Sinners And What's Making Us Happy
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The very scary movie Sinners finds Michael B. Jordan playing twin brothers who open a 1930s juke joint, and opening night does not go as planned. The film is written and directed by Ryan Coogler, making his first movie since the Black Panther franchise. Coogler mixes blues music with classic horror in a standoff between the brothers and their friends on the inside and the bloodthirsty and growing menace outside.

I'm Aisha Harris. And I'm Linda Holmes. And today we're talking about Sinners. This movie is so fun on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

Joining me today is NPR producer Mark Rivers. Hello, Mark. Hello, fellow sinners. Thanks for having me. Hello. Also with us is Ronald Young Jr. He's the host of the film and television review podcast Leaving the Theater. Hello, Ronald. Hello, Linda. Glad to be here. So in Sinners, Michael B. Jordan plays twin brothers Smoke and Stack who return to their Mississippi hometown in 1932 with some money they made in Chicago. Thank you.

Through, we are led to believe, multiple robberies. But now their dream is to open a juke joint, and once they've secured a location, they enlist their friends to get ready for opening night. Both brothers also have unfinished business with women, Stack with a girlfriend named Mary, played by Hailee Steinfeld, and Smoke with a healer and hoodoo conjurer named Annie, with whom he shares a complex past of love and grief. She's played by Wonmi Masaku.

Opening night starts off well, but then a trio of white strangers led by a creepy Irish musician named Remick arrives. At first, they just seem to be interlopers, but they turn out to be vampires. Actual, literal vampires. What follows is an all-night battle between those inside the juke and the creatures outside who want to transform them into monsters, too.

Sinners is in theaters now. Ronald, I'm going to start with you. We were at this movie together, and I know that we had a lot of fun sharing space at this movie. Tell me what you thought. I have never been more excited about it. Well, okay, never been. This is the most excited I've been about a movie in a very long time. We walked out of the theater, Linda, and you looked over and said, yeah, you know, Ryan Coogler, he wrote it, he directed it, and he made it. And I was like,

Yes, not IP, an original movie made from a person who imagined a movie and then put it on the screen. And it was fantastic. I don't even think I could be objectively critical of this movie. I have zero notes.

I'm ready. Like, whatever y'all have to say, I'm going to say yes and. Let's go. Yeah. And I think this is exactly why I had that conversation with Ronald on the way out, is that this is kind of the model that you hope will happen when somebody like Ryan Coogler gets a chance to direct, say, Black Panther, is that it will not result in them going off and making nothing but that

Yes. Although I suspect they will franchise this, but that's just me. That's me wondering. Yeah.

They may very well, but we shall see. Aisha, what did you think? Well, as we record this, we are less than 12 hours from when I finished this film. Like at this exactly 12 hours ago, I was still sitting in my IMAX theater looking up at the screen and being just completely entranced and sometimes confused, sometimes amused, other times completely just like,

ooh, that's very sexy. What's happening here? People were talking about Nosferatu. I mean, this is not to compare them because they are very different, but this movie is sexy. This is sexy. Sexy vampires. I really, really, really loved this experience. And I think that it's been so fascinating to see

Michael B. Jordan and Ryan Coogler become this team that they both make each other so much better. And I think this is by far their best collaboration so far. Yeah.

And, you know, it's interesting because, like, Michael B. Jordan's an actor. He's done a little bit of directing, but, like, he's an actor, so he's talked about how he spends a lot of his time just, like, he does more projects than Ryan Coogler does because as a filmmaker, as a director, you are, at least Ryan Coogler, his work usually takes years as opposed to, like, here and there. It's just been such a joy to see how they've created these characters from Fruitvale Station to now that all have somewhat of a through line of, like,

underdog, not perfect, imperfect, with flaws, but you can sympathize and empathize with them. And here, taking it and putting it into a completely different genre, a completely different realm, and again, completely new, different, I

I loved it. I have a few qualms, but we can talk about those later. I reject your qualms, Aisha. I reject them wholeheartedly. I'm ready to fight. We'll get to qualms. We'll get to qualms. I don't need to deviate too much from the chorus so far here. This is certainly the most fun I've had at a movie this year. Now, having said that, the bar for that, I think, is below the ground. Yes, of course. That should not take away from Kugler's achievement here. You can just feel the...

