down the way before actually had that bus. They have to deal with new york drivers and which are nearly a bad of some from system ones.

I don't know why anyone's new driver new york is like a this very specific version of hell. So maybe maybe that would be good itself driving. Um but if you think about both these topics, also interesting to think of like elon musk tesla in eight to ten years, like what is they are very, very difficult problems. Both of them the electric vehicle situation and the autonomous vehicle situation and their there's a low in both so I mean, twitters not making money. So like what what is he on most?

Onna do well, yeah. I mean, this is IT. As you mention the the so called full self driving is not cell, sometimes even driving you.

Um I do you think that they're basically taking their eye off the ball on that? Or is that just that? There are technological problems which are going to take a lot of time to work through.

I think their eyes on the ball, basically, that's what he did with trying to make fire in supercharger team. I mean, I know why he had to fire them to focus on A I.

but they .

are focusing more on A I now. And I think they will. They said this month of cyber truck is getting full self driving. So see that thing driving itself on the street.

I saw one k and given the size of our streets, everyone was just laughing at IT because it's just like squeeze its way down narrow london street. You are like, that's not a good look really.

I am in a jersey and you would not believe how many evs are here. It's crazy. It's like really utopia. A guy, you go on a high egg, you go to the grocery story. It's like E, V, greatest hits they're looking on or on the parking that's like B M W tesla, tesla, tel tesla, cyberia ack cyber truck. It's crazy interesting.

I just as an advantage in yeah there are some .

good tax incentives. Um there's a lot of rich people, a lot and a lot of matters a house.

yes, a lot of times people yards because this was being the problem in the cities. You can't mobile electricity flex out of your second flow apartment like the problem in china too.

because people a lot of people live in this big apartment buildings and no place to charge electric ars, and so that was a problem. But um I think they're slowly getting the point where they have the charge stations or apartment complexes.

So try throwing the electricity flex out the window and seven and cisco and someone going to think IT before it's even reaches the car. But yes.

he was funny. I was in I was at a wine bar and just a couple months ago and three months ago, and a lot of looking out the window is kind of a rainy day and a way more car went by. Then a cyber truck, and by then a cable car went by.

And like, I am definitely to go. This is the most service go traffic I have ever seen. A friend, mine also took a picture of a red light where there were three way most in a row the red light, yes, very, very cool. They seem to be conspiring.

Yeah I went to um aust taxes and IT was when cruise was still having having fun in being a surface and I couldn't believe how many were driving around the city. Just constantly learning they're learning their cameras are picking up everything. They're just going around just driverless passenger less learning the city. Yeah, I did have a little bit of like the next sentier crisis because I was like they are going around the city. And I am also seeing tons of people who appeared to like the homeless or or on drugs, they were passing out narcan on the streets, which is what you administer .

yeah and somewhat .

hasn't open over those and so I was like this crazy contrast of just like you self driving electric cars and the r can being passed out and I was just like my brain was just I was like, I don't know where we're going and I don't know .

what were the way yeah I know just just see this pia at .

times but he was so crazy yeah.

Yeah well, we to say let's take another word from lia and let .

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Thanks very much, leo, and a hope you are enjoying the tripper way. Now we got a couple of other stories which we can go, which we can go through, one of which comes comes back to what we were saying about U. S. Government investment in infrastructure and how this is going to work。

Um we've had um proposals really this week coming through about toughing up the actual of the root backbone of the instance where the border gateway protocol but we've also had the government willing to invest in chip firms in a big way over the last couple of months. And IT was that I wanted to touch on initially in the intel who was a formed the giant of the cheap business and and an american in pretty much every way possible is looking like it's in serious trouble at the moment. They've tried to read another.

They basically, i've been covering this for a while and they just haven't been investing in their ships. Now they're come into the U. S. Government saying, giving us give us billions in funding kind of ad mirrors with the electric clothing. Now if that's working on, as you say, on batteries, Emily, wondering whether you and might think this can actually welcome processes as well because at the moment, taiwan and china are what time? China, not so much, but taione certainly is if you forgive the on eating our chips on this.

Well, I think you're the expert here, but I will say also the chips act was very significant legislation to increase domestic production. Sounds like it's not working though.

