The Bear
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The Bear is back. Carmi and Sydney are trying to get the restaurant they opened together on its feet before they run out of money. Richie is thrown by his ex-wife's approaching wedding and what it's going to mean for him. Scallop drama, secret negotiations, and guest stars both returning and newly introduced are all on hand for the fourth season. I'm Linda Holmes, and today we're talking about the new season of The Bear on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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Joining me today is NPR TV critic Eric Deggans. Hello, Eric. Yes, chef. Are you ready, chef? I am ready, chef. Heard. Okay. So when we last saw Carmi, played by Emmy winner Jeremy Allen White, he was swearing at a review of the restaurant, The Bear. In the fourth season, we learned that the review was not so positive. The Trib ate here three times at three different restaurants. The food sounded good. Sometimes, I don't know.

They didn't like the vibe. They didn't like the chaos. And yeah, frankly, I don't know if I do either. This has put pressure on everyone, especially after Uncle Jimmy lets them know that the money he's been providing is going to run out in a couple of months. They need to turn things around in a hurry. Sid needs to figure out what to do about the fact that Chef Adam Shapiro offered her a job at a new place he's opening. And given the chaos that is the bear, she's tempted to take it.

She's played by Iowa Debris. Carmi is still pining for Claire, played by Molly Gordon, who he accidentally broke up with at the end of the second season. Whoops! As for Richie, that's Eben Moss-Bachrach's character. He's sweating the fact that his ex-wife is about to get remarried to a man so nice Richie can't even dislike him, which is awkward. The new season is streaming now on Hulu. Eric...

Before we get started, catch me up on sort of your really where were you with the bear when we left off in the third season? I liked it more, I think, than a lot of critics. I did, too. I did. You know, no matter how middling you may think the actual season is, there are always at least one or two episodes that just kind of.

shake you up and prove what the show could be if it could fire on all cylinders in every episode. But I do think that this season was more consistent and more entertaining overall. I'm with you. I liked the third season more than a lot of people did. And I do think that this season goes back to the core relationships between Carmi, Sydney, and Richie, and to some degree, Natalie. And I think it is...

plugging back into those relationships in a way that I ultimately really liked. And we are, by the way, going to talk about the whole season. So just be aware that we're talking about the whole season. It's been out for a little bit as you hear this. But, you know, in that final episode, in that finale, you really get mostly a single scene with Carmi and Sid and Richie. And it

really reminded me how good those performances are and how deeply developed those characters are and their relationships are. And my feeling about this show sometimes is that I have to stop myself from taking for granted the things I already know are great about it now that I've seen them a bunch of times. I think if you went back and watched

that scene with those performances as a fresh show and you hadn't seen intensity of the Jeremy Allen White performance or the comedy and the

deep feeling of the Eben Moss back rack performance or the way that Io Debris is so believably ambivalent about her relationships with these guys. I think if you came in fresh to those, they'd be so impressive. But now that you know those things, they get maybe a little bit taken for granted. I want to talk a little bit about that wedding episode where Richie's ex-wife, Tiff, played by Gillian Jacobs, who I think is really good in this,

I'm sure it is.

Talk to me a little bit about that wedding episode, because it's a little bit of a mirror to Fishes, the episode that had the whole extended family in season two. But it was all kind of chaotic and terrible and everybody was miserable and yelling at each other. And this is a more joyful family gathering.

And one thing I do want to say about the overall season before we get into that is that it also feels a little bit like a reaction to how people reacted to the previous season. There's less sort of obvious comedy. You know, maybe they were reacting to people refusing to believe it was a comedy and they had more slapsticky kind of obvious comedy. With a fact.

With John Cena. And that felt ham-handed and obvious and like a reaction. And so this season, we don't have that. But to me, there are more funny moments. I agree. And it's much easier to see why they might make the case that it's a comedy. I still don't think it's a comedy. No, I don't either. It makes more sense this season than last, I think. Exactly. And also, you know, you mentioned there's much more conventional storytelling going on here. Because I think they, you know, they got the note from people that...

