Severance
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Well, finally, in the blowout season finale of Severance, we got answers to questions we started asking back when Season 1 aired, 3.

years ago. And somehow, believe it or not, we also got even more layers of weirdness and complexity, which is saying something, because it's not like this series, which stars Adam Scott as an employee at a mysterious corporation, has not been weird from the jump.

But the second season gave us more, so much more. Goats and eggs, woe and malice, frolic, dread, Sandra Bernhardt and Robbie freaking Benson. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we're breaking down the second season of Severance on this episode of Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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Joining me today is NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben. Hey, Danielle. Hey there. Also joining us is Jarrett Hill. He's the co-author of the book Historically Black Phrases. Hey, Jarrett. Hey there. And rounding out the panel is New York Times food reporter and author of the bestselling cookbook Indian-ish, Priya Krishna. Hey, Priya. Hi, Glenn. Hey.

Okay, everyone, look, you know the premise of the Apple TV Plus series. Severance, Adam Scott, John Turturro, and others play employees of a sinister corporation called Lumen. They've undergone a process called severance, which makes it so that when you're at the office, your work life is the only life you know. And when you're at home, your home life is the only life you know.

As the second season began, Lumen was reeling from the events of the season one finale, in which some of our main characters' innies, their work selves, successfully managed to wake up and warn their outies, their home selves, that Lumen was up to something. Mark, played by Adam Scott, also learned that his wife, whom he thought was dead, was alive and kept prisoner somewhere in the bowels of the Lumen building.

There is a lot to unpack here. I have not even mentioned the Ortbow yet, but we'll get to as much as we can. Priya, what'd you think of this season? Has it Verve? Has it Miles?

Well, first off, praise Kier. Given. Given. So let me tell you the kind of severance viewer I am. I am the severance viewer who spends most of the season wondering, am I too stupid for this show? What does any of this mean? Are they going to answer that question? Why are there goats? Who is that again? What are they saying? And

And then I get to the finale and I'm like, oh my God, it all makes sense. This show is awesome. And that's how I felt about season one. And that is how I felt about season two. Season two, just like season one, kind of meandered. It went off into its own, like...

I feel like this is a really unpopular opinion, but I felt like the Patricia Arquette standalone episode, the main takeaway was like Harmony Cobell invented the severance procedure. Could we have done that a little quicker, a little faster, gotten that reveal without all the backstory? The answer is yes, they could have. Yeah.

I think it's an amazing show. I think the visuals, the aesthetics, everything is totally spot on. I feel like it sort of took its windy path to get to the season two finale. But I thought the season two finale was just as good and gripping as the season one finale. In fact, it reminded me of season one of Lost when John Locke is banging on the hatch door and suddenly like the light illuminates and seeing John's

Gemma, who has just like escaped Lumen and thinks that Mark is coming with her, banging on the door. It kind of brought me back to that moment. Yeah. Okay. That's a good take. I love that. What about you, Jarrett? I must say, Priya, I don't have any friends that I talk about this show with regularly. So I feel like I'm the only one having this experience. Same.

And you just explained so beautifully what I've been experiencing throughout watching this show. I always feel like, am I too stupid for this show? Did I look at my phone too long? Did I not know what that thing meant?

And it's an interesting juxtaposition with this show because I also feel like every line is important on this show, right? It's not a show with a bunch of ad libs and kind of like, oh, that was a funny bit that I'm sure that no one saw coming, right? Everything feels very measured on this show. And so it's challenging for me in that way because I'm like, I don't know what we doing. Right?

But I'm in. Right? I'm like, I'm here. And then at the end, it was like, oh, okay. So we stuck the landing, but we were wobbly in the air for me. And like, I spent so much of the season trying to figure out if I was looking at Helly or Helena. And kind of having a crush on who I imagine Milchick really is, but not who we're seeing him as. Yeah.

And thinking that's probably more about Tramiel Tillman and who I make him in my head. Right. But like it was all over the place. And then when they started like performing a musical act in the finale, I was like, oh, we. I'm on board. I know that it had to feel like I really hope this is working. Right. I know at the end of the episode, I was yelling at the team. No, no, no, no, no. But where are they going? Right.