The charge and just the excitement that Coogler feels to finally have his own playground to play around in. You know, as you guys have said, he spent much of his career kind of playing in others' playgrounds in the Rocky universe and the MC universe. Now we should say also, I think Creed, there's more filmmaking in the opening minutes of Creed than in all of Rocky combined.

And Black Panther is certainly the most artistically satisfying and thematically complex MCU movie that we've had. But he hasn't had a chance to really show us him in a way. Well, and Fruitvale Station's a true story. Fruitvale Station's a true story based on Oscar Grant's life. So this is the first thing that's coming completely from Coogler. And he's putting so much into this movie. You get a lot of movies.

with sinners. I mean, it's a musical drama. It's a kind of southern gangster thriller. And then, of course, it's a vampire movie. It's a real big meal. I'm not sure about all the ingredients. I think with this energy that he's bringing to the movie, there's a little bit of anxiousness that it's now his whole playground. You know, I think...

I think in the movie, there are certain things that kind of signal kind of anxiety about whether the audience is going to be paying attention, the way the movie kind of starts with this immediate energy and drama to kind of make sure the audience is grabbed. There are a couple editing choices that make me think certain scenes were found in the post-production and not necessarily choreographed. So I feel both an energy and an anxiety about wanting to get all my ideas out, wanting to get all I know and appreciate about genre into this movie. And sometimes it might weigh it down, but it's such a good time. And like you said, Aisha,

I think Coogler and Michael B. Jordan, they bring out the best in each other. And you see that here. Yeah. This movie to me just feels big. The sound is big. The use of music is big. The sound design is great, by the way. There are a few really interesting uses of sound design that I think 100% help the movie go forward. The use of music is really massive.

Yeah.

It has a payoff for just the scope of it based on my experience of it. What I really loved about it is that it has such a fascinating balance between it is so much fun as a scary movie. It is fun, fun, fun. But it is also, you know, really telling a story about this community that is sort of shut in this dark,

juke together trying to survive. And like, it's not a subtle metaphor that Black music attracts white vampires. And I love how much it is about that and it is about this community defending itself against the presence of these creatures that want to take over. I don't think it turns into like mostly that. I think it remains...

Audience participation is high. Yeah.

We had a big, fairly raucous audience in the best way. It is one of those movies where people are constantly going like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't go outside. Go back inside. You got the body outside. Go back inside now. And that's a really fun communal experience. So that was something I enjoyed as well. And I would say even before it becomes this, you know, from dusk till dawn-esque vampire movie, it's a really fascinating experience.

of just Jim Crow America in the South. And the time and place of this movie is so specific and so textured. Before the vampires even get here, you know, it could have been a Walter Mosley story with like Easy Rollins and Mouse going back down South and getting into some shenanigans. And this might be a hot take, but I almost wish the vampires didn't show up. I'd watch that movie. The communal stuff and the interplay between the characters and the lore it's building and the history it's building with the characters is...

is so interesting and so unlike what we normally get on screen. I could have just been stuck in that. I don't even think I needed the vampires, honestly. They spoil the party in more ways than one, even before they start biting people. I'd watch that movie because I'm sitting there watching. I'm like, wow, they did enough here that I'm very interested in the prequel to this movie or some sort of one shot where the twins escape Chicago. For me, the heart of this movie is

There is a scene that involves music that I will not get a spoil for anyone. Oh my God. Yes. Yes. And they do this thing where they start playing a blue song and it starts breaking out into other things more and more gradually. And I think visually and sonically at that point to your point, Mark,

I didn't care about anything else that was happening plot-wise in this movie. I just wanted to live there. They could have done that for three hours and just kept breaking out different forms of things, and I would have been perfectly fine with that. They apparently recorded the music in that scene live, and then they fixed it in post a little bit. But they were performing this live, and there's just so much to chew on that I know I'm going to need to go back.