You know, we understand why you tried that. You're maybe disappearing up your own nose a little bit. It didn't quite work. And let's just get back to, you know, what we really like about these characters.

The wedding episode, I think, is an example of what we really like about these characters. It's their family in one place bouncing off each other. And when they get together, it's like shaking up nitroglycerin. We kind of knew that. But to see it in a family gathering like this, I think was even better than the dinner episode because that dinner episode from previous seasons was fueled by the mental illness of Carmi's mother. Yeah.

Here we get to see Carmi's mother is struggling and has kind of gotten her arms around her dysfunction. Yeah, she's trying.

But you also see, I think also you see more of a mix of the dysfunction and the function. Oh, absolutely. In the family that you also realize how loving these people are towards each other in many, many ways and how this family, as weird as it is, they have also kind of embraced all these other people who are not blood relatives, but who have, um,

toward them because of this energy that they have and the devotion that they have to each other. There is a scene between Gillian Jacobs and Oliver Platt where one thing you kind of wonder at this wedding is like, why is Richie's whole family at his ex-wife's wedding?

And they try to kind of bring some insight to that. Why are they all there? And why is she so close to them? And there's a scene between her and Uncle Jimmy that I just thought was small and relatively short, but really, really lovely. My family's such a mess, you know, and they're all over the place. And I'm, look, they're not even here. I don't have anybody here in the...

You know, you mentioned Carmi's mother, played by Jamie Lee Curtis. There's an episode between, that's mostly Carmi and Dee Dee, his mom, and then there's

And I thought it was beautiful and really moving. So it's like, yeah, the show's uneven. There are things that don't work. I have never been convinced by the relationship with Claire. I don't think that's ever been persuasively interesting to me. I think that character's always been underwritten. I don't particularly like how they ended it. I don't particularly like the note they chose to end on.

But those episodes, like the wedding episode, the episode with Carmi and his mom, the episode where Sidney gets her hair done by her cousin, played by Daniel Deadweiler, of all people. That's another one of those standout episodes where they focus on a character who's not Carmi. In fact, what's interesting to me about

this season is that Carmi is the least interesting character in it. I don't really notice it. I think it helps the show to not hang so much of its narrative juice on his art.

But the thing I wanted to say about the wedding and the family, and ultimately this wedding episode brings home the idea that the bear is a family. All these characters are a family. Well, what I was saying, like sometimes your work family is closer to you than your family family. Oh, well, I mean, sometimes I feel like your work family is like part of your family family though, you know? Like it's one big, I don't know, family family thing.

And what the characters are trying to do in different ways is master their dysfunction enough so that they can live. These characters talk about their feelings in a way that does feel a little unrealistic. These characters are trying, and they understand that communicating with each other is important. But the level to which they achieve that in this season is...

It does feel a little unrealistic and it does feel a little wish fulfillment. But that's what we've always wanted for these characters. We have wanted them to speak to each other and understand each other, you know, however much you like or don't like the ending. And I'm really intrigued by it.

These characters understand each other at the end of it.

She's got it all written down on notepaper, and you can see that she's put a lot of time into trying to process those feelings. She's gotten sober, so you know she's done work. I didn't know how to help him, Carmen. I didn't know what to do. I probably made it worse. I know I did. I know I made it worse. And I know that by saying that I know these things doesn't make it better. It's just, Carmen, my heart's broken.

My heart is just broken. Jeremy Allen White in that long scene doesn't say a whole lot, but the performance is, to me, extraordinary. You can see...

how he is tolerating this conversation with his mother, even though everything in him wants to run away from it. It's very important for both of them to have this conversation. And his mother really needs it and he really needs it. But his instinct is bolt, run. I hate this. I want to tear my hair out. But he sits and kind of

He tolerates and also loves and appreciates this conversation with her. And I thought that that episode, like, he eventually makes her lunch. Yeah, do you want, you know what? I'll make you something. You just sit there. I'll make something nice. What? I'm going to make you something to eat. Okay? Okay.