No, hold on. I need another minute and a half. By the end, it brought me to that same tension of the first season. Okay, that's two stuck to landings. Danielle, I suspect you might be the Russian judge taking off some points. What do you think? This season disappointed the hell out of me. Like, the best I can say about it is it brought me and my spouse closer together because every episode we were pausing it every five to ten minutes to yell, what are they doing?

What? Why? Why? I love a show that does a big swing. I love a show that does weird stuff. I love a show with strange lore, but it has to be in service of something. Like, I think about The Leftovers. The Leftovers is a show about grief.

Right. Sure.

Lost had these wonderful moments about what if being on this island is better than the life you came from? Season one of Severance was wonderful when it was plumbing the depths of your work life and your outer life. At the weird school spirit you feel for your weird office and your weird office culture. This season veered into weird for weirdness' sake.

I don't care about this big Icelandic guy with the frolic tattoo on his hand. I don't care. So much of the weirdness felt like Easter eggs for the Reddit crowd. There were flashes of really interesting stuff, though, like Tramiel Tillman Milchik getting at his attitude toward his job, his attitude toward race at his job, his attitude toward...

Being the exploiter and being exploited. Cool. Great. The best scene of the whole season was on this final episode to me. It was Dylan's letter to his innie from his outie about, I like knowing you're there. I want to be more like you. I felt so much and I wished more of the season could be like that. I hope someday she sees in me what she sees in you. In the meantime...

If I'm being really honest, I guess I like knowing you're there. The plot line between him and Merritt Weaver, part of it is because Merritt Weaver is there, she's great. That was my favorite part of the whole season. Yeah, I loved that part. I'm just going to say, I cannot remember a more satisfying season finale. What? This thing hit every box that needed checking plot-wise, which is impossible. I thought it was impossible, but it did it. The added complexity we got in that last episode, exactly, the...

That didn't feel extraneous to me. That felt necessary because it grew out of character. It had literally never occurred to me that, for example, Innie and Audi Mark would distrust and kind of hate each other. Yeah, I love that part. So we got that great Gollum-Smeagol dialogue. That was fun. I think that I disappear along with every Innie down there.

What do you want from me? We are in this together. Can't you just trust me? And it feels like I got the sense that we have been building to that, and I didn't realize we were building to that. But it still seemed great to me. And that is the sweet spot when it comes to finales. Like, surprising, but inevitable. Surprising in the moment, inevitable once you take a step back. The only reason I feel this way, I'm certain, is because I binged both seasons over a couple of days. Had I been watching this week to week,

And especially if I was paying attention to the Reddit crowd you mentioned, Danielle, like to the online theories, I'm sure I would feel exactly like you did, like a lot of reaction I'm seeing online, which is too slow, too meandering. What the hell are we doing in Saltzneck? Folks, take a Saturday. Watch it all at once. That is what this show is built for. You start to see the references, the callbacks, the parallels. It becomes a much richer experience. Let's be annoying and say it becomes a richer text.

I feel like, Danielle, what you're saying, I will push back in that I thought that the nuances of looking at your innie self versus your outie self and that being a big focus of the season, I thought that was so interesting. Like, innie Dylan versus outie Dylan I thought was so interesting. Oh, I agree. The Gollum-Smeagol stuff between innie Mark and outie Mark was so interesting. I feel like, for me, the reason I liked this season is because the crux of it was really looking at, like,

oh, these actually are two different people and what right do either person have to exist? I loved the really creepy dinner conversation between Bert's Audi, Irving's Audi, and Bert's Audi's husband. You know, the like, innies deserve love too or something like that. I believe that innies deserve

deserve to experience love. I mean it, and I hope it was beautiful. I thought that conversation was just so interesting, and it felt like, to me, the parts I didn't like is when it kind of veered away from that into, like, mythology building around Kyr and Lumen territory. Yeah, but that, me, I'm just watching for the Egan lore stuff, the cult stuff. I eat that up with a big old spoon. For me, the romance stuff...

