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Welcome to hacker in the pit first carbo former FBI special that works on my entire career and type crib. I'm joined as always by my friend, podcasts co host actor monster ker form of black hat hacker who once faced a hundred and twenty five years in prison for as many years of hacking out of the code name sabo, our stories collided june of two thousand and eleven. And when I arrest detector and then convinced to work with me at the FBI vectors, know a red teamer researcher and cyber security expert vector, this shows back off.

We back, baby, I love IT. It's good.

We got the control of IT where it's us read in the show. We're doing the thing and we are back and we're going to be here every week.

Now I love IT. That makes me happy. I'm excited. I'll be ask you brought, I miss.

you are missing conversations. I miss our pre game show. I miss our doing the show. I missed our banter.

E lans, reaching out to us every fucking day, telling us, what are we going to start the show. I missed all of that. I missed the audience.

I missed the questions. I missed everybody. I am so happy to be back.

but you sound happy. I give you that you sound super excited. We just .

talked for forty minutes before the show. You know, i'm excited about this.

Oh yeah. Well, the one thing the audience doesn't know is that we do like the Price show, we do the show show, and that we do like after show. So we city like two, three hours chopping IT up .

is we're like cuddling on the radio together.

exactly. So let's catch .

the audience up on where we went last. I don't know. Seven, eight, nine, I don't. Hello, we've been gone. We've been gone for months now, but we're back and we dedicated doing the show. The audience has reached out to us over and over and over again when you come in back when coming back, you know then now we are facing back and we're doing every week.

Love IT love IT yeah and ah I am hoping that you know i'm hoping that some of folks have .

been hit us up. Now just leave us a meck. I can't wait to start getting the questions. You know we love complete audience questions shows where we can just and go through and answer question after question as question.

And if IT starts getting big again, maybe we do a live show, maybe we'll get on youtube, who knows? You know, just do live shows where people can hit up with with questions live on the show. I don't know. I'm open to anything.

Yeah, well, anything?

Well, anything that's so excited. Vector.

yeah, so excited.

You are okay. Next from now. Who knows? Who knows? So but we have been doing stuff. I know we've been busy, so catch up on some of the stuff we've been doing. You even do quite if your events with guide point security, they are a great cabinet to work with. I've thirdly enjoyed our events.

We did we started off with an event in boston, a geez stadium, and we were in new york city did an invent dc um where a Turner field in lana, kansas city and then we have an event this week or next week this week sometimes uh in h philadelphy, another one in or lando. Um we are get out there again. Guide point has been great to work with. Um they're really easy people and they're fun events. I love doing them.

Yeah no, it's is fantastic, right? You get to meet a lot of folks that are interested in the cyberspace. Cybersecurity in general need some more executives.

Other people are are folks are just interested. You want to meet locally. So IT always gives us a great opportunity to meet some of these folks and answer their questions. I like canada city, right? I think all the cities were fantastic, all different events. I think kanta y was really dut because one IT was like their first guy point event um and the second was very intimate we could sit down with people when is talk was like a new york city with so many people you remember was a mass crowd. IT is hard to like be able to to network and chocolate with folks because they just coming .

and go and right yeah people is going to answer ask you a question when there is, like you, a couple thousand people in the room and a big stadium like event, again, the city was nice and a few hundred people there was much easier. So you're right, those are nice. Those are nice.

But we also did the american trucker association of nashville. That was a huge audience for that thing. But we had some fun working out there.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, mad. The stories I have to say, first, I got to say natural. I didn't know because I ve been a reign business, but I was like coming and go.

I was hitting on, but we went there at the right time. This was like a party city. Is that how you national? Is that how national usually is? Because I was like surprised by that.

I think it's become that now I think now there's lot of destinations for people going out there for long weekends and batch parties and that sort of thing. But yeah, IT was fun. But we, you and I got to go got to go to dinner with your boy JoNathan.

I got to meet first time great guy listener and his family. His whole family came out as kids. We're great.

They piled in the back of the car where we got to driven around. Um I think the audience would be kind of surprised where we went. We went to the grand old Operate. Can you imagine if people's notice who you are is that only should IT sabot .

at the grand old after the you I at at first I was like I was taken a back by the experience is a lot of people and that that location they have there when we went to, you know, IT IT looks very old squad. I think most been using that that building for quite some time.