The problem is the long lead time. I think you know it's like IT takes two, three years to get a chip fab up and running and IT cost billions or just a little .

like we should have done this two administrations ago with those batteries and chips. And so that's why it's so important that now that we've had the chips act and the battery funding and all that the we've talked about has actually been passed, very important to keep going because we're already behind.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it's it's a it's a worrying concern. And I think it's we always kind of hope the administration would do these things two or three administrations ago. But if their politically dodgy you know situations and well, in the case of intel, you you had management who prefer to spend on shared by backs and they did not actual investing in technology.

Um and now we have a situation I think he was also covered, which kind of reinforce this a bit in they suddenly works out, hang on, if china doesn't sell l us this stuff, we haven't got the capacity to produce ourselves. It's trying to see if there, I guess, that there is a paralo with you on that front. It's just leg.

China is in A A very strong position in a bunch of industry's. Taiwan is in a very strong position in the chips. Um and now there are some european counterparts coming up um has a possible future logic. Mike, what's you'll take on this?

Well, I mean the the differences that with the eve electric vehicle industry, you have a bunches of companies that would sort of benefits uh equally from uh from all the things that the government can do, including subsidizing purchases and all that kind of stuff. In this case, you have fantastic uh, chip manufacturing companies in in the the states were succeeding wildly in video right um equal comment a uh doing different kinds of chips.

Intel I seems to me that the problem is the leadership of intel, they seem to me to be a somewhat visionless company, have seen that way for many, many years. They were sort of addicted to the crack cocaine of being behind the P. C.

industry. Yeah, know, a few decades ago. And that would just they just wrote that industry .

up and kept .

turning out and exactly. And now we live in a world where where it's like, okay, that's not really this robust uh growing, thriving market anymore. And um as what the two of you I get Price releases and see press uh moves by until over last, like fifteen twenty years, they always make me scratch my head.

They they launched this thing where they are going to do a, they're gona do internet of thing stuff, and then they stop doing that and they're gona launch A P, C divisions. Like why are you doing that? Then they sort of sell that.

And then they they buy something, then they sell out. And this kind of like they seem be foundering generally. Now we're talking about the foundry business, which yeah lost seven billion last year.

already has lost over five and half this this in the first six months of this .

year well and still the year still Young and so and so that they just the foundry business, which used to be the the core of what they did, you know making chips, they seem to be unable to uh, design the process and keep up with the schedule. Uh, we've had quality control issues. They just seem to be in a realm where they just can't handle what they're trying to do and it's a real problem.

But I again, I don't I think what we need is more competition in that in the spaces that intel Operates in rather than cropping up this. Uh, what I assume is a poorly on company. I really am not to say that with a lot of confidence because I really don't know how well it's run, but I just they seem to be nowhere real for the last decade and a half while all these other chip manufacture turing uh, companies are just killed in IT.

And so and then they changed public having marketers and charged that doesn't seem to work particularly well. But in video pulled IT off. I just don't understand why they got so so far behind and so lucky daily clinton of the future planning.

Yeah I mean, part part of IT is just in video, is both a visionary company and they are super lucky. So you you basically the geneva, I think, hit the best thing going for that were graphics chips, right? So they were making graphics chips that that could handle all this paralo processing and were super powerful.

And they were ideal for a training the the models and then be delivering them and and doing the processing in the back in and they just scaled up massively. And now there the the they're pivoting to to specialize in A I but um but they're also an incredibly visionary company and a all the ways in which their visionary are exactly the way that way that in til seems not to be a visionary. Intelligence seems to be on the same track.

They don't seem to be responding well to competition. Of course, you think things like microprobe just building the fab takes a decade or something. It's a crazy long, you know difficult business. But still at some point they are going have to respond and and and and and sort of keep up um with with what their competitions are doing and um again, I where I love to see my tax dollars go is not dropping up this money losing Operation but uh but funding startups and funding um competition in the spaces where a where intel uh repeat yeah I mean we have .

been saying an north little releases about customer I chips, you know which are specifically designed to burn through this as fast and efficiently as possible. I mean, Emily, if you seen any real progress in this are always still at the press release .

level to think I just wanted quickly. So mike, the individual being visionary like alaya square, that with like some what you're talking about earlier with A I and character driven in kind of like we're placing humans with robots thing because I do for my understanding, I had some workers who went to the in video keynote address several months ago.

They walked out feeling completely like there's no no future for humanity because apparently in videos, vision is to just to basically replace humans with the robots to mir, mira, mirror or mimic. Got lost to those two words. Both are intelligence and do all the things that we talked about earlier that we think are evil.