And the music was a big part of it. This idea, as Linda said, of like you build this safe haven, this place where people are supposed to be able to like get away from all their problems. And then like the white problems don't just become white problems, they become other problems. They inevitably show up at their doorstep. That is a big part of it, too. There's an interesting thread between the Remick character played by Jack O'Connell, who is like the lead vampire.

And the fact that he's Irish, there are several jigs. Like, there's a weird kind of, like, push and pull between both Black American history and culture and music. These, like, twin oppressed classes. Yes, yes, yes. But, of course, like, yes, they're both oppressed, but then the oppression manifests in different ways. Totally. But then on top of all of that, you also have, like, just these really, really interesting relationships between Blacks.

the women and the men and this past and this idea of Mary, the Haley Steinfeld character, being a woman who can pass for white and is passing for white in certain spaces, but doesn't necessarily want to be doing that. So there's all these different layers going on that it's hard to wrap my head around completely. But the big swing for me, when you have all that and then you add vampires to it,

Honestly, I think it makes it more interesting. And I say this as someone who's not a big supernatural person. I did not like Lovecraft Country, the HBO show, which I feel in a way... This movie kind of evokes that a little bit. It does evoke it. But also, yes, Wanmi Musaku, she was in that show. So that automatically brought things up for me. But what I think is really interesting to think about here is just the way that...

is using all of these different parts of the gumbo to like in service of something. I want to go back for more. Like I want to see this again because there's only so much I could say and fully process. You know, there's one other thing I want to point out about the music is that the scene that we're talking about, the big beautiful one that, you know,

There's such a juxtaposition to a music scene that happens later that involves the vampires and Black folks, as opposed to when Black folks are in the juke joint. And the differences in even how they're dancing and how they're moving, which means their relationship to the music has changed. I was thinking about that at probably 11 p.m. last night, where I was like, whoa! To think

that Ryan Coogler is thinking about that while making this film is interesting to me in terms of Black filmmaking for the future to say that the types of conversations we're having now are so much more nuanced than before. Yeah.

I don't know. I could feast off this movie for weeks, man. I also think it's one of the most resonant movies about music and creativity in general that I have seen in a really long time. Because, and I think it's okay to talk about this because it sort of opens with this, is this voiceover that explains...

This idea that there are some people whose musical talent, they create music so powerful that it kind of invites spirits. It's like a conduit. And it's like a conduit and that that can be really wonderful and magical or it can invite evil. And I think the idea that highly creatively talented people perhaps have a vulnerability, even as artists,

their creations are, you know, really, really magnetic is a very interesting idea to me. And I think this film centers music and creativity in a way that I thought was very evocative. I also just want to say, we haven't talked about this yet, but the way that Michael B. Jordan is shot as these two brothers, I really,

really, really admire how seamless it is. At the very beginning of the movie, the first time you see these two guys, they're basically leaning against a car and

You see them, both Michael B. Jordans, handing a cigarette back and forth. And what I said to Ronald is, I think that's the moment where Kugler wants you to see that happen, sort of absorb it, have your moment where you go, I don't know how in the heck they're doing that, and then never think about it again. And I thought it was a very effective way to do that because when I saw that, I was like, that's really convincing. That's, huh. Right.

Can we also talk about Sammy, a.k.a. Preacher Boy, who's played by Miles Caton? So Sammy is their younger cousin, and he is the son of a pastor. And Miles Caton, he is just so good in this role. He was apparently a child prodigy. He's around 19 or 20 years old. This is his first child.

film acting performance, and he is just so magnetic and perfect in this role. His voice, oh my goodness, it's like molasses. He's so young, but he sounds like he's 80 years old, and it's just like, he just does such a good job for this being his first real role in a film. I totally bought him and his struggle as the son of a

pastor of the music. Like, it's like a very old trope and it's a very common trope. It's like, oh, like, you know, how you, the devil's music and blah, blah, blah. But like, I think the movie services it so well and he brings out that struggle so well. And I just love that.