The seats kind of look like like, you know, when he was like, a really nice church and you have like little fancy they have the woods seats and then just like this padded and stuff right um I can remind me of that but there was a lot of people there. They were all very nice and IT was just there for the music and to have a nice family entertainment, you know and that felt really good to me. I enjoyed IT, you know, even though I was kind of a good outlier in the audience.

But aside from that, um I thought that was a good this experience effect. I came back to new york and I was to know my family family day I want to his country thing and I got to see some really uh some people with that apply your famous I never heard of him before um but the music I loved you. I like those old guys who forgot their names, but they were fantastic.

Yeah, that the old guys from the toy story movies, they did all those songs in toy story. But but Catherine fee from american, I don't sheep SHE really got the audience on people's lap. And you know what a shopman SHE is? IT was fantastic.

I tell you. And her, I would say her performance was mind blowing because, yes, SHE went to the owner. He went to the crowd. Success when people's laps, whatever the ab's having agree at gRandall time. And again, i've never seen her before.

So I was a shot, I told you he, is that a new artist you like not just been around, you know, but yet so much energy and big shot. Ts are heard of her situation. Do great things again.

yeah. Thank you so much for for introducing me to JoNathan and his family and and big shut out to him for bringing the south there and expose to us sometimes, hector, I go to these events and we go to get to the hotel and, well, maybe go downstairs and eat the bar and and just chatted up for a while. And that's about our whole experience of being in the city.

So IT was really good to get outside the hotel and go to the grand old Opera and experience something new and and get exposed to that. So so I was great, as maybe we will do IT more often in the cities, know this text by philadelphia, maybe i'm gonna get out philadephia. Yes, i'm not needles fans. So.

well, I was going to go in my Lawrence, tailor jersey and I closure.

I forget you just .

unfortunately.

So so why don't we remind the other this little bit of our stories who we are actually so you know, when did you start off first and kind of talk about, you know, your world of how you got into computers and in that sort of path you took as a Young man?

Yeah absolutely. Um I would say that I was one of those kids in the nineties that washed a lot of films and I became such a huge nerd film. I would watch films from like the ifc says when the ifc channel first open that they we're opening IT would post a whole budget of via films for free. I never remember that he was a really good film out of iran called the White balloon, but this was called, and he was about a little girl who you know, there's there's like like a version event every year when you're on an event where they will have to some celebrations.

And part of the process for the kids is they'll get like a little gold fish right um and so he was like, what five since years old, he went to buy gold fish and SHE lost the money and he was a whole big story, though whole big problem would hurt the money and losing IT then SHE trying to get the money back. And along the way, he wants into a soldier. But he was southern, make a south iranian soldier.

He had a really beautiful access. I remember watching the film, I was a subtitle, oh, Grace, I remember hearing her accident heating his access like these actors were two different places. No, I want to just so large that they have, you know, massively differences and accents and the cultures.

And so, okay, i'm watching that. And you know, the film ends, and i'm happy like OK, I could really cool experience. And so fip the channels. I want to like war games, and I want into the Matthew Brown eric, you know, breaking into walter and all the good stuff.

And the talking about that film is that IT introduce introduce to a lot of concepts that adversaries and researchers use now like the reverse show, right? I always get this example, my presentations, where in the beginning of the film with Matthew Brown breaks into wapper you I remember that um and he uses a backdoor account, josh w um you know he becomes familiar with the system. The system has enough logic program into IT.

IT is recognizes him as you know, as a user um IT is recognized him as his maker but a kind of a socia city seems to something whatever IT is. The point is that once the the military closed of access interets access math project was still able to access wapper. why? Because wapper calls him back.

That is your reversal and you're circumvent thing. You know, egress filtering all that stuff when you you are the trusted, you know, White, listen, the holes behind the firewall. So that nature got me curious.

And of course, in one thousand ninety five, at the same time of our connecting my computer and getting one, a hackers comes up at some point. I watch hackers now inspired. I go on I R C.

And meeting folks and their introduce me to the hsm of um by the mentor and all this really call uh uh uh uh tex thousand eases which by the way folks you could find one line of text files that cub as archives really, really great resource. So now i'm on R C, A is the one thousand and ninety. The internet is the wild west.

And so in order for me to kind of understand what hacking is, I kind of need to get into IT. I don't have any access to unix or linux at that moment. I'm still in my older week, drink early windows twenty five version, I learned how to use tell net, and I find some vulnerabilities are with pro C G I and a break into my first machines. And I say lu, because I can't, I can't really identify any more of getting old Chris bear with me, but I can identify more what my first hack was IT was either german, where site, where's site or IT was a japanese university.