They could have gone a lot heavier with the experience of her eating the food that he made and everything. They play that relatively light, and I appreciated that. The whole point of that was that he made the food instead of her. That was part of her dysfunction. She would always spin out when she started making food for the family. And it was important for him to make the food. And once we saw that was happening, that was all we needed to see. What was interesting to me about that whole moment was

was that Carmi has talked a lot about breaking patterns.

And so even though he wants to leave, he knows that for him to get better in his own life, he's got to break the pattern of running away from his mother when she does something that looks like it might lead to her spinning out. Everything in this season is about these characters breaking old patterns and learning to connect with each other because they know that's crucial to them surviving.

So when Ayo's character sees this, this is what makes her choose the bear over the other restaurant. Finally, we get the ending in which Karmic decides to step back from the restaurant. And he's facing the ultimate question, which is what if the thing that you are best at is also the thing that is killing you? And we've seen other shows ask that question. But I don't think we ever saw the bear consider the possibility that Karmic would accept that

and act on it to save himself and his family, which I just think is kind of amazing. Yeah, I think that's right. I also think, you know, I mentioned the episode with Sidney and her cousin, and

how happy I was to see Danielle Deadweiler show up in that role because she's wonderful. Oh, yeah. You know they beefs be different. Stop. Stop. I just am an employee, okay? Put some cheese on it. I can't speak to the beef. I won't speak to the beef. Dip it. Keep it wet. Listen, I can't.

I can't have these people come up here and they'll be rioting. And I think what you see in that is partly that Sydney is so fortunate to have people that she genuinely is very at ease with. She's very at ease with the cousin, cousin's daughter. She feels embraced by them. There have always been tensions in her relationship with her dad, but it's not like

And so you really see that Sydney is fortunate enough to come from, I think, an emotional place where even though there's been a lot of hardship, the relationships that she's built are basically healthy, even if there's work that you always have to do with them.

I think you get an interesting look at Sydney. You get a bunch of interesting looks at Carmi. I also really loved the arc of Richie working through the feelings about Frank, about the Josh Hartnett character, because that felt very realistic to me, like that he feels very threatened by this guy who's going to be his daughter's stepfather. You know, Frank is insecure too, and that felt very generous to me that neither one of those guys had to be bad. She and I are supposed to do this cute thing.

Dance like a father-daughter dance. Stepfather-daughter dance. Yeah, see, you are acting goofy. I knew it. You're acting goofy. Your face, it's like... Yo, you gotta put your game face on, G, all right? You can't be showing fear like this. Okay.

I think Richie in some ways is the character to me who has changed the most in the most interesting ways over the course of the show. I think when he went off and worked at Olivia Colman's restaurant and learned so much in what seemed like such a short period of time, I think people felt like, well, that's a little abrupt, whatever. I think they've paid that off over the time since it happened. You've really come to see that

Richie really loves the service that he does, even when it's hard and even when he's frustrated. He really loves doing it in a way that Carmi doesn't feel like he does love the restaurant work. What's so interesting to me about those two characters is that when the bear started, you had this sense that Carmi was the one who was saved by fine dining and devoting himself to perfecting his craft.

And having to deal with his cousin who comes out of nowhere and will not be disciplined is his biggest bane. And then we get to the end of the fourth season and those roles have switched.

We have one character where doing what they're best at is saving them. And we have another character where doing what they're best at is killing them. And we finally realize that. And they both fess up about why they were at each other's throats when they first got together in the very first season. Very rarely in real life do we get to have a conversation with somebody that we have that kind of familial connection to and deep-seated conflict with to resolve it.