I loved everything about him. He was just fun to discover. He has one of those voices, and when he's singing, it sounds like he's conjuring the spirits, or he's conjuring the past with his voice. You get a sense through his character how much research, history that Coog was riffing on, because I definitely thought about Howlin' Wolf with this guy, and Howlin' Wolf, famous Delta Blue singer, this singer who, coming down from the South up into the Northeast,

And also, Smokestack Lightning is one of Helen Wolfe's notable songs, Smokestack. So there's just so much that Coogler's riffing on with Sammy's character. I think without him, the movie doesn't really work. He's kind of the linchpin of the movie. He's kind of the linchpin of all that...

all that Coogler's trying to say about music and about this history that he's tapping into. And I hope we see him in more things because he brings a lot to this. If we're going to talk about Sammy, we also got to talk about Slim in Delroy Lindo. Delroy Lindo. Always happy to see him. I saw him in The Five Bloods. I felt like he got snubbed for an Oscar. Let's not talk about that, please.

It still hurts. I really hope that he somehow loops back on this one. Put him in it. Because I really enjoyed him. It was a great character performance. And actually, while I sit there, I realized the one thing that I appreciated about Delroy Lindo is he is a man that can lead a movie, but he's also very comfortable being in supporting roles and adding his gravitas as seasoning to a film, which is something that I wish I could get more of. And I know I'm going to get pushback on this.

from someone like Denzel Washington, where I'm like, you know, it'd be nice to see you show up in a movie and be Denzel and then disappear without the whole movie having to be a Denzel movie now. And I feel like Dale Warlindo does a very good job with that, and I really enjoy him in this. Yeah, he takes what's kind of a stock kind of character, you know, the kind of drunken, kind of rabble-rouser kind of guy role,

But he fills him with such particularities, you know, and eccentricities, to where he can just take this kind of stock role that doesn't get a lot of screen time and just fill it up with a sense of history, you know, fill it up with a sense of a life actually lived. And I think that's such a value to a movie like this that is kind of juggling so many things at once. You need actors who can just make everything

immediate quick impressions. Yeah. And I think he's also part of one of the other things I appreciated about this so much, which is sometimes this movie is really funny, which is true of most good horror films. There are moments in this where the fear that people feel or the realization of their situation has a note of humor, and he is often part of that. And I was very grateful for that.

Also, we haven't talked very much about the character of Annie played by Wanmi Masaku, a character that could be a stock character because she's kind of a healer and a conjurer. And I think her relationship with smoke is established very economically, but it becomes very…

weighty over the course of the film and you come to understand what their relationship is and that they love each other and have this bond. There is so much here that we cannot possibly get to, but I think the package here is not only well worth seeing, but well worth seeing in a theater with a big crowd on an IMAX screen if you have access to one. And I just hope that other people enjoy it as much as I did because it's

I had a great time despite not really always being a vampire person. So yeah, but we want to know what you think about sinners. Find us at facebook.com slash PCHH and on letterboxd at letterboxd.com slash NPR pop culture. We'll have a link in our episode description up next. What's making us happy this week?

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Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week, what's making us happy this week. Mark Rivers, what is making you happy this week? So I've been trying to kind of go back to see a number of acclaimed movies from the 2020s that I may have missed. The movie that I saw recently that really kind of blew me away from 2022 was the documentary All That Breeds from this director, Shanaxin. It follows these two brothers in Delhi, India, who are...

who've devoted their lives to saving these birds called black kites. These birds that are literally falling out of the sky because of the toxicity in the air, you know, the pollution that's in the air. And these two brothers are trying to save these birds that are not really well-liked. They're kind of ugly, and some people in the community don't like them. These birds are ultimately integral to the ecosystem in India. And the movie becomes this kind of cinematic poem about just the interconnectivity of life.

And then it also, the scope expands to kind of encompass the rise in Muslim persecution under India's Hindu nationalist government. And, you know, it gets into the tensions that the brothers' job causes amongst their family. And it does all this without poking you, prodding you into thinking a certain way. Mm-hmm.