One of the two login overtown net I was able to use like a sk um the code the handle passed on on IT I was able to log in and then after that um I started reading up on uh sun west for abilities which the system was and vola I became a system administrated over time I converted that energy into hacked visits and two dogs wanted the first. Act in the corbin to importer eo that was a active this Operation against the U S. And even importer and government.

And then that's IT that you know at some point I retired. I came back in the last two thousand tens and I unfortunately um decided I wanted to be like a like a internet superhero and that participate the things that party shouldn't have and became above with anonymous creative low second. Then here you are. I had to not going to do IT. I met my my wonderful friend here and that's .

that's my daughter yes, so that actually says we met through weird circumstances. I was a local company, got a massage Green computer science, and then I joined the FBI um do a duckling push ups in quantic original, learn how to become an FBI um and so I made my way up to new ork city, started investigating a cybercrime up there, put on a squad, C, Y, two and lone. Behold, there's a the kids are so safe hacking, uh, sabo was out there. I got some information, he maybe in new york, started doing some investigations, started looking around and and we were getting terrorized the time there was a fuck FBI friday, uh every friday that was coming out a low sex so this leader of anonymous, leader of low sec became target number one. The bill was really pushed and forward to try to get this guy um and I came up with a name he ter muscle so I decided to go and knocked at the door we said is this table for a couple hours finally told me who he was um and then we went back to the office that that was about minda you remember .

I had back oh yeah now one times um I remember sitting in the car with you men and I was like, man I want to cigarette even I was yeah of course those and go know you were professional you know .

you the back in the front .

that's a great way I must have been the first .

I back yeah the back was uncomfortable and at that point we were decided to be friends or you know look like friends at the time we were really friends, but but that developed quickly.

What was our first date? So, you know, the fact that, you know, your first date put ankles on you, you know, this is a good day or not.

rubin, all over your body, that which we called risky at the time. Then hk, yeah, that's that's a hot date.

Oh yeah. Little little risking a little hand cups this and that .

goes a long way but we spent the night together to we saw all the way sunrise .

yeah yeah yeah we did spend that that sunrise together and had some amazing um some breakfast. And you know I got to say that that whole experience doesn't think about IT. And I go, wow, I cannot believe that that part of my life I can be is the kind of the movie other sty, because IT was just so, so real.

I thought I was done, by the way. Audience, I thought I was done for real, you know, very the underneath the jail. So a type of done because by the time the Chris knock on my door, I was doing every possible, you know, bad thing to do as as a hacker online, I broke all the rules. You know, for those who've been around, you guys know exactly bo with you first got online, and you first started getting get to a hacking scene. The first things they tell you, don't attack health care, don't attack the government, don't attack enforcement.

Well, the kers are forgues about that.

Well, the hackers not forgot about that. I didn't forget. I never tacked the hospital.

That's one thing I don't have in my turn on the electricity at a hospital and see what happens. Now I can do that, but I did target the government at target laender. Cement, of course, is how a Christian I met, obviously.

Oh yes. So the kind of like the the interesting part of me was kind of navigating to the process. This is this all very new meeting before.

For the most part, I was, I was A A law biting citizen and I didn't break up. I didn't break enough laws s to be considered bad guide at the time. So I was just kind of cruizing to life.

So going to this experience, Chris was very surprised. Chris was a really professional about IT because not, you know, not not all people that work a job with a small force ment of the garbage guy. Uh, not not everybody you know, IT is going to be cool about IT. And so I was lucky to get Chris. Is Chris actually like pretty pro? I prefer the professional over someone that was just trying to be my friend, which I think that that was the best thing to happen here in our relationship because over the time we became friends rather than him fail that and I was able to trust him because of that yeah.

But I mean, the other thing about that is I knew at the time you were social engineer, you know, you'd see right through my bullshit. I'm not good enough to trick you and to think, and you know that I was somebody know, so that was the approach I look. But you know, I was also lucky you were an you, if you an s makes IT really easy just to be mean back to somebody is an nice to you. You know, I did, I didn't know, obviously you were a hundred percent forthcoming, uh, but you weren't know, trying to pull, you know, some should over on mace so IT was no IT was easy to like you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I recited that. And yes, I I think he wasn't one hundred percent worth coming.

I'll be very answer. You IT course. I told this before. Well, I was sitting at the table with you. I was I was thinking of every possible scenario that I could so good in my way out of this. But there really wasn't there was no cash, if you can't, scenario where I given a fake wallet and run on the stairs that but these .