I mean, I'm enjoying it. I loved it. But there was also a part of me sort of going, okay, all right. Yeah, I get that. As I said, I think it was easier for me because it seemed, so much of it seemed to be the result of work and thought as opposed to just suddenly became incredibly articulate at talking about my feelings. One thing that I will say is that

you know, chefs and mental health. That's a real thing. And I have a friend named Kat Kinsman who used to have a podcast about this and has done a lot of work around this in the world of sort of chefs and food. And that's a real thing. And I do hope the show has one more season at this

The time that we are taping, we do not know if that's going to happen or not. I do hope before it ends, they are able to take a swing at framing this as something that maybe is an issue where Carmi could use some mental health support in addition to Al-Anon, which we know has been really, really helpful to him. He's had like grief support and things like that. But I think that...

mental health support would be something that at least somebody in his life, whether it was Natalie or Sydney or somebody would say something. Or even his mom. Even his mom would say something about, like, maybe you're depressed, among other things, and it would be good to address that before you make a final decision about quitting your career. But I know that maybe they don't. Maybe this is another realistic thing.

thing that maybe they don't. Maybe those conversations don't happen in those kinds of spaces. And, you know, what's interesting to me, too, is that I think one reason why the TV industry responds to the bear so much is

is that part of the progression of these characters is maybe letting go of the idea that excellence only comes from torturing yourself. Right. Excellence only comes when you feel like crap and you've pushed yourself to the maximum. And you've been horrible to other people as well. Well, yeah, if you're pushing yourself to the maximum. I mean, I think everybody can kind of relate a little bit to resisting the idea that excellence involves

you know, working so hard that you only live your job and you don't enjoy it at all. I do want to mention one last thing that I enjoyed, which is I think that you and I both feel that the use of John Cena last year was sort of a low point for the kind of, it's not that I don't like John Cena because I do. That was the first time. I mean, I really liked the use of all the guest stars and fishes and I've talked about why that was.

But I felt like this was the one where it was like, all right, now you're just being silly. Right. And the same went for the kind of too many real chefs showing up as themselves last season as well. They got away from that. But there's this whole buildup of this character they've talked about before named Francie Fack.

who everybody knows that Natalie and Francie hate each other. Nobody knows exactly why Natalie and Francie hate each other. And as this wedding is approaching, they're talking about Francie coming to the wedding. And you're thinking, who's this going to be? It's going to be somebody, right? And as you're coming up to it, it's like, who is this? Who is this? And then it's Brie Larson. And I think she's terrific in this and really funny. Yeah.

She has great comedic chemistry with Abby Elliott. Oh, yeah. I know what that looks about. I don't like it. You can apologize whenever. You know that? No. No. No what? No. You are so f***ed. Well. Well. Yeah. Well. No. Oh, well. Well. I'm frantic f***ing back. Well. Why?

And all the Brie Larson haters out there, I'm telling you, you've got to stop. I didn't believe it when it started. I thought she's been great in the MCU. I think she's been great in Lessons in Chemistry and other shows. And she knocks it out of the park here. But not just her, you know, cameo. Bob Odenkirk returns as an uncle, quote unquote, and has a really great conversation with Carmen. He told me you made something with ants.

Great scene. Great scene.

I guess this is where I come down on this season. Like I can absolutely find things in here that I, that I don't think work nearly as well. I had issues at the ending. I have issues with Claire. I think having Carmi sort of say he's going to step away from the restaurant, but I don't know whether that's really what they're doing. And it seems like they're still in a point where Sydney's very worried about that. I don't know that it felt resolved to me, but like,

When I look at these 10 episodes, there is so much in these 10 episodes that I think is so, so good. Absolutely. It makes me really glad that they have done this really complex work and made this piece, which, like, if nothing else...

Just, there's so much good acting. Yeah. We want to know what you think about The Bear. Find us at facebook.com slash pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Eric Deggans, thank you so much for being here. It's always wonderful to see you. Yes, chef. Thank you, chef. Heard. Heard.

And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org slash happy hour or visit the link in our show notes.

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Mike Katzeff and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all next time.

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