Well, the division is that they they are not only talking about all of the areas of growth in in robotics and A I, but they're actually backing IT up with not only hardware but also amazing software there. Some of the things are doing in software that supports the development of AI using their chips is is the reason you buy their their chips because they they're they're so advanced in terms of the the software.

But the um they have they have great demos and great support for humanity, robot training for the development of IT, for the Operating system for human robots. And they also have even more impressive lining up of support for envision around non humanoid robots. Mean that the the invidia vision is that everything's gonna become robotic, right robotic not robots but robotic.

And that's really the way to go. So for example, uh, in in the areas where amazon is using, uh, forgot to the brand name, but they are using humanoid robots in their factory. And what those robots are doing right now is they are picking up these bins when they they empty out, you know, human workers empty out the bins with parts and whatever IT is they're doing.

And the robots like shuffle over and pick up the bin and they walk IT back and put IT work goes so IT can be filled up again OK. Well, that is, they have two robots doing that, that replaces robotic beans. So before they had that, they had robot that the binds themselves, had wheels and some intelligence would follow line in the factory flow and put itself back way more, way more intelligent.

And that's how, not just how factory should work, but how our homes should work. The idea that were going to have rosie the robot, like with a feather duster going around being our housekeepers is ridiculous. We can have a roomba type thing back thing.

We're going to have a robotic dish washers. We're going to have a robotic this robotic that everything seems me robotic and that's for me. That's the vision i'd like to see.

If you look at agriculture, for example, you're not going to have uh, you know humanoid robot farmers in overalls going through applying in the field. You're going to have robotic tractor. You can have robotic, you can have robots going through all night, uh.

identifying weeds and APP about laser. You it's, I did. You do the same remotely. I mean.

they showed that appeals to me. I hate we.

Yes, yes, yes.

Well, and also we hate besides right right so so it's uh it's a way to use technology not to not to destroy the food, to make IT unhelpful, but to do the opposite to to back off on the on the chemical. So but anyway, so so the vision for them is anything that can be robotic. We're there with a way to train IT, to develop IT, to like a controller to the Operating system, to the everything.

And so yeah there's they they hold for humanity the way they they look at IT is they they're began partnering with humanity part of IT um but they're an accelerant. There's they're very unentered like right you you you whenever you read about entel, you see them speak and all kind of stuff, they're scrambling to keep up yeah within vidia, they're doting the industry to keep up with them. They are like so like far advance with almost everything they're doing that, that is really it's really makes IT clear to me when you contrast those companies and they are in different businesses, to be sure. But if you contrast these two companies, you really want to if you onna, if you, if you gna fund anything as as the government, you want to fund more and videos and just flush money down the intel toilet until they can figure out how to to how to deliver on what they are, what they're attempting to do.

There's a mentally me just going to link a sorry me to say something.

No, I was. I wish more that over. Like you .

just okay, fine, well.

like the intel logo going down, enjoy.

Or is there .

is intelligent?

Yes, I am thinking other american companies who once been a bywords for efficiency and excEllence, and there now, well, that say not to be polite. I mean, we've seen the problems with the boeing star line, or over the last the couple of months, we ve got a couple of astronauts stranded on the I. S.

S. Although boing P. R. Was very keen, say that not actually. Because we didn't say how long the mission was going to be going on for. They're just temporarily delayed.

And now the star line, I returned to earth this weekend and they're going have to hitch a ride on spaces. S now, mike, you do an awful of international travel. What you will take is a boeing. You still .

going yeah there i'm very um I think they're in the ball park. Part of the problem is that we have um a lot of innovation, especially by space ex in the rocket uh industry. And you know I think the um other companies like boeing are essentially trying to keep up with space x in terms of the aggressive schedule of rolling out new platforms and and new new technologies and stuff like that.

And they're really not able to keep up. But this is a lot of pressure on them. I think it's fascinating that a that space eec has been so successful and is the the fall back for for us to to deal with the international space station to bring people in and cargo back and forth.

But but I I think that I would love to see even more redundancy, right? So if um in the big, big believer in the space program for asa to have a robust space program to be to have a ambitious space program and also a big booster intended of private companies doing this stuff as well, I think you know the we as a nation have the money to make sure that like if we're gna be uh throwing up a boeing uh star liner spacecrafts up the up to the space station, that we got a SpaceX one ready to go right there already, right? So and and maybe three of them like this, this thing that we went through where we decommission the space shuttle and they didn't really have A A back up and then had to rely on the russians for a long time.