Young kids now that are into all these scams in order if they got van today, what would, what would your voice?

One man, you know, as you know, unit discusses a little while ago, right? I am very passive about the story. I properly feel a little be responsible for, for inspiring.

Some of these are these kids back when I was doing the best of I was doing. I'm not proud of that at all. And so i'm seeing I ve seen these Young folks were talented, who I could see in the security, having a beautiful career, doing great things.

And they're taking that energy. They are applying IT to, you know, socializing and scammed people and or they are buying exploits. Chris, using zero days, you saw what happened a couple days.

We get another fortunate zero day attacking half the internet. I'm exaggerating about sixty thousand holes, but none's, right? And these kids have active money now. They have crypto h, uh, a currency can utilized for that. And the thing that did not realizing is, yes, that's the fast life.

And IT seems fun and this seems exciting to you get the map on the door and not every agent you're going to get this to be a and so some of these guys are by the book and not gone to work with you. Some of these guys are wouldn't to work with you, but you got to give up a little bit. And then some of these guys might even use you right, depending with another, depending on who you're dealing with.

But the reality is this, the moment did you pull off the scam? You know, the moment you you know you get twenty million dollars and saw last month, uh, Chris, the news, you pull out ten twenty million dollars a cypher social deering campaign, you start buying broken bags and go parting and buying lamar ini. And guess what, the F, B, S.

Are really watching that. They're not as stupid as you think they are. They're not the reason why they ve got to the fbs because they were above and beyond their their situation, you know they their capabilities, their logic and reasoning and and dick outside the box up would have made them. And I meet a lot of pages over over the over the years. So these guys have a very brilliant folks.

Two hundred thousand people apply for that job every year.

So what you're dealing with is not a more cup. That's the thing I want to you understand. You're dealing with a professional law forceful officer.

They went for training. They they had to study. They spent years away their family studying and starting the law and becoming as a special agent.

And a lot of resources, we ve got a lot of resources to do with the work with.

and they have a lot of resources. You're not gonna get over on them. And those few that have got over like the D. B.

Coopers in the world, right? They are still hiding to this day if the process alive. My point here for these Young folks cries is, yes, IT seems exciting.

IT seems fun. Yeah, you can get you go your instagram, your famous, you're popular or your most favorite instagram model get her national broken bag. But he's a reality for the arrest of your life. You going to have to be running and you're always be looking over your shoulders. Wonder when you get the knocking the door you don't mean and that's not a life to live.

So I am hopeful that you guys are listening to this and this any one of you they're listening to this that are part of that saying, heed my warning it's not worth if you can make the sale monument or more big an entrepreneur in this industry. Cyber security is so Young, less than twenty years old, Chris, and is already a multibillion dollar industry. There is going to be a multitrillion dollar industry one day. So don't even wish your time with that scams though. I agree.

Have you seen some of the stories that we've missed out on? We took our little high test. I mean, there has been some crazy stuff, two point four terribles stolen from microsoft, and someone this can figure the, you know, get hub getting hacked.

A united health that was huge when they got, they got, you know, there's some some big stuff this go with marine somewhere. You know, when that happened recently, that really kind of got me, you know, surprise. The S.

C, C. Going after cybersecurity companies charging them with misleading their false, misleading disclosures regarding the risks and different intrusion. So they're calling out, you know, some of the bullshit that you know who the .

S C C is sort of a part .

of now empty c. Can you imagine the S C, C is now a member of anti sec.

Isn't that interest? You know.

I think it's great. I think it's good. You the accountability on this stuff and the bullshit they know we ad out some of the bullshit in the cyprus ity industry. You know, I think you can see positive on that one.

Yeah, the cypher ity industrial for those that are just listening for the first time. This is Christian. I this is us being honest, real about. And we've been in a cybersecurity space over twenty years each. So we have a good understanding of where we are at and where had IT.

And for those have been listening for quite some times at the beginning of this park cast, you would know that kind of been the same. You have the same message. Um we both feel very passionate about cyber security or security in general.

We both care about IT uh because IT IT can apply to uh you know want to want to united states. We care about united ted security obviously and our allies of friends of course. But the cyber di industry has been is had a shaky moments throughout the the last twenty plus years, admission you a lot of snake oil now, a lot of marketing.

So now so we have less snake oil now. We have really good products. Don't get me wrong, i've met a lot of great people, a lot of great businesses. Uh, Chris, when you go to guide point at those vendors or really good vendors, really good products, they work.