Like every character, every character, both Indies and outies, I think, gets some kind of a romance, even the very troubling Helena Kelly identity theft essay storyline. That's not what I'm watching for. It's like it's part of it, though, right? Because it's like the jelly in a peanut butter jelly sandwich. I would I'll eat this. I would much rather you just gave me a plain peanut butter sandwich. But the but the jelly, you know, it's there. I'm not going to hate it. It's just there was such a like.

speed shift with the finale versus the rest of the season that I wonder if that was intentional but like it's like the season finale it was like every single moment I was like yes yes oh answer answer answer another answer like by the time we got to like Milchik like ramming up against the bathroom door at the marching band playing I was like oh my god like

I agree with you all. I thought the season finale was better than the rest of the season. I'm with you on that. I wish the rest of the season had been at that pace. Like the Mark, I love the Smeagol description. The Mark Smeagol conversation. Like I thought it went on a little long. You're like, let's pick this up a little bit. I get it. But like, yeah, that was lovely. Again, that is one of those things where there was an interesting idea and this could have been fleshed out

starting earlier. Like this, once we got there, I was like, okay, yeah, I could see this. Where is this going? But during the finale, I was like, so we're just tacking on all the stuff, this finale. And there was so much, there was so much that just felt so unexplained. For example, like why did Mark's sister trust Ms. Cobell so much? Why did she even want to give her a call? That, I still don't get it. And if you can explain it to me, please do. Yeah.

Why did no one ask Brienne of Tarth what her name is? What was up with the goats? Brienne of Tarth. Mark, you're standing right there. Ask about the goats. Yeah, that's Gwendolyn Christie. She plays the goat herder who works for Mammalians Nurturable. There were so many moments this season where people didn't act like people. I will add, by the way, that dinner with Irving and Christopher Walken, my husband and I, we have particular feelings on this, but we turned to each other and we said, you

Have the writers met a Christian before? I can't go to heaven because I've done such terrible things. And we were like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's not the way it works. Come on. We were wondering, oh, is something coming that's going to explain that? No, no, just bad writing. And there were so many moments where the show just snagged for me, where I was like...

no one is acting normally. No one's acting like a real person and not in a fun stylized way, just like y'all aren't being human. I don't get it. I might be messing up my own point here, but Danielle, did you watch Week to Week? Yes. So Glenn, I think your point about watching the show all together in succession, if you will, I think there is something about watching this kind of show almost, you know, in a bubble.

Because I do remember watching the first season in COVID, actually, and we're in a weird kind of time in the world and you can binge it and watch all of that at one time. This thing about watching it week to week, I think is a big part of what was difficult for me because we really meander out in these episodes to find out, oh, she invented the severance technique, right? Got it. Okay. Okay.

wow, we took a long road to get there. You know what I mean? We literally took a long road and we watched her drive it. Yeah. It kind of makes me think about The Bear in the way that The Bear, every season has felt different. And this season to me, it felt like, oh, we're taking some big swings in different directions to go really go deeply on a story. And I felt like we spent a lot of time out of the office,

And that was challenging because I'm like, the Switch thing is really interesting, but we're in a whole other kind of thing here. Even watching it in one big gulp. Yeah, we get that episode with Patricia Arquette, Harmony Cobell. We find out she's the creator of Severance Technology. That was one too many threads tied up. I like the fact that that's what was happening this season. A lot of stuff got integrated that I didn't think was going to be integrated, like a lot of stylistic embellishments and grace notes. Exactly. I didn't even say it. But like...

I thought we'd never get an explanation for the goats. I thought it was there just for weirdness's sake because it's a puzzle box show. Puzzle box shows kind of do that. And yet when they tied up the Patricia Arquette thing, the only thing it did was it made the world of the show so much smaller. But then again...

What this show is going for is a sense of claustrophobia, of limited choices. To me, this season was just trying to do too much. Had you cut down the number of arcs a bit, I think it would have done better. But bringing in the topic of race and then getting rid of it, bringing in Mr. Drummond, then...

really getting rid of him. Just bringing in... Dispatching him. Yes, bringing in the goats and then just kind of, we're going to have them in for two episodes. Suddenly having a marching band. I don't know. Oh, you cannot diss the marching band. No, no, look, look, look, look.