And then now relying on on A A A private company. Um i'm happy to rely on on private companies, but we should be relying on multiple private companies, right? And this idea that, well, we just can't get a rockit up there for a year or so, this is unacceptable for the united states.

I think that they should do be doing whatever they can or not have the situation that that is a crisis, something in there. The astronauts up in the space station, uh, astronauts routinely stay up there for year or two at a time. And um it's it's not a big deal.

It's just that we should be able to do what we're trying to do yeah rockets, right? And and we have the the capability to do IT and and we have you know several companies that can potentially participate as well as as itself. So I I just I think it's it's an embarrassing uh, failure and it's just a shouldn't have not exist.

No, I ree um it's just it's immensely frustrating for some who grow with amErica leading in this sort of thing. And I mean, yeah private companies still are up to a point. But I just think when the big names go down, then it's it's just a little bit humiliating for everyone of boy but also must not a great look for the U.

S. In general. Um I mean, what is what kind of facing the same problem with tesla or Emily? I mean, yes, sales are dropping off a bit, but I still worry very good.

And as might point IT out, they did make the electric car sexy. But you know I have heard bad things about uh teslas um build policy at the moment. Um certain ly leo had a model x SHE was very keen to give back once the least sticked. Um you mention you're remedial. Do you actually have an electric or you are hybrid?

No, I just have a beat up up old sulu.

Yeah yeah. I mean, it's but the number of the number testers out there in the people that feel very hand very much in love with them and yet it's just that concern that they could go the way the way of boing and just get lost into into expLoring A I and let everything else drop, which is, you know consider environment on a number of levels. These national security, yeah I mean.

hopefully they keep IT going. I think there's enough critical mass of people who have text, les. They will be there will be supported. There's no I I don't feel concerned about that.

okay.

Yeah yeah. On the I think in the space topics what I am thinking about this with like province private first public is the the debate um I will admit I biased. I have a lot of lot for boeing just because I used to live in seattle and I had a lot of brilliant friends who were boying.

I would hear about them going to work. I had a lot of inside and to what I was like to work at playing. I did their factory tour like two or three times when people visited me.

And I was no had those little flutter of like amErica like so cool. And I just I know I had a good feel really good experience with bing. And I when I was working on amazon at the time, I used to be fresh er with my friends like what they would tell me about their projects that sounds so slow.

And I was like you need to like speed up and their like about different business or safety concerns. Ces in that. And it's like I just feel bad because I spent so long thinking about how slow and study boeing was.

And now when they have all these huge crisis, everyones like what they need to go slow or they need to go slow or are they need to be more careful, need to be more careful. And I just like um it's like they're really cop between the two because now they're competing with spaces ex which is like only going fast boy wants to be doing but then if one more thing happens, it's late. Glass house like a one more stone thrown is like like this time I go no bowing. Come on. Like hold on yeah so I mean.

it's journalist of we kind of on both sides of this because on the one hand, you know it's kind of like we have to report the news. But the other hand, you are aware that if he gets I mean, i've had pictures every time a boy aircraft has the tiny st fault. I now get pitches from P.

S. About IT. yeah. And the fact of the matter, it's nothing at all to do is to do with, you know, in most cases it's to do with airline is not know, but not maintaining their aircraft, possibly rather fundamental flaws. But IT is that that perception and perception is is hugely important, particularly when you're being flown either know through the planet, around the planet is all through space yeah.

it's like a downward spiral with bing, pr and IT is just the airplanes and now it's spacecraft and for me, space x is not a substitute for boeing just because of the visions of the companies are so different um i'm kind of shocked that space still pushing like the but the bio planet ary or multi plane ary species thing like that .

you today yeah you .

see in the room like a couple years old like it's very much still there and it's very much still the purpose of .

the company yeah and I do .

not desire that I would like to live on earth with trees and water and natural sunlight. So I just it's cool and very, very impressive what spacing is unable to do, but I am not in love with their vision and I don't .

know why that happen. The other grass, tyson has a wonderful comment on that, the idea of performing mars and having millions of people move to mars and and and for mars to be made habitable by human technology. He says that if we have the technology to make mars habitable, we have the technology to make birth habitable um IT to fix all of the environmental problems that we've caused, that would be far easier and making uh habitable earth.