But where are security copies hurt themselves? They shoot themselves in the foot is by over marketing and the marketing jargon and the marketing, you know, these previous, I mean, nothing to anybody, and they take a concept or set of concepts like zero trust, and just drag IT to the dirt, if I were to matter, zero trust. So one of my kids right now, they are gonna cough.

They're going to, they are going, they going to, they just going to move their eyes around and, you know, and not even acknowledge what i'm saying, because they've spoonfed endlessly zero trust, zero to zero trust. But and this is an advice marketing folks, I I don't at least guys listen to. If you are in marketing and you have a zero trust solution, focus less on the zero trust and more on the concepts.

You know what concepts are. Concepts are great micromegas table and least privilege. Access controls, network segmentation, identity management, governance, on boarding and on board is all concepts of the partisan N. S. Themselves have released documentation explaining with zero trust check IT out is online, is available to you.

So this is what hacker in the feds about we're going to get on. We're going to talk about stories. We're going to talk about our lives. We're going to talk about our experience in cybersecurity. But we're going to know take what's going out in the world, cybersecurity, what's happening in the latest hacks, what's happened with regulatory bodies in the united states. And we're going to break him down for you guys.

We're going to explain you know how IT works, what's happening, you know things we're going to be honest with you, you know we we ve been honest to this point and we're going continue that honesty. Um and we also wanted answer your questions. So no question is too stupid.

No question is too small. No question is too complex for us, you know. So we still have the email address questions at hacker in the fed you can reach at us at any time.

You know, if it's a question you don't want on the show, will I answer the question? You know, will email back. You know, hacker or and I both have email address as a hacker in the fed.

Chris a hacer in the fed. Hacker, hacker in the fed, just send this email and will interact again. We want the questions we wanted for the show because you like we give these speeches.

There's you know you have a question in the audiences adds are some resolves to get that same question. We get a lot of great questions when we're talking to different audiences, and we have even Better questions on the show. So that's who we are.

That's what this shows about. I'm happy to be bad actor. I'm a static. We're going to record again in three days of regular episode going to go through and we're going to come up with a few stories um and we are going to explain them to you guys and you know we want to grow the show. We want to grow the audience um but we really want to help the cyber security community and those guys just wanted to get in those guys starting um and kind of you know help you lead the way. I mean, hector, we had a listener last year who went from being in school trying to study cybersecurity, got excited about IT because of the podcast and now is in the nsa do cyber security stuff.

I'm so happy to do that. No no idea. Many people we've helped.

And if we can help you buying the scenes will help you buy the scenes. If we can help you on the show, we will help you on the show. So hector or i've super .

excited about the show. Me, i'm exit forward to IT and by the way, not not to uh to take away from the the good message you had right now.

But remember last year, we had the back of forth like that restaurant more Operator when I was back of forth r and there was some really good points back to back and forth of that I think was really, really useful for all listeners because part of what that persons messaging was was, hey, i'm kind of in a poor country. I need to make money. This is pretty easy.

I can do IT. I do have concerns though. You know, i'm not a bad person.

I kind of want to live a Normal life after to this. What do we turn him, Chris? Well, unfortunately, you know, it's not too late. You could change up like today, but it'll be surprised you get the knock on door eventually, you know, especially if you travel around the world, you'd be in vienna now.

You do know all the rest where you want, but once you go to spain, on a nice fiction of the canary islands, uh, that's over, right? Uh, what you go to europe to go check out friends and in apple tower would be a problem for you, you know so just keep that in mind. And um but yeah, Chris, you know I have to say i'm glad that we're back on this.

We're back on schedule. I'm looking forward to all the conversation you about to have, and i'm looking forward to questions as well. The questions as he was a one of my favorite ts.

Yeah there was a and we also got the same producer fitness is back with us. You guys remember fenians if you guys are looking for a funny is just started a podcast studio um in new york city if you guys are looking to start your own podcast hacking now come on IT IT will be guests will talk up in us retained him in books some time in the studio you guys can start a great show.

They're um so lots of room in the case to talk about cyber, talk about what whatever your passion is, whatever message you wanted, get out to the people. So hector or I really, really am happy to be back. Um i'm excited for the show. I love seen your face every week now so maybe we'll have to start going on live on some sort of show with record notes. We will see what the audience wants.

So this I am totally with IT. I have a face for radio so hopefully I I don't scared of anybody we go live.

but i'm with IT sounds good friend. I thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your listening with the toys, guys, and we will see you soon.

cheers. Like right? cheers. They get.