It was cool, but honestly, I was looking at it going, congratulations on having a lot of money. Like, I'm so sorry that I am such a hater, but I was watching it going, so much effort put into this. When effort could have been put into other episodes, man. Like this, I don't care. Just give me a better story. I think that part of what makes Severance, Severance interesting

Is this weird, quirky? What the hell are we doing? Why is this happening? Who are these people? I think the disorienting nature of severance is part of why it works. Right?

Right. We as viewers have kind of gone through our own procedures to say, well, we're going to allow a certain level of wild and crazy. Right. Because of this world that they've created. Right. Where it's timeless. I can't tell if it's very modern or in the 80s, like with different things. I don't know what's up with the clothes and the I love Patricia Arquette's wig.

I think she's really cool and interesting, but, like, she's also very weird. You know, we're allowing some things to just happen in this world. And, like, me being disoriented and not sure what to think or feel about stuff is a big part of the point as you kind of watch how they tease things out. I totally get what you're saying. And I think...

In the first season and parts of this season, what I got from the weirdness was it was standing in for something. It was almost, it was kind of allegorical. Yeah. This season, it felt more just like how weird can the show get? Like her dad sitting there while she eats an egg, this outie hellie, and her dad saying, I wish you would eat them raw. Like, I don't know.

What are you doing? I don't care. Now, see, I'm going to have to agree with you because I was like, no, what are we doing? Yes. Yes. Thank you. This season did deliver me one of my very favorite lines in the history of television. Why are you a child?

Because of when I was born. I thought that was hysterical in the way that this show gives us comedy every now and then. Yeah, that was good. Like, comic comedic moments. I loved that moment. Shout out to Miss Wong. Yes, exactly. We hadn't spoken about her. Gone too soon. Shout out to Sarah Bach as Miss Wong. She'll be back. I feel like the show...

pushes so many boundaries and is trying so many things. And I feel like ultimately, for me, more of the experiments work than don't work. But yeah, we have to acknowledge the show that's doing so much and just like kind of given permission to just like see what sticks. Some of it is really interesting and compelling and the weirdness works and some of it just is not.

Also, Glenn, for what it's worth, I still don't understand the goats. I'm still very confused. They're an offering that a different goat is buried with each person they kill. And apparently this company has a body count and they've killed lots and lots of people. For me, the finale works because it reminded me so much of an old show from the 60s called The Prisoner. The Prisoner was always working on two levels, the literal level and a kind of metaphorical level. And then for its finale, it kind of turned up the volume and it's

The reality stretched to kind of be able to take on some of that metaphorical weight. Didn't work, but it was interesting to see. And I was feeling some of that happening here. And that's why I'm so grateful for someone we haven't mentioned yet, which is Mark's sister, Devin, played by Jen Tulloch. Great character. She has written well. She's played well. This show is so weird that what she's bringing can be very easily overlooked. She is grounded. She is real. She's funny. She's warm. Without her, I think this show could devolve into kind of an exercise in style.

And also not for nothing, a complete bummer because the view of humanity that at least the villains in the show have is we're made up of woe, malice, dread and frolic. That is not a cheery view. That's three quarters negative emotions, one positive one. But I mean, look around, right? I was kind of like, this is so negative.

And of course, it's the villain espousing it, so we're not supposed to buy it. But I mean, show me the lie, right? But I mean, I think there is like a self-awareness of the show, too. Like, you know, the meeting between Cobell and Mark's Audi where she's just like, how are you doing? And he's like, Oh, my God, so good.

My wife's being held prisoner at Lumen and I just got brain surgery in my basement. How have you been? Yeah, so good. Like that so good was like, that's like how I feel most days. So good said exactly like that. And those moments I just love because they remind me like, oh, the show is totally aware of what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a solid point. If you want to hear more about severance, check out the NPR Science Podcast Shortwave. They recently talked to the show's science consultant about how realistic severing really is. We'll have a link in our episode notes. Priya Krishna, Jared Hill, Danielle Kurtzleben, thank you so much for being here. Always happy to do it. Thank you. Devour feculence. Devour feculence. You had that locked and loaded, didn't you? You had that locked and loaded.

And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free, so please go find out more at plus.npr.org slash happy hour. We'll also have a link for that in our episode notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Mike Katzeff. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all tomorrow.

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