And so it's kind of ridiculous idea and agree with you, I don't think human beings are human beings and the idea that was separable from our planet I think is isn't a bit of a delusion. But there's other news that happened recently in based on seattle based uh, airspace companies that's really interesting. There's a company called radio airspace yeah basin seattle.

They were found in two thousand and sixteen and they're working on A A product of the x thirty three. It's basically like a space shuttle. But IT is instead of being launched to the rocket, is that rockets on board, but instead of a attaching this plane to a rocket, sending IT all up in space in and have in this plain, like they come and land in a runway, IT actually is just the plane without the rocket.

And IT has a rail system, so it's basically on this high speed rail. And when IT takes off from the rails, going like six hundred miles an hour, five hundred miles an hours like that, very fast. H about as fast as as, you know A A jet, uh, a passenger jet would be going at high altitude is doing that ground level and um they would they are talking about reducing the cost of a uh pound of payload from its current ten thousand dollars pound, what a cost now two thousand dollars pound. Uh so to be vastly more efficient, uh, highly reusable, again, using a lot of the the intelligence from the space settle but but this sort of the next level space shuttle, I love this idea and again, I think that the the solution to some of these problems of these aging giants that were innovation, innovative, maybe they are loosen. And now whatever the solution is, more companies competing and space .

is competing.

Petition novation. So so i'm kind of rooting for for um for red radio and I think they are we need more radiance and and and I think that uh that's the way to go. We need a lot more companies building rockets and things that take us to the space station to to to the moon, to to elsewhere. Uh so I love to see IT and I kind of writing for them this basically news that of what their planning was rolled out, the concept of fairy right now was ruled out, I think like we can to have a go or something yeah I mean.

i'd like to see more electric up, but that doesn't seem to be happening as yet. That doesn't we doesn't seem that you can get the power to wait ratio that makes sense for .

ensure hopes they're going to do next tric plains first that's disclose or yeah yeah yeah we should to send everyone. I don't like to space .

solution ool. We've got to get a heads ddb because apple is doing a major launch tomorrow. And the renters to having having been voices, have you heard anything, Emily or mike? I'm presuming it's going to be more A I more than all the time and maybe a shiny new I thing or two.

Yeah we have one person from P C. My going at least may be one or two. But um yeah I just probably be reporting on the apple intelligent stuff. So so much of what we talked about tonight. This is a really good primer for tomorrow.

excEllent. Emily are expecting the desktop robot, this Green that pivots and faces you and all itself that my sounds .

like I look into that after .

this yeah means mark erman. I think it's been alone in reporting and this is one of things works like you always think apples about to announce something, but then it's like three years later and they announce IT. Uh, so we'll see. But definitely be apple, intel, gent stuff, gonna gonna there, new iphone.

all that stuff. Yes, they even delayed the APP on intelligence thing. I kind of lost the thread because they really go we're updating syria and they're oh, now it's not coming with I S. Eighteen and it's coming next year. So they lost my attention little bit so we'll see if they can get IT back tomorrow.

Well, tim cooks, no, Steve jobs and IT comes to holding people's attention. But maybe if they actually, if they actually produce, we should have to say it's been a marvelous chat. Thank you very much.

So I think we've covered a lot of the important areas. Emily, thank you for your insight. Certain ly on A I electric cars and mike is going to be getting incredibly late over in basler. What time is IT over there?

Two twelve. A M two twelve.

So bad time for dinner then in some dinner time.

exactly. It's it's definitely time to to go have dinner and h and relax for the into the day. Now it's a it's a it's not late by barter on the standards to be sure but um very happy to do this if I can just do a quick plug if anybody wants to join us.

I mentioned a couple times the gastronome tic experience just a i'm dot net. If you want the travel colony wine, experiencing your life, sign up and join us. None of our locations excEllent.

You can get the latest from Emily as well on the A, B and B, I and other markets as well as as as the career developed. And of course, if you feel like popping into the register, then all means you can see some copy there. Uh, there we back for all of the next twice, I believe. But in the next time.

next week will be hosted by the venture.

hard working a longer than expected. Well, always chance to get new host in and and see and see what other people are thinking. But in the meantime, another tweet is in the back.

Do you anna twit? All right. Do you anna twit? maybe.

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