So again, that's All That Breeze. It's streaming now on Max. I highly recommend it. Only 90 minutes also. So it's a quick watch. I enjoyed that film too. Thank you very much, Mark. Ronald Young Jr., what is making you happy this week? Okay. So the short answer is what is making me happy is the return of the rehearsal, which should be coming out on the 20th.

But I'm very excited about it. Obviously, I've talked about Nathan For You and being a big Nathan Fielder fan on this show before. Nathan For You rehearsal season one. Really enjoy all of his especially really deep thinking kind of fourth wall breaking work. But that really is to say that right now, television feels like it's back down.

baby. All of a sudden in the past, like I want to say eight to 12 weeks, we've had white Lotus. We've had the pit. We've had all of this television. And I feel like that really is genuinely making me happy because I can only watch the office. So many times before I need some new television. So I'm looking forward to rehearsal and just generally happy about all of the television we get to watch right now.

Thank you, Ronald. So that is The Rehearsal. It is on HBO, so you can find it streaming on Max. Aisha Harris, what is making you happy this week, my friend? Well, like most people, I spend far too much time on the internet doom scrolling. But every once in a while, I'm able to land on something that just makes me genuinely happy and makes me smile. And that is currently Charlene Kaye.

She is a stand-up comedian, singer, musician who I follow on Instagram at Charlene K. And she has this recurring bit that she does in both her live shows and on Instagram called Every Blank Song, which is like...

every k-pop song every taylor swift song every chapel roan song and she does these out of pure love but she taps into what makes each of these artists or genres or whatever special and also repetitive but in a way that we all enjoy one of my favorites is a recent one that she did uh of every lady gaga song hopefully you'll understand why i love it when you listen to this

But yes, she takes, you know, these songs and she distills them to their essence. And she just has a really great way of poking fun at both other artists, but also herself. She has a show called a solo show called Tiger Daughter. I haven't seen, but I imagine it's going to be great.

And she also has a song where she pokes fun at the people on the internet who claim she looks like the comedian Bobby Lee. She's very fun. So that is Charlene K. You should follow her if you just want to have a little bit of joy. And it's at Charlene K. That's what's making me happy.

Thank you very much, Aisha. So what is making me happy is that sometimes you do not want something serious. Sometimes you want something very diverting and you just want to watch Viola Davis play the president. Therefore, I was very delighted recently while spending some time on a plane. I watched the movie G20, which is on Prime, which is basically Die Hard at 10.

G20, if Viola Davis was the president and Anthony Anderson was her husband, is it a great movie? It is not a great movie. Was it exactly what I wanted? It was exactly what I wanted.

She is a lot of fun to watch. She is having a great time. You get to see her do a bunch of action hero stuff, which I think she totally deserves to have the fun of doing. You know, it is one of those things where we have been through four million variations of die hard on a this, die hard on a that, die hard on a whatever. But this one to me is just the perfect non-serious version of

of that idea. Getting to see her

play a president who, you know, she's wearing a gown for this event, but of course, naturally, as things heat up, does she rip off the bottom of the gown and make it into a short dress? Of course she makes it into a short dress. Does she end up carrying a gun? Yeah, she ends up carrying a gun. So that is G20. It is on Prime, and we should note that Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content.

If you want links for what we recommended, plus some additional recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org slash pop culture newsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Mark Rivers, Ronald Young Jr., Aisha Harris, thank you so much for being here to talk about Sinners. Thank you, guys. Thanks for having me. Sinners, thank you. This episode was produced by Hufs of Fathima and edited by Mike Katzeff. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello, Come In provides our theme music.

Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all next week. Don't get bitten by a vampire. Or maybe do. Live forever. This message comes from Sony Pictures Classics, presenting On Swift Horses, starring Daisy Edgar-Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva, and Sasha Kaye. Sparked by the arrival of her husband's brother, Muriel embarks on a secret life, discovering a love she never thought possible. Only in theaters April 25th.

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